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Good start. Interested readers may also want to review WP:CORP and in fact this guideline may (or may not) want to acknowledge CORP and compare/contrast where appropriate. + + Lar: t/ c 20:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
1) Dividing organisations into "national" and non-national makes little sense when some subnational entities have thousands of times the population of some independent states.
2) The proposal implies that any organisation that can be verified from a third party source is acceptable. This would cover for example a school chess club mentioned once in a local newspaper. I do not believe this is appropriate of in line with consensus.
Piccadilly
18:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Different countries require different criteria. Something that's pretty big in California, but has little impact outside, is arguably more notable than an organisation that has national impact in New Zealand. (Apologies to new Zealanders.) -- Runcorn 21:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
What do you think about adding churches to this criteria? Should churches have their own? Are they covered by an existing criteria?-- Chaser T 07:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
As written, this pretty much includes every group that's ever had a write-up in the local newspaper. Frankly, I don't think that's enough. A group of kindergarden-age kids who pick up litter and plant flowers at the local park would easily get media coverage since it's a cute and heartwarming story, but that doesn't mean such a group would be notable or encyclopedic. In small towns, the activities of just about any group gets in the paper: if the local VFW holds a pancake supper, that gets an article. If the local boy sout troop collects cans of food for the poor, that gets an article. If any one of the local church ladies' groups holds a bake sale, there's another article. The same goes for student groups at a single school, which are virtually always AfDed by overwhelming consensus, but would theoretically be permissable under this policy if they get a write-up or two in the local paper. This policy as written would open the floodgates for all sorts of things. I think existing policy should be enough, but if it isn't then we must work out some sort of criteria beyond simple newspaper mentions. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've excluded student newspapers as a means of assertion of notability, how can I do this for local (small town) newspapers. Do we make a requirement that the newspaper needs to subscription over a certain amount? Also, do you think I should delete the "Inclusion in third party published materials" line? I'm starting to think I should, but you input is most welcome. 12 June 2006— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dspserpico ( talk • contribs)
Um, if the page 19D story made the front page of the NYT, it WOULD be a notable story, not inherently, but because the NYT added notability. I see your point though. If this proposal currently isn't quite right, I suggest you try refining it! I feel that a guideline for organisations is very important, and would be a good thing to have, and would reduce some scuffling and confusion in AfD discussions. I don't think the originator, or any other participant so far actually disagrees with that, do they? The criticism seems to me to be about what criteria are used. {{ sofixit}} !!!! + + Lar: t/ c 19:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe that notability is equivalent to notoriety, which is often the reason that organizations receive press. Other criteria should be considered, including membership totals, charitable activities, and longevity as a viable institution. WBardwin 04:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
(outdenting) Proposed re-wording below. I think that it preserves Edison's proposed meaning. Please edit. Rossami (talk) 21:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I am looking at Coin Coalition. It was an organization created by a vendor trade organization to lobby for getting rid of the US 1 dollar bill. This was back in 2000-2001. I have not seen anything in the news (using google) for anything since 2003. The domain name was orphaned, and the director of the group has died. It was probably marginally notable in 2001-2002, but it probably doesn't even exist anymore. The creator of the article started it in 2004 and has not contributed to Wikipedia (under that name) since Jan 2005. If someone created the page today, it would be deleted. Should it be deleted now, or is it grandfathered in? Thanks for any advice you might give. Ted Talk/ Contributions 00:14, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
The proposal is woefully inadequate and with all due respect consists of one criterion: is it "local" or not local (i.e. national, international)? It may be that an organization only operates in California, or Alaska, or Western Australia, or Quebec because of some unique characteristic of those places. The proposal ought to include organizations that are notable within a sub-division of a federal state (i.e. provincial orgs, state orgs). Other criteria ought to include: membership size; length of operation; size of budget; whether or not the org is registered with its national tax authority as a charity; notable "alumni", sponsors, or chairpeople; acheivements; nature of operations; size of events it operates, sponsors, or organizes; etc. Agent 86 17:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
According to the first point of this proposed guideline "organizations are usually notable if the scope of activities are national or international in scale". It then adds a verifiability criterion.
However, the second point, saying that "organizations whose activities are local in scope are usually not notable unless verifiable information from reliable third party sources can be found" basically limits itself to the issue of verifiability with no attempt to define what would make a local organisation notable beyond this.
This comes up occasionally with student societies on AFD, where some participants claim dogmatically that student societies that only exist at one school are never notable. This is a problematic claim, and I expect that most people would agree that, for instance, the Porcellian Club is notable enough. (Despite not being Ameican myself, I am using an American example; it will be more familiar to more participants, and it is a useful contrast to the common American pattern of large national fraternities with individual chapters.)
The question I would like to ask is: if the Porcellian Club is notable, what is it that makes it so? Can these criteria be applied more generally? up+land 15:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
What about longevity? Especially in areas not known for longevity? If a authors support group met every wednesday at the local coffee shop, that is not notable. If that same group met consistently for 20+ years, changing membership but never disbanding, and consistently producing published writers, is that notable? If a christian youth camping group held a nationally known campout twice a year for 30 years with attendees from all over the US, was listed in many publications listing this type of event, but never had articles or books written JUST about them, are they notable purely for having to continued to do what they do for so long? -- Bill W. Smith, Jr. ( talk/ contribs) 21:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I was bold and restored the {{ proposed}} template to the proposed article. If there is consensus to "closing" the proposal, I have no problem with that, but I could find no discussion anywhere on a consensus to move it into the historical bin. I have left the "merge" template; however, I can find no discussion supporting the rationale for a merger. I do not think it should be merged. Corporations and organizations are not necessarily the same; in fact, they are often very different creatures (including in terms of structure, membership, legal basis for existence, operations, etc.). Agent 86 21:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Sometimes people are being way to aggressive with the historical tag. A proposed policy or guideline doesn't become historical solely beacuse it isn't being edited any more, it also needs to be not used any more. This proposal is referenced in AfD discussions regularly, so is certainly not historical.
That said, WP:CORP is certainly in better shape than this, but it would need significant reqork to do a good job covering organizations, so a merge is not now appropriate in my eyes. GRBerry 21:06, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I support the recommendation to merge. The WP:CORP page was originally written and has since been edited with non-corporate organizations in mind. The title of WP:CORP does give the impression that it's more restrictive but I think the best answer is to rename WP:CORP, not to fork the rule.
The only substantive difference between a "corporation" and all other forms of "organization" is legal structure. WP:CORP has some clauses that don't apply to a non-profit (like the market indices criterion) but that's okay. You only need one criterion to apply and the only real criterion on this page is already listed there. Rossami (talk) 22:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
(We seem to be having this same discussion (though less of it) over on
Wikipedia talk:Notability (companies and corporations). I posted this over there as the "discuss" link pointed me there first.)
I concur on merging this with WP:ORG and renaming to "Companies and Organizations" or something similar. Companies and Corporations is a bit like saying Simians and Apes. Also, for the Notability notice template, we need to be able to provide an {{Notability|organization}} argument. Y'all think? — David Spalding ta!k y@wp/ Contribs 18:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Support the Merger (soon) I support the title "Companies and Organizations" or the equally preferable "Organizations and Companies". In my mind companies are subset of organizations, but some people may identify the word organization with volunteerism or non-commercial enterprises. Corporations should not be distiguished since they are (like partnerships, proprietorships etc.) only a legal form of an organization irrelevant to our purposes. I would also like to see much more clarity and simplicty in the definitions of notability, developed along with the merger; the current page seems over burdened with special cases which could be relocated to sub-pages. Kevin Murray 19:52, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
NOTABILITY OF ORGANIZATIONS & COMPANIES
An organization or company, as defined below, is notable if it meets one or more of the following criteria:
1. The organization has had a substantial and demonstrable effect on culture, society, entertainment, athletics, economies, history, literature, science, or education.
2. The organization has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works. In all cases the neutrality, independence, and credibility of the source should be considered.
DEFINITION OF ORGANIZATIONS & COMPANIES
These guidelines should be applied to any group of people interacting for a purpose commercial, charitable, social, or otherwise constitute an organization, this includes: charities, religions, clubs, companies, corporations, partnerships, societies, chains, franchises, etc.
*Please note that I would move discussions of products and services, and issues of special cases to other pages (if there is merit to the special case). There is already a separate page which displays and discusses precedents ; I believe that examples discussing specific criteria such as indices etc. should be featured there, otherwise we have potential for redundancy, conflict, and confusion. I believe that this format is simple, clear, and concise; furthermore it allows the combination of two somewhat redundant pages: "Companies and Corporations" and "Organizations."
Kevin Murray 21:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Can we expand this guideline to include Charities? The notability criteria would, I feel, be the same but it would be nice to see them covered. - Foxhill 20:48, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I have just switched the redirect to point towards the relevant WikiProject. Hope this doesn't bork too many of your links. Let me know if you need any help re-naming them. Oldsoul 04:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
In December I began a renewed discussion to merge Organizations with Companies and Corporations, and delete the term "corporation" from the title as it is a sub-class of company. In my mind a company is sub-class of Organization, but people seem to equate organization with non-profit, so "Company was kept for clarity.
Among the central ideas was to eliminate all of the special conditions from the combined page, since this is about as muddled as the US Tax Code now. The idea is to offer a precedents page.
In mid-January I suggested closing the discussion at the end of January '07 and move to a consensus, with the goal of developing the text for the new combined page by mid-February.
The vote is now open at Wikipedia talk:Notability (companies and corporations)
![]() | This is the
talk page of a
redirect that targets the page: • Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies) Because this page is not frequently watched, present and future discussions, edit requests and requested moves should take place at: • Wikipedia talk:Notability (organizations and companies) |
Good start. Interested readers may also want to review WP:CORP and in fact this guideline may (or may not) want to acknowledge CORP and compare/contrast where appropriate. + + Lar: t/ c 20:31, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
1) Dividing organisations into "national" and non-national makes little sense when some subnational entities have thousands of times the population of some independent states.
2) The proposal implies that any organisation that can be verified from a third party source is acceptable. This would cover for example a school chess club mentioned once in a local newspaper. I do not believe this is appropriate of in line with consensus.
Piccadilly
18:27, 8 June 2006 (UTC)
Different countries require different criteria. Something that's pretty big in California, but has little impact outside, is arguably more notable than an organisation that has national impact in New Zealand. (Apologies to new Zealanders.) -- Runcorn 21:33, 10 June 2006 (UTC)
What do you think about adding churches to this criteria? Should churches have their own? Are they covered by an existing criteria?-- Chaser T 07:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
As written, this pretty much includes every group that's ever had a write-up in the local newspaper. Frankly, I don't think that's enough. A group of kindergarden-age kids who pick up litter and plant flowers at the local park would easily get media coverage since it's a cute and heartwarming story, but that doesn't mean such a group would be notable or encyclopedic. In small towns, the activities of just about any group gets in the paper: if the local VFW holds a pancake supper, that gets an article. If the local boy sout troop collects cans of food for the poor, that gets an article. If any one of the local church ladies' groups holds a bake sale, there's another article. The same goes for student groups at a single school, which are virtually always AfDed by overwhelming consensus, but would theoretically be permissable under this policy if they get a write-up or two in the local paper. This policy as written would open the floodgates for all sorts of things. I think existing policy should be enough, but if it isn't then we must work out some sort of criteria beyond simple newspaper mentions. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 12:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
OK, I've excluded student newspapers as a means of assertion of notability, how can I do this for local (small town) newspapers. Do we make a requirement that the newspaper needs to subscription over a certain amount? Also, do you think I should delete the "Inclusion in third party published materials" line? I'm starting to think I should, but you input is most welcome. 12 June 2006— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dspserpico ( talk • contribs)
Um, if the page 19D story made the front page of the NYT, it WOULD be a notable story, not inherently, but because the NYT added notability. I see your point though. If this proposal currently isn't quite right, I suggest you try refining it! I feel that a guideline for organisations is very important, and would be a good thing to have, and would reduce some scuffling and confusion in AfD discussions. I don't think the originator, or any other participant so far actually disagrees with that, do they? The criticism seems to me to be about what criteria are used. {{ sofixit}} !!!! + + Lar: t/ c 19:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
I don't believe that notability is equivalent to notoriety, which is often the reason that organizations receive press. Other criteria should be considered, including membership totals, charitable activities, and longevity as a viable institution. WBardwin 04:10, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
(outdenting) Proposed re-wording below. I think that it preserves Edison's proposed meaning. Please edit. Rossami (talk) 21:51, 24 January 2007 (UTC)
I am looking at Coin Coalition. It was an organization created by a vendor trade organization to lobby for getting rid of the US 1 dollar bill. This was back in 2000-2001. I have not seen anything in the news (using google) for anything since 2003. The domain name was orphaned, and the director of the group has died. It was probably marginally notable in 2001-2002, but it probably doesn't even exist anymore. The creator of the article started it in 2004 and has not contributed to Wikipedia (under that name) since Jan 2005. If someone created the page today, it would be deleted. Should it be deleted now, or is it grandfathered in? Thanks for any advice you might give. Ted Talk/ Contributions 00:14, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
The proposal is woefully inadequate and with all due respect consists of one criterion: is it "local" or not local (i.e. national, international)? It may be that an organization only operates in California, or Alaska, or Western Australia, or Quebec because of some unique characteristic of those places. The proposal ought to include organizations that are notable within a sub-division of a federal state (i.e. provincial orgs, state orgs). Other criteria ought to include: membership size; length of operation; size of budget; whether or not the org is registered with its national tax authority as a charity; notable "alumni", sponsors, or chairpeople; acheivements; nature of operations; size of events it operates, sponsors, or organizes; etc. Agent 86 17:19, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
According to the first point of this proposed guideline "organizations are usually notable if the scope of activities are national or international in scale". It then adds a verifiability criterion.
However, the second point, saying that "organizations whose activities are local in scope are usually not notable unless verifiable information from reliable third party sources can be found" basically limits itself to the issue of verifiability with no attempt to define what would make a local organisation notable beyond this.
This comes up occasionally with student societies on AFD, where some participants claim dogmatically that student societies that only exist at one school are never notable. This is a problematic claim, and I expect that most people would agree that, for instance, the Porcellian Club is notable enough. (Despite not being Ameican myself, I am using an American example; it will be more familiar to more participants, and it is a useful contrast to the common American pattern of large national fraternities with individual chapters.)
The question I would like to ask is: if the Porcellian Club is notable, what is it that makes it so? Can these criteria be applied more generally? up+land 15:56, 30 July 2006 (UTC)
What about longevity? Especially in areas not known for longevity? If a authors support group met every wednesday at the local coffee shop, that is not notable. If that same group met consistently for 20+ years, changing membership but never disbanding, and consistently producing published writers, is that notable? If a christian youth camping group held a nationally known campout twice a year for 30 years with attendees from all over the US, was listed in many publications listing this type of event, but never had articles or books written JUST about them, are they notable purely for having to continued to do what they do for so long? -- Bill W. Smith, Jr. ( talk/ contribs) 21:48, 25 January 2007 (UTC)
I was bold and restored the {{ proposed}} template to the proposed article. If there is consensus to "closing" the proposal, I have no problem with that, but I could find no discussion anywhere on a consensus to move it into the historical bin. I have left the "merge" template; however, I can find no discussion supporting the rationale for a merger. I do not think it should be merged. Corporations and organizations are not necessarily the same; in fact, they are often very different creatures (including in terms of structure, membership, legal basis for existence, operations, etc.). Agent 86 21:20, 6 September 2006 (UTC)
Sometimes people are being way to aggressive with the historical tag. A proposed policy or guideline doesn't become historical solely beacuse it isn't being edited any more, it also needs to be not used any more. This proposal is referenced in AfD discussions regularly, so is certainly not historical.
That said, WP:CORP is certainly in better shape than this, but it would need significant reqork to do a good job covering organizations, so a merge is not now appropriate in my eyes. GRBerry 21:06, 18 September 2006 (UTC)
I support the recommendation to merge. The WP:CORP page was originally written and has since been edited with non-corporate organizations in mind. The title of WP:CORP does give the impression that it's more restrictive but I think the best answer is to rename WP:CORP, not to fork the rule.
The only substantive difference between a "corporation" and all other forms of "organization" is legal structure. WP:CORP has some clauses that don't apply to a non-profit (like the market indices criterion) but that's okay. You only need one criterion to apply and the only real criterion on this page is already listed there. Rossami (talk) 22:20, 20 September 2006 (UTC)
(We seem to be having this same discussion (though less of it) over on
Wikipedia talk:Notability (companies and corporations). I posted this over there as the "discuss" link pointed me there first.)
I concur on merging this with WP:ORG and renaming to "Companies and Organizations" or something similar. Companies and Corporations is a bit like saying Simians and Apes. Also, for the Notability notice template, we need to be able to provide an {{Notability|organization}} argument. Y'all think? — David Spalding ta!k y@wp/ Contribs 18:20, 9 December 2006 (UTC)
Support the Merger (soon) I support the title "Companies and Organizations" or the equally preferable "Organizations and Companies". In my mind companies are subset of organizations, but some people may identify the word organization with volunteerism or non-commercial enterprises. Corporations should not be distiguished since they are (like partnerships, proprietorships etc.) only a legal form of an organization irrelevant to our purposes. I would also like to see much more clarity and simplicty in the definitions of notability, developed along with the merger; the current page seems over burdened with special cases which could be relocated to sub-pages. Kevin Murray 19:52, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
NOTABILITY OF ORGANIZATIONS & COMPANIES
An organization or company, as defined below, is notable if it meets one or more of the following criteria:
1. The organization has had a substantial and demonstrable effect on culture, society, entertainment, athletics, economies, history, literature, science, or education.
2. The organization has been the subject of multiple non-trivial published works. In all cases the neutrality, independence, and credibility of the source should be considered.
DEFINITION OF ORGANIZATIONS & COMPANIES
These guidelines should be applied to any group of people interacting for a purpose commercial, charitable, social, or otherwise constitute an organization, this includes: charities, religions, clubs, companies, corporations, partnerships, societies, chains, franchises, etc.
*Please note that I would move discussions of products and services, and issues of special cases to other pages (if there is merit to the special case). There is already a separate page which displays and discusses precedents ; I believe that examples discussing specific criteria such as indices etc. should be featured there, otherwise we have potential for redundancy, conflict, and confusion. I believe that this format is simple, clear, and concise; furthermore it allows the combination of two somewhat redundant pages: "Companies and Corporations" and "Organizations."
Kevin Murray 21:15, 23 December 2006 (UTC)
Can we expand this guideline to include Charities? The notability criteria would, I feel, be the same but it would be nice to see them covered. - Foxhill 20:48, 30 January 2007 (UTC)
I have just switched the redirect to point towards the relevant WikiProject. Hope this doesn't bork too many of your links. Let me know if you need any help re-naming them. Oldsoul 04:31, 31 January 2007 (UTC)
In December I began a renewed discussion to merge Organizations with Companies and Corporations, and delete the term "corporation" from the title as it is a sub-class of company. In my mind a company is sub-class of Organization, but people seem to equate organization with non-profit, so "Company was kept for clarity.
Among the central ideas was to eliminate all of the special conditions from the combined page, since this is about as muddled as the US Tax Code now. The idea is to offer a precedents page.
In mid-January I suggested closing the discussion at the end of January '07 and move to a consensus, with the goal of developing the text for the new combined page by mid-February.
The vote is now open at Wikipedia talk:Notability (companies and corporations)