![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
Just a couple of things to look out for to ensure that the archiving goes through with smoothly. There are a couple things that will confuse the bot at the moment, but they're easy to prevent if we're paying attention.
If a couple people keep an eye out for these things there should be no problems : )! freshofftheufo ΓΛĿЌ 01:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
If I look up something in the archived responses and find an erroneous response, or feel that an additional response would clarify or improve the quality, is it possible and or allowed to add something? Edison 06:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Time for another talk page archive by the looks of it-- 71.247.105.54 16:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
To allow any one person to decide what "might possibly be offensive to some potential reader somewhere" and allow to them to remove it (except in clear cases of WP:BITE, WP:CIVILITY etc) is in my opinion the start of individual CENSORSHIP. This would be the end of WP IMO 8-(.-- Light current 21:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Neither am I unless it violates existing policy OR I can get someone else to agree rthat its not acceptable! 8-)-- Light current 00:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I started this section but was remiss in that I didn't add context immediately below the header. As a result, the purpose for which I added the header can and has been misunderstood so I'll add my intent.
This is a talk page and as such is subject to the talk page guideline of "Keep on topic: Talk pages are not for general conversation. Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal." I think however, that the guideline should not apply strictly to this particular talk page as it is not related to an article and am proposing that the guideline be interpreted more liberally here on this page. And further, as I have stated in the previous section, irrelevant or "silly" commentary should be ignored rather than debated at length. I'm definitely not suggesting that the RD itself be immune to the deletion of inappropriate comments. Just the opposite, because of the public face of the RD I feel that we should be quite strict about deleting inappropriate material there. -- hydnjo talk 19:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Non-serious questions about seagulls are no longer funny. They are vandalism, and should be reverted on sight. JBKramer 13:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, those were all my questions. What's your point? I love seagulls and I want to know as much as I can about them and I would quite like to own one as a pet, so I was asking in the place where I thought I could get some answers. -- 84.68.125.122 18:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Deleting questions as you see fit isn't your prerogative. Good questions have value regardless of the OP's intent. --
froth
T
C
04:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
It seems we have a new censor on board who thinks he can delete anything he wants! I dont think he can! 8-(-- Light current 21:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Just because a question is inappropriate doesn't mean we should delete it. On medical questions, for example, we can still say "That sounds serious, you'd better see a doctor immediately". Nobody will get sued for that advice, and it may even save a life. StuRat 22:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The size of this talk page was really getting out of control-- VectorPotentialThe Reference Desk 19:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Surely the current activity of refdeskbot is wrong.. see http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk%3AMartinp23&diff=88532501&oldid=88528654
Currently because of this bot changes to discussions on the main page do not appear in the edit history. The bot operator admits other users have 'complained' and says it would be a simple matter to fix. However he says he requires consensus before making any changes to the bots behaviour and suggested trying here. (See User talk:87.102.21.223)
(Personally I note that the bot is operating incorrectly and should be stopped, but as it is only a minor niggle I should try the correct polite methods first before becoming angry.)
So please help. Thank you. 87.102.21.223 01:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
The sections at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#Arranged marriage and Wikipedia:Reference Desk/Miscellaneous#Arranged Marriage got a bit too chatty rather than factual in their responses, as the questioner himself noted. If a question appears to be clear trolling, it can be removed or ignored; if it's possible trolling, feel free to ignore it. But in neither case should the question be used as an excuse to have fun with the questioner. -- SCZenz 19:57, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone else noticed but all the QAs for November 18 seem to have been excised. I'm not quite sure what to do about this, as I assume any reversion would delete all that has been added since? Clio the Muse 08:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Where did the question about who would win the French election go? I think the title was something like Royal vs. Sarkozy vs. LePen. Are we not supposed to talk politics because these discussion systematically turn into wars? I can't find a trace of it. Thank you Keria 10:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I remember seing a discussion on this page about whether we should keep or remove the funny (sarcastic ?) answers. Can someone tell me what the outcome was ? -- WikiCheng | Talk 12:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I was just wondering if the person who answers can put a mark (may be a smiley?), to indicate that it is not a serious answer. I am not sure if this suggestion has been considered (and discarded :-) )-- WikiCheng | Talk 07:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
My suggestion was an attempt to make theanswer not sound rude or serious. It is possible that a naive questioner will take a funny answer to be serious. On the other hand, if the question is Why is the black sea called black sea ?, the answer Because someone named it black sea would be taken to be rude, even if the answerer meant it to be funny. -- WikiCheng | Talk 08:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
How do I propose this to be implemented? Is there a page for this? -- WikiCheng | Talk 09:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Ironically, the addition of such a symbol will probably render all funny responses less funny, or possibly unfunny. Much like the way that lots of exclamation marks make astonishing things seem more mundane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And funny things less funny. And unfunny things very annoying!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- Dweller 09:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't completely agree. A smiley at the end of a funnly line does not make it any less funny. May be a symbol at the beginning (indicating that what follows is supposed to be funny) does. I suppose that a smiley at the end of the answer should serve the purpose ? -- WikiCheng | Talk 09:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I thought that a small smiley placed by the person who answers wouldn't hurt. After all, nobody else but the answerer decides if the answer is supposed to be serious one or a funny one. But if you think that this is not necessary, let us not have it -- WikiCheng | Talk 05:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
The average questioner will likely not be falling down laughing as editors try to top one another with funny answers to his question. Imagine if two or 3 RLRDL's (Real Life Reference Desk Librarians) turned your sincere question into a subject of their humor traded back and forth like an unfunny TV Celebrity Roast. On the other hand, there are experts who contribute their time for this unpaid service which adds value to the Wikipedia project. A little camaraderie is perhaps their only compensation for perhaps $100 per day of donated expertise. It is more acceptable if the question is well answered first, and if the humor is not in the nature of poking fun at the naivete of the questioner. Such meanness or sarcasm hurts Wikipedia and drives off newbies, and might well be deleted. Edison 16:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Please refer Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#The_Black_Sea. Can we have a better way of dealing with impolite questioners ? All of us are wasting our time in either admonishing the questioner or arguing among ourselves. I suggest that we put a one line (or a template?) stating something likeYour question / reply seems to be rude / impolite. As we don't like to answer such questions, this is the end of this discussion. Let us keep quite after this, unless ofcourse either the questioner rephrases his question or some kind hearted wikipedian answers the question in spite of the rudeness. -- WikiCheng | Talk 07:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with likeYour question / reply seems to be rude / impolite. As we don't like to answer such questions, this is the end of this discussion. If you wish to re-ask the question please be polite. They can obviously ask again in a new section if they wish. As for the 'black sea case' the first reply was abrupt - but did give a link to the page. We are not here to write essays. This may be rude but the reply just confirms the initial impression of the questioner ie "Do my homework for me, I'm a lazy little brat".etc. Personally I'm sick of even attempting to excuse such people. 87.102.36.82 14:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
If you would ask your question in a polite manner, we may be able to help you!
I agree that ignoring such rudeness is the best way to deal with them. But do we ignore ? Someone is bound to reply to a rude comment / question and someone else feels like adding to it (moral support ?). After sometime, we have many comments and the questioner must be enjoying loking at them. My suggestion is to put a standard reply (that is why I suggested a template) after which everyone is expected to refrain from retaliating. But if somebody wants to answer the question in good faith, I am all for it. Taking all suggestions, can we make it Your question / reply seems to be rude / impolite. You are not likely to get any more answers. If you would ask your question in a polite manner, we may be able to help you!. In any case, this will not prevent the guy from re-asking the question nicely, getting an answer and then thanking with a I still got the answer I wanted from you f!@$ing b@$%^&*s... -- :-) WikiCheng | Talk 05:37, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
OK. -- WikiCheng | Talk 04:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I have a question about a film. Should it be asked here or on the humanities section?
-- Meno25 02:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Moved from the main reference desk and, partly, from THB's talk page. This is in regard to the question on the humanities desk about unjust laws (specifically, Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#Modern_day_unjust_laws,_institutions,_or_corporations_in_the_United_States?)
We have to be more accepting of opinion, as many fields in the humanities, language, and even soft sciences don't lend themselves to strictly factual answers. For example, the precise shades of meanings of words can't be documented scientifically. StuRat 12:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
(Discussion moved from project space Natgoo 10:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC))
So this page is now to be used for giving advice on obtaining the services of prostitutes? A real class act. Clio the Muse 01:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't like to see questions deleted. Whether the question is in poor taste or not is....a matter of taste. It is also irrelevant. I also believe that when a troll asks an answerable question, it should be answered, and everyone moves on, seems easier than deleting it. Behind a trolling question is a lack of knowledge about the subject, and I don't think the reason for asking a question is relevant. (To be clear, I don't believe this particular question is trolling at all.) LIke I read on another website today, if someone doesn't like a particular post, there's a little "X" up in the corner of their browser and they can click on it. - THB 07:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
A factual, neutral response to a question about a licit and legal service (in many parts of the world) is perfectly appropriate for the RD. Please stop insisting we share your offense, Clio - Anchoress handled the question very well. Natgoo 10:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
The fact that some people are enraged by sexual questions while others are perfectly fine with them to me suggests that we need a Sexuality Ref Desk, which the more sensitive readers could then avoid. StuRat 12:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
(question moved to WP:RD/C#a question about Dedicated servers)
I removed the section on "Tarka the otter" from the Humanities reference desk. It seemed to be a clear-cut case of a question calling for opinions, which was in fact not possible to answer factually, and it was asked by a user familiar with the reference desk and its proper purpose. The responses were likewise all discussion, which is again not what the reference desk is for. If I missed something, and someone can argue that this discussion involved actual facts, I will apologize for my error. -- SCZenz 16:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Is "What are the literary merits and demerits of Shakespeare's Henry IV, Part 1?" a valid RD question??? - THB 07:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Off-topic or otherwise useless content can be removed if some editor gets the urge to do so. This has been standard accepted practice for a long time, as far as I know. I agree with SCZenz that questions that can only be answered with opinion are one category of stuff we probably don't want to try to deal with here. (The reference desk is part of Wikipedia, after all.) Friday (talk) 20:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I do not know if the reference desk community handled Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#sick dreams correctly. It seems to me that the question requested advice, and was responded to with personal opinions about what to do (including what was more or less medical advice) rather than facts. Any thoughts on how we could have handled this better? -- SCZenz 00:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
The following is copied from RD/S and is an example of what we should not be doing, being unhelpful:
It is far better to move on to another question if you can't be helpful. -- hydnjo talk 03:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I took this accidentally-unhelpful answer, and discussion thereof, out in order to make it easier for the question-asker to find the answer to his question. -- SCZenz 03:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Splice After looking see what you think. 8-)-- Light current 01:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
In film technique or audio recording, splicing means to join the ends of two pieces of film or magnetic tape, for example, in editing.
-- Light current 01:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe the post in question has been removed from the RD, so there is no point in discussing it. Splice. The connection seems obvious [1]-- Light current 18:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The following is an example from RD/S of an unhelpful response that reflects poorly on the RD:
That response is uncalled for. If you don't intend to be helpful then just move on to another question for which you can provide a helpful response, -- hydnjo talk 03:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
(unindent)Question: is there a relationship with madness and the historical views of normality?
I am doing a course on Abnormal Psychology, and have started to do this particular assignment, and I need a clue as to what it is asking for, as Im not sure if I understand the question, and dont want to write the assignment to find its not what they wanted at all - can anyone give me a clue?? thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kargus (talk • contribs) .[posted 14:59, 28 November 2006] (several responses skipped)
Recently, a concern has been raised about how the Reference Desk has become too humorous, and there have been contentions that certain items should be removed. Please see User:SCZenz/Reference desk removals for a proposal on this subject. User:SCZenz and I would like to attempt to garner a consensus on this topic. Do you think admins (or other editors) should remove inappropriate comments and/or threads from the Reference Desk? Please keep the discussion civil. User:Zoe| (talk) 18:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I've added my comments at User talk:SCZenz/Reference desk removals. StuRat 21:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this is correct or not, but I think the reference desk was originally to ask questions that you couldn't find in the encyclopedia itself. If this purpose hasn't changed, then anything that can be answered by actually USING wikipedia should just be deleted. Anything else should be kept, and before being deleted/archived, any relevant and correct answers should be transferred to the relevant articles. -- Chuq 07:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I see no significant cause for concern that the ref desk is running inefficiently or isn't carrying out its purpose. One thing I want to get straight is that the RD is an open forum and we're not trying to build an encyclopedia here! It makes no sense to try to apply rules written for an encyclopedia project to a reference desk. And no admin should be able to just pick out which rules they like out of the bunch and say that those are applicable to the RD. Well here's a rule I like: don't be a dick. But you know the movers and shakers are doing a fine job of creating an incredibly confusing and intricate problem, and I for one welcome our new admin overlords! "Mock submission," indeed -- froth T C 07:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
(Note: I posted this on the Admin NoticeBoard)
I missed the bulk of this discussion but as a regular on the subject board I want to make my feelings known.
Most importantly: While I appreciate SCZenz' desire to improve wikipedia and his efforts to do so, I strongly oppose arbitrary censorship. I, personally, am more than willing to put up with a *possibly irrelevant* penis joke (though it actually did have some relevance) in order to protect my own right to make comments as I see fit (fit as being relevant to the discussion at hand although perhaps not popular with some wikipedians).
Other than that, I think that many, if not most, of the contributors are experienced wikipedians and are perfectly capable of policing the desk and dealing with disruptive influences. But it important to remember that one reason many of us like to hang out there is the jokes and banter. Only a part of the reason to be sure but part nonetheless. The intellectual stimulation and, often the tangents, have value to us. If they don't then we can ignore them.
Also, I think that article talk page rules are not analoguous and do not apply. The purpose of article talk pages is to develop an article that complies with wikipedia policy; it is important that they honor those policies. The purpose of the reference desk is to either answer a question or steer the questioner toward the answer. The postings there, especially on the misc. desk, will often consist of original research and may not cite their sources. That is entirely appropriate. The Reference Desks are their own beasts and perhaps need additional policy developed. If such policy needs developing it must be developed through the normal review process.
-- Justanother 14:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes Ahem! Sorry! Am I f***** invisible/inaudible? I suggested guidelines weeks ago and everbody said we dont need em. The evidence now is that we do need em. Many people have now said we need 'em. So whats the score? If people think we need em lets continue the discussion I started. (If you dont mind)-- Light current 23:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Draft guidelines for the Reference desks (draft #1)
Copied from where they were originally.-- Light current 18:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Respondents should try to keep all answers 'on topic' if possible. -- Light current 18:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
This is an example of a question without a signed response. The question would be signed (like this will be), but the responses would not. So, here's the question. Why is there air? -- Rick Block ( talk) 22:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Any further editing would be edits to the response - without a signature! and without "separate answers" being indicated. It's not a discussion thread, it's a single answer. So, if the answer was not complete somebody else might come along and expand the answer by editing it. -- Rick Block ( talk) 00:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
This response is using an experimental approach to answering questions where the answer is being treated like a mini-article. Please feel free to edit the response if you feel it is not sufficient, but do not sign your edits.
Rewiring may not be needed at all; just feed DC current to the unit and it will spin (for generator, not alternator). See Electric motor.
Rewiring may not be needed at all; just feed DC current to the unit and it will spin (for generator, not alternator). See Electric motor and electrical generator. Many generators through history have been motors as well. Thomas Edison's DC generators at Pearl Street, the first central power generating station in the US, had that characteristic, so that the speed governors had to be mechanically linked to keep one from running increasingly fast (being a motor) while the other ran increasingly slow (being a generator) when they were first connected in parallel. In todays AC power system, a generator whose steam supply is retired (like in a closed nuclear plant) can be run up to synchronous speed with a small pony engine, then paralleled to the AC system bus. It will run as a motor powered by the AC network, and by adjusting the field current, it can be a synchronous condensor, correcting the power factor and raising the system voltage to a desired level like a bank of capacitors. A simple permanent magnet DC motor, such as found in a toy, will generate DC if spun rapidly. A more complicated AC or DC motor may need rewiring of the field coil electric supply, which takes the place of the permanent magnets in a small toy motor. An AC generator needs some way to get up to near synchronous speed, such as a start winding which is disconected when it is up to speed or the aforementioned pony engine which can be mounted on the generator shaft. If full line voltage AC were connected to a stationary AC generator which was unmodified, it might draw heavy current and present a locked rotor condition and burn out.
See Electric motor and electrical generator. Rewiring may not be needed at all; just feed DC current to the unit and it will spin (for generator, not alternator). However, you need to know a bit more to get the results you are looking for and avoid burning something. You need some means of controlling the voltage and current applied to the generator/motor. I assume you are talking about a DC generator and not an AC generator or alternator. The easiest and perhaps the only way to deal with the field is to connect it to a separate power supply. Probably the simplest way to get the motor started is to put several resistors in series with the armature and progressively short them out as the motor comes up to speed. With an assortment of resistors and a voltmeter and an ammeter or two, you can probably figure out quite a bit, but you really need a textbook.
Many generators through history have been motors as well. Thomas Edison's DC generators at Pearl Street, the first central power generating station in the US, had that characteristic, so that the speed governors had to be mechanically linked to keep one from running increasingly fast (being a motor) while the other ran increasingly slow (being a generator) when they were first connected in parallel. In todays AC power system, a generator whose steam supply is retired (like in a closed nuclear plant) can be run up to synchronous speed with a small pony engine, then paralleled to the AC system bus. It will run as a motor powered by the AC network, and by adjusting the field current, it can be a synchronous condensor, correcting the power factor and raising the system voltage to a desired level like a bank of capacitors. A simple permanent magnet DC motor, such as found in a toy, will generate DC if spun rapidly. A more complicated AC or DC motor may need rewiring of the field coil electric supply, which takes the place of the permanent magnets in a small toy motor. An AC generator needs some way to get up to near synchronous speed, such as a start winding which is disconected when it is up to speed or the aforementioned pony engine which can be mounted on the generator shaft. If full line voltage AC were connected to a stationary AC generator which was unmodified, it might draw heavy current and present a locked rotor condition and burn out.
See Electric motor and electrical generator. Rewiring may not be needed at all; just feed DC current to the unit and it will spin (for generator, not alternator). However, you need to know a bit more to get the results you are looking for and avoid burning something. You need some means of controlling the voltage and current applied to the generator/motor. I assume you are talking about a DC generator and not an AC generator or alternator. The easiest and perhaps the only way to deal with the field is to connect it to a separate power supply. Probably the simplest way to get the motor started is to put several resistors in series with the armature and progressively short them out as the motor comes up to speed. With an assortment of resistors and a voltmeter and an ammeter or two, you can probably figure out quite a bit, but you really need a textbook.
Many generators through history have been motors as well. Thomas Edison's DC generators at Pearl Street, the first central power generating station in the US, had that characteristic, so that the speed governors had to be mechanically linked to keep one from running increasingly fast (being a motor) while the other ran increasingly slow (being a generator) when they were first connected in parallel. In todays AC power system, a generator whose steam supply is retired (like in a closed nuclear plant) can be run up to synchronous speed with a small pony engine, then paralleled to the AC system bus. It will run as a motor powered by the AC network, and by adjusting the field current, it can be a synchronous condensor, correcting the power factor and raising the system voltage to a desired level like a bank of capacitors. A simple permanent magnet DC motor, such as found in a toy, will generate DC if spun rapidly. A more complicated AC or DC motor may need rewiring of the field coil electric supply, which takes the place of the permanent magnets in a small toy motor. An AC generator needs some way to get up to near synchronous speed, such as a start winding which is disconected when it is up to speed or the aforementioned pony engine which can be mounted on the generator shaft. If full line voltage AC were connected to a stationary AC generator which was unmodified, it might draw heavy current and present a locked rotor condition and burn out.
See Electric motor and electrical generator. Rewiring may not be needed at all; just feed DC current to the unit and it will spin (for generator, not alternator). However, you need to know a bit more to get the results you are looking for and avoid burning something. You need some means of controlling the voltage and current applied to the generator/motor. I assume you are talking about a DC generator and not an AC generator or alternator. The easiest and perhaps the only way to deal with the field is to connect it to a separate power supply. Probably the simplest way to get the motor started is to put several resistors in series with the armature and progressively short them out as the motor comes up to speed. With an assortment of resistors and a voltmeter and an ammeter or two, you can probably figure out quite a bit, but you really need a textbook.
Many generators through history have been motors as well. Thomas Edison's DC generators at Pearl Street, the first central power generating station in the US, had that characteristic, so that the speed governors had to be mechanically linked to keep one from running increasingly fast (being a motor) while the other ran increasingly slow (being a generator) when they were first connected in parallel. In todays AC power system, a generator whose steam supply is retired (like in a closed nuclear plant) can be run up to synchronous speed with a small pony engine, then paralleled to the AC system bus. It will run as a motor powered by the AC network, and by adjusting the field current, it can be a synchronous condensor, correcting the power factor and raising the system voltage to a desired level like a bank of capacitors. A simple permanent magnet DC motor, such as found in a toy, will generate DC if spun rapidly. A more complicated AC or DC motor may need rewiring of the field coil electric supply, which takes the place of the permanent magnets in a small toy motor. An AC generator needs some way to get up to near synchronous speed, such as a start winding which is disconected when it is up to speed or the aforementioned pony engine which can be mounted on the generator shaft. If full line voltage AC were connected to a stationary AC generator which was unmodified, it might draw heavy current and present a locked rotor condition and burn out.
The way it turns out is that each time I check back to learn more about the subject I need to read the entire answer, top to bottom, in order to find out what has been edited in/out, if anything, from my previous visit. A particularly bad thing if two or more editors disagree. And damn it, now I can't even throw up my hands in despair and go to Google-answers and spend $2 for a stable response! -- hydnjo talk 15:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I suggest we create a new "Serious Ref Desk", as a test:
Let's create it in parallel to the current Ref Desks and see how it goes. We will need Admins or others to go through the desk frequently and be very strict with enforcing the rules (there's no shortage of Admins twitching to do just this). StuRat 11:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. -- Dweller 18:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I contribute to the reference desk as an identified, albeit anonymous individual; and thus I would wish it to remain. I have no desire to see what I write corrupted and bowlderized, like so many other pages in Wikipedia, to which I make no input. Here I am free from the POV warriors, and I can make a valid contribution within the limits of my expertise, and, I hope, guide people to some deeper understanding of the matter under consideration. I do not always expect people to agree with the points I make, but I hope to stimulate some creative thought. I do not want to be part of a collective mass of undifferentiated opinion, or forms of Stalinist diktat. Therefore, I am completely opposed to the above suggestions, which I consider misguided and unworkable. Clio the Muse 12:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't personally want that type of Serious Ref Desk, either, but we seem to be getting more and more pressure from Admins to do just that. We should therefore at least try it, and see if it works or not. StuRat 12:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I most definitely do not speak for all admins (and, anyone who claims they do is lying), so please don't generalize my comments to "admins" (and this whole us/them thing is really starting to piss me off - in nearly all contexts admins are simply users like any other whose opinions should carry no more weight than those of any other experienced user [admins as a group include a high percentage of extremely experienced users]). I've suggested an experiment, which I freely admit would be a fairly radical change. The point is not to suppress individuality but to change the nature of the RD away from chatroom into somethng that without trying it I don't think anyone can precisely describe.
As an unsigned comment this would be subject to editing. But what would be the point of changing this comment? Perhaps you disagree that he killed several million people, so you change it to "allegedly killed". Perhaps you dislike including Walmart in the top five evils the world has ever known so you delete it. Maybe this annoys me and I add it back. Now you and I are edit warring and we need to resolve our respective differences. Maybe I ask you if you can live with Walmart being in the list with a smiley implying I'm really not serious (offline, on talk pages). The point is our discussion is not relevant to the answer and (IMO, as a user) shouldn't be recorded inline as part of the answer.
Am I suggesting answers have to be entirely serious?
No.
-- Rick Block ( talk) 15:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Some people commented that the RD is the first part of wikipedia that some newbies see. This might explain a lot- newbies frequently don't understand what we do here. If the first thing they saw was the RD, this is perfectly understandable.
Wikipedia is not:
Yet, from what I've seen, the reference desk is these things. Why are we intentionally giving people such wrong ideas about the project? If the reference desk were only for questions about Wikipedia (call it the "Help Desk" instead perhaps- whoops, we already have exactly that) these problems might go away. Friday (talk) 15:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
The attractive nuisance analogy is very apropos; the key similarity being that the "nuisance" has value but has not been properly managed. We do not, then, do away with pools, trampolines, and piles of sand; we ensure that they are used safely and protected against misuse.
Let's take a look at what a newbie would see starting with the main page:
Reference desk — Serving as virtual librarians, Wikipedia volunteers tackle your questions on a wide range of subjects.
Wow, cool! Maybe they know how to cook this fish my husband caught.
Miscellaneous: Subjects that don't fit in any of the other categories
Yeah, that is probably the place.
How to ask a question: A real lot of tiny text. Basically don't ask homework questions in full and no medical/legal advice.
All right! "Hi what is the best way to cook this fish my husband just handed me. I think it is a trout."
Helpful wikipedians that love to cook trout jump in with their tips and favorite recipes; a few may link to an off-site recipe or to a term like fillet or saute. But basically it is all opinion and experience and forum and how-to and decidedly non-encyclopedic and totally in compliance with the header guidelines.
That tells me that the reference desks are NOT articles; they are part of the wikipedia community, they are a discussion forum. They are not subject to WP:NOT which says "The above guidelines apply to articles (emphasis added) on Wikipedia. These [below] guidelines apply to Wikipedia discussions."
Regarding the referenced user; he clearly misused the reference desk on at least one early occasion that I checked, see here. Was he corrected then? I see two more recent warnings on his talk page so hopefully his behavior will change. My point being that "opinion and experience and forum and how-to" are not the problem; the problem, if there is a problem, is our own failure to correct disruptive users promptly. -- Justanother 22:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
(Copied from above discussion by StuRat 16:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC))
I'm probably going against years of established practice here, but I fail to see how the reference desk adds encyclopedic value. It's a time-waster- why don't we just ditch the whole thing? Friday (talk) 18:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
With 7 votes to keep, and none to discontinue (not even the person who actually made the suggestion), I think we can quickly put this suggestion to rest. "The motion is soundly defeated". StuRat 01:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
He decided he didn't like the poll below, so he just deleted it. This isn't allowed under talk desk rules, right ? I said so on his talk page, but guess what, he deleted it there, as well. The applicable rule is at WP:TPG:
"Don't edit others' comments: Refrain from editing others' comments without their permission (with the exception of prohibited material such as libel and personal details). It is not necessary to bring talk pages to publishing standards, so there is no need to correct typing errors, grammar, etc. It tends to irritate the users whose comments you are correcting. Never edit someone's words to change their meaning."
StuRat 10:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The rule is "Refrain from editing others' comments without their permission", changing the meaning is just one possible way to edit them. As for deleting your comments, you added your comments in the same edits where you deleted the comments of others. I don't know of any way to undo the deletion without also taking your comments out with them, as I explained on your talk page, which you then promptly deleted. I put your comments back in after, and promised I won't delete any comments you make that don't also include the deletion of other people's comments/votes. StuRat 10:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
If polls are very silly, they may be deleted :-) In general polls are used to gauge whether or not we have consensus. If you haven't really tried to form a consensus first, then there's no point, and the poll can even turn out to be divisive (and see some of the somewhat belligerant language above for an example of that). Kim Bruning 15:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The discussion is slowing down a bit, indicating that most arguments have been put forward. It seems to me the most workable solution is to start a test ref desk where deleting or moving of 'unfit' questions and answers is allowed. How exactly this should be done can then be tested there. This is the proposal at 'Proposed "Serious Ref Desk" Test' and 'Sui generis' above, without the 'no signatures' and 'references required' (let's not be too specific yet). DirkvdM 09:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Opinions (poll closed, please don't supply further opinions)
Further discussion
What if the consensus is to deal with this via a poll? -- Dweller 10:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The problem is there is nowhere near a consensus, so a decision has to be reached somehow. I stated above that I am in favour of trying this. I just don't think it will work, but to find that out it has to be tried. The point is to provide a solution for the polarisation. Like I said it will get those for and against deletion out of each other's hair. This will provide a transitional phase in which emotions can settle down a bit and the idea can be tested. Note that I might become active at that desk too, just to give it a try. Maybe people will manage to find ways to get it to work (most notably keeping tabs on the changes) if they are not disturbed by feuds. It's not to get rid of the deletionists. It's only temporary. If the idea works better than the original ref desks, then it might get implemented everywhere. DirkvdM 11:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
My a-bit-more-detailed explanation for my oppose above: this issue has nothing to do with experimenting with a new desk. This is clearly a question of policy not dissatisfaction with responses. We don't agree on policy, fine- then we discuss policy to no end (as has been going on, and the topic shows absolutely no signs of exhaustion). But what would a new experimental desk prove? Answers won't come faster. Answers won't come better. Answers will only come without jokes. I doubt it would catch on, but even if it did the most such a desk could prove is that posters don't like humor. But it's irrelevant, it's a question of policy not of popularity -- froth T C 19:57, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
With four people voting for the above test proposal (and Radiant apparently leaning towards the test) I thought this was enough encouragement to create a mockup of what it might look like. The only changes relative to current Ref Desks are at the top and bottom right (and the removal of the "Sign your posts" rule).
I've created a mockup we can look at here:
Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Strict
And the template is here, in case you want to make any modifications:
Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Strict/How_to_ask_and_answer
I haven't created any link from the main Ref Desk page yet, since I'd like to get more feedback, first. Also, this gives us time to work out any changes we want to make before the test is put into place. StuRat 13:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, as a quick post-hoc note, the above poll is useless for forming consensus as no actual basis for the peoples' opinions has been provided. It's now part of the running discussion, so I won't delete it. Instead I'll let it stand as an example of how not to do it :-P Kim Bruning 15:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I adding "No swearing" to the rules, and changed "No double posts" to "No triple posts", in case they want to double post between the Strict Ref Desk and one of the regular Ref Desks (for a comparison of the type of answers they get). StuRat 04:57, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
This "Serious Reference Desk" sounds like a type of WP:POV fork to me. - THB 07:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
What we have here is some disagreement over how to work the reference desk. Of course, such issues are not resolved by shutting it down entirely (besides, we're all volunteers here, and if people volunteer to answer questions there would be no point in stopping them). This is also not resolved by creating several reference desks, because that just increases the confusion.
Instead, we could create a simple and concise list of things that are or are not appropriate here. It doesn't have to be exhaustive. For instance we probably don't want a large picture of genitalia on here, and if a new user accidentally posts a new article here, we should just remove it and place it in article space. If there are other things that people argue don't belong here, let's talk about it. Some people say that jokes are inappropriate, but I'm sure there's the occasional question here that's so weird it just begs for a funny response, and frankly you can't legislate against humor anyway since it's human nature(yes, yes, we had a policy proposal to outlaw sarcasm a couple weeks ago... that was rather strange).
I've seen the suggestion of not using signatures on refdesk responses. That may be a good idea, the best idea to test that is if some refdesk regulars stop using their signatures here and see if it catches on; no harm done either way.
Think this would help? Comments welcome. ( Radiant) 10:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The no signatures sounds good. Making something new which you hope is better than before is almost never disruptive, so " Don't disrupt wikipedia to make a point" won't apply :-) Kim Bruning
It strikes me that to get a genuine test we would have to apply the rules to one of the existing desks, rather than create a new desk. This would determine how the rules/system worked in actual situations, and the page could carry a notice saying that it was trialing an experimental method. If we created a new desk, it would have disproportionate numbers of a)confused people b)people generally involved with the reference desk who want to test it. Average question-askers would mostly ask at the existing desks, because they are clearly marked with what sort of question they are for. If you wanted a vigorous test of a change, I would try it on the Misc desk, since that contains the most buffoonery at the moment. If something works there, it should work overall. Skittle 22:06, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
1) People used to using that Desk would not know about the rule changes. Being a new desk, with the name "Strict", they might expect some stricter rules and actually read the rules.
2) It's not fair to apply to rules retroactively, so this would leave earlier posts following different rules than later posts, which is bound to confuse the users.
3) If the test fails, that is, it just doesn't work to get good answers (most likely due to lack of responders willing to follow the strict rules), then we've lowered the opinion of many Wikipedia users. If it's a "test" Desk, then they don't have such high expectations.
4) I've proposed suspending the "no double posts" rule for the duration of the test, to allow questions to be posted on both the "Strict" Ref Desk and one of the regular Ref Desks. This will allow for a test and control, to best compare which set of rules provides the best answers to the same question. StuRat 03:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Hang on, wait wait, we're going to make a new "no fun" ref desk? Erm, I haven't looked into this in detail yet, but... why would people volunteer to do boring, none-fun work?
Perhaps we can we also make a split that requires all replys to be in haiku, limeric, iambic pentameter or at least rhyming doggerel form? <innocent look>
We can then compare and see which of the three is most popular. <very innocent look>
Kim Bruning 16:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC) ...even though I've always had the greatest trouble getting my verse to scan.
Instead of making a new desk to guage user reponse, why not just make a nice subpage to this talk page and ask in the RD headers for input from posters on whether they appreciate humor in responses. The opinion of questioners is of limited value as I pointed out above but this seems like a better idea than a whole new desk. A discussion with actual questioners would be of far greater value than just counting the number of people that use the new desk, and (if we do it the way that the mockup did) users are just as likely to participate in the discussion page as they are to participate in the new desk -- froth T C 20:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The whole "Serious RD" appears to be a WP:POINT violation. Keep one RD and apply WP existing policies to maintain the quality of answers. I hate the idea of anonymous answers provided by anyone in the world with access to a computer. How can it possibly improve the quality of the answers? How can the person posting a question form an opinion of the qualifications of the responder? Above there was a question copied to this talk page. Someone had a technical question about motors and generators. The questioner could easily check and see that both responders are (or at least claim to be) electrical engineers, and that they have contributed to numerous technical articles. With the proposal, the answer could be any IP person pranking the questioner. Bad idea. As is, I spend a fair amout of time searching the history file to identify anonymous editors, because that helps to out pranksters who are posting a whole series of dubious questions just to waste the time of those willing to answer serious questions. I do not see what is wrong with someone doing hard work to research and post a good answer getting credit for it, or with readily identifying pranksters. Edison 20:58, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that signed comments on the reference desk will lead to meatball:VestedContributors. WikiWikiWeb:DocumentMode is the objective of wikipedia. If at the ref desk we find extra sources or what have you, documentmode will make it easier to update articles than WikiWikiWeb:ThreadMode will. Kim Bruning 18:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
After taking a few days to think, and reviewing the above discussion, I have a number of comments.
First, the discussion above is largely fruitless, here's why:
Second, the reference desk doesn't really need to be reformed! This is my big insight from a few days of thought.
Third, what I think should be done now:
That's everything, hopefully. I'm not gonna get drawn into a big discussion on this, I'm just gonna go ahead and follow my own plan. If others join me, it will work in time—or a more formal solution will be sought in regard to individual users who are creating problems here. -- SCZenz 02:06, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
First class, SCZenz, and eminently sensible. All a good reference desk needs is knowledge, good sense and good faith. There will always be people around with these basic qualities to make the whole thing work as it should. Clio the Muse 02:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
and1) Be thorough. Please provide as much of the answer as you are able to.
If SCZenz wants to point out when the board goes too far astray and gently bring it back on point then I do not object. But a gentle reminder please, not a heavy hand on the delete key (or even a light one - just leave that key alone, please). Though WP:NPA violations should be dealt with in a more appropriate manner than "gently". -- Justanother 03:22, 3 December 2006 (UTC)2) Be polite. to users, especially ones new to Wikipedia. A little fun is fine, but don't be rude.
Left. All due respect but I think that if you are going to the effort to answer a questioun then you should answer it and not play a game with the questioner. I guess we should assume that the person that asked the question is only capable of putting the question here and reading the answer here so give them the answer if you have it. And if you do not have a complete answer then give them what you have. Only in the rare case that it is way too much to put here then summarize and link to the full answer. -- Justanother 03:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
You're right about the rules being fine as they are. You might even be right about the attitude of the RD as a social thing. However this isn't a big issue; infractions are minor and infrequent. Also they don't detract at all from the effectiveness of the RD. Of course if they're deliberately misleading this is a problem but it's a problem best addressed by a reply, not by clearing their response! Answers should never be edited or deleted in any way- with some extreme exceptions that's basically how it's worked in the past and it's worked fine. Yes there may be some problems but again it's not a big deal and to make things simple and keep from ruffling a lot of feathers, just don't do anything -- froth T C 05:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Edison responded to this opinion, and call for discussion, correctly—by pointing out that Wikipedia is not to be used as a soap box. There was no request for information, so there was no other way to answer. But then other users followed up by arguing the point, resulting in the misuse of the ref desk as a discussion forum in violation with WP:NOT. This should not have been done. -- SCZenz 05:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
SCZenz, here is the problem, as I see it: First, you make a seemingly reasonable statement like: "The reference desk rules work fine (with even a modicum of common sense), and a few minor discussions don't hurt anything anyway". That's fine, but then you go on the attack for what was "a few minor discussions". In other words, you say you will only go after egregious examples, but you don't, you go after very minor issues, as you did when you blocked Dirk. If you would actually do as you would say, your actions would be a lot less objectionable. I believe you are motivated by a need to "fix problems" that leads you to see problems where none actually exist. StuRat 07:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Some quick comments: 1. the argument posted for comment is not original research, but well-known (to philosophers), and goes back at least to A. J. Ayer. I therefore don't see a problem with discussing it, just as we might offer interpretations of and responses to other theories and arguments (see for instance the nearby discussion of a passage of Leibniz). 2. The question was about two subjects which are pretty clearly humanities: the philosophy of religion and the philosophy of science. It was therefore in the right place. 3. More generally: this discussion is being muddied by an unexamined, and in my view unhelpful, distinction between 'fact' and 'opinion'. The important distinction, surely, is between answers which merely assert something without support (from empirical evidence and/or reasoning) and answers which do give support? What counts as a mere opinion, then, is to do with how one constructs an answer, not with the content of the question. Yours, Sam Clark 13:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Exploring the issue brought up by the OP is one of the greatest advantages of the RD. If I'm doing research on samurais and I ask "how long are samurai swords" and someone answers, somebody adds more detail, and before you know it I have pages of facts and references all about the making, use, and characteristics of samurai swords! Let it stand SCZenz -- froth T C 23:01, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I see the reference desk is now being used to carry on a petty-minded campaign against another user, who is mentioned by name. This is not a joke-it is bad form and bad practice, the very things we must avoid if any credibility is to be retained. I will not delete this: I delete nothing, but I would request some administrative intervention. Clio the Muse 07:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Also, not knowing when I'm speaking with an Admin is a common problem, I do wish they could identify themselves uniformly, like with a special signature. How do you quickly identify whether a person is an Admin or not ? StuRat 08:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, here's a link to the question: [10]. StuRat 08:53, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
And here's the deletion by User:Skittle: [11]. StuRat 08:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
And here's the revert of the deletion, by User:DirkvdM: [12]. StuRat 08:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Now for my interpretation of what happened:
This question was asked:
How do you add a section?
These answers were added, then deleted:
Great, one gold star awarded. Well done! 87.102.8.53 19:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
See Self-fulfilling prophecy or Wikipedia:New contributors' help page - which ever applies.
Careful with irony if your answer may not be appropriate. Big bad SCZenz might delete your post. DirkvdM 09:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The first answer threw me, at first, but then I realized they are assuming the user now knows how to add a section, since they just did so when adding the question. However, I don't agree, since they might have used the special "Ask a question" link, and not know how to use the "+" sign after Edit to add a section, or how to manually add one using multiple equals signs during an edit. StuRat 09:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
The second answer seems based on that same assumption, although they did point the user to the correct page for this question.
The third answer probably isn't appropriate there, as we want to protect users from having to read about deletionist fights on Wikipedia.
As to whether I find any of these responses so bad that they need to be immediately removed, no, I don't. StuRat 09:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, I get it now, but let me explain my confusion over the issue, so you understand the problem for next time. First, the title of this section is "Petty War". Now, a war has combatants on both sides, and, since SCZ did not appear to be involved in this edit, that term didn't appear to apply between him and Dirk. On the other hand, a very short "edit war" did erupt between Dirk and Skittle, so that's what I thought you were talking about. Now, as for your post:
This also confused me, because you called SCZ a "user", while he is an Admin. The other two posts which Skittle deleted and Dirk reinstated might also have been part of your complaint, I didn't really know. Here is how I would have posted the issue (after having politely approached Dirk, of course):
User:DirkvdM launched a personal attack on Admin User:SCZenz under the "Sections of a Page" post on the Humanities Ref Desk on 1 December: [13].
The text of the attack is:
"Careful with irony if your answer may not be appropriate. Big bad SCZenz might delete your post."
This post, along with two others, was then deleted by User:Skittle: [14].
All three posts were then restored, by User:DirkvdM: [15].
I've already politely asked Dirk to remove the personal attack, and he refuses. Does everyone else agree that this post should be removed ? If so, perhaps it's time to request Admin assistance in this matter.
DISCLAIMER: THE ABOVE IS JUST A SAMPLE OF HOW TO POST A COMPLAINT, NOT A REAL COMPLAINT (DIRK REMOVED THE POST IN QUESTION VOLUNTARILY). StuRat 07:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Since the above discussion about deleting posts deemed 'inappropriate' is not being sufficiently constructive, let me restart with the most basic question.
How and according to which rules and whether anything should be done about inappropriate posts is another matter. First let's get an idea if the whole idea should be open to discussion in the first place. DirkvdM 12:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Oppose
Under conditions (as given below)
Support
Irrelevant: creating this poll shows a lack of understanding of wikipedia. There's discussion below, let's use that instead. Friday (talk) 02:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I might change my vote ('oppose') if there were some way to easily keep track of deletions. But that would then first have to be made possible. One way might be to have a separate history list that shows alterations to previous posts by other users than the one who wrote them. Another option might be to automatically send a message to that user if it happens. Then, it would not depend on the decency of the deleter whether this is done. Another option is that the rules of the ref desk are changed. DirkvdM 12:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
This is, i believe, an incorrect approach to the issue. It's a wiki, by default everything is subject to deletion. Questions and answers are not in the main namespace, but neither are they part of talk page discussion. Editors don't own their additions to the reference desk—no permission is necessary for removal.
The idea being put forth is that contributions to the desk are somehow sacrosanct—that there is some principle which forbids their removal. Why should off-topic discussions, bad jokes, and trolling be inviolable additions? If, as StuRat states, the "question is what type of things should be permitted to be deleted", then the default answer is everything. If we need some pratical guidelines to help out w/ editing on the desks, then make some proposals, try and build consensus, but the starting position for such a discussion is that all contributions are subject to deletion. "Should deletions at the reference desks be allowed?"—they are alowed, if some editor want's to take a contrary position then the burden is on them to convince the rest of us. EricR 15:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't disagree with the idea of deleting items from the RD in general. I have done it myself in the past, when there was trolling going on, such as one user who repeatedly posts nonsense about the movie Big Burger (or whatever it's called), and the person who keeps asking us how he should create telenovelas. But unless it's trolling, vandalism, threats, or disruption, then it should stay. I did not then, and do not now, think that Dirk's comment which got deleted was inappropriate. I do think the resulting edit war was silly, and the blocking was entirely inappropriate. But I won't vote in this poll. User:Zoe| (talk) 19:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and my comment on the poll above... Since polls can't overturn policy or the wiki process, I'm not voting. -- SCZenz 02:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Since the question annotation idea is only for the science desk, I implemented some wiki logic to make that text only appear on the science desk. On the other desks, a blurb about the new {{strict}} template appears. As per this brief discussion, it also links to an extremely newbie-friendly talk subpage for "actual" user input into the problem. We need to know what non-regulars think about the issue, and this coupled with the possible popularity of the strict tag could give us an idea of where to go from here. This idea is a cousin to the new ref desk idea, but it is exclusive meaning that if this works out we shouldn't have to implement a new desk at all. Also in defense of this way of doing it, it's quite a bit cleaner and more inline than a whole separate desk.
The science desk header, the other headers, and the strict template are demoed here.
Please viciously edit my text. It's probably grammatically wrong in every way and politically incorrect for using the masculine pronoun, so help me out. Also each line seems a bit brief so do try to expand it. But if you disagree on content, reply here; don't just remove stuff.
I did try to skirt the issue of humor in describing strict. The actual template makes it clear not to be frivolous in responding but the focus here is really on professionalism and wikipedia standards as a whole, not just with humor.
Oh and for now I'd like it to stay a good-faith thing of actually trying to offer more professional responses to strict-tagged questions, instead of having to edit other peoples' posts. Editing of other users' posts is a somewhat different matter and still subject to argument, so argue on! This feels like a good step though.
This will not solve the debate about censorship. However it will provide the same feedback about users' feelings about the quality of the reference desk as would a new desk, without the radical change. And who knows, maybe this will make the question of censorship moot.
-- froth T C 04:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
1) Since the user won't know how to add that template, we will need to have a way to generate it automatically when they pick a special "Ask a question under strict rules" button. Does anybody know how to add this to the mockup ? StuRat 07:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
2) I think it's time to drop the special intro section for Science that talks about marking good questions with stars. That issue died long ago. StuRat 07:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
3) We should discuss the meaning of "strict". Here are the possibilities:
* No jokes. * No conversations. * No signatures. * No off topic remarks. * No opinions. * No swearing. * References are required for all statements of fact. * All violations will be immediately deleted.
Of those, I think the consensus is against the "no signature, single collaborative answer" approach. While we all support jokes, in general, I would support a user who specifically requests no jokes. The "no conversations" one means you can only talk to the question asker, not other responders. Perhaps this is too strict, and we should say "no long side conversations", instead ? The "No opinions" rule leaves out many types of questions, but, I suppose that's OK, they just wouldn't use the template when asking for opinions. StuRat 07:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The templates don't take up much room, so I don't see why we can't show them here:
![]() | This user has indicated that they would prefer serious answers and may require references. Please refrain from adding jokes and opinions. |
{{ strict2}}
StuRat 07:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Well as for making it simple for users, it's pretty clear the way it is to say "just add {{strict}} to the end of your question." We could do something like this if it's really necessary, but unless we can get a developer to implement checkboxes (for a "Strict" checkbox next to the input box) that wouldn't really work. We could have a separate page for rules but I think everyone knows what I mean when I say serious/strict. Some guidelines might be helpful though; for example, I think that opinion can be valuable enough that it's worth the less encyclopedic nature (see my post here) while others (like sczenz apparently) think it's inappropriate. I like "no conversations" but you should be able to address others' comments (especially if they're wrong!). No signatures is a bad idea. No jokes is a given (although no swearing is kind of arbitrary). For the references thing I wasn't aiming for "all statements of fact"; there's a huge amount of info available at the RD that doesn't necessarily have a source (personal experience is a powerful asset in answering certain types of questions as well). It's just an "if possible, try to use sources because that's probably what the OP is looking for". This whole thing is to help OPs get the information they want the way they want it. If they want verifiability, nonsourced answers can still be valuable to the OP, if only to get general information about the topic.
If you still disagree with any of my points, please counterargue; I'm more than willing to compromise. What I don't want to see is all of the parties "compromising" away from neutral into a position where they fundamentally no longer can agree with it
Oh and can we get some quick consensus on what to do with the "good response annotation" logic? Should the good response annotation message be dropped altogether?
-- froth T C 08:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
{{ Serious}}
![]() | This user has indicated that they would prefer serious answers and may require references. Please refrain from adding jokes and opinions. |
Perhaps we should include a link to the strict rules directly in the template. StuRat 13:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Note: I did not start this as a section. This was in response to other discussion. But for whatever reason, people have taken to moving things around and creating lots of new sections. Friday (talk) 02:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I have a simple idea: let's assume anyone posting a RD question wants a useful answer. So, we give useful answers. If a question seems obviously not serious, we ignore it or remove it. Friday (talk) 16:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I prefer the concept of a 'General' RD as the first point of contact for a questioner. This would be a strict desk , but in depth answers couls be dealt with on the existing specific desks. A bit like being invited into the back office for more in depth comments/help/advice! Comments?-- Light current 22:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The primary complaint of that e-mail would seem to be discussion of certain sexual matters on the Ref Desk, with the implied suggestion that we should censor certain sexual content. That's an issue which has been discussed here, however, with some, like user:Anchoress, arguing that sexual matters are a legitimate item for discussion. I did suggest a Sexuality Ref Desk, so that such questions could be dealt with there only, thus protecting the rest of the readers from having to read about things they find to be distasteful. As for masturbation, it's both covered in Wikipedia proper and a category of questions where users would very much appreciate the ability to ask and get answers in an anonymous manner. Thus, we can do a lot of good by handling such questions here, in my opinion. StuRat 04:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
SCZenz, I am curious about that e-mail, the exact wording, why it was sent to you instead of posted here, etc. That being said, I'm using the "Would that offend my 70 year old prudish mother?" Test of Offensiveness. I'm not sure she would have been able to pick up on the joke; it was quite subtle. Certainly the word "masturbation" was not used, nor any synonym. It is plausibly deniable that such a reference was even intended. (see above) There have certainly been other things posted that offended even me. (They weren't sexual.) Of course, the community consensus on Wikipedia seems to be that any sort of censorship of potentially offensive material, except maybe for pedophilia or libel, is unacceptable. - THB 04:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
Just a couple of things to look out for to ensure that the archiving goes through with smoothly. There are a couple things that will confuse the bot at the moment, but they're easy to prevent if we're paying attention.
If a couple people keep an eye out for these things there should be no problems : )! freshofftheufo ΓΛĿЌ 01:36, 9 November 2006 (UTC)
If I look up something in the archived responses and find an erroneous response, or feel that an additional response would clarify or improve the quality, is it possible and or allowed to add something? Edison 06:24, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Time for another talk page archive by the looks of it-- 71.247.105.54 16:59, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
To allow any one person to decide what "might possibly be offensive to some potential reader somewhere" and allow to them to remove it (except in clear cases of WP:BITE, WP:CIVILITY etc) is in my opinion the start of individual CENSORSHIP. This would be the end of WP IMO 8-(.-- Light current 21:22, 12 November 2006 (UTC)
Neither am I unless it violates existing policy OR I can get someone else to agree rthat its not acceptable! 8-)-- Light current 00:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I started this section but was remiss in that I didn't add context immediately below the header. As a result, the purpose for which I added the header can and has been misunderstood so I'll add my intent.
This is a talk page and as such is subject to the talk page guideline of "Keep on topic: Talk pages are not for general conversation. Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal." I think however, that the guideline should not apply strictly to this particular talk page as it is not related to an article and am proposing that the guideline be interpreted more liberally here on this page. And further, as I have stated in the previous section, irrelevant or "silly" commentary should be ignored rather than debated at length. I'm definitely not suggesting that the RD itself be immune to the deletion of inappropriate comments. Just the opposite, because of the public face of the RD I feel that we should be quite strict about deleting inappropriate material there. -- hydnjo talk 19:23, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Non-serious questions about seagulls are no longer funny. They are vandalism, and should be reverted on sight. JBKramer 13:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, those were all my questions. What's your point? I love seagulls and I want to know as much as I can about them and I would quite like to own one as a pet, so I was asking in the place where I thought I could get some answers. -- 84.68.125.122 18:49, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Deleting questions as you see fit isn't your prerogative. Good questions have value regardless of the OP's intent. --
froth
T
C
04:02, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
It seems we have a new censor on board who thinks he can delete anything he wants! I dont think he can! 8-(-- Light current 21:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Just because a question is inappropriate doesn't mean we should delete it. On medical questions, for example, we can still say "That sounds serious, you'd better see a doctor immediately". Nobody will get sued for that advice, and it may even save a life. StuRat 22:20, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
The size of this talk page was really getting out of control-- VectorPotentialThe Reference Desk 19:19, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Surely the current activity of refdeskbot is wrong.. see http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=User_talk%3AMartinp23&diff=88532501&oldid=88528654
Currently because of this bot changes to discussions on the main page do not appear in the edit history. The bot operator admits other users have 'complained' and says it would be a simple matter to fix. However he says he requires consensus before making any changes to the bots behaviour and suggested trying here. (See User talk:87.102.21.223)
(Personally I note that the bot is operating incorrectly and should be stopped, but as it is only a minor niggle I should try the correct polite methods first before becoming angry.)
So please help. Thank you. 87.102.21.223 01:00, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
The sections at Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#Arranged marriage and Wikipedia:Reference Desk/Miscellaneous#Arranged Marriage got a bit too chatty rather than factual in their responses, as the questioner himself noted. If a question appears to be clear trolling, it can be removed or ignored; if it's possible trolling, feel free to ignore it. But in neither case should the question be used as an excuse to have fun with the questioner. -- SCZenz 19:57, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Has anyone else noticed but all the QAs for November 18 seem to have been excised. I'm not quite sure what to do about this, as I assume any reversion would delete all that has been added since? Clio the Muse 08:55, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Where did the question about who would win the French election go? I think the title was something like Royal vs. Sarkozy vs. LePen. Are we not supposed to talk politics because these discussion systematically turn into wars? I can't find a trace of it. Thank you Keria 10:45, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I remember seing a discussion on this page about whether we should keep or remove the funny (sarcastic ?) answers. Can someone tell me what the outcome was ? -- WikiCheng | Talk 12:50, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I was just wondering if the person who answers can put a mark (may be a smiley?), to indicate that it is not a serious answer. I am not sure if this suggestion has been considered (and discarded :-) )-- WikiCheng | Talk 07:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
My suggestion was an attempt to make theanswer not sound rude or serious. It is possible that a naive questioner will take a funny answer to be serious. On the other hand, if the question is Why is the black sea called black sea ?, the answer Because someone named it black sea would be taken to be rude, even if the answerer meant it to be funny. -- WikiCheng | Talk 08:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
How do I propose this to be implemented? Is there a page for this? -- WikiCheng | Talk 09:07, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Ironically, the addition of such a symbol will probably render all funny responses less funny, or possibly unfunny. Much like the way that lots of exclamation marks make astonishing things seem more mundane!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And funny things less funny. And unfunny things very annoying!!!!!!!!!!!!! -- Dweller 09:11, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't completely agree. A smiley at the end of a funnly line does not make it any less funny. May be a symbol at the beginning (indicating that what follows is supposed to be funny) does. I suppose that a smiley at the end of the answer should serve the purpose ? -- WikiCheng | Talk 09:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Well, I thought that a small smiley placed by the person who answers wouldn't hurt. After all, nobody else but the answerer decides if the answer is supposed to be serious one or a funny one. But if you think that this is not necessary, let us not have it -- WikiCheng | Talk 05:02, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
The average questioner will likely not be falling down laughing as editors try to top one another with funny answers to his question. Imagine if two or 3 RLRDL's (Real Life Reference Desk Librarians) turned your sincere question into a subject of their humor traded back and forth like an unfunny TV Celebrity Roast. On the other hand, there are experts who contribute their time for this unpaid service which adds value to the Wikipedia project. A little camaraderie is perhaps their only compensation for perhaps $100 per day of donated expertise. It is more acceptable if the question is well answered first, and if the humor is not in the nature of poking fun at the naivete of the questioner. Such meanness or sarcasm hurts Wikipedia and drives off newbies, and might well be deleted. Edison 16:46, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Please refer Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Science#The_Black_Sea. Can we have a better way of dealing with impolite questioners ? All of us are wasting our time in either admonishing the questioner or arguing among ourselves. I suggest that we put a one line (or a template?) stating something likeYour question / reply seems to be rude / impolite. As we don't like to answer such questions, this is the end of this discussion. Let us keep quite after this, unless ofcourse either the questioner rephrases his question or some kind hearted wikipedian answers the question in spite of the rudeness. -- WikiCheng | Talk 07:17, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree with likeYour question / reply seems to be rude / impolite. As we don't like to answer such questions, this is the end of this discussion. If you wish to re-ask the question please be polite. They can obviously ask again in a new section if they wish. As for the 'black sea case' the first reply was abrupt - but did give a link to the page. We are not here to write essays. This may be rude but the reply just confirms the initial impression of the questioner ie "Do my homework for me, I'm a lazy little brat".etc. Personally I'm sick of even attempting to excuse such people. 87.102.36.82 14:55, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
If you would ask your question in a polite manner, we may be able to help you!
I agree that ignoring such rudeness is the best way to deal with them. But do we ignore ? Someone is bound to reply to a rude comment / question and someone else feels like adding to it (moral support ?). After sometime, we have many comments and the questioner must be enjoying loking at them. My suggestion is to put a standard reply (that is why I suggested a template) after which everyone is expected to refrain from retaliating. But if somebody wants to answer the question in good faith, I am all for it. Taking all suggestions, can we make it Your question / reply seems to be rude / impolite. You are not likely to get any more answers. If you would ask your question in a polite manner, we may be able to help you!. In any case, this will not prevent the guy from re-asking the question nicely, getting an answer and then thanking with a I still got the answer I wanted from you f!@$ing b@$%^&*s... -- :-) WikiCheng | Talk 05:37, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
OK. -- WikiCheng | Talk 04:42, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I have a question about a film. Should it be asked here or on the humanities section?
-- Meno25 02:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Moved from the main reference desk and, partly, from THB's talk page. This is in regard to the question on the humanities desk about unjust laws (specifically, Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Humanities#Modern_day_unjust_laws,_institutions,_or_corporations_in_the_United_States?)
We have to be more accepting of opinion, as many fields in the humanities, language, and even soft sciences don't lend themselves to strictly factual answers. For example, the precise shades of meanings of words can't be documented scientifically. StuRat 12:17, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
(Discussion moved from project space Natgoo 10:17, 25 November 2006 (UTC))
So this page is now to be used for giving advice on obtaining the services of prostitutes? A real class act. Clio the Muse 01:16, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't like to see questions deleted. Whether the question is in poor taste or not is....a matter of taste. It is also irrelevant. I also believe that when a troll asks an answerable question, it should be answered, and everyone moves on, seems easier than deleting it. Behind a trolling question is a lack of knowledge about the subject, and I don't think the reason for asking a question is relevant. (To be clear, I don't believe this particular question is trolling at all.) LIke I read on another website today, if someone doesn't like a particular post, there's a little "X" up in the corner of their browser and they can click on it. - THB 07:32, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
A factual, neutral response to a question about a licit and legal service (in many parts of the world) is perfectly appropriate for the RD. Please stop insisting we share your offense, Clio - Anchoress handled the question very well. Natgoo 10:24, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
The fact that some people are enraged by sexual questions while others are perfectly fine with them to me suggests that we need a Sexuality Ref Desk, which the more sensitive readers could then avoid. StuRat 12:11, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
(question moved to WP:RD/C#a question about Dedicated servers)
I removed the section on "Tarka the otter" from the Humanities reference desk. It seemed to be a clear-cut case of a question calling for opinions, which was in fact not possible to answer factually, and it was asked by a user familiar with the reference desk and its proper purpose. The responses were likewise all discussion, which is again not what the reference desk is for. If I missed something, and someone can argue that this discussion involved actual facts, I will apologize for my error. -- SCZenz 16:49, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Is "What are the literary merits and demerits of Shakespeare's Henry IV, Part 1?" a valid RD question??? - THB 07:18, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Off-topic or otherwise useless content can be removed if some editor gets the urge to do so. This has been standard accepted practice for a long time, as far as I know. I agree with SCZenz that questions that can only be answered with opinion are one category of stuff we probably don't want to try to deal with here. (The reference desk is part of Wikipedia, after all.) Friday (talk) 20:33, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I do not know if the reference desk community handled Wikipedia:Reference desk/Miscellaneous#sick dreams correctly. It seems to me that the question requested advice, and was responded to with personal opinions about what to do (including what was more or less medical advice) rather than facts. Any thoughts on how we could have handled this better? -- SCZenz 00:22, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
The following is copied from RD/S and is an example of what we should not be doing, being unhelpful:
It is far better to move on to another question if you can't be helpful. -- hydnjo talk 03:24, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I took this accidentally-unhelpful answer, and discussion thereof, out in order to make it easier for the question-asker to find the answer to his question. -- SCZenz 03:26, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Splice After looking see what you think. 8-)-- Light current 01:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
In film technique or audio recording, splicing means to join the ends of two pieces of film or magnetic tape, for example, in editing.
-- Light current 01:45, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I believe the post in question has been removed from the RD, so there is no point in discussing it. Splice. The connection seems obvious [1]-- Light current 18:06, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
The following is an example from RD/S of an unhelpful response that reflects poorly on the RD:
That response is uncalled for. If you don't intend to be helpful then just move on to another question for which you can provide a helpful response, -- hydnjo talk 03:37, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
(unindent)Question: is there a relationship with madness and the historical views of normality?
I am doing a course on Abnormal Psychology, and have started to do this particular assignment, and I need a clue as to what it is asking for, as Im not sure if I understand the question, and dont want to write the assignment to find its not what they wanted at all - can anyone give me a clue?? thanks —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Kargus (talk • contribs) .[posted 14:59, 28 November 2006] (several responses skipped)
Recently, a concern has been raised about how the Reference Desk has become too humorous, and there have been contentions that certain items should be removed. Please see User:SCZenz/Reference desk removals for a proposal on this subject. User:SCZenz and I would like to attempt to garner a consensus on this topic. Do you think admins (or other editors) should remove inappropriate comments and/or threads from the Reference Desk? Please keep the discussion civil. User:Zoe| (talk) 18:27, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I've added my comments at User talk:SCZenz/Reference desk removals. StuRat 21:13, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
I'm not sure if this is correct or not, but I think the reference desk was originally to ask questions that you couldn't find in the encyclopedia itself. If this purpose hasn't changed, then anything that can be answered by actually USING wikipedia should just be deleted. Anything else should be kept, and before being deleted/archived, any relevant and correct answers should be transferred to the relevant articles. -- Chuq 07:10, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I see no significant cause for concern that the ref desk is running inefficiently or isn't carrying out its purpose. One thing I want to get straight is that the RD is an open forum and we're not trying to build an encyclopedia here! It makes no sense to try to apply rules written for an encyclopedia project to a reference desk. And no admin should be able to just pick out which rules they like out of the bunch and say that those are applicable to the RD. Well here's a rule I like: don't be a dick. But you know the movers and shakers are doing a fine job of creating an incredibly confusing and intricate problem, and I for one welcome our new admin overlords! "Mock submission," indeed -- froth T C 07:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
(Note: I posted this on the Admin NoticeBoard)
I missed the bulk of this discussion but as a regular on the subject board I want to make my feelings known.
Most importantly: While I appreciate SCZenz' desire to improve wikipedia and his efforts to do so, I strongly oppose arbitrary censorship. I, personally, am more than willing to put up with a *possibly irrelevant* penis joke (though it actually did have some relevance) in order to protect my own right to make comments as I see fit (fit as being relevant to the discussion at hand although perhaps not popular with some wikipedians).
Other than that, I think that many, if not most, of the contributors are experienced wikipedians and are perfectly capable of policing the desk and dealing with disruptive influences. But it important to remember that one reason many of us like to hang out there is the jokes and banter. Only a part of the reason to be sure but part nonetheless. The intellectual stimulation and, often the tangents, have value to us. If they don't then we can ignore them.
Also, I think that article talk page rules are not analoguous and do not apply. The purpose of article talk pages is to develop an article that complies with wikipedia policy; it is important that they honor those policies. The purpose of the reference desk is to either answer a question or steer the questioner toward the answer. The postings there, especially on the misc. desk, will often consist of original research and may not cite their sources. That is entirely appropriate. The Reference Desks are their own beasts and perhaps need additional policy developed. If such policy needs developing it must be developed through the normal review process.
-- Justanother 14:52, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Yes Ahem! Sorry! Am I f***** invisible/inaudible? I suggested guidelines weeks ago and everbody said we dont need em. The evidence now is that we do need em. Many people have now said we need 'em. So whats the score? If people think we need em lets continue the discussion I started. (If you dont mind)-- Light current 23:41, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Draft guidelines for the Reference desks (draft #1)
Copied from where they were originally.-- Light current 18:21, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Respondents should try to keep all answers 'on topic' if possible. -- Light current 18:25, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
This is an example of a question without a signed response. The question would be signed (like this will be), but the responses would not. So, here's the question. Why is there air? -- Rick Block ( talk) 22:38, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
Any further editing would be edits to the response - without a signature! and without "separate answers" being indicated. It's not a discussion thread, it's a single answer. So, if the answer was not complete somebody else might come along and expand the answer by editing it. -- Rick Block ( talk) 00:09, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
This response is using an experimental approach to answering questions where the answer is being treated like a mini-article. Please feel free to edit the response if you feel it is not sufficient, but do not sign your edits.
Rewiring may not be needed at all; just feed DC current to the unit and it will spin (for generator, not alternator). See Electric motor.
Rewiring may not be needed at all; just feed DC current to the unit and it will spin (for generator, not alternator). See Electric motor and electrical generator. Many generators through history have been motors as well. Thomas Edison's DC generators at Pearl Street, the first central power generating station in the US, had that characteristic, so that the speed governors had to be mechanically linked to keep one from running increasingly fast (being a motor) while the other ran increasingly slow (being a generator) when they were first connected in parallel. In todays AC power system, a generator whose steam supply is retired (like in a closed nuclear plant) can be run up to synchronous speed with a small pony engine, then paralleled to the AC system bus. It will run as a motor powered by the AC network, and by adjusting the field current, it can be a synchronous condensor, correcting the power factor and raising the system voltage to a desired level like a bank of capacitors. A simple permanent magnet DC motor, such as found in a toy, will generate DC if spun rapidly. A more complicated AC or DC motor may need rewiring of the field coil electric supply, which takes the place of the permanent magnets in a small toy motor. An AC generator needs some way to get up to near synchronous speed, such as a start winding which is disconected when it is up to speed or the aforementioned pony engine which can be mounted on the generator shaft. If full line voltage AC were connected to a stationary AC generator which was unmodified, it might draw heavy current and present a locked rotor condition and burn out.
See Electric motor and electrical generator. Rewiring may not be needed at all; just feed DC current to the unit and it will spin (for generator, not alternator). However, you need to know a bit more to get the results you are looking for and avoid burning something. You need some means of controlling the voltage and current applied to the generator/motor. I assume you are talking about a DC generator and not an AC generator or alternator. The easiest and perhaps the only way to deal with the field is to connect it to a separate power supply. Probably the simplest way to get the motor started is to put several resistors in series with the armature and progressively short them out as the motor comes up to speed. With an assortment of resistors and a voltmeter and an ammeter or two, you can probably figure out quite a bit, but you really need a textbook.
Many generators through history have been motors as well. Thomas Edison's DC generators at Pearl Street, the first central power generating station in the US, had that characteristic, so that the speed governors had to be mechanically linked to keep one from running increasingly fast (being a motor) while the other ran increasingly slow (being a generator) when they were first connected in parallel. In todays AC power system, a generator whose steam supply is retired (like in a closed nuclear plant) can be run up to synchronous speed with a small pony engine, then paralleled to the AC system bus. It will run as a motor powered by the AC network, and by adjusting the field current, it can be a synchronous condensor, correcting the power factor and raising the system voltage to a desired level like a bank of capacitors. A simple permanent magnet DC motor, such as found in a toy, will generate DC if spun rapidly. A more complicated AC or DC motor may need rewiring of the field coil electric supply, which takes the place of the permanent magnets in a small toy motor. An AC generator needs some way to get up to near synchronous speed, such as a start winding which is disconected when it is up to speed or the aforementioned pony engine which can be mounted on the generator shaft. If full line voltage AC were connected to a stationary AC generator which was unmodified, it might draw heavy current and present a locked rotor condition and burn out.
See Electric motor and electrical generator. Rewiring may not be needed at all; just feed DC current to the unit and it will spin (for generator, not alternator). However, you need to know a bit more to get the results you are looking for and avoid burning something. You need some means of controlling the voltage and current applied to the generator/motor. I assume you are talking about a DC generator and not an AC generator or alternator. The easiest and perhaps the only way to deal with the field is to connect it to a separate power supply. Probably the simplest way to get the motor started is to put several resistors in series with the armature and progressively short them out as the motor comes up to speed. With an assortment of resistors and a voltmeter and an ammeter or two, you can probably figure out quite a bit, but you really need a textbook.
Many generators through history have been motors as well. Thomas Edison's DC generators at Pearl Street, the first central power generating station in the US, had that characteristic, so that the speed governors had to be mechanically linked to keep one from running increasingly fast (being a motor) while the other ran increasingly slow (being a generator) when they were first connected in parallel. In todays AC power system, a generator whose steam supply is retired (like in a closed nuclear plant) can be run up to synchronous speed with a small pony engine, then paralleled to the AC system bus. It will run as a motor powered by the AC network, and by adjusting the field current, it can be a synchronous condensor, correcting the power factor and raising the system voltage to a desired level like a bank of capacitors. A simple permanent magnet DC motor, such as found in a toy, will generate DC if spun rapidly. A more complicated AC or DC motor may need rewiring of the field coil electric supply, which takes the place of the permanent magnets in a small toy motor. An AC generator needs some way to get up to near synchronous speed, such as a start winding which is disconected when it is up to speed or the aforementioned pony engine which can be mounted on the generator shaft. If full line voltage AC were connected to a stationary AC generator which was unmodified, it might draw heavy current and present a locked rotor condition and burn out.
See Electric motor and electrical generator. Rewiring may not be needed at all; just feed DC current to the unit and it will spin (for generator, not alternator). However, you need to know a bit more to get the results you are looking for and avoid burning something. You need some means of controlling the voltage and current applied to the generator/motor. I assume you are talking about a DC generator and not an AC generator or alternator. The easiest and perhaps the only way to deal with the field is to connect it to a separate power supply. Probably the simplest way to get the motor started is to put several resistors in series with the armature and progressively short them out as the motor comes up to speed. With an assortment of resistors and a voltmeter and an ammeter or two, you can probably figure out quite a bit, but you really need a textbook.
Many generators through history have been motors as well. Thomas Edison's DC generators at Pearl Street, the first central power generating station in the US, had that characteristic, so that the speed governors had to be mechanically linked to keep one from running increasingly fast (being a motor) while the other ran increasingly slow (being a generator) when they were first connected in parallel. In todays AC power system, a generator whose steam supply is retired (like in a closed nuclear plant) can be run up to synchronous speed with a small pony engine, then paralleled to the AC system bus. It will run as a motor powered by the AC network, and by adjusting the field current, it can be a synchronous condensor, correcting the power factor and raising the system voltage to a desired level like a bank of capacitors. A simple permanent magnet DC motor, such as found in a toy, will generate DC if spun rapidly. A more complicated AC or DC motor may need rewiring of the field coil electric supply, which takes the place of the permanent magnets in a small toy motor. An AC generator needs some way to get up to near synchronous speed, such as a start winding which is disconected when it is up to speed or the aforementioned pony engine which can be mounted on the generator shaft. If full line voltage AC were connected to a stationary AC generator which was unmodified, it might draw heavy current and present a locked rotor condition and burn out.
The way it turns out is that each time I check back to learn more about the subject I need to read the entire answer, top to bottom, in order to find out what has been edited in/out, if anything, from my previous visit. A particularly bad thing if two or more editors disagree. And damn it, now I can't even throw up my hands in despair and go to Google-answers and spend $2 for a stable response! -- hydnjo talk 15:38, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I suggest we create a new "Serious Ref Desk", as a test:
Let's create it in parallel to the current Ref Desks and see how it goes. We will need Admins or others to go through the desk frequently and be very strict with enforcing the rules (there's no shortage of Admins twitching to do just this). StuRat 11:56, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I disagree. -- Dweller 18:14, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I contribute to the reference desk as an identified, albeit anonymous individual; and thus I would wish it to remain. I have no desire to see what I write corrupted and bowlderized, like so many other pages in Wikipedia, to which I make no input. Here I am free from the POV warriors, and I can make a valid contribution within the limits of my expertise, and, I hope, guide people to some deeper understanding of the matter under consideration. I do not always expect people to agree with the points I make, but I hope to stimulate some creative thought. I do not want to be part of a collective mass of undifferentiated opinion, or forms of Stalinist diktat. Therefore, I am completely opposed to the above suggestions, which I consider misguided and unworkable. Clio the Muse 12:12, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't personally want that type of Serious Ref Desk, either, but we seem to be getting more and more pressure from Admins to do just that. We should therefore at least try it, and see if it works or not. StuRat 12:33, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
I most definitely do not speak for all admins (and, anyone who claims they do is lying), so please don't generalize my comments to "admins" (and this whole us/them thing is really starting to piss me off - in nearly all contexts admins are simply users like any other whose opinions should carry no more weight than those of any other experienced user [admins as a group include a high percentage of extremely experienced users]). I've suggested an experiment, which I freely admit would be a fairly radical change. The point is not to suppress individuality but to change the nature of the RD away from chatroom into somethng that without trying it I don't think anyone can precisely describe.
As an unsigned comment this would be subject to editing. But what would be the point of changing this comment? Perhaps you disagree that he killed several million people, so you change it to "allegedly killed". Perhaps you dislike including Walmart in the top five evils the world has ever known so you delete it. Maybe this annoys me and I add it back. Now you and I are edit warring and we need to resolve our respective differences. Maybe I ask you if you can live with Walmart being in the list with a smiley implying I'm really not serious (offline, on talk pages). The point is our discussion is not relevant to the answer and (IMO, as a user) shouldn't be recorded inline as part of the answer.
Am I suggesting answers have to be entirely serious?
No.
-- Rick Block ( talk) 15:31, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
Some people commented that the RD is the first part of wikipedia that some newbies see. This might explain a lot- newbies frequently don't understand what we do here. If the first thing they saw was the RD, this is perfectly understandable.
Wikipedia is not:
Yet, from what I've seen, the reference desk is these things. Why are we intentionally giving people such wrong ideas about the project? If the reference desk were only for questions about Wikipedia (call it the "Help Desk" instead perhaps- whoops, we already have exactly that) these problems might go away. Friday (talk) 15:43, 30 November 2006 (UTC)
The attractive nuisance analogy is very apropos; the key similarity being that the "nuisance" has value but has not been properly managed. We do not, then, do away with pools, trampolines, and piles of sand; we ensure that they are used safely and protected against misuse.
Let's take a look at what a newbie would see starting with the main page:
Reference desk — Serving as virtual librarians, Wikipedia volunteers tackle your questions on a wide range of subjects.
Wow, cool! Maybe they know how to cook this fish my husband caught.
Miscellaneous: Subjects that don't fit in any of the other categories
Yeah, that is probably the place.
How to ask a question: A real lot of tiny text. Basically don't ask homework questions in full and no medical/legal advice.
All right! "Hi what is the best way to cook this fish my husband just handed me. I think it is a trout."
Helpful wikipedians that love to cook trout jump in with their tips and favorite recipes; a few may link to an off-site recipe or to a term like fillet or saute. But basically it is all opinion and experience and forum and how-to and decidedly non-encyclopedic and totally in compliance with the header guidelines.
That tells me that the reference desks are NOT articles; they are part of the wikipedia community, they are a discussion forum. They are not subject to WP:NOT which says "The above guidelines apply to articles (emphasis added) on Wikipedia. These [below] guidelines apply to Wikipedia discussions."
Regarding the referenced user; he clearly misused the reference desk on at least one early occasion that I checked, see here. Was he corrected then? I see two more recent warnings on his talk page so hopefully his behavior will change. My point being that "opinion and experience and forum and how-to" are not the problem; the problem, if there is a problem, is our own failure to correct disruptive users promptly. -- Justanother 22:00, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
(Copied from above discussion by StuRat 16:01, 30 November 2006 (UTC))
I'm probably going against years of established practice here, but I fail to see how the reference desk adds encyclopedic value. It's a time-waster- why don't we just ditch the whole thing? Friday (talk) 18:36, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
With 7 votes to keep, and none to discontinue (not even the person who actually made the suggestion), I think we can quickly put this suggestion to rest. "The motion is soundly defeated". StuRat 01:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
He decided he didn't like the poll below, so he just deleted it. This isn't allowed under talk desk rules, right ? I said so on his talk page, but guess what, he deleted it there, as well. The applicable rule is at WP:TPG:
"Don't edit others' comments: Refrain from editing others' comments without their permission (with the exception of prohibited material such as libel and personal details). It is not necessary to bring talk pages to publishing standards, so there is no need to correct typing errors, grammar, etc. It tends to irritate the users whose comments you are correcting. Never edit someone's words to change their meaning."
StuRat 10:40, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The rule is "Refrain from editing others' comments without their permission", changing the meaning is just one possible way to edit them. As for deleting your comments, you added your comments in the same edits where you deleted the comments of others. I don't know of any way to undo the deletion without also taking your comments out with them, as I explained on your talk page, which you then promptly deleted. I put your comments back in after, and promised I won't delete any comments you make that don't also include the deletion of other people's comments/votes. StuRat 10:52, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
If polls are very silly, they may be deleted :-) In general polls are used to gauge whether or not we have consensus. If you haven't really tried to form a consensus first, then there's no point, and the poll can even turn out to be divisive (and see some of the somewhat belligerant language above for an example of that). Kim Bruning 15:44, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The discussion is slowing down a bit, indicating that most arguments have been put forward. It seems to me the most workable solution is to start a test ref desk where deleting or moving of 'unfit' questions and answers is allowed. How exactly this should be done can then be tested there. This is the proposal at 'Proposed "Serious Ref Desk" Test' and 'Sui generis' above, without the 'no signatures' and 'references required' (let's not be too specific yet). DirkvdM 09:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Opinions (poll closed, please don't supply further opinions)
Further discussion
What if the consensus is to deal with this via a poll? -- Dweller 10:30, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The problem is there is nowhere near a consensus, so a decision has to be reached somehow. I stated above that I am in favour of trying this. I just don't think it will work, but to find that out it has to be tried. The point is to provide a solution for the polarisation. Like I said it will get those for and against deletion out of each other's hair. This will provide a transitional phase in which emotions can settle down a bit and the idea can be tested. Note that I might become active at that desk too, just to give it a try. Maybe people will manage to find ways to get it to work (most notably keeping tabs on the changes) if they are not disturbed by feuds. It's not to get rid of the deletionists. It's only temporary. If the idea works better than the original ref desks, then it might get implemented everywhere. DirkvdM 11:36, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
My a-bit-more-detailed explanation for my oppose above: this issue has nothing to do with experimenting with a new desk. This is clearly a question of policy not dissatisfaction with responses. We don't agree on policy, fine- then we discuss policy to no end (as has been going on, and the topic shows absolutely no signs of exhaustion). But what would a new experimental desk prove? Answers won't come faster. Answers won't come better. Answers will only come without jokes. I doubt it would catch on, but even if it did the most such a desk could prove is that posters don't like humor. But it's irrelevant, it's a question of policy not of popularity -- froth T C 19:57, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
With four people voting for the above test proposal (and Radiant apparently leaning towards the test) I thought this was enough encouragement to create a mockup of what it might look like. The only changes relative to current Ref Desks are at the top and bottom right (and the removal of the "Sign your posts" rule).
I've created a mockup we can look at here:
Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Strict
And the template is here, in case you want to make any modifications:
Wikipedia:Reference_desk/Strict/How_to_ask_and_answer
I haven't created any link from the main Ref Desk page yet, since I'd like to get more feedback, first. Also, this gives us time to work out any changes we want to make before the test is put into place. StuRat 13:12, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Hmm, as a quick post-hoc note, the above poll is useless for forming consensus as no actual basis for the peoples' opinions has been provided. It's now part of the running discussion, so I won't delete it. Instead I'll let it stand as an example of how not to do it :-P Kim Bruning 15:47, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
I adding "No swearing" to the rules, and changed "No double posts" to "No triple posts", in case they want to double post between the Strict Ref Desk and one of the regular Ref Desks (for a comparison of the type of answers they get). StuRat 04:57, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
This "Serious Reference Desk" sounds like a type of WP:POV fork to me. - THB 07:46, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
What we have here is some disagreement over how to work the reference desk. Of course, such issues are not resolved by shutting it down entirely (besides, we're all volunteers here, and if people volunteer to answer questions there would be no point in stopping them). This is also not resolved by creating several reference desks, because that just increases the confusion.
Instead, we could create a simple and concise list of things that are or are not appropriate here. It doesn't have to be exhaustive. For instance we probably don't want a large picture of genitalia on here, and if a new user accidentally posts a new article here, we should just remove it and place it in article space. If there are other things that people argue don't belong here, let's talk about it. Some people say that jokes are inappropriate, but I'm sure there's the occasional question here that's so weird it just begs for a funny response, and frankly you can't legislate against humor anyway since it's human nature(yes, yes, we had a policy proposal to outlaw sarcasm a couple weeks ago... that was rather strange).
I've seen the suggestion of not using signatures on refdesk responses. That may be a good idea, the best idea to test that is if some refdesk regulars stop using their signatures here and see if it catches on; no harm done either way.
Think this would help? Comments welcome. ( Radiant) 10:41, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
The no signatures sounds good. Making something new which you hope is better than before is almost never disruptive, so " Don't disrupt wikipedia to make a point" won't apply :-) Kim Bruning
It strikes me that to get a genuine test we would have to apply the rules to one of the existing desks, rather than create a new desk. This would determine how the rules/system worked in actual situations, and the page could carry a notice saying that it was trialing an experimental method. If we created a new desk, it would have disproportionate numbers of a)confused people b)people generally involved with the reference desk who want to test it. Average question-askers would mostly ask at the existing desks, because they are clearly marked with what sort of question they are for. If you wanted a vigorous test of a change, I would try it on the Misc desk, since that contains the most buffoonery at the moment. If something works there, it should work overall. Skittle 22:06, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
1) People used to using that Desk would not know about the rule changes. Being a new desk, with the name "Strict", they might expect some stricter rules and actually read the rules.
2) It's not fair to apply to rules retroactively, so this would leave earlier posts following different rules than later posts, which is bound to confuse the users.
3) If the test fails, that is, it just doesn't work to get good answers (most likely due to lack of responders willing to follow the strict rules), then we've lowered the opinion of many Wikipedia users. If it's a "test" Desk, then they don't have such high expectations.
4) I've proposed suspending the "no double posts" rule for the duration of the test, to allow questions to be posted on both the "Strict" Ref Desk and one of the regular Ref Desks. This will allow for a test and control, to best compare which set of rules provides the best answers to the same question. StuRat 03:13, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
Hang on, wait wait, we're going to make a new "no fun" ref desk? Erm, I haven't looked into this in detail yet, but... why would people volunteer to do boring, none-fun work?
Perhaps we can we also make a split that requires all replys to be in haiku, limeric, iambic pentameter or at least rhyming doggerel form? <innocent look>
We can then compare and see which of the three is most popular. <very innocent look>
Kim Bruning 16:47, 2 December 2006 (UTC) ...even though I've always had the greatest trouble getting my verse to scan.
Instead of making a new desk to guage user reponse, why not just make a nice subpage to this talk page and ask in the RD headers for input from posters on whether they appreciate humor in responses. The opinion of questioners is of limited value as I pointed out above but this seems like a better idea than a whole new desk. A discussion with actual questioners would be of far greater value than just counting the number of people that use the new desk, and (if we do it the way that the mockup did) users are just as likely to participate in the discussion page as they are to participate in the new desk -- froth T C 20:12, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The whole "Serious RD" appears to be a WP:POINT violation. Keep one RD and apply WP existing policies to maintain the quality of answers. I hate the idea of anonymous answers provided by anyone in the world with access to a computer. How can it possibly improve the quality of the answers? How can the person posting a question form an opinion of the qualifications of the responder? Above there was a question copied to this talk page. Someone had a technical question about motors and generators. The questioner could easily check and see that both responders are (or at least claim to be) electrical engineers, and that they have contributed to numerous technical articles. With the proposal, the answer could be any IP person pranking the questioner. Bad idea. As is, I spend a fair amout of time searching the history file to identify anonymous editors, because that helps to out pranksters who are posting a whole series of dubious questions just to waste the time of those willing to answer serious questions. I do not see what is wrong with someone doing hard work to research and post a good answer getting credit for it, or with readily identifying pranksters. Edison 20:58, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
I think that signed comments on the reference desk will lead to meatball:VestedContributors. WikiWikiWeb:DocumentMode is the objective of wikipedia. If at the ref desk we find extra sources or what have you, documentmode will make it easier to update articles than WikiWikiWeb:ThreadMode will. Kim Bruning 18:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
After taking a few days to think, and reviewing the above discussion, I have a number of comments.
First, the discussion above is largely fruitless, here's why:
Second, the reference desk doesn't really need to be reformed! This is my big insight from a few days of thought.
Third, what I think should be done now:
That's everything, hopefully. I'm not gonna get drawn into a big discussion on this, I'm just gonna go ahead and follow my own plan. If others join me, it will work in time—or a more formal solution will be sought in regard to individual users who are creating problems here. -- SCZenz 02:06, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
First class, SCZenz, and eminently sensible. All a good reference desk needs is knowledge, good sense and good faith. There will always be people around with these basic qualities to make the whole thing work as it should. Clio the Muse 02:55, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
and1) Be thorough. Please provide as much of the answer as you are able to.
If SCZenz wants to point out when the board goes too far astray and gently bring it back on point then I do not object. But a gentle reminder please, not a heavy hand on the delete key (or even a light one - just leave that key alone, please). Though WP:NPA violations should be dealt with in a more appropriate manner than "gently". -- Justanother 03:22, 3 December 2006 (UTC)2) Be polite. to users, especially ones new to Wikipedia. A little fun is fine, but don't be rude.
Left. All due respect but I think that if you are going to the effort to answer a questioun then you should answer it and not play a game with the questioner. I guess we should assume that the person that asked the question is only capable of putting the question here and reading the answer here so give them the answer if you have it. And if you do not have a complete answer then give them what you have. Only in the rare case that it is way too much to put here then summarize and link to the full answer. -- Justanother 03:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
You're right about the rules being fine as they are. You might even be right about the attitude of the RD as a social thing. However this isn't a big issue; infractions are minor and infrequent. Also they don't detract at all from the effectiveness of the RD. Of course if they're deliberately misleading this is a problem but it's a problem best addressed by a reply, not by clearing their response! Answers should never be edited or deleted in any way- with some extreme exceptions that's basically how it's worked in the past and it's worked fine. Yes there may be some problems but again it's not a big deal and to make things simple and keep from ruffling a lot of feathers, just don't do anything -- froth T C 05:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Edison responded to this opinion, and call for discussion, correctly—by pointing out that Wikipedia is not to be used as a soap box. There was no request for information, so there was no other way to answer. But then other users followed up by arguing the point, resulting in the misuse of the ref desk as a discussion forum in violation with WP:NOT. This should not have been done. -- SCZenz 05:32, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
SCZenz, here is the problem, as I see it: First, you make a seemingly reasonable statement like: "The reference desk rules work fine (with even a modicum of common sense), and a few minor discussions don't hurt anything anyway". That's fine, but then you go on the attack for what was "a few minor discussions". In other words, you say you will only go after egregious examples, but you don't, you go after very minor issues, as you did when you blocked Dirk. If you would actually do as you would say, your actions would be a lot less objectionable. I believe you are motivated by a need to "fix problems" that leads you to see problems where none actually exist. StuRat 07:10, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Some quick comments: 1. the argument posted for comment is not original research, but well-known (to philosophers), and goes back at least to A. J. Ayer. I therefore don't see a problem with discussing it, just as we might offer interpretations of and responses to other theories and arguments (see for instance the nearby discussion of a passage of Leibniz). 2. The question was about two subjects which are pretty clearly humanities: the philosophy of religion and the philosophy of science. It was therefore in the right place. 3. More generally: this discussion is being muddied by an unexamined, and in my view unhelpful, distinction between 'fact' and 'opinion'. The important distinction, surely, is between answers which merely assert something without support (from empirical evidence and/or reasoning) and answers which do give support? What counts as a mere opinion, then, is to do with how one constructs an answer, not with the content of the question. Yours, Sam Clark 13:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Exploring the issue brought up by the OP is one of the greatest advantages of the RD. If I'm doing research on samurais and I ask "how long are samurai swords" and someone answers, somebody adds more detail, and before you know it I have pages of facts and references all about the making, use, and characteristics of samurai swords! Let it stand SCZenz -- froth T C 23:01, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I see the reference desk is now being used to carry on a petty-minded campaign against another user, who is mentioned by name. This is not a joke-it is bad form and bad practice, the very things we must avoid if any credibility is to be retained. I will not delete this: I delete nothing, but I would request some administrative intervention. Clio the Muse 07:02, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Also, not knowing when I'm speaking with an Admin is a common problem, I do wish they could identify themselves uniformly, like with a special signature. How do you quickly identify whether a person is an Admin or not ? StuRat 08:49, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Ok, here's a link to the question: [10]. StuRat 08:53, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
And here's the deletion by User:Skittle: [11]. StuRat 08:57, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
And here's the revert of the deletion, by User:DirkvdM: [12]. StuRat 08:59, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Now for my interpretation of what happened:
This question was asked:
How do you add a section?
These answers were added, then deleted:
Great, one gold star awarded. Well done! 87.102.8.53 19:32, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
See Self-fulfilling prophecy or Wikipedia:New contributors' help page - which ever applies.
Careful with irony if your answer may not be appropriate. Big bad SCZenz might delete your post. DirkvdM 09:26, 2 December 2006 (UTC)
The first answer threw me, at first, but then I realized they are assuming the user now knows how to add a section, since they just did so when adding the question. However, I don't agree, since they might have used the special "Ask a question" link, and not know how to use the "+" sign after Edit to add a section, or how to manually add one using multiple equals signs during an edit. StuRat 09:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
The second answer seems based on that same assumption, although they did point the user to the correct page for this question.
The third answer probably isn't appropriate there, as we want to protect users from having to read about deletionist fights on Wikipedia.
As to whether I find any of these responses so bad that they need to be immediately removed, no, I don't. StuRat 09:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
OK, I get it now, but let me explain my confusion over the issue, so you understand the problem for next time. First, the title of this section is "Petty War". Now, a war has combatants on both sides, and, since SCZ did not appear to be involved in this edit, that term didn't appear to apply between him and Dirk. On the other hand, a very short "edit war" did erupt between Dirk and Skittle, so that's what I thought you were talking about. Now, as for your post:
This also confused me, because you called SCZ a "user", while he is an Admin. The other two posts which Skittle deleted and Dirk reinstated might also have been part of your complaint, I didn't really know. Here is how I would have posted the issue (after having politely approached Dirk, of course):
User:DirkvdM launched a personal attack on Admin User:SCZenz under the "Sections of a Page" post on the Humanities Ref Desk on 1 December: [13].
The text of the attack is:
"Careful with irony if your answer may not be appropriate. Big bad SCZenz might delete your post."
This post, along with two others, was then deleted by User:Skittle: [14].
All three posts were then restored, by User:DirkvdM: [15].
I've already politely asked Dirk to remove the personal attack, and he refuses. Does everyone else agree that this post should be removed ? If so, perhaps it's time to request Admin assistance in this matter.
DISCLAIMER: THE ABOVE IS JUST A SAMPLE OF HOW TO POST A COMPLAINT, NOT A REAL COMPLAINT (DIRK REMOVED THE POST IN QUESTION VOLUNTARILY). StuRat 07:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Since the above discussion about deleting posts deemed 'inappropriate' is not being sufficiently constructive, let me restart with the most basic question.
How and according to which rules and whether anything should be done about inappropriate posts is another matter. First let's get an idea if the whole idea should be open to discussion in the first place. DirkvdM 12:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Oppose
Under conditions (as given below)
Support
Irrelevant: creating this poll shows a lack of understanding of wikipedia. There's discussion below, let's use that instead. Friday (talk) 02:27, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I might change my vote ('oppose') if there were some way to easily keep track of deletions. But that would then first have to be made possible. One way might be to have a separate history list that shows alterations to previous posts by other users than the one who wrote them. Another option might be to automatically send a message to that user if it happens. Then, it would not depend on the decency of the deleter whether this is done. Another option is that the rules of the ref desk are changed. DirkvdM 12:35, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
This is, i believe, an incorrect approach to the issue. It's a wiki, by default everything is subject to deletion. Questions and answers are not in the main namespace, but neither are they part of talk page discussion. Editors don't own their additions to the reference desk—no permission is necessary for removal.
The idea being put forth is that contributions to the desk are somehow sacrosanct—that there is some principle which forbids their removal. Why should off-topic discussions, bad jokes, and trolling be inviolable additions? If, as StuRat states, the "question is what type of things should be permitted to be deleted", then the default answer is everything. If we need some pratical guidelines to help out w/ editing on the desks, then make some proposals, try and build consensus, but the starting position for such a discussion is that all contributions are subject to deletion. "Should deletions at the reference desks be allowed?"—they are alowed, if some editor want's to take a contrary position then the burden is on them to convince the rest of us. EricR 15:12, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
I don't disagree with the idea of deleting items from the RD in general. I have done it myself in the past, when there was trolling going on, such as one user who repeatedly posts nonsense about the movie Big Burger (or whatever it's called), and the person who keeps asking us how he should create telenovelas. But unless it's trolling, vandalism, threats, or disruption, then it should stay. I did not then, and do not now, think that Dirk's comment which got deleted was inappropriate. I do think the resulting edit war was silly, and the blocking was entirely inappropriate. But I won't vote in this poll. User:Zoe| (talk) 19:18, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Oh, and my comment on the poll above... Since polls can't overturn policy or the wiki process, I'm not voting. -- SCZenz 02:14, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
Since the question annotation idea is only for the science desk, I implemented some wiki logic to make that text only appear on the science desk. On the other desks, a blurb about the new {{strict}} template appears. As per this brief discussion, it also links to an extremely newbie-friendly talk subpage for "actual" user input into the problem. We need to know what non-regulars think about the issue, and this coupled with the possible popularity of the strict tag could give us an idea of where to go from here. This idea is a cousin to the new ref desk idea, but it is exclusive meaning that if this works out we shouldn't have to implement a new desk at all. Also in defense of this way of doing it, it's quite a bit cleaner and more inline than a whole separate desk.
The science desk header, the other headers, and the strict template are demoed here.
Please viciously edit my text. It's probably grammatically wrong in every way and politically incorrect for using the masculine pronoun, so help me out. Also each line seems a bit brief so do try to expand it. But if you disagree on content, reply here; don't just remove stuff.
I did try to skirt the issue of humor in describing strict. The actual template makes it clear not to be frivolous in responding but the focus here is really on professionalism and wikipedia standards as a whole, not just with humor.
Oh and for now I'd like it to stay a good-faith thing of actually trying to offer more professional responses to strict-tagged questions, instead of having to edit other peoples' posts. Editing of other users' posts is a somewhat different matter and still subject to argument, so argue on! This feels like a good step though.
This will not solve the debate about censorship. However it will provide the same feedback about users' feelings about the quality of the reference desk as would a new desk, without the radical change. And who knows, maybe this will make the question of censorship moot.
-- froth T C 04:09, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
1) Since the user won't know how to add that template, we will need to have a way to generate it automatically when they pick a special "Ask a question under strict rules" button. Does anybody know how to add this to the mockup ? StuRat 07:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
2) I think it's time to drop the special intro section for Science that talks about marking good questions with stars. That issue died long ago. StuRat 07:39, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
3) We should discuss the meaning of "strict". Here are the possibilities:
* No jokes. * No conversations. * No signatures. * No off topic remarks. * No opinions. * No swearing. * References are required for all statements of fact. * All violations will be immediately deleted.
Of those, I think the consensus is against the "no signature, single collaborative answer" approach. While we all support jokes, in general, I would support a user who specifically requests no jokes. The "no conversations" one means you can only talk to the question asker, not other responders. Perhaps this is too strict, and we should say "no long side conversations", instead ? The "No opinions" rule leaves out many types of questions, but, I suppose that's OK, they just wouldn't use the template when asking for opinions. StuRat 07:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The templates don't take up much room, so I don't see why we can't show them here:
![]() | This user has indicated that they would prefer serious answers and may require references. Please refrain from adding jokes and opinions. |
{{ strict2}}
StuRat 07:42, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Well as for making it simple for users, it's pretty clear the way it is to say "just add {{strict}} to the end of your question." We could do something like this if it's really necessary, but unless we can get a developer to implement checkboxes (for a "Strict" checkbox next to the input box) that wouldn't really work. We could have a separate page for rules but I think everyone knows what I mean when I say serious/strict. Some guidelines might be helpful though; for example, I think that opinion can be valuable enough that it's worth the less encyclopedic nature (see my post here) while others (like sczenz apparently) think it's inappropriate. I like "no conversations" but you should be able to address others' comments (especially if they're wrong!). No signatures is a bad idea. No jokes is a given (although no swearing is kind of arbitrary). For the references thing I wasn't aiming for "all statements of fact"; there's a huge amount of info available at the RD that doesn't necessarily have a source (personal experience is a powerful asset in answering certain types of questions as well). It's just an "if possible, try to use sources because that's probably what the OP is looking for". This whole thing is to help OPs get the information they want the way they want it. If they want verifiability, nonsourced answers can still be valuable to the OP, if only to get general information about the topic.
If you still disagree with any of my points, please counterargue; I'm more than willing to compromise. What I don't want to see is all of the parties "compromising" away from neutral into a position where they fundamentally no longer can agree with it
Oh and can we get some quick consensus on what to do with the "good response annotation" logic? Should the good response annotation message be dropped altogether?
-- froth T C 08:10, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
{{ Serious}}
![]() | This user has indicated that they would prefer serious answers and may require references. Please refrain from adding jokes and opinions. |
Perhaps we should include a link to the strict rules directly in the template. StuRat 13:08, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Note: I did not start this as a section. This was in response to other discussion. But for whatever reason, people have taken to moving things around and creating lots of new sections. Friday (talk) 02:43, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
I have a simple idea: let's assume anyone posting a RD question wants a useful answer. So, we give useful answers. If a question seems obviously not serious, we ignore it or remove it. Friday (talk) 16:36, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
I prefer the concept of a 'General' RD as the first point of contact for a questioner. This would be a strict desk , but in depth answers couls be dealt with on the existing specific desks. A bit like being invited into the back office for more in depth comments/help/advice! Comments?-- Light current 22:44, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
The primary complaint of that e-mail would seem to be discussion of certain sexual matters on the Ref Desk, with the implied suggestion that we should censor certain sexual content. That's an issue which has been discussed here, however, with some, like user:Anchoress, arguing that sexual matters are a legitimate item for discussion. I did suggest a Sexuality Ref Desk, so that such questions could be dealt with there only, thus protecting the rest of the readers from having to read about things they find to be distasteful. As for masturbation, it's both covered in Wikipedia proper and a category of questions where users would very much appreciate the ability to ask and get answers in an anonymous manner. Thus, we can do a lot of good by handling such questions here, in my opinion. StuRat 04:09, 5 December 2006 (UTC)
SCZenz, I am curious about that e-mail, the exact wording, why it was sent to you instead of posted here, etc. That being said, I'm using the "Would that offend my 70 year old prudish mother?" Test of Offensiveness. I'm not sure she would have been able to pick up on the joke; it was quite subtle. Certainly the word "masturbation" was not used, nor any synonym. It is plausibly deniable that such a reference was even intended. (see above) There have certainly been other things posted that offended even me. (They weren't sexual.) Of course, the community consensus on Wikipedia seems to be that any sort of censorship of potentially offensive material, except maybe for pedophilia or libel, is unacceptable. - THB 04:39, 5 December 2006 (UTC)