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The questions on the desk aren't being seperated into days. Is there a bot which does that or is it done by editors? Crisco 1492 01:25, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
[n.b. This thread flows from one on " Finalizing the rules proposal", now archived at Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 18 — Steve Summit ( talk) 13:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
(added after a couple of edit conflicts) Frankly, I don't think we're going to be able to assemble a one-size-fits-all procses to remove comments or impose sanctions. Anything we put together will be too rigid, prone to wikilawyering, and discourage people from using common sense to resolve disputes. I suspect that we're actually taking the wrong approach by trying to discuss a complicated process for removing problem edits when the crux of the issue is problematic behaviour. I expect that if someone makes a habit of making unhelpful or inappropriate remarks on the Desk, other editors will point out why this is a problem—hopefully with specific reference to general Wikipedia policy (especially WP:CIV) or with a specific explanation of how the remarks interfere with the purpose of the Desk. (This is why it's so important to have discussion and general agreement on whether or not I've correctly and clearly described our purpose, principles, and the attendant guidelines.)
I also expect that if an editor considers a remark so egregiously out of place that they immediately remove it, that editor will explain his actions to the original poster of the comment, again with explanation for why it was removed (probably with reference to WP:NPA or severe breaches of WP:CIV). If a remark is removed without good justification, I would be very surprised if the editor who removed it didn't get an earfull. Anyone who edit wars over something like this – whether they're 'right' or 'wrong' – is asking for trouble.
In any case (inappropriate remarks or overzealous removal of comments) I expect that if this informal process of reminders (and if necessary, warnings) doesn't effect a modification of behaviour, there will be intervention by admins. This is how every other dispute resolution process works where one party refuses to cooperate (attempted discussion and informal reminders of policy, warning, admin intervention, and possible arbitration); I don't see a reason for the Ref Desk to reinvent the wheel. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 19:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
(unindent, responding to Steve Summit's query) I guess you could put me in the strong deletionist camp, i supported all the deletions (at least the ones i saw and can recall) and thought they improved the reference desk. None of them individually needed consensus beforehand and none of them should have been reverted. That said, all in combination, and w/ the blocks and all the new faces showing up caused problems. In retrospect there should have been more effort to convince everyone that there was a problem before taking action. It's probably unhelpful now tho keep looking back at past events. If we need to assign some blame for the current difficulties then lets just blame the system and move on eh? EricR 16:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm open to any and all suggestions. What is the most appropriate way to deal with factually incorrect responses, (as well as their insertion into wiki articles on the subject) keeping in mind that the FIRST PILLAR of Wikipedia is that it is above all Encyclopedia, and more particularly, that as an Encyclopedia, according to Wikipedia:Verifiability, factual accuracy is of utmost importance?
The most recent example of this ocurred here: [ [2]] in response to a question asking for the origin of the prefix "step" as in "step-parent".
Apparently I don't seem to be able to deal with these problems in a manner that is acceptable to many other users.
Once again, I'm open to any and all suggestions as to how to better deal with the matter. Loomis 17:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I've added another link to this question, confirming the accuracy of the first definition given. However, people, there is another, more serious issue underlying this whole thread. Please examine the history of the Humanities page. The response by User Looms was conceived as yet another assault on my integrity, by inference, rather than by name. To the original question I flagged up the Wikipedia Stepfamilies page, which, amongst other things, provided the definition I expanded on. User Loomis went to that page, removed the definition without explanation, and then posted some offensive personal remarks on the Humanities page, subsequently removed by User Eric, who advised Loomis of the action taken. I cannot imagine a greater breach of Wikipedia protocol than to airbrush out part of the article and then accuse another user of 'making up' a response. But with Eric's actions I saw no need for me to make further comment on this attempt at manipulation. However, here we are again. The first time User Loomis attacked me I was angry; now I find the whole business wretchedly sad. I can see him pouring over all of my contributions in a spirit of petty spite, looking for weak spots. But User Loomis, it is obvious to me, judging from his spluttering prose, his switches from one extreme to another, his inability to express himself with detachment, his lack of control, is suffering from some deep rooted emotional problem, and I say this with no sense of elation or satisfaction. I would simply ask all those who joined in his previous attempt at a witch-hunt against me to consider this matter in a little more depth. It is sad for me, sad for Wikipedia; but it's saddest of all for Loomis. Clio the Muse 20:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Collins is the Collins English Dictionary, which happens to be the etymological dictionary I have on my desk. There are two separate issues here, which are being muddled. 1. Authorities disagree about the etymology of 'stepchild' and related terms. This is a useful discovery, because it allows us to improve the encyclopedia. More importantly, 2. Loomis is continuing his hate-campaign against Clio. His personal attacks against her on the Humanities reference desk and continuing here are despicable, as is the support he's received from some other reference desk regulars, notably StuRat. They should apologise and withdraw these personal attacks. Clio has been accused, in particularly over-the-top and offensive language, of deliberately giving wrong answers to refdesk questions. There is no evidence whatever for this accusation. And now, when Clio points out Loomis's erratic and aggressive behaviour, we get StuRat warning her about personal attacks! Double standard, much? Yours, Sam Clark 14:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
If the situation is this bad maybe you should create a list of the offending remarks and file a request for comment Wikipedia:Requests for comment. This page is for the reference desk, so why not take this personal dispute somewhere else where it can be sorted out. P.S. have any of you attempted to correct the stepfamily article - as it was originally at fault - I'm no etymology expert. 87.102.4.180 15:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC) You could also try Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee perhaps. 87.102.4.180 15:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to thank all those who have commented on my observations and concerns. It is not my intention to attack or malign anyone. But I now feel that my contributions are being 'stalked' with malevolent purpose. This will not stop me. But I would ask all editors, regardless of how they may feel about me personally, to keep this sorry situation under close scrutiny. Clio the Muse 01:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Honestly, this whole thing is becoming tiresome. At first I was absolutely amazed at Clio's apparent wealth of knowledge. It was actually quite enchanting. Too good to be true, apparently! "Really? I never knew that! You must know so much more than I!" But after a while my suspicions began to rise, until finally, with the whole silly Eli Whitney Cotton Gin thing, my suspicions were raised to the point where I actually bothered to check up on her apparent "facts". I still haven't received one bit of explanation from her explaining to me why she brought Eli Whitney into the discussion. An obvious red hering. (Oh I'm sorry Loomis, I was wrong on that one! :) No such luck. And there are dozens more.
Look, people, I really regret this whole thing. I love Wikipedia because I learn so much from it, and there's nothing I love more than to learn. On the other hand, when I come to the realization that for the past few weeks I've been being fed abolute fiction disguised as fact, I felt, quite understandably I'd say, betrayed. I'm an incredibly curious person and I've come to adore Wikipedia as a source of facts for whatever particular thing I'm curious about.
Yes, I admit it. I indeed "personally attacked" Clio, ONCE, when I said that it seemed as if she had some "pathological intention to mislead". I later apologized for it. In a sense, that's a microcosm of the difference between us. When I'm wrong, I admit it. The comment was inappropriate. I'm big enough of a person, and confident enough in my intelligence to be able to apologize when I'm wrong.
Since then though, I've been subject to the wildest of accusations ranging from a questioning of my mental health, to "stalking", and whatever other vitriol she can come up with. I haven't responded to any of those attacks because I find them so silly as to be unworthy of response. I try to think that I'm bigger than that.
Were you "wrong", Clio, about Eli Whitney? Were you "wrong" about the etymology of the prefix "step"? Were you "wrong" by linking to an article that actually negated you point? Are the words "I'm sorry, I'll try to do better research in the future" not in your vocabulary?
Personally, whenever I quote a source I say "according to X-source, the answer is Y", leaving it up to the questioner to evaluate for him or herself the validity of the source. I never have and never would answer a question so arrogantly by saying "The answer is Y. See X".
On the other hand, if Wikipedia values decorum over truth; that the term "step-" was derived from some nonexistent Middle English word meaning "not related by blood"; that Eli Whitney's Cotton Gin had some sort of mysterious effect on the economics of slavery that would leave the most brilliant of economists scratching their heads; that Queen Elizabeth can commit a tort with utter impunity, and have no de facto price to pay for it; that the noble romantic Edward VIII simply decided of his own free will to abdicate the throne of England, and not because Stanley Baldwin, in the words of Don Corleone, "made him an offer he couldn't refuse"; that Vichy France was not complicit with Nazi Germany, but rather a bona fide "independent neutral" state during WWII; -- in other words, if Wikipedia is indeed NOT an Encyclopedia, but rather a repository for any deceptions, misconceptions, factual innaccuracies and whatever fantasies that its contributors choose to dream up, then honestly, I have no interest in further contributing. If this is indeed the case, then I beg of all of you, please BAN ME.
However, if Wikipedia is indeed everything I had hoped it to be, that is the best Encyclopedia to ever exist, due in large part to its dedication to TRUTH and ACCURACY, then I'd love to stick around.
Clio, I'd love to put this all behind us. I have no interest continuing this senseless feud. If you'd just be big enough of a woman to publicly and explicitly admit that you're but a mere human as I, and that you may have been "wrong" in certain of your "facts", and if you'd only publicly and explicitly commit yourself to being more honest and dilligent in the future in your research before making bald pronunciations of "fact", there's nothing I'd like better than to move on and forget about this silly dispute.
On the other hand, if you stubbornly reject this reality, in favour of insisting that I'm some sort of mentally deranged lunatic out to get you, well, then, I'll have no choice but to continue to scrutinize each and every one of your posts to make sure that what you claim to be fact, is indeed fact.
So here we are, I've tossed the olive branch. Please, Clio, for everybody's sake, pick it up so that we can all finally move on. Loomis 08:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I solicited opinion, and one of the best of them was to back up my position with sources. And so I did. Oxford, Webster's, etymonline.com. Clio was actually kind enough to provide me with yet another, a fourth source agreeing with the previous three, from dictionary.reference.com:
[Origin: ME; OE stéop-; c. G stief-, ON stjūp- step-; akin to OE āstépan to bereave, bestépan to deprive (of children)]
I'm still waiting for this "evidence" from "Collins", that absolute, yet curiously elusive authority on the matter, one that puts the OED, Webster's, etymonline.com and dictionary.reference.com all to shame. Indeed not all issues are "black and white". But c'mon, are four sources still not enough? Would you like another six to make it an even ten?
I removed the portion from the article because it was false. I removed your post because you removed mine (you can remove my posts but I can't remove yours?) I made no demand of public and explicit admissions of "wrongdoing", merely the admission that, like myself, she too can make mistakes. All I'm asking for is a bit of long overdue humility. Scroll up and see. Apparently you disagree, apparently Clio is incapaple of making mistakes. Anything she says is apparently the Gospel truth.
Who was it that was speaking of shades of grey? It's quite ironic actually, but that's a good part of the point I've been trying to get across all along. Maybe you missed what I said above. I never answer questions in an absolute authoritative manner: "The answer is X. Period. -- Next question!" Not only is it extremely obnoxious and arrogant, but worse even, when it's wrong, (as is the case here) it's misleading. Something to be avoided at all costs.
You say I'm making a fool of myself, perhaps, but just for fun, lets sum up the facts:
Apparently not. Nobody really seems to care about actually improving Wikipedia, at least not if it comes at the expense of ego. Better not rock the boat. If in improving the factual accuracy of Wikipedia I couldn't help but bruise Clio's ego, than better not, right? Ego comes first, truth a distant second.
I've been told I'm making a fool of myself, as if that would in some way bother me. Some people just don't realize that for a few of us, it's not all about ego. I know, it may be hard to understand for many others, but I really don't mind being called a fool. Indeed, to a certain extent, I am a fool. I'm aware of my ignorance.
Honestly, when think about it, my accusation that Clio "seems to have a 'pathological intent to mislead'" was, to be fair, over the top on my part. I've apologized for that and I'll apologize once more. She's got no "secret agenda". Nothing of the sort. She's just an obnoxious know-it-all, completely lacking in humility, and utterly incapable of recognizing that she's human. Incapable of recognizing that she makes mistakes just like the rest of us. Incapable of ONCE, just ONCE, EVER, admitting to be wrong about anything. Loomis 04:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't wish to enter into the fracas between Loomis and Clio. But, Loomis, may I say that I can't help noticing that, every time you repeat your apology to Clio you then immediately launch into further invective against her. That doesn't sound like a sincere apology to me. Why not just apologise (if that's what you want to do), then stop; or change the subject. :) JackofOz 04:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
On the original question, one thing that would help reduce inaccurate responses is if people who actually don't know the answer could desist from guessing, or providing their own very often irrelevant perspective. A recent example was the question about Catholic communion received on the tongue, which was answered by a number of people who professed to be Anglicans and who therefore had no knowledge that would have been useful to the questioner. They made no attempt to research the question asked, but answered a question that was not asked. English language questions are often answered with the lamest folk etymology, that would put a real reference desk to shame. Foreign language questions are often answered by people who have little or no knowledge of the language concerned. If you don't know, or can't be bothered finding out, please don't just make it up as you go along. Surely our egos are not so unintegrated that we have to have a shot at every single question. JackofOz 04:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I see this hate-campaign against me continues by the same obsessive user. It was my intention to ignore this altogether, and let others deal with the matter as they saw fit; but once again my sincerity is impugned in the same loathsome fashion. I made a small point about Muslim influences on the Iconoclast movement on the Humanities page, particularly on the policy of the Emperor Leo III, not directly relevant to the point under debate but, I thought, a interesting amplification. The pages on Leo III and Iconoclasm were flagged up not by way of support, but merely to provide context. To the point made on the RD page itself I have now added a source confirming the accuracy of the argument I was trying to make. User Loomis made an observation questioning my contention on the Humanities page, which was quite within order. It is also worthy of note that he is seemingly now more conscious of the embarrassment he causes by his usual mode of discourse, which might best be described as the hysterical rant. But here we are again. He comes to this page to continue with his witch-hunt. Read his latest contribution: it's not my intellectual contentions, my empirical observations, my conjectures that are in question, but my motivations, my very existence, it might be said. In all of my intellectual life I have never come across any more disturbing campaign to personalise argument. I blame myself for ever having engaged with User Loomis in the first place, and I should have recognized the warning signs much earlier than I did: that someone who could make such abject, inappropriate and fawning remarks of devotion at one point (he even told another user that 'I was his'), was quite capable of switching to the opposite extreme at the next. I have already said that I will never, under any circumstances, engage in debate or discussion with User Loomis on any matter whatsoever. But I compelled to stress, yet again, for all editors who are aware of this whole sordid matter, that I am being stalked by an obsessive and petty-minded bully. I am deeply thankful that he does not know me in real life. I expect this campaign to continue in the same relentless way: but, please, I ask all of the reasonable and fair-minded people among this community to approach me directly, or raise a point on the RD page, if you wish any further information on anything I happen to write, rather than accept what this troubled and unhappy man alleges. User Loomis is an embarrassment to me, an embarrassment to Wikipedia; but most of all he is an embarrassment to himself. Clio the Muse 09:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
All recent discussions archived in Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 18 - I'm very aware that there were a number of threads which were active, so please feel free to reinstate the ones which are ongoing and important. -- HappyCamper 04:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I answered a question which I believed to be asking for opinions with my opinion. User:Sam Clark then complained, on the Ref Desk directly, about giving "unsupported opinions". I feel both that opinions are proper in response to questions which solicit an opinion, and that any chastisement of other editors should be done off the Ref Desk. Here is the question and answers: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#Holocaust_guilt. What does everyone else think ? StuRat 18:29, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Sam, I simply don't understand your argument, is it that matters of morality can be decided in some universal and scientific manner, with no opinion involved ? I don't see how. The only defense I could possibly see here is that they were soliciting the opinions of noted academics, not the general public. They didn't actually say that, though, so this is purely an assumption on your part. And, in any case, we want to avoid saying things like "that answer is unhelpful" on the Ref Desk. It's up to the questioner to decide what info is useful to them, not other responders. This type of conflict should be kept off the Ref Desk. StuRat 19:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
If someone asks for other editors' opinions, I don't see the problem with giving them. All experts are welcome to contribute or argue against the other editors. People ask opinion questions because they want to get a wide variety of answers; there are no "right" or "wrong" responses. I know some people think opinion questions shouldn't be allowed, but there's already a lot of discussion and debate going on at the reference desk. This is not a courtroom; do we need to follow "instructions" word by word? Also, opinion questions increase the questioner's knowledge, since he/she now knows many ways to argue a point. As such, they are useful to the questioner, and therefore legitimate questions. -- Bowlhover 16:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I seem to have started a lengthy debate, but I think much of it is muddling two different issues:
1. There’s the interesting, difficult metaethical question of whether morality is anything more than opinion (whether ‘stealing is wrong’ is a different kind of statement from ‘strawberry icecream is yucky’, and how it is, if so). I’ve refused to engage in a debate with StuRat about this question, on the grounds that he doesn’t know enough about the subject for it to be worth my effort or time. Stu calls this an ‘argument from authority’. It’s not, because I haven’t asserted any view at all on the question, let alone insisted that anyone ‘respect my authority’ and accept my view. I’ve just pointed out that the question is controversial, that experts have nuanced, well-supported positions on all sides of it, that Stu doesn’t know anything about the issue, and that I don’t intend to waste my time on that kind of unbalanced debate. In any case, the whole argument is off topic for a talk-page. I take Seejyb's point that perhaps we could have had an interesting conversation about metaethics in response to the question, on the humanities desk; but the last time Stu and I got into a philosophical argument, I don't think it did much good.
2. There’s the issue I was actually meaning to raise: What kind of answers should we be giving to questions which might lead to lengthy and potentially heated exchanges of opinions? The question of holocaust guilt was a particular clear example of this problem. I tried to give the kind of encyclopedic answer I think is appropriate: no statement of my own views; context and links for further investigating how the question could be addressed. StuRat gave a kind of answer which I think we should avoid: ‘well, my opinion is…’, with no supporting reasoning and no links to the encyclopedia or anything else. This would be a perfectly reasonable response in a general chat forum, but this is an encyclopedia. When I challenged Stu on this, he claimed that ‘moral questions are all opinion’, and (by implication) that his answer was therefore the only possible kind of answer that could be given to the question, and was therefore fine. Hence issue 1, above: I pointed out that ‘moral questions are all opinion’, far from being the truism that Stu suggests, is a hugely controversial metaethical position (as Gandalf notes above, it’s a short statement of expressivism; what Gandalf doesn’t note is that expressivism is just one position, and has many significant critics).
I still think that question 2 is important, and that this is the right place to discuss it. I assume that we don’t want the refdesk to turn into Yahoo answers, where any old crap gets posted in answer, and then know-nothings vote for their favourite response (note for the sensitive: I am not implying that this is the current situation, I’m offering an extreme example to make a point clearly). So, we need some kind of guideline for what is and what isn’t an appropriate answer. A number of people have been working on such guidelines, of course, and I largely support them (and appreciate the hard work of everyone involved, especially TenOfAllTrades and StuRat). But my view is:
1. that they currently don’t quite nail the distinction I made above, between an encyclopedic answer and a mere opinion; and
2. that one way to make that distinction is to suggest that if you don’t know anything about a subject, you either shouldn’t post, or you should do some research. This is why I’ve emphasised expertise.
One final attempt to head off some misunderstandings:
1. I haven’t claimed that people can only have one expertise, and I don’t know where anyone got the idea that I have.
2. I haven’t claimed that only professional philosophers can have opinions about moral issues – that would be ridiculous. I have claimed – and I still think – that an encyclopedic response on a moral question requires expertise, not just a moral opinion. The latter are two-a-penny.
3. I haven’t attacked StuRat in any way, so his claims of ‘ad hominem’ are mistaken. There’s nothing shameful about not knowing anything about a particular technical subject; as I pointed out above, I don’t know anything much about computer programming. But nonetheless, both computer programming and philosophy are technical disciplines, and it doesn’t help the refdesk or the encyclopedia as a whole to answer questions when one doesn’t know what one is talking about.
Yours, Sam Clark 21:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's another belated response. I've noticed that we've been focusing on the first half of StuRat's question, and haven't really touched the second.
Reviewing the refdesk post that started the thread, my own impression was that StuRat's first answer in the "Holocaust guilt" thread was marginal: it's not the sort of thing I would have posted, but it's not at all the sort of thing I would complain about, either. (More on this elsewhere.) But with that said, I didn't have a problem with Sam Clark's response, either; it was measured and appropriate. (The only bit of it that seemed to me like it could have been construed as "chastising" was the last clause, "I don't really see the value of unsupported opinion here.") If there weren't such a heightened sensitivity about Reference Desk posting appropriateness lately, I suspect this would have passed without incident.
My own opinion (and this is, for what it's worth, an armchair opinion) is that, in general and when done properly, criticism of Reference Desk appropriateness should be right there on the Reference Desk. That's a fine place for it.
It's important, unquestionably, that any such criticism be constructive, politic, and absolutely not ad-hominem. But if someone politely says, "you know, I think that response was a little on the opinionated/speculative/raucous side, not objective/sourced/reasonably-professional like we agreed we wanted", that seems perfectly appropriate and acceptable to me. (But the word "politely" is very significant, and in this context I would encourage a level of politeness bordering on deferential. It tends to cause at least as much trouble as someone thought they were trying to solve, if they make sharply-worded criticisms like "I can't believe you posted that" or "you're completely wrong" or "that's inappropriate here, you should not have posted that." The thread above about Loomis and Clio is apropos.)
Many if not most aspects of whatever "policy" we might come up with for the Reference Desk are bound to be subjective. They're themselves going to be matters of opinion; the word "reasonable" is always going to figure prominently in the discussion. So we're all individually going to accidentally stray from the bounds of "reasonableness" from time to time, and we're all going to have to do a certain amount of on-going communal attitude checking in order that we retain and evolve our group consensus on what is and isn't reasonable.
So, gentle constructive criticism seems to me not only to be not a problem, but to be a good and necessary thing. Furthermore, it seems to me that right there on the Reference Desk is the place for it, not hidden on a talk page. It belongs right there on the Reference Desk because that's where everyone will see it, and we do want everyone -- questioners, answerers, and lurkers -- to remain aware of the issues.
It can be argued that metadiscussion should be shunted to a Talk page (this one, I guess), but I'm afraid that too many people will miss it. Pages like the Reference Desk and Village Pump are already essentially talk pages, so it's somewhat surprising that they have their own, separate, talk pages at all. I suspect I'm not the only one who rarely looks at the "true" talk pages.
Anyway, that's my two cents, so to speak. -- Steve Summit ( talk) 01:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
[A final comment on the exchange with StuRat, because the above is getting too multilayered to follow]. Stu: in other words, the answers to my questions above are: 1. no, you don't know anything about philosophy, but you're unwilling to write the words 'I do not know about X'; and 2. no, you plan to continue to skim, to respond to trivial points rather than addressing the main issue, to insist on finding verbal fallacies where none exist, to reply to what you imagine I implied instead of what's there on the page, to nitpick and point-score and grandstand. You plan to continue to bolster your heroic self-image as challenging 'pompous academics' with arguments they don't dare face. But Stu, I have news for you: you haven't actually made any arguments. You've asserted that 'moral questions are all opinion' and that 'only claims verified by the scientific method are facts', just as so many of my first-year students do. You haven't given the slightest support for those claims, or even shown any awareness of what they might mean in detail or of what the alternatives are. Well, fine, you're not one of my students, and I don't have any obligation to help you sort out your intellectual confusions. Nor do you have any obligation to listen to me, and you've shown no ability or desire to do so anyway. So: let's just stop talking. Carry right on offering your ignorant opinions in response to whatever questions you fancy. I've lost interest in the whole business, to be honest. Sam Clark 13:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Template:Strict has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. -- SCZenz 21:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
What is going on here: A lot of work was done (in large part by StuRat) in developing two pages; /rules and /guideline. There was accusation of POV-forking. Then TenOfAllTrades developed a draft based in the previous work and discussions. There was consensus that that draft would be an appropriate continuation. To that end, and to prevent discussion of the same topic, proposed RD policy, taking place in multiple locations, I am bringing it all here. The /rule and /guideline are archived there for reference only. Please do not edit those. The Ten draft can and should be edited.
Please discuss edits HERE, on the regular RD talk page. -- Justanother 16:03, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I tried to fix the page move, by moving it to Wikipedia:Reference desk/Proposed policy for the reference desk. Why this name is better than the old one still eludes me. We don't name it "proposed policy" - that's a stage it might go thru, not the name of a page. However the old name is still there, so I think an admin will have to fix this, since we need to move the corresponding talk page also and there's a page in the way. Ned Wilbury 16:47, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Once again: There is support for what I did. I did not invent this. Please review Wikipedia:Subpages re: placing drafts on subs of talk pages. The name is irrelevant - this is a draft! -- Justanother 16:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Can you give me the specific statement that indicates that I erred? My way clearly shows that this is NOT policy and that is the intent of subbing off talk pages. -- Justanother 17:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)From "Allowed Uses" - Temporary subpages in Talk namespace, usually formatted Talk:Example Article/Temp, for example the kind of "/Temp" pages that can be created from Template:Copyvio. But avoid additional incoming and outward links that would make it appear as if this "/Temp" page is part of the encyclopedia: that is, in the case the Copyvio template is used, only this template, applied in article namespace, can link to the "/Temp" article from article or "main" namespace. See below Disallowed uses for further recommendations on how to avoid creating the impression a "/Temp" page is an encyclopedia page.
"The Wikipedia reference desk works like a library reference desk." - surely that is enough guidance - see Library reference desk it's very enlightening. Note that librarians are not there to "put in their 2 cents". 87.102.13.235 16:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I added this comment, which showed up in the history but not on the page: [9].
Then I added it again here: [10].
What's going on here ? Why didn't it "take" the first time I added it ? StuRat 19:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, this is where we can work on a proposed policy/guideline and the associated talk is where we can discuss it. Below is the intro:
What is going on here: A lot of work was done (in large part by StuRat) in developing two pages; /rules and /guideline. There was accusation of POV-forking. Then TenOfAllTrades developed a draft based in the previous work and discussions. There was consensus that that draft would be an appropriate continuation. To that end, and to prevent discussion of the same topic, proposed RD policy, taking place in multiple locations, I am bringing it all here. The /rule and /guideline are archived here for reference only. Please do not edit those. The Ten draft can and should be edited.
Please discuss edits only on the associated talk page, Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/guidelines. -- Justanother 15:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
The only thing that need be done now is a merge of the /purpose page to another archived section in /guidelines. Feel free please. -- Justanother 21:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
For those of you who may wish a non-strict or regular answer there is now the regular template (append {{regular}}) to get the regular answer that you have been receiving for quite a while now. This may become the default response at some future time but in the meantime feel free to add this {{regular}}template request or nothing at all to receive a regular response. -- hydnjo talk 22:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Looks like hydnjo is on a WP:POINT crusade here. A template that huge is obviously useless, and it also uses the abbrev "OP", which we've had pretty strong agreement should never be used (because the OP doesn't know what an OP is). StuRat 01:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
How about a {{no wankers}} template? 83.100.250.252 13:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Like: {{This post/thread has been proposed for deletion in accordance with the RD guidelines}}-- Light current 15:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
"Bear in mind that telling somebody their post is inappropriate and/or removing it, is almost certain to cause offense. Our goal should be to minimize total offense. Therefore, when dealing with a comment that "might, possibly, be offensive to somebody" versus a removal that is certain to be offensive to the author, the goal of minimizing total offense would normally indicate that the post should be left in. If, on the other hand, the post has definitely offended multiple people, then the goal of minimizing offense is best served by removing the post. However, the author should still be notified, in this case, that's just basic courtesy." StuRat 17:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Why is stuff disappearing off the Misc RD? Check this diff out. I had the same thing happen on one of my edits. Here is mine. I was not deleting anything - I was adding a reply. -- Justanother 02:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I had weird missing history earlier tonight... try adding a "purge" command to the url and see if stuff reappears, it worked for me. See this link for an example of the syntax. What it does is forces Wikipedia to drop the cached version of the page and go back to the database. -- SCZenz 08:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
... I thought it might be useful if we all sat down and said what we want the Reference Desk to be like. I'll go first:
Of course the second point is a terrible can of worms to analyze -- so I won't even try to. I'm just acknowleding that it is indeed a can of worms. Cheers. Vranak 16:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
A discussion about the proposed rules/guidelines is now underway here: Wikipedia:Reference desk/guidelines. Please join us and give your opinions. StuRat 20:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Please comment on that talk page, not here. StuRat 22:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed something I thought was hopelessly off-topic, but it was restored. Bringing it up here for further input. My opinion was that, while sad, there's nothing the reference desk can do about this. Friday (talk) 20:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Start here: KDAF -- Justanother 20:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
The point is that we figure out what is being asked and, if appropriate, we answer. I still do not see this as, in any way, an inappropriate question deserving of a callous deletion. -- Justanother 21:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I have just removed two comments that replied to the question at Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#Swallowed_shampoo; the comments are quoted below.
Before now, I don't believe I've ever removed any comment from the Ref Desk before bar obvious trolling or vandalism. I believe that in this case my removal was justified because the comments gave what amounts to medical advice, to a minor, about an emergent medical condition. I have notified the editors of my reasoning.
If someone thinks I've overstepped, then do as you will; I'm going to be offline for the next little bit, and won't be able to follow this discussion. Please discuss before starting an edit war on the Ref Desk page, however. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 23:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there a generally accepted response to questions like this? 68.39.174.238 13:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I have seen a massive uptick in answers where people (typically ref-desk regulars) just make stuff up that sounds right. One question about the ease of making narcotics was answered by using supply and demand as a signal for ease of creation (not accurate), and recently a question about Japaneese TV was answered with what appears to be someone's assumptions, as likley to be true as not. Can I request that people not just make stuff up? Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The average number of hairs in a typical eyebrow, if or how the count differs for men or women or different hair colors, could most probably be answered by pointing to some clinical studies on the matter. I don't see that redefining the question in the manner you suggest is "speculation", but instead a good way of responding to a poor question. What we shouldn't do tho is state that, for instance, "blonde haired people have thicker hair" w/o some source to back up that claim. If an editor cannot back such a statement up w/ a proper source then why shouldn't they simply remain silent?It is a question of fact, which has an answer independent of what anyone thinks, whether Julius Caesar at the age of twelve had an odd or an even number of hairs on his head. But it is a question impossible to answer with our present methods of historical inquiry. We could speculate about the answer, but our speculations would be worthless.Posner, Richard A. (1998). "The Problematics of Moral and Legal Theory". Harvard Law Review. 111 (7): p. 1645.
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Isnt there a bot that is supposed to assign date headings? This is now 2nd time I have to manually put dates in Misc. I mean if it was usually handled manually I'll just keep adding dates quitely, but if there was a bot it might need looking into... Shinhan 16:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't know why this never occurred to me before. We should notice that the name is "reference desk" rather than "chat desk", "joke desk", or "everyone replies to everything desk". I think this tells us something about what we should be doing here- we should use references. We should point people to information- preferably articles, but other good sources are OK too.
Yes, I understand that there's been a bit of disagreement over this. Perhaps it was all caused by people trying to use a single page for two different purposes? I propose that those editors who want to do something other than answer questions with references should set up shop at Wikipedia:Chat desk or somewhere similiar, and perhaps many of these disagreements will go away. I for one, would keep my nose out of Wikipedia:Chat desk- you'd not find me popping in over there, trying to get people to cut out the chatting. Friday (talk) 16:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I think we need a new version called the "Find it Desk", which strictly answers with references, no commentary allowed. I would be happy to stay off that desk. StuRat 17:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Question:is such and such x? Answer:yes Answer:agree by the way that reminds me of a joke ha ha thats a funny one here's another (fuck the question) ha ha ha I disagree with your answer blah,blah blah oh I see, we can discuss it here - fuck the original question yes i agree Oh and heres a fact that unrelated to the question - I didn't actually read the question and the link I've given isn't an answer but - so what - I haven't noticed. etc.
I believe such things are called 'off topic' - 83.100.158.248 18:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
A small point: Barrier to Entry.
If the Reference Desk appears to be more formal than it actually is, it will discourage people from asking 'undesireable' questions. Hence, calling it a Reference Desk, when there's also a strong chat component, is not altogether unwise.
If people come in, take the trouble to look around, and notice an air of familiarity and informality, then they'll realize that it is a little more than a straight question-and-factual answer type-Reference Desk. Vranak 21:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that these lines be removed from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science#Personal allergy:
The first line, funny though it may be to most people, is potentially offensive to women (and frankly, kind of turns my stomach too). The second line because it doesn't make much sense without the first. And, of course, neither actually contributes to answering the question (which was going quite well otherwise).
I've left a note on Vespine's talk page referring him here. Are there any objections to removing those lines? -- SCZenz 06:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Vespines comment: It's 'off topic' and could be considered offensive. It's certainly no answer and no help to finding an answer. 87.102.4.227 12:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
As of the point of removal, we've had comments from me and Light Current supporting keeping it in, and presumably the author is in favor of that, as well. We only received two comments in favor of removal, from SCZenz and Friday. Vranak's comment didn't seem to be either for or against removal. This hardly seems like a "consensus for removal", and thus, I object to any removal until more voices have been heard and a consensus is formed. StuRat
If a comment such as this needs consensus prior to removal, then when an editor feels the need to make a joke or off-topic comment they should list it here—we'll see if there is consensus for it's addition. EricR 14:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed those comments. I did not, indeed, "demand" removal. I asked for it, but in the end, there was no argument given for why those particular comments improve the reference desk, and I am 100% confident that the first remark is potentially offensive even if not all the above users agree. (The second remark, whose sentiments I agree with, I'm only removing because it would be contextless without the first.) As Friday says, maybe not everyone here would've personally removed them, but surely you can see that there's not much benefit to putting them back. -- SCZenz 16:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
StuRat, I am utterly astounded that you would put these back given the discussion here. Did you first read the discussion here? Do you think that putting these comments back improved the reference desk? Friday (talk) 17:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
OK THis post:
Yeah, they're "allergic", sure they are. Can't imagine why'd they claim that.. ;) Vespine 21:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Reads to me like a sarcastic statement meaning that women cannot in fact be allergic to semen but just say they are for some reason. It could be interpreted as Vespine saying that some women try to avoid sex with men by saying they are allergic to semen. Is that a joke? Its not funny to me, but neither is it offensive. I think SCZ has really had to try hard to glean his meaning from the above words and of course it shows he was thinking along those lines to start with. How does he know Vespine was referrinng to swallowing semen? I didnt/dont-- Light current 20:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
In other words, there hasn't been any sort of censorship at work—SCZenz was very thorough and patient in notifying both the original poster through his talk page and the Desk collectively here. He waited a more than reasonable amount of time for comment.
Why the heck would we want to restore a comment that 1) doesn't help to answer any question, and 2) is potentially highly insulting to any women who read, ask, or answer at the Desk? This isn't a boys' locker room. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 19:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Looks like wikipoint to me. There is no reason at all to restore comments that add nothing to the answer. StuRat, can you just stop this war and concentrate on making ref desk a useful resource. Patrolling the edits to restore 'jokes' is not doing that. You're wasting your own time and going out of your way to piss people off at the same time. It's pretty lame. David D. (Talk) 20:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's a question: given that everyone (I think) agrees that the comment was borderline -- not terribly funny, potentially offensive but not terribly so -- is deleting it the best way to improve the Reference Desk?
We all agree (I think) that we want a high-quality Reference Desk, without excessive off-topic content, "humorous" or otherwise. What if, for borderline cases, we agreed that (a) someone who finds it on the wrong side of that border line is free to, politely, say so, and (b) the original poster promises to not take offense, not cry "censorship", but merely say, "I'm sorry, I'll try to be more considerate next time." Besides avoiding unnecessary contention, this has the added side benefit that others can see the exchange, and adjust their own assessment of what's likely to be found objectionable or otherwise inappropriate. — Steve Summit ( talk) 22:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | → | Archive 25 |
The questions on the desk aren't being seperated into days. Is there a bot which does that or is it done by editors? Crisco 1492 01:25, 24 December 2006 (UTC)
[n.b. This thread flows from one on " Finalizing the rules proposal", now archived at Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 18 — Steve Summit ( talk) 13:58, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
(added after a couple of edit conflicts) Frankly, I don't think we're going to be able to assemble a one-size-fits-all procses to remove comments or impose sanctions. Anything we put together will be too rigid, prone to wikilawyering, and discourage people from using common sense to resolve disputes. I suspect that we're actually taking the wrong approach by trying to discuss a complicated process for removing problem edits when the crux of the issue is problematic behaviour. I expect that if someone makes a habit of making unhelpful or inappropriate remarks on the Desk, other editors will point out why this is a problem—hopefully with specific reference to general Wikipedia policy (especially WP:CIV) or with a specific explanation of how the remarks interfere with the purpose of the Desk. (This is why it's so important to have discussion and general agreement on whether or not I've correctly and clearly described our purpose, principles, and the attendant guidelines.)
I also expect that if an editor considers a remark so egregiously out of place that they immediately remove it, that editor will explain his actions to the original poster of the comment, again with explanation for why it was removed (probably with reference to WP:NPA or severe breaches of WP:CIV). If a remark is removed without good justification, I would be very surprised if the editor who removed it didn't get an earfull. Anyone who edit wars over something like this – whether they're 'right' or 'wrong' – is asking for trouble.
In any case (inappropriate remarks or overzealous removal of comments) I expect that if this informal process of reminders (and if necessary, warnings) doesn't effect a modification of behaviour, there will be intervention by admins. This is how every other dispute resolution process works where one party refuses to cooperate (attempted discussion and informal reminders of policy, warning, admin intervention, and possible arbitration); I don't see a reason for the Ref Desk to reinvent the wheel. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 19:18, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
(unindent, responding to Steve Summit's query) I guess you could put me in the strong deletionist camp, i supported all the deletions (at least the ones i saw and can recall) and thought they improved the reference desk. None of them individually needed consensus beforehand and none of them should have been reverted. That said, all in combination, and w/ the blocks and all the new faces showing up caused problems. In retrospect there should have been more effort to convince everyone that there was a problem before taking action. It's probably unhelpful now tho keep looking back at past events. If we need to assign some blame for the current difficulties then lets just blame the system and move on eh? EricR 16:23, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I'm open to any and all suggestions. What is the most appropriate way to deal with factually incorrect responses, (as well as their insertion into wiki articles on the subject) keeping in mind that the FIRST PILLAR of Wikipedia is that it is above all Encyclopedia, and more particularly, that as an Encyclopedia, according to Wikipedia:Verifiability, factual accuracy is of utmost importance?
The most recent example of this ocurred here: [ [2]] in response to a question asking for the origin of the prefix "step" as in "step-parent".
Apparently I don't seem to be able to deal with these problems in a manner that is acceptable to many other users.
Once again, I'm open to any and all suggestions as to how to better deal with the matter. Loomis 17:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I've added another link to this question, confirming the accuracy of the first definition given. However, people, there is another, more serious issue underlying this whole thread. Please examine the history of the Humanities page. The response by User Looms was conceived as yet another assault on my integrity, by inference, rather than by name. To the original question I flagged up the Wikipedia Stepfamilies page, which, amongst other things, provided the definition I expanded on. User Loomis went to that page, removed the definition without explanation, and then posted some offensive personal remarks on the Humanities page, subsequently removed by User Eric, who advised Loomis of the action taken. I cannot imagine a greater breach of Wikipedia protocol than to airbrush out part of the article and then accuse another user of 'making up' a response. But with Eric's actions I saw no need for me to make further comment on this attempt at manipulation. However, here we are again. The first time User Loomis attacked me I was angry; now I find the whole business wretchedly sad. I can see him pouring over all of my contributions in a spirit of petty spite, looking for weak spots. But User Loomis, it is obvious to me, judging from his spluttering prose, his switches from one extreme to another, his inability to express himself with detachment, his lack of control, is suffering from some deep rooted emotional problem, and I say this with no sense of elation or satisfaction. I would simply ask all those who joined in his previous attempt at a witch-hunt against me to consider this matter in a little more depth. It is sad for me, sad for Wikipedia; but it's saddest of all for Loomis. Clio the Muse 20:38, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
Collins is the Collins English Dictionary, which happens to be the etymological dictionary I have on my desk. There are two separate issues here, which are being muddled. 1. Authorities disagree about the etymology of 'stepchild' and related terms. This is a useful discovery, because it allows us to improve the encyclopedia. More importantly, 2. Loomis is continuing his hate-campaign against Clio. His personal attacks against her on the Humanities reference desk and continuing here are despicable, as is the support he's received from some other reference desk regulars, notably StuRat. They should apologise and withdraw these personal attacks. Clio has been accused, in particularly over-the-top and offensive language, of deliberately giving wrong answers to refdesk questions. There is no evidence whatever for this accusation. And now, when Clio points out Loomis's erratic and aggressive behaviour, we get StuRat warning her about personal attacks! Double standard, much? Yours, Sam Clark 14:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
If the situation is this bad maybe you should create a list of the offending remarks and file a request for comment Wikipedia:Requests for comment. This page is for the reference desk, so why not take this personal dispute somewhere else where it can be sorted out. P.S. have any of you attempted to correct the stepfamily article - as it was originally at fault - I'm no etymology expert. 87.102.4.180 15:10, 16 December 2006 (UTC) You could also try Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee perhaps. 87.102.4.180 15:12, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I would like to thank all those who have commented on my observations and concerns. It is not my intention to attack or malign anyone. But I now feel that my contributions are being 'stalked' with malevolent purpose. This will not stop me. But I would ask all editors, regardless of how they may feel about me personally, to keep this sorry situation under close scrutiny. Clio the Muse 01:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Honestly, this whole thing is becoming tiresome. At first I was absolutely amazed at Clio's apparent wealth of knowledge. It was actually quite enchanting. Too good to be true, apparently! "Really? I never knew that! You must know so much more than I!" But after a while my suspicions began to rise, until finally, with the whole silly Eli Whitney Cotton Gin thing, my suspicions were raised to the point where I actually bothered to check up on her apparent "facts". I still haven't received one bit of explanation from her explaining to me why she brought Eli Whitney into the discussion. An obvious red hering. (Oh I'm sorry Loomis, I was wrong on that one! :) No such luck. And there are dozens more.
Look, people, I really regret this whole thing. I love Wikipedia because I learn so much from it, and there's nothing I love more than to learn. On the other hand, when I come to the realization that for the past few weeks I've been being fed abolute fiction disguised as fact, I felt, quite understandably I'd say, betrayed. I'm an incredibly curious person and I've come to adore Wikipedia as a source of facts for whatever particular thing I'm curious about.
Yes, I admit it. I indeed "personally attacked" Clio, ONCE, when I said that it seemed as if she had some "pathological intention to mislead". I later apologized for it. In a sense, that's a microcosm of the difference between us. When I'm wrong, I admit it. The comment was inappropriate. I'm big enough of a person, and confident enough in my intelligence to be able to apologize when I'm wrong.
Since then though, I've been subject to the wildest of accusations ranging from a questioning of my mental health, to "stalking", and whatever other vitriol she can come up with. I haven't responded to any of those attacks because I find them so silly as to be unworthy of response. I try to think that I'm bigger than that.
Were you "wrong", Clio, about Eli Whitney? Were you "wrong" about the etymology of the prefix "step"? Were you "wrong" by linking to an article that actually negated you point? Are the words "I'm sorry, I'll try to do better research in the future" not in your vocabulary?
Personally, whenever I quote a source I say "according to X-source, the answer is Y", leaving it up to the questioner to evaluate for him or herself the validity of the source. I never have and never would answer a question so arrogantly by saying "The answer is Y. See X".
On the other hand, if Wikipedia values decorum over truth; that the term "step-" was derived from some nonexistent Middle English word meaning "not related by blood"; that Eli Whitney's Cotton Gin had some sort of mysterious effect on the economics of slavery that would leave the most brilliant of economists scratching their heads; that Queen Elizabeth can commit a tort with utter impunity, and have no de facto price to pay for it; that the noble romantic Edward VIII simply decided of his own free will to abdicate the throne of England, and not because Stanley Baldwin, in the words of Don Corleone, "made him an offer he couldn't refuse"; that Vichy France was not complicit with Nazi Germany, but rather a bona fide "independent neutral" state during WWII; -- in other words, if Wikipedia is indeed NOT an Encyclopedia, but rather a repository for any deceptions, misconceptions, factual innaccuracies and whatever fantasies that its contributors choose to dream up, then honestly, I have no interest in further contributing. If this is indeed the case, then I beg of all of you, please BAN ME.
However, if Wikipedia is indeed everything I had hoped it to be, that is the best Encyclopedia to ever exist, due in large part to its dedication to TRUTH and ACCURACY, then I'd love to stick around.
Clio, I'd love to put this all behind us. I have no interest continuing this senseless feud. If you'd just be big enough of a woman to publicly and explicitly admit that you're but a mere human as I, and that you may have been "wrong" in certain of your "facts", and if you'd only publicly and explicitly commit yourself to being more honest and dilligent in the future in your research before making bald pronunciations of "fact", there's nothing I'd like better than to move on and forget about this silly dispute.
On the other hand, if you stubbornly reject this reality, in favour of insisting that I'm some sort of mentally deranged lunatic out to get you, well, then, I'll have no choice but to continue to scrutinize each and every one of your posts to make sure that what you claim to be fact, is indeed fact.
So here we are, I've tossed the olive branch. Please, Clio, for everybody's sake, pick it up so that we can all finally move on. Loomis 08:00, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I solicited opinion, and one of the best of them was to back up my position with sources. And so I did. Oxford, Webster's, etymonline.com. Clio was actually kind enough to provide me with yet another, a fourth source agreeing with the previous three, from dictionary.reference.com:
[Origin: ME; OE stéop-; c. G stief-, ON stjūp- step-; akin to OE āstépan to bereave, bestépan to deprive (of children)]
I'm still waiting for this "evidence" from "Collins", that absolute, yet curiously elusive authority on the matter, one that puts the OED, Webster's, etymonline.com and dictionary.reference.com all to shame. Indeed not all issues are "black and white". But c'mon, are four sources still not enough? Would you like another six to make it an even ten?
I removed the portion from the article because it was false. I removed your post because you removed mine (you can remove my posts but I can't remove yours?) I made no demand of public and explicit admissions of "wrongdoing", merely the admission that, like myself, she too can make mistakes. All I'm asking for is a bit of long overdue humility. Scroll up and see. Apparently you disagree, apparently Clio is incapaple of making mistakes. Anything she says is apparently the Gospel truth.
Who was it that was speaking of shades of grey? It's quite ironic actually, but that's a good part of the point I've been trying to get across all along. Maybe you missed what I said above. I never answer questions in an absolute authoritative manner: "The answer is X. Period. -- Next question!" Not only is it extremely obnoxious and arrogant, but worse even, when it's wrong, (as is the case here) it's misleading. Something to be avoided at all costs.
You say I'm making a fool of myself, perhaps, but just for fun, lets sum up the facts:
Apparently not. Nobody really seems to care about actually improving Wikipedia, at least not if it comes at the expense of ego. Better not rock the boat. If in improving the factual accuracy of Wikipedia I couldn't help but bruise Clio's ego, than better not, right? Ego comes first, truth a distant second.
I've been told I'm making a fool of myself, as if that would in some way bother me. Some people just don't realize that for a few of us, it's not all about ego. I know, it may be hard to understand for many others, but I really don't mind being called a fool. Indeed, to a certain extent, I am a fool. I'm aware of my ignorance.
Honestly, when think about it, my accusation that Clio "seems to have a 'pathological intent to mislead'" was, to be fair, over the top on my part. I've apologized for that and I'll apologize once more. She's got no "secret agenda". Nothing of the sort. She's just an obnoxious know-it-all, completely lacking in humility, and utterly incapable of recognizing that she's human. Incapable of recognizing that she makes mistakes just like the rest of us. Incapable of ONCE, just ONCE, EVER, admitting to be wrong about anything. Loomis 04:04, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't wish to enter into the fracas between Loomis and Clio. But, Loomis, may I say that I can't help noticing that, every time you repeat your apology to Clio you then immediately launch into further invective against her. That doesn't sound like a sincere apology to me. Why not just apologise (if that's what you want to do), then stop; or change the subject. :) JackofOz 04:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
On the original question, one thing that would help reduce inaccurate responses is if people who actually don't know the answer could desist from guessing, or providing their own very often irrelevant perspective. A recent example was the question about Catholic communion received on the tongue, which was answered by a number of people who professed to be Anglicans and who therefore had no knowledge that would have been useful to the questioner. They made no attempt to research the question asked, but answered a question that was not asked. English language questions are often answered with the lamest folk etymology, that would put a real reference desk to shame. Foreign language questions are often answered by people who have little or no knowledge of the language concerned. If you don't know, or can't be bothered finding out, please don't just make it up as you go along. Surely our egos are not so unintegrated that we have to have a shot at every single question. JackofOz 04:13, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I see this hate-campaign against me continues by the same obsessive user. It was my intention to ignore this altogether, and let others deal with the matter as they saw fit; but once again my sincerity is impugned in the same loathsome fashion. I made a small point about Muslim influences on the Iconoclast movement on the Humanities page, particularly on the policy of the Emperor Leo III, not directly relevant to the point under debate but, I thought, a interesting amplification. The pages on Leo III and Iconoclasm were flagged up not by way of support, but merely to provide context. To the point made on the RD page itself I have now added a source confirming the accuracy of the argument I was trying to make. User Loomis made an observation questioning my contention on the Humanities page, which was quite within order. It is also worthy of note that he is seemingly now more conscious of the embarrassment he causes by his usual mode of discourse, which might best be described as the hysterical rant. But here we are again. He comes to this page to continue with his witch-hunt. Read his latest contribution: it's not my intellectual contentions, my empirical observations, my conjectures that are in question, but my motivations, my very existence, it might be said. In all of my intellectual life I have never come across any more disturbing campaign to personalise argument. I blame myself for ever having engaged with User Loomis in the first place, and I should have recognized the warning signs much earlier than I did: that someone who could make such abject, inappropriate and fawning remarks of devotion at one point (he even told another user that 'I was his'), was quite capable of switching to the opposite extreme at the next. I have already said that I will never, under any circumstances, engage in debate or discussion with User Loomis on any matter whatsoever. But I compelled to stress, yet again, for all editors who are aware of this whole sordid matter, that I am being stalked by an obsessive and petty-minded bully. I am deeply thankful that he does not know me in real life. I expect this campaign to continue in the same relentless way: but, please, I ask all of the reasonable and fair-minded people among this community to approach me directly, or raise a point on the RD page, if you wish any further information on anything I happen to write, rather than accept what this troubled and unhappy man alleges. User Loomis is an embarrassment to me, an embarrassment to Wikipedia; but most of all he is an embarrassment to himself. Clio the Muse 09:44, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
All recent discussions archived in Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/Archive 18 - I'm very aware that there were a number of threads which were active, so please feel free to reinstate the ones which are ongoing and important. -- HappyCamper 04:53, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
I answered a question which I believed to be asking for opinions with my opinion. User:Sam Clark then complained, on the Ref Desk directly, about giving "unsupported opinions". I feel both that opinions are proper in response to questions which solicit an opinion, and that any chastisement of other editors should be done off the Ref Desk. Here is the question and answers: Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#Holocaust_guilt. What does everyone else think ? StuRat 18:29, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
Sam, I simply don't understand your argument, is it that matters of morality can be decided in some universal and scientific manner, with no opinion involved ? I don't see how. The only defense I could possibly see here is that they were soliciting the opinions of noted academics, not the general public. They didn't actually say that, though, so this is purely an assumption on your part. And, in any case, we want to avoid saying things like "that answer is unhelpful" on the Ref Desk. It's up to the questioner to decide what info is useful to them, not other responders. This type of conflict should be kept off the Ref Desk. StuRat 19:15, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
If someone asks for other editors' opinions, I don't see the problem with giving them. All experts are welcome to contribute or argue against the other editors. People ask opinion questions because they want to get a wide variety of answers; there are no "right" or "wrong" responses. I know some people think opinion questions shouldn't be allowed, but there's already a lot of discussion and debate going on at the reference desk. This is not a courtroom; do we need to follow "instructions" word by word? Also, opinion questions increase the questioner's knowledge, since he/she now knows many ways to argue a point. As such, they are useful to the questioner, and therefore legitimate questions. -- Bowlhover 16:54, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I seem to have started a lengthy debate, but I think much of it is muddling two different issues:
1. There’s the interesting, difficult metaethical question of whether morality is anything more than opinion (whether ‘stealing is wrong’ is a different kind of statement from ‘strawberry icecream is yucky’, and how it is, if so). I’ve refused to engage in a debate with StuRat about this question, on the grounds that he doesn’t know enough about the subject for it to be worth my effort or time. Stu calls this an ‘argument from authority’. It’s not, because I haven’t asserted any view at all on the question, let alone insisted that anyone ‘respect my authority’ and accept my view. I’ve just pointed out that the question is controversial, that experts have nuanced, well-supported positions on all sides of it, that Stu doesn’t know anything about the issue, and that I don’t intend to waste my time on that kind of unbalanced debate. In any case, the whole argument is off topic for a talk-page. I take Seejyb's point that perhaps we could have had an interesting conversation about metaethics in response to the question, on the humanities desk; but the last time Stu and I got into a philosophical argument, I don't think it did much good.
2. There’s the issue I was actually meaning to raise: What kind of answers should we be giving to questions which might lead to lengthy and potentially heated exchanges of opinions? The question of holocaust guilt was a particular clear example of this problem. I tried to give the kind of encyclopedic answer I think is appropriate: no statement of my own views; context and links for further investigating how the question could be addressed. StuRat gave a kind of answer which I think we should avoid: ‘well, my opinion is…’, with no supporting reasoning and no links to the encyclopedia or anything else. This would be a perfectly reasonable response in a general chat forum, but this is an encyclopedia. When I challenged Stu on this, he claimed that ‘moral questions are all opinion’, and (by implication) that his answer was therefore the only possible kind of answer that could be given to the question, and was therefore fine. Hence issue 1, above: I pointed out that ‘moral questions are all opinion’, far from being the truism that Stu suggests, is a hugely controversial metaethical position (as Gandalf notes above, it’s a short statement of expressivism; what Gandalf doesn’t note is that expressivism is just one position, and has many significant critics).
I still think that question 2 is important, and that this is the right place to discuss it. I assume that we don’t want the refdesk to turn into Yahoo answers, where any old crap gets posted in answer, and then know-nothings vote for their favourite response (note for the sensitive: I am not implying that this is the current situation, I’m offering an extreme example to make a point clearly). So, we need some kind of guideline for what is and what isn’t an appropriate answer. A number of people have been working on such guidelines, of course, and I largely support them (and appreciate the hard work of everyone involved, especially TenOfAllTrades and StuRat). But my view is:
1. that they currently don’t quite nail the distinction I made above, between an encyclopedic answer and a mere opinion; and
2. that one way to make that distinction is to suggest that if you don’t know anything about a subject, you either shouldn’t post, or you should do some research. This is why I’ve emphasised expertise.
One final attempt to head off some misunderstandings:
1. I haven’t claimed that people can only have one expertise, and I don’t know where anyone got the idea that I have.
2. I haven’t claimed that only professional philosophers can have opinions about moral issues – that would be ridiculous. I have claimed – and I still think – that an encyclopedic response on a moral question requires expertise, not just a moral opinion. The latter are two-a-penny.
3. I haven’t attacked StuRat in any way, so his claims of ‘ad hominem’ are mistaken. There’s nothing shameful about not knowing anything about a particular technical subject; as I pointed out above, I don’t know anything much about computer programming. But nonetheless, both computer programming and philosophy are technical disciplines, and it doesn’t help the refdesk or the encyclopedia as a whole to answer questions when one doesn’t know what one is talking about.
Yours, Sam Clark 21:35, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's another belated response. I've noticed that we've been focusing on the first half of StuRat's question, and haven't really touched the second.
Reviewing the refdesk post that started the thread, my own impression was that StuRat's first answer in the "Holocaust guilt" thread was marginal: it's not the sort of thing I would have posted, but it's not at all the sort of thing I would complain about, either. (More on this elsewhere.) But with that said, I didn't have a problem with Sam Clark's response, either; it was measured and appropriate. (The only bit of it that seemed to me like it could have been construed as "chastising" was the last clause, "I don't really see the value of unsupported opinion here.") If there weren't such a heightened sensitivity about Reference Desk posting appropriateness lately, I suspect this would have passed without incident.
My own opinion (and this is, for what it's worth, an armchair opinion) is that, in general and when done properly, criticism of Reference Desk appropriateness should be right there on the Reference Desk. That's a fine place for it.
It's important, unquestionably, that any such criticism be constructive, politic, and absolutely not ad-hominem. But if someone politely says, "you know, I think that response was a little on the opinionated/speculative/raucous side, not objective/sourced/reasonably-professional like we agreed we wanted", that seems perfectly appropriate and acceptable to me. (But the word "politely" is very significant, and in this context I would encourage a level of politeness bordering on deferential. It tends to cause at least as much trouble as someone thought they were trying to solve, if they make sharply-worded criticisms like "I can't believe you posted that" or "you're completely wrong" or "that's inappropriate here, you should not have posted that." The thread above about Loomis and Clio is apropos.)
Many if not most aspects of whatever "policy" we might come up with for the Reference Desk are bound to be subjective. They're themselves going to be matters of opinion; the word "reasonable" is always going to figure prominently in the discussion. So we're all individually going to accidentally stray from the bounds of "reasonableness" from time to time, and we're all going to have to do a certain amount of on-going communal attitude checking in order that we retain and evolve our group consensus on what is and isn't reasonable.
So, gentle constructive criticism seems to me not only to be not a problem, but to be a good and necessary thing. Furthermore, it seems to me that right there on the Reference Desk is the place for it, not hidden on a talk page. It belongs right there on the Reference Desk because that's where everyone will see it, and we do want everyone -- questioners, answerers, and lurkers -- to remain aware of the issues.
It can be argued that metadiscussion should be shunted to a Talk page (this one, I guess), but I'm afraid that too many people will miss it. Pages like the Reference Desk and Village Pump are already essentially talk pages, so it's somewhat surprising that they have their own, separate, talk pages at all. I suspect I'm not the only one who rarely looks at the "true" talk pages.
Anyway, that's my two cents, so to speak. -- Steve Summit ( talk) 01:44, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
[A final comment on the exchange with StuRat, because the above is getting too multilayered to follow]. Stu: in other words, the answers to my questions above are: 1. no, you don't know anything about philosophy, but you're unwilling to write the words 'I do not know about X'; and 2. no, you plan to continue to skim, to respond to trivial points rather than addressing the main issue, to insist on finding verbal fallacies where none exist, to reply to what you imagine I implied instead of what's there on the page, to nitpick and point-score and grandstand. You plan to continue to bolster your heroic self-image as challenging 'pompous academics' with arguments they don't dare face. But Stu, I have news for you: you haven't actually made any arguments. You've asserted that 'moral questions are all opinion' and that 'only claims verified by the scientific method are facts', just as so many of my first-year students do. You haven't given the slightest support for those claims, or even shown any awareness of what they might mean in detail or of what the alternatives are. Well, fine, you're not one of my students, and I don't have any obligation to help you sort out your intellectual confusions. Nor do you have any obligation to listen to me, and you've shown no ability or desire to do so anyway. So: let's just stop talking. Carry right on offering your ignorant opinions in response to whatever questions you fancy. I've lost interest in the whole business, to be honest. Sam Clark 13:00, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Template:Strict has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. -- SCZenz 21:16, 16 December 2006 (UTC)
What is going on here: A lot of work was done (in large part by StuRat) in developing two pages; /rules and /guideline. There was accusation of POV-forking. Then TenOfAllTrades developed a draft based in the previous work and discussions. There was consensus that that draft would be an appropriate continuation. To that end, and to prevent discussion of the same topic, proposed RD policy, taking place in multiple locations, I am bringing it all here. The /rule and /guideline are archived there for reference only. Please do not edit those. The Ten draft can and should be edited.
Please discuss edits HERE, on the regular RD talk page. -- Justanother 16:03, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I tried to fix the page move, by moving it to Wikipedia:Reference desk/Proposed policy for the reference desk. Why this name is better than the old one still eludes me. We don't name it "proposed policy" - that's a stage it might go thru, not the name of a page. However the old name is still there, so I think an admin will have to fix this, since we need to move the corresponding talk page also and there's a page in the way. Ned Wilbury 16:47, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Once again: There is support for what I did. I did not invent this. Please review Wikipedia:Subpages re: placing drafts on subs of talk pages. The name is irrelevant - this is a draft! -- Justanother 16:55, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Can you give me the specific statement that indicates that I erred? My way clearly shows that this is NOT policy and that is the intent of subbing off talk pages. -- Justanother 17:12, 17 December 2006 (UTC)From "Allowed Uses" - Temporary subpages in Talk namespace, usually formatted Talk:Example Article/Temp, for example the kind of "/Temp" pages that can be created from Template:Copyvio. But avoid additional incoming and outward links that would make it appear as if this "/Temp" page is part of the encyclopedia: that is, in the case the Copyvio template is used, only this template, applied in article namespace, can link to the "/Temp" article from article or "main" namespace. See below Disallowed uses for further recommendations on how to avoid creating the impression a "/Temp" page is an encyclopedia page.
"The Wikipedia reference desk works like a library reference desk." - surely that is enough guidance - see Library reference desk it's very enlightening. Note that librarians are not there to "put in their 2 cents". 87.102.13.235 16:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
I added this comment, which showed up in the history but not on the page: [9].
Then I added it again here: [10].
What's going on here ? Why didn't it "take" the first time I added it ? StuRat 19:23, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, this is where we can work on a proposed policy/guideline and the associated talk is where we can discuss it. Below is the intro:
What is going on here: A lot of work was done (in large part by StuRat) in developing two pages; /rules and /guideline. There was accusation of POV-forking. Then TenOfAllTrades developed a draft based in the previous work and discussions. There was consensus that that draft would be an appropriate continuation. To that end, and to prevent discussion of the same topic, proposed RD policy, taking place in multiple locations, I am bringing it all here. The /rule and /guideline are archived here for reference only. Please do not edit those. The Ten draft can and should be edited.
Please discuss edits only on the associated talk page, Wikipedia talk:Reference desk/guidelines. -- Justanother 15:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
The only thing that need be done now is a merge of the /purpose page to another archived section in /guidelines. Feel free please. -- Justanother 21:46, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
For those of you who may wish a non-strict or regular answer there is now the regular template (append {{regular}}) to get the regular answer that you have been receiving for quite a while now. This may become the default response at some future time but in the meantime feel free to add this {{regular}}template request or nothing at all to receive a regular response. -- hydnjo talk 22:36, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
Looks like hydnjo is on a WP:POINT crusade here. A template that huge is obviously useless, and it also uses the abbrev "OP", which we've had pretty strong agreement should never be used (because the OP doesn't know what an OP is). StuRat 01:46, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
How about a {{no wankers}} template? 83.100.250.252 13:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Like: {{This post/thread has been proposed for deletion in accordance with the RD guidelines}}-- Light current 15:53, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
"Bear in mind that telling somebody their post is inappropriate and/or removing it, is almost certain to cause offense. Our goal should be to minimize total offense. Therefore, when dealing with a comment that "might, possibly, be offensive to somebody" versus a removal that is certain to be offensive to the author, the goal of minimizing total offense would normally indicate that the post should be left in. If, on the other hand, the post has definitely offended multiple people, then the goal of minimizing offense is best served by removing the post. However, the author should still be notified, in this case, that's just basic courtesy." StuRat 17:08, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Why is stuff disappearing off the Misc RD? Check this diff out. I had the same thing happen on one of my edits. Here is mine. I was not deleting anything - I was adding a reply. -- Justanother 02:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I had weird missing history earlier tonight... try adding a "purge" command to the url and see if stuff reappears, it worked for me. See this link for an example of the syntax. What it does is forces Wikipedia to drop the cached version of the page and go back to the database. -- SCZenz 08:00, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
... I thought it might be useful if we all sat down and said what we want the Reference Desk to be like. I'll go first:
Of course the second point is a terrible can of worms to analyze -- so I won't even try to. I'm just acknowleding that it is indeed a can of worms. Cheers. Vranak 16:55, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
A discussion about the proposed rules/guidelines is now underway here: Wikipedia:Reference desk/guidelines. Please join us and give your opinions. StuRat 20:13, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Please comment on that talk page, not here. StuRat 22:31, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed something I thought was hopelessly off-topic, but it was restored. Bringing it up here for further input. My opinion was that, while sad, there's nothing the reference desk can do about this. Friday (talk) 20:24, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Start here: KDAF -- Justanother 20:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
The point is that we figure out what is being asked and, if appropriate, we answer. I still do not see this as, in any way, an inappropriate question deserving of a callous deletion. -- Justanother 21:57, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
I have just removed two comments that replied to the question at Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#Swallowed_shampoo; the comments are quoted below.
Before now, I don't believe I've ever removed any comment from the Ref Desk before bar obvious trolling or vandalism. I believe that in this case my removal was justified because the comments gave what amounts to medical advice, to a minor, about an emergent medical condition. I have notified the editors of my reasoning.
If someone thinks I've overstepped, then do as you will; I'm going to be offline for the next little bit, and won't be able to follow this discussion. Please discuss before starting an edit war on the Ref Desk page, however. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 23:11, 18 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there a generally accepted response to questions like this? 68.39.174.238 13:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I have seen a massive uptick in answers where people (typically ref-desk regulars) just make stuff up that sounds right. One question about the ease of making narcotics was answered by using supply and demand as a signal for ease of creation (not accurate), and recently a question about Japaneese TV was answered with what appears to be someone's assumptions, as likley to be true as not. Can I request that people not just make stuff up? Hipocrite - «Talk» 15:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
The average number of hairs in a typical eyebrow, if or how the count differs for men or women or different hair colors, could most probably be answered by pointing to some clinical studies on the matter. I don't see that redefining the question in the manner you suggest is "speculation", but instead a good way of responding to a poor question. What we shouldn't do tho is state that, for instance, "blonde haired people have thicker hair" w/o some source to back up that claim. If an editor cannot back such a statement up w/ a proper source then why shouldn't they simply remain silent?It is a question of fact, which has an answer independent of what anyone thinks, whether Julius Caesar at the age of twelve had an odd or an even number of hairs on his head. But it is a question impossible to answer with our present methods of historical inquiry. We could speculate about the answer, but our speculations would be worthless.Posner, Richard A. (1998). "The Problematics of Moral and Legal Theory". Harvard Law Review. 111 (7): p. 1645.
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Isnt there a bot that is supposed to assign date headings? This is now 2nd time I have to manually put dates in Misc. I mean if it was usually handled manually I'll just keep adding dates quitely, but if there was a bot it might need looking into... Shinhan 16:03, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't know why this never occurred to me before. We should notice that the name is "reference desk" rather than "chat desk", "joke desk", or "everyone replies to everything desk". I think this tells us something about what we should be doing here- we should use references. We should point people to information- preferably articles, but other good sources are OK too.
Yes, I understand that there's been a bit of disagreement over this. Perhaps it was all caused by people trying to use a single page for two different purposes? I propose that those editors who want to do something other than answer questions with references should set up shop at Wikipedia:Chat desk or somewhere similiar, and perhaps many of these disagreements will go away. I for one, would keep my nose out of Wikipedia:Chat desk- you'd not find me popping in over there, trying to get people to cut out the chatting. Friday (talk) 16:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I think we need a new version called the "Find it Desk", which strictly answers with references, no commentary allowed. I would be happy to stay off that desk. StuRat 17:10, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Question:is such and such x? Answer:yes Answer:agree by the way that reminds me of a joke ha ha thats a funny one here's another (fuck the question) ha ha ha I disagree with your answer blah,blah blah oh I see, we can discuss it here - fuck the original question yes i agree Oh and heres a fact that unrelated to the question - I didn't actually read the question and the link I've given isn't an answer but - so what - I haven't noticed. etc.
I believe such things are called 'off topic' - 83.100.158.248 18:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
A small point: Barrier to Entry.
If the Reference Desk appears to be more formal than it actually is, it will discourage people from asking 'undesireable' questions. Hence, calling it a Reference Desk, when there's also a strong chat component, is not altogether unwise.
If people come in, take the trouble to look around, and notice an air of familiarity and informality, then they'll realize that it is a little more than a straight question-and-factual answer type-Reference Desk. Vranak 21:40, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to suggest that these lines be removed from Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science#Personal allergy:
The first line, funny though it may be to most people, is potentially offensive to women (and frankly, kind of turns my stomach too). The second line because it doesn't make much sense without the first. And, of course, neither actually contributes to answering the question (which was going quite well otherwise).
I've left a note on Vespine's talk page referring him here. Are there any objections to removing those lines? -- SCZenz 06:01, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Vespines comment: It's 'off topic' and could be considered offensive. It's certainly no answer and no help to finding an answer. 87.102.4.227 12:14, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
As of the point of removal, we've had comments from me and Light Current supporting keeping it in, and presumably the author is in favor of that, as well. We only received two comments in favor of removal, from SCZenz and Friday. Vranak's comment didn't seem to be either for or against removal. This hardly seems like a "consensus for removal", and thus, I object to any removal until more voices have been heard and a consensus is formed. StuRat
If a comment such as this needs consensus prior to removal, then when an editor feels the need to make a joke or off-topic comment they should list it here—we'll see if there is consensus for it's addition. EricR 14:21, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
I removed those comments. I did not, indeed, "demand" removal. I asked for it, but in the end, there was no argument given for why those particular comments improve the reference desk, and I am 100% confident that the first remark is potentially offensive even if not all the above users agree. (The second remark, whose sentiments I agree with, I'm only removing because it would be contextless without the first.) As Friday says, maybe not everyone here would've personally removed them, but surely you can see that there's not much benefit to putting them back. -- SCZenz 16:33, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
StuRat, I am utterly astounded that you would put these back given the discussion here. Did you first read the discussion here? Do you think that putting these comments back improved the reference desk? Friday (talk) 17:26, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
OK THis post:
Yeah, they're "allergic", sure they are. Can't imagine why'd they claim that.. ;) Vespine 21:51, 19 December 2006 (UTC)
Reads to me like a sarcastic statement meaning that women cannot in fact be allergic to semen but just say they are for some reason. It could be interpreted as Vespine saying that some women try to avoid sex with men by saying they are allergic to semen. Is that a joke? Its not funny to me, but neither is it offensive. I think SCZ has really had to try hard to glean his meaning from the above words and of course it shows he was thinking along those lines to start with. How does he know Vespine was referrinng to swallowing semen? I didnt/dont-- Light current 20:05, 21 December 2006 (UTC)
In other words, there hasn't been any sort of censorship at work—SCZenz was very thorough and patient in notifying both the original poster through his talk page and the Desk collectively here. He waited a more than reasonable amount of time for comment.
Why the heck would we want to restore a comment that 1) doesn't help to answer any question, and 2) is potentially highly insulting to any women who read, ask, or answer at the Desk? This isn't a boys' locker room. TenOfAllTrades( talk) 19:06, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Looks like wikipoint to me. There is no reason at all to restore comments that add nothing to the answer. StuRat, can you just stop this war and concentrate on making ref desk a useful resource. Patrolling the edits to restore 'jokes' is not doing that. You're wasting your own time and going out of your way to piss people off at the same time. It's pretty lame. David D. (Talk) 20:20, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Here's a question: given that everyone (I think) agrees that the comment was borderline -- not terribly funny, potentially offensive but not terribly so -- is deleting it the best way to improve the Reference Desk?
We all agree (I think) that we want a high-quality Reference Desk, without excessive off-topic content, "humorous" or otherwise. What if, for borderline cases, we agreed that (a) someone who finds it on the wrong side of that border line is free to, politely, say so, and (b) the original poster promises to not take offense, not cry "censorship", but merely say, "I'm sorry, I'll try to be more considerate next time." Besides avoiding unnecessary contention, this has the added side benefit that others can see the exchange, and adjust their own assessment of what's likely to be found objectionable or otherwise inappropriate. — Steve Summit ( talk) 22:32, 20 December 2006 (UTC)