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I had a look at the different notability guidelines, and here is the results:
Description | General | Academics | Books | Fiction | Films | Music | Numbers |
Organizations and companies |
People |
Pornographic actors |
Web content | Sports | Years |
Religious figures |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Criteria | significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent | Multiple criteria (And) | Multiple criteria (Or) | contain substantial real-world content from reliable primary and secondary sources | Same as general criteria, with guidance | Multiple criteria (Or) | Multiple criteria (And) | Same as general criteria | Multiple criteria (Or) | Multiple criteria (Or) | Multiple criteria (Or) | Multiple criteria (Or) | Multiple criteria (And) | Multiple criteria (Or) |
Articles not satisfying the notability guideline | Ask Tag Merge Speedy delete Prod AfD |
— | — | Keep Merge Transwiki+guidance Delete |
— | — | — | — | Improve Ask Tag Merge Speedy delete AfD |
— | — | — | — | — |
Examples | Notes | Section | — | Section | — | — | Section | Notes | — | — | Notes | — | — | — |
Caveats | — | Yes - Alternative to article | Yes - Derivative articles | Yes - Derivative articles | — | — | — | Yes - Derivative articles | — | — | — | — | — | — |
Other | Objective evidence Not temporary Do not directly limit article content |
— | Resources | Relocating non-notable fictional material Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#PLOT |
Resources | Resources | Rationale | advertising and promotion Recommendations |
— | Rationale | — | — | — | — |
If it should happen that a guideline has no more unique content, it should be deprecated.
Regards, G.A.S 20:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure about the first (I'll have to think about it more), but I disagree with the last. I think these caveats about what to merge into other articles can be very specific and detailed. They should be part of the the WikiProjects' own guidelines, or still in specific guidelines. It is the detail that is most helpful. Examples are "material about sports team that play at the 13th level should be merged into articles on the league they play in" and "material about Scout Troops should be merged in articles about Scouting in the State or County". We can never put all these things into the main guideline and they are really useful. -- Bduke 23:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
(Arbitrary reset of indent)
Firstly, can I give a big congrats to G.A.S for his brilliant summary table! Now, what most concerns me is the issue of Criteria. There has been discussion on here lately about the problem of notability sub-pages being less restrictive than WP:N ( see here). As shown in the table above, the WP:N criteria is "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent". This minimum requirement is essential to meet the requirements of verifiability. But all the notability sub-pages listed as having a criteria of "Multiple criteria (Or)" are less restrictive than this, and instead suggest alternative criteria that aren't based on reliable secondary sources. These criteria are therefore less restrictive than WP:N, and can't be reconciled with the policy of verifiability.
I therefore propose that these criteria sections be changed so that they require the general criteria of WP:N to be met first. The purpose of the notability sub-pages would therefore be to add special criteria more restrictive than WP:N, but not less restrictive.
— gorgan_almighty 16:03, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I've been giving this issue more thought, and I realised that what we really need is a guideline governing the creation of notability guidelines. I have therefore created a guideline proposal at
Wikipedia:Notability sub-pages, and I would be grateful for any input people can provide. Please post comments, etc, on the proposal's talk page. —
gorgan_almighty
14:26, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I've created a little essay summarising the views that have been expressed here and elsewhere regarding criteria on notability sub-pages. It is at Wikipedia:Notability sub-pages or WP:NSUBS. Please feel free to add to it or correct any bits that aren't right. Note that it's just an essay, not a guideline or policy. — gorgan_almighty 11:51, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Great work, whoever made that chart. It definitely shows a lot of problems that need resolving. We can't sanely rely upon "notability" if we cannot even consistently define it here! All of these subguidlines need to be brought into synch with WP:N, and watched for "drift". This is something that has to be watched constantly. I've noticed the same problem with WP:MOS and its subguidelines, which sometimes drift out of agreement with the primary document; sometimes this results in WP:MOS itself being modified to agree with the more specific subpage, but most often, the drift in the subpage does not reflect consensus and is amended. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:03, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi.
I saw this:
"... subjects with such coverage may still be non-notable – they fail What Wikipedia is not, ..."
Would this mean that " What Wikipedia is not" is a notability policy? mike4ty4 04:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
The best of WP:PORNBIO has been incorporated into BIO. This has been discussed for some time, but I think that we now have the opportunity to reduce the clutter of page and still maintain our standards. Please take a look at BIO and see whether the merge would make sense. -- Kevin Murray 22:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Please update the table below as and when individual notability sub-pages are reformed. (Note: Table design nicked from G.A.S).— gorgan_almighty 12:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Sub-page | Academics | Books | Fiction | Films | Music | Numbers |
Organizations and companies |
People |
Pornographic actors |
Web content | Sports | Years |
Religious figures |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Requires base criteria of WP:N to be met? | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No | No | Yes | Yes | N/A | Yes | N/A | N/A | N/A |
Notes | Merge to BIO being considered | Discussions on proposed merger with N have died | Proposal to make it a stand-alone guideline: Opposed | Merged to BIO | Rejected guideline | Rejected guideline | Rejected guideline |
I'm pretty sure notability is not a notability guideline but rather a general one. the wording "notability guideline" is just too recursive for my feeble little mind. -- Chris is me (user/review/talk) 05:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
What is happening with the WP:MUSIC guideline now? Its pretty much the only inclusion guideline that hasn't been brought in-line with the inclusion criteria laid out in WP:N, and discussions about merging it into WP:N seem to have died. What are we going to do with it? — gorgan_almighty 11:37, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I've recently seen an article about a Netherlands patient group where all the references are in Dutch. The article's author tells me that after I had flagged the article as needing confirmation of notability (ie needed a secondary source to confirm the orgnaisation as being notable), that this has now been provided - however that ref also points to a Dutch source. Assuming good faith and accepting, for the moment, that the patient group is notable in the Netherlands and so notable for the Dutch Wikipedia, I am left wondering whether an article only supported by non-english references is notable for inclusion within English Wikipedia ? I see nothing in the WP:N policy that addresses non-english related topics - can someone advise me, or point out where I should have looked ? David Ruben Talk 18:37, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems as though the criterion used for whether an article does or does not meet the standards as stated in WP:N is quite subjective and not objective as stated in the page. I believe a more standard means of defining if an article meets this criteria should be created. I hope this spurs a good discussion on what Wikipedia should or shouldn't contain in terms of the notability criteria. Simply because a subject is not popular does not seem to be a reliable criteria of whether or not a topic is notable or not. TETFSU 16:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if this has ever been suggested before, but I'd like to hear opinions on the notability of television programmes. Some might state that all television shows are notable but I wouldn't say so, not with little 3-minute things, educational programmes and digital programmes that have not been the subject of secondary coverage. There are probably some non-notable television channels, at least in the UK on Sky Digital, as they have not been discussed in WP:RS. I'm going to nominate House Auction for deletion after this, to get more opinions. I'd like to make an article about The KNTV Show, but I don't think it's notable. I need help here.- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 19:16, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Are there any notability guidelines for places? Where are they located? If not, do places (such as streets and neighborhoods) have notability guidelines? Minn3s0ta 15:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I've been researching different Massively Multi-Player On-Line Role Playing Games (MMORPG). The entries currently in this Wikipedia on the different MMORPGs have proven very helpful. Then, just recently I see that many entries "may not satisfy the Notability guidelines."
As I read the current guidelines, they won't allow contributions that include new ground-breaking developments (before agreed upon by many "experts"), controversial topics, or entries that may be of interest to a small population. Only those things that "experts" all agree on, and are of general interest, would be considered notable. This is of great concern to me. I want a place where I can go to find out about every different flavor of Linux, where I can learn about different political systems, and people like Thom Adcox-Hernandez, and where I can find out about every different MMORPG on the planet - even ones that aren't "notable". Maybe notable should be defined as "someone cares about this topic enough to take the time to make note of it in OUR wikipedia."
B.T.W: I never heard of Thom Adcox-Hernandez until I hit the Random article link. If he is more notable than Deliantra (a computer game) per the current guidelines (he's not marked as not meeting the guideline) that is flat-out wrong. I'm not saying that Thom is not notable. My point is that just as many of us care about, and take note of different computer games, as those who care about and take note of American voice actors.
Markkauffman2000 20:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, I think the whole 'notability' thing needs to be removed. This wasn't around when wikipedia started, and if deletionists/censors want notability policies, they should go to Citizendum. LucianSolaris 16:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
John Nevins - does notability extend to Bishops? Corvus cornix 22:53, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Absent other reasons, the biography of a bishop should be included if the number of adherents in the bishop's church/diocese exceeds 100,000. patsw 15:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Bishops, just like any other clergymen, are judged for notability by the general notability guideline, with additional guidance from BIO. No other special criteria are needed (neither more restrictive, nor less restrictive). This is starting to become a very frequently asked question on this Talk page. Please browse though the Talk page archives before asking questions like this. Maybe we need an FAQ section at the top of the page. — gorgan_almighty 16:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it is a frequently asked question because many editors think have some specific guidelines helps, rather than going back all the time to the basics. -- Bduke 21:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I want to canvas opinions on adding to the section Notability requires objective evidence a paragraph a generalised version of the following fiction-specific paragraph, which was added recently to Wikipedia:Notability (fiction)#Notable_topics:
I ask this not because I think it's a good idea, but because I can see no reason why notability should be relaxed for a sub-topic of a fictional subject but not for a sub-topic of a scientific, biographical, political, military, religious or other article. I would greatly prefer that this paragraph was deleted from WP:FICTION (see my comment at Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction)#Tired_of_this_policy_being_abused), but if it stands, it should be applied across the board. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 22:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
If you have a very long article where a large section is as such not notable (like a descriptiopn of minor characters), then the solution is to reduce that section, not to put it in a separate article. If, on the other hand, these minor characters do have sufficient verifiable notability, then thers is no problem in the first place. Not everything that appears in anything of note should be described on Wikipedia, only the bare minimum to make the article understandable. Fram 16:10, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Please SEMIiprot this page. This policy page has been slashdotted. SYSS Mouse 13:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I've written up a (very rough and embryonic) propsal regarding "semi-notability"; any input, comments, throwing of rotten vegetables, and so forth would be very welcome. Kirill 17:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Should this http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Story_preparation/Wikipedia_versus_the_WebComics:_Define_notability be linked? Herve661 01:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Is a requirement of Notability even necessary? This measurement reflects, at best, a subjective measurement of an editor given an exceedingly difficult to define set of rules. Given that text is easily compressed, disk space is cheap, and the [ extreme disagreements] regarding criteria why continue to attempt to enforce notability?
Should Notability be dropped as a guide line? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.18.6.29 ( talk) 16:32, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Can we take a vote on abolishing the notability requirement? I've seen several good articles deleted with the explanation being only that it was "not notable". It really hurts my desire to contribute to Wikipedia. Why would anybody want to contribute when anything they add could be deleted by some asshole who thinks it's not important? Or perhaps we could just limit the notability requirement to images, since enormous amounts of text can take up less storage space and bandwidth than a single tiny image. Herorev 16:44, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Please note that lack of notability is not grounds for speedy deletion per WP:CSD; the closest criteria notability may come into play is in A7 - an article not demonstrating importance may be speedily deleted, but A7 specifically notes notability is a different factor altogether. If a page lacks notability, the page should go to WP:AFD, where discussion about deletion or other methods including trimming, merging, and transwiki'ing, can be held, and allow time for the affected page editors to help establish notability; if all other options to deal with the lack of notability of a page are tried and failed, only then should the page be deleted. There are some people calling for CSD of pages that lack obvious notability, and this is likely where a lot of the trouble begins, but when an article's notability is brought into question, there are rationale debates that should be taking place before deletion comes about. -- MASEM 18:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree -- MANY people make excellent points [ at this slashdot article] and feel that the Notability requirement is unnecessary. If nothing else, article deletions too easily cause useful contributors to stop contributing and the last thing Wikipedia needs is to piss off valuable contributors.-- 69.242.121.194 00:32, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I see that someone has added a link to " rebuttable presumption" in defining "presumed" but has gotten it completely backwards. Notability is based on objective evidence, and once sufficient reliable sources are found, that makes a prima facia case for notability. It is non-notability that is the rebuttable presumption, not notability. We presume something is non-notable if a reasonable search for reliable sources turns up empty. It's not possible to prove non-notability because that would be a negative proof.
Notwithstanding this, I don't think there is any need to presume anything in this guideline. We should simply say that something is notable if we find sufficient reliable sources and leave it at that. Dhaluza 10:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok, after having so many of my articles rather unjustly tagged with notability tag, i am proposing a few guidelines...
they're all pretty simple...
I'll call the first one the "name more than 10" rule...
Basically, if someone put up an article on, say, a Japanese philosopher, and you cannot name more than 10 Japanese philosopher by heart, then you should have no business putting notability tags on the article... The reason is pretty simple, because if you can't even name more than 10 Japanese Philosopher, then obviously you know very little, or worse, nothing about the subject... it would be like a guy who grew up in Sahrawi who is an expert on Camels trying to decide whether Martin van Buren is notable or not...
second rule: "check number of editor" no one is omniscient here, but if 5 different guys decide that they have something to add to some obscure article, then, well, that article probably isn't all that obscure...
third rule is "if the article doesn't relate to your culture", check its equivalent in other languages.... if an English article is a stub with a heading that no one's heard of, but the same article has a super long equivalent in Estonian and then well... it pretty much means that the article IS notable... a general rule of thumb.. if an article appears in two or more languages, each with different non-bot editors, then it pretty much means that it IS noteworthy....
fourth rule, if an article is deemed to be insignificant, and has an equivalent article in other languages, then make sure that when you place notability tags, the tag is placed in all language versions of the article... if editors from the other language decides that the notability tag is inappropriate, then the notability tag is probably not appropriate in English either... Most English editors, i have found, are pretty ignorant in terms of knowing other culture... but get this: not-known-in-English is not the same as not notable... The difference between Sunni and Shiites wasn't very well known in English either... you get the point...
fifth rule,
part 1. copy and paste into google... this is a pretty sure fire way of knowing whether or not something is notable...
part 2, when copying and pasting, make sure you're not just copying and pasting English texts if the article relates to subjects in other cultures...
for example Jin Yong, aka Cha, Liang yong, whose book have sold over a hundred million copies, has a mere 32 google results under his birth name, Cha liang yong, if you don't know any better, you might slap a notability tag on the article... but searching the same thing in Chinese return some 50000 results... and searching for his pen name in chinese reutrns 2.5 million results... see the difference? Philosophy.dude 02:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, please remember that a notability tag does not call for the deletion of the article. It simply calls attention to a problem with it, just like a weasel-words tag points out that the article has a weasel word problem that needs fixing, an unreferenced tag points out that there's a lack of references, and so on. A notability tag calls attention to a problem—"I can't tell why the subject of this article is important or significant, nor are sufficient reliable sources cited to assure that it indeed is by the volume of material on it." Articles are supposed to be written for the layperson, and should tell that layperson, who has never before today heard of the topic in question, the answer to their first question upon coming to that article—"Why would anyone care about this?" If an article lacks a good, clear answer to that question that's easily understood by a person who knows nothing on the subject, it has a flaw that needs immediate corrective action. (Or in short, it should ideally always be someone outside the subject who knows little or nothing about it evaluating if the article properly answers "Who cares?", since it's very hard to evaluate objectively if you already know.) Seraphimblade Talk to me 05:40, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to start by quoting a few comments from a slashdot article that I think contain some very valid ideas and then go on to create a synthesis of why I think this policy is a blight on wikipedia.
The great ongoing pop culture notability purges are an ongoing failure point for Wikipedia.
Maybe some admins and users have taken the various "Wikipedia vs. Britanica" comparisons of years past a little too much to heart, and are trying to "improve" Wikipedia by removing all of those articles which wouldn't ever appear in Britanica, but that's an extremely short-sighted thing to do. I mean, "A page for every Pokemon" may be a catchy (if inaccurate) joke about Wikipedia, but it also represents a strength, not a weakness: After all, there are lots of places one can go on the internet to find information about, say, France, or The Battle of the Nile, or Channel Island Politics; there aren't nearly as many places you can go to learn actual facts about Patrick Farley's award-winning comics, or the differences between all of the various Gundam Wing incarnations, or the full internet career arc of Star Wars Kid.
By Ray Radlein
For Encarta or EB to have an article on "Bob the Angry Flower", Microsoft or Britannica has to pay professionals real money to research and write the article for the subject. And in the past, EB would have had the added problem of the size of the encyclopedia adding to its cost and manageability for end users. By comparison, in Wikipedia we're talking about articles that have already been written and contributed for free, that - if truly non-noteworthy - add fractions of a cent to the costs of running Wikipedia as an on-going operation. Bandwidth costs for an article nobody reads are non-existent, the only real cost is storage. How much does 10 kilobytes cost?
I'm not proposing (and didn't propose - I did the opposite) that there's no reason for AFDs at all, but I do believe that as deleting legitimate articles has a real cost and DOES undermine Wikipedia more than keeping a non-notable article, the discretion should be on the side of not deleting. Fast track processes for article deletion in particular need to be reviewed so only the narrowest of criteria can apply to them. That is not the case right now.
Personally I can't see how a periodically updated openly available webcomic is not a legitimate subject for an encyclopedia article in an environment such as Wikipedia's where the contribution cost is free and the maintenance cost is more or less proportional to the webcomic's notability. Unless the comic is being used as a wedge to pass by genuinely unencyclopedic content, there's no legitimate reason to delete such articles.
by squigleslash
Trivia to you may be critical information to someone else. Obscure facts are often important to someone, even if most people could do without them. It may do little good to keep it there, but it does NO good to take it away (and I'd suggest makes it worse, as people will often check WP first knowing that it'll have an article on even the most obscure things, only to find it's gone).
by Firehed
If half of the effort that some people put into finding articles to mark for deletion, deliberating and discussing deletion, checking, verifying and then finally deleting the article - if half of the effort people put into destroying content were instead put into creating or improving content, Wikipedia would be so much better.
by Tom
The fact is that "notability" is used by and far the most as a reason to get rid of something. In reality it merely serves to muddy the waters of any debate or discussion surrounding the inclusion of an article. The word "Notable" automatically brings to mind a very subjective idea of importance, tainting any debate and unnecessarily confusing users. But this is not what the policy is: just look at the "this page in a nutshell" box for proof. What is meant by notability here is completely covered by other policies such as
Verifiability. Having this particular policy encourages users to cite it as a bar for inclusion that is not met when they have other reasons for wanting to get rid of an article. This practice is completely unhelpful. Without this specific policy, editors would be forced to look at the real reasons to not include something.
Take a quick glance at the
Articles for deletion page will quickly show that nearly every single one cites notability as the cause, when in fact they mean verifiability. Look at November 1st, as of this writing there were 38 entries, and all but four or five of them used notability as a primary reason for not including (or including) content. Sometimes it seems like people just like the alliteration of "non-notable" and the fact that it gives them an extra bullet point. It's used synonymously with verifiability when in fact verifiability should be what is cited, but this usage is due to the nature of the policy.
There simply is no good reason other than what is already contained in other policies to exclude content. Including something that is accurate and verifiable by reliable independent sources does not harm wikipedia at all, while deletion of said material does harm it. Ardent †alk ∈ 11:18, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be widespread consensus, both here and in the wider Wikipedia community, that the general notability guideline (requiring significant coverage in secondary sources) must be met in all cases, in order to assert notability. I propose we take this one step further and agree that "Notability is never inherent". The latter seems to me to be the logical conclusion of the former, and no new concepts are required to take this step. I propose that the following section be added to WP:N:
This section will probably deprecate the "Notability requires objective evidence" section. I'm not looking for a straw poll on this issue, I'm looking for meaningful discussion on the proposal, hopefully leading to consensus. Comments please? — gorgan_almighty 10:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I do not agree with this and think that it also goes against the way Wikipedia has worked in the past. The problem with linking notability to sources is that it just moves the subjectivity further away. For example, I do not see we agree about what a "secondary source" is. Is a scientific paper a primary source or a secondary source? I have seen people argue the first and that review articles are secondary. I have seen people argue the second and say that laboratory notebooks are the primary source. Other problems arise with terms such as reliable, independent etc. However the main point is that sources allow us to write an article. They do not do a good job in determining whether we have an article. Notability is the latter. While difficult to define, notability is really about whether people expect to find information about the topic in an encyclopedia. Inherent characteristics are important here. We expect to find an article on any town or village on the planet. We expect to find information on every soccer player who has played for his country in an important match. There is a discussion somewhere recently about bishops and whether they are notable. the point was made that nobody really thinks a Pope is not notable even though in some cases very little information is available. People expect an article, however short, on every Pope. Readers may not always actually find such an article either because nobody has written it or because there are no sources to build it on, but the topics are still notable. The tendency to drive all discussion on notability to whether we can write an article is likely to weaken wikipedia and not make it easy for new editors to know what to write about (or rather look for sources on). I think we should be going in the opposite direction and having WikiProjects and other groupings of editors working out in an open and transparent way, open to criticism by others, of inherent characteristics for topics. The policies, WP:V, WP:OR, etc then take over to decide whether we actually write the article. Deciding what to include in an encyclopedia is always subjective in some ways. Traditional encyclopedia use teams of expert editors. We have to use the good sense that comes from consensus of interested editors working together in a civil way. There is no magic bullet. -- Bduke 11:08, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Strongly Oppose would you mind showing proof of this alleged widespread consensus for rendering all the specific guidelines obsolete? Not a vague claim of prolonged discussion, or look in the archives somewhere, I want you to show me something specific. You were one of the big proponents of merging everything into WP:N which was overwhelmingly rejected, but keep claiming there's a consensus for changes that have the same net effect. Of course, I'm still waiting for a response from when you tried this in WP:BIO last month and all that could be found was 3 people in an unmarked discussion. Horrorshowj 13:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Aren't all geographical entries allowed, even if they only have the primary census data? There are still many articles created by the census dump that never went beyond the primary census data. That is an example of inherent notability. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 22:55, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I see that Wikipedia:Notability is now prominently listed throughout policy pages as one of six “Article Standard” policies and guidelines, with: Neutral point of view (WP:NPOV), Verifiability (WP:VERIFY), No original research (WP:NOR), Biographies on living persons (WP:BLP) and Deletion policy (WP:DEL). This is an interesting milestone. -- SmokeyJoe 00:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
The definition of Notability implies that this is a property of the topic and not the article, but in many AfD discussions it seems to be treated as a property of the article. Could that be brought out as a bullet point in the "General notability guideline" section? An article that lacks sources should be improved or called up on WP:V. Notability only applies to the topic of the article, not the article itself. Mdmkolbe 17:49, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Why create a guideline or policy which functionally discourages more information on wikipedia? If someone wants to write an extended article on character x from eclectic game y then food them, that games community and the wiki. We shouldn't be deliberately preventing people from putting as much information up here as they want. 122.104.225.84 12:20, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Are public school automatically considered notable, or do they have no assert it like any other topic? VivioFa teFan ( Talk, Sandbox) 16:50, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I've seen two recent AFD debates that were heavily basing WP:N on non-english sources ( done and ongoing). I understand and support the use of non-english sources to add information and act as references and reliable sources, but do they also apply to justify notability? Something that has extensive coverage in all languages except english on english wikipedia, would mean that it has notability in the countries or areas where the language is spoken, but has not made the leap to international news or research. It's a fine line between english (or any language) chauvinism and the reality of a phenomenon not moving out of a limited geographic or cultural area. Coming down against non-english sources for notability obviously would mean a greater limitation of what appears on En wikipedia. Has this been covered before, or is it hair splitting to say something works for WP:RS but not WP:N? WLU 17:17, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Wow, good timing. I'm actually engaged in yet another AfD discussion where this issue has come up and came here looking to propose an addition to the policy.
Basically, I'd like to put in something comparable to the clause about notability not being temporary titled "Notability is not limited by language or culture". My interpretation of the guidelines allows for the establishment of notability regardless of language or culture--for example, the fact that something was written about extensively in the Indian press but not the Western press does not change the fact that it was written about in the press and thus fulfills the requirements of the current guidelines.
Although foreign-language sources make it harder to verify content, they are ultimately permitted under WP:V. Given the frequency with which this question is raised in AfD, I simply believe they should be explicitly allowed for the purpose of establishing notability as well. -- jonny-mt( t)( c) Tell me what you think! 01:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I've always understood that the existence of an article on wikipedia is not proof of notability and therefore non-existence of an article is not proof on non-notability. Is this written in any guideline cause i can't find it. -- Neon white 22:17, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I have multiple objections to Centrx’s reversion.
First, you are undoing many of the changes that were agreed upon after long months long discussions. You are reinstating, without any discussion, several items that were widely rejected in May.
Second, to quote Centrx - “As always, it would be best to make gradual and discrete changes”.
Third, “presumed” is more accurate. Ultimately, a topic is only sufficiently notable if a consensus at AfD says it is. Thus, flatly saying a topic is notable if it meets the general criterion is incorrect - we’ve all seen articles rejected at AfD that do meet the criterion. There have multiple longstanding objections to creating a “wikidefinition” of notability - a word in common usage. Describing it as a presumption avoids creating a separate definition and more accurately describes the actual guideline.
Fourth, the “rationale” section you added is simply incorrect. WP:V and WP:NOR do not require multiple sources as the language suggests. It does not serve us well to have a rationale section that is logically weak and inaccurately characterizes Wikipedia policy.-- Kubigula ( talk) 04:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I feel that a recent rewording of WP:FICT now directly contradicts this guideline (among others) - I have brought up the issue here - if anyone would like to comment. [[ Guest9999 12:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)]]
I dispute this section's position in this guideline. Guidelines are based on either:
1. Wikimedia-wide policy conventions that have been established among all the Wikimedia projects.
2. Current conventions, practices, and standards, established over time by consensus among Wikipedia editors.
As different projects have their own deletion policies and inclusion standard, I doubt this is based on number 1. However, this process is hardly a common practice (at least now) and no longer refers to current conventions or practices. I propose that this section be: a. Reworded to reflect actual common practice, b. Removed entirely, c. Moved to a less binding process page, or some combination of these. Mr. Z-man 19:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I have seen the procedures outlined on this page followed, but I have to agree that the actual phrasing does not follow the general practice. If there is no assertion of notability (in the dictionary/CSD sense, not the WP:N sense), then the article is speedy deleted. If there is a marginal assertion of notability, then the article is generally speedy deleted or goes to AfD. It's usually only when there is an assertion of notability but no references that this procedure is actually followed. Unfortunately, it would be hard to lay all that out here, as CSD and WP:N use the word "notability" in a different context.-- Kubigula ( talk) 22:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Is this the place to discuss these things? I think that the standards for notability on wikipedia are a bit too strict, perhaps in how they are worded, and perhaps in how they are enforced. As an example, take the recent debate over the page Gamma Zee. When I read the guidelines I understand how people feel this page ought to be deleted. I think about it, and I realize that other people are making valid arguments to delete the page based on the guidelines, and I simply disagree with the guidelines. What is the appropriate avenue for discussion about this? This page is just an example--I feel this topic comes up very often. Cazort ( talk) 03:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
If we are supposed to be compiling the sum of all human knowledge, then who is to decide what is or is not notable? If the article is not properly documented or is written in a style that is inconsistent with an encyclopedia, then by all means feel free to mark the article as inappropriate or, god forbid, make some changes yourself. But to delete an article based on the fact that it is not notable enough? That is pure madness. That is why I vote AGAINST wikipedia notability as a system used to delete information. I do, however, support wikipedia notability to remain as an article to document the history of wikipedia. -- Macdaddy5539 ( talk) 07:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Was there one? Wikipedia:SCHOOLCONSENSUS was just created which appears to be aiming for that? • Lawrence Cohen 06:14, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Does this line in Template:Notability:
Mean that this line in this article:
Should be changed? -- Hebisddave ( talk) 19:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the rationale section that was recently added to the article, for the following reasons:
First, the section does not actually justify the existence of WP:N. It justifies a rigorous application of WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOT, but not actual notability guidelines.
Second, its interpretation of WP:V and WP:NPOV is not uncontroversial. For instance, it's entirely possible for an article to be verified with only one reliable source. Also, "WP:NOT a directory" is not a principle that should (generally or perhaps even never) be applied across articles. – Black Falcon ( Talk) 19:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
The [Name of group] are an Amazonian jungle tribe with a total population of around 20. (National Geographic, December 2007).
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I had a look at the different notability guidelines, and here is the results:
Description | General | Academics | Books | Fiction | Films | Music | Numbers |
Organizations and companies |
People |
Pornographic actors |
Web content | Sports | Years |
Religious figures |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Criteria | significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent | Multiple criteria (And) | Multiple criteria (Or) | contain substantial real-world content from reliable primary and secondary sources | Same as general criteria, with guidance | Multiple criteria (Or) | Multiple criteria (And) | Same as general criteria | Multiple criteria (Or) | Multiple criteria (Or) | Multiple criteria (Or) | Multiple criteria (Or) | Multiple criteria (And) | Multiple criteria (Or) |
Articles not satisfying the notability guideline | Ask Tag Merge Speedy delete Prod AfD |
— | — | Keep Merge Transwiki+guidance Delete |
— | — | — | — | Improve Ask Tag Merge Speedy delete AfD |
— | — | — | — | — |
Examples | Notes | Section | — | Section | — | — | Section | Notes | — | — | Notes | — | — | — |
Caveats | — | Yes - Alternative to article | Yes - Derivative articles | Yes - Derivative articles | — | — | — | Yes - Derivative articles | — | — | — | — | — | — |
Other | Objective evidence Not temporary Do not directly limit article content |
— | Resources | Relocating non-notable fictional material Wikipedia:What Wikipedia is not#PLOT |
Resources | Resources | Rationale | advertising and promotion Recommendations |
— | Rationale | — | — | — | — |
If it should happen that a guideline has no more unique content, it should be deprecated.
Regards, G.A.S 20:56, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure about the first (I'll have to think about it more), but I disagree with the last. I think these caveats about what to merge into other articles can be very specific and detailed. They should be part of the the WikiProjects' own guidelines, or still in specific guidelines. It is the detail that is most helpful. Examples are "material about sports team that play at the 13th level should be merged into articles on the league they play in" and "material about Scout Troops should be merged in articles about Scouting in the State or County". We can never put all these things into the main guideline and they are really useful. -- Bduke 23:21, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
(Arbitrary reset of indent)
Firstly, can I give a big congrats to G.A.S for his brilliant summary table! Now, what most concerns me is the issue of Criteria. There has been discussion on here lately about the problem of notability sub-pages being less restrictive than WP:N ( see here). As shown in the table above, the WP:N criteria is "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent". This minimum requirement is essential to meet the requirements of verifiability. But all the notability sub-pages listed as having a criteria of "Multiple criteria (Or)" are less restrictive than this, and instead suggest alternative criteria that aren't based on reliable secondary sources. These criteria are therefore less restrictive than WP:N, and can't be reconciled with the policy of verifiability.
I therefore propose that these criteria sections be changed so that they require the general criteria of WP:N to be met first. The purpose of the notability sub-pages would therefore be to add special criteria more restrictive than WP:N, but not less restrictive.
— gorgan_almighty 16:03, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I've been giving this issue more thought, and I realised that what we really need is a guideline governing the creation of notability guidelines. I have therefore created a guideline proposal at
Wikipedia:Notability sub-pages, and I would be grateful for any input people can provide. Please post comments, etc, on the proposal's talk page. —
gorgan_almighty
14:26, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
I've created a little essay summarising the views that have been expressed here and elsewhere regarding criteria on notability sub-pages. It is at Wikipedia:Notability sub-pages or WP:NSUBS. Please feel free to add to it or correct any bits that aren't right. Note that it's just an essay, not a guideline or policy. — gorgan_almighty 11:51, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Great work, whoever made that chart. It definitely shows a lot of problems that need resolving. We can't sanely rely upon "notability" if we cannot even consistently define it here! All of these subguidlines need to be brought into synch with WP:N, and watched for "drift". This is something that has to be watched constantly. I've noticed the same problem with WP:MOS and its subguidelines, which sometimes drift out of agreement with the primary document; sometimes this results in WP:MOS itself being modified to agree with the more specific subpage, but most often, the drift in the subpage does not reflect consensus and is amended. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 16:03, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Hi.
I saw this:
"... subjects with such coverage may still be non-notable – they fail What Wikipedia is not, ..."
Would this mean that " What Wikipedia is not" is a notability policy? mike4ty4 04:53, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
The best of WP:PORNBIO has been incorporated into BIO. This has been discussed for some time, but I think that we now have the opportunity to reduce the clutter of page and still maintain our standards. Please take a look at BIO and see whether the merge would make sense. -- Kevin Murray 22:16, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
Please update the table below as and when individual notability sub-pages are reformed. (Note: Table design nicked from G.A.S).— gorgan_almighty 12:50, 2 October 2007 (UTC)
Sub-page | Academics | Books | Fiction | Films | Music | Numbers |
Organizations and companies |
People |
Pornographic actors |
Web content | Sports | Years |
Religious figures |
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
Requires base criteria of WP:N to be met? | Yes | Yes | Yes | Yes | No | No | Yes | Yes | N/A | Yes | N/A | N/A | N/A |
Notes | Merge to BIO being considered | Discussions on proposed merger with N have died | Proposal to make it a stand-alone guideline: Opposed | Merged to BIO | Rejected guideline | Rejected guideline | Rejected guideline |
I'm pretty sure notability is not a notability guideline but rather a general one. the wording "notability guideline" is just too recursive for my feeble little mind. -- Chris is me (user/review/talk) 05:11, 12 October 2007 (UTC)
What is happening with the WP:MUSIC guideline now? Its pretty much the only inclusion guideline that hasn't been brought in-line with the inclusion criteria laid out in WP:N, and discussions about merging it into WP:N seem to have died. What are we going to do with it? — gorgan_almighty 11:37, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
I've recently seen an article about a Netherlands patient group where all the references are in Dutch. The article's author tells me that after I had flagged the article as needing confirmation of notability (ie needed a secondary source to confirm the orgnaisation as being notable), that this has now been provided - however that ref also points to a Dutch source. Assuming good faith and accepting, for the moment, that the patient group is notable in the Netherlands and so notable for the Dutch Wikipedia, I am left wondering whether an article only supported by non-english references is notable for inclusion within English Wikipedia ? I see nothing in the WP:N policy that addresses non-english related topics - can someone advise me, or point out where I should have looked ? David Ruben Talk 18:37, 23 October 2007 (UTC)
It seems as though the criterion used for whether an article does or does not meet the standards as stated in WP:N is quite subjective and not objective as stated in the page. I believe a more standard means of defining if an article meets this criteria should be created. I hope this spurs a good discussion on what Wikipedia should or shouldn't contain in terms of the notability criteria. Simply because a subject is not popular does not seem to be a reliable criteria of whether or not a topic is notable or not. TETFSU 16:41, 24 October 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if this has ever been suggested before, but I'd like to hear opinions on the notability of television programmes. Some might state that all television shows are notable but I wouldn't say so, not with little 3-minute things, educational programmes and digital programmes that have not been the subject of secondary coverage. There are probably some non-notable television channels, at least in the UK on Sky Digital, as they have not been discussed in WP:RS. I'm going to nominate House Auction for deletion after this, to get more opinions. I'd like to make an article about The KNTV Show, but I don't think it's notable. I need help here.- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 19:16, 27 October 2007 (UTC)
Are there any notability guidelines for places? Where are they located? If not, do places (such as streets and neighborhoods) have notability guidelines? Minn3s0ta 15:21, 16 October 2007 (UTC)
I've been researching different Massively Multi-Player On-Line Role Playing Games (MMORPG). The entries currently in this Wikipedia on the different MMORPGs have proven very helpful. Then, just recently I see that many entries "may not satisfy the Notability guidelines."
As I read the current guidelines, they won't allow contributions that include new ground-breaking developments (before agreed upon by many "experts"), controversial topics, or entries that may be of interest to a small population. Only those things that "experts" all agree on, and are of general interest, would be considered notable. This is of great concern to me. I want a place where I can go to find out about every different flavor of Linux, where I can learn about different political systems, and people like Thom Adcox-Hernandez, and where I can find out about every different MMORPG on the planet - even ones that aren't "notable". Maybe notable should be defined as "someone cares about this topic enough to take the time to make note of it in OUR wikipedia."
B.T.W: I never heard of Thom Adcox-Hernandez until I hit the Random article link. If he is more notable than Deliantra (a computer game) per the current guidelines (he's not marked as not meeting the guideline) that is flat-out wrong. I'm not saying that Thom is not notable. My point is that just as many of us care about, and take note of different computer games, as those who care about and take note of American voice actors.
Markkauffman2000 20:37, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Honestly, I think the whole 'notability' thing needs to be removed. This wasn't around when wikipedia started, and if deletionists/censors want notability policies, they should go to Citizendum. LucianSolaris 16:56, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
John Nevins - does notability extend to Bishops? Corvus cornix 22:53, 25 October 2007 (UTC)
Absent other reasons, the biography of a bishop should be included if the number of adherents in the bishop's church/diocese exceeds 100,000. patsw 15:28, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Bishops, just like any other clergymen, are judged for notability by the general notability guideline, with additional guidance from BIO. No other special criteria are needed (neither more restrictive, nor less restrictive). This is starting to become a very frequently asked question on this Talk page. Please browse though the Talk page archives before asking questions like this. Maybe we need an FAQ section at the top of the page. — gorgan_almighty 16:04, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, it is a frequently asked question because many editors think have some specific guidelines helps, rather than going back all the time to the basics. -- Bduke 21:59, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
I want to canvas opinions on adding to the section Notability requires objective evidence a paragraph a generalised version of the following fiction-specific paragraph, which was added recently to Wikipedia:Notability (fiction)#Notable_topics:
I ask this not because I think it's a good idea, but because I can see no reason why notability should be relaxed for a sub-topic of a fictional subject but not for a sub-topic of a scientific, biographical, political, military, religious or other article. I would greatly prefer that this paragraph was deleted from WP:FICTION (see my comment at Wikipedia talk:Notability (fiction)#Tired_of_this_policy_being_abused), but if it stands, it should be applied across the board. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 22:20, 29 October 2007 (UTC)
If you have a very long article where a large section is as such not notable (like a descriptiopn of minor characters), then the solution is to reduce that section, not to put it in a separate article. If, on the other hand, these minor characters do have sufficient verifiable notability, then thers is no problem in the first place. Not everything that appears in anything of note should be described on Wikipedia, only the bare minimum to make the article understandable. Fram 16:10, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Please SEMIiprot this page. This policy page has been slashdotted. SYSS Mouse 13:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I've written up a (very rough and embryonic) propsal regarding "semi-notability"; any input, comments, throwing of rotten vegetables, and so forth would be very welcome. Kirill 17:59, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Should this http://en.wikinews.org/wiki/Wikinews:Story_preparation/Wikipedia_versus_the_WebComics:_Define_notability be linked? Herve661 01:39, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Is a requirement of Notability even necessary? This measurement reflects, at best, a subjective measurement of an editor given an exceedingly difficult to define set of rules. Given that text is easily compressed, disk space is cheap, and the [ extreme disagreements] regarding criteria why continue to attempt to enforce notability?
Should Notability be dropped as a guide line? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.18.6.29 ( talk) 16:32, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Can we take a vote on abolishing the notability requirement? I've seen several good articles deleted with the explanation being only that it was "not notable". It really hurts my desire to contribute to Wikipedia. Why would anybody want to contribute when anything they add could be deleted by some asshole who thinks it's not important? Or perhaps we could just limit the notability requirement to images, since enormous amounts of text can take up less storage space and bandwidth than a single tiny image. Herorev 16:44, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Please note that lack of notability is not grounds for speedy deletion per WP:CSD; the closest criteria notability may come into play is in A7 - an article not demonstrating importance may be speedily deleted, but A7 specifically notes notability is a different factor altogether. If a page lacks notability, the page should go to WP:AFD, where discussion about deletion or other methods including trimming, merging, and transwiki'ing, can be held, and allow time for the affected page editors to help establish notability; if all other options to deal with the lack of notability of a page are tried and failed, only then should the page be deleted. There are some people calling for CSD of pages that lack obvious notability, and this is likely where a lot of the trouble begins, but when an article's notability is brought into question, there are rationale debates that should be taking place before deletion comes about. -- MASEM 18:23, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I agree -- MANY people make excellent points [ at this slashdot article] and feel that the Notability requirement is unnecessary. If nothing else, article deletions too easily cause useful contributors to stop contributing and the last thing Wikipedia needs is to piss off valuable contributors.-- 69.242.121.194 00:32, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I see that someone has added a link to " rebuttable presumption" in defining "presumed" but has gotten it completely backwards. Notability is based on objective evidence, and once sufficient reliable sources are found, that makes a prima facia case for notability. It is non-notability that is the rebuttable presumption, not notability. We presume something is non-notable if a reasonable search for reliable sources turns up empty. It's not possible to prove non-notability because that would be a negative proof.
Notwithstanding this, I don't think there is any need to presume anything in this guideline. We should simply say that something is notable if we find sufficient reliable sources and leave it at that. Dhaluza 10:57, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Ok, after having so many of my articles rather unjustly tagged with notability tag, i am proposing a few guidelines...
they're all pretty simple...
I'll call the first one the "name more than 10" rule...
Basically, if someone put up an article on, say, a Japanese philosopher, and you cannot name more than 10 Japanese philosopher by heart, then you should have no business putting notability tags on the article... The reason is pretty simple, because if you can't even name more than 10 Japanese Philosopher, then obviously you know very little, or worse, nothing about the subject... it would be like a guy who grew up in Sahrawi who is an expert on Camels trying to decide whether Martin van Buren is notable or not...
second rule: "check number of editor" no one is omniscient here, but if 5 different guys decide that they have something to add to some obscure article, then, well, that article probably isn't all that obscure...
third rule is "if the article doesn't relate to your culture", check its equivalent in other languages.... if an English article is a stub with a heading that no one's heard of, but the same article has a super long equivalent in Estonian and then well... it pretty much means that the article IS notable... a general rule of thumb.. if an article appears in two or more languages, each with different non-bot editors, then it pretty much means that it IS noteworthy....
fourth rule, if an article is deemed to be insignificant, and has an equivalent article in other languages, then make sure that when you place notability tags, the tag is placed in all language versions of the article... if editors from the other language decides that the notability tag is inappropriate, then the notability tag is probably not appropriate in English either... Most English editors, i have found, are pretty ignorant in terms of knowing other culture... but get this: not-known-in-English is not the same as not notable... The difference between Sunni and Shiites wasn't very well known in English either... you get the point...
fifth rule,
part 1. copy and paste into google... this is a pretty sure fire way of knowing whether or not something is notable...
part 2, when copying and pasting, make sure you're not just copying and pasting English texts if the article relates to subjects in other cultures...
for example Jin Yong, aka Cha, Liang yong, whose book have sold over a hundred million copies, has a mere 32 google results under his birth name, Cha liang yong, if you don't know any better, you might slap a notability tag on the article... but searching the same thing in Chinese return some 50000 results... and searching for his pen name in chinese reutrns 2.5 million results... see the difference? Philosophy.dude 02:14, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Firstly, please remember that a notability tag does not call for the deletion of the article. It simply calls attention to a problem with it, just like a weasel-words tag points out that the article has a weasel word problem that needs fixing, an unreferenced tag points out that there's a lack of references, and so on. A notability tag calls attention to a problem—"I can't tell why the subject of this article is important or significant, nor are sufficient reliable sources cited to assure that it indeed is by the volume of material on it." Articles are supposed to be written for the layperson, and should tell that layperson, who has never before today heard of the topic in question, the answer to their first question upon coming to that article—"Why would anyone care about this?" If an article lacks a good, clear answer to that question that's easily understood by a person who knows nothing on the subject, it has a flaw that needs immediate corrective action. (Or in short, it should ideally always be someone outside the subject who knows little or nothing about it evaluating if the article properly answers "Who cares?", since it's very hard to evaluate objectively if you already know.) Seraphimblade Talk to me 05:40, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm going to start by quoting a few comments from a slashdot article that I think contain some very valid ideas and then go on to create a synthesis of why I think this policy is a blight on wikipedia.
The great ongoing pop culture notability purges are an ongoing failure point for Wikipedia.
Maybe some admins and users have taken the various "Wikipedia vs. Britanica" comparisons of years past a little too much to heart, and are trying to "improve" Wikipedia by removing all of those articles which wouldn't ever appear in Britanica, but that's an extremely short-sighted thing to do. I mean, "A page for every Pokemon" may be a catchy (if inaccurate) joke about Wikipedia, but it also represents a strength, not a weakness: After all, there are lots of places one can go on the internet to find information about, say, France, or The Battle of the Nile, or Channel Island Politics; there aren't nearly as many places you can go to learn actual facts about Patrick Farley's award-winning comics, or the differences between all of the various Gundam Wing incarnations, or the full internet career arc of Star Wars Kid.
By Ray Radlein
For Encarta or EB to have an article on "Bob the Angry Flower", Microsoft or Britannica has to pay professionals real money to research and write the article for the subject. And in the past, EB would have had the added problem of the size of the encyclopedia adding to its cost and manageability for end users. By comparison, in Wikipedia we're talking about articles that have already been written and contributed for free, that - if truly non-noteworthy - add fractions of a cent to the costs of running Wikipedia as an on-going operation. Bandwidth costs for an article nobody reads are non-existent, the only real cost is storage. How much does 10 kilobytes cost?
I'm not proposing (and didn't propose - I did the opposite) that there's no reason for AFDs at all, but I do believe that as deleting legitimate articles has a real cost and DOES undermine Wikipedia more than keeping a non-notable article, the discretion should be on the side of not deleting. Fast track processes for article deletion in particular need to be reviewed so only the narrowest of criteria can apply to them. That is not the case right now.
Personally I can't see how a periodically updated openly available webcomic is not a legitimate subject for an encyclopedia article in an environment such as Wikipedia's where the contribution cost is free and the maintenance cost is more or less proportional to the webcomic's notability. Unless the comic is being used as a wedge to pass by genuinely unencyclopedic content, there's no legitimate reason to delete such articles.
by squigleslash
Trivia to you may be critical information to someone else. Obscure facts are often important to someone, even if most people could do without them. It may do little good to keep it there, but it does NO good to take it away (and I'd suggest makes it worse, as people will often check WP first knowing that it'll have an article on even the most obscure things, only to find it's gone).
by Firehed
If half of the effort that some people put into finding articles to mark for deletion, deliberating and discussing deletion, checking, verifying and then finally deleting the article - if half of the effort people put into destroying content were instead put into creating or improving content, Wikipedia would be so much better.
by Tom
The fact is that "notability" is used by and far the most as a reason to get rid of something. In reality it merely serves to muddy the waters of any debate or discussion surrounding the inclusion of an article. The word "Notable" automatically brings to mind a very subjective idea of importance, tainting any debate and unnecessarily confusing users. But this is not what the policy is: just look at the "this page in a nutshell" box for proof. What is meant by notability here is completely covered by other policies such as
Verifiability. Having this particular policy encourages users to cite it as a bar for inclusion that is not met when they have other reasons for wanting to get rid of an article. This practice is completely unhelpful. Without this specific policy, editors would be forced to look at the real reasons to not include something.
Take a quick glance at the
Articles for deletion page will quickly show that nearly every single one cites notability as the cause, when in fact they mean verifiability. Look at November 1st, as of this writing there were 38 entries, and all but four or five of them used notability as a primary reason for not including (or including) content. Sometimes it seems like people just like the alliteration of "non-notable" and the fact that it gives them an extra bullet point. It's used synonymously with verifiability when in fact verifiability should be what is cited, but this usage is due to the nature of the policy.
There simply is no good reason other than what is already contained in other policies to exclude content. Including something that is accurate and verifiable by reliable independent sources does not harm wikipedia at all, while deletion of said material does harm it. Ardent †alk ∈ 11:18, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
There seems to be widespread consensus, both here and in the wider Wikipedia community, that the general notability guideline (requiring significant coverage in secondary sources) must be met in all cases, in order to assert notability. I propose we take this one step further and agree that "Notability is never inherent". The latter seems to me to be the logical conclusion of the former, and no new concepts are required to take this step. I propose that the following section be added to WP:N:
This section will probably deprecate the "Notability requires objective evidence" section. I'm not looking for a straw poll on this issue, I'm looking for meaningful discussion on the proposal, hopefully leading to consensus. Comments please? — gorgan_almighty 10:28, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I do not agree with this and think that it also goes against the way Wikipedia has worked in the past. The problem with linking notability to sources is that it just moves the subjectivity further away. For example, I do not see we agree about what a "secondary source" is. Is a scientific paper a primary source or a secondary source? I have seen people argue the first and that review articles are secondary. I have seen people argue the second and say that laboratory notebooks are the primary source. Other problems arise with terms such as reliable, independent etc. However the main point is that sources allow us to write an article. They do not do a good job in determining whether we have an article. Notability is the latter. While difficult to define, notability is really about whether people expect to find information about the topic in an encyclopedia. Inherent characteristics are important here. We expect to find an article on any town or village on the planet. We expect to find information on every soccer player who has played for his country in an important match. There is a discussion somewhere recently about bishops and whether they are notable. the point was made that nobody really thinks a Pope is not notable even though in some cases very little information is available. People expect an article, however short, on every Pope. Readers may not always actually find such an article either because nobody has written it or because there are no sources to build it on, but the topics are still notable. The tendency to drive all discussion on notability to whether we can write an article is likely to weaken wikipedia and not make it easy for new editors to know what to write about (or rather look for sources on). I think we should be going in the opposite direction and having WikiProjects and other groupings of editors working out in an open and transparent way, open to criticism by others, of inherent characteristics for topics. The policies, WP:V, WP:OR, etc then take over to decide whether we actually write the article. Deciding what to include in an encyclopedia is always subjective in some ways. Traditional encyclopedia use teams of expert editors. We have to use the good sense that comes from consensus of interested editors working together in a civil way. There is no magic bullet. -- Bduke 11:08, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Strongly Oppose would you mind showing proof of this alleged widespread consensus for rendering all the specific guidelines obsolete? Not a vague claim of prolonged discussion, or look in the archives somewhere, I want you to show me something specific. You were one of the big proponents of merging everything into WP:N which was overwhelmingly rejected, but keep claiming there's a consensus for changes that have the same net effect. Of course, I'm still waiting for a response from when you tried this in WP:BIO last month and all that could be found was 3 people in an unmarked discussion. Horrorshowj 13:41, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
Aren't all geographical entries allowed, even if they only have the primary census data? There are still many articles created by the census dump that never went beyond the primary census data. That is an example of inherent notability. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 22:55, 31 October 2007 (UTC)
I see that Wikipedia:Notability is now prominently listed throughout policy pages as one of six “Article Standard” policies and guidelines, with: Neutral point of view (WP:NPOV), Verifiability (WP:VERIFY), No original research (WP:NOR), Biographies on living persons (WP:BLP) and Deletion policy (WP:DEL). This is an interesting milestone. -- SmokeyJoe 00:58, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
The definition of Notability implies that this is a property of the topic and not the article, but in many AfD discussions it seems to be treated as a property of the article. Could that be brought out as a bullet point in the "General notability guideline" section? An article that lacks sources should be improved or called up on WP:V. Notability only applies to the topic of the article, not the article itself. Mdmkolbe 17:49, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Why create a guideline or policy which functionally discourages more information on wikipedia? If someone wants to write an extended article on character x from eclectic game y then food them, that games community and the wiki. We shouldn't be deliberately preventing people from putting as much information up here as they want. 122.104.225.84 12:20, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Are public school automatically considered notable, or do they have no assert it like any other topic? VivioFa teFan ( Talk, Sandbox) 16:50, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I've seen two recent AFD debates that were heavily basing WP:N on non-english sources ( done and ongoing). I understand and support the use of non-english sources to add information and act as references and reliable sources, but do they also apply to justify notability? Something that has extensive coverage in all languages except english on english wikipedia, would mean that it has notability in the countries or areas where the language is spoken, but has not made the leap to international news or research. It's a fine line between english (or any language) chauvinism and the reality of a phenomenon not moving out of a limited geographic or cultural area. Coming down against non-english sources for notability obviously would mean a greater limitation of what appears on En wikipedia. Has this been covered before, or is it hair splitting to say something works for WP:RS but not WP:N? WLU 17:17, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Wow, good timing. I'm actually engaged in yet another AfD discussion where this issue has come up and came here looking to propose an addition to the policy.
Basically, I'd like to put in something comparable to the clause about notability not being temporary titled "Notability is not limited by language or culture". My interpretation of the guidelines allows for the establishment of notability regardless of language or culture--for example, the fact that something was written about extensively in the Indian press but not the Western press does not change the fact that it was written about in the press and thus fulfills the requirements of the current guidelines.
Although foreign-language sources make it harder to verify content, they are ultimately permitted under WP:V. Given the frequency with which this question is raised in AfD, I simply believe they should be explicitly allowed for the purpose of establishing notability as well. -- jonny-mt( t)( c) Tell me what you think! 01:40, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I've always understood that the existence of an article on wikipedia is not proof of notability and therefore non-existence of an article is not proof on non-notability. Is this written in any guideline cause i can't find it. -- Neon white 22:17, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I have multiple objections to Centrx’s reversion.
First, you are undoing many of the changes that were agreed upon after long months long discussions. You are reinstating, without any discussion, several items that were widely rejected in May.
Second, to quote Centrx - “As always, it would be best to make gradual and discrete changes”.
Third, “presumed” is more accurate. Ultimately, a topic is only sufficiently notable if a consensus at AfD says it is. Thus, flatly saying a topic is notable if it meets the general criterion is incorrect - we’ve all seen articles rejected at AfD that do meet the criterion. There have multiple longstanding objections to creating a “wikidefinition” of notability - a word in common usage. Describing it as a presumption avoids creating a separate definition and more accurately describes the actual guideline.
Fourth, the “rationale” section you added is simply incorrect. WP:V and WP:NOR do not require multiple sources as the language suggests. It does not serve us well to have a rationale section that is logically weak and inaccurately characterizes Wikipedia policy.-- Kubigula ( talk) 04:02, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I feel that a recent rewording of WP:FICT now directly contradicts this guideline (among others) - I have brought up the issue here - if anyone would like to comment. [[ Guest9999 12:57, 15 November 2007 (UTC)]]
I dispute this section's position in this guideline. Guidelines are based on either:
1. Wikimedia-wide policy conventions that have been established among all the Wikimedia projects.
2. Current conventions, practices, and standards, established over time by consensus among Wikipedia editors.
As different projects have their own deletion policies and inclusion standard, I doubt this is based on number 1. However, this process is hardly a common practice (at least now) and no longer refers to current conventions or practices. I propose that this section be: a. Reworded to reflect actual common practice, b. Removed entirely, c. Moved to a less binding process page, or some combination of these. Mr. Z-man 19:31, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
I have seen the procedures outlined on this page followed, but I have to agree that the actual phrasing does not follow the general practice. If there is no assertion of notability (in the dictionary/CSD sense, not the WP:N sense), then the article is speedy deleted. If there is a marginal assertion of notability, then the article is generally speedy deleted or goes to AfD. It's usually only when there is an assertion of notability but no references that this procedure is actually followed. Unfortunately, it would be hard to lay all that out here, as CSD and WP:N use the word "notability" in a different context.-- Kubigula ( talk) 22:01, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Is this the place to discuss these things? I think that the standards for notability on wikipedia are a bit too strict, perhaps in how they are worded, and perhaps in how they are enforced. As an example, take the recent debate over the page Gamma Zee. When I read the guidelines I understand how people feel this page ought to be deleted. I think about it, and I realize that other people are making valid arguments to delete the page based on the guidelines, and I simply disagree with the guidelines. What is the appropriate avenue for discussion about this? This page is just an example--I feel this topic comes up very often. Cazort ( talk) 03:00, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
If we are supposed to be compiling the sum of all human knowledge, then who is to decide what is or is not notable? If the article is not properly documented or is written in a style that is inconsistent with an encyclopedia, then by all means feel free to mark the article as inappropriate or, god forbid, make some changes yourself. But to delete an article based on the fact that it is not notable enough? That is pure madness. That is why I vote AGAINST wikipedia notability as a system used to delete information. I do, however, support wikipedia notability to remain as an article to document the history of wikipedia. -- Macdaddy5539 ( talk) 07:39, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
Was there one? Wikipedia:SCHOOLCONSENSUS was just created which appears to be aiming for that? • Lawrence Cohen 06:14, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Does this line in Template:Notability:
Mean that this line in this article:
Should be changed? -- Hebisddave ( talk) 19:48, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I have removed the rationale section that was recently added to the article, for the following reasons:
First, the section does not actually justify the existence of WP:N. It justifies a rigorous application of WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:NOT, but not actual notability guidelines.
Second, its interpretation of WP:V and WP:NPOV is not uncontroversial. For instance, it's entirely possible for an article to be verified with only one reliable source. Also, "WP:NOT a directory" is not a principle that should (generally or perhaps even never) be applied across articles. – Black Falcon ( Talk) 19:14, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
The [Name of group] are an Amazonian jungle tribe with a total population of around 20. (National Geographic, December 2007).