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Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Q. What ought our policy to be on foul language?
NB: the previous list of names represents a wildly inaccurate summary of previous comments made by me in the hope of cutting this page down to size. Actual comments can be obtained from Older Versions. Martin 16:49 Jan 16, 2003 (UTC)
Archive of previous comments can also be found here: * http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Should_Wikipedia_Use_Profanity
I don't see the point of having the above on the policy page. The last point is a non-starter -- paper dictionaries include swearwords. -- Tarquin 21:07 Jan 15, 2003 (UTC)
Paper dictionaries include definitions of swear words, but don't typically use swear words when defining other words, or giving sample sentences when the swear word is not the main subject. I'm not sure offhand how printed encyclopedias deal with them. Perhaps this policy should be adapted by wikipedia? Wesley
Please be bold in updating :) Zocky 17:19 Jan 16, 2003 (UTC)
Well, it has always been my belive that this encyclopedia should be written so that aliens would be able to pick it up and read it, that is; it should be a ground up description of the life, universe and everything ;=).
Curse/swear words are a part of the human culture, and while i dont agree on writing stuff like: mount everest is a fucking big mountain it SHOULD be used in places where is makes sence.
Not doing so because of some cultural repressiveness is just wrong and counter-productive to the goal of wikipedia, we should not allow ourselves to not cover some subjects just because they are taboo.
I'm a pretty open-minded person, but I find the user name cumguzzler to be pretty offensive. I'm writing this here because Wikipedia won't allow me to edit the appropriate page on user names. Cumguzzler is obviously meant to be in-your-face offensive, and in such a context, intent is almost everything. It's also asinine to intentionally create an atmosphere of antagonism that interferes with the functionality of the process.
Foul language has no place in Wikipedia articles. This so called "freedom" or "non-censorhip" is a load of crap being promoted by a select few who, quite frankly, put forth this as valid expressionism to cover their personal inadequacies. Foul language or articles titled "Monster Throbbing Cock" are designed to gain attention to those who desire but cannot achieve acclaim for their efforts. They all are one more reason for Wikipedia to be dismissed as a place without value.....DW
This bit was added to the page today:
This statement adds no information and will not change anything. In the article profanity we find two lists of "profane words". One is the FCC's "big 7", made famous by George Carlin, the other is a slightly different list of nine words. Only two of these words have actual articles associated with them. Five show up as redirects to articles on the general subject they cover, including dog. The others have no article at all and are not likely ever to have articles. If they do show up, most of them can easily be turned into redirects, or, possibly, into articles. None of the words is in common use in the Wikipedia.
So, is the author of this paragraph advocating the removal of fuck and motherfucker? Neither of them is a dictionary entry. Both of them go far beyond a dictionary entry in discussing the cultural significance of the terms. Both warn that the terms are considered profane and vulgar. Thus, this paragraph has no function other than to muddy the water and add hypocrisy to the page. Can anyone make a case for keeping the paragraph? Ortolan88
Thanks for moving the paragraph here for discussion. I think the policy as is covers what you want to say. The only synonyms for penis that I could find were dick and dong. Dong is a genuine disambiguation page and dick is in as a nickname for Richard, a slightly doubtful entry, but not put in by a giggling teenaged prankster either. If such articles as you fear do appear, they can be deleted or redirected under the policy as stated (or the "not a dictionary" policy, without a need for the additional paragraph. Ortolan88
So, they're being deleted already. The "walkthrough" would be a hoot, an article supposedly against profanity consisting largely of profane words and saying don't use these words in articles. Contradictory and self defeating, if you ask me. Ortolan88
Oops. Pretty funny mistake! But the policies are already in place. Your rewording as in point two might be added, I guess, but I don't think it's necessary Ortolan88
Isn't it POV to say "don't use profanity"? -- Zoe
There are many encyclopedias in print. I challenge anyone to cite more than one that makes use of foul language (as opposed to using euphemisms). Does using foul language mark an improvement over existing encyclopedias, or is it perhaps a violation of parents' trust in a site claiming to be an encyclopedia? David 15:40 Apr 17, 2003 (UTC)
I find your examples thoughtful and persuasive. My only remaining reservation concerns children. Most parents want to prevent their children from being exposed to violence, sex, and other harmful influences. As adults we have become sophisticated, which is another word for hardened, so that exposure to negativity has much less effect on us than on children. This is also, I believe, the logic behind age limits for drinking and smoking.
So the important question for me is whether Wikipedia will be used by children (I agree with you that it is not designed specifically for children). My belief is that as Wikipedia grows, and as its information starts to rival and perhaps surpass that of professionally-written encyclopedias in print, it will become a favored resource with teachers, home educators, librarians, and others who are in a position to make it available to children.
At that point I feel that it will be vital for Wikipedia to use foul language only where absolutely necessary (such as in the examples you give). For me the criterion is that children should not see foul language in normal use; if they specifically look for it, I am in favor of their being able to find it. My standard is the dictionary, where in normal use one never sees foul words, but if one wants to look up the 'f' word, for example, it will be found. David 22:04 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)
Moved from Wikipedia:Village pump
I'm going to suggest that the article Fuck (and ALL others like it) be moved to a catagory under a heading that is not offensive to a great many people. I just searched Google for Norman Mailer and up came WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE FUCK. User:Black Widow.
I think that if we have a choice of two images that convey the same information, but one image is less offensive than the other, then we should consider choosing the less offensive one. Eg: in beach volleyball, if we have photos of the different signals players make by placing their hands in certain configurations behind their backs/bums, then it would be preferable to choose photos where the players aren't nudists... but only if we have such photos available. Martin
Martin, is this something you have discussed? I think it's a really bad idea: an open invitation to vandals. Tannin
I do not find profanity to be particularly offensive, but I do try to limit my use of it in conversation. (Though I often fail at that, finding few alternative interjections that wouldn't make me sound silly, prissy, etc.)
That said, I think that profanity policy should have as little as possible to do with our personal views on the issue, and as much as possible to do with the reaction of our readers. As others have already said, respectable literature, and encyclopedias in particular, refrains from using profanity. We need to realize that even if profanity scares away fewer users than it attracts, the users it scares away are much more valuable than those it attracts.
I find the censorship argument to be a total fallacy. Encyclopedic writing is not a form of personal expression; it is a cataloguing of facts. There is not one factual statement that requires the use of profanity, save for those that concern profanity itself.
Smack, the newbie
Erotism in film (which I originated) and Nudity film list shall be merged, and the photo in the penis page removed, because children access these pages..what do you think? Antonio Mr. Nightclub Martin
Disagree with removing the pic, but might be masked in the article; see clitoris for an example of this approach. As for the merging, it's up to you. Meelar 02:51, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
No comment about the merging. Question for Antonio - what's wrong with a child seeing a picture of a penis ? theresa knott 05:08, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Keep the picture. This is not a children's encyclopedia. Rick K 05:11, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Keep. Exploding Boy 05:15, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
Information: in UK schools, children first see full frontal male nudity in health and hygene lessons. These lessons occur in primary schools when the children are aged about 9 to 10 years old. At secondary school, they get the basics of sex in biology lessons, when they are around 12 years old. They see pictures of men and women naked, as well as cut away diagrams, and videos of people "doing it". By the time they get to 14 they will learn about STD's, prevention of pregnancy, emotional issues, in fact everything they are likely to want to know.They are exposed to pictures, films, diagrams and models. (Two models I like, are the model penis that's splits straight down the middle, If you peal the two halfs apart in fron of the male teachers they always cringe, and the condom model that has a syring attached that you fill up with wallpaper paste- what will they think of next!) Kids are fascinated by all this stuff. theresa knott 07:19, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I was thinking about this a while ago. Would it be a good idea for all of these articles to have a seperate wikipedia article for graphic images? For example, penis could have diagrams (of the internal goings on and the external appearance) which should be suitably clear to be informative, but not particularly taboo. Then there could be a seperate article for photographs or other more taboo images of the penis. This way if you end up at Photographs of the human penis you can't complain that you didn't know what the page was going to contain, and people who don't wish to see them can still access the article penis. This might also work for images not related to sex, for example photographs which might be distressing or make people squemish (like open heart surgery, etc). Just to make myself clear, I see this as a way of including more images than we have at present, not as a way of censoring our content, and as more useful than just linking to an image file (like on clitoris) which divorces the image from the encyclopedic commentary. fabiform | talk 08:01, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This would make sense, and would allow users of an external rating system to specify the actual URL containing the possibly offensive picture, thus allowing those of a nervous disposition to block it. It might also allow for later expansions of the Mediawiki software which might allow restriction of access to certain articles according to User Preferences, etc. In other words, you could specify that you wanted a warning if you inadvertently accessed an article of a certain type, or even have the system refuse to produce it. -- Phil | Talk 09:35, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
I object to that idea on the grounds that, first, it's unnecessary duplication, and second, it presumes that certain things (images of penises, for example) are inherently objectionable or obscene. Exploding Boy 10:13, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
Nobody is putting sexually explicit images all over Wikipedia. They are added to the pages where they are on topic. The penis image is on topic on the penis article. If you don't want to see a penis, don't read an encyclopedia article about penises. Simple, no? If we start moving away images that are "objectionable" to some, then I'll move away the image on erotic spanking immediately. Because surely it is more objectionable for a 6-year-old to be indoctrinated with the kinky "sex" practices of their parents than to see a photo of genitals that 50% of them already have.-- Eloquence * 11:59, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
I think that the solution on that page is less than adequate because it assumes that any photo of human genitalia is potentially offensive. The photo in question has a warning ("warning: This photograph may be considered offensive by some viewers"), and apparently it kept getting deleted from its original location ("It used to reside at Image:Clitoris.jpg, but it kept getting deleted from there... "). Exploding Boy 14:07, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
Just a quick note, in case I don't get another chance to add to this debate, to say that I agree with the idea of making seperate images of... pages - I especially agree with Jgm's point about the text thereby becoming more useful. Now, as for when we use this approach, I suggest we don't go overboard, but just create a seperate page if we have a reasonable amount of images and related information that would otherwise greatly reduce the audience of the article in question (for any of the reasons people have already suggested). - IMSoP 16:47, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Look, we've been through this a million times before. What we can all agree on, I think, is to put images which would be considered offensive by most Wikipedia readers on separate pages. That, to me, does not include a tasteful picture of a corpse (such as Gunther von Hagens' Body Worlds exhibits), but it would include the kind of stuff you find on rotten.com. It certainly wouldn't include pictures of a penis or a vagina.
Furthermore, we are bound by United States law not to include in an unrestricted area certain images which would be considered pornographic/obscene under state jurisdictions, particularly the state of Florida where the Wikimedia Foundation resides.-- Eloquence * 19:21, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
Is there any consensus as to whether a content warning page is legally required before talk that frankly mentions sex, or rape? I am running a wiki ([www.wikirpg.com]) and inevitably someone will create 'dark' fictional works and I'm wondering if there is any place the wikipedia people discussed the legal requirements in more depth.
Logicnazi 22:16, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
Q. What ought our policy to be on foul language?
NB: the previous list of names represents a wildly inaccurate summary of previous comments made by me in the hope of cutting this page down to size. Actual comments can be obtained from Older Versions. Martin 16:49 Jan 16, 2003 (UTC)
Archive of previous comments can also be found here: * http://meta.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Should_Wikipedia_Use_Profanity
I don't see the point of having the above on the policy page. The last point is a non-starter -- paper dictionaries include swearwords. -- Tarquin 21:07 Jan 15, 2003 (UTC)
Paper dictionaries include definitions of swear words, but don't typically use swear words when defining other words, or giving sample sentences when the swear word is not the main subject. I'm not sure offhand how printed encyclopedias deal with them. Perhaps this policy should be adapted by wikipedia? Wesley
Please be bold in updating :) Zocky 17:19 Jan 16, 2003 (UTC)
Well, it has always been my belive that this encyclopedia should be written so that aliens would be able to pick it up and read it, that is; it should be a ground up description of the life, universe and everything ;=).
Curse/swear words are a part of the human culture, and while i dont agree on writing stuff like: mount everest is a fucking big mountain it SHOULD be used in places where is makes sence.
Not doing so because of some cultural repressiveness is just wrong and counter-productive to the goal of wikipedia, we should not allow ourselves to not cover some subjects just because they are taboo.
I'm a pretty open-minded person, but I find the user name cumguzzler to be pretty offensive. I'm writing this here because Wikipedia won't allow me to edit the appropriate page on user names. Cumguzzler is obviously meant to be in-your-face offensive, and in such a context, intent is almost everything. It's also asinine to intentionally create an atmosphere of antagonism that interferes with the functionality of the process.
Foul language has no place in Wikipedia articles. This so called "freedom" or "non-censorhip" is a load of crap being promoted by a select few who, quite frankly, put forth this as valid expressionism to cover their personal inadequacies. Foul language or articles titled "Monster Throbbing Cock" are designed to gain attention to those who desire but cannot achieve acclaim for their efforts. They all are one more reason for Wikipedia to be dismissed as a place without value.....DW
This bit was added to the page today:
This statement adds no information and will not change anything. In the article profanity we find two lists of "profane words". One is the FCC's "big 7", made famous by George Carlin, the other is a slightly different list of nine words. Only two of these words have actual articles associated with them. Five show up as redirects to articles on the general subject they cover, including dog. The others have no article at all and are not likely ever to have articles. If they do show up, most of them can easily be turned into redirects, or, possibly, into articles. None of the words is in common use in the Wikipedia.
So, is the author of this paragraph advocating the removal of fuck and motherfucker? Neither of them is a dictionary entry. Both of them go far beyond a dictionary entry in discussing the cultural significance of the terms. Both warn that the terms are considered profane and vulgar. Thus, this paragraph has no function other than to muddy the water and add hypocrisy to the page. Can anyone make a case for keeping the paragraph? Ortolan88
Thanks for moving the paragraph here for discussion. I think the policy as is covers what you want to say. The only synonyms for penis that I could find were dick and dong. Dong is a genuine disambiguation page and dick is in as a nickname for Richard, a slightly doubtful entry, but not put in by a giggling teenaged prankster either. If such articles as you fear do appear, they can be deleted or redirected under the policy as stated (or the "not a dictionary" policy, without a need for the additional paragraph. Ortolan88
So, they're being deleted already. The "walkthrough" would be a hoot, an article supposedly against profanity consisting largely of profane words and saying don't use these words in articles. Contradictory and self defeating, if you ask me. Ortolan88
Oops. Pretty funny mistake! But the policies are already in place. Your rewording as in point two might be added, I guess, but I don't think it's necessary Ortolan88
Isn't it POV to say "don't use profanity"? -- Zoe
There are many encyclopedias in print. I challenge anyone to cite more than one that makes use of foul language (as opposed to using euphemisms). Does using foul language mark an improvement over existing encyclopedias, or is it perhaps a violation of parents' trust in a site claiming to be an encyclopedia? David 15:40 Apr 17, 2003 (UTC)
I find your examples thoughtful and persuasive. My only remaining reservation concerns children. Most parents want to prevent their children from being exposed to violence, sex, and other harmful influences. As adults we have become sophisticated, which is another word for hardened, so that exposure to negativity has much less effect on us than on children. This is also, I believe, the logic behind age limits for drinking and smoking.
So the important question for me is whether Wikipedia will be used by children (I agree with you that it is not designed specifically for children). My belief is that as Wikipedia grows, and as its information starts to rival and perhaps surpass that of professionally-written encyclopedias in print, it will become a favored resource with teachers, home educators, librarians, and others who are in a position to make it available to children.
At that point I feel that it will be vital for Wikipedia to use foul language only where absolutely necessary (such as in the examples you give). For me the criterion is that children should not see foul language in normal use; if they specifically look for it, I am in favor of their being able to find it. My standard is the dictionary, where in normal use one never sees foul words, but if one wants to look up the 'f' word, for example, it will be found. David 22:04 Apr 18, 2003 (UTC)
Moved from Wikipedia:Village pump
I'm going to suggest that the article Fuck (and ALL others like it) be moved to a catagory under a heading that is not offensive to a great many people. I just searched Google for Norman Mailer and up came WIKIPEDIA ARTICLE FUCK. User:Black Widow.
I think that if we have a choice of two images that convey the same information, but one image is less offensive than the other, then we should consider choosing the less offensive one. Eg: in beach volleyball, if we have photos of the different signals players make by placing their hands in certain configurations behind their backs/bums, then it would be preferable to choose photos where the players aren't nudists... but only if we have such photos available. Martin
Martin, is this something you have discussed? I think it's a really bad idea: an open invitation to vandals. Tannin
I do not find profanity to be particularly offensive, but I do try to limit my use of it in conversation. (Though I often fail at that, finding few alternative interjections that wouldn't make me sound silly, prissy, etc.)
That said, I think that profanity policy should have as little as possible to do with our personal views on the issue, and as much as possible to do with the reaction of our readers. As others have already said, respectable literature, and encyclopedias in particular, refrains from using profanity. We need to realize that even if profanity scares away fewer users than it attracts, the users it scares away are much more valuable than those it attracts.
I find the censorship argument to be a total fallacy. Encyclopedic writing is not a form of personal expression; it is a cataloguing of facts. There is not one factual statement that requires the use of profanity, save for those that concern profanity itself.
Smack, the newbie
Erotism in film (which I originated) and Nudity film list shall be merged, and the photo in the penis page removed, because children access these pages..what do you think? Antonio Mr. Nightclub Martin
Disagree with removing the pic, but might be masked in the article; see clitoris for an example of this approach. As for the merging, it's up to you. Meelar 02:51, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
No comment about the merging. Question for Antonio - what's wrong with a child seeing a picture of a penis ? theresa knott 05:08, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Keep the picture. This is not a children's encyclopedia. Rick K 05:11, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Keep. Exploding Boy 05:15, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
Information: in UK schools, children first see full frontal male nudity in health and hygene lessons. These lessons occur in primary schools when the children are aged about 9 to 10 years old. At secondary school, they get the basics of sex in biology lessons, when they are around 12 years old. They see pictures of men and women naked, as well as cut away diagrams, and videos of people "doing it". By the time they get to 14 they will learn about STD's, prevention of pregnancy, emotional issues, in fact everything they are likely to want to know.They are exposed to pictures, films, diagrams and models. (Two models I like, are the model penis that's splits straight down the middle, If you peal the two halfs apart in fron of the male teachers they always cringe, and the condom model that has a syring attached that you fill up with wallpaper paste- what will they think of next!) Kids are fascinated by all this stuff. theresa knott 07:19, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
I was thinking about this a while ago. Would it be a good idea for all of these articles to have a seperate wikipedia article for graphic images? For example, penis could have diagrams (of the internal goings on and the external appearance) which should be suitably clear to be informative, but not particularly taboo. Then there could be a seperate article for photographs or other more taboo images of the penis. This way if you end up at Photographs of the human penis you can't complain that you didn't know what the page was going to contain, and people who don't wish to see them can still access the article penis. This might also work for images not related to sex, for example photographs which might be distressing or make people squemish (like open heart surgery, etc). Just to make myself clear, I see this as a way of including more images than we have at present, not as a way of censoring our content, and as more useful than just linking to an image file (like on clitoris) which divorces the image from the encyclopedic commentary. fabiform | talk 08:01, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
This would make sense, and would allow users of an external rating system to specify the actual URL containing the possibly offensive picture, thus allowing those of a nervous disposition to block it. It might also allow for later expansions of the Mediawiki software which might allow restriction of access to certain articles according to User Preferences, etc. In other words, you could specify that you wanted a warning if you inadvertently accessed an article of a certain type, or even have the system refuse to produce it. -- Phil | Talk 09:35, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
I object to that idea on the grounds that, first, it's unnecessary duplication, and second, it presumes that certain things (images of penises, for example) are inherently objectionable or obscene. Exploding Boy 10:13, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
Nobody is putting sexually explicit images all over Wikipedia. They are added to the pages where they are on topic. The penis image is on topic on the penis article. If you don't want to see a penis, don't read an encyclopedia article about penises. Simple, no? If we start moving away images that are "objectionable" to some, then I'll move away the image on erotic spanking immediately. Because surely it is more objectionable for a 6-year-old to be indoctrinated with the kinky "sex" practices of their parents than to see a photo of genitals that 50% of them already have.-- Eloquence * 11:59, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
I think that the solution on that page is less than adequate because it assumes that any photo of human genitalia is potentially offensive. The photo in question has a warning ("warning: This photograph may be considered offensive by some viewers"), and apparently it kept getting deleted from its original location ("It used to reside at Image:Clitoris.jpg, but it kept getting deleted from there... "). Exploding Boy 14:07, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
Just a quick note, in case I don't get another chance to add to this debate, to say that I agree with the idea of making seperate images of... pages - I especially agree with Jgm's point about the text thereby becoming more useful. Now, as for when we use this approach, I suggest we don't go overboard, but just create a seperate page if we have a reasonable amount of images and related information that would otherwise greatly reduce the audience of the article in question (for any of the reasons people have already suggested). - IMSoP 16:47, 22 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Look, we've been through this a million times before. What we can all agree on, I think, is to put images which would be considered offensive by most Wikipedia readers on separate pages. That, to me, does not include a tasteful picture of a corpse (such as Gunther von Hagens' Body Worlds exhibits), but it would include the kind of stuff you find on rotten.com. It certainly wouldn't include pictures of a penis or a vagina.
Furthermore, we are bound by United States law not to include in an unrestricted area certain images which would be considered pornographic/obscene under state jurisdictions, particularly the state of Florida where the Wikimedia Foundation resides.-- Eloquence * 19:21, Apr 22, 2004 (UTC)
Is there any consensus as to whether a content warning page is legally required before talk that frankly mentions sex, or rape? I am running a wiki ([www.wikirpg.com]) and inevitably someone will create 'dark' fictional works and I'm wondering if there is any place the wikipedia people discussed the legal requirements in more depth.
Logicnazi 22:16, 26 Sep 2004 (UTC)