So that we don't end up talking in circles or reiterating previous discussion, please read through WP:CONSENSUS to see what we are trying to shoot for. Ideally, we need to find an arrangement that everyone will be happy with. This may involve more stringent guidelines or discussions and analyses of current Wikipedia policies and guidelines to determine if this amendment would be in violation of them. Some key points:
There will be two parts of this page; one section will be devoted to discussing changes to this amendment to become more aligned with current policies and practices, the other will be devoted to discussing whether this amendment's concept is already in violation of policies and other issues brought up under the Rationales section. It is encouraged that editors create subheadings under these two sections to better handle discussion flow.
Proposed changes (changes are bolded and italicized):
It sounds like this might be OK. There should be rules about it similar to whatever is used on the main page. I guess it's full protection. There needs to be something that stops people from being able to make a portal and put FU images on it whenever they want. Maybe only allow it on Featured Portals. Then use something like { {Wikipedia:Today's featured article/{ {CURRENTMONTHNAME}} { {CURRENTDAY}}, { {CURRENTYEAR}}}}. - Peregrine Fisher 22:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
My understanding of the fair use law and rationale is that there would be absolutely no problem including a fair use image as part of a selected article (including biographies etc.) as they are there for illustrative purposes. However, fair use images should probably not be used as selected pictures, because they're not there to illustrate a subject but to be the subject. If the proposed wording is changed so that fair use images can't be used for "selected picture"/"selected image", I'm strongly in favour of the change. In fact, I would also argue the converse: if you can't use fair use images for portals, you shouldn't be allowed to use them in articles either. Waggers 10:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
This proposal seems to be based on the strange assumption that a failure to gain consensus to change policy means that there is no consensus to not change the policy, and we therefore have to restart the conversation. In any case, this is not a good idea for the same reasons it hasn't been a good idea all the other times it has been raised. Jkelly 21:26, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Is it really all that hard to get free use images for portals? Come on. IvoShandor 22:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Try almost any portal under computer and video games here. And derivitive works are covered under US copyright so a drawing of Mario would have to be fair use as well. - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 22:14, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I think we could continue to prevent fair use images from portals, and prevent their use on the main page, in the interest that lack of images usable in these instances will encourage users to go find free ones that we can use on these pages, and in the article(s). This is similar to "we would rather have no image than a fair use image" on an article for the same purpose. Folks are less inclined to find a free image if they have permission to use a fair use one. If someone really wants to use an image on a portal/main page, they can go look for a free one. Granted, they won't always be able to find/create one, but there's no immediate demand. We'll wait. -- MECU≈ talk 22:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Look in the upper left of this very page that you are looking at. Below the Wikipedia globe and "Wikipedia", you'll see it says "The Free Encyclopedia". Fair use images are, by definition, not free. The use of fair use images greatly diminishes our ability to achieve the goals originally set out by the project. The less fair use, the better. The project has lived quite well so far without portals being permitted to have fair use images. -- Durin 22:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I will pretty much oppose using the same reasoning as MECU. While some portals are not following the rules, that should not be an excuse to allow others to do the same. We should be beyond that as Wikipedian editors (and for some of us, administrators). Of course, this will require editors to patrol "another beat" to make sure everyone complies, but I am sure we will manage to have a pretty good encyclopedia, even if portals do not have fair use photos on them. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 23:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The change noted here has confused me somewhat. The original wording was that opponents of this amendment feel all images on portal space are essentially unneccessary and it is only by virtue of being free that the current images are not removed. By adding that only fair use images are unneccessary you're saying that if a free image were to be used in some context on a portal (e.g. a selected article entry) it may in fact be neccessary, but if a fair-use image were to be used in the same context (new entry) it suddenly became unneccessary to use an image in the first place? - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 05:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
but your argument basically falls on the idea that all use of images are unneccesary. - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 15:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
did you happen to look to portals about cartoons/comics/video games? Ok... i finally figured it out, all those kinds of portals can have fair use images of their creators. But what if they aren't any good? Go read the guidelines for portals at WP:Portal, Wikipedia:Portal/Guidelines, and Wikipedia:Featured portal criteria. Portals need to be able to continually change their content. Their purpose is to showcase the best articles that a topic has, it shouldn't have to show either the same one or two good articles with free images for over a year, or always show a few substandard articles on the media's creators. Portals devoid of free images:
I don't think you looked very hard in the categories being discussed. While there are a small number of possible unfree images that could be realistically used (creators, artists), because of the very nature of a portal it is impractical to demand that those be the only images, and subsequently the only articles ever brought to light on the portals. Now articles are being selected on basis of free images rather than content. - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 15:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I think this is well-written, and would have a positive effect on Wikipedia as a whole. It would obviously make portals more useful to users, it would not subject Wikimedia to any additional liability, it would not go against our core principles, and it would be unlikely to "creep" into justifying fair-use images in other places (such as user pages). – Quadell ( talk) ( random) 03:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
What about those "vector images" I have seen of cartoon characters and the like? I swear some were FPs. IvoShandor 06:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The villain is Snidely Whiplash. Not sure about the others, but they look kind of familiar, too. - Peregrine Fisher 00:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The reason that there are no fair-use images in portals is very simple... alot more people edit and care about articles than edit and care about portals. That's it. No other reason. If we look at the matter logically, fair-use images in portals actually make more sense than their use in articles, but that doesn't matter because to date there have not been enough portal maintainers to force the issue... as opposed to article maintainers, where the issue has been totally over-whelmed and outright fair-use violations often go unchecked for months or years because there are too many to keep track of. Arguments against fair-use in portals tend to be either self-definitional/circular ('only things in article space may have fair use images... therefor things outside of article space may not') or vastly more applicable to article space, where they are allowed anyway:
Ironically, the greatest impediment against 'fair use' on portals, where they would be a minor and controllable concern, is their extensive mis-use on articles, where they are a significant problem that can't be contained... but which is allowed anyway. -- CBD 11:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
By the way, the idea that portals are more policeable is really false in practice. We already have a strict and easy to understand policy against fair use in portals. Yet, fair use violations on portals are routine. I perform fair use image violation removals on a regular basis on portals now. It'd just be worse if we had a more lenient, less clear cut policy. -- Durin 17:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'm not going to get into this particular point - except to say that the issue clearly is not dead. Wishing it so seems... uh... well, weak.--
Bookandcoffee 01:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, that comment wasn’t much help - I just got home from work and sat down to finish reading this talk page and the first section I came to is this “thus be it dead” thing. Frankly, large portions of these arguments seem to shout ‘’legalese’’ and just make me tired. If the image is worth including in the original text of the article then it’s worth including in the portal version (in some cases it’s the exact same thing with the page simply being transcluded). I fail to see why it needs to be more complicated than that. If it’s a big concern then why not move images that are tagged as FU from
File:Snoopy.png to
Fairuse:Snoopy.png and if there is an actual legal issue down the road we can readdress the problem and filter the (now discernable) images in what ever fashion is required. Splitting hairs and fighting about yet-to-be-even-threatened liabilities is what you do at $250/hr, but maybe not so much when you’re volunteering in your spare time…--
Bookandcoffee
03:08, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
i'm not asking that every opposer refute the points i make. but somebody needs to. I disagree with the notion all i've been doing is reposting the same thing over and over. while some seperate threads may contain similarities to others for the sake of clarity (rather than "see X discussion") each discussion on its own was an attempt to develop the ideas presented. the problem has been the same points being repeated over and over. someone brings up the problem with the fact that if we allowed portals to use fair use (originally ed, when this page was first created) many people would probably abuse it and we would now have to worry about finding copyright violations in the portal space (this whole "policing issue"). I argued back that potential abuse has no justification (otherwise we shouldn't be allowing articles on the penis). everyone had long enough opportunity for a rebuttal. instead it is ignored and the original argument just repeated by others in different threads. i aplogize if you mistook the euphemism of regurgitate to be calling your arguments to puke, i merely meant that while it looked different each time, you were still just coming up with the same things over and over. and IvoShandor... you are probably right... none of the opponents of this proposition came into the discussion with the hope of consensus. I am willing to be convinced, but answering my questions posed (even if posed argumentatively) with a mere rewording of the orignal opposition instead of a direct response and explanation is hardly convincing. It's a shame that the way this works is, "Things will stay the same because we who like it that way aren't going to bother with those who don't." How many people came in, left a lone comment and then never responded to inquiries to their reasoning? What I wanted was a real discussion on this whole libre thing. It's probably the most legitimate point for opposition, but all i got was a rehash of "Wiki is free" or silence. - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 14:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no reason to allow fair use images on portals, because there is no case where a portal must contain a particular image—or any images at all; this is not like an article where one particular image may need to be discussed and nothing else can possibly substitute. We should use non-free images minimally if we must use them at all, and we should definitely not be showcasing this work. Regardless of whether it's legal or policeable—it's not necessary I appreciate that some topics are more difficult to illustrate without them; however, if a free image cannot be found there is no reason a portal needs images at all; their purpose is for visual/decorative interest. It's discouraging to see people trying to expand the use of non-free media here. Kat Walsh (spill your mind?) 02:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Fair use exemptions#Removing exception in policy for "Main Page" to gauge consensus for not allowing fair use images in the main page at all. Since part of this amendment is based in the Main page ability to use fair use image, you may find it interesting. -- ReyBrujo 04:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
point in fact, when articles on topics pertaining the kinds of portals being discussed here, those fair use images remain on the main page. Just to illustrate though, that in fact many images are not removed for sake of argument:
These were just from this past month. I could probably skim through the past six months and pull up specific references to Torchic or something but i don't think it's necessary for you to get my point. - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 07:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Another possible reason to allow a fair use image on each portal under our current strict rules, was actually broght up by an editor arguing against making "Today's featured article" having a fair use image: Articles are becomming featured faster than they can appear on the main page. My idea is that those articles that don't make it to the main page could be featured on portals. In the case where the article is about a visual work of fiction, a screenshot would be both justified and make the encyclopedia better.-- GunnarRene 16:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I was originally merely going to argue this in a reply, but it's relevant to a couple threads. I'd like to point out that portals, in addition to being used as navigation, are also used as an alternative to articles. They provide a lot of information on the different facets of a topic without the reader having to read the entirety of many different articles. There's an introduction to the topic and a sample of the articles contained in the topic. In essence the portal has become a main article on it's own only with dynamic content. However, as opposed to articles, the portals do not encourage the addition of more fair use, they are only reusing what is already there. When someone creates an article on a subject that will inherently require a fair-use image, our number of fair-use images goes up, but when someone creates a portal it only contains precreated content. We are not undermining our principles by having an image that is already included in one place being included somewhere else. And images in portals contribute as much as they do within the articles they are featuring. - Zappernapper 16:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
but the application of fair use images this proposal is seeking approval for is not decoration. It's to assist the reader in understanding the topic in general and the selected article in particular - the whole logic behind fair use anyways. and before you quote legalities read the intro to this talk page and then take a stop by WP:PERENNIAL#Legal issues, portals are not forbidden from using fair use for legal reasons and to suggest that they are is fallacious. And i fail to see how when Torchic is featured on it's respective portal that it's image is only decorative. It is no less decorative than it's use on it's actual article. - Zappernapper 16:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
that's like saying an article can discuss the subject without use of any images. of course thank you for proving my orignal point to Angr when they changed one of the "Against" rationales from reading:
to:
And we're not really talking about Buffy, we're talking about X-men, Simpsons, and Pokemon. And the answer to the question, "Is an image necessary to be of the utmost usefulness to a reader?" is not as plain as it appears to you. Instead of regurgitating, "You don't need it" five different ways, try explaining why we don't need. Or more specifcally, why do articles need it any more than portals? If anything, an article has plenty of space to visually describe Jabba the Hutt, while a portal only has a paragraph or two. The depiction of the character seems much more necessary to me for purposes of usefulness and explanation. An example like that goes beyond even mere "identification" that many articles use as their fair use rationale. You've done nothing but repeat the same arguement without explaining your reasoning. You say that an unliscened picture is never required to aid in understanding. Therefore, no picture is really ever required, because the idea that the legal status of an image soehow affects its usefulness is logically flawed. And furthermore that would lead us to believe that since images are completely unneccessary to the encyclopedia they are something to be avoided. you don't even have consensus or policy to back you up for that regarding fair use images. your plain answer of "no" carries a lot of underlying logic that is antithetical to current consensus, precedent, and internal structure. so don't try hiding behind Foundation policy when you make that claim. - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 06:41, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the supporting rationale that "Because portals interconnect with articles, categories, wikiprojects, and other materials relating to their subject they are inherently very difficult to 're-use' elsewhere, thus limiting any loss of 're-usability' which might arise from the appearance of fair use images on the portal." I fail to see how it is a strong supporting rationale. Fair use images tend to limit re-usability, period. -- Iamunknown 06:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
i don't know... utilizing fair-use essentially guarantees that wikipedia will always be free and that any derivitives of it will also be free. and that is because fair-use forbids commercial use. with fair-use present, the foundation couln't really ever just shut down the whole project and then start trying to sell CDs to people for a profit without severely compromising several articles. fair-use just means non-profit use... and isn't that what free is? - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 17:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
So that we don't end up talking in circles or reiterating previous discussion, please read through WP:CONSENSUS to see what we are trying to shoot for. Ideally, we need to find an arrangement that everyone will be happy with. This may involve more stringent guidelines or discussions and analyses of current Wikipedia policies and guidelines to determine if this amendment would be in violation of them. Some key points:
There will be two parts of this page; one section will be devoted to discussing changes to this amendment to become more aligned with current policies and practices, the other will be devoted to discussing whether this amendment's concept is already in violation of policies and other issues brought up under the Rationales section. It is encouraged that editors create subheadings under these two sections to better handle discussion flow.
Proposed changes (changes are bolded and italicized):
It sounds like this might be OK. There should be rules about it similar to whatever is used on the main page. I guess it's full protection. There needs to be something that stops people from being able to make a portal and put FU images on it whenever they want. Maybe only allow it on Featured Portals. Then use something like { {Wikipedia:Today's featured article/{ {CURRENTMONTHNAME}} { {CURRENTDAY}}, { {CURRENTYEAR}}}}. - Peregrine Fisher 22:01, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
My understanding of the fair use law and rationale is that there would be absolutely no problem including a fair use image as part of a selected article (including biographies etc.) as they are there for illustrative purposes. However, fair use images should probably not be used as selected pictures, because they're not there to illustrate a subject but to be the subject. If the proposed wording is changed so that fair use images can't be used for "selected picture"/"selected image", I'm strongly in favour of the change. In fact, I would also argue the converse: if you can't use fair use images for portals, you shouldn't be allowed to use them in articles either. Waggers 10:06, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
This proposal seems to be based on the strange assumption that a failure to gain consensus to change policy means that there is no consensus to not change the policy, and we therefore have to restart the conversation. In any case, this is not a good idea for the same reasons it hasn't been a good idea all the other times it has been raised. Jkelly 21:26, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Is it really all that hard to get free use images for portals? Come on. IvoShandor 22:02, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Try almost any portal under computer and video games here. And derivitive works are covered under US copyright so a drawing of Mario would have to be fair use as well. - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 22:14, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I think we could continue to prevent fair use images from portals, and prevent their use on the main page, in the interest that lack of images usable in these instances will encourage users to go find free ones that we can use on these pages, and in the article(s). This is similar to "we would rather have no image than a fair use image" on an article for the same purpose. Folks are less inclined to find a free image if they have permission to use a fair use one. If someone really wants to use an image on a portal/main page, they can go look for a free one. Granted, they won't always be able to find/create one, but there's no immediate demand. We'll wait. -- MECU≈ talk 22:05, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Look in the upper left of this very page that you are looking at. Below the Wikipedia globe and "Wikipedia", you'll see it says "The Free Encyclopedia". Fair use images are, by definition, not free. The use of fair use images greatly diminishes our ability to achieve the goals originally set out by the project. The less fair use, the better. The project has lived quite well so far without portals being permitted to have fair use images. -- Durin 22:17, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
I will pretty much oppose using the same reasoning as MECU. While some portals are not following the rules, that should not be an excuse to allow others to do the same. We should be beyond that as Wikipedian editors (and for some of us, administrators). Of course, this will require editors to patrol "another beat" to make sure everyone complies, but I am sure we will manage to have a pretty good encyclopedia, even if portals do not have fair use photos on them. User:Zscout370 (Return Fire) 23:20, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
The change noted here has confused me somewhat. The original wording was that opponents of this amendment feel all images on portal space are essentially unneccessary and it is only by virtue of being free that the current images are not removed. By adding that only fair use images are unneccessary you're saying that if a free image were to be used in some context on a portal (e.g. a selected article entry) it may in fact be neccessary, but if a fair-use image were to be used in the same context (new entry) it suddenly became unneccessary to use an image in the first place? - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 05:27, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
but your argument basically falls on the idea that all use of images are unneccesary. - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 15:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
did you happen to look to portals about cartoons/comics/video games? Ok... i finally figured it out, all those kinds of portals can have fair use images of their creators. But what if they aren't any good? Go read the guidelines for portals at WP:Portal, Wikipedia:Portal/Guidelines, and Wikipedia:Featured portal criteria. Portals need to be able to continually change their content. Their purpose is to showcase the best articles that a topic has, it shouldn't have to show either the same one or two good articles with free images for over a year, or always show a few substandard articles on the media's creators. Portals devoid of free images:
I don't think you looked very hard in the categories being discussed. While there are a small number of possible unfree images that could be realistically used (creators, artists), because of the very nature of a portal it is impractical to demand that those be the only images, and subsequently the only articles ever brought to light on the portals. Now articles are being selected on basis of free images rather than content. - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 15:32, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I think this is well-written, and would have a positive effect on Wikipedia as a whole. It would obviously make portals more useful to users, it would not subject Wikimedia to any additional liability, it would not go against our core principles, and it would be unlikely to "creep" into justifying fair-use images in other places (such as user pages). – Quadell ( talk) ( random) 03:54, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
What about those "vector images" I have seen of cartoon characters and the like? I swear some were FPs. IvoShandor 06:05, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
The villain is Snidely Whiplash. Not sure about the others, but they look kind of familiar, too. - Peregrine Fisher 00:15, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
The reason that there are no fair-use images in portals is very simple... alot more people edit and care about articles than edit and care about portals. That's it. No other reason. If we look at the matter logically, fair-use images in portals actually make more sense than their use in articles, but that doesn't matter because to date there have not been enough portal maintainers to force the issue... as opposed to article maintainers, where the issue has been totally over-whelmed and outright fair-use violations often go unchecked for months or years because there are too many to keep track of. Arguments against fair-use in portals tend to be either self-definitional/circular ('only things in article space may have fair use images... therefor things outside of article space may not') or vastly more applicable to article space, where they are allowed anyway:
Ironically, the greatest impediment against 'fair use' on portals, where they would be a minor and controllable concern, is their extensive mis-use on articles, where they are a significant problem that can't be contained... but which is allowed anyway. -- CBD 11:36, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
By the way, the idea that portals are more policeable is really false in practice. We already have a strict and easy to understand policy against fair use in portals. Yet, fair use violations on portals are routine. I perform fair use image violation removals on a regular basis on portals now. It'd just be worse if we had a more lenient, less clear cut policy. -- Durin 17:02, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'm not going to get into this particular point - except to say that the issue clearly is not dead. Wishing it so seems... uh... well, weak.--
Bookandcoffee 01:55, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, that comment wasn’t much help - I just got home from work and sat down to finish reading this talk page and the first section I came to is this “thus be it dead” thing. Frankly, large portions of these arguments seem to shout ‘’legalese’’ and just make me tired. If the image is worth including in the original text of the article then it’s worth including in the portal version (in some cases it’s the exact same thing with the page simply being transcluded). I fail to see why it needs to be more complicated than that. If it’s a big concern then why not move images that are tagged as FU from
File:Snoopy.png to
Fairuse:Snoopy.png and if there is an actual legal issue down the road we can readdress the problem and filter the (now discernable) images in what ever fashion is required. Splitting hairs and fighting about yet-to-be-even-threatened liabilities is what you do at $250/hr, but maybe not so much when you’re volunteering in your spare time…--
Bookandcoffee
03:08, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
i'm not asking that every opposer refute the points i make. but somebody needs to. I disagree with the notion all i've been doing is reposting the same thing over and over. while some seperate threads may contain similarities to others for the sake of clarity (rather than "see X discussion") each discussion on its own was an attempt to develop the ideas presented. the problem has been the same points being repeated over and over. someone brings up the problem with the fact that if we allowed portals to use fair use (originally ed, when this page was first created) many people would probably abuse it and we would now have to worry about finding copyright violations in the portal space (this whole "policing issue"). I argued back that potential abuse has no justification (otherwise we shouldn't be allowing articles on the penis). everyone had long enough opportunity for a rebuttal. instead it is ignored and the original argument just repeated by others in different threads. i aplogize if you mistook the euphemism of regurgitate to be calling your arguments to puke, i merely meant that while it looked different each time, you were still just coming up with the same things over and over. and IvoShandor... you are probably right... none of the opponents of this proposition came into the discussion with the hope of consensus. I am willing to be convinced, but answering my questions posed (even if posed argumentatively) with a mere rewording of the orignal opposition instead of a direct response and explanation is hardly convincing. It's a shame that the way this works is, "Things will stay the same because we who like it that way aren't going to bother with those who don't." How many people came in, left a lone comment and then never responded to inquiries to their reasoning? What I wanted was a real discussion on this whole libre thing. It's probably the most legitimate point for opposition, but all i got was a rehash of "Wiki is free" or silence. - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 14:21, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
There is no reason to allow fair use images on portals, because there is no case where a portal must contain a particular image—or any images at all; this is not like an article where one particular image may need to be discussed and nothing else can possibly substitute. We should use non-free images minimally if we must use them at all, and we should definitely not be showcasing this work. Regardless of whether it's legal or policeable—it's not necessary I appreciate that some topics are more difficult to illustrate without them; however, if a free image cannot be found there is no reason a portal needs images at all; their purpose is for visual/decorative interest. It's discouraging to see people trying to expand the use of non-free media here. Kat Walsh (spill your mind?) 02:42, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Fair use exemptions#Removing exception in policy for "Main Page" to gauge consensus for not allowing fair use images in the main page at all. Since part of this amendment is based in the Main page ability to use fair use image, you may find it interesting. -- ReyBrujo 04:13, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
point in fact, when articles on topics pertaining the kinds of portals being discussed here, those fair use images remain on the main page. Just to illustrate though, that in fact many images are not removed for sake of argument:
These were just from this past month. I could probably skim through the past six months and pull up specific references to Torchic or something but i don't think it's necessary for you to get my point. - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 07:17, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Another possible reason to allow a fair use image on each portal under our current strict rules, was actually broght up by an editor arguing against making "Today's featured article" having a fair use image: Articles are becomming featured faster than they can appear on the main page. My idea is that those articles that don't make it to the main page could be featured on portals. In the case where the article is about a visual work of fiction, a screenshot would be both justified and make the encyclopedia better.-- GunnarRene 16:01, 13 April 2007 (UTC)
I was originally merely going to argue this in a reply, but it's relevant to a couple threads. I'd like to point out that portals, in addition to being used as navigation, are also used as an alternative to articles. They provide a lot of information on the different facets of a topic without the reader having to read the entirety of many different articles. There's an introduction to the topic and a sample of the articles contained in the topic. In essence the portal has become a main article on it's own only with dynamic content. However, as opposed to articles, the portals do not encourage the addition of more fair use, they are only reusing what is already there. When someone creates an article on a subject that will inherently require a fair-use image, our number of fair-use images goes up, but when someone creates a portal it only contains precreated content. We are not undermining our principles by having an image that is already included in one place being included somewhere else. And images in portals contribute as much as they do within the articles they are featuring. - Zappernapper 16:59, 28 March 2007 (UTC)
but the application of fair use images this proposal is seeking approval for is not decoration. It's to assist the reader in understanding the topic in general and the selected article in particular - the whole logic behind fair use anyways. and before you quote legalities read the intro to this talk page and then take a stop by WP:PERENNIAL#Legal issues, portals are not forbidden from using fair use for legal reasons and to suggest that they are is fallacious. And i fail to see how when Torchic is featured on it's respective portal that it's image is only decorative. It is no less decorative than it's use on it's actual article. - Zappernapper 16:11, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
that's like saying an article can discuss the subject without use of any images. of course thank you for proving my orignal point to Angr when they changed one of the "Against" rationales from reading:
to:
And we're not really talking about Buffy, we're talking about X-men, Simpsons, and Pokemon. And the answer to the question, "Is an image necessary to be of the utmost usefulness to a reader?" is not as plain as it appears to you. Instead of regurgitating, "You don't need it" five different ways, try explaining why we don't need. Or more specifcally, why do articles need it any more than portals? If anything, an article has plenty of space to visually describe Jabba the Hutt, while a portal only has a paragraph or two. The depiction of the character seems much more necessary to me for purposes of usefulness and explanation. An example like that goes beyond even mere "identification" that many articles use as their fair use rationale. You've done nothing but repeat the same arguement without explaining your reasoning. You say that an unliscened picture is never required to aid in understanding. Therefore, no picture is really ever required, because the idea that the legal status of an image soehow affects its usefulness is logically flawed. And furthermore that would lead us to believe that since images are completely unneccessary to the encyclopedia they are something to be avoided. you don't even have consensus or policy to back you up for that regarding fair use images. your plain answer of "no" carries a lot of underlying logic that is antithetical to current consensus, precedent, and internal structure. so don't try hiding behind Foundation policy when you make that claim. - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 06:41, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the supporting rationale that "Because portals interconnect with articles, categories, wikiprojects, and other materials relating to their subject they are inherently very difficult to 're-use' elsewhere, thus limiting any loss of 're-usability' which might arise from the appearance of fair use images on the portal." I fail to see how it is a strong supporting rationale. Fair use images tend to limit re-usability, period. -- Iamunknown 06:47, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
i don't know... utilizing fair-use essentially guarantees that wikipedia will always be free and that any derivitives of it will also be free. and that is because fair-use forbids commercial use. with fair-use present, the foundation couln't really ever just shut down the whole project and then start trying to sell CDs to people for a profit without severely compromising several articles. fair-use just means non-profit use... and isn't that what free is? - ΖαππερΝαππερ Babel Alexandria 17:34, 13 April 2007 (UTC)