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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
The way the page reads now:
"Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. Research that draws predominantly on primary sources is generally discouraged, in favor of research based on secondary sources. However, where an article (1) makes only uncontentious descriptive claims the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable adult without specialist knowledge, and (2) makes no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, or evaluative claims, a Wikipedia article may be based entirely or primarily on primary sources (examples would include apple pie or current events). These are relatively rare exceptions and contributors drawing predominately or solely from primary sources should be exceptionally careful to comply with both conditions.
"Research that consists of collecting and organizing information from primary and secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia."
Note the use of the word "predominatly" in the second sentence. The following sentence then addresses when a person can use solely primary sources (no secondary sources needed) in the case of apple pie or current events. And then states those are rare.
Finally it follows up in the next paragraph by reminding over-zealous editors that "source-based research" is not "original research".
That articles should be ideally a mix of both primary and secondary sources, has been the policy for quite a long time. The above wording is satisfactory to me. Wjhonson 02:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: I'm having trouble distinguishing what's being asserted as proto-quasi-consensus from what is merely its embedding excess of excipient explanatory expletives in this section. Could folks please consider blockquoting their proposed proposals? Gratia in futuro, Jon Awbrey 15:01, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Gerry, I implore you to stop mixing up NOR with Verifiability. They are two separate policies. You keep bringing up verifiability. If an edit is unverifiable, it is bad because it violates the verifiability policy, not because it violates the NOR policy. If you want to debate the verifiability policy, do so on its own page. As to NOR, which is distinct from verifiability, Wjhonson is confused and simply does not understand out policy. I implore him to actually read it and learn it and comply with it. Wjhonson writes that "Quoting a primary source is never OR." This is flat out false. Sometimes it is OR, and some times it is not OR. He writes, "OR is creating your *own* new facts *yourself*." This is only one example of OR. OR also applies to using facts including those taken from primary sources to express a new (i.e. the editor´s own) interpretation, explanation, anlysis, synthesis, or argument. The issue is HOW one uses primary sources, and if one uses primary sources in this way, one is violating the policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
What Slrubenstain wants is a policy that allows him to remove certain facts he does not like, like this chart that he currently opposes being added to the capitalism article. Ultramarine 17:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I would like to make clear that SlimVirgin removed comments from this page that another user had posted. That may not be apparent to those who do not view the history. Wjhonson 05:23, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I had no time to join the discussion yesterday, but I've tried to read and understand everything that was posted since my last edit. Doing my best to interpret all that was written, here is my summary of what I think the disputes at hand are. I post this in hope that I'm correct in identifying where we disagree, and that by clarifying this, we are closer to resolution.
First obsevation: There are two very distinct sets of edits that got caught up in the series of reverts and article protection. The first disagreement is over "expert editors", when they can cite themselves, and whether they cab make "vanity" postings. The second disagreement is over the use in general of primary and secondary sources. If there is another disagreement caught up in the protection that I didn't note, please describe it immediately below this paragraph.
I am not a party to the first disagreement over "expert editors". I hope that disagreement can be reconciled so the article can be unprotected swiftly, but I don't have any key insights there.
With regards to the second disagreement over primary and secondary sources, I believe that there is quite a bit of people misinterpreting what each other has to say. I see three separate issues being discussed.
1: Prohibition of primary sources: There is a lot of argument above about whether primary sources should be (or would be) prohibited under any of the proposed edits. Oddly though, I don't see anybody claiming that they want primary sources prohibited. Can all parties simply agree that prohibition of primary sources is not on the table? Once we agree to that, I think we can save a lot of typing. Of course, if anybody is championing the idea of prohibiting primary sources, they should clearly speak up.
2: Secondary sources are preferred to primary sources: I think on this issue there is genuine disagreement. Several editors have said straight-out that they prefer secondary sources over primary sources, and that the NOR policy has historically backed this preference. Several other editors (including myself) have said that primary and secondary sources are equally welcome in articles, and they NOR policy has never given preference to secondary sources over primary sources. This is, I think, the stickiest issue here. Until we agree on this issue, I fear there is little hope of agreeing on language.
3: Restriction on exclusive use of primary sources: There is obviously debate around the wordsmithing of the "makes only uncontentious" and "make no analytic" paragraphs. This is the language that I think Slrubenstein set out to clarify, but without agreement on issue #2 above, I think we are all talking past each other in our attempt to find consensus.
So, without me actually making any proposal here as to how the policy should be worded, could the parties to this debate point out if they think I have identified the issues at hand? - O^O 18:08, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: With all due respect, SV, I understood the policy quite well, as it was written at the time when I first read it. My understanding of that policy is precisely what causes me so strenuously to object to the most recent attempts to subvert it. Jon Awbrey 19:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Here are what I think are some generally held common sense notions:
JA: Jon Awbrey 18:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: My own last, best hope for WP-kind got lost in an edit conflict, so I'll have to go dig it up, but here is the penultimate version:
Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. Original research that draws predominantly on primary sources or single secondary sources is generally discouraged, in favor of research based on independent and multiple sources.
JA: I think that this states what is just plain common sense in the Real World of journalism and scholarship. Jon Awbrey 18:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Here is the more complete and correct version, which was discused briefly above — but I'm hopeful that all our heads are much clearer today.
JA: Jon Awbrey 19:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: With regard to Point 1, to wit:
Wikipedia must discourage, indeed prohibit, research that draws on primary bibliographic sources when a contributor does so in order to express or forward the contributor´s own interpretation, explanation, analysis, or synthesis of a topic.
JA: Here you are confounding two separate matters. Wikipedia must discourage, indeed prohibit, all research that a contributor uses in order to express or forward the contributor´s own interpretation, explanation, analysis, or synthesis of a topic. Whether a contributor is doing that or not is a question that is wholly independent in principle from what order of research they are using. Jon Awbrey 19:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: It is not false in the ordinary sense of the words that I actually used. The work as published is definitive of its contents. That is why we cite sources in the first place. There were a number of misquotations and bizarre interpretations placed on what I wrote, but I am simply not responsible for those. Jon Awbrey 19:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Exactamundo. There are a few consequences of that. It's why we have things called "authorized editions" and "critical editions", and " variora", but I would not dream of suggesting that we should get the first pass reader of WikiPolicy O Lost in a' that. Jon Awbrey 20:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: The Precipitating Parents of the US almost made the mistake of thinking that the principles in the Bill of Rights were too basic and obvious to bother writing down.
JA: I used to think that the things I wrote were basic and obvious. But when I came to WP I found out that they were neither obvious nor taken for granted, especially out there in Trenchtown. When I first read the Big 3 WP policies, that was not news to me. Except for 1 or 2 peculiar things that are causing most of the current fiasco, WP did not invent the lion's share of those norms. They simply acronymized what some of us got grooved into our brains from about the 6th grade on.
JA: The NOR policy as I knew it was working just fine. It constituted one of the last bulwarks against people who are too lazy to read that 2nd book, and who use every excuse in that 1st book not to do the work of writing quality articles. I am not the one who starting messing with it. Jon Awbrey 06:06, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
The way the page reads now:
"Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. Research that draws predominantly on primary sources is generally discouraged, in favor of research based on secondary sources. However, where an article (1) makes only uncontentious descriptive claims the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable adult without specialist knowledge, and (2) makes no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, or evaluative claims, a Wikipedia article may be based entirely or primarily on primary sources (examples would include apple pie or current events). These are relatively rare exceptions and contributors drawing predominately or solely from primary sources should be exceptionally careful to comply with both conditions.
"Research that consists of collecting and organizing information from primary and secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia."
Note the use of the word "predominatly" in the second sentence. The following sentence then addresses when a person can use solely primary sources (no secondary sources needed) in the case of apple pie or current events. And then states those are rare.
Finally it follows up in the next paragraph by reminding over-zealous editors that "source-based research" is not "original research".
That articles should be ideally a mix of both primary and secondary sources, has been the policy for quite a long time. The above wording is satisfactory to me. Wjhonson 02:16, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: I'm having trouble distinguishing what's being asserted as proto-quasi-consensus from what is merely its embedding excess of excipient explanatory expletives in this section. Could folks please consider blockquoting their proposed proposals? Gratia in futuro, Jon Awbrey 15:01, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
Gerry, I implore you to stop mixing up NOR with Verifiability. They are two separate policies. You keep bringing up verifiability. If an edit is unverifiable, it is bad because it violates the verifiability policy, not because it violates the NOR policy. If you want to debate the verifiability policy, do so on its own page. As to NOR, which is distinct from verifiability, Wjhonson is confused and simply does not understand out policy. I implore him to actually read it and learn it and comply with it. Wjhonson writes that "Quoting a primary source is never OR." This is flat out false. Sometimes it is OR, and some times it is not OR. He writes, "OR is creating your *own* new facts *yourself*." This is only one example of OR. OR also applies to using facts including those taken from primary sources to express a new (i.e. the editor´s own) interpretation, explanation, anlysis, synthesis, or argument. The issue is HOW one uses primary sources, and if one uses primary sources in this way, one is violating the policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
What Slrubenstain wants is a policy that allows him to remove certain facts he does not like, like this chart that he currently opposes being added to the capitalism article. Ultramarine 17:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
I would like to make clear that SlimVirgin removed comments from this page that another user had posted. That may not be apparent to those who do not view the history. Wjhonson 05:23, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
I had no time to join the discussion yesterday, but I've tried to read and understand everything that was posted since my last edit. Doing my best to interpret all that was written, here is my summary of what I think the disputes at hand are. I post this in hope that I'm correct in identifying where we disagree, and that by clarifying this, we are closer to resolution.
First obsevation: There are two very distinct sets of edits that got caught up in the series of reverts and article protection. The first disagreement is over "expert editors", when they can cite themselves, and whether they cab make "vanity" postings. The second disagreement is over the use in general of primary and secondary sources. If there is another disagreement caught up in the protection that I didn't note, please describe it immediately below this paragraph.
I am not a party to the first disagreement over "expert editors". I hope that disagreement can be reconciled so the article can be unprotected swiftly, but I don't have any key insights there.
With regards to the second disagreement over primary and secondary sources, I believe that there is quite a bit of people misinterpreting what each other has to say. I see three separate issues being discussed.
1: Prohibition of primary sources: There is a lot of argument above about whether primary sources should be (or would be) prohibited under any of the proposed edits. Oddly though, I don't see anybody claiming that they want primary sources prohibited. Can all parties simply agree that prohibition of primary sources is not on the table? Once we agree to that, I think we can save a lot of typing. Of course, if anybody is championing the idea of prohibiting primary sources, they should clearly speak up.
2: Secondary sources are preferred to primary sources: I think on this issue there is genuine disagreement. Several editors have said straight-out that they prefer secondary sources over primary sources, and that the NOR policy has historically backed this preference. Several other editors (including myself) have said that primary and secondary sources are equally welcome in articles, and they NOR policy has never given preference to secondary sources over primary sources. This is, I think, the stickiest issue here. Until we agree on this issue, I fear there is little hope of agreeing on language.
3: Restriction on exclusive use of primary sources: There is obviously debate around the wordsmithing of the "makes only uncontentious" and "make no analytic" paragraphs. This is the language that I think Slrubenstein set out to clarify, but without agreement on issue #2 above, I think we are all talking past each other in our attempt to find consensus.
So, without me actually making any proposal here as to how the policy should be worded, could the parties to this debate point out if they think I have identified the issues at hand? - O^O 18:08, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: With all due respect, SV, I understood the policy quite well, as it was written at the time when I first read it. My understanding of that policy is precisely what causes me so strenuously to object to the most recent attempts to subvert it. Jon Awbrey 19:20, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Here are what I think are some generally held common sense notions:
JA: Jon Awbrey 18:45, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: My own last, best hope for WP-kind got lost in an edit conflict, so I'll have to go dig it up, but here is the penultimate version:
Original research that creates primary sources is not allowed. Original research that draws predominantly on primary sources or single secondary sources is generally discouraged, in favor of research based on independent and multiple sources.
JA: I think that this states what is just plain common sense in the Real World of journalism and scholarship. Jon Awbrey 18:50, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Here is the more complete and correct version, which was discused briefly above — but I'm hopeful that all our heads are much clearer today.
JA: Jon Awbrey 19:02, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: With regard to Point 1, to wit:
Wikipedia must discourage, indeed prohibit, research that draws on primary bibliographic sources when a contributor does so in order to express or forward the contributor´s own interpretation, explanation, analysis, or synthesis of a topic.
JA: Here you are confounding two separate matters. Wikipedia must discourage, indeed prohibit, all research that a contributor uses in order to express or forward the contributor´s own interpretation, explanation, analysis, or synthesis of a topic. Whether a contributor is doing that or not is a question that is wholly independent in principle from what order of research they are using. Jon Awbrey 19:12, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: It is not false in the ordinary sense of the words that I actually used. The work as published is definitive of its contents. That is why we cite sources in the first place. There were a number of misquotations and bizarre interpretations placed on what I wrote, but I am simply not responsible for those. Jon Awbrey 19:30, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Exactamundo. There are a few consequences of that. It's why we have things called "authorized editions" and "critical editions", and " variora", but I would not dream of suggesting that we should get the first pass reader of WikiPolicy O Lost in a' that. Jon Awbrey 20:14, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: The Precipitating Parents of the US almost made the mistake of thinking that the principles in the Bill of Rights were too basic and obvious to bother writing down.
JA: I used to think that the things I wrote were basic and obvious. But when I came to WP I found out that they were neither obvious nor taken for granted, especially out there in Trenchtown. When I first read the Big 3 WP policies, that was not news to me. Except for 1 or 2 peculiar things that are causing most of the current fiasco, WP did not invent the lion's share of those norms. They simply acronymized what some of us got grooved into our brains from about the 6th grade on.
JA: The NOR policy as I knew it was working just fine. It constituted one of the last bulwarks against people who are too lazy to read that 2nd book, and who use every excuse in that 1st book not to do the work of writing quality articles. I am not the one who starting messing with it. Jon Awbrey 06:06, 26 August 2006 (UTC)