The quickpoll process was originally implemented as a 30-day trial. We have now had 30 days to evaluate whether this process is beneficial. It seems appropriate for us to consider the experience and decide whether we want to continue using quickpolls.
Question: Do you think we should continue using quickpolls?
The quickpolls policy currently allows quickpolls when:
If you support quickpolls for some of these situations and oppose them for others, please indicate in your vote the situations for which you support quickpolls.
This space is to consider possible changes to improve quickpolls
I'd like to see some form of automation for condorcett voting --this alllows ranking of several alternitives. Hottly disputed subjects might also benifit from a split page line by line "rebuttal" or alternate opinion format wiki deuling? But I am interested in trolproofing the concept. perhaps with "voting and forking" of "sections and versions". It seems appealing to let memes rise on their own. -ws
Quickpolls are polls among Wikipedia regulars on issues that need to be quickly resolved. Can someone explain to me why review of sysop actions should be done in a Quickpoll anyway? We have Wikipedia:Requests for review of admin actions AND Wikipedia:Possible misuses of sysop rights for reviewing sysop abuses. How often are we going to need emergency desysoping? The only cases I can think of involve a sysop going on some sort of rampage, and in that situation you could Quickpoll and ban, just like you'd do for any other user. Isomorphic 19:32, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Three reverts rule - if that will be enforced diligently, uncooperative users will just do revert-edits instead of normal reverts, e.g. change word order slightly. Wikimol 20:46, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Based on the above votes and discussion, I suggest a moratorium on three revert quickpolls for the next four weeks at least. During this time we may think about other ways to enforce the three revert guideline. I do agree that some of the past QPs on 3RR violations effectively turned into popularity contests, which is unfortunate.
One route I think is promising to address edit wars is to give sysops more power in enforcing a cooldown period - right now, they are already allowed to protect pages, we may simple add the authority to ban users for 24 hours if they have been warned, and if the enforcement is consistent. If the edit warrior is a sysop, we may ask them to voluntarily stop editing for 24 hours and call in a steward or developer if they refuse.
I suggest that the other quickpoll conditions stay in place.-- Eloquence * 20:34, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
( William M. Connolley 20:49, 2004 Apr 23 (UTC)) I can't see the sense in this moratorium. What, in the absence of some enforcement, enforces the 3 revert rule?
(
William M. Connolley 14:28, 2004 May 1 (UTC)) The current state of voting is 15-15-21 so support for a moratorium isn't obvious.
In the case of Lord Kenneth, Tannin blocked Lord Kenneth to stop a rampage, then called a quickpoll to confirm the blocking as a 24-hour ban. This action was supported by the quickpoll. I propose that we start from this as a model.
I suggest that we allow admins the authority to impose 24-hour blocks of signed-in users for rampages, based on their individual judgment. However, this must be subject to community review, and I also feel strongly that the admin who takes such an action should have something on the line. My idea is that an admin who blocks a user for a rampage should put admin status at stake when doing so. This would be done through what I'll call a slowpoll, in contrast with quickpolls.
The procedure would be something like this:
This should cause admins to consider carefully and make sure that the block is justified. We won't have problems with repeat offenders, because any admin who imposes an unjustified block will lose the ability to do so in the future. Potentially, admins will have only one bullet in their gun (sorry for the violent imagery). Meanwhile, we can have the benefits of quick action where it is needed, while also allowing the community to engage in more careful deliberation.
As I said, this is a trial balloon, so feel free to comment, or just shoot it full of holes. -- Michael Snow 23:32, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I STRONGLY oppose having the admin lose his admin status if the slowpoll doesn't go in his/her favor. The chance of this happening would put a serious damper on anybody wanting to block somebody who went on a rampage. Rick K
Well, I for one would support the 24-hour ban; desysopping goes too far, though. There needs to be something at stake for the instigator of the poll, just to avoid handing all power to sysops. Meelar 00:38, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I'd support the warning > block > poll > ban timeline, but not punishment of the admin. Why on earth would we want to punish sysops? We already assume that they won't block people arbitrarily or go on rampages. Exploding Boy 08:37, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
The current system works just fine in the cases it was intended for. There's no reason to go looking for new means of enforcement. Right now, the bigger and more obvious the problem, the faster a QuickPoll can get you consensus. The problem is that the threshold for starting a QuickPoll has been too low, so we get long drawn-out arguments on cases that really aren't urgent at all. Even worse was when we felt obligated by the system to start a quickpoll on a user who was acting in good faith ( Stevenj) just because of the 3RR. The only thing we need to worry about is how to have quickpolls only when we actually need them. Isomorphic 16:39, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I support this proposal, as long as possible cases for blocking/slowpoll action are narrowly defined by specific policies, to avoid lynch-mob rule.
Also if a sysop is personally involved in a dispute with the user, he cannot be assumed to be neutral. Every police or court system has rules to prevent such conflict of interest.
About desysopping: The point is not to punish the sysop; it is to make pretty much all sysops spend some time off-duty - so they realise the uncomfortable situation of a non-sysop; so they will maybe behave more nicely next time they are sysop. This is how judges are judged - by how likely their verdicts are to be reversed on appeal. But likely, sysops will fight against this proposition which remove them their godpower JRR Trollkien (see warning) 22:06, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This seems like both a terrific waste of time and a good way to ensure that no one ever gets listed for a "slowpoll." Sysops have no godlike powers. Most of them spend their time quietly editing and watching the articles they care about. Probably the "power" they use most often is the rollback. They're not immune from punishment as it is; few sysops abuse their so-called power, and if they do they're called on it pretty fast. I think this proposal is ridiculous. Exploding Boy 00:09, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)
I have no sympathy for the quirks of this proposal, but I can't agree with your rosy picture. If sysops do wrong, they are considered human or well-meaning and defended by other sysops. This is natural. It's how social beings are wired. But keep it in mind, please! / Tuomas 00:40, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
A quickpoll was not needed when I went on my rampage. I should have been instantly blocked according to the rules, quickpoll or no. I do not apologize for my behavior, as I'm sick of how the corrupt system works. It's ridiculous. Quickpolls do little more than hurt users with good-intentions on certain topics. I propose greater arbitration for the quacks and goons who pollute articles, not silly "let's get someone if they revert > 3 times IN A 24 HOUR PERIOD EVEN THOUGH IT ONLY SAYS "PER DAY" WHICH WOULD MEAN AFTER 12:00... gah, so corrupt...
Fix the system. I'm sick of being punished for trying to keep an article NPOV and accurate. I've been working on [scientific_skepticism] for months now, trying to keep Reddi's crazy edits from misleading people, and few other people seemed to care-- their policy is "let the wikiprocess sort is out", which is basically saying "Let someone else do it." What happens when everyone else decides to just let the "wikiprocess" sort it out? NOTHING GETS GODDAMN DONE.- Lord Kenneth 02:24, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)
Re: Tuomas's comments: there are at least two admins whose behaviour I strongly disagree with, but they confine themselves to being a nuisance on certain articles rather than abusing their admin powers. So far I've not seen them user their admin powers (blocking, for example) against other users -- but if they did I've no doubt they'd be called on it pdq. Exploding Boy 13:22, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)
Compare with the Quickpoll(s) against
User:172, or earlier discussion on him scaring users away.
--
Ruhrjung 19:24, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It's not very useful to rely on voting, but we can't seem to live without it either. How can we solve this conundrum?
Let's make the guidelines so clear that ALL admins will feel empowered to use their judgment. If someone gets out of line, we can try:
I would say that in case of doubt, an admin should consult other contributors (regardless of "rank").
And if any action (like blocking) is taken, definitely report this to the community for review.
We've tried all sorts of systems. When the only way to block a user was to run a SQL query to mangle their password, that pretty much left it up to developers like Tim Starling, Brion Vibber and Eloquence. (By courtesy, I was called a developer even though I never did anything but run SQL queries and make annoying comments about speeding up the server! :-)
Then sysop powers were broadened to include the "Block this user" button. But we haven't come to a stable consensus on where and how this power should be used. Be too nice, and trolls over-run the dungeon (so to speak). Be too aggressive, and you run the risk of being called on the carpet yourself for "abuse of power". What's an admin to do? -- Uncle Ed 12:39, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
What constitutes a "rampage" anyway"? I think I may have just been a victim of such by 172, who has been following me around rolling back even simple housekeeping edits on all sorts of articles. -- V V 05:43, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Let he who is without sin...while I can't defend what would appear to be 172's decision to revert as many of your recent edits as possible, he seems to have been triggered by your decision to revert his edits to Muammar al-Qaddafi (which appears to be utterly unjustified, to me, and certainly not actually defended) and George W. Bush (which, I get the idea why you didn't like his version, but the changes he made were such as to at least require some remarks from you on the talk page). Until you do that, your reverts of those articles are equally unjustified as 172's reverts of your articles, which I imagine was his point. Sigh, this is just childish on both your parts. john 05:57, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well, some of the edits you reverted of his looked pretty ridiculous. Caldera and Susning.nu, for instance - on the latter you reverted to a version containing a sentence fragment. At any rate, his revert on Muammar al-Qaddafi looks utterly unjustified to me. The George W. Bush one I can see where somebody might think it's POV, but there was absolutely no cause for a revert. And his responses suggest that, at least now, he has some reason for his actions. But seriously, this is ridiculous. Any revert of anything but pure vandalism should be accompanied by an explanation on the talk page. If there's anything salvageable, one shouldn't revert at all. I think that, whatever POV problems there may have been in 172's edits, they did not call for a wholesale revert. On the other hand, retaliation reverts are ridiculous too. What good does it do you to revert things wholesale? They don't stay that way, and it just leads to nonsensical edit wars. john 06:24, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
That's why you discuss problems on talk, and so on and so forth. Another person's poor behavior doesn't justify bad behavior on one's own part. And that applies to both of you. john 06:48, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
You do realize that he says exactly the same things about you that you do about him? At any rate, I'm going to sleep. john 07:44, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Sleep well, john. If it's a "rampage", it's a rampage on the part of both. I thought you two (172 and VeryVerily, that is) had found an accommodation to stay away from each other, but I should have anticipated that it wouldn't last long. By the way, I didn't get any response to my follow-up about mediation from either of you. The longer this goes on, the more it looks like your personality conflicts will end up in arbitration. -- Michael Snow 20:41, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
VV & 172, if it's really true that you two have been reverting each other's edits for reasons other than disagreeing with their accuracy or neutrality -- like just to prove you can, or to "harass" or "punish" -- then I think you both ought to take some time off from Wikipedia.
How about it guys? Take a vacation and chill out for a week! :-) -- Uncle Ed 12:47, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Could someone do something about Gene Poole? He reverted Sealand six times in 24 hours. -- Wik 12:04, May 4, 2004 (UTC)
Strongly suggest you learn how to count.-- Gene_poole 10:37, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I counted 6 they are at 11.21, 11.12 on 5th May 1.34, 15.41, 12.54 and 12.49 4th May. Perhaps you should apologize for calling Wik a liar? theresa knott 10:56, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
5th May: 0.34, 10.12, 10.21. That's three in 1 day. It's a *daily* limit - not a rolling 24-hour limit. Latest example of Wik mendacity stands.-- Gene_poole 08:40, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Cantus likewise keeps violating the rule, e.g. on Template:Europe. Is anyone going to do anything about this, or am I the only one the rule applies to? -- Wik 18:51, May 5, 2004 (UTC)
Might I suggest that Cantus ought to be put under the same rule as Wik - he flagrantly and repeatedly violates the three revert rule, and barely discusses it on talk. The only difference between him and Wik in this regard is that Wik is usually right. john 23:55, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I agree, if cantus is aware of the three revert rule, and chooses to ignore it none the less, then he should be blocked for 24 hours. However at the moment we have no authority to actually block him, and until the quickpoll process is sorted out (whick will probably take ages) we are unlikely to have the power to do it in the near future. However a review of Wikipedia:Revert tells me that I can revert to cantus's disliked version and protect. This is what I plan do every time I see him exceed 3 reverts in one 24 hour period. theresa knott 13:18, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
It seems to me that the key objections to the quickpoll process is that some people get a pass for violations of the 3-revert rule because their position has more support or they are more popular than their opponents. (Certainly that's my view. :-)
I have a proposal to fix the asymmetric application of the 3-revert rule. Rather than nominating individual editors for violations, a quickpoll proposer can only specify the article in which the 3-revert rule has been violated. The proposer and others may then check the edit history for all violations of the 3-revert rule within a certain time period (more details below), listing them under the quickpoll header with links for the reverts of each violator. If the vote goes through, all violators listed receive a 24 hour block.
As with the previous implementation, I propose that this system undergo a 30-day trial period.
Simply specifying a time period like the 24 hours previous to the quickpoll posting leaves the proposal vulnerable to an asymmetry, as the last person to revert could be caught after other violations have passed the time limit horizon. Therefore, I propose that the listing must occur within 24 hours of the most recent violation (counting from the last violating edit), but violations that are within 24 hours of each other can (must!) be listed under the same quickpoll header. This means a listing could potentially extend forward and backwards in time without bound (more or less), allowing it to cover a complete edit war among multiple parties that extends over days or weeks.
There is a certain ambiguity in what constitutes a revert. For example, a clever individual might try a number of mild variations on a theme and then claim that these do not constitute a violation of the 3-revert rule. In order to address this problem, I propose that if there is a legitimate dispute over whether a particular edit violates the 3-revert rule (i.e., disinterested parties have different interpretations), or some other ambiguity of the quickpoll process, then the quickpoll becomes invalid. This proposal addresses the problem in that a clever individual could expend time and effort gaming the system, but if he or she does so, his or her opponent will get a free ride even for outright reversions. The key is to preserve the symmetry of the application of the rule.
I leave it to others to determine if this proposal has enough support to warrant an adoption poll. -- Cyan 14:34, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Any hard time limit is subject to "horizon" effects. Consider: you and I go temporarily insane and get into an edit war. You revert last, then we come to our senses and let others work out a compromise while we log off and cool down; and so no one sees the need for a block. But a week later, another edit war breaks out between other people, and the the article is nominated for a quickpoll. In the time period under consideration, I have three reverts, and you have four, even though we both have actually accumulated a larger number of reverts.
Of course, it wouldn't be fair for you to be blocked in this situation. It may be extremely rare, but if does happen, it's bound to be upsetting, so I wrote the rule to avoid this kind of situation entirely. Maybe it's unnecessary, though. -- Cyan 16:06, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
I thought about making a similar proposal, where if two users both reverted, the quickpoll would only be valid if it included both users and applied equally to both. I'm willing to consider this, but there's still a practical problem. However you define a revert, in a two-person revert war one user has to revert first, and one user has to exceed the 3-revert limit first. Once one user exceeds the limit, the other user can stop reverting and get the first user quickpolled. A scenario:
In this situation, there is little to differentiate between X and Y, except that Y has technically avoided violating the rule. Basically, we would be letting two people walk all the way up to the edge of the cliff together, then watching one push the other over the edge. -- Michael Snow 16:54, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
That isn't a feature of this scheme to enforce the 3-revert rule; that's a feature of the 3-revert rule itself. But I regard it as a good feature: the one who takes the first step up the cliff is the first one over the edge. If that person had instead tried to achieve a compromise, the entire problem could have been avoided. Note that this will only occur if there are only two opponents, and not during a pile-on edit war (for pile-ons, majority rules under the 3-revert rule, provided a sysop doesn't step in and protect). If there are only two edit warriors, then neither can really legitimately claim to represent community consensus, so I don't really have a problem if the one who escalates first is the one who is punished. -- Cyan 17:17, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Cyan's version might fix the problem of preferential treatment when two editors are working on the same article. It will not fix that same problem when two editors are working on separate articles. Determining whether or not an editor broke the 3 revert rule is really a trivial task (providing that the rule is clear, and with the exception of cases where reverts are obfuscated by additional edits - the 'clever people' Cyan mentioned.) The policy should therefore be designed to ensure that *every* editor who breakes the 3 revert rule gets the penalty. Quickpolls are not necessary here. These matters should only go up one level in the dispute resolution process if an editor objects, and additional penalty can be imposed when such objections are found to have no basis (whithout any cost to raising an objection even in relatively straightforward cases too many people would do so.)
So, if this issue can't have a software solution (which I still think it should,) then I propose something like the following system:
Chose a group of people whose task it would be to automatically ban whoever reverts 4 times in a UTC day (this could simply be all sysops.) Create a special page where bans will be announced, much like the current Protection log.
For simple reverts the procedure would be the following:
In cases when reverts are obfuscated by additional edits:
Also, instead of banning someone for 24 hours a person breaking the 3 revert rule could simply be limited to 3 edits per article for 30 days, which could be enforced by software.
The above system is meant to fix the 3 things that didn't work in the quickpolls version.
The 3 revert rule needs to be changed to 3 reverts in a utc day, (instead of the current 'there is a speed limit of 3 rods per something or other, and if that's confusing you should just slow down' version.)
The guidelines for determining whether an edit is a revert should be something like: "Any edit that includes either the removal or addition of a controversial phrase that was previously removed or added on the same day or the day before will be counted as a revert." To further clarify you could require the other party to identify the phrase in the summary before edits of that phrase are counted as a revert. -- Voodoo 02:07, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Any system that has a reasonable chance of avoiding asymmetric application of the 3-revert rule has my support. -- Cyan 04:03, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Why don't we go with the simplest proposal of all: the same edit being reverted three times triggers automatic page protection by the first admin that notices it occurring (one not involved in the dispute, that is.) Then keep it protected until consensus is hacked out on the talk page, with a temp version created if needed. This forces those involved to work out their differences, since you simply don't unprotect until they have. If someone violates the consensus solution after it's been achieved, as far as I'm concerned that's vandalism, and it can be dealt with as such.
Protection is simple, it ends the revert war, and it doesn't have all the finger-pointing and recriminations. Quickpolls shouldn't be for content disputes, and that's what almost all reverts are. All this legalistic nonsense about the 3RR just breeds disputes. Isomorphic 04:27, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
We already do that but it doesn't work. Pages get protected, talk stops, it looks like everything is a calm now so an admin unprotects. The war restarts. Some users manitain lists of pages that they intend to revert as soon as protection ends. The page has to be protected on one of the versions, the "winner/s" have no incentive to discuss alternatives. In the meantime "innocents" are unable to edit the page. I'm not interested in legislating content disputes, I am interested however in forcing certain users to stop revert wars of if that can't be done slowing them down to three reverts each per day. theresa knott 07:41, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
I have a proposal of my own, somewhat related to one noted above. Its flaw is it presents software implementation issues. Earlier, it was suggested a user would not be allowed to re-edit a page they just edited until after some time had elapsed. I think this is a bit extreme, although I like the pressure to use "Show preview", but it could be adapted. I suggest the first three edits are "free", but for the fourth edit a wait of an hour is necessary, a fifth three hours, a sixth twelve hours, a seventh twenty-four. After 24 hours all is forgotten. Or some such cascading pattern. Just an idea. -- V V 09:57, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
Norwich NR4 7HU
"Then keep it protected until consensus is hacked out on the talk page" This won't work in many situations, because there are a number of people who would rather have a page stay protected indefinitely than work out consensus on the talk page. This is especially true when one or more of the reverters don't think the page should exist at all, such as Wik with Atlantium. anthony (see warning)
Isn't the idea that whatever is worked out on the talk page counts as consensus, even if one "side" has refused to discuss it? Although I agree this can be problematic. Mr. Connolly, can you give examples of effective 24 hour bans? john 04:52, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I don't know about the rest of you, but my preference is to have a community-endorsed and -enforced penalty for edit warring. The 24 block is a minor punishment whose purpose is to symbolize the community's disapproval (and also give us some respite). -- Cyan 21:34, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
But what good is that when it just leads to bitterness? And why have the quickpoll at all? It is easy to determine violations of the three revert rule. Why not just let any admin ban anybody who violates the rule? The process of quickpolls just leads to escalating the conflict. john 22:04, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Your question presumes that a 24-hour block will lead to bitterness. I don't think it will in all cases: if all parties who violate the 3-revert rule in an edit war are blocked, no one of them can complain of unfairness. If I think I'm right, but 20 people think I'm being a dick and agree that I need a time-out, maybe, if I have some capacity for self-reflection, I'll change my behavior patterns.
My object is to set a standard that edit wars just aren't done, and to enforce it with community condemnation of edit wars. Letting sysops pick and choose defeats this purpose.
You wrote, "Isn't the idea that whatever is worked out on the talk page counts as consensus, even if one "side" has refused to discuss it?" No, consensus means that all interested parties come to some kind of agreement. Operationally, that means that no one feels it is necessary to revert. If, for whatever reason, I refuse to discuss the matter with others, that doesn't stop me from being an "interested party" in practical terms — I can still revert, forcing the page to remain protected for long, long periods of time, to the detriment of the wiki editing process on that article. -- Cyan 04:21, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
What leads to bitterness is not so much the being banned for twenty-four hours. What causes bitterness is the process of having a quickpoll, having twenty people say they think you're a jerk (some of them frequently voting to ban you because they don't like you), and so on and so forth. If people were automatically banned, with no quickpolls, there would not be the same level of bitterness. It might not have any moral weight, but it would certainly make people think twice about breaking the three revert rule, wouldn't it? If there's going to be a three revert rule, it would make sense to just ban them outright, rather than forcing through a quickpoll. john 05:38, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
I agree with you. But, I mean, if you're going to ban people for violating the three revert rule, you should just ban people for violating the three revert rule. All of the pro-people have been all "oh, this would work, if only people weren't biased." But having a quickpoll is an invitation to bias, and to hurt feelings, and to unfair results, and so on and so forth. And violations of the three revert rule are a largely objective standard - certainly outright violations, but also the kind of clever, almost reverts, can be detected without much difficulty. So if you're going to do it, why have the quickpoll at all. It's just an intermediary that makes things less efficient. john 07:22, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
The Quickpoll process isn't being used, and hasn't been in quite a while. There is no strong consensus here that Quickpolls are useful. Because of this and of the long inactivity, it's not clear to me what would happen if a new Quickpoll were started now, or whether its result would still be considered binding. I have put a note on the page in an attempt to reflect this, so that newer users who come across it will understand the context. Isomorphic 15:21, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I'm wondering what people think of using quickpolls for content disputes as an alternative (or compliment) to RfC's. IE a quickpoll on which version of an article is preferred, on which side is right in a dispute etc? AndyL 14:38, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps we should have a "modified" quickpoll that must be up for a minimum of 72 hours and must be referenced on the articles Talk page? AndyL 15:15, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
The quickpoll process was originally implemented as a 30-day trial. We have now had 30 days to evaluate whether this process is beneficial. It seems appropriate for us to consider the experience and decide whether we want to continue using quickpolls.
Question: Do you think we should continue using quickpolls?
The quickpolls policy currently allows quickpolls when:
If you support quickpolls for some of these situations and oppose them for others, please indicate in your vote the situations for which you support quickpolls.
This space is to consider possible changes to improve quickpolls
I'd like to see some form of automation for condorcett voting --this alllows ranking of several alternitives. Hottly disputed subjects might also benifit from a split page line by line "rebuttal" or alternate opinion format wiki deuling? But I am interested in trolproofing the concept. perhaps with "voting and forking" of "sections and versions". It seems appealing to let memes rise on their own. -ws
Quickpolls are polls among Wikipedia regulars on issues that need to be quickly resolved. Can someone explain to me why review of sysop actions should be done in a Quickpoll anyway? We have Wikipedia:Requests for review of admin actions AND Wikipedia:Possible misuses of sysop rights for reviewing sysop abuses. How often are we going to need emergency desysoping? The only cases I can think of involve a sysop going on some sort of rampage, and in that situation you could Quickpoll and ban, just like you'd do for any other user. Isomorphic 19:32, 21 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Three reverts rule - if that will be enforced diligently, uncooperative users will just do revert-edits instead of normal reverts, e.g. change word order slightly. Wikimol 20:46, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Based on the above votes and discussion, I suggest a moratorium on three revert quickpolls for the next four weeks at least. During this time we may think about other ways to enforce the three revert guideline. I do agree that some of the past QPs on 3RR violations effectively turned into popularity contests, which is unfortunate.
One route I think is promising to address edit wars is to give sysops more power in enforcing a cooldown period - right now, they are already allowed to protect pages, we may simple add the authority to ban users for 24 hours if they have been warned, and if the enforcement is consistent. If the edit warrior is a sysop, we may ask them to voluntarily stop editing for 24 hours and call in a steward or developer if they refuse.
I suggest that the other quickpoll conditions stay in place.-- Eloquence * 20:34, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
( William M. Connolley 20:49, 2004 Apr 23 (UTC)) I can't see the sense in this moratorium. What, in the absence of some enforcement, enforces the 3 revert rule?
(
William M. Connolley 14:28, 2004 May 1 (UTC)) The current state of voting is 15-15-21 so support for a moratorium isn't obvious.
In the case of Lord Kenneth, Tannin blocked Lord Kenneth to stop a rampage, then called a quickpoll to confirm the blocking as a 24-hour ban. This action was supported by the quickpoll. I propose that we start from this as a model.
I suggest that we allow admins the authority to impose 24-hour blocks of signed-in users for rampages, based on their individual judgment. However, this must be subject to community review, and I also feel strongly that the admin who takes such an action should have something on the line. My idea is that an admin who blocks a user for a rampage should put admin status at stake when doing so. This would be done through what I'll call a slowpoll, in contrast with quickpolls.
The procedure would be something like this:
This should cause admins to consider carefully and make sure that the block is justified. We won't have problems with repeat offenders, because any admin who imposes an unjustified block will lose the ability to do so in the future. Potentially, admins will have only one bullet in their gun (sorry for the violent imagery). Meanwhile, we can have the benefits of quick action where it is needed, while also allowing the community to engage in more careful deliberation.
As I said, this is a trial balloon, so feel free to comment, or just shoot it full of holes. -- Michael Snow 23:32, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I STRONGLY oppose having the admin lose his admin status if the slowpoll doesn't go in his/her favor. The chance of this happening would put a serious damper on anybody wanting to block somebody who went on a rampage. Rick K
Well, I for one would support the 24-hour ban; desysopping goes too far, though. There needs to be something at stake for the instigator of the poll, just to avoid handing all power to sysops. Meelar 00:38, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I'd support the warning > block > poll > ban timeline, but not punishment of the admin. Why on earth would we want to punish sysops? We already assume that they won't block people arbitrarily or go on rampages. Exploding Boy 08:37, Apr 23, 2004 (UTC)
The current system works just fine in the cases it was intended for. There's no reason to go looking for new means of enforcement. Right now, the bigger and more obvious the problem, the faster a QuickPoll can get you consensus. The problem is that the threshold for starting a QuickPoll has been too low, so we get long drawn-out arguments on cases that really aren't urgent at all. Even worse was when we felt obligated by the system to start a quickpoll on a user who was acting in good faith ( Stevenj) just because of the 3RR. The only thing we need to worry about is how to have quickpolls only when we actually need them. Isomorphic 16:39, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I support this proposal, as long as possible cases for blocking/slowpoll action are narrowly defined by specific policies, to avoid lynch-mob rule.
Also if a sysop is personally involved in a dispute with the user, he cannot be assumed to be neutral. Every police or court system has rules to prevent such conflict of interest.
About desysopping: The point is not to punish the sysop; it is to make pretty much all sysops spend some time off-duty - so they realise the uncomfortable situation of a non-sysop; so they will maybe behave more nicely next time they are sysop. This is how judges are judged - by how likely their verdicts are to be reversed on appeal. But likely, sysops will fight against this proposition which remove them their godpower JRR Trollkien (see warning) 22:06, 23 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This seems like both a terrific waste of time and a good way to ensure that no one ever gets listed for a "slowpoll." Sysops have no godlike powers. Most of them spend their time quietly editing and watching the articles they care about. Probably the "power" they use most often is the rollback. They're not immune from punishment as it is; few sysops abuse their so-called power, and if they do they're called on it pretty fast. I think this proposal is ridiculous. Exploding Boy 00:09, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)
I have no sympathy for the quirks of this proposal, but I can't agree with your rosy picture. If sysops do wrong, they are considered human or well-meaning and defended by other sysops. This is natural. It's how social beings are wired. But keep it in mind, please! / Tuomas 00:40, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
A quickpoll was not needed when I went on my rampage. I should have been instantly blocked according to the rules, quickpoll or no. I do not apologize for my behavior, as I'm sick of how the corrupt system works. It's ridiculous. Quickpolls do little more than hurt users with good-intentions on certain topics. I propose greater arbitration for the quacks and goons who pollute articles, not silly "let's get someone if they revert > 3 times IN A 24 HOUR PERIOD EVEN THOUGH IT ONLY SAYS "PER DAY" WHICH WOULD MEAN AFTER 12:00... gah, so corrupt...
Fix the system. I'm sick of being punished for trying to keep an article NPOV and accurate. I've been working on [scientific_skepticism] for months now, trying to keep Reddi's crazy edits from misleading people, and few other people seemed to care-- their policy is "let the wikiprocess sort is out", which is basically saying "Let someone else do it." What happens when everyone else decides to just let the "wikiprocess" sort it out? NOTHING GETS GODDAMN DONE.- Lord Kenneth 02:24, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)
Re: Tuomas's comments: there are at least two admins whose behaviour I strongly disagree with, but they confine themselves to being a nuisance on certain articles rather than abusing their admin powers. So far I've not seen them user their admin powers (blocking, for example) against other users -- but if they did I've no doubt they'd be called on it pdq. Exploding Boy 13:22, Apr 24, 2004 (UTC)
Compare with the Quickpoll(s) against
User:172, or earlier discussion on him scaring users away.
--
Ruhrjung 19:24, 24 Apr 2004 (UTC)
It's not very useful to rely on voting, but we can't seem to live without it either. How can we solve this conundrum?
Let's make the guidelines so clear that ALL admins will feel empowered to use their judgment. If someone gets out of line, we can try:
I would say that in case of doubt, an admin should consult other contributors (regardless of "rank").
And if any action (like blocking) is taken, definitely report this to the community for review.
We've tried all sorts of systems. When the only way to block a user was to run a SQL query to mangle their password, that pretty much left it up to developers like Tim Starling, Brion Vibber and Eloquence. (By courtesy, I was called a developer even though I never did anything but run SQL queries and make annoying comments about speeding up the server! :-)
Then sysop powers were broadened to include the "Block this user" button. But we haven't come to a stable consensus on where and how this power should be used. Be too nice, and trolls over-run the dungeon (so to speak). Be too aggressive, and you run the risk of being called on the carpet yourself for "abuse of power". What's an admin to do? -- Uncle Ed 12:39, 26 Apr 2004 (UTC)
What constitutes a "rampage" anyway"? I think I may have just been a victim of such by 172, who has been following me around rolling back even simple housekeeping edits on all sorts of articles. -- V V 05:43, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Let he who is without sin...while I can't defend what would appear to be 172's decision to revert as many of your recent edits as possible, he seems to have been triggered by your decision to revert his edits to Muammar al-Qaddafi (which appears to be utterly unjustified, to me, and certainly not actually defended) and George W. Bush (which, I get the idea why you didn't like his version, but the changes he made were such as to at least require some remarks from you on the talk page). Until you do that, your reverts of those articles are equally unjustified as 172's reverts of your articles, which I imagine was his point. Sigh, this is just childish on both your parts. john 05:57, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Well, some of the edits you reverted of his looked pretty ridiculous. Caldera and Susning.nu, for instance - on the latter you reverted to a version containing a sentence fragment. At any rate, his revert on Muammar al-Qaddafi looks utterly unjustified to me. The George W. Bush one I can see where somebody might think it's POV, but there was absolutely no cause for a revert. And his responses suggest that, at least now, he has some reason for his actions. But seriously, this is ridiculous. Any revert of anything but pure vandalism should be accompanied by an explanation on the talk page. If there's anything salvageable, one shouldn't revert at all. I think that, whatever POV problems there may have been in 172's edits, they did not call for a wholesale revert. On the other hand, retaliation reverts are ridiculous too. What good does it do you to revert things wholesale? They don't stay that way, and it just leads to nonsensical edit wars. john 06:24, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
That's why you discuss problems on talk, and so on and so forth. Another person's poor behavior doesn't justify bad behavior on one's own part. And that applies to both of you. john 06:48, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
You do realize that he says exactly the same things about you that you do about him? At any rate, I'm going to sleep. john 07:44, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Sleep well, john. If it's a "rampage", it's a rampage on the part of both. I thought you two (172 and VeryVerily, that is) had found an accommodation to stay away from each other, but I should have anticipated that it wouldn't last long. By the way, I didn't get any response to my follow-up about mediation from either of you. The longer this goes on, the more it looks like your personality conflicts will end up in arbitration. -- Michael Snow 20:41, 28 Apr 2004 (UTC)
VV & 172, if it's really true that you two have been reverting each other's edits for reasons other than disagreeing with their accuracy or neutrality -- like just to prove you can, or to "harass" or "punish" -- then I think you both ought to take some time off from Wikipedia.
How about it guys? Take a vacation and chill out for a week! :-) -- Uncle Ed 12:47, 30 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Could someone do something about Gene Poole? He reverted Sealand six times in 24 hours. -- Wik 12:04, May 4, 2004 (UTC)
Strongly suggest you learn how to count.-- Gene_poole 10:37, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I counted 6 they are at 11.21, 11.12 on 5th May 1.34, 15.41, 12.54 and 12.49 4th May. Perhaps you should apologize for calling Wik a liar? theresa knott 10:56, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
5th May: 0.34, 10.12, 10.21. That's three in 1 day. It's a *daily* limit - not a rolling 24-hour limit. Latest example of Wik mendacity stands.-- Gene_poole 08:40, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Cantus likewise keeps violating the rule, e.g. on Template:Europe. Is anyone going to do anything about this, or am I the only one the rule applies to? -- Wik 18:51, May 5, 2004 (UTC)
Might I suggest that Cantus ought to be put under the same rule as Wik - he flagrantly and repeatedly violates the three revert rule, and barely discusses it on talk. The only difference between him and Wik in this regard is that Wik is usually right. john 23:55, 5 May 2004 (UTC)
I agree, if cantus is aware of the three revert rule, and chooses to ignore it none the less, then he should be blocked for 24 hours. However at the moment we have no authority to actually block him, and until the quickpoll process is sorted out (whick will probably take ages) we are unlikely to have the power to do it in the near future. However a review of Wikipedia:Revert tells me that I can revert to cantus's disliked version and protect. This is what I plan do every time I see him exceed 3 reverts in one 24 hour period. theresa knott 13:18, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
It seems to me that the key objections to the quickpoll process is that some people get a pass for violations of the 3-revert rule because their position has more support or they are more popular than their opponents. (Certainly that's my view. :-)
I have a proposal to fix the asymmetric application of the 3-revert rule. Rather than nominating individual editors for violations, a quickpoll proposer can only specify the article in which the 3-revert rule has been violated. The proposer and others may then check the edit history for all violations of the 3-revert rule within a certain time period (more details below), listing them under the quickpoll header with links for the reverts of each violator. If the vote goes through, all violators listed receive a 24 hour block.
As with the previous implementation, I propose that this system undergo a 30-day trial period.
Simply specifying a time period like the 24 hours previous to the quickpoll posting leaves the proposal vulnerable to an asymmetry, as the last person to revert could be caught after other violations have passed the time limit horizon. Therefore, I propose that the listing must occur within 24 hours of the most recent violation (counting from the last violating edit), but violations that are within 24 hours of each other can (must!) be listed under the same quickpoll header. This means a listing could potentially extend forward and backwards in time without bound (more or less), allowing it to cover a complete edit war among multiple parties that extends over days or weeks.
There is a certain ambiguity in what constitutes a revert. For example, a clever individual might try a number of mild variations on a theme and then claim that these do not constitute a violation of the 3-revert rule. In order to address this problem, I propose that if there is a legitimate dispute over whether a particular edit violates the 3-revert rule (i.e., disinterested parties have different interpretations), or some other ambiguity of the quickpoll process, then the quickpoll becomes invalid. This proposal addresses the problem in that a clever individual could expend time and effort gaming the system, but if he or she does so, his or her opponent will get a free ride even for outright reversions. The key is to preserve the symmetry of the application of the rule.
I leave it to others to determine if this proposal has enough support to warrant an adoption poll. -- Cyan 14:34, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Any hard time limit is subject to "horizon" effects. Consider: you and I go temporarily insane and get into an edit war. You revert last, then we come to our senses and let others work out a compromise while we log off and cool down; and so no one sees the need for a block. But a week later, another edit war breaks out between other people, and the the article is nominated for a quickpoll. In the time period under consideration, I have three reverts, and you have four, even though we both have actually accumulated a larger number of reverts.
Of course, it wouldn't be fair for you to be blocked in this situation. It may be extremely rare, but if does happen, it's bound to be upsetting, so I wrote the rule to avoid this kind of situation entirely. Maybe it's unnecessary, though. -- Cyan 16:06, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
I thought about making a similar proposal, where if two users both reverted, the quickpoll would only be valid if it included both users and applied equally to both. I'm willing to consider this, but there's still a practical problem. However you define a revert, in a two-person revert war one user has to revert first, and one user has to exceed the 3-revert limit first. Once one user exceeds the limit, the other user can stop reverting and get the first user quickpolled. A scenario:
In this situation, there is little to differentiate between X and Y, except that Y has technically avoided violating the rule. Basically, we would be letting two people walk all the way up to the edge of the cliff together, then watching one push the other over the edge. -- Michael Snow 16:54, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
That isn't a feature of this scheme to enforce the 3-revert rule; that's a feature of the 3-revert rule itself. But I regard it as a good feature: the one who takes the first step up the cliff is the first one over the edge. If that person had instead tried to achieve a compromise, the entire problem could have been avoided. Note that this will only occur if there are only two opponents, and not during a pile-on edit war (for pile-ons, majority rules under the 3-revert rule, provided a sysop doesn't step in and protect). If there are only two edit warriors, then neither can really legitimately claim to represent community consensus, so I don't really have a problem if the one who escalates first is the one who is punished. -- Cyan 17:17, 6 May 2004 (UTC)
Cyan's version might fix the problem of preferential treatment when two editors are working on the same article. It will not fix that same problem when two editors are working on separate articles. Determining whether or not an editor broke the 3 revert rule is really a trivial task (providing that the rule is clear, and with the exception of cases where reverts are obfuscated by additional edits - the 'clever people' Cyan mentioned.) The policy should therefore be designed to ensure that *every* editor who breakes the 3 revert rule gets the penalty. Quickpolls are not necessary here. These matters should only go up one level in the dispute resolution process if an editor objects, and additional penalty can be imposed when such objections are found to have no basis (whithout any cost to raising an objection even in relatively straightforward cases too many people would do so.)
So, if this issue can't have a software solution (which I still think it should,) then I propose something like the following system:
Chose a group of people whose task it would be to automatically ban whoever reverts 4 times in a UTC day (this could simply be all sysops.) Create a special page where bans will be announced, much like the current Protection log.
For simple reverts the procedure would be the following:
In cases when reverts are obfuscated by additional edits:
Also, instead of banning someone for 24 hours a person breaking the 3 revert rule could simply be limited to 3 edits per article for 30 days, which could be enforced by software.
The above system is meant to fix the 3 things that didn't work in the quickpolls version.
The 3 revert rule needs to be changed to 3 reverts in a utc day, (instead of the current 'there is a speed limit of 3 rods per something or other, and if that's confusing you should just slow down' version.)
The guidelines for determining whether an edit is a revert should be something like: "Any edit that includes either the removal or addition of a controversial phrase that was previously removed or added on the same day or the day before will be counted as a revert." To further clarify you could require the other party to identify the phrase in the summary before edits of that phrase are counted as a revert. -- Voodoo 02:07, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Any system that has a reasonable chance of avoiding asymmetric application of the 3-revert rule has my support. -- Cyan 04:03, 10 May 2004 (UTC)
Why don't we go with the simplest proposal of all: the same edit being reverted three times triggers automatic page protection by the first admin that notices it occurring (one not involved in the dispute, that is.) Then keep it protected until consensus is hacked out on the talk page, with a temp version created if needed. This forces those involved to work out their differences, since you simply don't unprotect until they have. If someone violates the consensus solution after it's been achieved, as far as I'm concerned that's vandalism, and it can be dealt with as such.
Protection is simple, it ends the revert war, and it doesn't have all the finger-pointing and recriminations. Quickpolls shouldn't be for content disputes, and that's what almost all reverts are. All this legalistic nonsense about the 3RR just breeds disputes. Isomorphic 04:27, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
We already do that but it doesn't work. Pages get protected, talk stops, it looks like everything is a calm now so an admin unprotects. The war restarts. Some users manitain lists of pages that they intend to revert as soon as protection ends. The page has to be protected on one of the versions, the "winner/s" have no incentive to discuss alternatives. In the meantime "innocents" are unable to edit the page. I'm not interested in legislating content disputes, I am interested however in forcing certain users to stop revert wars of if that can't be done slowing them down to three reverts each per day. theresa knott 07:41, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
I have a proposal of my own, somewhat related to one noted above. Its flaw is it presents software implementation issues. Earlier, it was suggested a user would not be allowed to re-edit a page they just edited until after some time had elapsed. I think this is a bit extreme, although I like the pressure to use "Show preview", but it could be adapted. I suggest the first three edits are "free", but for the fourth edit a wait of an hour is necessary, a fifth three hours, a sixth twelve hours, a seventh twenty-four. After 24 hours all is forgotten. Or some such cascading pattern. Just an idea. -- V V 09:57, 11 May 2004 (UTC)
Norwich NR4 7HU
"Then keep it protected until consensus is hacked out on the talk page" This won't work in many situations, because there are a number of people who would rather have a page stay protected indefinitely than work out consensus on the talk page. This is especially true when one or more of the reverters don't think the page should exist at all, such as Wik with Atlantium. anthony (see warning)
Isn't the idea that whatever is worked out on the talk page counts as consensus, even if one "side" has refused to discuss it? Although I agree this can be problematic. Mr. Connolly, can you give examples of effective 24 hour bans? john 04:52, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
I don't know about the rest of you, but my preference is to have a community-endorsed and -enforced penalty for edit warring. The 24 block is a minor punishment whose purpose is to symbolize the community's disapproval (and also give us some respite). -- Cyan 21:34, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
But what good is that when it just leads to bitterness? And why have the quickpoll at all? It is easy to determine violations of the three revert rule. Why not just let any admin ban anybody who violates the rule? The process of quickpolls just leads to escalating the conflict. john 22:04, 12 May 2004 (UTC)
Your question presumes that a 24-hour block will lead to bitterness. I don't think it will in all cases: if all parties who violate the 3-revert rule in an edit war are blocked, no one of them can complain of unfairness. If I think I'm right, but 20 people think I'm being a dick and agree that I need a time-out, maybe, if I have some capacity for self-reflection, I'll change my behavior patterns.
My object is to set a standard that edit wars just aren't done, and to enforce it with community condemnation of edit wars. Letting sysops pick and choose defeats this purpose.
You wrote, "Isn't the idea that whatever is worked out on the talk page counts as consensus, even if one "side" has refused to discuss it?" No, consensus means that all interested parties come to some kind of agreement. Operationally, that means that no one feels it is necessary to revert. If, for whatever reason, I refuse to discuss the matter with others, that doesn't stop me from being an "interested party" in practical terms — I can still revert, forcing the page to remain protected for long, long periods of time, to the detriment of the wiki editing process on that article. -- Cyan 04:21, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
What leads to bitterness is not so much the being banned for twenty-four hours. What causes bitterness is the process of having a quickpoll, having twenty people say they think you're a jerk (some of them frequently voting to ban you because they don't like you), and so on and so forth. If people were automatically banned, with no quickpolls, there would not be the same level of bitterness. It might not have any moral weight, but it would certainly make people think twice about breaking the three revert rule, wouldn't it? If there's going to be a three revert rule, it would make sense to just ban them outright, rather than forcing through a quickpoll. john 05:38, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
I agree with you. But, I mean, if you're going to ban people for violating the three revert rule, you should just ban people for violating the three revert rule. All of the pro-people have been all "oh, this would work, if only people weren't biased." But having a quickpoll is an invitation to bias, and to hurt feelings, and to unfair results, and so on and so forth. And violations of the three revert rule are a largely objective standard - certainly outright violations, but also the kind of clever, almost reverts, can be detected without much difficulty. So if you're going to do it, why have the quickpoll at all. It's just an intermediary that makes things less efficient. john 07:22, 13 May 2004 (UTC)
The Quickpoll process isn't being used, and hasn't been in quite a while. There is no strong consensus here that Quickpolls are useful. Because of this and of the long inactivity, it's not clear to me what would happen if a new Quickpoll were started now, or whether its result would still be considered binding. I have put a note on the page in an attempt to reflect this, so that newer users who come across it will understand the context. Isomorphic 15:21, 3 Jun 2004 (UTC)
I'm wondering what people think of using quickpolls for content disputes as an alternative (or compliment) to RfC's. IE a quickpoll on which version of an article is preferred, on which side is right in a dispute etc? AndyL 14:38, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)
Perhaps we should have a "modified" quickpoll that must be up for a minimum of 72 hours and must be referenced on the articles Talk page? AndyL 15:15, 18 Jul 2004 (UTC)