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Okay, I firmly disagree with those editors who claim that prior to my edit a couple of days ago, Wikipedia treated primary and secondary sources equaly. My position is that the paragraph that ests two conditions for the use of primary sources marks a significant and major difference in our standards for using primary versus secondary sources. I believe anyone who claims that the longstanding concensus at Wikipedia was to hold the use of primary and secondary sources to the same standards is simply wrong.
My intention in my edit was merely to make the first paragraph (more general) more consistent with the second paragraph (which was more specific). A secondary intention was to reorganize the contents so the two paragraphs disucssed the use of primary sources first, and secondary sources second (since we defined them in that order). I want to be clear about my intentions in the hope that even those editors who disagree with me will accept the edit in good faith, not as an attempt to change the policy.
After reading much talk, I came to understand why some people felt my edit was too harsh. Following Gerry Ashton´s constructive suggestion, I added the word predominantly, so it is now clear that I did not mean to suggest an exclusive ban on primary sources (to repeat: my view has never changed; they are acceptable when they comply with the two conditions in the second paragraph, which has long been part of the policy consensus). Wjhonson independently made an edit or two that I consider improvements.
I sincerely believe we can reach an acceptable compromise. I think my reordering the material so as to discuss primary sources and then secondary sources makes sense. I also continue to insist that the the both paragraphs must be consistent, and that our core policy with regards to primary sources is set in the two conditions, exemplified by apple pie and current events. To anyone here who thinks that my wording can still be misread as prohibiting any use of primary sources I want you to know that this is not my intention and I will gladly work towards a compromise. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:01, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict with Slim) Okay, I want to be constructive here. Wjhonson, I suggest - in good fath - that you go through featured and former featured articles (since presumably no one would dispute their compliance with policy) and find one or two more examples of use of primary sources. We can then add the examples to that of apple pie and current events. Also, by picking one or two examples from featured or formerly featured articles, we can ask what principles guided the use of primary sources and perhaps add to the conditions under which primary sources can be used. How do you and others feel about this as a method? Can we agree that if primary sources have been used in featured articles, then the principles guiding their usage in those cases can guide us here? Also, Wjhonson, I am trying to be open to your concern. Do you understand my concern? Slrubenstein | Talk 21:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
That sounds reasonable. Okay, Slim and I agree. Do you, WJhonston? If so, we may have the basis for a working solution to this conflict, and a way to improve the section. I still hope you understand my concerns or take them in the same good faith I take yours. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:53, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
which is sourced from Francesco Guicciardini's History of Italy (which was written at the time, and which would, in my opinion, be termed a primary, rather than secondary, source). Because this (the underlying statement, not its presence in Guicciardini's account) is obviously not something "easily verifiable by any reasonable adult", it would have been disallowed—even though Guicciardini's work is generally considered by historians to be a very accurate one. Kirill Lokshin 22:37, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Clement VII, who had meanwhile become convinced that the Emperor's growing power was a threat to his own position in Italy, sent envoys to Francis and Henry VIII suggesting an alliance against Charles.
I appreicate O^O´s latest comments, and the constructive tone, very much. Maybe we do disagree on one issue: as Felonious Monk says, I believe, sincerely, that for a very long time Wikipedia has favored secondary sources over primary sources, and rightly so. Based on the above remarks, I think after all there may be no conflict between O^O and myself. But, with all due respect, I think O^O´s proposal is just unnecessary. I think the current policy and my edit still work fine. To explain why I will address the other criticisms.
The second area of dispute seems mostly to be with Wjhonson, who characterizes my position as "suggesting, that in an article on King Alfred we cannot quite the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle which is a primary source." Wjhonson, I implore you to believe me when I tell you: you are wrong, this is not what I am saying, nor is it in the text I have written. The text I wrote states, primary sources can be used if it "makes no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, or evaluative claims." Surely this would be the case with the Alnglo-Saxon Chronicle, surely my edit allows for one to use the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. What you consider a narrow exception is indeed a wide one that fully accommodates your objection and Kirill Lokshin´s. So it seems to me, we have no dispute.
Gerry Ashton is correct that my main change was to remove the claim that primary sources are equally encouraged as secondary sources. The reason I did so is that that setntence contradicted the following paragraph which contained the actual policy. I feel that the paragraph introducing the policy in general terms has to be consistent with the actual policy. That is why I made my edit. The actual policy to which I refer, "where an article (1) makes only uncontentious descriptive claims the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable adult without specialist knowledge, and (2) makes no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, or evaluative claims, a Wikipedia article may be based entirely or primarily on primary sources (examples would include apple pie or current events)," has been our consensus policy for a very long time. My edit does nothing to change it. Indeed, it sounds like some want to change it. But let us be clear: I am not changing the policy, I am maintaining it. Should we change the policy? Given that it currently accommodates the examples Kirill and Wjhonson came up with, I believe, yes, we should keep it. It is a good policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying this, but I still think you are wrong. YOU are not using the text to make your own evaluative claim (THAT would be original research), you are merely quoting a source that itself makes an evaluative claim. This simply does not violate NOR. NOR does not (now, yesterday, the day before, last week, last year) prohibit us from using primary sources that themselves make interpretive, analytical, synthetic, evaluative, or explanatory claims. It only prohibits us from using primary sources to make OUR OWN interpretive, analytical, synthetic, evaluative, or explanatory claim. If this is unclear, then it was unclear before my edit. And if it is unclear I agree we should clarify it. But my edit did not make things less clear, at worst, it left this unclear point unchanged. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:45, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The only thing I changed was to say that we encourage using secondary sources more than primary sources. I did not make any change prphibiting the use of primary sources. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Wjhonson, at this point I have to ask, are you responding to anyone who has posted on this talk page? You certainly are not responding to anything I wrote. What constitutes a primary and a secondary source is stated in the policy and the definitions of these terms have been stable for years and are clear policy. Nothink I have done in the past few days has altered that in one bit. PLEASE explain why you write, "But to remove "primary" altogether from the above allowable sources is not fine" given that NO ONE has removed "primary" altogether from the allowable sources. Since you are suggesting someone has done this, when no one has, it seems like you are acting in bad faith. Yet I want to understand you - what exactly are you talking about? Slrubenstein | Talk 16:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Are you criticizing yourself now? First, you write that you are not allowed to use the Anglo-Saxon Chronical because it does not fit the criteria allowing use of primary sources (using a primary source to evaluate). Then I said, you ARE allowed to use it because the source presents Abbott´s evaluation, not yours. Now you say that now, it should not be allowed because spomehow you are reinstating a judgement in a primary source? Look, if you do not want to use the Anglo Saxon Chronical, don´t. But our policy allows someone to use it, and I have explained why. Your attempt to exclude using it just seems bizarre to me. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with both Krill and Wjhonson on this. Perhaps this specific clause needs to be rewritten. This is what the policy means: that the source that presents the claim must be verifiable, not that the claim itself is verifiable. If the Anglo Saxon Chronical states that Abbott states that someone was the spawn of satan, our NPOR and Verifiability and NPOV policies all agree that the issue is NOT whether x really was the spawn of satan and that any reader must be able to verify that x was the spawn of Satan, but rather that the Anglo Saxon Chronical states that Abott believed x to be the spawn of satan, and any reader can be able to verify that this is indeed what the Anglo Saxon Chronical states. This is our policy. This is what the clause in question is meant to communicate. If the clause in question is not communicateing this effectively, lets have proposals to edit it to make it clearer. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I wholely endorse this proposed change. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:54, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Wjhonson writes, "state that a primary source must not be evaluative to me says that we cannot quote certain statements." Again, I am baffled as to why he says this, because the policy does not say this and no one on this talk page has said this, and indeed I wrote yesterday explaining to Wjhonson that the policy does not state this. I will repeat what I wrote at 23:45 UTC yesterday:
In other words, if the AS Chronical itself makes an interpretive or analytical claim, well, we can then argue whether it is a primary or secondary source but EITHER WAY it is permitted and indeed editors are encouraged to add it. Get it, WJhonson? Please reread what I just wrote again. I am saying it is permitted. It is permitted. Do you get it? Stop suggesting it is prohibited. Here is what is prohibited: Let us say I have a host of primary sources that say Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation and that he won the Civil War. I can add these primary sources to the article (according to our policy last week and according to my edit). However, after citing these sources, an editor cannot then go on to add in his or her own words "Thus, Lincoln was one of the greatest presidents of the United States." THIS is the violation of NOR. THIS is using primary sources to make the editor´s own evaluation. Now, what if a verifiable source claims that Lincoln was the greatest president who ever lived? THIS source too can be added as long as it is verifiable meaning a reader of the article can find the source. Adding this statement, properly cited to a verifiable source DOES NOT VIOLATE NOR. Not now, not yesterday, not after my edit, not before my edit. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 |
Okay, I firmly disagree with those editors who claim that prior to my edit a couple of days ago, Wikipedia treated primary and secondary sources equaly. My position is that the paragraph that ests two conditions for the use of primary sources marks a significant and major difference in our standards for using primary versus secondary sources. I believe anyone who claims that the longstanding concensus at Wikipedia was to hold the use of primary and secondary sources to the same standards is simply wrong.
My intention in my edit was merely to make the first paragraph (more general) more consistent with the second paragraph (which was more specific). A secondary intention was to reorganize the contents so the two paragraphs disucssed the use of primary sources first, and secondary sources second (since we defined them in that order). I want to be clear about my intentions in the hope that even those editors who disagree with me will accept the edit in good faith, not as an attempt to change the policy.
After reading much talk, I came to understand why some people felt my edit was too harsh. Following Gerry Ashton´s constructive suggestion, I added the word predominantly, so it is now clear that I did not mean to suggest an exclusive ban on primary sources (to repeat: my view has never changed; they are acceptable when they comply with the two conditions in the second paragraph, which has long been part of the policy consensus). Wjhonson independently made an edit or two that I consider improvements.
I sincerely believe we can reach an acceptable compromise. I think my reordering the material so as to discuss primary sources and then secondary sources makes sense. I also continue to insist that the the both paragraphs must be consistent, and that our core policy with regards to primary sources is set in the two conditions, exemplified by apple pie and current events. To anyone here who thinks that my wording can still be misread as prohibiting any use of primary sources I want you to know that this is not my intention and I will gladly work towards a compromise. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:01, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
(edit conflict with Slim) Okay, I want to be constructive here. Wjhonson, I suggest - in good fath - that you go through featured and former featured articles (since presumably no one would dispute their compliance with policy) and find one or two more examples of use of primary sources. We can then add the examples to that of apple pie and current events. Also, by picking one or two examples from featured or formerly featured articles, we can ask what principles guided the use of primary sources and perhaps add to the conditions under which primary sources can be used. How do you and others feel about this as a method? Can we agree that if primary sources have been used in featured articles, then the principles guiding their usage in those cases can guide us here? Also, Wjhonson, I am trying to be open to your concern. Do you understand my concern? Slrubenstein | Talk 21:40, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
That sounds reasonable. Okay, Slim and I agree. Do you, WJhonston? If so, we may have the basis for a working solution to this conflict, and a way to improve the section. I still hope you understand my concerns or take them in the same good faith I take yours. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:53, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
which is sourced from Francesco Guicciardini's History of Italy (which was written at the time, and which would, in my opinion, be termed a primary, rather than secondary, source). Because this (the underlying statement, not its presence in Guicciardini's account) is obviously not something "easily verifiable by any reasonable adult", it would have been disallowed—even though Guicciardini's work is generally considered by historians to be a very accurate one. Kirill Lokshin 22:37, 23 August 2006 (UTC)Clement VII, who had meanwhile become convinced that the Emperor's growing power was a threat to his own position in Italy, sent envoys to Francis and Henry VIII suggesting an alliance against Charles.
I appreicate O^O´s latest comments, and the constructive tone, very much. Maybe we do disagree on one issue: as Felonious Monk says, I believe, sincerely, that for a very long time Wikipedia has favored secondary sources over primary sources, and rightly so. Based on the above remarks, I think after all there may be no conflict between O^O and myself. But, with all due respect, I think O^O´s proposal is just unnecessary. I think the current policy and my edit still work fine. To explain why I will address the other criticisms.
The second area of dispute seems mostly to be with Wjhonson, who characterizes my position as "suggesting, that in an article on King Alfred we cannot quite the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle which is a primary source." Wjhonson, I implore you to believe me when I tell you: you are wrong, this is not what I am saying, nor is it in the text I have written. The text I wrote states, primary sources can be used if it "makes no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, or evaluative claims." Surely this would be the case with the Alnglo-Saxon Chronicle, surely my edit allows for one to use the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle. What you consider a narrow exception is indeed a wide one that fully accommodates your objection and Kirill Lokshin´s. So it seems to me, we have no dispute.
Gerry Ashton is correct that my main change was to remove the claim that primary sources are equally encouraged as secondary sources. The reason I did so is that that setntence contradicted the following paragraph which contained the actual policy. I feel that the paragraph introducing the policy in general terms has to be consistent with the actual policy. That is why I made my edit. The actual policy to which I refer, "where an article (1) makes only uncontentious descriptive claims the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable adult without specialist knowledge, and (2) makes no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, or evaluative claims, a Wikipedia article may be based entirely or primarily on primary sources (examples would include apple pie or current events)," has been our consensus policy for a very long time. My edit does nothing to change it. Indeed, it sounds like some want to change it. But let us be clear: I am not changing the policy, I am maintaining it. Should we change the policy? Given that it currently accommodates the examples Kirill and Wjhonson came up with, I believe, yes, we should keep it. It is a good policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:28, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for clarifying this, but I still think you are wrong. YOU are not using the text to make your own evaluative claim (THAT would be original research), you are merely quoting a source that itself makes an evaluative claim. This simply does not violate NOR. NOR does not (now, yesterday, the day before, last week, last year) prohibit us from using primary sources that themselves make interpretive, analytical, synthetic, evaluative, or explanatory claims. It only prohibits us from using primary sources to make OUR OWN interpretive, analytical, synthetic, evaluative, or explanatory claim. If this is unclear, then it was unclear before my edit. And if it is unclear I agree we should clarify it. But my edit did not make things less clear, at worst, it left this unclear point unchanged. Slrubenstein | Talk 23:45, 23 August 2006 (UTC)
The only thing I changed was to say that we encourage using secondary sources more than primary sources. I did not make any change prphibiting the use of primary sources. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Wjhonson, at this point I have to ask, are you responding to anyone who has posted on this talk page? You certainly are not responding to anything I wrote. What constitutes a primary and a secondary source is stated in the policy and the definitions of these terms have been stable for years and are clear policy. Nothink I have done in the past few days has altered that in one bit. PLEASE explain why you write, "But to remove "primary" altogether from the above allowable sources is not fine" given that NO ONE has removed "primary" altogether from the allowable sources. Since you are suggesting someone has done this, when no one has, it seems like you are acting in bad faith. Yet I want to understand you - what exactly are you talking about? Slrubenstein | Talk 16:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Are you criticizing yourself now? First, you write that you are not allowed to use the Anglo-Saxon Chronical because it does not fit the criteria allowing use of primary sources (using a primary source to evaluate). Then I said, you ARE allowed to use it because the source presents Abbott´s evaluation, not yours. Now you say that now, it should not be allowed because spomehow you are reinstating a judgement in a primary source? Look, if you do not want to use the Anglo Saxon Chronical, don´t. But our policy allows someone to use it, and I have explained why. Your attempt to exclude using it just seems bizarre to me. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I agree with both Krill and Wjhonson on this. Perhaps this specific clause needs to be rewritten. This is what the policy means: that the source that presents the claim must be verifiable, not that the claim itself is verifiable. If the Anglo Saxon Chronical states that Abbott states that someone was the spawn of satan, our NPOR and Verifiability and NPOV policies all agree that the issue is NOT whether x really was the spawn of satan and that any reader must be able to verify that x was the spawn of Satan, but rather that the Anglo Saxon Chronical states that Abott believed x to be the spawn of satan, and any reader can be able to verify that this is indeed what the Anglo Saxon Chronical states. This is our policy. This is what the clause in question is meant to communicate. If the clause in question is not communicateing this effectively, lets have proposals to edit it to make it clearer. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
I wholely endorse this proposed change. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:54, 24 August 2006 (UTC)
Wjhonson writes, "state that a primary source must not be evaluative to me says that we cannot quote certain statements." Again, I am baffled as to why he says this, because the policy does not say this and no one on this talk page has said this, and indeed I wrote yesterday explaining to Wjhonson that the policy does not state this. I will repeat what I wrote at 23:45 UTC yesterday:
In other words, if the AS Chronical itself makes an interpretive or analytical claim, well, we can then argue whether it is a primary or secondary source but EITHER WAY it is permitted and indeed editors are encouraged to add it. Get it, WJhonson? Please reread what I just wrote again. I am saying it is permitted. It is permitted. Do you get it? Stop suggesting it is prohibited. Here is what is prohibited: Let us say I have a host of primary sources that say Lincoln signed the Emancipation Proclamation and that he won the Civil War. I can add these primary sources to the article (according to our policy last week and according to my edit). However, after citing these sources, an editor cannot then go on to add in his or her own words "Thus, Lincoln was one of the greatest presidents of the United States." THIS is the violation of NOR. THIS is using primary sources to make the editor´s own evaluation. Now, what if a verifiable source claims that Lincoln was the greatest president who ever lived? THIS source too can be added as long as it is verifiable meaning a reader of the article can find the source. Adding this statement, properly cited to a verifiable source DOES NOT VIOLATE NOR. Not now, not yesterday, not after my edit, not before my edit. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:20, 24 August 2006 (UTC)