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Hi Vkokielov, I've partially reverted the changes you made. I've left your addition to the intro, which I didn't mind, though others may disagree, as follows:
In order to become known as a reliable source of information, Wikipedia has to impose this restriction on its content. Another way to consider it: what do you expect from your grocery store? Your grocery store doesn't make anything: everything it sells to you, it buys from someone else. Now ask yourself: would you buy from your grocery store if you so much as suspected that what you were buying came from no one knows where? So, too, here at Wikipedia. It's an obligation of Wikipedia to its readers that the information they read here be reliable and reputable.
I've restored your deletion of the "if you have a great idea that should become part of" section, because I think it explains the position quite clearly, but I've deleted "great" because, as you and El C pointed out, it might be seen as patronizing or sarcastic. I also restored your deletion of the sentence saying we'd have to turn away Pulitzer-prize-level journalism or Nobel-level science if its authors tried to publish it here first, as that gets the point across well.
I deleted your grocery story/FDA analogy, which you had replaced the above with, as I felt it labored the point and that the analogy broke down in places, as follows:
If you ran a grocery store, how would you decide from whom to buy your food? Which questions would you ask Mr. Doe if he came to you and said he will sell you the same food you sell now for less than anyone from whom you would buy? If you have an original idea, Wikipedia cannot - and will not - publish it, unless it is good to eat. The only way to make sure it is good to eat is to send it through the FDA of original ideas - the professional publications. Now, of course not every food the FDA forbids will kill you; and so not every original idea which you can't publish is not worth publication. But it would be unfair to sell you beef from England just because mad cow disease doesn't happen very often. In other words, the fact that we exclude something does not necessarily mean that material is bad – Wikipedia is simply not the proper venue for it. We would have to turn away even Pulitzer-level journalism and Nobel-level science if its authors tried to publish it first on Wikipedia.
Others may disagree with me, so of course feel free to restore if that's the consensus. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:05, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
A chance to engage in original research, perhaps? Sorry, could'nt resist. :p El_C 06:34, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I notice the analogy has something of a loophole, which carries through to the wiki case. Imagine wartime. Goods are scarce and people are desperate to get them. In those circumstances, people will take a chance however dodgy the grocery vendor is. Well maybe the meat was classed as fit only for petfood, but its better than starving, and hey the dog's still alive. This holds true here too. What do you do about a topic on which no guaranteed information exists? People still want to know. Best may not be perfect, but is better than nothing. Sandpiper 19:38, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Just one of many reasons why I think a clear and straightforward explanation of the policy and why it is important is better than any analogy.
Slrubenstein |
Talk
19:42, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
How about an article that helps people find quality research for their article, especially in controversial areas? Like that Google Scholar is an amazing tool to find free online scientific papers? Or that blogs about particular subjects often summarize and explain that latest findings and studies in a particular field? Or that prior research is often summarized selectively by opponents in controversial areas (like gun control), so it is a good idea to read what the major opposing organizations present as evidence. Ultramarine 20:16, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Being bold, I just added a paragraph to the "what counts as a reputable publication?" discussing Usenet as a source. Lay on, Macduff, and damn'd be him that first cries, "Hold, enough!" ➥the Epopt 18:05, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
I know nothing about Usenet, but I find it highly unlikely that anyone will run across a topic that has no sources outside of Usenet posts. To me, this makes the need for a specific policy on the use of Usenet citations less critical. Furthermore, I agree with Slrubenstein's comments above (if I understood them correctly): that maybe it's best for us to try to stay away from websites too much. →Iñgōlemo← talk 21:39, 2005 May 8 (UTC)
SlimVirgin quoted me above and accurately represented a general view I have about Wikipedia and the Web. As to this discussion, there is one point I want to add to this conversation: policies cannot cover all possibilities and indeed are meant to be written in such a general way that they can be applied to differenc cases as they come up. Epopt I believe initiated this discussion with a brief comment about usenet. If he is correct (and I will grant that for present purposes) there is simply no need to mention usenet in this policy. Perhaps there is a need for a general discussion of usenet (I know there was a long one on the mailing list) but honestly I just do not believe it belongs here. A general discussion of the strenghts, weaknesses, and uses of usenet belong on the talk page of the usenet article. As to the question of whether it constitutes original research or is a reputable source, I think that has to be debated on a case-by-case basis. Let's wait until someone wants to use usenet as a source on "race" or "Jesus" or "Creationism" or "Fascism" (and so on). Then, the people working on those articles can discuss whether the incorporation of something from usenet violates our NOR policy, or qualifies as a reputabble and verifiable source for that topic. I think our policies are clear enough, right now, that if two people got into an argument over using something from usenet on, say, the Jesus article, the policies as written will be able to guide them in evaluating the appropriateness of that use. In short, this discussion belongs on the talk page of the Usenet article, and more focussed discussions of usenet belong on the talk pages of articles where editors are actually relying on usenet as sources. I don't see the value of talking about it here. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:02, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Thodin, I reverted your edit because I felt it labored the grocer-store analogy a little by going into detail about bakery and deli items, and price. If you feel the analogy as it stands isn't helpful, could you make a suggestion for change here? Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 23:38, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
SlimVirgin,
It really needs a better analogy, but the best I could come up with was to exclude certain parts of a grocery store. Maybe a bunch of encyclopedias in book or CD form might work better. I was hoping someone would edit to improve it and not just merely erase my changes, but you did start a chat.
Another idea is a bakery. That you have to trust what is produced in a bakery -- that the food is safe to eat and what bread is supposed to be. Or if you think the news on TV is lying, you don't trust it. Personally, I'd say comparing it with an encyclopedia you buy or a respected news source (although a lot of news sources aren't so respected and seem biased). So maybe something like if you buy a bunch of encyclopedias from a salesman you except them to be accurate and not just some made up information, badly researched information, or propoganda.
-Thodin (Forgot to sign my name)
I was frankly surprised that the page was even editable by people who didn't have special privladges, but in the history I see everyone tinkering with it. Thing is when I read the grocery store analogy, I immediately thought of all its contradictions. I'd still say just working it by comparing it with a reputable journal or encyclopedia would do better. -Thodin
Thanks. How do I instant message other users through this system? Also, another analogy idea is buying a car -- I think that would fit the grocery idea with possibly some word changes as people are more picky about a car they trust and that places that sell cars don't make them. Or maybe extending the analogy to a chosing a hospital? Thodin 00:33, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I added a section discussing the fact that this policy does not apply to talk pages. While perhaps this should be obvious, I've found that occasionally people cite this rule to support removal of a new user's ideas regarding a subject, which is not only discouraging them from editing but from continuing to think about new ideas. I don't think it says anything that isn't already true, just a reminder. Deco 02:14, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
An important policy discussion has started concerning ways in which our content-related polices, such as NPOV, No original research and Verifiability could be better enforced. I've made a proposal to give the Arbitration Committee the ability to consult Wikipedia users who are knowledgeable in subject-areas that apply to cases before them. Such consultation is needed due to the fact that the ArbCom does not by itself have the requisite knowledge to easily tell what is NPOV, original research, or a fringe idea in every field. Please read my proposal at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/RFC#Alternate solution #9 by mav. Content subcommittee and comment. Thank you! -- mav 02:47, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that this policy is used as a bludgeon by some people to force their POV on to other people. If primary research was as easy as some people implied then we would all have the title Dr. To be original research it has to be more than one sentence or a list of things!
Let me give you an examples:
The first sentence may or may not be true. The first thing that someone who disagrees with it will say is "This is a POV without references". When the author of the sentence provides references, then the objector is able to say that "this is original research because no one else has linked those sources together before, provide me with a reference which has done that or remove this original research".
In the second case it is possible to prove from primary sources on the web that General Sir Alan Flemming Hartley was C-In-C of the Indian army for two month, from January - March 1942. But the only source Web source for a list of C-in-Cs for India gets this wrong. So should one leave the known mistake in the list of C-in-Cs even when a primary source document on the web clearly shows that the secondary source is wrong? Because synthesising a new list which fixes this problem could be construed as primary research. If it is original research and so should be be in Wikipedia, should Wikipedia publish information which it can be proven is false?
In Europe any "collections of information" [1], which a list is, can be copyrighted so in theory any list on Wikipedia which is not a copy from somewhere else could be construed as original research because under the EC Databases Directive [2] which defines a protected collection as "a collection of independent works, data or other materials arranged in a systematic or methodical way and individually accessible by electronic or other means". So does this mean that all lists on Wikipedia which are not copied from somewhere else (which would often place them in breach of copyright) are original research and should be removed from Wikipedia?
See also the 1995 ruling in the "Magill case" [3] Philip Baird Shearer 11:40, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If one uses data mining technique where one trawls data to see if any links appear and them fit a theory to explain the links, is not considered to be legitimate scientific research. To be scientific research, one is meant to come up with a hypothesis and then look to see if the data to prove or disprove the theory. (Reminds me of a policeman in South Africa who explained to me "By law you have to fire a warning shot. So the first shot hits the man with the gun and the second shot is fired at the ceiling".) Does data mining count as original research on Wikipedia and if so why? Philip Baird Shearer 11:57, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why a concrete example let us use a hypothetical example. Suppose that you are looking for all the references for Gorgon so that you can correct a date on the Gorgon page. Using Google you notice that the pages returned show that there is a correlation between the word Gorgon and the geographical spread of the articles returned by the search, so you add a paragraph to the Gorgon page pointing this out. This new fact has not been discovered using "original research" methods, it been acquired via data mining. Philip Baird Shearer 14:01, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Are you saying "original research" does not mean original research? As you will know, "research" has a specific meaning in academic circles (scientific methodology etc). Philip Baird Shearer 13:54, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure the page makes it clear enough that citing sources, although necessary, is not a sufficient guard against original research. Any academic dissertation is a piece of original research that's absolutely crawling with cited sources. -- Angr/ tɔk tə mi 00:53, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well precisely. The "so long as" clause is absolutely necessary. But all too often I see a page up at VfD on the charge of being original research, only to have people vote to keep, arguing that it isn't original research because it cites its sources, and failing to remember your "so long as" clause. I just want to make it clearer that the presence of cited sources alone is no guarantee that a page isn't original research. --
Angr/
tɔk tə mi 23:09, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Name one credible academic journal which would consider publishing as original research a sentence which says: "Major Denis Healey could not be tried at the Nuremberg war crime trials, because he was an Allied service man". If an undergraduate tried to present such as original research project to their professor, she would die laughing. Just because it is a combination of two know facts does not make it is not original research. I am in favour of a ban on original research but it has to be substantive original research. I may not be able to find any article which says "Major Denis Healey could not.." but I can find two references which say that he was a British soldier during world war II and that allies were not tried for war crimes at the Nuremberg war crime trials. To ban the use of such a sentence because it is original research would mean that huge chunks of this encyclopaedia would have to be re-written into a set of quotations. It text would be even more stilted than it already is (A Camel is a horse designed by a committee) and would then probably run into copyright infringements. Philip Baird Shearer 22:48, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I do not think that I am missing any point. I do not think that the "original research" ban
should be applied to things like "Major Denis Healey could not be tried at the Nuremberg war crime trials, because he was an Allied service man" even though it is a synthesis of two facts which although they can be found, can not be found in the same document. Given that do you think that:
-- Philip Baird Shearer 17:31, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Whoops my mistake so lets rephrase it slightly:
-- Philip Baird Shearer 20:30, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
One can be any nationality and a British soldier. If he had fought for the Germans then he would have been a German soldier. Philip Baird Shearer 13:39, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
May an editor cite his own original research, as published in a peer-reviewed journal? -- Trovatore 28 June 2005 16:56 (UTC)
Most certainly. See '1 What is excluded' on the main page, where the steps for doing this are explained. To attempt to ban expert editors who publish in peer-reviewed journals or who write books is self-defeating and impossible to police. Its self defeating since it would exclude a needed body of expertise from Wikpedia, and impossible to police since few editors log in under their own names, so we would never be able to identify those who write about their own research. Apwoolrich 28 June 2005 18:03 (UTC)
would uploading a copy of a public record tax form obtained from the us irs be an allowable source? I am not able to find a copy of the actual form itself, only references to it, and a tv show about it.... It would not be research, per se, but a reference to a particular expense on the sheet, no analysis needed or give... the claim is that a group gave money to a particular person, and since they did, it shows up on their tax form, along with the exact amount... IreverentReverend 2 July 2005 08:51 (UTC)
I think the original research idea utterly fails in connection with popular culture. Consider, for instance, UNIT_dating_controversy. At some point, someone (or several someones) must have sat down and done their own research to find all the UNIT dates in the Dr. Who series. Each individual item in the lists might have a cite, but the combination is a piece of original research used to support the proposition that dating in the series is inconsistent.
The problem is that "original research" is different for popular culture. The "research data" may be available to anyone with a book collection or DVD player, and generally no expertise is needed to verify or refute claims. There are no peer-reviewed journals, and often few relevant published sources of any type.
Ken Arromdee 8 July 2005 20:08 (UTC)
Maybe this article wasn't the best of examples, but I consider statements like "the exact years in which UNIT operates are never made precisely clear" as conclusions. You won't find a published source which says "the UNIT dates aren't clear", except maybe in some obscure fanzine that isn't quoted in the article anyway. The nature of popular culture topics is that information about them beyond names, dates, plot summaries, etc. may not necessarily found in published sources at all.
Consider the following sentence from the Dalek article: "In The Dalek Invasion of Earth (1964) a Dalek emerges from the waters of the River Thames, indicating that they are amphibious to a degree." Should the phrase "indicating that they are amphibious to a degree" be removed, on the grounds that it's a conclusion and someone could conceivably argue that the Dalek isn't amphibious at all? Ken Arromdee 23:25, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
The assertion that there is an ongoing debate in Dr. Who fandom is another example of the same problem. You're not going to find a source that describes the ongoing debates in Dr. Who fandom, in the same way that you might find a source that says "string theory is controversial among physicists." (And "there's a lot of discussion about this topic in newgroups; therefore this topic is controversial" is itself original research which draws a conclusion.) Likewise, you won't find an additional source which says "UNIT dating is inconsistent". Popular culture just doesn't *have* sources in the way that physics or history does; requiring sources for this type of material is unreasonable. The original research ban is ill-suited to popular culture. Ken Arromdee 01:30, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
But as I noted, pointing to newsgroups or forums doesn't work. Saying "There is discussion about this in forums; therefore this is controversial" is a conclusion. After all, not everything discussed in forums is a controversial topic; claiming that something is controversial involves making a judgment call on whether the level of discussion is enough to truly call the topic controversial.
Moreover, forums aren't permanent, and it would again be an unreasonable burden to expect people to save copies of forums just so that their statement "UNIT dating is controversial" won't violate official policy a couple of months later.
In order to satisfy the original research ban, the article could only make weak statements like "some people disagree about the UNIT dates". This requirement is useful only to pedants. Ken Arromdee 13:35, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
ChrisG: There are two problems with putting the references in only if there's controversy. The first is that that isn't what the policy says. Someone could conceivably say 'There's no controversy over this, but it's still original research unless you provide a reference'--and they would be perfectly justified in demanding changes. If original research is permitted as long as there is no controversy, the policy should say so. The second problem is that in popular culture, it's common for statements to be uncontroversial, yet for reasonably accessible references for them not to exist at all.
Unnamed: It is true that many statements could be reframed to eliminate the original research claim. Yes, you could say "there is discussion on this forum about X, so here's some facts" rather than "X is controversial, so here's some facts". But what good does it do to require such a thing, other than to provide an excuse for pedants? (And in this case, to require people to preserve a copy of the forum.) Ken Arromdee 05:50, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
This conversation has gone off on a variety of tangents. Suffice to say that I agree with what SlimVirgin just wrote, and agree with Chris that policie are usually applied most strictly when their are controversies. This does not mean, as I think the anonymous commenter suggested, that policies should be enforced only when there is controversy. It just means that controversy calls attention to a problem in an article that needs fixing. Since Wikipedia is a permanent work in process, this will never stop. Look, all articles should have proper punctuation, and many don't. And there are some noble people here who just go around correcting punctuation. Equally noble people could go around looking for places that need citations. But with a project as huge as ours, few people have the time to do that systematically. Controversies are just an index of how urgent is the need to make an article policy-compliant. As for the real issue of how to handle popular culture, I think the apple pie example covers this, along with SlimVirgin's point. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:28, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
"Well, perhaps this just means that it is difficult to write good quality articles about popular culture and requires a bit more effort to assemble references for the material."
You seem to be suggesting that it can never be so difficult that the policy becomes unreasonable. I disagree. If I wanted to say "the Doctor Who universe does not date UNIT consistently", I cannot provide a list of UNIT dates and say "these aren't consistent". That would be drawing a conclusion and violating the original research policy. Instead I would be required to dig up a reference which states that the dates aren't consistent. That reference is either very, very, obscure or doesn't exist, and in either case is completely useless. Demanding it serves no purpose other than to satisfy pedants.
Telling people that it requires a "bit more effort" ignores the question of whether requiring such effort is a good idea (and "bit" is a serious understatement). I am aware that the policy requires it; I'm questioning the policy. Ken Arromdee 16:29, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Some things need to be clarified. If I conclude, on my own, that I can solve y' = y + x by differentiating and substituting, you can't call it "original research." If I call it the Kokielov Trick (or the George Bush Trick), you can accuse me of assigning undeserved credit, but it still won't be original research. It becomes original research the moment I introduce a hypothesis not for the sake of experiment, but as a foundation. For instance, if I suddenly say that you can chart the trajectory of, oh, say, a comet by solving y' = y + x, then you tell me I'm hypothesizing and throw me out the window. But not a moment before. -- VKokielov 16:21, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
This can't be a slap-stick label. You need to explain that you're not forbidding every kind of conclusion, but only dubious or potentially dubious conclusions. Take the strictest view, but a correct mathematical derivation still won't be a dubious conclusion. -- VKokielov 16:51, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
This is important, because correct mathematical derivations, even if they don't lead anywhere, can be instructive. If anyone in the public at which you're aiming can decide whether a derivation is right or wrong, I think you should keep it. -- VKokielov 16:56, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
If nothing else, and pertaining to everything rather than only mathematical derivations, it will be foolish to censor anything which is relatively easy to prove and to see proven. -- VKokielov 16:59, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
We have a discussion ongoing with an editor who seems to have a drastically different interpretation of Original Research. For anyone who either helped draft this guideline or knows it well, you might want to comment :) -- kizzle 19:29, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
ie. the examples of Polymath's and Nerd's are obviously individuals interpretations (data, etc...) of these terms and the people who belong to them. Baring objective testing, no amount of group-agreement will fully make these non-original (baring a defining number of agreements -- where defining number is a proportion of the population "randomly" agreed to be the minimum amount necessary to form a definition -- ie. the circular arguments inherently necessary to define terms -- group-aware non-individual lexicons).
Tell me how to get published!!! (I have no credentials - the entirety of my formal schooling in psychology being Psych 101, collegiate education in general being sophomore/junior status as of 2000 - , though my understanding of certain topics borders on the post-graduate.) If you tell me how to get published, or show me someone/something which publishes and has the intellectual capacity to understand what I am talking about I probably still wouldn't do so, though it would be nice to know. A significant amount of my ability to understand the world is predicated on me not being able to effectively interact with or interject myself into the world. How the h*** do I get my ideas and research published in a peer-reviewed journal when I see so very few people as my intellectual peers you **** untermenschen who write these broken rules. How the h*** does one with no external credentials find the relevant journal to publish in????? I seriously want to know. Your encyclopedia, by referencing all and sundry (no matter how flawed/error ridden -- and many of them are), lacks rigor, lacks exactitude, and to a strong extent lacks scientific and intellectual suitability. But that's the point of an encyclopedia isn't it!?!?!?
Aahhhhh...... It sucks to every few months or years actually want to interact with other humans, but finding myself unable to do so. If i fail one more time, that will be the last time I attempt to communicate with those who lie on the other side of the cognitive divide. This was a minor rant brought on by profound frustration in both others, and in my inability to engage others. Disregard or not, though my first paragraph actually does stand on it's own as a critique (note: As a means toward clarification and disambiguation I would rather the examples be deleted or explicitly labeled as idiosyncratic and thus potentially wrong/misleading than have this rule modified to explicitly allow them -- especially for terms such as Nerd that have such diverse and mutually contradictory meanings (thus diverse and potentially contradictory examples) -- either that or segregated via what particular aspect of the article they're referring to).
Abandon all hope, all ye who enter here: unless you're sufficiently similar to those who create it that you can effectively use it, and be used by it. This is not a place where dialecticals are allowed to form, except possibly as examples defining the term "dialectic". -- 24.22.227.53 20:56, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
The Otherkin article is one of a few who are special in that its not particularly easy to come across information that isnt "original research" as termed in this policy, so i propose an exception, an article specific bending of the rules, because otherwise there wont really be an article, except sources that state that the otherkin believers are insane. Gabrielsimon 23:26, 26 July 2005 (UTC0
its not what id call an obscure topic, i just wish to obtain permission for the ability to use internet based research for that article. Gabrielsimon 00:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
data on the otherkin article, which a rather deletionist user caled friday is seemingly trying to have either gauged or deleted. Gabrielsimon 00:01, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
its difficlt to find "scholarly" refernces forthis subject, that dont deal with medical " problems" etc, i wish to find a way to allow the bulk of otherkin sites that otherkin put up to be used as reference material, because of the lack of other possible resources forhte time being. Gabrielsimon 00:05, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
without turning the article into a poorly written stub, i think its already as short as its gonna get. Gabrielsimon 09:12, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
The difficulty as I see it, is the conflict between somewhat strict "encyclopedic standards" and the ability to provide an article on an emerging or otherwise obscure topic. Maybe I'm actually more concerned with verifiability than OR, I'm not sure. They seem related to me. I've been thinking that if you collect information from various unverifiable sources and compile it together to get facts, that's original research. I could be wrong.
At any rate, Otherkin (where I've been heavily involved in the verifiability/original research question) seems to me like an interesting test case on this issue. On the one hand, we don't want Wikipedia to look silly. We also don't want misleading or POV information in an article. On the other hand, if Wikipedia had no "Otherkin" article at all, that doesn't really help much either. Nobody that I've seen is trying to suggest that Otherkin do not exist, so why shouldn't there be an article on it?
What if there was a way to tag the article, so readers would understand that the sources were the best available on the subject but weren't neccessarily considered reputable? We already have the OriginalReseach tag, but I'm not sure it's appropriate because to me this implies a problem that's going to be fixed. What if there's no fixing it? What if editors want the article to stay, but feel the sources are questionable? Maybe this is a silly idea, since articles should either be verifiable or not, I don't know. Maybe it even came up years ago and was shot down. I just wondered if anyone else thought this was a fair summary of the issue at hand, and/or is a new tag a useful idea. Friday 03:26, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
From the project page:
If you have an idea that you think should become part of the corpus of knowledge that is Wikipedia, the best approach is to arrange to have your results published in a peer-reviewed journal.
Getting a journal to peer-review your statement is pretty hard. Actually, Wikipedia itself is a place of peer-reviewing, therefore original research is acceptable at Wikipedia, as there are a million eyes reading what you wrote, isn't it? For example, the possible reason given for the video game crash of 1983 in that article is purely based on original research, yet it is a great of source of information and a good consideration on why the crash happened. -- Abdull 13:50, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Please use this page before adding any substantive content that might contradict the policy. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 21:01, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
Francis, could you say what your aim is with your changes, as they seem pretty extensive? SlimVirgin (talk) 22:35, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
Relying on citable sources also may encourage new contributors. For example, if someone knows of an important source that the article has not drawn on, he or she may feel more confident in adding important material to the article.
Overly long intros aren't good in articles, but this isn't in the main namespace. I like this long intro, because it means that people reading only the intro will still get the main points.
SR meant that new users might be encouraged to edit by adding a source, which is a good point.
A citable source is one that accords with the NOR policy and with Wikipedia:Cite sources. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:13, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
I would like to change the subtitle:
On talk pages and project pages
to:
Original research on talk pages and project pages
and the first paragraph from that section from:
Like most Wikipedia policies, No original research applies to articles, not to talk pages or project pages.
to:
Like most Wikipedia policies, No original research applies to articles, not to talk pages or project pages. Note however that referring from an article page to such pages as a "source" would conflict as well with the "Avoid self-references" guideline.
further the expression:
Wikipedia namespace
to:
and the paragraph:
Meta-Wiki allows original research, see for instance m:research, m:Wikiresearch, m:Wikimedia Research Network, m:wikiversity, m:category:research, and m:statistics.
to:
Meta-Wiki allows original research, see for instance m:research, m:Wikiresearch, m:Wikimedia Research Network, m:wikiversity, m:category:research, and m:statistics. Whether Meta-Wiki is a "reputable" enough source to be cited in Wikipedia has yet to be established (...to be continued).
Anyone having a problem with any of these proposed changes? -- Francis Schonken 23:43, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Till a few days ago the paragraph pointing at the importance of this policy read:
This policy is important because Wikipedia must impose certain restrictions to its content if it is to become known as a well-respected and reliable source of information. Another way to consider it: what do you expect from your grocery store? Almost everything it sells to you, it buys from someone else. Now ask yourself: would you buy from your grocery store if you so much as suspected that you couldn't trust what you were buying? So, too, here at Wikipedia. It's an obligation of Wikipedia to its readers that the information they read here be reliable and reputable.
I suppose it's safe to state that Slrubenstein, SlimVirgin and Francis Schonken agree that the "grocery store analogy" was not the best available solution to tackle this topic.
Note also that the "grocery store" paragraph already has been discussed a few times on this page. -- Francis Schonken 07:21, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Presently this part of the policy text reads:
This policy is a counterpart to several core policies, and is thus important for several reasons:
- It's an obligation of Wikipedia to its readers that the information they read here be reliable and reputable. Published sources are generally reliable and reputable.
- Of course, not all published sources are reliable and reputable. But by relying on citable sources, we help readers of Wikipedia evaluate the quality of our research. See Wikipedia:No_original_research#What_counts_as_a_reputable_publication? for a discussion on how to judge whether a source is reliable.
- Relying on citable sources also may encourage new contributors. For example, if someone knows of an important source that the article has not drawn on, he or she may feel more confident in adding important material to the article.
- Citable sources provide readers with resources they may consult to pursue their own research. After all, some people turn to encyclopedias as a first step in research, not as a last step.
- Relying on citable sources helps clarify what points of view are represented in an article, and thus helps us comply with our NPOV policy.
The text is by Slrubenstein, with minor adjustments by SlimVirgin. Francis already produced some comments on this text above, here is a more comprehensive list of comments:
I proposed following short version of the argumentation of why this policy is important:
This policy is important because Wikipedia wants to be a reliable source of information, simply said: reliability above novelty.
Other comments than "reverts" where not yet provided re. the content of this version of the argumentation. -- Francis Schonken 07:21, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
If we know a planet's (or more specifically a Kuiper belt object's) mass and diameter, does it count as original research if I calculate its density, surface gravity and escape velocity? The formulae for that are quite well-known, trivial to derive, and definitely verifiable. However, I haven't yet found a source where such per-calculated data is given for, for example, 2003 EL61. The reason for that is, in my opinion, that the scientific community does not need such plain figures, and if they do, they can always calculate them as I've done. The only places where such data is useful are encyclopedias and, for example, popular science magazines, but the subject is too new for them (except Wikipedia) to include them yet. Personally I think that it counts as plain synthesis of known sources and not an original research as no research paper would consist of just applying three well-known formulae to well-known data in a totally non-original and routine way. What do you think? — Pt (T) 11:02, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
FYI: another thing I've calculated from given data is the mean orbital speed for 2005 FY9. The formula for that is perhaps not so easy to derive, but anyway it isn't anything very special and I'm quite sure it has been published somewhere. Also I've checked my formulae with the planets where more data are known. Anyhow, may I do that or not? — Pt (T) 11:12, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
It surprises me, how often questions like this come up (although I take it as a positive sign that people take this policy seriously). I thought the 'apple pie" example would suffice to make clear what is allowable. However, I added to that paragraph this: "(1) makes descriptive claims that are easily verifiable by any reasonable adult" based on ChrisG's very clear and simple explanation above. I do think it is evident that we need to work a bit more on the policy to make it less likely that people will raise these kinds of questions on the talk:page. I am not sure if this means adding even more to the apple pie/current events paragraph in the intro (I am inclined not to), or to add another section in the main body of the article, perhaps including a checklist, that will help people assuage their doubts about whether they are or are not complying with the policy. I consider this one of the most important policies we have, but if many people interpret it in a way that discourages them from contributing to articles — especially in the way Pt raises (which to me sounds more like elaborating on or clarifying or developing a point that has already been established), then we are not done with our work of crafting this policy into something really useful. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:33, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Thank you all very much for the feedback! I think that the policy should really be a bit clearer about that. — Pt (T) 18:22, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
We cannot make an assertion in an article if "it introduces an original argument purporting to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position described in the article;"
What if someone makes claims that have no valid semantic interpretation, and they have not provided a full explanation? I'm trying to come up with examples, but it's difficult because I tend to think too logically. The one I've come across is "the documentary was a conspiracy theory". That is nonsense as "conspiracy theory" is not an applicable category to "documentary". Can one not say so in an article where this assertion is quoted? (I guess the similar sentence "the documentary described a conspiracy theory" is the one intended, but what if the other's a construct that's used consistently? Common sloppy use of language should be highlighted in articles. This is perfectly normal in an encylopedia.)
What of other basic (valid) logical derivations? e.g. X was in Texas, Y was in Kansas, so X could not perform some action with Y. Is logical derivation restricted to the talk pages unless one can show that someone else has made the derivation? Is it prohibited even there? This seems like a very bad policy, and not what was originally intended when the concept of original research was introduced.
A further problem is with assertions that cannot be immediately sourced. Placeholders should be allowed for a duration based on good faith (a more fundamental wiki principle that NOR) and the nature of the previous edits of the contributor. Assertions that are not present cannot be sourced.
I hereby object to this part of the policy as it stands. Please sign below if you agree. Suggestions for alternatives welcome.
Otherwise, please explain why you think it's necessary.
Mr. Jones 21:49, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I do not think you understand the policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:22, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
This policy states that there are some things that you cannot do on wikipedia. If the policy page does not mention something, thenn obviously, this policy has nothing to say about that. If you really are doing original research, then do not do it. If you think you are not doing original research, then you do not think you are violating this policy. You make it sound like youthink you are violating this policy and you think you are not. Make up your mind. If you are not doing original research, why are youmaking such a big deal about this? What is the point? Go work on an article. Research a topic, and contribute something. Slrubenstein | Talk 03:04, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Why were several other policy pages re-hashed here? Linking is sufficient. Effectively creating forks of existing policies here isn't a very good idea. It's also an example of instruction creep.
It is important not to distract from what this page is about: No original research. All this page should do is explain that policy, and no more. The Related policies section seems more a general primer for Wikipedia policies.
A user coming to this page may well have looked at the huge size of it and walked away. With a smaller, tighter page hopefully more people will read it, and take it on board.
I must also say, I prefer the original version best :-). Dan100 ( Talk) 13:16, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
SlimVirgin is right, Dan — in general, no one should make changes, let alone major changes, to content before discussing it first. As for the specific material you removed, well, I personally don't think you have a strong case. Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia so there is no need to be skimply; the policies are, as SV points our, very much linked. I don't think reviewing or summarizing other policies is "instruction creep." Nor di I see how it makes it harder to follow, ipso facto. Indeed, I think there is a real virtue to showing how, exactly, this policy fits in with others. I thinkk we have to do this here. Of course, if you think it is poorly written i.e. not clear that is a matter of style and we should discuss how to make it clearer. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:04, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
With all due respect to SlimVirgin, I have done some more rearranging and editing. I added back the material on "linked oilicies" that had been deleted, but I also pared these sections down to the bare minimum and did some rewriting to show how, exactly, they link to this policy. I also tried to make the organization a little more logical (well, my kind of logic, at least), Slrubenstein | Talk 19:22, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Now you know I'd never want to make you cry! In part, my editing was defensive (against anyone who would continue to complain about instruction-creep). Q: would the Hawking example be better placed in the Verifiability policy page? Slrubenstein | Talk 19:39, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
I have real concerns over this page. While I do not want to see research papers placed into the Wikipedia data because they can not make the grade to get into a peer review journal, I think that this page is very badly worded and lends its self as being used as a bludgeon in arguments over the contents of Wikipedia articles.
For example instead of using outside definitions of what original research is, this article states: "Original research refers to untested theories; data, statements, concepts and ideas that have not been published in a reputable publication; or any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts or ideas that, in the words of Wikipedia's founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation". as it is a statement which has not been published in a reputable publication it can be argued that it is Original research because "original research refers to...statements...that have not been published in a reputable publication". Now I know that one can argue that it is covered by the statment lower down the page under "'A few pages have been created devoted to research into issues related to Wikipedia" but that is tenuous to say the least.
It seem to me from the above NOR statment that any statement which is not a quote with a reference, can be construed as original research. For example if one makes the statement in an article "The Thames flows through London" without citing a source then it can be argued that it is original research, because the NOR sentence "n some cases, where an article makes descriptive claims that are easily verifiable by any reasonable adult...Wikipedia article may be based entirely on primary sources" still means that a primary source ought to be cited. But if every statement in every sentence has to be sourced then Wikipedia will become stilted to the point of being unreadable.
See the section above on #Data Mining. In that User:SlimVirgin states ""original research" doesn't refer to any research method", yet as I pointed out to her "research" has a specific meaning in academic circles. I think the term "Original Research" should be based on external to Wikipedia definitions, like one from the OED (if it exists) or those used by respectable peer review journals like Nature or European Constitutional Law Review (EuConst) to take two which are in different fields and would cover diffrent types of Wikipedia articles.
This of course lends its self to a potential paradox. If one tries to publish an article in Nature which is rejected because it is not "original research" could it be published here?
Never the less the defintion for "original research" should be based on external definitions it should not be based on one make up by a few wikipedia editors who happen on this wikipedia page. Philip Baird Shearer 13:28, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Also, I think that the apple pie and current events examples respond to most of the concerns expressed here. The Thames example is an inappropriate one, given the text of this policy. SR
"In summary, if the facts, opinions, or arguments you want to include in an article have not been published by a credible or reputable publication, you're engaged in original research." What about lists? As I pointed out above #Bludgeon any list which is not already in the public domain and appears in Wikipedia as a copy of list generated in a EU memeber country is either already protected under EU directives and so is a breach of copyright or the database directive [5] [6] [7], or if written by a EU resident is original research by the definitions given in this article and those of European directives. Philip Baird Shearer 13:28, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
"Secondary sources present a generalization, analysis, synthesis, interpretation, or evaluation of information or data." By definition if any Wikipedia page fulfils the earlier criteria of no NOR, then surly are they not a secondary source because they "present a generalization... of information or data." ?
The phrase "people who do not rely on Wikipedia" can cause a problem. There needs to be something added to this article about following wikipedia links to sources. For example the article Levellers used to contain this reference to the Putney Debates [8] as does The Agreement of the People [9]. However when the article Putney Debates was written user: DanKeshet removed the first referece (I think correctly) stating in the history of the Levellers article that the "external link already present in our article on putney debates, no need to cite it here, esp. not in a footnote". Yet the wording on the NOR makes no allowance for this very sensible edit. However one has to guard against expecting a person to wade through lots of links to get to an external source which may not exist if the Wikipedia pages go in a cirlcle: e.g. States of Germany-> State-> State (non-sovereign)-> States of Germany! (In this case province would be a better article to link to, but that is a seperate issue.) Philip Baird Shearer 13:28, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
I've done some redrafting, which includes removing two paragraphs which relate wholly to the NPOV policy and add nothing to the the NOR discussion. I like the new specific applications sections and suspect the policy could be best improved with the addition of additional specific applications that keep coming up on the talk pages. For example:
We can probably identify more by going through the talk page discussions in detail. T: ChrisG 16:22, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm a little confused about the section that deals with primary and secondary sources. I removed secondary sources from: "Original research is research that creates primary sources or secondary sources." If we quote or discuss a court transcript, for example (a primary source), then we become a secondary source, but that's not an example of original research. If anyone objects to this being removed, feel free to restore. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:01, August 30, 2005 (UTC)
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Hi Vkokielov, I've partially reverted the changes you made. I've left your addition to the intro, which I didn't mind, though others may disagree, as follows:
In order to become known as a reliable source of information, Wikipedia has to impose this restriction on its content. Another way to consider it: what do you expect from your grocery store? Your grocery store doesn't make anything: everything it sells to you, it buys from someone else. Now ask yourself: would you buy from your grocery store if you so much as suspected that what you were buying came from no one knows where? So, too, here at Wikipedia. It's an obligation of Wikipedia to its readers that the information they read here be reliable and reputable.
I've restored your deletion of the "if you have a great idea that should become part of" section, because I think it explains the position quite clearly, but I've deleted "great" because, as you and El C pointed out, it might be seen as patronizing or sarcastic. I also restored your deletion of the sentence saying we'd have to turn away Pulitzer-prize-level journalism or Nobel-level science if its authors tried to publish it here first, as that gets the point across well.
I deleted your grocery story/FDA analogy, which you had replaced the above with, as I felt it labored the point and that the analogy broke down in places, as follows:
If you ran a grocery store, how would you decide from whom to buy your food? Which questions would you ask Mr. Doe if he came to you and said he will sell you the same food you sell now for less than anyone from whom you would buy? If you have an original idea, Wikipedia cannot - and will not - publish it, unless it is good to eat. The only way to make sure it is good to eat is to send it through the FDA of original ideas - the professional publications. Now, of course not every food the FDA forbids will kill you; and so not every original idea which you can't publish is not worth publication. But it would be unfair to sell you beef from England just because mad cow disease doesn't happen very often. In other words, the fact that we exclude something does not necessarily mean that material is bad – Wikipedia is simply not the proper venue for it. We would have to turn away even Pulitzer-level journalism and Nobel-level science if its authors tried to publish it first on Wikipedia.
Others may disagree with me, so of course feel free to restore if that's the consensus. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:05, Apr 17, 2005 (UTC)
A chance to engage in original research, perhaps? Sorry, could'nt resist. :p El_C 06:34, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I notice the analogy has something of a loophole, which carries through to the wiki case. Imagine wartime. Goods are scarce and people are desperate to get them. In those circumstances, people will take a chance however dodgy the grocery vendor is. Well maybe the meat was classed as fit only for petfood, but its better than starving, and hey the dog's still alive. This holds true here too. What do you do about a topic on which no guaranteed information exists? People still want to know. Best may not be perfect, but is better than nothing. Sandpiper 19:38, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
Just one of many reasons why I think a clear and straightforward explanation of the policy and why it is important is better than any analogy.
Slrubenstein |
Talk
19:42, 25 August 2005 (UTC)
How about an article that helps people find quality research for their article, especially in controversial areas? Like that Google Scholar is an amazing tool to find free online scientific papers? Or that blogs about particular subjects often summarize and explain that latest findings and studies in a particular field? Or that prior research is often summarized selectively by opponents in controversial areas (like gun control), so it is a good idea to read what the major opposing organizations present as evidence. Ultramarine 20:16, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Being bold, I just added a paragraph to the "what counts as a reputable publication?" discussing Usenet as a source. Lay on, Macduff, and damn'd be him that first cries, "Hold, enough!" ➥the Epopt 18:05, 8 May 2005 (UTC)
I know nothing about Usenet, but I find it highly unlikely that anyone will run across a topic that has no sources outside of Usenet posts. To me, this makes the need for a specific policy on the use of Usenet citations less critical. Furthermore, I agree with Slrubenstein's comments above (if I understood them correctly): that maybe it's best for us to try to stay away from websites too much. →Iñgōlemo← talk 21:39, 2005 May 8 (UTC)
SlimVirgin quoted me above and accurately represented a general view I have about Wikipedia and the Web. As to this discussion, there is one point I want to add to this conversation: policies cannot cover all possibilities and indeed are meant to be written in such a general way that they can be applied to differenc cases as they come up. Epopt I believe initiated this discussion with a brief comment about usenet. If he is correct (and I will grant that for present purposes) there is simply no need to mention usenet in this policy. Perhaps there is a need for a general discussion of usenet (I know there was a long one on the mailing list) but honestly I just do not believe it belongs here. A general discussion of the strenghts, weaknesses, and uses of usenet belong on the talk page of the usenet article. As to the question of whether it constitutes original research or is a reputable source, I think that has to be debated on a case-by-case basis. Let's wait until someone wants to use usenet as a source on "race" or "Jesus" or "Creationism" or "Fascism" (and so on). Then, the people working on those articles can discuss whether the incorporation of something from usenet violates our NOR policy, or qualifies as a reputabble and verifiable source for that topic. I think our policies are clear enough, right now, that if two people got into an argument over using something from usenet on, say, the Jesus article, the policies as written will be able to guide them in evaluating the appropriateness of that use. In short, this discussion belongs on the talk page of the Usenet article, and more focussed discussions of usenet belong on the talk pages of articles where editors are actually relying on usenet as sources. I don't see the value of talking about it here. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:02, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
Thodin, I reverted your edit because I felt it labored the grocer-store analogy a little by going into detail about bakery and deli items, and price. If you feel the analogy as it stands isn't helpful, could you make a suggestion for change here? Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 23:38, May 16, 2005 (UTC)
SlimVirgin,
It really needs a better analogy, but the best I could come up with was to exclude certain parts of a grocery store. Maybe a bunch of encyclopedias in book or CD form might work better. I was hoping someone would edit to improve it and not just merely erase my changes, but you did start a chat.
Another idea is a bakery. That you have to trust what is produced in a bakery -- that the food is safe to eat and what bread is supposed to be. Or if you think the news on TV is lying, you don't trust it. Personally, I'd say comparing it with an encyclopedia you buy or a respected news source (although a lot of news sources aren't so respected and seem biased). So maybe something like if you buy a bunch of encyclopedias from a salesman you except them to be accurate and not just some made up information, badly researched information, or propoganda.
-Thodin (Forgot to sign my name)
I was frankly surprised that the page was even editable by people who didn't have special privladges, but in the history I see everyone tinkering with it. Thing is when I read the grocery store analogy, I immediately thought of all its contradictions. I'd still say just working it by comparing it with a reputable journal or encyclopedia would do better. -Thodin
Thanks. How do I instant message other users through this system? Also, another analogy idea is buying a car -- I think that would fit the grocery idea with possibly some word changes as people are more picky about a car they trust and that places that sell cars don't make them. Or maybe extending the analogy to a chosing a hospital? Thodin 00:33, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
I added a section discussing the fact that this policy does not apply to talk pages. While perhaps this should be obvious, I've found that occasionally people cite this rule to support removal of a new user's ideas regarding a subject, which is not only discouraging them from editing but from continuing to think about new ideas. I don't think it says anything that isn't already true, just a reminder. Deco 02:14, 28 May 2005 (UTC)
An important policy discussion has started concerning ways in which our content-related polices, such as NPOV, No original research and Verifiability could be better enforced. I've made a proposal to give the Arbitration Committee the ability to consult Wikipedia users who are knowledgeable in subject-areas that apply to cases before them. Such consultation is needed due to the fact that the ArbCom does not by itself have the requisite knowledge to easily tell what is NPOV, original research, or a fringe idea in every field. Please read my proposal at Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/RFC#Alternate solution #9 by mav. Content subcommittee and comment. Thank you! -- mav 02:47, 7 Jun 2005 (UTC)
It seems to me that this policy is used as a bludgeon by some people to force their POV on to other people. If primary research was as easy as some people implied then we would all have the title Dr. To be original research it has to be more than one sentence or a list of things!
Let me give you an examples:
The first sentence may or may not be true. The first thing that someone who disagrees with it will say is "This is a POV without references". When the author of the sentence provides references, then the objector is able to say that "this is original research because no one else has linked those sources together before, provide me with a reference which has done that or remove this original research".
In the second case it is possible to prove from primary sources on the web that General Sir Alan Flemming Hartley was C-In-C of the Indian army for two month, from January - March 1942. But the only source Web source for a list of C-in-Cs for India gets this wrong. So should one leave the known mistake in the list of C-in-Cs even when a primary source document on the web clearly shows that the secondary source is wrong? Because synthesising a new list which fixes this problem could be construed as primary research. If it is original research and so should be be in Wikipedia, should Wikipedia publish information which it can be proven is false?
In Europe any "collections of information" [1], which a list is, can be copyrighted so in theory any list on Wikipedia which is not a copy from somewhere else could be construed as original research because under the EC Databases Directive [2] which defines a protected collection as "a collection of independent works, data or other materials arranged in a systematic or methodical way and individually accessible by electronic or other means". So does this mean that all lists on Wikipedia which are not copied from somewhere else (which would often place them in breach of copyright) are original research and should be removed from Wikipedia?
See also the 1995 ruling in the "Magill case" [3] Philip Baird Shearer 11:40, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
If one uses data mining technique where one trawls data to see if any links appear and them fit a theory to explain the links, is not considered to be legitimate scientific research. To be scientific research, one is meant to come up with a hypothesis and then look to see if the data to prove or disprove the theory. (Reminds me of a policeman in South Africa who explained to me "By law you have to fire a warning shot. So the first shot hits the man with the gun and the second shot is fired at the ceiling".) Does data mining count as original research on Wikipedia and if so why? Philip Baird Shearer 11:57, 10 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Why a concrete example let us use a hypothetical example. Suppose that you are looking for all the references for Gorgon so that you can correct a date on the Gorgon page. Using Google you notice that the pages returned show that there is a correlation between the word Gorgon and the geographical spread of the articles returned by the search, so you add a paragraph to the Gorgon page pointing this out. This new fact has not been discovered using "original research" methods, it been acquired via data mining. Philip Baird Shearer 14:01, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Are you saying "original research" does not mean original research? As you will know, "research" has a specific meaning in academic circles (scientific methodology etc). Philip Baird Shearer 13:54, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I'm not sure the page makes it clear enough that citing sources, although necessary, is not a sufficient guard against original research. Any academic dissertation is a piece of original research that's absolutely crawling with cited sources. -- Angr/ tɔk tə mi 00:53, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Well precisely. The "so long as" clause is absolutely necessary. But all too often I see a page up at VfD on the charge of being original research, only to have people vote to keep, arguing that it isn't original research because it cites its sources, and failing to remember your "so long as" clause. I just want to make it clearer that the presence of cited sources alone is no guarantee that a page isn't original research. --
Angr/
tɔk tə mi 23:09, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Name one credible academic journal which would consider publishing as original research a sentence which says: "Major Denis Healey could not be tried at the Nuremberg war crime trials, because he was an Allied service man". If an undergraduate tried to present such as original research project to their professor, she would die laughing. Just because it is a combination of two know facts does not make it is not original research. I am in favour of a ban on original research but it has to be substantive original research. I may not be able to find any article which says "Major Denis Healey could not.." but I can find two references which say that he was a British soldier during world war II and that allies were not tried for war crimes at the Nuremberg war crime trials. To ban the use of such a sentence because it is original research would mean that huge chunks of this encyclopaedia would have to be re-written into a set of quotations. It text would be even more stilted than it already is (A Camel is a horse designed by a committee) and would then probably run into copyright infringements. Philip Baird Shearer 22:48, 13 Jun 2005 (UTC)
I do not think that I am missing any point. I do not think that the "original research" ban
should be applied to things like "Major Denis Healey could not be tried at the Nuremberg war crime trials, because he was an Allied service man" even though it is a synthesis of two facts which although they can be found, can not be found in the same document. Given that do you think that:
-- Philip Baird Shearer 17:31, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
Whoops my mistake so lets rephrase it slightly:
-- Philip Baird Shearer 20:30, 20 Jun 2005 (UTC)
One can be any nationality and a British soldier. If he had fought for the Germans then he would have been a German soldier. Philip Baird Shearer 13:39, 25 Jun 2005 (UTC)
May an editor cite his own original research, as published in a peer-reviewed journal? -- Trovatore 28 June 2005 16:56 (UTC)
Most certainly. See '1 What is excluded' on the main page, where the steps for doing this are explained. To attempt to ban expert editors who publish in peer-reviewed journals or who write books is self-defeating and impossible to police. Its self defeating since it would exclude a needed body of expertise from Wikpedia, and impossible to police since few editors log in under their own names, so we would never be able to identify those who write about their own research. Apwoolrich 28 June 2005 18:03 (UTC)
would uploading a copy of a public record tax form obtained from the us irs be an allowable source? I am not able to find a copy of the actual form itself, only references to it, and a tv show about it.... It would not be research, per se, but a reference to a particular expense on the sheet, no analysis needed or give... the claim is that a group gave money to a particular person, and since they did, it shows up on their tax form, along with the exact amount... IreverentReverend 2 July 2005 08:51 (UTC)
I think the original research idea utterly fails in connection with popular culture. Consider, for instance, UNIT_dating_controversy. At some point, someone (or several someones) must have sat down and done their own research to find all the UNIT dates in the Dr. Who series. Each individual item in the lists might have a cite, but the combination is a piece of original research used to support the proposition that dating in the series is inconsistent.
The problem is that "original research" is different for popular culture. The "research data" may be available to anyone with a book collection or DVD player, and generally no expertise is needed to verify or refute claims. There are no peer-reviewed journals, and often few relevant published sources of any type.
Ken Arromdee 8 July 2005 20:08 (UTC)
Maybe this article wasn't the best of examples, but I consider statements like "the exact years in which UNIT operates are never made precisely clear" as conclusions. You won't find a published source which says "the UNIT dates aren't clear", except maybe in some obscure fanzine that isn't quoted in the article anyway. The nature of popular culture topics is that information about them beyond names, dates, plot summaries, etc. may not necessarily found in published sources at all.
Consider the following sentence from the Dalek article: "In The Dalek Invasion of Earth (1964) a Dalek emerges from the waters of the River Thames, indicating that they are amphibious to a degree." Should the phrase "indicating that they are amphibious to a degree" be removed, on the grounds that it's a conclusion and someone could conceivably argue that the Dalek isn't amphibious at all? Ken Arromdee 23:25, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
The assertion that there is an ongoing debate in Dr. Who fandom is another example of the same problem. You're not going to find a source that describes the ongoing debates in Dr. Who fandom, in the same way that you might find a source that says "string theory is controversial among physicists." (And "there's a lot of discussion about this topic in newgroups; therefore this topic is controversial" is itself original research which draws a conclusion.) Likewise, you won't find an additional source which says "UNIT dating is inconsistent". Popular culture just doesn't *have* sources in the way that physics or history does; requiring sources for this type of material is unreasonable. The original research ban is ill-suited to popular culture. Ken Arromdee 01:30, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
But as I noted, pointing to newsgroups or forums doesn't work. Saying "There is discussion about this in forums; therefore this is controversial" is a conclusion. After all, not everything discussed in forums is a controversial topic; claiming that something is controversial involves making a judgment call on whether the level of discussion is enough to truly call the topic controversial.
Moreover, forums aren't permanent, and it would again be an unreasonable burden to expect people to save copies of forums just so that their statement "UNIT dating is controversial" won't violate official policy a couple of months later.
In order to satisfy the original research ban, the article could only make weak statements like "some people disagree about the UNIT dates". This requirement is useful only to pedants. Ken Arromdee 13:35, 11 July 2005 (UTC)
ChrisG: There are two problems with putting the references in only if there's controversy. The first is that that isn't what the policy says. Someone could conceivably say 'There's no controversy over this, but it's still original research unless you provide a reference'--and they would be perfectly justified in demanding changes. If original research is permitted as long as there is no controversy, the policy should say so. The second problem is that in popular culture, it's common for statements to be uncontroversial, yet for reasonably accessible references for them not to exist at all.
Unnamed: It is true that many statements could be reframed to eliminate the original research claim. Yes, you could say "there is discussion on this forum about X, so here's some facts" rather than "X is controversial, so here's some facts". But what good does it do to require such a thing, other than to provide an excuse for pedants? (And in this case, to require people to preserve a copy of the forum.) Ken Arromdee 05:50, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
This conversation has gone off on a variety of tangents. Suffice to say that I agree with what SlimVirgin just wrote, and agree with Chris that policie are usually applied most strictly when their are controversies. This does not mean, as I think the anonymous commenter suggested, that policies should be enforced only when there is controversy. It just means that controversy calls attention to a problem in an article that needs fixing. Since Wikipedia is a permanent work in process, this will never stop. Look, all articles should have proper punctuation, and many don't. And there are some noble people here who just go around correcting punctuation. Equally noble people could go around looking for places that need citations. But with a project as huge as ours, few people have the time to do that systematically. Controversies are just an index of how urgent is the need to make an article policy-compliant. As for the real issue of how to handle popular culture, I think the apple pie example covers this, along with SlimVirgin's point. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:28, 12 July 2005 (UTC)
"Well, perhaps this just means that it is difficult to write good quality articles about popular culture and requires a bit more effort to assemble references for the material."
You seem to be suggesting that it can never be so difficult that the policy becomes unreasonable. I disagree. If I wanted to say "the Doctor Who universe does not date UNIT consistently", I cannot provide a list of UNIT dates and say "these aren't consistent". That would be drawing a conclusion and violating the original research policy. Instead I would be required to dig up a reference which states that the dates aren't consistent. That reference is either very, very, obscure or doesn't exist, and in either case is completely useless. Demanding it serves no purpose other than to satisfy pedants.
Telling people that it requires a "bit more effort" ignores the question of whether requiring such effort is a good idea (and "bit" is a serious understatement). I am aware that the policy requires it; I'm questioning the policy. Ken Arromdee 16:29, 14 July 2005 (UTC)
Some things need to be clarified. If I conclude, on my own, that I can solve y' = y + x by differentiating and substituting, you can't call it "original research." If I call it the Kokielov Trick (or the George Bush Trick), you can accuse me of assigning undeserved credit, but it still won't be original research. It becomes original research the moment I introduce a hypothesis not for the sake of experiment, but as a foundation. For instance, if I suddenly say that you can chart the trajectory of, oh, say, a comet by solving y' = y + x, then you tell me I'm hypothesizing and throw me out the window. But not a moment before. -- VKokielov 16:21, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
This can't be a slap-stick label. You need to explain that you're not forbidding every kind of conclusion, but only dubious or potentially dubious conclusions. Take the strictest view, but a correct mathematical derivation still won't be a dubious conclusion. -- VKokielov 16:51, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
This is important, because correct mathematical derivations, even if they don't lead anywhere, can be instructive. If anyone in the public at which you're aiming can decide whether a derivation is right or wrong, I think you should keep it. -- VKokielov 16:56, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
If nothing else, and pertaining to everything rather than only mathematical derivations, it will be foolish to censor anything which is relatively easy to prove and to see proven. -- VKokielov 16:59, 10 July 2005 (UTC)
We have a discussion ongoing with an editor who seems to have a drastically different interpretation of Original Research. For anyone who either helped draft this guideline or knows it well, you might want to comment :) -- kizzle 19:29, July 14, 2005 (UTC)
ie. the examples of Polymath's and Nerd's are obviously individuals interpretations (data, etc...) of these terms and the people who belong to them. Baring objective testing, no amount of group-agreement will fully make these non-original (baring a defining number of agreements -- where defining number is a proportion of the population "randomly" agreed to be the minimum amount necessary to form a definition -- ie. the circular arguments inherently necessary to define terms -- group-aware non-individual lexicons).
Tell me how to get published!!! (I have no credentials - the entirety of my formal schooling in psychology being Psych 101, collegiate education in general being sophomore/junior status as of 2000 - , though my understanding of certain topics borders on the post-graduate.) If you tell me how to get published, or show me someone/something which publishes and has the intellectual capacity to understand what I am talking about I probably still wouldn't do so, though it would be nice to know. A significant amount of my ability to understand the world is predicated on me not being able to effectively interact with or interject myself into the world. How the h*** do I get my ideas and research published in a peer-reviewed journal when I see so very few people as my intellectual peers you **** untermenschen who write these broken rules. How the h*** does one with no external credentials find the relevant journal to publish in????? I seriously want to know. Your encyclopedia, by referencing all and sundry (no matter how flawed/error ridden -- and many of them are), lacks rigor, lacks exactitude, and to a strong extent lacks scientific and intellectual suitability. But that's the point of an encyclopedia isn't it!?!?!?
Aahhhhh...... It sucks to every few months or years actually want to interact with other humans, but finding myself unable to do so. If i fail one more time, that will be the last time I attempt to communicate with those who lie on the other side of the cognitive divide. This was a minor rant brought on by profound frustration in both others, and in my inability to engage others. Disregard or not, though my first paragraph actually does stand on it's own as a critique (note: As a means toward clarification and disambiguation I would rather the examples be deleted or explicitly labeled as idiosyncratic and thus potentially wrong/misleading than have this rule modified to explicitly allow them -- especially for terms such as Nerd that have such diverse and mutually contradictory meanings (thus diverse and potentially contradictory examples) -- either that or segregated via what particular aspect of the article they're referring to).
Abandon all hope, all ye who enter here: unless you're sufficiently similar to those who create it that you can effectively use it, and be used by it. This is not a place where dialecticals are allowed to form, except possibly as examples defining the term "dialectic". -- 24.22.227.53 20:56, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
The Otherkin article is one of a few who are special in that its not particularly easy to come across information that isnt "original research" as termed in this policy, so i propose an exception, an article specific bending of the rules, because otherwise there wont really be an article, except sources that state that the otherkin believers are insane. Gabrielsimon 23:26, 26 July 2005 (UTC0
its not what id call an obscure topic, i just wish to obtain permission for the ability to use internet based research for that article. Gabrielsimon 00:05, 27 July 2005 (UTC)
data on the otherkin article, which a rather deletionist user caled friday is seemingly trying to have either gauged or deleted. Gabrielsimon 00:01, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
its difficlt to find "scholarly" refernces forthis subject, that dont deal with medical " problems" etc, i wish to find a way to allow the bulk of otherkin sites that otherkin put up to be used as reference material, because of the lack of other possible resources forhte time being. Gabrielsimon 00:05, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
without turning the article into a poorly written stub, i think its already as short as its gonna get. Gabrielsimon 09:12, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
The difficulty as I see it, is the conflict between somewhat strict "encyclopedic standards" and the ability to provide an article on an emerging or otherwise obscure topic. Maybe I'm actually more concerned with verifiability than OR, I'm not sure. They seem related to me. I've been thinking that if you collect information from various unverifiable sources and compile it together to get facts, that's original research. I could be wrong.
At any rate, Otherkin (where I've been heavily involved in the verifiability/original research question) seems to me like an interesting test case on this issue. On the one hand, we don't want Wikipedia to look silly. We also don't want misleading or POV information in an article. On the other hand, if Wikipedia had no "Otherkin" article at all, that doesn't really help much either. Nobody that I've seen is trying to suggest that Otherkin do not exist, so why shouldn't there be an article on it?
What if there was a way to tag the article, so readers would understand that the sources were the best available on the subject but weren't neccessarily considered reputable? We already have the OriginalReseach tag, but I'm not sure it's appropriate because to me this implies a problem that's going to be fixed. What if there's no fixing it? What if editors want the article to stay, but feel the sources are questionable? Maybe this is a silly idea, since articles should either be verifiable or not, I don't know. Maybe it even came up years ago and was shot down. I just wondered if anyone else thought this was a fair summary of the issue at hand, and/or is a new tag a useful idea. Friday 03:26, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
From the project page:
If you have an idea that you think should become part of the corpus of knowledge that is Wikipedia, the best approach is to arrange to have your results published in a peer-reviewed journal.
Getting a journal to peer-review your statement is pretty hard. Actually, Wikipedia itself is a place of peer-reviewing, therefore original research is acceptable at Wikipedia, as there are a million eyes reading what you wrote, isn't it? For example, the possible reason given for the video game crash of 1983 in that article is purely based on original research, yet it is a great of source of information and a good consideration on why the crash happened. -- Abdull 13:50, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Please use this page before adding any substantive content that might contradict the policy. Many thanks, SlimVirgin (talk) 21:01, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
Francis, could you say what your aim is with your changes, as they seem pretty extensive? SlimVirgin (talk) 22:35, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
Relying on citable sources also may encourage new contributors. For example, if someone knows of an important source that the article has not drawn on, he or she may feel more confident in adding important material to the article.
Overly long intros aren't good in articles, but this isn't in the main namespace. I like this long intro, because it means that people reading only the intro will still get the main points.
SR meant that new users might be encouraged to edit by adding a source, which is a good point.
A citable source is one that accords with the NOR policy and with Wikipedia:Cite sources. SlimVirgin (talk) 23:13, July 31, 2005 (UTC)
I would like to change the subtitle:
On talk pages and project pages
to:
Original research on talk pages and project pages
and the first paragraph from that section from:
Like most Wikipedia policies, No original research applies to articles, not to talk pages or project pages.
to:
Like most Wikipedia policies, No original research applies to articles, not to talk pages or project pages. Note however that referring from an article page to such pages as a "source" would conflict as well with the "Avoid self-references" guideline.
further the expression:
Wikipedia namespace
to:
and the paragraph:
Meta-Wiki allows original research, see for instance m:research, m:Wikiresearch, m:Wikimedia Research Network, m:wikiversity, m:category:research, and m:statistics.
to:
Meta-Wiki allows original research, see for instance m:research, m:Wikiresearch, m:Wikimedia Research Network, m:wikiversity, m:category:research, and m:statistics. Whether Meta-Wiki is a "reputable" enough source to be cited in Wikipedia has yet to be established (...to be continued).
Anyone having a problem with any of these proposed changes? -- Francis Schonken 23:43, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
Till a few days ago the paragraph pointing at the importance of this policy read:
This policy is important because Wikipedia must impose certain restrictions to its content if it is to become known as a well-respected and reliable source of information. Another way to consider it: what do you expect from your grocery store? Almost everything it sells to you, it buys from someone else. Now ask yourself: would you buy from your grocery store if you so much as suspected that you couldn't trust what you were buying? So, too, here at Wikipedia. It's an obligation of Wikipedia to its readers that the information they read here be reliable and reputable.
I suppose it's safe to state that Slrubenstein, SlimVirgin and Francis Schonken agree that the "grocery store analogy" was not the best available solution to tackle this topic.
Note also that the "grocery store" paragraph already has been discussed a few times on this page. -- Francis Schonken 07:21, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Presently this part of the policy text reads:
This policy is a counterpart to several core policies, and is thus important for several reasons:
- It's an obligation of Wikipedia to its readers that the information they read here be reliable and reputable. Published sources are generally reliable and reputable.
- Of course, not all published sources are reliable and reputable. But by relying on citable sources, we help readers of Wikipedia evaluate the quality of our research. See Wikipedia:No_original_research#What_counts_as_a_reputable_publication? for a discussion on how to judge whether a source is reliable.
- Relying on citable sources also may encourage new contributors. For example, if someone knows of an important source that the article has not drawn on, he or she may feel more confident in adding important material to the article.
- Citable sources provide readers with resources they may consult to pursue their own research. After all, some people turn to encyclopedias as a first step in research, not as a last step.
- Relying on citable sources helps clarify what points of view are represented in an article, and thus helps us comply with our NPOV policy.
The text is by Slrubenstein, with minor adjustments by SlimVirgin. Francis already produced some comments on this text above, here is a more comprehensive list of comments:
I proposed following short version of the argumentation of why this policy is important:
This policy is important because Wikipedia wants to be a reliable source of information, simply said: reliability above novelty.
Other comments than "reverts" where not yet provided re. the content of this version of the argumentation. -- Francis Schonken 07:21, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
If we know a planet's (or more specifically a Kuiper belt object's) mass and diameter, does it count as original research if I calculate its density, surface gravity and escape velocity? The formulae for that are quite well-known, trivial to derive, and definitely verifiable. However, I haven't yet found a source where such per-calculated data is given for, for example, 2003 EL61. The reason for that is, in my opinion, that the scientific community does not need such plain figures, and if they do, they can always calculate them as I've done. The only places where such data is useful are encyclopedias and, for example, popular science magazines, but the subject is too new for them (except Wikipedia) to include them yet. Personally I think that it counts as plain synthesis of known sources and not an original research as no research paper would consist of just applying three well-known formulae to well-known data in a totally non-original and routine way. What do you think? — Pt (T) 11:02, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
FYI: another thing I've calculated from given data is the mean orbital speed for 2005 FY9. The formula for that is perhaps not so easy to derive, but anyway it isn't anything very special and I'm quite sure it has been published somewhere. Also I've checked my formulae with the planets where more data are known. Anyhow, may I do that or not? — Pt (T) 11:12, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
It surprises me, how often questions like this come up (although I take it as a positive sign that people take this policy seriously). I thought the 'apple pie" example would suffice to make clear what is allowable. However, I added to that paragraph this: "(1) makes descriptive claims that are easily verifiable by any reasonable adult" based on ChrisG's very clear and simple explanation above. I do think it is evident that we need to work a bit more on the policy to make it less likely that people will raise these kinds of questions on the talk:page. I am not sure if this means adding even more to the apple pie/current events paragraph in the intro (I am inclined not to), or to add another section in the main body of the article, perhaps including a checklist, that will help people assuage their doubts about whether they are or are not complying with the policy. I consider this one of the most important policies we have, but if many people interpret it in a way that discourages them from contributing to articles — especially in the way Pt raises (which to me sounds more like elaborating on or clarifying or developing a point that has already been established), then we are not done with our work of crafting this policy into something really useful. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:33, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
Thank you all very much for the feedback! I think that the policy should really be a bit clearer about that. — Pt (T) 18:22, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
We cannot make an assertion in an article if "it introduces an original argument purporting to refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position described in the article;"
What if someone makes claims that have no valid semantic interpretation, and they have not provided a full explanation? I'm trying to come up with examples, but it's difficult because I tend to think too logically. The one I've come across is "the documentary was a conspiracy theory". That is nonsense as "conspiracy theory" is not an applicable category to "documentary". Can one not say so in an article where this assertion is quoted? (I guess the similar sentence "the documentary described a conspiracy theory" is the one intended, but what if the other's a construct that's used consistently? Common sloppy use of language should be highlighted in articles. This is perfectly normal in an encylopedia.)
What of other basic (valid) logical derivations? e.g. X was in Texas, Y was in Kansas, so X could not perform some action with Y. Is logical derivation restricted to the talk pages unless one can show that someone else has made the derivation? Is it prohibited even there? This seems like a very bad policy, and not what was originally intended when the concept of original research was introduced.
A further problem is with assertions that cannot be immediately sourced. Placeholders should be allowed for a duration based on good faith (a more fundamental wiki principle that NOR) and the nature of the previous edits of the contributor. Assertions that are not present cannot be sourced.
I hereby object to this part of the policy as it stands. Please sign below if you agree. Suggestions for alternatives welcome.
Otherwise, please explain why you think it's necessary.
Mr. Jones 21:49, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I do not think you understand the policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 22:22, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
This policy states that there are some things that you cannot do on wikipedia. If the policy page does not mention something, thenn obviously, this policy has nothing to say about that. If you really are doing original research, then do not do it. If you think you are not doing original research, then you do not think you are violating this policy. You make it sound like youthink you are violating this policy and you think you are not. Make up your mind. If you are not doing original research, why are youmaking such a big deal about this? What is the point? Go work on an article. Research a topic, and contribute something. Slrubenstein | Talk 03:04, 8 August 2005 (UTC)
Why were several other policy pages re-hashed here? Linking is sufficient. Effectively creating forks of existing policies here isn't a very good idea. It's also an example of instruction creep.
It is important not to distract from what this page is about: No original research. All this page should do is explain that policy, and no more. The Related policies section seems more a general primer for Wikipedia policies.
A user coming to this page may well have looked at the huge size of it and walked away. With a smaller, tighter page hopefully more people will read it, and take it on board.
I must also say, I prefer the original version best :-). Dan100 ( Talk) 13:16, August 11, 2005 (UTC)
SlimVirgin is right, Dan — in general, no one should make changes, let alone major changes, to content before discussing it first. As for the specific material you removed, well, I personally don't think you have a strong case. Wikipedia is not a paper encyclopedia so there is no need to be skimply; the policies are, as SV points our, very much linked. I don't think reviewing or summarizing other policies is "instruction creep." Nor di I see how it makes it harder to follow, ipso facto. Indeed, I think there is a real virtue to showing how, exactly, this policy fits in with others. I thinkk we have to do this here. Of course, if you think it is poorly written i.e. not clear that is a matter of style and we should discuss how to make it clearer. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:04, 15 August 2005 (UTC)
With all due respect to SlimVirgin, I have done some more rearranging and editing. I added back the material on "linked oilicies" that had been deleted, but I also pared these sections down to the bare minimum and did some rewriting to show how, exactly, they link to this policy. I also tried to make the organization a little more logical (well, my kind of logic, at least), Slrubenstein | Talk 19:22, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
Now you know I'd never want to make you cry! In part, my editing was defensive (against anyone who would continue to complain about instruction-creep). Q: would the Hawking example be better placed in the Verifiability policy page? Slrubenstein | Talk 19:39, 24 August 2005 (UTC)
I have real concerns over this page. While I do not want to see research papers placed into the Wikipedia data because they can not make the grade to get into a peer review journal, I think that this page is very badly worded and lends its self as being used as a bludgeon in arguments over the contents of Wikipedia articles.
For example instead of using outside definitions of what original research is, this article states: "Original research refers to untested theories; data, statements, concepts and ideas that have not been published in a reputable publication; or any new interpretation, analysis, or synthesis of published data, statements, concepts or ideas that, in the words of Wikipedia's founder Jimbo Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation". as it is a statement which has not been published in a reputable publication it can be argued that it is Original research because "original research refers to...statements...that have not been published in a reputable publication". Now I know that one can argue that it is covered by the statment lower down the page under "'A few pages have been created devoted to research into issues related to Wikipedia" but that is tenuous to say the least.
It seem to me from the above NOR statment that any statement which is not a quote with a reference, can be construed as original research. For example if one makes the statement in an article "The Thames flows through London" without citing a source then it can be argued that it is original research, because the NOR sentence "n some cases, where an article makes descriptive claims that are easily verifiable by any reasonable adult...Wikipedia article may be based entirely on primary sources" still means that a primary source ought to be cited. But if every statement in every sentence has to be sourced then Wikipedia will become stilted to the point of being unreadable.
See the section above on #Data Mining. In that User:SlimVirgin states ""original research" doesn't refer to any research method", yet as I pointed out to her "research" has a specific meaning in academic circles. I think the term "Original Research" should be based on external to Wikipedia definitions, like one from the OED (if it exists) or those used by respectable peer review journals like Nature or European Constitutional Law Review (EuConst) to take two which are in different fields and would cover diffrent types of Wikipedia articles.
This of course lends its self to a potential paradox. If one tries to publish an article in Nature which is rejected because it is not "original research" could it be published here?
Never the less the defintion for "original research" should be based on external definitions it should not be based on one make up by a few wikipedia editors who happen on this wikipedia page. Philip Baird Shearer 13:28, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
Also, I think that the apple pie and current events examples respond to most of the concerns expressed here. The Thames example is an inappropriate one, given the text of this policy. SR
"In summary, if the facts, opinions, or arguments you want to include in an article have not been published by a credible or reputable publication, you're engaged in original research." What about lists? As I pointed out above #Bludgeon any list which is not already in the public domain and appears in Wikipedia as a copy of list generated in a EU memeber country is either already protected under EU directives and so is a breach of copyright or the database directive [5] [6] [7], or if written by a EU resident is original research by the definitions given in this article and those of European directives. Philip Baird Shearer 13:28, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
"Secondary sources present a generalization, analysis, synthesis, interpretation, or evaluation of information or data." By definition if any Wikipedia page fulfils the earlier criteria of no NOR, then surly are they not a secondary source because they "present a generalization... of information or data." ?
The phrase "people who do not rely on Wikipedia" can cause a problem. There needs to be something added to this article about following wikipedia links to sources. For example the article Levellers used to contain this reference to the Putney Debates [8] as does The Agreement of the People [9]. However when the article Putney Debates was written user: DanKeshet removed the first referece (I think correctly) stating in the history of the Levellers article that the "external link already present in our article on putney debates, no need to cite it here, esp. not in a footnote". Yet the wording on the NOR makes no allowance for this very sensible edit. However one has to guard against expecting a person to wade through lots of links to get to an external source which may not exist if the Wikipedia pages go in a cirlcle: e.g. States of Germany-> State-> State (non-sovereign)-> States of Germany! (In this case province would be a better article to link to, but that is a seperate issue.) Philip Baird Shearer 13:28, 27 August 2005 (UTC)
I've done some redrafting, which includes removing two paragraphs which relate wholly to the NPOV policy and add nothing to the the NOR discussion. I like the new specific applications sections and suspect the policy could be best improved with the addition of additional specific applications that keep coming up on the talk pages. For example:
We can probably identify more by going through the talk page discussions in detail. T: ChrisG 16:22, 28 August 2005 (UTC)
I'm a little confused about the section that deals with primary and secondary sources. I removed secondary sources from: "Original research is research that creates primary sources or secondary sources." If we quote or discuss a court transcript, for example (a primary source), then we become a secondary source, but that's not an example of original research. If anyone objects to this being removed, feel free to restore. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:01, August 30, 2005 (UTC)