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To refresh your memory let me point out these three edits YOU made:
And you are obstinate in the face of several editors disagreeing with your very changes, for the very reasons I pointed out. Instead of being obstinate which will get you exactly nowhere, why not try to figure out exactly what our issue is, and respond to *it* instead of some issue that we are not bringing up? The issue being that the wording as it *was* is very clear that Apple Pie is a narrow case where *solely* primary sources may be used. The policy said nothing about favoring primary *over* secondary, nor vice versa, but stated both in clear and simple language side-by-side. The ideal articles use *both* primary and secondary sources, on an equal footing. That has been long-standing policy which you continue to try to change by calling it "clarification", against consensus. Wjhonson 20:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Making a new section for collecting concrete examples of worst-case sinarios later. Remember, You Asked For It … Jon Awbrey 22:48, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Well thanks, FM, for saving me a trip to the archives.
SL [SLR?, SV?] is right, Wikipedia has historically not viewed primary and secondary sources equally. Over the last year myself and other have repeatedly told others that secondary sources were preferred to primary sources, many, many times. FeloniousMonk 22:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Will discuss later, time for dinner now. Jon Awbrey 23:23, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Having been the victim of some rather vicious Stalker Puppet Attacks in the past — thanks, I'm much better now — I am rather timorous about mentioning any articles that I still care about, but wot the hecque …
JA: Here's a list of articles where it was necessary to cite primary sources, more reliable secondary sources, or multiple sources of both kinds, by way of correcting common hearsay, easily recognizable misrepresentations, misquotations, and popular misconceptions, many of which were not sourced at all and many of which evidently devolved from popular writings and tertiary sources. Now, it could be argued — and I'm sure if it could argued anywhere it will be argued here — that I was seeking to "advance a position", say, the position that accuracy is preferable to baloney, so I think that we will eventually have to sew up that loophole, but like I said, one can'o'worms at a time.
JA: Let's start with an easy case, one where nothing bad has happened — yet — and yet I still lose sleep over it, on account of the very real and continuing possibility that it might. I don't want to get into diffs and all that unless it can't be helped, so let me just say how I remember things from the events of several months ago.
JA: There had been a running discussion about who invented the tabula rasa idea that took place on one or more of the articles that linked to that concept — maybe it was Scientific Method or Empiricism or both. I had never really thought about it before. Most folks associate the idea with John Locke, but I seemed to recall that Latin was not his main medium, so I suspected that it must have been a legacy from Medieval times, at least. Finally tiring of all the Blue Sky discussions, I get off my duff and rummage through some old books, eventually tracking the idea back through Aquinas to Aristotle, which data I duly type into the article. Is there something sinfully original about what I did or not? Sensible folk would probably say not.
JA: But wait, what if somebody objects that I'm using direct quotations of primary sources to "advance a position", all without having their insidious primacy canonized and sanitized to bits by some duly infallible Western Canonizer? Do I have to dig up some third party source as a notary public? Or wait around with bated breath for some secondary sourcerer to confirm the literary link to which my own sore eyes bare witness? I know, you can't imagine how that would happen. Sadly, I don't have to imagine. Jon Awbrey 17:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Thanks, I will slate you as a "sensible person". Still, I have run into cases where people would delete similar sorts of citations on charges that I personally felt were rather trumped up. But I said that it was an easy case, and I am just trying to establish a baseline for future discussion. Jon Awbrey 18:04, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: The context is this. Ockham has lately acquired something of a cult following in certain quarters, and folks who have evidently read even less of him than yours truly have taken to attributing magical powers to that humble razor that he drew on a day from a stone and struck on yet another rock to draw forth the mainstreams of modern science in one swell foop. So my yeoman labor of dredging up this more refined secondary source, which so compactly epitomizes the facts behind the epic genesis — well, you'd think it was some kind of iconoclastic blasphemy the way they rent their garments, and shredded not a few of my e-pistles over it. I mean, who are Kneale & Kneale to whittle down the razor whitticisms broadcast every hour by the Ockham Gospel Podcast? Jon Awbrey 04:00, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Thank you for confirming my judgment. Unfortunately, you were not there to assist when this inclusion was challenged, and you may not be available the next time a similar case arises, so I need to have a clearly written policy which says that it's okay to add credible information to an article, even if it discomfits somebody who cannot produce credible sources for their additions. What you are not appreciating is the fact that people can and did "challenge the inclusion", quite strenuously. I eventually won out, but y'know Nothing Is Binding here, and it was only because I had WP policy statements that were just barely clear and firm enough to back me up at the time. The frozen version of WP:NOR and the parallel changes in the others that were added in recent cycles are just not that clear or firm anymore. Jon Awbrey 06:42, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: The purpose of citing these few particular examples is to illuminate a general consideration of some signficance for the overall quality of WP articles. In the case at hand, the aptness of the quotation from Kneale & Kneale was discussed at length by the editors on board, and it was decided to keep it. At least it was still there the last time I looked. It served to increment the quality of the information in the article in some measure and very compactly summed up what was known to the writers at the time of writing. Because I did check the information with several other sources on Ockham, I know that it reflects the general state of what was known to be in and out of his writings at the time. We all understand that some old incunabulum can turn up in an archive, an attic, or a cask of amontillado at any time. But in the meantime the best way of saying what Kneale & Kneale said in 1962 is simply to quote (Kneale & Kneale, 1962). Jon Awbrey 16:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
JA: Later, Jon Awbrey 02:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: I understand the difference between "verified" and "verifiable", but I can't follow the rest of what you say. I guess my Virgil here — if you catch my drift — is to ask the question: "What would we expect WikiParadiso editors to do?" Wouldn't we expect them to consult primary sources and to collate multiple secondary sources into a critical compendium of the of human knowledge, like encyclopedia writers have proverbially claimed to do for as long anybody can remember? Would you shell out good money, or time, or energy for it if it didn't do that? Maybe, but not for long. Jon Awbrey 19:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Gosh, it may take me till dawn to read all that, but a qwik-scan makes me think that you might have misread my premiss. I am just saying, wouldn't we all expect a self-respecting article writer to check primary sources? — isn't that just the sort of thing that we'd consider the normal and normative conduct of experts and competent amateurs alike? I just think so. Back later, Jon Awbrey 20:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Fashions in education tend to go in cycles like most other fashions. When I was going through the first couple of wringers — speaking of cycles, do people still know what a wringer was? — there was a call to "Read the Masters", and so my sophomore QM class took its main text from Dirac's Principles of Quantum Mechanics (1st ed. 1930, 4th ed. rev. 1967), supplemented by the Feynman excursus and the radically reformed vulgate from Berkeley. We all hang out in different bars, I guess, but I have to report that I have not met many physicists or even EE types who haven't read Maxwell and tinkered a bit with all his silver hammers. Go figure (as Leibniz hath commanded us). Jon Awbrey 16:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Given that a number of objections to the changes seem to have been prompted by the issue of primary sources in historical contexts, could we perhaps simply get away with noting that primary sources whose accuracy has been commented on by secondary sources can be used in correspondence to that evaluation? In other words, that a primary source can be used directly if it's a known quantity in historiographical terms? This might eliminate the concerns about using sources like Guicciardini and the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, for example. Kirill Lokshin 23:13, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Did someone forget to complete the archive op? Jon Awbrey 03:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
(NB:This gets quite long, but for the clarity of future readers, please make any comments at the end)
Ok, I have a habit of finding a heated debate and wading in. After skimming the above disuccusions, I doubt that any consensus has been reached. I appologise if it has, and this ends up stiring up an old dead debate.
Firstly, it is stated that WP:NOR exists to support WP:VERIFY, rather than the other way around ("Another effect of this policy is that as original research will not be supported by reputable sources, it cannot be included." - from WP:VERIFY). In formal writing, it is good practice to cite your sources, because it allows your reasoning to be checked and further information to be found, hence WP:VERIFY. WP:NOT is a logical extension of WP:VERIFY, that if a a fact cannot be referenced, it should not be present. Failure to verify is far more easily established than original research, and indeed a conclusion of original research is an extension of failure to verify. Stating something as being original research implies that not only is not not sourced, but it is a conclusion reached by the editor. It cannot be reached without the verdict of failure to verify (as a properly verified statement is by definition not original research).
Thus it follows on that, in my opinion, in the case of sourced statements, WP:RS is, despite being a guideline, more important than WP:NOT. Without determining is a source is reliable or not, it cannot be shown to original research. WP:RS is a guideline not because it is not important, but because of the inherant difficulties in defining a good, reliable source. Consider the statements within WP:RS about the validity of primary and secondary sources to be the lead, not the follow.
The key facts within WP:NOR in my opinion are (using => as 'implies'):
There is often some confusion over what the primary source for a subject is. For example, when referencing a song, I have seen people attempting to use YouTube as a reference. However this is not the correct reference - the recording of the song itself that is depicted in the sample is the reference. If a politician makes a speach, it is the speach that is the reference, not the politician (although the speach is a work by the politician). The original painting is the reference for the painting, not a photograph of it. However the photograph of the painting is a reference for the photographic work of the photographer.
This confusion continues into the realm of secondary sources. here, however, it gets more difficult as we have to consider the purpose that a reference is being used for. For example, let us return to that photograph of a painting. it certainly does class as a secondary source for the existance of the painting - for the photographer has documented it. However it may not be used as a secondary source for the evaluation of the painting, as the photograph makes no attempt to do this. It is interesting to note that when an expert evaluates something, they become a secondary source on something, but also a primary source for their evaluation.
Finally, come come onto the crux of the matter. In my opinion, based on WP:VERIFY, WP:RS and WP:NOT (the intent of, rather):
...I could go on, but not right now, I'm out of steam. I'm going to post some of the above over on WP:RS, as it may be of some use to them. The key thing here is trivial uses are allowed. This is important, as it is often the case that commentators behind secondary sources will choose not to mention trivial points, as they often believe them to be obvious. Without allowing for trivial observations, common sense facts become hard to cite at all. LinaMishima 19:07, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: You are misgrokking something very basic here — that all three, er, principles are basically one — they are the Not Making Stuff Up Principle. Jon Awbrey 22:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: I only had time to give it a quick once over, but there seemed to be several places where you were trying to order the policies by some kind of logical dependency, precedence, or priority, for instance here:
Firstly, it is stated that WP:NOR exists to support WP:VERIFY, rather than the other way around ("Another effect of this policy is that as original research will not be supported by reputable sources, it cannot be included." - from WP:VERIFY).
JA: Given the intricate entanglements of the three main policies I think that any attempt at a hierarchical ordering is ultimately futile. Of course you can chase the tail of mutual recussedness around, but it just keeps going round and round. Jon Awbrey 03:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: DGMW, I'm not discouraging analysis of the logical and pragmatic relationship among the Big 3, indeed, I continue to pursue it. It's just that the excursion so far does not lead me to believe that we'll be qwite so qwikili getting to the of the ⊥-less lake.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
To refresh your memory let me point out these three edits YOU made:
And you are obstinate in the face of several editors disagreeing with your very changes, for the very reasons I pointed out. Instead of being obstinate which will get you exactly nowhere, why not try to figure out exactly what our issue is, and respond to *it* instead of some issue that we are not bringing up? The issue being that the wording as it *was* is very clear that Apple Pie is a narrow case where *solely* primary sources may be used. The policy said nothing about favoring primary *over* secondary, nor vice versa, but stated both in clear and simple language side-by-side. The ideal articles use *both* primary and secondary sources, on an equal footing. That has been long-standing policy which you continue to try to change by calling it "clarification", against consensus. Wjhonson 20:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Making a new section for collecting concrete examples of worst-case sinarios later. Remember, You Asked For It … Jon Awbrey 22:48, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Well thanks, FM, for saving me a trip to the archives.
SL [SLR?, SV?] is right, Wikipedia has historically not viewed primary and secondary sources equally. Over the last year myself and other have repeatedly told others that secondary sources were preferred to primary sources, many, many times. FeloniousMonk 22:57, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Will discuss later, time for dinner now. Jon Awbrey 23:23, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Having been the victim of some rather vicious Stalker Puppet Attacks in the past — thanks, I'm much better now — I am rather timorous about mentioning any articles that I still care about, but wot the hecque …
JA: Here's a list of articles where it was necessary to cite primary sources, more reliable secondary sources, or multiple sources of both kinds, by way of correcting common hearsay, easily recognizable misrepresentations, misquotations, and popular misconceptions, many of which were not sourced at all and many of which evidently devolved from popular writings and tertiary sources. Now, it could be argued — and I'm sure if it could argued anywhere it will be argued here — that I was seeking to "advance a position", say, the position that accuracy is preferable to baloney, so I think that we will eventually have to sew up that loophole, but like I said, one can'o'worms at a time.
JA: Let's start with an easy case, one where nothing bad has happened — yet — and yet I still lose sleep over it, on account of the very real and continuing possibility that it might. I don't want to get into diffs and all that unless it can't be helped, so let me just say how I remember things from the events of several months ago.
JA: There had been a running discussion about who invented the tabula rasa idea that took place on one or more of the articles that linked to that concept — maybe it was Scientific Method or Empiricism or both. I had never really thought about it before. Most folks associate the idea with John Locke, but I seemed to recall that Latin was not his main medium, so I suspected that it must have been a legacy from Medieval times, at least. Finally tiring of all the Blue Sky discussions, I get off my duff and rummage through some old books, eventually tracking the idea back through Aquinas to Aristotle, which data I duly type into the article. Is there something sinfully original about what I did or not? Sensible folk would probably say not.
JA: But wait, what if somebody objects that I'm using direct quotations of primary sources to "advance a position", all without having their insidious primacy canonized and sanitized to bits by some duly infallible Western Canonizer? Do I have to dig up some third party source as a notary public? Or wait around with bated breath for some secondary sourcerer to confirm the literary link to which my own sore eyes bare witness? I know, you can't imagine how that would happen. Sadly, I don't have to imagine. Jon Awbrey 17:25, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Thanks, I will slate you as a "sensible person". Still, I have run into cases where people would delete similar sorts of citations on charges that I personally felt were rather trumped up. But I said that it was an easy case, and I am just trying to establish a baseline for future discussion. Jon Awbrey 18:04, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: The context is this. Ockham has lately acquired something of a cult following in certain quarters, and folks who have evidently read even less of him than yours truly have taken to attributing magical powers to that humble razor that he drew on a day from a stone and struck on yet another rock to draw forth the mainstreams of modern science in one swell foop. So my yeoman labor of dredging up this more refined secondary source, which so compactly epitomizes the facts behind the epic genesis — well, you'd think it was some kind of iconoclastic blasphemy the way they rent their garments, and shredded not a few of my e-pistles over it. I mean, who are Kneale & Kneale to whittle down the razor whitticisms broadcast every hour by the Ockham Gospel Podcast? Jon Awbrey 04:00, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Thank you for confirming my judgment. Unfortunately, you were not there to assist when this inclusion was challenged, and you may not be available the next time a similar case arises, so I need to have a clearly written policy which says that it's okay to add credible information to an article, even if it discomfits somebody who cannot produce credible sources for their additions. What you are not appreciating is the fact that people can and did "challenge the inclusion", quite strenuously. I eventually won out, but y'know Nothing Is Binding here, and it was only because I had WP policy statements that were just barely clear and firm enough to back me up at the time. The frozen version of WP:NOR and the parallel changes in the others that were added in recent cycles are just not that clear or firm anymore. Jon Awbrey 06:42, 26 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: The purpose of citing these few particular examples is to illuminate a general consideration of some signficance for the overall quality of WP articles. In the case at hand, the aptness of the quotation from Kneale & Kneale was discussed at length by the editors on board, and it was decided to keep it. At least it was still there the last time I looked. It served to increment the quality of the information in the article in some measure and very compactly summed up what was known to the writers at the time of writing. Because I did check the information with several other sources on Ockham, I know that it reflects the general state of what was known to be in and out of his writings at the time. We all understand that some old incunabulum can turn up in an archive, an attic, or a cask of amontillado at any time. But in the meantime the best way of saying what Kneale & Kneale said in 1962 is simply to quote (Kneale & Kneale, 1962). Jon Awbrey 16:00, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
JA: Later, Jon Awbrey 02:10, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: I understand the difference between "verified" and "verifiable", but I can't follow the rest of what you say. I guess my Virgil here — if you catch my drift — is to ask the question: "What would we expect WikiParadiso editors to do?" Wouldn't we expect them to consult primary sources and to collate multiple secondary sources into a critical compendium of the of human knowledge, like encyclopedia writers have proverbially claimed to do for as long anybody can remember? Would you shell out good money, or time, or energy for it if it didn't do that? Maybe, but not for long. Jon Awbrey 19:38, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Gosh, it may take me till dawn to read all that, but a qwik-scan makes me think that you might have misread my premiss. I am just saying, wouldn't we all expect a self-respecting article writer to check primary sources? — isn't that just the sort of thing that we'd consider the normal and normative conduct of experts and competent amateurs alike? I just think so. Back later, Jon Awbrey 20:12, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Fashions in education tend to go in cycles like most other fashions. When I was going through the first couple of wringers — speaking of cycles, do people still know what a wringer was? — there was a call to "Read the Masters", and so my sophomore QM class took its main text from Dirac's Principles of Quantum Mechanics (1st ed. 1930, 4th ed. rev. 1967), supplemented by the Feynman excursus and the radically reformed vulgate from Berkeley. We all hang out in different bars, I guess, but I have to report that I have not met many physicists or even EE types who haven't read Maxwell and tinkered a bit with all his silver hammers. Go figure (as Leibniz hath commanded us). Jon Awbrey 16:24, 4 September 2006 (UTC)
Given that a number of objections to the changes seem to have been prompted by the issue of primary sources in historical contexts, could we perhaps simply get away with noting that primary sources whose accuracy has been commented on by secondary sources can be used in correspondence to that evaluation? In other words, that a primary source can be used directly if it's a known quantity in historiographical terms? This might eliminate the concerns about using sources like Guicciardini and the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, for example. Kirill Lokshin 23:13, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: Did someone forget to complete the archive op? Jon Awbrey 03:58, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
(NB:This gets quite long, but for the clarity of future readers, please make any comments at the end)
Ok, I have a habit of finding a heated debate and wading in. After skimming the above disuccusions, I doubt that any consensus has been reached. I appologise if it has, and this ends up stiring up an old dead debate.
Firstly, it is stated that WP:NOR exists to support WP:VERIFY, rather than the other way around ("Another effect of this policy is that as original research will not be supported by reputable sources, it cannot be included." - from WP:VERIFY). In formal writing, it is good practice to cite your sources, because it allows your reasoning to be checked and further information to be found, hence WP:VERIFY. WP:NOT is a logical extension of WP:VERIFY, that if a a fact cannot be referenced, it should not be present. Failure to verify is far more easily established than original research, and indeed a conclusion of original research is an extension of failure to verify. Stating something as being original research implies that not only is not not sourced, but it is a conclusion reached by the editor. It cannot be reached without the verdict of failure to verify (as a properly verified statement is by definition not original research).
Thus it follows on that, in my opinion, in the case of sourced statements, WP:RS is, despite being a guideline, more important than WP:NOT. Without determining is a source is reliable or not, it cannot be shown to original research. WP:RS is a guideline not because it is not important, but because of the inherant difficulties in defining a good, reliable source. Consider the statements within WP:RS about the validity of primary and secondary sources to be the lead, not the follow.
The key facts within WP:NOR in my opinion are (using => as 'implies'):
There is often some confusion over what the primary source for a subject is. For example, when referencing a song, I have seen people attempting to use YouTube as a reference. However this is not the correct reference - the recording of the song itself that is depicted in the sample is the reference. If a politician makes a speach, it is the speach that is the reference, not the politician (although the speach is a work by the politician). The original painting is the reference for the painting, not a photograph of it. However the photograph of the painting is a reference for the photographic work of the photographer.
This confusion continues into the realm of secondary sources. here, however, it gets more difficult as we have to consider the purpose that a reference is being used for. For example, let us return to that photograph of a painting. it certainly does class as a secondary source for the existance of the painting - for the photographer has documented it. However it may not be used as a secondary source for the evaluation of the painting, as the photograph makes no attempt to do this. It is interesting to note that when an expert evaluates something, they become a secondary source on something, but also a primary source for their evaluation.
Finally, come come onto the crux of the matter. In my opinion, based on WP:VERIFY, WP:RS and WP:NOT (the intent of, rather):
...I could go on, but not right now, I'm out of steam. I'm going to post some of the above over on WP:RS, as it may be of some use to them. The key thing here is trivial uses are allowed. This is important, as it is often the case that commentators behind secondary sources will choose not to mention trivial points, as they often believe them to be obvious. Without allowing for trivial observations, common sense facts become hard to cite at all. LinaMishima 19:07, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: You are misgrokking something very basic here — that all three, er, principles are basically one — they are the Not Making Stuff Up Principle. Jon Awbrey 22:48, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: I only had time to give it a quick once over, but there seemed to be several places where you were trying to order the policies by some kind of logical dependency, precedence, or priority, for instance here:
Firstly, it is stated that WP:NOR exists to support WP:VERIFY, rather than the other way around ("Another effect of this policy is that as original research will not be supported by reputable sources, it cannot be included." - from WP:VERIFY).
JA: Given the intricate entanglements of the three main policies I think that any attempt at a hierarchical ordering is ultimately futile. Of course you can chase the tail of mutual recussedness around, but it just keeps going round and round. Jon Awbrey 03:18, 25 August 2006 (UTC)
JA: DGMW, I'm not discouraging analysis of the logical and pragmatic relationship among the Big 3, indeed, I continue to pursue it. It's just that the excursion so far does not lead me to believe that we'll be qwite so qwikili getting to the of the ⊥-less lake.