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If I write a statement "The Pope has white hair" would this be original research? (assuming I could find no academic sources saying this.)
What I'm really interested in is how obvious something has to be before you can say it, without slapping a {{ fact}} template on it. Mike Young 18:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Agreed with wbfergus in general. WP:VER anticipates that many statements in articles will go unchallenged. If it's a significant enough issue that someone challenges it, sourcing would, in general, be needed to support the statement. Alternately, a source such as a photo might be adequate to verify such a statement. Also, there is a difference between editorial decisionmaking, original language (or original wording of the text), and original synthesis of conclusions or concepts that are not part of the sytheses or concepts already available in the sources. This concept is expressed by WP:NOR. ... Kenosis 19:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Can we avoid splitting hairs, please? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:07, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
The absence of consensus for PSTS reflected several known problems.
One was defining the categories, and there was broad agreement that this was a problem, as well as various ad-hoc fixes. I pointed out above that many ancient histories derive from even older histories. If we interpret PSTS literally, most ancient histories are secondary sources and most scientific papers are primary sources.
Another involved primary sources, even first-party primary sources, which include their own interpretive claims. These should, of course, be used very carefully. Suppose we have one secondary source which states "all X believe Y," we have several secondary sources which state "A was an X" and we have a primary source by A which states "I believe ~Y and I do not believe Y." In this case, as I've argued before, it shouldn't be OR to state that at least one X did not believe Y. (It may be undue weight, but even then noting some instead of all would be appropriate). To my mind, second-guessing the sources by stating that A was not an X, or that A really believed Y, is much more likely to involve OR. Jacob Haller 00:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Simply as a point of interest and definitely NOT as an argument for or against the changes that we are contemplating... I checked out the Wikipedia articles on Primary source, Secondary source and Tertiary source. They primarily talk about the way historians use these terms... and what struck me was that the way they are defined in those aricles matched the way they are currently defined here. This leads me to conclude that the sources section was definitely written by historians. Those of you from other disciplines may want to edit those articles to reflect how you use the terms. Blueboar 13:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Primary sources in history often include interpretations. Jacob Haller 16:18, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Diaries, laboratory notes, interviews, tabulated results of questionnaires etc. also often contain interpretations. The policy should not sound as if it's excluding the use of such interpretations. I think it needs some editing to make that clearer. (Some such might be excluded by Verifiability as not a sufficiently reliable source for that type of statement, but not by NOR.)
An (unrelated) suggested edit: change "Some secondary materials, for example many scientific publications, often include original data and are thus also primary materials." to something like "Some sources, for example many scientific publications, often include original data and thus include both primary and secondary materials." Otherwise, you're just using the word "material" to mean "source" and not getting anywhere. However, these suggestion should not hold up page unprotection. -- Coppertwig 16:43, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
We appear to agree to not use the word "source". Can we also agree to not use the words "primary" and "secondary"? People here admit that wikipedia is making up its own definition and I contend that even with a definition we make up, there is confusion and misunderstanding over the use of these words. Further, the words have no inherent meaning that makes clear what we are trying to say, as it is the use and not the material that being distinguished, and all material is primary if used as evidence of what it itself says and as secondary if used as evidence of the processes or facts that caused its existence. Whatever you wish to say about Wikipedia's OR policy, if you say it without using the words "primary" and "secondary" you will be communicating better. Please give it a try. WAS 4.250 20:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Recent history that may have been missed is that there has been problem with exactly what the definition of primary and secondary sources actually are, especially when the language still strongly favoured secondary sources (as it did until quite recently, I don't know from when, but definitely a number of months ago). One of the reasons to remove the distinction is that there have been problems with the definition, and the distinction is not essential to identifying, describing, or prohibiting original research.
It should also be noted that, however long something has been a certain way, that age or stability does not automatically make it either good or correct. I'm sure there are articles on wikipedia with factual errors that have been stable (in terms of the error) for quite some time. The fact that a policy gets more attention is offset by the inertia in editing policy.
Problems were raised, challenged, demonstrated, established to the satisfaction of those involved at the time, some of whom were very skeptical. Asking the parties to demonstrate and establish them again begins to feel like obstructionism, although I am sure that that is not the intent. Can good faith and, perhaps, competence be assumed? The question to address then becomes whether the new suggestions provide for a correct, consensus-bearing, current-practice-describing NOR policy. If a particular proposal doesn't, then address how it doesn't specifically and help people to make it do so, without saying "I don't believe you about the problem that led to this".
Assume good faith that the editors who've worked on this aren't somehow trying to allow original research. This isn't a fight or a battle, it's a discussion to reach a consensus solution to certain problems and improve the policies that help us to write a good encyclopedia. SamBC( talk) 18:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems that a lot of the problems with the proposed removal of PSTS info aren't entirely adamant that it must be in NOR, but that it must be somewhere. Can people accept that there may be somewhere more suitable for it? The distinction between these types of sources, and between involved-party and third-party sources, and so on and so forth, touch all three of the major core policies ( WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR here), so why not locate the definitions centrally and refer to them from each policy. If the reason for each policy to refer to them is a matter of guidance, rather than of rules, then why not put that guidance centrally as well? Those two suggestions are seperate - to me, the first (centralise definitions) seems straightforwardly sensible, while the latter (centralise the classification-related guidance) is a vague thought in my mind.
There is what's now a rather poor-shape essay at Wikipedia:Classification of sources that was actually created originally as a proposal for roughly this purpose. How would people feel about going back to this and working on it in concert with the proposal to change NOR? Those who've raised these objections would be more than welcome to join in and make sure that it says what needs to be said. If that's in place as a related proposal, it may well smooth the proposals here. SamBC( talk) 18:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The "new opposition" referred to at the top of this section is not what's "new" at the present. What's "new" here are these proposals to significantly change WP:NOR, developed within the past month or so by three or four users on this one talk page. Let's at least get that much in perspective, please. And the resistance to such significant changes is already substantially evidenced in the present fact that this project page needed to be locked. ... Kenosis 18:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
jossi and Odd Nature, please explain in detail what you object to in the proposal, perhaps giving examples. Philip Baird Shearer said that we can summarize a tertiary source but we can't summarize a primary source such as a treaty. That may be something that's said by the source-typing policy but not by the new proposal. I did some thinking about that. (As an aside, I'm not sure we absolutely can't summarize a treaty. I think we may be able to say things like "this section talks about genocide", if that word appears, or "The treaty consists of 9 sections which are titled ...") I think it's not the type of the source that prevents us from summarizing it; rather it's the amount of material that comments on the source. The more reliable-source material there is (or is likely to be in future, for example for a treaty that's just been written) that interprets and comments on a source, the less we can summarize it ourselves as opposed to quoting directly. This could apply even to an encyclopedia article. The wording of a signed article could become controversial as evidence of the state of mind of the author if the author is charged with a crime, for example. It would then become un-Wikipedian to summarize what it says ourselves rather than relying on commentary about it. Quoting would still be fine. So, maybe some tweaking of the wording of the proposal is needed. -- Coppertwig 22:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Churchill once said of Chamberlain "he viewed world affairs through the wrong end of a municipal drain-pipe." I think that these debates are very constructive because we all tend to edit in certain areas and the effects of these sections in policies vary on different types of articles. These conversations improve our understanding of the issues by presenting the information in a broader context and it is often the unforeseen consequences of these policies and changes to them that cause the most problems for people.
BTW, An example of where a primary source is also a very good secondary source is the European Court of Human Rights - Jorgic v. Germany Judgment, because it contains a very good summary of other different international courts analysis of whether ethnic cleansing is genocide. -- Philip Baird Shearer 21:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
The definitions of PSTS are not critical to NOR because they are not used outside of the PSTS section. I have rewritten that section without using the defined terms: primary, secondary, and tertiary:
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" the sources or use them in novel ways.
An article or section of an article that relies on a factual source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on factual sources should be careful to comply with both conditions.
I tried not to change too much, to remain as true as possible to the original. But once the sacred cows are banished, I think it shows this is not a good example of clarity. It needs lots more work, but we can't get that done until we get over the religious arguments over PSTS, and actually get down to the real work of editing. Dhaluza 01:30, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Just to pose a very simple example, illustrative of numerous real situations that have already occurred on the wiki: Take Aristotle's Metaphysics and the various interpretations thereof. A lot of "know-it-all's" in the world like to quote Aristotle and are frequently at odds with the range of scholoarly interpretations of Aristotle's voluminous works. Where does Aristotle's Metaphysics fit into this proposed schema? Is it a "factual source"? Or is it an "interpretive source"?. If Metaphysics is itself an interpretive source, why can't we just interpret the interpretations. Isn't it better to go right to the "horse's mouth" rather than some Ivory Tower interpretationist? .. Kenosis 01:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Here is another example, dropping classification of sources altogether, focusing on use only. I've dropped the examples for clarity of the example, but appropriate explanatory examples probably should be added to each section.
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" the sources or use them in novel ways. This policy places certain restrictions on the use of sources to preclude editors from including original research in Wikipedia articles.
Wikipedia does not bear witness to any fact. All statements of fact in articles must be supported by a previously published reliable source. Factual statements must be made with caution, because misstatement of facts is a common problem in Wikipedia articles. The facts should be presented so anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the cited source can verify that the related Wikipedia passage agrees with the source. Any interpretation of facts or evidence requires a reliable source for that interpretation. Wikipedia editors must be careful to not make statements of fact based on their own observations or evidence, unless they are also supported by reliable published sources.
An article or section of an article that makes a statement of fact should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors making statements of fact should be careful to comply with both conditions.
Wikipedia does not publish original thought. Using raw evidence or statements of fact to make generalizations or interpretive, analytical, or synthetic claims is original thought. Wikipedia editors must be careful not to include their original thoughts in Wikipedia articles, but must instead depend on reliable published sources to make these interpretive claims.
Some publications such as encyclopedias that sum up other sources are more reliable than others, and within those sources, some articles may be more reliable than others. For example, articles signed by experts in Encyclopaedia Britannica and encyclopedias of similar quality can be used for interpretation of facts and evidence. Unsigned articles may be less reliable, but they may be also be used for interpretation so long as the encyclopedia is a high quality one.
This is an example of how to describe NOR without resorting to the unnecessary distraction of source typing. It focuses specifically on the use of the sources, not the nature of those sources. It basically says the same things as PSTS (excluding the examples) without using the adjectives primary or secondary, or other replacements. It may not cover every point in this iteration, but could with minor revision. I think this is a much simpler, more understandable, and less confusing explanation of sourcing as it relates specifically to NOR.
Looks like I'm one of the first to wake up from a few hours of sleep. I'm starting the day by browing through the history pages of NOR. One of the first things I've noticed, is that any change to the policy has been met with fierce opposition, even changes that corrected obvious inaccuracies. One example is [ [1]]. This was a fairly obvious and simple correction, changing the policy wording from saying there were three other main content policies but only listing NPOV and V, so the editor changed it to simply say "others" instead of "three others". This was immediately reverted back to "The other three are Wikipedia:Neutral point of view (NPOV) and Wikipedia:Verifiability (V)." with the revert labeled as "Restore longstanding version, no discussion, no consensus for this"., basically accusing the first editor of making a change without any support. This was a rather childish example, the editor made a simple minor correction in good faith that corrected a glaringly obvious mistake, but it took another round of reverts to get paast just that one simple case. The edit comment was glaringly false as well, as a simple edit history check shows that typo didn't appear until earlier that same day (two hours earlier). That is hardly "longstanding".
I next noticed, spurred in part by a previous post of User:Minasbeede, that PSTS did not exist in this policy until this diff [ [2]] on Oct 23, 2006 (less than a year ago). The policy itself also didn't use the policy shortcut of WP:PSTS until June 22, 2007, so claims that this (PSTS) is long-standing policy are untrue. Before the edit by SlimVirgin on Oct 23rd, the "Sources" section only talked about primary and secondary sources, tertiary sources weren't mentioned. Just since Oct 23, 2006, there appears to have been almost 500 edits to this policy, though some (I have no idea how many) were vandalism and the subsequent reverts. So stating that this policy has been stable seem blatantly untrue as well. Simply going to the history and setting it to show 500 edits at a time, it is still less than a year ago at the previous 500th edit, so 500 edits in less than a year (about one and half edits per day to a policy), is not very stable, at least within the last year.
With these brief observations out of the way (only included to disprove statements of "stable" and "long-standing"), lets move on to what Wikipedia is at it's very basic core. I am not talking philosophically of what Wikipedia should be, or strive to be. I am talking that at it's very base, Wikipedia is simply a database, though one with a very good user interface (though a few small improvements could be made, more later).
Now, as anybody with more than just a tad more than rudimentary knowledge of databases knows, proper database design tries to limit the amount of redundant information and therefore redundant coding, for consistency and simplicity. This is not meant as derogatory in any way, just a statement of fact. I work everyday with many smart scientists that even after 12 years of usage, still can't grasp the concepts of proper database design. Anyway, let me try to go back to the insurance analogy.
Insurance companies write hundreds of thousands or more insurance polices each year. These are not all the same, but simply boiler-plated together for the customer. For example, a car policy, a business policy and a house policy will all contain a clause about "Acts of God". This clause, specifically the definition, is not included and defined in each type of policy. There is simple code in the program that tells it to also include the standard definition of "Acts of God" in each policy. The definition itself only exists once within the database, but that common definition is used by multiple "things" (policies). Databases use the same concept, primarily with what are sometimes called "List of values" (or select lists), though there are many more common usages as well. What this means, is that instead of defining something over and over and over, you simply define it once and then use that one definition over and over. In the long run, this makes maintenance much easier. When the definition changes, you make the one change in one place, and instantly everything that links to it begins to use the same standard definition again. You are not forced to search through the entire database for every occurrance to make the same change over and over again. So if some lawyer comes along to the insurance company and says "We need to add this extra definition of an act of God", they pull up that definition, make the change, and 'poof', all new policies instantly begin using the new definition. They do not have to go through all policies trying to see if that definition exists there and then changing it.
This is all we are proposing for this policy. Hopefully WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:BLP could see after implementation that it is easier and more consistent. However, before we can get there, there's an awful lot of work that needs to be done first, and we also have to take into account the concerns made by other editors, even if they do "over-exaggerate" some claims. So, trying to toss out ideas on how this 'could' work (to even stand the proverbial snowballs chance), this is what I see we need to do:
I'm may be missing something else up above, but that is how I see we have any chance of ever improving this. If there are people who will revert even obvious typographical errors just because it's a change or over-exaggerate their claims so others who don't bother to research the history will more easily fall in agreement behind them, then we need to come up with a step-by-step approach that clearly shows the benefits. About the only way to actually accomplish this, since no amount of explanations seem to get through to some people, will be with viable alternatives that they can easily see. To be fair though, it does help assuage their fears that won't remove something like PSTS now, and it's replacement home will be worked on. We all know full well how long that usually takes (years), and there has to be an established place for it, probably at a policy level. Including these in NPOV, V or BLP doesn't accomplish much even though those are already policies, as those really aren't logical places for this 'subject'. Either a major rewrite of RS, or the creation of something similar seems to be the only way, though I could be wrong.
Accomplishing this would take probably 3-6 months, depending on how long it takes to create the new 'centralized' home, and then addressing concerns brought up by other editors and the community in general. I really don't see how it could be accomplished any faster, but I suppose it could. Like some changes to this policy (and I'm sure others as well), there could easily be times when the bulk of 'objectors' are absent from Wikipedia or otherwise busy for awhile, and a change can be made and be present before most know what happened. But that is real back-door and I wouldn't want to be a party to it. I honestly think these proposed changes would be a great benefit to Wikipedia, making 'policies' easier to understand (especially for the newcomers) and more consistent in enforcement of policies. But, we also need to do it 'above board' and with viable alternatives availabable at each point in time or it will surely fail. wbfergus Talk 11:32, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
W.r.t. the history of the PSTS section, the assertions above by wbfergus are incorrect, erroneous by selective omission, or at the very least very misleading. Wbfergus says he looked into the history. He didn't notice that "Primary and secondary sources" has been part of this project page for over three years? I too have had a recent opportunity to quickly review the history of both the policy page and the talk page. The primary source/secondary source distinction has been in place well in excess of three years, and arose out of direct guidance from the WP founder. Some time later it became a discrete section called "Primary and secondary sources". What happened in October of 2006 was that it was expanded to "Primary, secondary and tertiary sources". This expansion from primary/secondary to PSTS explained a great deal, and it remained extremely stable for nearly a year, during which time it has served the community quite well. This is why it required little or no explicit argumentation about the existence of WP:PSTS on the talk page. ... Kenosis 14:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
(outdent)Okay, the Wikipedia definition of policy states "A policy is similar to a guideline, only more official and less likely to have exceptions. As with guidelines, amendments should generally be discussed on their talk pages, but are sometimes forked out if large in scope. One should not generally edit policy without seeking consensus first". This statement has appeared on that page since before the occasion I mentioned above, when an editor stated that another editor had made 24 edits to this policy without any discussion or concensus, aginst already established Wikipedia policy in effect at that time. Just on this point alone, it would seem to indicate that this was a back door attempt in clear violation of established Wikipedia policy and without any concensus. Claiming that nobody objected doesn't neccessarily mean that everybody inherently agreed, it could also mean (since it was never discussed or otherwise anounced), that most people simply didn't know about and therefore had no oppurtunity to object. I'm not saying this is the case, just that it appears so. I have to assume that these edits were made in good faith for the ultimate benefit of Wikipedia, though I find it hard to accept. wbfergus Talk 17:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
It has become obvious to me that we have three competing but overlapping groups here...
The proposal to replace PSTS with more NOR focussed language came out of a compromise between the first two groups. Essentially the compromise says: Remove PSTS from NOR, and deal with it elsewhere. The problem is that this compromise did not take into account the third group. They need to be included in the compromise.
The third group is not going to agree to anything that demotes or weakens PSTS. At the moment they see the proposal as doing just that. The third group has to feel confident that the concepts and basic language contained in PSTS are protected before they would agree to anything.
So... I think the only solution to this three way argument is make it a complete package... we need to hammer out a proposed PSTS policy/guideline page to go along with the proposed replacement section for NOR. Blueboar 15:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
There appears to be some obfuscation and misrepresentation going on here, possibly to satisfy some sort of narrow agenda. I suggest that what has served the community well for years, particularly years of growth and growing acceptance, should not be tossed aside by a tiny group of editors on some sort of personal mission. If there are a substantial number of editors in the 2nd and 3rd categories, then I agree; make sure that the PSTS situation is dealt with first and its continued existence in its present form or some even more explicit form guaranteed, then make whatever minor changes to format and organization that are required.-- Filll 15:22, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I've noted above that PSTS defines most ancient histories as secondary sources or mixed primary/secondary sources since they usually include older histories and only sometimes include eyewitness accounts, since they include the historians' own interpretations, and since they don't resemble the "examples of primary sources." Nonetheless, common practice, including common Wikipedia practice, regards these as primary sources, or groups ancient sources into their own category. (P.S. I think we can agree that the literal reading of PSTS which makes these secondary sources is not Wikipedia practice and therefore does not have consensus).
PSTS is basically concerned with describing the sources, their strengths, and their weaknesses. NOR is basically concerned with which claims in the sources can support which claims in the articles, in particular, avoiding improper synthesis. This means using factual claims to support the same factual claims and using interpretations to support the same interpretation. So NOR has to classify statements as factual or interpretive, and probably also note issues which make for unreliable statements in reliable sources, while PSTS has to classify sources as Primary, Secondary, or Tertiary, with some special cases. (P.S. Count me in groups 1 & 2. I initially supported keeping PSTS in a "self-contained" NOR policy, but I think the new proposals cover the NOR issues and mean we can move PSTS elsewhere; I now think PSTS would do much better on its own or with other source-classification policies). Jacob Haller 15:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
<undent> The proposal to make a complete package... hammering out a proposed PSTS policy/guideline page to go along with the proposed replacement section for NOR, looks welcome to me. What's needed with it is a FAQ showing the evidence for the concerns, for example the contexts in which definitions vary, and diffs of example of disputes over interpretation. We also need to consider carefully the policy implications of PSTS and of the proposal, both in this policy and in relation to other policies. There could be good use of a page covering both this and what exactly is intended by "third party", possibly with text brought in through transclusion as above. .. dave souza, talk 17:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
On the page Talk:Ebionites, the following statement was made, and I quote: "Citing two authors with divergent views in some areas is not OR nor synthesis. What matters is whether they are making the same claim in the specific area which they are cited about -- which in this instance they are". Is that statement in accord with wikipedia policy as per this page? John Carter 16:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
It unfortunately appears to be the case that WP:PSTS has recently been manhandled by too many various, unsynchronized edits in the past few months, and is in need of work. As I stated farther above, "Primary and secondary sources" has been a standard part of WP:NOR for some three-and-a-half years, with its roots in direct instruction from WP's founder. A couple years ago it became a discrete section of WP:NOR. In October 2006 it was changed to "Primary, secondary and tertiary sources", which solved many conceptual problems and gave an extra layer to the concept of "secondary sources" in the implementation of WP:NOR around the wiki. Nearly a year ago WP:PSTS read as can be seen in the version in late October 2006. Notice also how it still read pretty much the same in April 2007. In the interim a some "entropy", so to speak, has occurred. Note how it began to be worked over gradually, bit by bit, e.g., by 23 June 2007, with the example of the "Security Resolution". By the beginning of August 2007 it looked like this. Presently it looks like this. This section apparently only needs to be cleaned up and brought back to its earlier, more stable roots, not thrown out. ... Kenosis 17:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
By far, the worst statement at present is the bolded statement: "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published primary and secondary sources." This statement was originally added on 28 June 2007 in the midst of a brief flurry of edit warring by several users. It originally read: "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources." It was arguably an oversimplification of "secondary sources" from the very beginning of that bolded policy statement in late June, The statement, with the addition of "primary and..." to the sentence, has since become confusing and essentially meaningless. It's no wonder a number of people are more confused by PSTS than need be the case here. IMO, the statement should never have been added to begin with, or at an absolute minimum it should be set into better context. ... Kenosis 17:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
How about this:
What do people think? I'd like to add something to make it clear that if we are citing a secondary source and that source includes raw data, we can include the raw data as long as it is restricted to the context in which the authors of the secondary source (e.g. journal article) use it i.e. in the context of their own analysis/argument ... but I haven't figured out a concise way to say it... Slrubenstein | Talk 19:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
"What's currently missing from Slrubenstein's proposal for shortening PSTS is that WP is not permitted to be a publisher of original syntheses," - how can you say this? i address this explicitly! Slrubenstein | Talk 22:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Let's remember the point of all this explaining of source types... which is to say that Wikipedia should not be 1) a primary source of a fact or idea... or 2) an original secondary source in analyzing facts or ideas. IE facts and ideas should not originate on wikipedia. All else is fluff to help explain these two concepts. Blueboar 22:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
In case people don't have a "Watchlist" set for the policy page itself, it automatically was unprotected this morning by the 'bot, and two edits have taken place. Both covered an area that's been under discussion, but I don't remember seeing anything that asks for if people agreed or not.
The way I read the "unofficial" vote at the top of the page, it appears that there is concensus for that, so I will add it. If it turns out there is not concensus, then go ahead and revert. wbfergus Talk 13:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
As of yesterday, Blueboar's proposal read:
Citing Appropriate Source Materials (alternative suggested section title: Sticking to the Sources)
Within Wikipedia articles we will find statements of fact and statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion. It is important to cite appropriate sources to back those different types of statements. Statements of fact should be cited to reliable sources that contain that fact. Statements of fact should also match the context of the source for that fact. Statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion should be cited to reliable sources that contain the same interpretation, analysis or conclusion, often called secondary sources (see WP:PSTS). Collections of facts which tend to lead the reader to a certain interpretation should be supported not only by a reliable source for each fact, but also by a reliable source that contains the same interpretation.
Editors cannot include their own interpretations of previously-published facts, unless that interpretation is either 1) an obvious and non-controversial consequence of the facts or 2) can be attributed to a reliable source. Nor can editors expand on an author's interpretations of fact, unless that expanded interpretation is also found in a reliable source.
When there are a number of reliable sources that interpret a particular piece of material, we need to be especially careful not to insert or imply our own interpretation of the original material.
For example, that Franklin D. Roosevelt was born in Hyde Park, New York and that he became president of the United States are both verifiable facts that may be cited in a Wikipedia article. The dates of each event are easily verified, and it would be perfectly admissible to say that he "was born in Hyde Park, NY, and later became president of the United States" without finding a source that specifically uses the word "later", or otherwise explicitly compares the dates. However, any statement about the effect his birth place had on him or on his career would require separate citation, since such a statement would not an obvious or non-controversial consequence of these easily verified facts.
Support I think it summarizes NOR as cleanly as any of the alternatives. I hope that we can work out any remaining issues and add this to the policy by, say, the end of the year, regardless of how we handle PSTS. Jacob Haller 21:19, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Support - Let's add this and Srubenstein's context/history to the policy without deleting anything. Can we all agree on that? Let's get some kind of improvement into the policy. WAS 4.250 07:39, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Support with one modification. I agree with Dhaluza that the reference to WP:PSTS is unnecessary. I also think it's not accurate. An original analysis, conclusion, or interpretation is actually the primary source of that new analysis, conclusion, or interpretation. So I suggest we just delete the confusing parenthetical phrase "often called secondary sources (see WP:PSTS)." It doesn't add anything, and it's potentially confusing. Otherwise, I support. COGDEN 18:20, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Oppose this: "Editors cannot include their own interpretations of previously-published facts, unless that interpretation is either 1) an obvious and non-controversial consequence of the facts" which is a departure from the policy and would require far more support to fly than the number of editors currently involved in this discussion. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:25, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Using Appropriate Source Materials Appropriately
Wikipedia articles contain statements of fact, and statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion. It is important to cite appropriate sources in each case.
Editors cannot include their own interpretations of previously-published facts, unless that interpretation is either 1) an obvious and non-controversial consequence of the facts or 2) can be attributed to a reliable source. Editors can only expand on a source's interpretations of fact by citing additional reliable sources in an appropriate context.
When there are multiple reliable sources that interpret a particular concept differently, editors need to be especially careful to present all mainstream and significant minority views, and not develop a novel interpretation or reinterpretation of the original material. When the collection of facts support different interpretations, editors must present the relevant verifiable facts, and not selectively present facts that support one interpretation over another.
Apologies in advance if this seem shocking. I broke out the ax and chopped down excess wordiness. In the process I also changed a few things. The title is new. I broke the paragraph making two different points into bullets. I refocused the third statement on context rather than the slippery slope of tending to lead to... because I could see this being used to reinvigorate controversy over lists for example--instead, I added a sentence about cherry picking facts, which should address the same problem with less collateral damage. I expanded the example to tie it to the last paragraph as well. Feel free to compare and contrast this with the original proposal (I have thick skin). Dhaluza 10:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Likewise editors cannot expand on a source's interpretations of fact, except by citing additional reliable sources. I can see your troubling over that too. This has the potential to suggest synthesis is ok (there is a fact, there are some other facts, look I can join them together), and if additional sources are cited, then the interpretation depends on those so is not an issue. My instinct was simply to delete the second half of the sentence, but perhaps some wording is required to hammer home the point. It is also ambiguous for not saying what these additional citations are required for. Spenny 10:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I like this more than Blueboar's version, though I still have doubts about the Roosevelt example. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:25, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree much of this version, though I think Blueboar's version is more likely to achieve consensus. I have the same issue as with the other proposal, with the parenthetical "(also called secondary sources; see: WP:PSTS)". An analysis, interpretation, or conclusion is not called a "secondary source" (not by academics, anyway). If the analysis is original, it's actually the primary source of that analysis. We don't need this parenthetical, and it's potentially confusing.
I also have serious qualms about requiring "reliable sources for the context" in the OR article. Obviously, we want editors to provide context for quotations and facts, but that's mainly an WP:NPOV issue. Simply omitting context is not original research. It may be biased and deceptive if you don't cite other facts and information that should be included to provide the proper context, but it's not OR. Let's keep this policy focused on OR. Otherwise, this has the potential to cause trouble down the road. COGDEN 18:46, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
<undent> Again, editors cannot include their own interpretations of previously-published facts, but can only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge. .. dave souza, talk 21:40, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I already posted this suggestion in the middle of another thread, but the discussion following it skewed off onto other subjects, so I'm posting it in a new section so that (hopefully) the discussion here can focus on the suggestion itself.
Given the history of the section, and comments made by people on both sides of the debate here, it seems that the greatest (potential) value of the PSTS section is to explain what a tertiary source is, and explain that that's what wikipedia is supposed to be. This doesn't mean prohibiting primary sources, but perhaps indicating that they require greater caution. (every definition I've found - and linked during discussions above - of "tertiary source" says that they are based on primary and secondary sources, but mainly secondary ones). As such, I would suggest that the section be redrafted with this clear focus, as that should actually be less confusing and give better guidance to editors. The potential for moving the section to a new page to be referred from any policy that needs it is a seperate matter that, while I still support, is not an aspect of this suggestion. SamBC( talk) 13:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
(Unindent)I don't think there would be any major contention on this section, on the basis it is using a description of sources to describe the characteristics of an encyclopaedia. The issue is raised by trying to then reverse the logic (I am trying to think of the right word, is it an intransitive function where you can put a value in and get a predictable value out the other end, but you put the answer back through and you cannot get to the question?). Kenosis recent edit on the main page actually removes that logic and reverts to a general description of sourcing without an attempt to invert the logic, so it becomes far less contentious. Sticking with that thought, if the current description of sourcing as it stands only describes the features of a good encyclopaedia, then we may see that whilst interesting, it does not really underwrite the policing of policy. Spenny 18:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Okay, here's an example of transclusion User:Wbfergus/Sandbox/Transclusion example. I copied the "Sources section from the policy to create the page. I next created a sub-page called "Sources", and moved the PSTS sub-section into that sub-page, then I used the transclusion template on the first page to pull in the sub-page. Feel free to look at the edit text to see how it works.
Now, the advantage to this is that if we implement this on this policy, the "Sources" can be a sub-page and any discussion about these "Sources" can be discussed there, instead of here. This would help focus this talk page more to strictly NOR issues, and all of the "Sources" discussions happen somewhere else. When reading, it is transparent, so it appears that what is transcluded is hard-coded into the text they see on the screen, so there is no "loss of policy" or other weakening of this policy, it's merely moving one section that has generated an awful lot of discussion into another spot so thse discussions can happen elsewhere.
A disadvantage would be that it would need to be documented better what is happening and that "Sources" discussions happen on the sub-page. This isn't that big of a deal, but it's a step that needs to be done. (I won't sign the two questions below so that my sig doesn't interfere with the questions) wbfergus Talk 20:02, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Does anybody see any other advantages or disadvantages?
Would all parties involved agree that this would be an effective compromise to at least "clean-up" this talk page so that it is far easier to concentrate on solely NOR issues?
There is no rush to transclude. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:21, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Also note that we do not need RS to become a policy page, as the reliability of sources is already explored in WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV in their specific contexts. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:23, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
A large part of the confusion between source types seems to lie in contradictory understandings of the distinctions. For example, my main area of study has been in the humanities, which uses quite different definitions than the sciences, which use differing definitions than the "strict dictionary sense". It seems like a lot of the confusion and disagreement largely lies in those distinct understandings of the issue.
I will raise peer-reviewed publications for an example. In the humanities, peer-reviewed publications are considered secondary sources. In the sciences, they are generally considered primary sources (when putting forth a novel theory). In the strict dictionary sense, they are a mixture of primary and secondary, based on identifying raw data and novel claims as primary material. Within these individual fields and viewpoints, there are further variations as well. For example, a small part of the humanities considers any source drawn upon in research to be a primary source. Beyond all this confusion, the academic distinctions were created with the goal of creating and reviewing original research in mind.
In a broad sense, primary sources are those drawn upon as "raw" evidence, which are subjected to an intense review and analysis, particularly of their reliability and context. (In humanities, it's more "internal" to the work, peer-review generally judging the strength of argument. In the sciences, it's more "external", peer-review usually examining even the raw data collected with intense scrutiny.) In the same broad sense, secondary sources are the analysis and reviews of other contemporary authors, drawn upon to critique and counter those views or cited as sympathetic to the central thesis being forwarded.
So, in essence, I feel the conflicting definitions create a lot of confusion and conflict, and I have no particular ideas of how to "fix" this problem. A centralized definition is not a solution in and of itself, because such a thing has been present in policy, but the confusion and conflict continue. Perhaps we need to work with other terms, or maybe the language simply needs to be clarified and tightened. I also wonder if definitions created to promote and frame original research are appropriate for a policy that has the opposing intention. We may be working at cross-purposes to ourselves in continuing to use definitions created for the converse purpose as the policy they support. Just some thoughts. What are your thoughts in response? Vassyana 20:24, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Vassyana, in the humanities secondary sources such as peer-reviewed journal pulbications can be sources of data and thus be used as primary sources just as in the physical sciences. For example, a historian my publish material from an archive in an article, along with analysis and interpretation; another historian can use that material to promote another interpretation in another article. Someone studying medieval French literature can publish an article with a hithertoo unpublished poem, and analyze it - and another scholar can then draw on the article for the poem, and provide another interpretation. I do not see how this is different from an article on molecular genetics or chemistry providing data. The point is, data can be published independently or in the context of a peer-reviewed journal article, along with analysis or interpretation. This is true for the natural sciences and the humanities. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, to be fair, most peer-reviewed journal articles in the life or physical sciences never present raw data. What may look to you like raw data is often actually the rsult of several stages of processing. My point is simply this: in both works from the natural sciences and humanities - works that make an argument, that interpret or explain data - there is often data, in some form, that others can use to develop their own interpretations or explanations. I very strongly believe in making a distinction between data and arguments about data, and I think that the distinction between primary and secondary sources is useful, I am just saying that secondary sources can be sources of data, and this is true across academe. I am not sure about your second question - I do not understand the question. I think your analogy is false. In the United States there is a rule about how old people must be to drink; I think in all States it is now 21 years old. The difference between being twenty years old and twenty one years old is important for people in both groups, but for the first groups it means they must buy a fake ID to by booze, and for people in the second group it means they do not. for people who sell booze, it means they have to check IDs and know how to tell the difference. Knowing the difference has opposite effects for two groups. There are all sorts of distinctions in life that allow one group of people to do something, and prohibit others from doing the same thing. There is nothing unusual about this. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
This is much clearer, and I agree with everything you say. I think we just need to define terms clearly, and also emphasize that what is important is how material is being used - and for that reason, terms can apply to overlapping categories. Most peer-reviewed journal articles in the life and physical sciences do not limit themselves to raw-data and easily fall under our definition of "secondary source." The point is simply that secondary sources can also be sources of primary material (data), and I don't think it should be hard to make this clear in the article. It seems like people view primary/secondary/tertiary sources as mutually exclusive categories when I think they are either overlapping or even best understood by degrees of inclusion - tertiary sources refer to secondary sources and primary sources; secondary sources refer to primary sources ... at this point since we both agree this discussion should move to the following section. I recently posted a long comment calling attention to three distinctions we need to make in this discussion - perhaps you can comment, amplifying on or correcting what I wrote there. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I posted much of this before, but it wasn't here very long before being rotated to the archive pages. This is a survey of good sources defining primary and secondary sources. I don't think that this distinction needs to be in this policy page, and it overly complicates things, but here it is anyway, so that we can avoid making statements in the policy that disagree with common usage.
Definitions of a primary source:
Definitions of a secondary source:
There are, of course, sloppier definitions of secondary sources. Some say that a secondary source is something that comments on a primary source. And yes, that's very true: if something comments on a primary source or contains analysis about prior materials, it's definitely a secondary source. But if the commentary is original research, it's also a primary source as to that new idea. The terms are relative, and it all depends on what you are focusing on, and sources can be both primary and secondary. But why do we even need to even go there? The concepts of primary and secondary are confusing, and not always interpreted consistently. The ambiguity between primary and secondary sources is all very complicated, and this whole area really has no place in a policy article addressed to lay editors. This is stuff that PhDs debate about. How can we expect the average Wikipedia editor to understand and apply this? COGDEN 23:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The fact remains, nonetheless, that Wikipedia is not, as is being repetively argued on this page w.r.t. WP:NOR, required to mirror the external usages of its policy terms. I just pointed out another arena of policy where Wikipedia chooses its own terms, and it's not limited to WP:NFCC, but can be found in many aspects of policy such as WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. These issues too are by no means "semantic" or "rhetorical". Some of the recent rapid-fire arguments by opponents of WP:PSTS appear hell-bent on picking holes in every little thing, with one objective, and only one objective -- to change longstanding Wikipedia NOR policy. In my opinion, if anything ends up being a rhetorical game, it is this ongoing struggle by a few WP participants to pick holes in longstanding, very widely consensused policy upon which many thousands of users have come to rely for quite some time now, without a coherent replacement plan that participants can agree is an improvement. Presently, in this section, the argument is that it does not mirror external usages of PSTS. In other sections it's either one thing or another, or some combination of complaints, but always without a coherent plan that has potential to be widely agreed upon as a superior replacement. Well, the plain fact is that WP:PSTS is not exact, but WP's usage of PSTS comes damned close to that of library science usage and also to that of historiographers. Again, as I was attempting to point out, even if WP:PSTS did not closely mirror certain external usages of PSTS, WP is still within its rights to use its own standard. Note also that the entire policy WP:NOR does not mirror usages outside of Wikipedia, and has only vague analogues with other encyclopedia writing and journalistic writing. Not that I expect these observations to bring a quick end to these various attempts to pick holes in whatever appears like it can be argued. But I offer it just for your information. ... Kenosis 03:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
[Posted prior to the above]Again, though, the simple breakdown can be misleading if taken too strictly. For example, in the case of seminal works, whether fiction, non-fiction or scientific, the seminal books themselves can be primary sources. Examples I gave above include the works of Plato, Aristotle and Kant as primary sources. Similarly, to us in Wikipedia, the written theses of Einstein, Heisenberg and Bohr are primary sources, whether or not they drew on others' experiments. Homer's Odyssey and Iliad are examples of primary sources too, at least from the standpoint of Wikipedia editing. Thus, some flexibility and common sense will need to be exercised both here on the policy page and on the article pages. The key in the primary/secondary/tertiary source categorization is not necessarily which record is closest to the ground, so to speak. To be technical, or tendentious, one could argue, for instance, that only the first laboratory notes are primary sources, so by this measure by the time we get to writing in Wikipedia, the textbook source that mentions the experimental result may be a quinary (5th order), senary (6th order), or even farther down the chain of interpretation. For our purposes, generally speaking, the highly technical interpretation by the original developer(s) of a theory is a primary source, and the explanation of the summary results is a secondary source.
In a similar vein, Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason, a leading turn-of-the-19th-century philosophical treatise that gave us, among other things, the word phenomenon, is a primary source. Since it is a highly obscure work, scholarly interpretations of Kant's work are secondary sources on which we depend very heavily. Several times we've encountered editors who think they know Kant better than the scholars, and that's original research -- which is another example of why PSTS is part of the policy page. Thus, again, these are not hard and fast delineations in WP:PSTS, but they are critical in the implementation of the NOR policy. . ... Kenosis 15:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
<undent> The list of definitions is good, and would make a useful addition to the Wikipedia:Classification of sources essay which has the potential to be developed into the shared PSTS resource being suggested. As a non-academic I'm comfortable with them all and with the essential point in NOR at present that "Primary sources are documents or people very close to the situation being written about.", which means to me that the categorisation is relative to the subject of the article or section. Linking to articles as definitions is undesirable and I agree that it should not be done, which is why there's a place for these links to be replaced by the Classification of sources essay once it's developed into a guideline. Alternatively, the clarified classification could become part of WP:RS .. dave souza, talk 09:50, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Per discussion, I revised the introduction, taking into account coments and edits by other people active here.
I would not like to propose to change the following section, "What is excluded." I have three problems with this. first, it opens up not with a statement about what is excluded, but with the motivation behind the policy, so the title of the section and part of the contents are inconsistent. Second, the list of what is excluded seems ad hoc. Third, following sections explain in greater detail what is excluded and why.
Here is what I propose: since we are still debating primary versus secondary sources and what is actually included and excluded, I suggest that instead of calling this section "What is excluded" let's follow the lead of the first sentence and make it a section about what motivated the policy i.e. its origins. Such a section can discuss things that have traditionally been excluded, but in the context of the history of the proposal. I think this explanation of the history would be educational.
ALL I am proposing right now is to change the second section. I am not proposing anything about the third or following sections (on sources and synthesis).
here is what I propose:
Origins of the policy
The core policy of Wikipedia, NPOV is meant to provide a framework whereby editors with diverse, often conflicting, even opposing points of view can collaborate on the creation of an encyclopedia. It does so through the principle that while it is often hard for people to agree as to what is the truth, it is much easier for people to agree as to what they and others believe to be the truth. Therefore, Wikipedia does not use "truth" as a criteria for inclusion. Instead, it aims to account for different, notable views of the truth. First codified in February 2002, the objective of the NPOV policy is to produce an unbiased encyclopedia.
In the year that followed a good deal of conflict on article talk pages involved accusations that editors were violating NPOV, and it became clear that this policy, which provided a philosophical foundation for Wikipedia, needed to be supplemented. Wikipedians developed the concept of " verifiability" as a way of ensuring the accuracy of articles by encouraging editors to cite sources; this concept was established as a policy in August 2003. Verifiability was also promoted as a way to ensure that notable views would be represented, under the assumption that the most notable views were easiest to document with sources. Notability is especially imortant because while NPOV encourages editors to add alternative points of view to an article, it does not claim that all views are equal. Although NPOV does not claim that some views are more truthful than others, it does acknowledge that some views are held by more people than others. Accurately representing a view therefore also means explaining who holds the view and whether it is a majority or minority view.
Soon it became evident that editors who rejected a majority view would often marshall sources to argue that a minority view was superior to a majority view - or would even add sources in order to promote the editor's own view. Therefore, the NOR policy was established in 2003 to address problematic uses of sources. The original motivation for NOR was to prevent editors from introducing fringe views in science, especially physics - or from excluding verifiable views that, in the judgement of editors, were wrong . [1] It soon became clear that the policy should apply to any editor trying to introduce his or her own views into an article (and thus a way to distinguish Wikipedia from Everything 2). In its earliest form the policy singled out edits that:
for exclusion, and established that
as criteria for inclusion.
References
As before my attitude has been conservative, to try to preserve as much as the previous content as possible. I have attempted to make the layout more consistent and clearer. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Okay, this proposal has been sitting here for 9 days without any objections as to it's content. This proposal does nothing to change existing policy or any of the policy proposals. All it does is add a brief history of the policy and its evolution. I would like to move past this 'subject' so it can be archived, and this page can concentrate solely on more pressing issues. What is concensus here, so that I know whether or not I can ask an Admin to make this change? Thanks. wbfergus Talk 11:38, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
In case anybody misses the post near the bottom of this page, I have added the above "Origins" to the policy. If I was incorrect in there being a clear concensus on this, feel free to revert.
wbfergus Talk 13:20, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Good points Wikidemo. Thanks for those. After reading them I tend to agree, but I think the brief "history in a nutshell" may still be useful to the policy, if not actually part of the policy. Maybe either a sub-page or a separate article, so the concerns you raised are alleviated? wbfergus Talk 13:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Just to pick up on the protection issue. I think it is a little harsh assuming that the page has to be protected for the primary/secondary source debate now ensuing. This is not the same debate that there was edit warring over. I don't think anyone involved in the new debate has suggested radical surgery as yet, and even if they wished to, we could assert that it was a legitimate BRD manoeuvre. It would seem to me that the sensible approach would be to relax a bit: unprotect the page, apply the edit and see what unfolds. 'Tis the work of a moment to re-protect and revert (we could even agree that the rollback point is now if that would help). Spenny 15:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I just added some hidden comment warnings to the policy, at the top of the page, and again at the top of each section, so that it is plain and unmistakable that there is a proper way and procedure before edits get made. Though it is redundant, the reason I added it in each section is so somebody can't claim they just hit the section "edit" button and didn't see the warning. Since these are hidden comments, I don't think it changes the policy at all, and refers to another policy about making edits to policy pages. The appropriate policy page/section is WP:POLICY#Differences_between_policies.2C_guidelines.2C_essays.2C_etc., specifically where it states:
I do not think that a few editors that disagree with long-standing formulation of this policy, can held this page at ransom by adding a dispute tag. This is official policy of Wikipedia, until that time in which there is consensus to the contrary. If editors want to alert others about their concerns, they can post a message at the VP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
The onus is on those wanting to change things to demonstrate there is a problem, given that that the current policy has been in place for several years, and there is consensus to change. Throwing tags around willy-nilly on policy pages by a small group of malcontents with some personal agendas does not constitute some serious dispute or serious problem. What is going on here?-- Filll 19:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
The dispute tag marks the presence of a dispute - which is the absence of consensus - which is what we have here. The absence of a dispute tag should mark the absence of a dispute - which is the presence of consensus, either for the present version or for agreed-on changes. Removing the dispute tag falsely characterizes the section as being undisputed. Jacob Haller 20:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Tsk! Tsk! Go off to parents' evening, come home again to find all you naughty children have made this mess. I think you all should be sent to bed. It strikes me that however right or wrong the tag is, it is hardly worth warring over. Now say sorry and tidy your rooms.
Filll, please be careful about comments questioning peoples' motives. There has been an undercurrent of suggestion that those who want the policy explained in clearer terms are doing so out of malice which I thought was dissipating as people gained understanding of the issues; there are some people posting in superior terms about the qualities and qualifications required to participate here. For example, if I am right that some of this stuff is too complicated for your average editor either to be interested in or understand, then that group are unlikely to be participating in this current, if I may say, rather rarefied debate. But everyone deserves a slap on the wrist of common sense ;) Spenny 21:08, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
If there is a dispute, there is very likely to be an absence of consensus. Since {{ policy}} loudly asserts wide consensus, it is very useful to label the points where this is an exaggeration. As it happens, I think we need to have source typing in one of core policies (probably this one, since writing from primary sources is one quite common type of OR); nevertheless, I support the tag. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:01, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if anyone appreciates the irony of the edit war over the disputed tag at the top of the PSTS section resulting in a protect tag at the top of the page saying there is a dispute. It seems to me that this is a worse outcome, sort of a self-fulfilling (or self-defeating) prophesy. Anyway, I suggest we agree in advance that when the protect tag expires, we all follow the one revert rule to prevent escalating any future edit war. Regardless of whether you think you are right, or the other editor is wrong, once you make your change you have made your point on the record, and there is no reason to repeat it. Let someone else step up, and be patient. WP will hopefully be around for a long time, and there is no deadline. Dhaluza 00:19, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Can we agree to at least maybe have something along the lines of a [[ straw poll to determine which cources of action would be acceptable for further discussion, so that we aren't spending our limited "editing time" arguing about some point that may become readily apparent doesn't have a snowballs chance? Something along the lines of Wikipedia:Editing policy pages maybe, where 8 different 'subjects' or proposals are put to a non-binding vote. It should be clearly stated that the votes won't be used to determine yea or nay to the policy, just to try and determine if there is some common ground for further discussion. Good or bad idea? wbfergus Talk 18:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Frankly, the fact that I am advised to dig through months if not years of history and the dispute cannot be stated succinctly and clearly, tells me something smells bad here. So you are telling me all this hubub and sturm und drang here is because a few mean old editors want to stay with the old policy, when for years people have been clamoring to change it? Hmm...-- Filll 20:25, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
<undent>I went back and all I see is a confusing mess. I am not going to spend 10 hours digging through obfuscation and nonsense and contentious disputation to try to find the nugget of the argument, when people do not seem to be sufficiently motivated to state it here where we can read it. This looks suspiciously like you want to drive others away so you can do your dirty work in secret. Either make it clear, or forget it.-- Filll 21:39, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Filll and Orangemarlin, I really (honestly and truly) expected far better from the both you than snarky comments mischaracterizing the situation, assuming bad faith and disparaging more than a few intelligent and experienced editors. I'm seriously and frankly shocked. Vassyana 01:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
One problem with OrangeMarlin's Filll's and Jim62sch's holier-than-thou comments is are that this very subject we have debating here recently has been problematic in this policy since at least January 2005 (see further instructions below, I can't get it linked) the oldest talk page I can find. Numerous people have argued these points over and over, and it appears that they probably just got tired of being stonewalled by groups oppesoed to any change not of their own doing, and figured that their time could be more constructively used elsewhere and they would edit as they saw fit, regardless of what the exact wording of the policy actually was. If their edits got reverted or challenged later, oh well, there was still a good chance most of their edits to artciles would still stand. So, basically what I'm saying is it seems to kind of difficult to effectively articulate 30 archived talk pages (some are buried underneath the draft rewrites), into a one or two sentence position, as he would suggest. Conversely, I've yet to see any effective or coherent reasons to leave a problematic section that has generated much controversy and heated discussions over almost three years (just about 3 months shy).
wbfergus
Talk 10:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
This policy would be more clear if it said what needs to be said without using the words "primary" and "secondary". - WAS 4.250 22:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
<undent> I agree with Jim here. Holy cow! If this is a problem, then explain primary secondary and tertiary with some well-chosen examples. This is an unbelievable objection...wow.-- Filll 17:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
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Archive 20 | ← | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | Archive 24 | Archive 25 | Archive 26 | → | Archive 30 |
If I write a statement "The Pope has white hair" would this be original research? (assuming I could find no academic sources saying this.)
What I'm really interested in is how obvious something has to be before you can say it, without slapping a {{ fact}} template on it. Mike Young 18:31, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Agreed with wbfergus in general. WP:VER anticipates that many statements in articles will go unchallenged. If it's a significant enough issue that someone challenges it, sourcing would, in general, be needed to support the statement. Alternately, a source such as a photo might be adequate to verify such a statement. Also, there is a difference between editorial decisionmaking, original language (or original wording of the text), and original synthesis of conclusions or concepts that are not part of the sytheses or concepts already available in the sources. This concept is expressed by WP:NOR. ... Kenosis 19:02, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Can we avoid splitting hairs, please? ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:07, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
The absence of consensus for PSTS reflected several known problems.
One was defining the categories, and there was broad agreement that this was a problem, as well as various ad-hoc fixes. I pointed out above that many ancient histories derive from even older histories. If we interpret PSTS literally, most ancient histories are secondary sources and most scientific papers are primary sources.
Another involved primary sources, even first-party primary sources, which include their own interpretive claims. These should, of course, be used very carefully. Suppose we have one secondary source which states "all X believe Y," we have several secondary sources which state "A was an X" and we have a primary source by A which states "I believe ~Y and I do not believe Y." In this case, as I've argued before, it shouldn't be OR to state that at least one X did not believe Y. (It may be undue weight, but even then noting some instead of all would be appropriate). To my mind, second-guessing the sources by stating that A was not an X, or that A really believed Y, is much more likely to involve OR. Jacob Haller 00:43, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Simply as a point of interest and definitely NOT as an argument for or against the changes that we are contemplating... I checked out the Wikipedia articles on Primary source, Secondary source and Tertiary source. They primarily talk about the way historians use these terms... and what struck me was that the way they are defined in those aricles matched the way they are currently defined here. This leads me to conclude that the sources section was definitely written by historians. Those of you from other disciplines may want to edit those articles to reflect how you use the terms. Blueboar 13:50, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Primary sources in history often include interpretations. Jacob Haller 16:18, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Diaries, laboratory notes, interviews, tabulated results of questionnaires etc. also often contain interpretations. The policy should not sound as if it's excluding the use of such interpretations. I think it needs some editing to make that clearer. (Some such might be excluded by Verifiability as not a sufficiently reliable source for that type of statement, but not by NOR.)
An (unrelated) suggested edit: change "Some secondary materials, for example many scientific publications, often include original data and are thus also primary materials." to something like "Some sources, for example many scientific publications, often include original data and thus include both primary and secondary materials." Otherwise, you're just using the word "material" to mean "source" and not getting anywhere. However, these suggestion should not hold up page unprotection. -- Coppertwig 16:43, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
We appear to agree to not use the word "source". Can we also agree to not use the words "primary" and "secondary"? People here admit that wikipedia is making up its own definition and I contend that even with a definition we make up, there is confusion and misunderstanding over the use of these words. Further, the words have no inherent meaning that makes clear what we are trying to say, as it is the use and not the material that being distinguished, and all material is primary if used as evidence of what it itself says and as secondary if used as evidence of the processes or facts that caused its existence. Whatever you wish to say about Wikipedia's OR policy, if you say it without using the words "primary" and "secondary" you will be communicating better. Please give it a try. WAS 4.250 20:27, 17 September 2007 (UTC)
Recent history that may have been missed is that there has been problem with exactly what the definition of primary and secondary sources actually are, especially when the language still strongly favoured secondary sources (as it did until quite recently, I don't know from when, but definitely a number of months ago). One of the reasons to remove the distinction is that there have been problems with the definition, and the distinction is not essential to identifying, describing, or prohibiting original research.
It should also be noted that, however long something has been a certain way, that age or stability does not automatically make it either good or correct. I'm sure there are articles on wikipedia with factual errors that have been stable (in terms of the error) for quite some time. The fact that a policy gets more attention is offset by the inertia in editing policy.
Problems were raised, challenged, demonstrated, established to the satisfaction of those involved at the time, some of whom were very skeptical. Asking the parties to demonstrate and establish them again begins to feel like obstructionism, although I am sure that that is not the intent. Can good faith and, perhaps, competence be assumed? The question to address then becomes whether the new suggestions provide for a correct, consensus-bearing, current-practice-describing NOR policy. If a particular proposal doesn't, then address how it doesn't specifically and help people to make it do so, without saying "I don't believe you about the problem that led to this".
Assume good faith that the editors who've worked on this aren't somehow trying to allow original research. This isn't a fight or a battle, it's a discussion to reach a consensus solution to certain problems and improve the policies that help us to write a good encyclopedia. SamBC( talk) 18:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
It seems that a lot of the problems with the proposed removal of PSTS info aren't entirely adamant that it must be in NOR, but that it must be somewhere. Can people accept that there may be somewhere more suitable for it? The distinction between these types of sources, and between involved-party and third-party sources, and so on and so forth, touch all three of the major core policies ( WP:V, WP:NPOV, and WP:NOR here), so why not locate the definitions centrally and refer to them from each policy. If the reason for each policy to refer to them is a matter of guidance, rather than of rules, then why not put that guidance centrally as well? Those two suggestions are seperate - to me, the first (centralise definitions) seems straightforwardly sensible, while the latter (centralise the classification-related guidance) is a vague thought in my mind.
There is what's now a rather poor-shape essay at Wikipedia:Classification of sources that was actually created originally as a proposal for roughly this purpose. How would people feel about going back to this and working on it in concert with the proposal to change NOR? Those who've raised these objections would be more than welcome to join in and make sure that it says what needs to be said. If that's in place as a related proposal, it may well smooth the proposals here. SamBC( talk) 18:17, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
The "new opposition" referred to at the top of this section is not what's "new" at the present. What's "new" here are these proposals to significantly change WP:NOR, developed within the past month or so by three or four users on this one talk page. Let's at least get that much in perspective, please. And the resistance to such significant changes is already substantially evidenced in the present fact that this project page needed to be locked. ... Kenosis 18:57, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
jossi and Odd Nature, please explain in detail what you object to in the proposal, perhaps giving examples. Philip Baird Shearer said that we can summarize a tertiary source but we can't summarize a primary source such as a treaty. That may be something that's said by the source-typing policy but not by the new proposal. I did some thinking about that. (As an aside, I'm not sure we absolutely can't summarize a treaty. I think we may be able to say things like "this section talks about genocide", if that word appears, or "The treaty consists of 9 sections which are titled ...") I think it's not the type of the source that prevents us from summarizing it; rather it's the amount of material that comments on the source. The more reliable-source material there is (or is likely to be in future, for example for a treaty that's just been written) that interprets and comments on a source, the less we can summarize it ourselves as opposed to quoting directly. This could apply even to an encyclopedia article. The wording of a signed article could become controversial as evidence of the state of mind of the author if the author is charged with a crime, for example. It would then become un-Wikipedian to summarize what it says ourselves rather than relying on commentary about it. Quoting would still be fine. So, maybe some tweaking of the wording of the proposal is needed. -- Coppertwig 22:58, 21 September 2007 (UTC)
Churchill once said of Chamberlain "he viewed world affairs through the wrong end of a municipal drain-pipe." I think that these debates are very constructive because we all tend to edit in certain areas and the effects of these sections in policies vary on different types of articles. These conversations improve our understanding of the issues by presenting the information in a broader context and it is often the unforeseen consequences of these policies and changes to them that cause the most problems for people.
BTW, An example of where a primary source is also a very good secondary source is the European Court of Human Rights - Jorgic v. Germany Judgment, because it contains a very good summary of other different international courts analysis of whether ethnic cleansing is genocide. -- Philip Baird Shearer 21:49, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
The definitions of PSTS are not critical to NOR because they are not used outside of the PSTS section. I have rewritten that section without using the defined terms: primary, secondary, and tertiary:
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" the sources or use them in novel ways.
An article or section of an article that relies on a factual source should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on factual sources should be careful to comply with both conditions.
I tried not to change too much, to remain as true as possible to the original. But once the sacred cows are banished, I think it shows this is not a good example of clarity. It needs lots more work, but we can't get that done until we get over the religious arguments over PSTS, and actually get down to the real work of editing. Dhaluza 01:30, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Just to pose a very simple example, illustrative of numerous real situations that have already occurred on the wiki: Take Aristotle's Metaphysics and the various interpretations thereof. A lot of "know-it-all's" in the world like to quote Aristotle and are frequently at odds with the range of scholoarly interpretations of Aristotle's voluminous works. Where does Aristotle's Metaphysics fit into this proposed schema? Is it a "factual source"? Or is it an "interpretive source"?. If Metaphysics is itself an interpretive source, why can't we just interpret the interpretations. Isn't it better to go right to the "horse's mouth" rather than some Ivory Tower interpretationist? .. Kenosis 01:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Here is another example, dropping classification of sources altogether, focusing on use only. I've dropped the examples for clarity of the example, but appropriate explanatory examples probably should be added to each section.
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" the sources or use them in novel ways. This policy places certain restrictions on the use of sources to preclude editors from including original research in Wikipedia articles.
Wikipedia does not bear witness to any fact. All statements of fact in articles must be supported by a previously published reliable source. Factual statements must be made with caution, because misstatement of facts is a common problem in Wikipedia articles. The facts should be presented so anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the cited source can verify that the related Wikipedia passage agrees with the source. Any interpretation of facts or evidence requires a reliable source for that interpretation. Wikipedia editors must be careful to not make statements of fact based on their own observations or evidence, unless they are also supported by reliable published sources.
An article or section of an article that makes a statement of fact should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors making statements of fact should be careful to comply with both conditions.
Wikipedia does not publish original thought. Using raw evidence or statements of fact to make generalizations or interpretive, analytical, or synthetic claims is original thought. Wikipedia editors must be careful not to include their original thoughts in Wikipedia articles, but must instead depend on reliable published sources to make these interpretive claims.
Some publications such as encyclopedias that sum up other sources are more reliable than others, and within those sources, some articles may be more reliable than others. For example, articles signed by experts in Encyclopaedia Britannica and encyclopedias of similar quality can be used for interpretation of facts and evidence. Unsigned articles may be less reliable, but they may be also be used for interpretation so long as the encyclopedia is a high quality one.
This is an example of how to describe NOR without resorting to the unnecessary distraction of source typing. It focuses specifically on the use of the sources, not the nature of those sources. It basically says the same things as PSTS (excluding the examples) without using the adjectives primary or secondary, or other replacements. It may not cover every point in this iteration, but could with minor revision. I think this is a much simpler, more understandable, and less confusing explanation of sourcing as it relates specifically to NOR.
Looks like I'm one of the first to wake up from a few hours of sleep. I'm starting the day by browing through the history pages of NOR. One of the first things I've noticed, is that any change to the policy has been met with fierce opposition, even changes that corrected obvious inaccuracies. One example is [ [1]]. This was a fairly obvious and simple correction, changing the policy wording from saying there were three other main content policies but only listing NPOV and V, so the editor changed it to simply say "others" instead of "three others". This was immediately reverted back to "The other three are Wikipedia:Neutral point of view (NPOV) and Wikipedia:Verifiability (V)." with the revert labeled as "Restore longstanding version, no discussion, no consensus for this"., basically accusing the first editor of making a change without any support. This was a rather childish example, the editor made a simple minor correction in good faith that corrected a glaringly obvious mistake, but it took another round of reverts to get paast just that one simple case. The edit comment was glaringly false as well, as a simple edit history check shows that typo didn't appear until earlier that same day (two hours earlier). That is hardly "longstanding".
I next noticed, spurred in part by a previous post of User:Minasbeede, that PSTS did not exist in this policy until this diff [ [2]] on Oct 23, 2006 (less than a year ago). The policy itself also didn't use the policy shortcut of WP:PSTS until June 22, 2007, so claims that this (PSTS) is long-standing policy are untrue. Before the edit by SlimVirgin on Oct 23rd, the "Sources" section only talked about primary and secondary sources, tertiary sources weren't mentioned. Just since Oct 23, 2006, there appears to have been almost 500 edits to this policy, though some (I have no idea how many) were vandalism and the subsequent reverts. So stating that this policy has been stable seem blatantly untrue as well. Simply going to the history and setting it to show 500 edits at a time, it is still less than a year ago at the previous 500th edit, so 500 edits in less than a year (about one and half edits per day to a policy), is not very stable, at least within the last year.
With these brief observations out of the way (only included to disprove statements of "stable" and "long-standing"), lets move on to what Wikipedia is at it's very basic core. I am not talking philosophically of what Wikipedia should be, or strive to be. I am talking that at it's very base, Wikipedia is simply a database, though one with a very good user interface (though a few small improvements could be made, more later).
Now, as anybody with more than just a tad more than rudimentary knowledge of databases knows, proper database design tries to limit the amount of redundant information and therefore redundant coding, for consistency and simplicity. This is not meant as derogatory in any way, just a statement of fact. I work everyday with many smart scientists that even after 12 years of usage, still can't grasp the concepts of proper database design. Anyway, let me try to go back to the insurance analogy.
Insurance companies write hundreds of thousands or more insurance polices each year. These are not all the same, but simply boiler-plated together for the customer. For example, a car policy, a business policy and a house policy will all contain a clause about "Acts of God". This clause, specifically the definition, is not included and defined in each type of policy. There is simple code in the program that tells it to also include the standard definition of "Acts of God" in each policy. The definition itself only exists once within the database, but that common definition is used by multiple "things" (policies). Databases use the same concept, primarily with what are sometimes called "List of values" (or select lists), though there are many more common usages as well. What this means, is that instead of defining something over and over and over, you simply define it once and then use that one definition over and over. In the long run, this makes maintenance much easier. When the definition changes, you make the one change in one place, and instantly everything that links to it begins to use the same standard definition again. You are not forced to search through the entire database for every occurrance to make the same change over and over again. So if some lawyer comes along to the insurance company and says "We need to add this extra definition of an act of God", they pull up that definition, make the change, and 'poof', all new policies instantly begin using the new definition. They do not have to go through all policies trying to see if that definition exists there and then changing it.
This is all we are proposing for this policy. Hopefully WP:NPOV, WP:V, and WP:BLP could see after implementation that it is easier and more consistent. However, before we can get there, there's an awful lot of work that needs to be done first, and we also have to take into account the concerns made by other editors, even if they do "over-exaggerate" some claims. So, trying to toss out ideas on how this 'could' work (to even stand the proverbial snowballs chance), this is what I see we need to do:
I'm may be missing something else up above, but that is how I see we have any chance of ever improving this. If there are people who will revert even obvious typographical errors just because it's a change or over-exaggerate their claims so others who don't bother to research the history will more easily fall in agreement behind them, then we need to come up with a step-by-step approach that clearly shows the benefits. About the only way to actually accomplish this, since no amount of explanations seem to get through to some people, will be with viable alternatives that they can easily see. To be fair though, it does help assuage their fears that won't remove something like PSTS now, and it's replacement home will be worked on. We all know full well how long that usually takes (years), and there has to be an established place for it, probably at a policy level. Including these in NPOV, V or BLP doesn't accomplish much even though those are already policies, as those really aren't logical places for this 'subject'. Either a major rewrite of RS, or the creation of something similar seems to be the only way, though I could be wrong.
Accomplishing this would take probably 3-6 months, depending on how long it takes to create the new 'centralized' home, and then addressing concerns brought up by other editors and the community in general. I really don't see how it could be accomplished any faster, but I suppose it could. Like some changes to this policy (and I'm sure others as well), there could easily be times when the bulk of 'objectors' are absent from Wikipedia or otherwise busy for awhile, and a change can be made and be present before most know what happened. But that is real back-door and I wouldn't want to be a party to it. I honestly think these proposed changes would be a great benefit to Wikipedia, making 'policies' easier to understand (especially for the newcomers) and more consistent in enforcement of policies. But, we also need to do it 'above board' and with viable alternatives availabable at each point in time or it will surely fail. wbfergus Talk 11:32, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
W.r.t. the history of the PSTS section, the assertions above by wbfergus are incorrect, erroneous by selective omission, or at the very least very misleading. Wbfergus says he looked into the history. He didn't notice that "Primary and secondary sources" has been part of this project page for over three years? I too have had a recent opportunity to quickly review the history of both the policy page and the talk page. The primary source/secondary source distinction has been in place well in excess of three years, and arose out of direct guidance from the WP founder. Some time later it became a discrete section called "Primary and secondary sources". What happened in October of 2006 was that it was expanded to "Primary, secondary and tertiary sources". This expansion from primary/secondary to PSTS explained a great deal, and it remained extremely stable for nearly a year, during which time it has served the community quite well. This is why it required little or no explicit argumentation about the existence of WP:PSTS on the talk page. ... Kenosis 14:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
(outdent)Okay, the Wikipedia definition of policy states "A policy is similar to a guideline, only more official and less likely to have exceptions. As with guidelines, amendments should generally be discussed on their talk pages, but are sometimes forked out if large in scope. One should not generally edit policy without seeking consensus first". This statement has appeared on that page since before the occasion I mentioned above, when an editor stated that another editor had made 24 edits to this policy without any discussion or concensus, aginst already established Wikipedia policy in effect at that time. Just on this point alone, it would seem to indicate that this was a back door attempt in clear violation of established Wikipedia policy and without any concensus. Claiming that nobody objected doesn't neccessarily mean that everybody inherently agreed, it could also mean (since it was never discussed or otherwise anounced), that most people simply didn't know about and therefore had no oppurtunity to object. I'm not saying this is the case, just that it appears so. I have to assume that these edits were made in good faith for the ultimate benefit of Wikipedia, though I find it hard to accept. wbfergus Talk 17:18, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
It has become obvious to me that we have three competing but overlapping groups here...
The proposal to replace PSTS with more NOR focussed language came out of a compromise between the first two groups. Essentially the compromise says: Remove PSTS from NOR, and deal with it elsewhere. The problem is that this compromise did not take into account the third group. They need to be included in the compromise.
The third group is not going to agree to anything that demotes or weakens PSTS. At the moment they see the proposal as doing just that. The third group has to feel confident that the concepts and basic language contained in PSTS are protected before they would agree to anything.
So... I think the only solution to this three way argument is make it a complete package... we need to hammer out a proposed PSTS policy/guideline page to go along with the proposed replacement section for NOR. Blueboar 15:06, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
There appears to be some obfuscation and misrepresentation going on here, possibly to satisfy some sort of narrow agenda. I suggest that what has served the community well for years, particularly years of growth and growing acceptance, should not be tossed aside by a tiny group of editors on some sort of personal mission. If there are a substantial number of editors in the 2nd and 3rd categories, then I agree; make sure that the PSTS situation is dealt with first and its continued existence in its present form or some even more explicit form guaranteed, then make whatever minor changes to format and organization that are required.-- Filll 15:22, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
I've noted above that PSTS defines most ancient histories as secondary sources or mixed primary/secondary sources since they usually include older histories and only sometimes include eyewitness accounts, since they include the historians' own interpretations, and since they don't resemble the "examples of primary sources." Nonetheless, common practice, including common Wikipedia practice, regards these as primary sources, or groups ancient sources into their own category. (P.S. I think we can agree that the literal reading of PSTS which makes these secondary sources is not Wikipedia practice and therefore does not have consensus).
PSTS is basically concerned with describing the sources, their strengths, and their weaknesses. NOR is basically concerned with which claims in the sources can support which claims in the articles, in particular, avoiding improper synthesis. This means using factual claims to support the same factual claims and using interpretations to support the same interpretation. So NOR has to classify statements as factual or interpretive, and probably also note issues which make for unreliable statements in reliable sources, while PSTS has to classify sources as Primary, Secondary, or Tertiary, with some special cases. (P.S. Count me in groups 1 & 2. I initially supported keeping PSTS in a "self-contained" NOR policy, but I think the new proposals cover the NOR issues and mean we can move PSTS elsewhere; I now think PSTS would do much better on its own or with other source-classification policies). Jacob Haller 15:53, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
<undent> The proposal to make a complete package... hammering out a proposed PSTS policy/guideline page to go along with the proposed replacement section for NOR, looks welcome to me. What's needed with it is a FAQ showing the evidence for the concerns, for example the contexts in which definitions vary, and diffs of example of disputes over interpretation. We also need to consider carefully the policy implications of PSTS and of the proposal, both in this policy and in relation to other policies. There could be good use of a page covering both this and what exactly is intended by "third party", possibly with text brought in through transclusion as above. .. dave souza, talk 17:38, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
On the page Talk:Ebionites, the following statement was made, and I quote: "Citing two authors with divergent views in some areas is not OR nor synthesis. What matters is whether they are making the same claim in the specific area which they are cited about -- which in this instance they are". Is that statement in accord with wikipedia policy as per this page? John Carter 16:54, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
It unfortunately appears to be the case that WP:PSTS has recently been manhandled by too many various, unsynchronized edits in the past few months, and is in need of work. As I stated farther above, "Primary and secondary sources" has been a standard part of WP:NOR for some three-and-a-half years, with its roots in direct instruction from WP's founder. A couple years ago it became a discrete section of WP:NOR. In October 2006 it was changed to "Primary, secondary and tertiary sources", which solved many conceptual problems and gave an extra layer to the concept of "secondary sources" in the implementation of WP:NOR around the wiki. Nearly a year ago WP:PSTS read as can be seen in the version in late October 2006. Notice also how it still read pretty much the same in April 2007. In the interim a some "entropy", so to speak, has occurred. Note how it began to be worked over gradually, bit by bit, e.g., by 23 June 2007, with the example of the "Security Resolution". By the beginning of August 2007 it looked like this. Presently it looks like this. This section apparently only needs to be cleaned up and brought back to its earlier, more stable roots, not thrown out. ... Kenosis 17:15, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
By far, the worst statement at present is the bolded statement: "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published primary and secondary sources." This statement was originally added on 28 June 2007 in the midst of a brief flurry of edit warring by several users. It originally read: "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources." It was arguably an oversimplification of "secondary sources" from the very beginning of that bolded policy statement in late June, The statement, with the addition of "primary and..." to the sentence, has since become confusing and essentially meaningless. It's no wonder a number of people are more confused by PSTS than need be the case here. IMO, the statement should never have been added to begin with, or at an absolute minimum it should be set into better context. ... Kenosis 17:57, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
How about this:
What do people think? I'd like to add something to make it clear that if we are citing a secondary source and that source includes raw data, we can include the raw data as long as it is restricted to the context in which the authors of the secondary source (e.g. journal article) use it i.e. in the context of their own analysis/argument ... but I haven't figured out a concise way to say it... Slrubenstein | Talk 19:26, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
"What's currently missing from Slrubenstein's proposal for shortening PSTS is that WP is not permitted to be a publisher of original syntheses," - how can you say this? i address this explicitly! Slrubenstein | Talk 22:04, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Let's remember the point of all this explaining of source types... which is to say that Wikipedia should not be 1) a primary source of a fact or idea... or 2) an original secondary source in analyzing facts or ideas. IE facts and ideas should not originate on wikipedia. All else is fluff to help explain these two concepts. Blueboar 22:37, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
In case people don't have a "Watchlist" set for the policy page itself, it automatically was unprotected this morning by the 'bot, and two edits have taken place. Both covered an area that's been under discussion, but I don't remember seeing anything that asks for if people agreed or not.
The way I read the "unofficial" vote at the top of the page, it appears that there is concensus for that, so I will add it. If it turns out there is not concensus, then go ahead and revert. wbfergus Talk 13:13, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
As of yesterday, Blueboar's proposal read:
Citing Appropriate Source Materials (alternative suggested section title: Sticking to the Sources)
Within Wikipedia articles we will find statements of fact and statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion. It is important to cite appropriate sources to back those different types of statements. Statements of fact should be cited to reliable sources that contain that fact. Statements of fact should also match the context of the source for that fact. Statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion should be cited to reliable sources that contain the same interpretation, analysis or conclusion, often called secondary sources (see WP:PSTS). Collections of facts which tend to lead the reader to a certain interpretation should be supported not only by a reliable source for each fact, but also by a reliable source that contains the same interpretation.
Editors cannot include their own interpretations of previously-published facts, unless that interpretation is either 1) an obvious and non-controversial consequence of the facts or 2) can be attributed to a reliable source. Nor can editors expand on an author's interpretations of fact, unless that expanded interpretation is also found in a reliable source.
When there are a number of reliable sources that interpret a particular piece of material, we need to be especially careful not to insert or imply our own interpretation of the original material.
For example, that Franklin D. Roosevelt was born in Hyde Park, New York and that he became president of the United States are both verifiable facts that may be cited in a Wikipedia article. The dates of each event are easily verified, and it would be perfectly admissible to say that he "was born in Hyde Park, NY, and later became president of the United States" without finding a source that specifically uses the word "later", or otherwise explicitly compares the dates. However, any statement about the effect his birth place had on him or on his career would require separate citation, since such a statement would not an obvious or non-controversial consequence of these easily verified facts.
Support I think it summarizes NOR as cleanly as any of the alternatives. I hope that we can work out any remaining issues and add this to the policy by, say, the end of the year, regardless of how we handle PSTS. Jacob Haller 21:19, 23 September 2007 (UTC)
Support - Let's add this and Srubenstein's context/history to the policy without deleting anything. Can we all agree on that? Let's get some kind of improvement into the policy. WAS 4.250 07:39, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Support with one modification. I agree with Dhaluza that the reference to WP:PSTS is unnecessary. I also think it's not accurate. An original analysis, conclusion, or interpretation is actually the primary source of that new analysis, conclusion, or interpretation. So I suggest we just delete the confusing parenthetical phrase "often called secondary sources (see WP:PSTS)." It doesn't add anything, and it's potentially confusing. Otherwise, I support. COGDEN 18:20, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Oppose this: "Editors cannot include their own interpretations of previously-published facts, unless that interpretation is either 1) an obvious and non-controversial consequence of the facts" which is a departure from the policy and would require far more support to fly than the number of editors currently involved in this discussion. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:25, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Using Appropriate Source Materials Appropriately
Wikipedia articles contain statements of fact, and statements of interpretation, analysis or conclusion. It is important to cite appropriate sources in each case.
Editors cannot include their own interpretations of previously-published facts, unless that interpretation is either 1) an obvious and non-controversial consequence of the facts or 2) can be attributed to a reliable source. Editors can only expand on a source's interpretations of fact by citing additional reliable sources in an appropriate context.
When there are multiple reliable sources that interpret a particular concept differently, editors need to be especially careful to present all mainstream and significant minority views, and not develop a novel interpretation or reinterpretation of the original material. When the collection of facts support different interpretations, editors must present the relevant verifiable facts, and not selectively present facts that support one interpretation over another.
Apologies in advance if this seem shocking. I broke out the ax and chopped down excess wordiness. In the process I also changed a few things. The title is new. I broke the paragraph making two different points into bullets. I refocused the third statement on context rather than the slippery slope of tending to lead to... because I could see this being used to reinvigorate controversy over lists for example--instead, I added a sentence about cherry picking facts, which should address the same problem with less collateral damage. I expanded the example to tie it to the last paragraph as well. Feel free to compare and contrast this with the original proposal (I have thick skin). Dhaluza 10:38, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Likewise editors cannot expand on a source's interpretations of fact, except by citing additional reliable sources. I can see your troubling over that too. This has the potential to suggest synthesis is ok (there is a fact, there are some other facts, look I can join them together), and if additional sources are cited, then the interpretation depends on those so is not an issue. My instinct was simply to delete the second half of the sentence, but perhaps some wording is required to hammer home the point. It is also ambiguous for not saying what these additional citations are required for. Spenny 10:48, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I like this more than Blueboar's version, though I still have doubts about the Roosevelt example. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:25, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I agree much of this version, though I think Blueboar's version is more likely to achieve consensus. I have the same issue as with the other proposal, with the parenthetical "(also called secondary sources; see: WP:PSTS)". An analysis, interpretation, or conclusion is not called a "secondary source" (not by academics, anyway). If the analysis is original, it's actually the primary source of that analysis. We don't need this parenthetical, and it's potentially confusing.
I also have serious qualms about requiring "reliable sources for the context" in the OR article. Obviously, we want editors to provide context for quotations and facts, but that's mainly an WP:NPOV issue. Simply omitting context is not original research. It may be biased and deceptive if you don't cite other facts and information that should be included to provide the proper context, but it's not OR. Let's keep this policy focused on OR. Otherwise, this has the potential to cause trouble down the road. COGDEN 18:46, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
<undent> Again, editors cannot include their own interpretations of previously-published facts, but can only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge. .. dave souza, talk 21:40, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
I already posted this suggestion in the middle of another thread, but the discussion following it skewed off onto other subjects, so I'm posting it in a new section so that (hopefully) the discussion here can focus on the suggestion itself.
Given the history of the section, and comments made by people on both sides of the debate here, it seems that the greatest (potential) value of the PSTS section is to explain what a tertiary source is, and explain that that's what wikipedia is supposed to be. This doesn't mean prohibiting primary sources, but perhaps indicating that they require greater caution. (every definition I've found - and linked during discussions above - of "tertiary source" says that they are based on primary and secondary sources, but mainly secondary ones). As such, I would suggest that the section be redrafted with this clear focus, as that should actually be less confusing and give better guidance to editors. The potential for moving the section to a new page to be referred from any policy that needs it is a seperate matter that, while I still support, is not an aspect of this suggestion. SamBC( talk) 13:19, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
(Unindent)I don't think there would be any major contention on this section, on the basis it is using a description of sources to describe the characteristics of an encyclopaedia. The issue is raised by trying to then reverse the logic (I am trying to think of the right word, is it an intransitive function where you can put a value in and get a predictable value out the other end, but you put the answer back through and you cannot get to the question?). Kenosis recent edit on the main page actually removes that logic and reverts to a general description of sourcing without an attempt to invert the logic, so it becomes far less contentious. Sticking with that thought, if the current description of sourcing as it stands only describes the features of a good encyclopaedia, then we may see that whilst interesting, it does not really underwrite the policing of policy. Spenny 18:41, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Okay, here's an example of transclusion User:Wbfergus/Sandbox/Transclusion example. I copied the "Sources section from the policy to create the page. I next created a sub-page called "Sources", and moved the PSTS sub-section into that sub-page, then I used the transclusion template on the first page to pull in the sub-page. Feel free to look at the edit text to see how it works.
Now, the advantage to this is that if we implement this on this policy, the "Sources" can be a sub-page and any discussion about these "Sources" can be discussed there, instead of here. This would help focus this talk page more to strictly NOR issues, and all of the "Sources" discussions happen somewhere else. When reading, it is transparent, so it appears that what is transcluded is hard-coded into the text they see on the screen, so there is no "loss of policy" or other weakening of this policy, it's merely moving one section that has generated an awful lot of discussion into another spot so thse discussions can happen elsewhere.
A disadvantage would be that it would need to be documented better what is happening and that "Sources" discussions happen on the sub-page. This isn't that big of a deal, but it's a step that needs to be done. (I won't sign the two questions below so that my sig doesn't interfere with the questions) wbfergus Talk 20:02, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Does anybody see any other advantages or disadvantages?
Would all parties involved agree that this would be an effective compromise to at least "clean-up" this talk page so that it is far easier to concentrate on solely NOR issues?
There is no rush to transclude. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:21, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Also note that we do not need RS to become a policy page, as the reliability of sources is already explored in WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:NPOV in their specific contexts. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:23, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
A large part of the confusion between source types seems to lie in contradictory understandings of the distinctions. For example, my main area of study has been in the humanities, which uses quite different definitions than the sciences, which use differing definitions than the "strict dictionary sense". It seems like a lot of the confusion and disagreement largely lies in those distinct understandings of the issue.
I will raise peer-reviewed publications for an example. In the humanities, peer-reviewed publications are considered secondary sources. In the sciences, they are generally considered primary sources (when putting forth a novel theory). In the strict dictionary sense, they are a mixture of primary and secondary, based on identifying raw data and novel claims as primary material. Within these individual fields and viewpoints, there are further variations as well. For example, a small part of the humanities considers any source drawn upon in research to be a primary source. Beyond all this confusion, the academic distinctions were created with the goal of creating and reviewing original research in mind.
In a broad sense, primary sources are those drawn upon as "raw" evidence, which are subjected to an intense review and analysis, particularly of their reliability and context. (In humanities, it's more "internal" to the work, peer-review generally judging the strength of argument. In the sciences, it's more "external", peer-review usually examining even the raw data collected with intense scrutiny.) In the same broad sense, secondary sources are the analysis and reviews of other contemporary authors, drawn upon to critique and counter those views or cited as sympathetic to the central thesis being forwarded.
So, in essence, I feel the conflicting definitions create a lot of confusion and conflict, and I have no particular ideas of how to "fix" this problem. A centralized definition is not a solution in and of itself, because such a thing has been present in policy, but the confusion and conflict continue. Perhaps we need to work with other terms, or maybe the language simply needs to be clarified and tightened. I also wonder if definitions created to promote and frame original research are appropriate for a policy that has the opposing intention. We may be working at cross-purposes to ourselves in continuing to use definitions created for the converse purpose as the policy they support. Just some thoughts. What are your thoughts in response? Vassyana 20:24, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Vassyana, in the humanities secondary sources such as peer-reviewed journal pulbications can be sources of data and thus be used as primary sources just as in the physical sciences. For example, a historian my publish material from an archive in an article, along with analysis and interpretation; another historian can use that material to promote another interpretation in another article. Someone studying medieval French literature can publish an article with a hithertoo unpublished poem, and analyze it - and another scholar can then draw on the article for the poem, and provide another interpretation. I do not see how this is different from an article on molecular genetics or chemistry providing data. The point is, data can be published independently or in the context of a peer-reviewed journal article, along with analysis or interpretation. This is true for the natural sciences and the humanities. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:58, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, to be fair, most peer-reviewed journal articles in the life or physical sciences never present raw data. What may look to you like raw data is often actually the rsult of several stages of processing. My point is simply this: in both works from the natural sciences and humanities - works that make an argument, that interpret or explain data - there is often data, in some form, that others can use to develop their own interpretations or explanations. I very strongly believe in making a distinction between data and arguments about data, and I think that the distinction between primary and secondary sources is useful, I am just saying that secondary sources can be sources of data, and this is true across academe. I am not sure about your second question - I do not understand the question. I think your analogy is false. In the United States there is a rule about how old people must be to drink; I think in all States it is now 21 years old. The difference between being twenty years old and twenty one years old is important for people in both groups, but for the first groups it means they must buy a fake ID to by booze, and for people in the second group it means they do not. for people who sell booze, it means they have to check IDs and know how to tell the difference. Knowing the difference has opposite effects for two groups. There are all sorts of distinctions in life that allow one group of people to do something, and prohibit others from doing the same thing. There is nothing unusual about this. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
This is much clearer, and I agree with everything you say. I think we just need to define terms clearly, and also emphasize that what is important is how material is being used - and for that reason, terms can apply to overlapping categories. Most peer-reviewed journal articles in the life and physical sciences do not limit themselves to raw-data and easily fall under our definition of "secondary source." The point is simply that secondary sources can also be sources of primary material (data), and I don't think it should be hard to make this clear in the article. It seems like people view primary/secondary/tertiary sources as mutually exclusive categories when I think they are either overlapping or even best understood by degrees of inclusion - tertiary sources refer to secondary sources and primary sources; secondary sources refer to primary sources ... at this point since we both agree this discussion should move to the following section. I recently posted a long comment calling attention to three distinctions we need to make in this discussion - perhaps you can comment, amplifying on or correcting what I wrote there. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:28, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I posted much of this before, but it wasn't here very long before being rotated to the archive pages. This is a survey of good sources defining primary and secondary sources. I don't think that this distinction needs to be in this policy page, and it overly complicates things, but here it is anyway, so that we can avoid making statements in the policy that disagree with common usage.
Definitions of a primary source:
Definitions of a secondary source:
There are, of course, sloppier definitions of secondary sources. Some say that a secondary source is something that comments on a primary source. And yes, that's very true: if something comments on a primary source or contains analysis about prior materials, it's definitely a secondary source. But if the commentary is original research, it's also a primary source as to that new idea. The terms are relative, and it all depends on what you are focusing on, and sources can be both primary and secondary. But why do we even need to even go there? The concepts of primary and secondary are confusing, and not always interpreted consistently. The ambiguity between primary and secondary sources is all very complicated, and this whole area really has no place in a policy article addressed to lay editors. This is stuff that PhDs debate about. How can we expect the average Wikipedia editor to understand and apply this? COGDEN 23:55, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
The fact remains, nonetheless, that Wikipedia is not, as is being repetively argued on this page w.r.t. WP:NOR, required to mirror the external usages of its policy terms. I just pointed out another arena of policy where Wikipedia chooses its own terms, and it's not limited to WP:NFCC, but can be found in many aspects of policy such as WP:NPOV and WP:BLP. These issues too are by no means "semantic" or "rhetorical". Some of the recent rapid-fire arguments by opponents of WP:PSTS appear hell-bent on picking holes in every little thing, with one objective, and only one objective -- to change longstanding Wikipedia NOR policy. In my opinion, if anything ends up being a rhetorical game, it is this ongoing struggle by a few WP participants to pick holes in longstanding, very widely consensused policy upon which many thousands of users have come to rely for quite some time now, without a coherent replacement plan that participants can agree is an improvement. Presently, in this section, the argument is that it does not mirror external usages of PSTS. In other sections it's either one thing or another, or some combination of complaints, but always without a coherent plan that has potential to be widely agreed upon as a superior replacement. Well, the plain fact is that WP:PSTS is not exact, but WP's usage of PSTS comes damned close to that of library science usage and also to that of historiographers. Again, as I was attempting to point out, even if WP:PSTS did not closely mirror certain external usages of PSTS, WP is still within its rights to use its own standard. Note also that the entire policy WP:NOR does not mirror usages outside of Wikipedia, and has only vague analogues with other encyclopedia writing and journalistic writing. Not that I expect these observations to bring a quick end to these various attempts to pick holes in whatever appears like it can be argued. But I offer it just for your information. ... Kenosis 03:18, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
[Posted prior to the above]Again, though, the simple breakdown can be misleading if taken too strictly. For example, in the case of seminal works, whether fiction, non-fiction or scientific, the seminal books themselves can be primary sources. Examples I gave above include the works of Plato, Aristotle and Kant as primary sources. Similarly, to us in Wikipedia, the written theses of Einstein, Heisenberg and Bohr are primary sources, whether or not they drew on others' experiments. Homer's Odyssey and Iliad are examples of primary sources too, at least from the standpoint of Wikipedia editing. Thus, some flexibility and common sense will need to be exercised both here on the policy page and on the article pages. The key in the primary/secondary/tertiary source categorization is not necessarily which record is closest to the ground, so to speak. To be technical, or tendentious, one could argue, for instance, that only the first laboratory notes are primary sources, so by this measure by the time we get to writing in Wikipedia, the textbook source that mentions the experimental result may be a quinary (5th order), senary (6th order), or even farther down the chain of interpretation. For our purposes, generally speaking, the highly technical interpretation by the original developer(s) of a theory is a primary source, and the explanation of the summary results is a secondary source.
In a similar vein, Immanuel Kant's Critique of Pure Reason, a leading turn-of-the-19th-century philosophical treatise that gave us, among other things, the word phenomenon, is a primary source. Since it is a highly obscure work, scholarly interpretations of Kant's work are secondary sources on which we depend very heavily. Several times we've encountered editors who think they know Kant better than the scholars, and that's original research -- which is another example of why PSTS is part of the policy page. Thus, again, these are not hard and fast delineations in WP:PSTS, but they are critical in the implementation of the NOR policy. . ... Kenosis 15:47, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
<undent> The list of definitions is good, and would make a useful addition to the Wikipedia:Classification of sources essay which has the potential to be developed into the shared PSTS resource being suggested. As a non-academic I'm comfortable with them all and with the essential point in NOR at present that "Primary sources are documents or people very close to the situation being written about.", which means to me that the categorisation is relative to the subject of the article or section. Linking to articles as definitions is undesirable and I agree that it should not be done, which is why there's a place for these links to be replaced by the Classification of sources essay once it's developed into a guideline. Alternatively, the clarified classification could become part of WP:RS .. dave souza, talk 09:50, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Per discussion, I revised the introduction, taking into account coments and edits by other people active here.
I would not like to propose to change the following section, "What is excluded." I have three problems with this. first, it opens up not with a statement about what is excluded, but with the motivation behind the policy, so the title of the section and part of the contents are inconsistent. Second, the list of what is excluded seems ad hoc. Third, following sections explain in greater detail what is excluded and why.
Here is what I propose: since we are still debating primary versus secondary sources and what is actually included and excluded, I suggest that instead of calling this section "What is excluded" let's follow the lead of the first sentence and make it a section about what motivated the policy i.e. its origins. Such a section can discuss things that have traditionally been excluded, but in the context of the history of the proposal. I think this explanation of the history would be educational.
ALL I am proposing right now is to change the second section. I am not proposing anything about the third or following sections (on sources and synthesis).
here is what I propose:
Origins of the policy
The core policy of Wikipedia, NPOV is meant to provide a framework whereby editors with diverse, often conflicting, even opposing points of view can collaborate on the creation of an encyclopedia. It does so through the principle that while it is often hard for people to agree as to what is the truth, it is much easier for people to agree as to what they and others believe to be the truth. Therefore, Wikipedia does not use "truth" as a criteria for inclusion. Instead, it aims to account for different, notable views of the truth. First codified in February 2002, the objective of the NPOV policy is to produce an unbiased encyclopedia.
In the year that followed a good deal of conflict on article talk pages involved accusations that editors were violating NPOV, and it became clear that this policy, which provided a philosophical foundation for Wikipedia, needed to be supplemented. Wikipedians developed the concept of " verifiability" as a way of ensuring the accuracy of articles by encouraging editors to cite sources; this concept was established as a policy in August 2003. Verifiability was also promoted as a way to ensure that notable views would be represented, under the assumption that the most notable views were easiest to document with sources. Notability is especially imortant because while NPOV encourages editors to add alternative points of view to an article, it does not claim that all views are equal. Although NPOV does not claim that some views are more truthful than others, it does acknowledge that some views are held by more people than others. Accurately representing a view therefore also means explaining who holds the view and whether it is a majority or minority view.
Soon it became evident that editors who rejected a majority view would often marshall sources to argue that a minority view was superior to a majority view - or would even add sources in order to promote the editor's own view. Therefore, the NOR policy was established in 2003 to address problematic uses of sources. The original motivation for NOR was to prevent editors from introducing fringe views in science, especially physics - or from excluding verifiable views that, in the judgement of editors, were wrong . [1] It soon became clear that the policy should apply to any editor trying to introduce his or her own views into an article (and thus a way to distinguish Wikipedia from Everything 2). In its earliest form the policy singled out edits that:
for exclusion, and established that
as criteria for inclusion.
References
As before my attitude has been conservative, to try to preserve as much as the previous content as possible. I have attempted to make the layout more consistent and clearer. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Okay, this proposal has been sitting here for 9 days without any objections as to it's content. This proposal does nothing to change existing policy or any of the policy proposals. All it does is add a brief history of the policy and its evolution. I would like to move past this 'subject' so it can be archived, and this page can concentrate solely on more pressing issues. What is concensus here, so that I know whether or not I can ask an Admin to make this change? Thanks. wbfergus Talk 11:38, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
In case anybody misses the post near the bottom of this page, I have added the above "Origins" to the policy. If I was incorrect in there being a clear concensus on this, feel free to revert.
wbfergus Talk 13:20, 24 September 2007 (UTC)
Good points Wikidemo. Thanks for those. After reading them I tend to agree, but I think the brief "history in a nutshell" may still be useful to the policy, if not actually part of the policy. Maybe either a sub-page or a separate article, so the concerns you raised are alleviated? wbfergus Talk 13:10, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
Just to pick up on the protection issue. I think it is a little harsh assuming that the page has to be protected for the primary/secondary source debate now ensuing. This is not the same debate that there was edit warring over. I don't think anyone involved in the new debate has suggested radical surgery as yet, and even if they wished to, we could assert that it was a legitimate BRD manoeuvre. It would seem to me that the sensible approach would be to relax a bit: unprotect the page, apply the edit and see what unfolds. 'Tis the work of a moment to re-protect and revert (we could even agree that the rollback point is now if that would help). Spenny 15:37, 22 September 2007 (UTC)
I just added some hidden comment warnings to the policy, at the top of the page, and again at the top of each section, so that it is plain and unmistakable that there is a proper way and procedure before edits get made. Though it is redundant, the reason I added it in each section is so somebody can't claim they just hit the section "edit" button and didn't see the warning. Since these are hidden comments, I don't think it changes the policy at all, and refers to another policy about making edits to policy pages. The appropriate policy page/section is WP:POLICY#Differences_between_policies.2C_guidelines.2C_essays.2C_etc., specifically where it states:
I do not think that a few editors that disagree with long-standing formulation of this policy, can held this page at ransom by adding a dispute tag. This is official policy of Wikipedia, until that time in which there is consensus to the contrary. If editors want to alert others about their concerns, they can post a message at the VP. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 17:42, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
The onus is on those wanting to change things to demonstrate there is a problem, given that that the current policy has been in place for several years, and there is consensus to change. Throwing tags around willy-nilly on policy pages by a small group of malcontents with some personal agendas does not constitute some serious dispute or serious problem. What is going on here?-- Filll 19:56, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
The dispute tag marks the presence of a dispute - which is the absence of consensus - which is what we have here. The absence of a dispute tag should mark the absence of a dispute - which is the presence of consensus, either for the present version or for agreed-on changes. Removing the dispute tag falsely characterizes the section as being undisputed. Jacob Haller 20:20, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Tsk! Tsk! Go off to parents' evening, come home again to find all you naughty children have made this mess. I think you all should be sent to bed. It strikes me that however right or wrong the tag is, it is hardly worth warring over. Now say sorry and tidy your rooms.
Filll, please be careful about comments questioning peoples' motives. There has been an undercurrent of suggestion that those who want the policy explained in clearer terms are doing so out of malice which I thought was dissipating as people gained understanding of the issues; there are some people posting in superior terms about the qualities and qualifications required to participate here. For example, if I am right that some of this stuff is too complicated for your average editor either to be interested in or understand, then that group are unlikely to be participating in this current, if I may say, rather rarefied debate. But everyone deserves a slap on the wrist of common sense ;) Spenny 21:08, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
If there is a dispute, there is very likely to be an absence of consensus. Since {{ policy}} loudly asserts wide consensus, it is very useful to label the points where this is an exaggeration. As it happens, I think we need to have source typing in one of core policies (probably this one, since writing from primary sources is one quite common type of OR); nevertheless, I support the tag. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 23:01, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
I don't know if anyone appreciates the irony of the edit war over the disputed tag at the top of the PSTS section resulting in a protect tag at the top of the page saying there is a dispute. It seems to me that this is a worse outcome, sort of a self-fulfilling (or self-defeating) prophesy. Anyway, I suggest we agree in advance that when the protect tag expires, we all follow the one revert rule to prevent escalating any future edit war. Regardless of whether you think you are right, or the other editor is wrong, once you make your change you have made your point on the record, and there is no reason to repeat it. Let someone else step up, and be patient. WP will hopefully be around for a long time, and there is no deadline. Dhaluza 00:19, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Can we agree to at least maybe have something along the lines of a [[ straw poll to determine which cources of action would be acceptable for further discussion, so that we aren't spending our limited "editing time" arguing about some point that may become readily apparent doesn't have a snowballs chance? Something along the lines of Wikipedia:Editing policy pages maybe, where 8 different 'subjects' or proposals are put to a non-binding vote. It should be clearly stated that the votes won't be used to determine yea or nay to the policy, just to try and determine if there is some common ground for further discussion. Good or bad idea? wbfergus Talk 18:55, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Frankly, the fact that I am advised to dig through months if not years of history and the dispute cannot be stated succinctly and clearly, tells me something smells bad here. So you are telling me all this hubub and sturm und drang here is because a few mean old editors want to stay with the old policy, when for years people have been clamoring to change it? Hmm...-- Filll 20:25, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
<undent>I went back and all I see is a confusing mess. I am not going to spend 10 hours digging through obfuscation and nonsense and contentious disputation to try to find the nugget of the argument, when people do not seem to be sufficiently motivated to state it here where we can read it. This looks suspiciously like you want to drive others away so you can do your dirty work in secret. Either make it clear, or forget it.-- Filll 21:39, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
Filll and Orangemarlin, I really (honestly and truly) expected far better from the both you than snarky comments mischaracterizing the situation, assuming bad faith and disparaging more than a few intelligent and experienced editors. I'm seriously and frankly shocked. Vassyana 01:42, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
One problem with OrangeMarlin's Filll's and Jim62sch's holier-than-thou comments is are that this very subject we have debating here recently has been problematic in this policy since at least January 2005 (see further instructions below, I can't get it linked) the oldest talk page I can find. Numerous people have argued these points over and over, and it appears that they probably just got tired of being stonewalled by groups oppesoed to any change not of their own doing, and figured that their time could be more constructively used elsewhere and they would edit as they saw fit, regardless of what the exact wording of the policy actually was. If their edits got reverted or challenged later, oh well, there was still a good chance most of their edits to artciles would still stand. So, basically what I'm saying is it seems to kind of difficult to effectively articulate 30 archived talk pages (some are buried underneath the draft rewrites), into a one or two sentence position, as he would suggest. Conversely, I've yet to see any effective or coherent reasons to leave a problematic section that has generated much controversy and heated discussions over almost three years (just about 3 months shy).
wbfergus
Talk 10:43, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
This policy would be more clear if it said what needs to be said without using the words "primary" and "secondary". - WAS 4.250 22:12, 25 September 2007 (UTC)
<undent> I agree with Jim here. Holy cow! If this is a problem, then explain primary secondary and tertiary with some well-chosen examples. This is an unbelievable objection...wow.-- Filll 17:04, 26 September 2007 (UTC)