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I have been trying to edit the intro section for clarity and brevity - I also changed the "nutshell" based on a comment by Tim. I want to propose changing the intro of the actual policy to the following, and I will not do it unless there is general agreement.
My approach has been conservative - to change content as little as possible, but to streamline.
Here goes:
This page in a nutshell:
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Original research (OR) is a term used in Wikipedia to refer to unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories. The term also applies to any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position — or, in the words of Wikipedia's co-founder Jimmy Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation."
Any strong objections? Slrubenstein | Talk 14:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Approve:
I approve, with the exception that the word "established" is adding something to verifiability that is not there. Verifiability requires sourcing and verifiability requires that reliable sources be used. In almost all cases what is added will be material that is "established" (which seems normal and right) and I agree with the concept that Wikipedia is not the place to introduce willy-nilly challenges to what is established. If the word "established" were removed the section would be beautiful. I'd prefer that to further discussion about whether "established" belongs. That could be discussed later, along with the discussion on source typing and the discussion on synthesis. This is an opportunity for forward motion. Forward motion would be wonderful. -- Minasbeede 17:42, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The NPOV policy says this about facts; "By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute."" For the modifier for "fact" I guess you would not object to changing "established" to "undisputed?" Slrubenstein | Talk 09:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The current intro discusses the relationship between NOR and NPOV and V (just as the intro to NPOV discusses V and NOR, and the intro to V discusses NPOV and NOR). The above is only meant to replace the introduction as I stated before. I think it is reasonable to take a conservative approach and continue to place this policy in the context of the other two major content policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Disapprove:
Slrubenstein, you said "Jacob Haller, I doubt your vote should even count since you reject the very existence of anNOR policy and, it seems, NPOV too." That is a personal attack, and it is false.
Do people agree that ASF would be a better description of NPOV in the context? Jacob Haller 19:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
No. This is just another one of your transparent attempts to make an end run around NOR. Give it up. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I do not believe I am misrepresenting NPOV. However, you do single out one important point of NPOV and in the spirit of compromise I have, as you asked, added it to point two of my proposal. I modified the wording a bit, because it has been taken out of context and thus needs a little explaining, but i think what i did honors the spirit of your request. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I like the new version - especially the reference to undisputed facts. I would recommend:
Strictly speaking, NPOV concerns the last one.
I might suggest:
If you prefer. Jacob Haller 17:38, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The point about directly related is in bold in the original, so I've boldly bolded it here to retain the emphasis on this essential point. The "undisputed facts" seems confusing when it's divorced from the more detailed explanation, after all the age of the earth is hotly disputed, the point is that for our purposes it's a fact that various verifiable sources give statements about the age of the earth. To me it would be much clearer to have "encourages editors to add verifiable published facts..." ... dave souza, talk 09:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I have made changes based on some comments, and others have made some edits. For the sake of moving on, can I replace the current introduction with this? As anywhere in Wikipedia, nothing is permanent, I really only ask if people agree this is better than the current intro. if so, I will make the change and we can continue discussing other issues. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I'd pare back the paragraphs on Verifiability and on NPOV to the minimum. Referring to the other two policies is about all that is needed here and it is in those other two policies that the explication of each need be done. I think lurking in all this is the principle that V doesn't trump NOR and NPOV (etc.), which is true. The policies stand together. If the language in NOR can be made smoother by whittling some of it away that's all to the good. I am not advocating whittling away V or NPOV, only simplification. As these are core policies it would be almost essential that if language about any other policy appears here it would have to exactly mirror the policy as explained in its own section: anything else leads to confusion. So if it appears and is done right it's just an echo and that ought not to be necessary: you don't succeed as an editor by following only one policy or just two of them: it's all three that have to be satisfied. None of the policies has to carry any weight for the others: they carry their own weight. Expressing the need to adhere to all three is surely something that ought be expressed in all three, but that's about it.. Even that's a bit redundant but it's probably appropriate and it shouldn't add a large number of words.
I have an issue with "in any way" but I'd leave it in. "In any way" is almost a stand-in for the synthesis section (and the extreme interpretation it represents) and that section could (and surely will) be discussed once the current issue is resolved. That discussion can determine the fate of "in any way."
There is visible forward motion. Thank you, Slrubenstein. -- Minasbeede 15:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I think I understand the concern over the NPOV point. It should lead with balance. Adding facts is about NOR or V. A reorder might work well to resolve.
There is ambiguity over the way it says you cannot add your own point of view. So I want to write that the world is round - that is my view point. Again the point is to ensure balance, which a group of editors might achieve. The danger is that you may not be able to evolve an article with this writing.
Final comment is that I would phrase and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three simply as content must comply with all three. That avoids the lack of prescriptiveness which is actually a requirement, it is weasely at the moment. Spenny 17:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I do not. What I wrote is a pretty straightforward summary of NPOV - it includes more than minasbeede wants, because there is more to NPOV than Minasbeede suggests. And if you do not know by now, you should: NPOV is non-negotiable and dictated by the Foundation. If you think there is some overlap between NOR, V and NPOV, you are right and there is a good reason: NPOV is the core, the rootstock, and NOR and V grew out of it. I think it is essential to explain NPOV in a way that people see how NOR has its roots in NPOV, and what is what I did - while being guided by what NOR actually says.
I think people are - with good intentions I am certain - quibbling right now. Vassyana has just appealed for mediation. I would like to propose adding my new introduction to the Policy today, so we can actually move forward. No one (including myself) is going to be 100% happy - we just need to get used to that here (I already made some changes incorporating other people's ideas - including ideas of people with whom I have vehemently disagreed; we all need to be willing to do that). Slrubenstein | Talk 07:47, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
The core issue isn't 100% happiness, the issue is having policies that are not a constant source of irritation (and the resulting "edit warring" and discussion on talk pages.) For example, if an offense against NOR is that the editor has introduced novel material then the novelty is the offense and there's no need to claim, within NOR, that in some indistinct manner NPOV forbids that. The offense is directly against NOR and that's sufficient. There has never been any need to add specific language about that specific offense to the NOR policy. My current issue is about style and method of presentation: it's about neither source-typing (the example cited is illustrative) nor about synthesis: make the introduction clean. Get the introduction solid, then proceed to source-typing and (eventually to) synthesis. If problematic material is left in the NOR policy page then it will continue to be a point of contention all the time it is there. That's not something to be facilely swept away by asserting that, well, nobody is going to be 100% happy. -- Minasbeede 14:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
This isn't all that complicated. I don't think NPOV prohibits editors from adding their own opinions, I think NOR (this policy) does that. NPOV requires level treatment of all opinions, analyses, etc. that comply with the other two policies, including this one, NOR. It's inaccurate and unnecessary to say NPOV forbids editors' own opinions: that's done by NOR. NPOV addresses the issue of editors giving unfair emphasis to a particular point of view. If that point of view is an instance of OR then NPOV never comes into play: that point of view shouldn't appear at all. There is no issue over fair treatment (according to NPOV) of material that shouldn't appear at all. The introduction to NOR should not say that NOR (or some aspect of it) is a subset of NPOV. It isn't. -- Minasbeede 14:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
That NPOV has always forbidden editors from expressing their views in articles may be historically accurate but when NOR was created I think that prohibition passed over into NOR. I don't see the prohibition in the current NPOV (and I'm glad I don't, I think that when NOR was created it was entirely proper to move that entirely to NOR. Leaving it split between the two would be horribly cumbersome.) It's not deceptive to say NPOV says (although really, it "said") that in the Introduction but it is confusing: a person reading that might go to NPOV and search for it and not find it. The statement in the Introduction could be modified with the word "historically" or there could be a footnote or a parenthetic expression but that tends to make the Introduction (well, maybe the word "historically" doesn't do it) cumbersome. Leave it in if you must; be aware that is a source of confusion. Confusion in policies is not good (but I assert that in an entirely OR fashion.) I would not myself want to be responsible for causing confusion in a policy statement. I don't for a moment believe that's your intent but I do warn that it could be a result. -- Minasbeede 16:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Can an article have a SYNT problem by implication? The article George Washington and religion contains what I find to be a subtle form of synthesis... using original documents in a way that very strongly "implies" that Washington held certain religious beliefs (specifically that he was a Deist). However, the article does not actually come out and say: "Thus, Washington was a deist". Is this a NOR/SYNT situation or not? I would appreciate an uninvolved opinion. Blueboar 15:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
If that's a matter of legitimate controversy (both words matter, I'd say) (and relevant to the article in question) then NPOV requires both sides of the issue to be presented, so a step backward can be taken and should be. It looks like this is a small part of something much larger. What's the best way you can find to resolve this - or can it be resolved? -- Minasbeede 20:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
If this question refers to the Abercrombie quotation it would seem that it is verifiable that Abercrombie said it. I don't think anyone would claim that Abercrobmie is the definitive source on Washington and religion and it's likely that Abercrombie meant no compliment by the words (and could have meant that Washington's actions sure looked like the actions of a deist, which Abercrombie deplored - both deism and looking like a deist by one's actions. The quotation as given doesn't indicate that Abercrombie spat but that seems very possibly to be the sense of his words.) The article itself seems to indicate the question of Washington being a deist is still "up in the air" and that overall message of the article would seem to neutralize any false interpretation or promotion in importance of what Abercrombie said. I'd not automatically delete the passage. -- Minasbeede 20:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I reverted recent POV-poshing aimed at giving more slack to artcles based solely on primary sources. This encourages a deplored practice to create aricles by "quote farming" from google searches. The reverted significant changes in policy must be thorougly discussed in the policy talk page. `' Míkka 15:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I restored it to the version that was last protected in part because it seemed like the only disinterested way I could act, given that I have argued for my own views here. If an editor who has not been involved want to change the protection, I won't object - but check with the page protection policy. We are uspposed to protect it at whatever version it is in when the conflict calls for protection. I think one could reasonably argue that with policies, reversion should be to the pre-conflict version. Anyway, it could be a touchy subject. i did what I thought was prudent and won't object if another admin has a better idea. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
COGDEn is bein disingenuous. The distinction between primary and secondary sources has been a stable component of this policy for most of its existence. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. COGDEN, if you want to change the policy make a formal proposal. In the meantime, just because you don't like the policy doesn't mean it should go. You do not have a veto over all of wikipedia. And since policies are the framework that guide the composition of articles, of course they have the greatest inertia. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:11, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
In this case, the disputed sections don't seem to guide anything, they just feed edit wars. Jacob Haller 19:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I do not kinow why the page was unprotected, but it was protected for a reason and i protected it again in the version it had originally been protected in. Mikka, do not screw with this. we have page protection rules for a reason and you have just proven the importance of our policy - bias the protection and you just unleash a new edit war. Now it is protected, nothing in the page has changed since it was firsdt protected by another editor, let's hash out conflicts here and reach consensus before unprotecting and changing the policy page. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
The very fact it is protected makes this very clear - the disputed tag is onloy needed for articles that are not protected, as people might think such articles are entirely uncontroversial. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
If you think I have a ocnflict of interest you are free to accuse me of that, but please note I protected the version that was protected before I became active here (i.e. I just extended the protection initially made by someone else). Would you have done it any other way? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, I made a careful determination, acted and explained myself on the talk page. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Plus I protected it at the version that was first protected at the time of the original edit war. In other words, I protected a version I had no stake in. All i was really doing was extending a protection another admin had made, because the issues that led to protection had not been resolved. But it is evident that the version I protected did not reflect my own edits or preferences. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Note: "Protection is not an endorsement of the current version (protection log)." Slrubenstein | Talk 20:11, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Can we at least keep the page stable enough that editors can mark all disputed sections? - for the sake of those reading disputed sections as well as to improve the debate. Jacob Haller 04:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
As usual, an editor is too lazy to read. Please take the monumental effort to shift your eyes up seven lines. A protected page is never the right version, and never the wrong version. It is the protection of a page in the middle of an edit war. It is by definition under contention. Anyone who wants to see what it looked like before protection can with the flick of a button. Awww, I guess that is too much work for some people. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, I realize that now ... Slrubenstein | Talk 20:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I was just alerted to this debate via a notice at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). As one who has not participated in the policy debate, I can say that somebody has made a royal mess of things here.
I'll bypass the questions of who has consensus, what version is protected, etc. People seem to be playing king of the hill regarding which version of policy language is consensus and which version is the new proposal, and I am in no position to decide who pushed who of that hill.
Returning to first principles, I believe it is a founding principle of Wikipedia that we are built on secondary sources. It is one of the five pillars. Jimmy Wales speaks on it at length. It is his reason for setting this up, and our reason for being here.
It is also indisputable that there are some occasions where primary or tertiary sources are allowable, and than a complete ban on them would be inappropriate. Also, there is room to disagree on the definition of what is primary versus tertiary, and whether various ways of gathering or surveying primary sources constitutes synthesis or original research.
My opinion is that those occasions should be very limited (you could use the word "rare" or whatever other descriptor), and not used when there is a suitable secondary source. They should be assigned to narrow categories for which criteria can be applied, and any individual instance of breaking the rule should be subject to a common sense test of whether it is really original research.
The page is protected for ten more days, which should be long enough to break a log jam. For those ten days it does not matter what the old consensus was or what language is approved. To focus the discussion, what should those "rare" occasions be? What occasions, if any, are uncontroversial (forget about old consensus - what has consensus here and now)? Which are the ones that need some debate? Where are the disputed boundaries of what is and is not a secondary source, or how to enforce and administer the rule?
If you think that's not worth restating for a know-nothing like me, fine. It's just hard for an outsider to know what's going on, and I see that some of the people in the thick of the debate may have lost sight of the broader question of what the policy ought to say, not just who followed correct procedure. Wikidemo 23:44, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Just to help cut through some of the "wordiness" mentioned above, it seems that the key dispute revolves around these two sentences. IMHO, this isn't about defending territory at all, but a dispute on how restrictive the wording should be on the use of primary sources. I agree we can make the policy more concise, but not at the expense of eliminating or diluting restrictions on the use of primary sources. Dreadstar † 00:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
And who is to say a secondary source is "rubbishy?" You? Your examination of primary sources reveals the secondary source to be rubbish? We should publish your own research rather than provide an account of what professional researchers have done? You have just proven that we need to make the distinction between primary and seconsary sources. In every criticism of the distinction that I have read, the argument is always, ultimatey, that "I" (the editor of Wikipedia) "know better than the secondary sources." That is original research, and it violates NPOV. It just proves that the people who are most frustrated by this policy are those who want to violate it. Well - good!! Slrubenstein | Talk 10:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I think what you are mainly proving is that this policy cannot stand alone. Which is true. NPOV and V remain as independent policies that must also be followed in editing articles. A final point: NPOV will never be achieved by just one editor or one source - if an article is lopsided in its use of secondary sources and thus is not NPOV, the solution is for other editors to do more research using other sources and add to it. There is no getting around that - no policy can address this issue, it is the very idea of a wikipedia: articles are always works in progress, never finished, and anyone can, should even has to edit to make it work. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
The only sense in which secondary sources were ever a significant part of the Wikipedia movement is in the fact that a Wikipedia article itself has to be a secondary source. It can't be a primary source about any topic, but it certainly can cite primary sources. All of Jimbo's statements about original research are about making sure that new ideas don't make it on Wikipedia unless first published in another source. The first source of publication is a primary source. If some crackpot physicist wants to write an article about a new physics, he has to publish first in a reputable journal. If he can do so, people are free to cite that journal article. When they do so, that citation is a primary source for the new idea.
The only other factor in which secondary sources has come to play a role in Wikipedia is the issue of notability. According to an apparent consensus, the existence of secondary sources is good evidence of notability. Once notability is established, however, one may cite primary sources as well. The notability criterion was never intended as a restriction on what sources you can cite concerning a notable topic. COGDEN 00:21, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
This gets the the heart of our policy: we editors do not forward our own arguments or views, no matter how many primary sources we marshall. This is not the place for original research. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Sigh... of course it is a sequitor, it follows from what came before it. First, Sambc wrote, "Whoah, Vassyana, are you seriously saying that no primary source is ever (or is from/in) a reliable third-party publication with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy?" Then, Vassyana wrote, "Raw data from published research should only be used in context, drawing upon evaluations of that data. If an interview is notable, it will be commented upon by a third-party source, but there should be little problem with a direct and relevant quote from said interview." Then I meade my comment, which in context I though was clearly the explanation for why Sambc is wrong, and Vassyana is right. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
That's okay, Sambc, it happens. I don't want to get bogged down in semantics (what does third party mean etc) - the point is, it is not our job to be fact-checkers for published sources. We can present facts even from primary sources, as long as we do so simply to report the facts - but not to argue against a published analysis/explanation/interpretation etc of those or similar facts. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Okay, this is the third protection (because previous ones expired, not because of a concensus) of the page in as many weeks, with no progress. This page is currently at around 173,000 bytes (characters), and most of it (I'd estimate 2/3) deal primarily with the "Sources" section. If other policies or guidelines had a similar section, I don't know, but it seems those would have had just as contentious a problem as we have here (with no end in sight). Just for this version of the talk page, we have over over 300 edits in just over a week.
So, rather than skirt around the issue yet one more time, with discussions about "Should this policy distinguish between primary and secondary sources?" or whatever, how about just one simple question:
Should this policy attempt to define the types of sources and their potential uses, or should this subject be more adequatley covered in a separate "article" (probably a guideline)? wbfergus 17:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I think this article should be self-contained, and, if anything is necessary to it, that thing should be in the article. I must also protest that some other editors make side-swipes against primary sources in a section reserved for "one simple question." Jacob Haller 18:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Remove the source typing from the policy. It neither works nor is even clear enough to be understood. The potential for harm is greater than the potential for good. -- Minasbeede 22:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
There is material about sources in these policies and guidelines:
I do not think we need more than that. If there are any discrepancies, please point them out. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that the policy should discuss sources in relation to original research. It should do so in harmony with existing policy and guidelines. Generally, there should be a distinction between modern reliable third-party sources and everything else. I think the primary/secondary distinction is problematic and widely misunderstood/abused. "Modern reliable third-party sources" would cover all the secondary and tertiary sources that should be used, as well as permit widely demanded "exceptions" for certain primary sources, such as scientific journal articles. Vassyana 19:18, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
It occurs to me that situations where a large number of policies/guidelines have equivalent material, especially where it becomes important for those to be in harmony, it makes sense to have this (be it the sources matter here, or anything else) defined in just one place - then it can never become contradictory. It can be linked or transcluded as necessary. With reference to this specific case, the definitions of sources should be in once place that all policies/guidelines that need to can refer or transclude, while this policy should then discuss the application of this (if any) to the policy on original research. Well, that's what makes sense to me. Everything being self-contained is a recipe for contradiction between them. SamBC( talk) 19:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I would demote the idea of types of sources to a background essay on reliability of sources. I would also demote the synthesis section in the same way. There is a clarity in No Original Research that is obscured by these different attempts to give examples of undesirable forms of OR. Spenny 00:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
This is a good objective. The question is, is it time to spin off the bulk of the content to a separate page? Our general practice is this: we work on main pages (whether articles or policies) until specific sections are good enough to spin off. As long as some editors feel that the no synthesis component of the policy can be improved - whether just in the style of the writing, or in the clarity of the conceptualization - it makes sense (and is common practice) to continue working on it as part of the main page (two reasons: it is the easiest way to ensure that, prior to spinning off, it is fully consistent with the main page - you know how easily it is for separate pages to become inconsistent; the more stable the version prior to spin-off the less danger of this); second, most people have a natural limit to the length of their watchlist and more people will pay attention to and comment on changes at NOR than at spin-off pages. So while I agree with you in principle, i think right now it is a premature move. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:43, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, I in corporatede COGDEN's suggestion into my proposal for the intro. If people agree it is an improvement, I would ask their permission to replace the current intro with my revised proposal - and thus move step-by-step. I would not unprotect the page (yet) - but neither would I add my revised proposed new intro unless there were general agreement that it would be a positive move. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The last thing this talk page, already too long and in need of archiving, needs is another section. it is there, people are commenting. I agree with you it is worth waiting a week. As a more neutral party would you keep an eye on it and let me or another admin know if/when you think it is appropriate to make the change to the policy page? Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 17:03, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Are taking two sourced numbers and performing a math calculation original research? See Talk:Jatropha. For instance calculating any data on a per capita basis by dividing the value by the published population. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 22:01, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
So then saying a 1 degree change in average global temperature is less than a 0.4% change in average global temperature is also OR? That takes no number from any source, uses the fact that for temperature in radiative processes the proper scale is the Kelvin scale, and uses the definition of percent. -- Minasbeede 22:23, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Calculation that are so trivial that they cannot be accepted for publication in a peer reviewed journal are not OR. We cannot consider calculations that are too difficult to follow for lay people but are trivial to experts as OR, because then such calculations could never be included in wikipedia. An example is this calculation of an integral. Count Iblis 17:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion, any calculation that could reasonably be challenged is probably OR, unless it's copied directly from a reliable source. Something that's truly trivial such as 2+2=4 will never be challenged. The per capita example given above could reasonably be challenged and shouldn't be included. Chaz Beckett 17:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I am inclined to agree with Count Iblis on this topic. Math formulas that are considered trivial to an expert in the said field of research are not OR. The decision of what is trivial must be made by consensus of contributors who are knowledgeable in the discussed field. This is similar to the consensus that is needed to verify the validity of sources or the use of such sources in any Wikipedia article. There can be no line drawn at what is "truly" or "absolutely" trivial as even a case such a 2+2=4 can be disputed on the grounds that the author does not assert a base 10 system. In a trinary system 2+2 != 4, rather 2+2 = 10. Thus in the absence of such assertions, one must have familiarity in the field to understand the assumptions being made, however trivial or complicated they may appear. Gsonnenf 02:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Reading over the discussion, the main issues people seem to have with primary sources revolve around 1) raw data, 2) historical/obsolete sources and 3) sources lacking analysis/interpretation and/or lacking editorial review of those claims. I am not necessarily proposing these are distinctions we should use in the policy. But rather, I'm inviting discussion of these points to see what distinctions we might arrive at to find a consensus for the policy.
Just some thoughts. What are yours? :) Vassyana 01:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Talking about various types of sources and their relative merits and demerits is interesting, but this does not address the subject of the policy - that editors should not add their own data and interpretations to articles. What types of sources publish useful and accurate data and interpretations, or what the editor's own ideas are based, on is not really all that relevant to this simple principle.
I think this discussion of various types of sources does not belong in the policy at all. Tim Vickers 03:32, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
e.g. Ludwig von Mises wrote a work arguing against centralized economic planning. He called centralized economic planning (regardless of whether it involved worker-ownership) socialism and worker-ownership (without central planning) syndicalism (and hastily dismissed the latter). Syndicalism proper, mutualism (economic theory), etc. and most other forms of libertarian socialism get grouped into syndicalism and excluded from socialism. Historically, all these have been considered socialism. This gets messy when Mises makes categorical statements condemning "socialism." It may not be clear whether these arguments apply to socialism as a whole or to socialism exclusive of syndicalism (etc.). Commentaries may inherit these definitions and face the same problem. Jacob Haller 02:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Per discussion, I revised the introduction, taking into account coments and edits by other people active here.
I would not like to propose to change the following section, "What is excluded." I have three problems with this. first, it opens up not with a statement about what is excluded, but with the motivation behind the policy, so the title of the section and part of the contents are inconsistent. Second, the list of what is excluded seems ad hoc. Third, following sections explain in greater detail what is excluded and why.
Here is what I propose: since we are still debating primary versus secondary sources and what is actually included and excluded, I suggest that instead of calling this section "What is excluded" let's follow the lead of the first sentence and make it a section about what motivated the policy i.e. its origins. Such a section can discuss things that have traditionally been excluded, but in the context of the history of the proposal. I think this explanation of the history would be educational.
ALL I am proposing right now is to change the second section. I am not proposing anything about the third or following sections (on sources and synthesis).
here is what I propose:
Origins of the policy
The core policy of Wikipedia, NPOV is meant to provide a framework whereby editors with diverse, often conflicting, even opposing points of view can collaborate on the creation of an encyclopedia. It does so through the principle that while it is often hard for people to agree as to what is the truth, it is much easier for people to agree as to what they and others believe to be the truth. Therefore, Wikipedia does not use "truth" as a criteria for inclusion. Instead, it aims to account for different, notable views of the truth. First codified in February 2002, the objective of the NPOV policy is to produce an unbiased encyclopedia.
In the year that followed a good deal of conflict on article talk pages involved accusations that editors were violating NPOV, and it became clear that this policy, which provided a philosophical foundation for Wikipedia, needed to be supplemented. Wikipedians developed the concept of " verifiability" as a way of ensuring the accuracy of articles by encouraging editors to cite sources; this concept was established as a policy in August 2003. Verifiability was also promoted as a way to ensure that notable views would be represented, under the assumption that the most notable views were easiest to document with sources. Notability is especially imortant because while NPOV encourages editors to add alternate and multipe points of view to an article, it does not claim that all views are equal. Although NPOV does not claim that some views are more truthful than others, it does acknowledge that some views are held by more people than others. Accurately representing a view therefore also means explaiing who holds the view and whether it is a majority or minority view.
Soon it became evident that editors who rejected a majority view would often marshall sources to argue that a minority view was superior to a majority view - or would even add sources in order to promote the editor's own view. Therefore, the NOR policy was established in 2003 to address problematic uses of sources. The original motivation for NOR was to prevent editors from introducing fringe views in science, especially physics - or from excluding verifiable views that, in the judgement of editors, were wrong . [1] It soon became clear that the policy should apply to any editor trying to introduce his or her own views into an article (and thus a way to distinguish Wikipedia from Everything 2). In its earliest form the policy singled out edits that:
for exclusion, and established that
as criteria for inclusion.
As before my attitude has been conservative, to try to preserve as much as the previous content as possible. I have attempted to make the layout more consistent and clearer. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
More than a day ago people were expressing support for the change, and I asked anyone if they objected. No one registered objection. If someone else wants to act as "gatekeeper" they can but I haven't made any changes without ensuring that people active in discussion on this page approved. That is what is important, I think. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Here is where the sources issue is under mediation. I hope that the talk on this page can be refactored in order to work with the mediation process. in the meantime - I look forward to commnents on my proposal, above, to replace the "what is excluded" section with the above "Origins of the Policy" section - and I repeat: I wrote this with an intention of not addressing the current debate over sources, but simply an attempt to rationalize and more clearly explain what is currently in section 2. PS thanks wbfergus, and Wikidemo Slrubenstein | Talk 13:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Last I looked 12 of 18 had agreed, 6 hadn't, and 2 of the 12 had withdrawn their agreement. It's not going to happen: the rules require unanimous agreement for mediation to occur. -- Minasbeede 17:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Leaving asside the debates on current wording and definitions for a moment, I want to focus for a moment on why I think having a section that discusses primary and secondary sources (in some form) is important and useful. As we currently define the term, primary sources are things that do not contain analysis, interpretations and conclusions ... things like raw data, eye witness reporting, original documents etc. I think we are all agreed there are situations where quoting such a source is both useful and appropriate. However, because primary source materials do not contain any analysis, interpretation or conclusions, they have to be used with great caution. It takes a very skilled editor to use a primary source material without interpreting, analying or making a conclusion from it. Since whole point of this policy is that editors should not put their own thinking and conclusions into articles, but should instead report on and cite the thinking of others (preferably the best experts in the field) we need to caution editors about this potential problem. We need a statement that explains the pitfalls of using primary source material in an article. It is a caution and explanation, not an out right ban. Blueboar 13:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I was indicating that the quotation represented policy creep. There has been policy creep. I have already acknowledged to blueboar that I did not interpret his remarks as meaning he opposed all thought. The point is that if there's a continual equation of "own thinking" with "forbidden original research" that goes too far and it will end up being that all thought is forbidden because that is "original research," and that could happen because editors were insufficiently attentive to what words in or about policy really mean. Simple logic, a form of thinking recognized and valued for millenia, is currently forbidden by the "synth" section of the current NOR policy. That to me is policy creep and is harmful to Wikipedia. I think that policy creep was done by a minority and should be undone. I very much oppose further policy creep and I am clearly fully entitled to do so and be so. I did screw up: I should have said in my comments what I finally did say to blueboar, which is visible to all on his talk page.
If what I have said has served to alert other editors to the danger of policy creep I am more pleased than sorry. My regret is the failure to adequately indicate that I was not aiming my remarks at blueboar, who is doing a superlative job, even though he and I appear to disagree. -- Minasbeede 19:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, and I was the one who asked him. And he and I often disagree - it doesn't mean I don't value his views. But his views carry no moe weight than any other editor. I provide people with my reasons for my views (as does Tim); I never ask that my views be given more weight than others because of my credentials. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I support having some sort of statement concerning classification of sources somewhere: I just don't think the place is here and the time is now, because we don't have a consensus, and these factors concern not just WP:OR, but WP:NPOV, as well as WP:Notability. I think there are a lot of good suggestions that could quickly be crafted into a guideline, however. COGDEN 19:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Quite often, a primary source includes both the raw data and some context and interpretation, and fairly often, a secondary source includes some raw data as well. I don't see why it's a primary/secondary issue. Jacob Haller 19:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
There's a dispute at the article on the term " Anchor baby" concerning whether "common sense" interpretations of quotations that mention the term can be used to define the term. Some sources comment on the term and how it's used, and there's no question that those sources are allowed. It's the sources that use the term without commenting on it that are in question. My belief is that doing so is the equivalent of interpreting a primary source. Some other editors believe that we'll never find a source saying that the term is used in a certain way and that NPOV requires we include that usage, therefore it is aceptable to use our interpretations of the quotations. Do regulars here have any thoughts on this type of issue? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
We have sources which use "anchor baby" in an apparently neutral, news-reporting context, but these sources don't come out and say they consider the term to be neutral. Some of us say such sources validly illustrate the expression being used neutrally and are appropriate for inclusion (indeed, that they must be included for the sake of NPOV). Others of us insist, in effect, that unless a source explicitly, literally says something like "'anchor baby' is not a pejorative term", or "some people use 'anchor baby' in a neutral context", it is utterly useless as evidence either way, since we have no right to infer what the source says about pejorativeness and would be violating WP:NOR if we were to attempt to do so. The "it's always pejorative" camp then says that since no sources (at least, none they recognize) can be found to support any other view, we have a duty to say that "anchor baby" is pejorative without qualification. The "it's sometimes neutral" camp complains that accepting only neutral sources that explicitly call themselves neutral is a standard that no real-world source can realistically be expected to meet, and that failing or refusing to acknowledge that some people are genuinely using the expression in a neutral manner is a violation of WP:NPOV. We've been stuck on this OR-vs.-NPOV argument for several weeks now, despite a CfR, with each side insisting its understanding of the Wikipedia core principles is correct, and without any signs of anyone being willing to budge. Richwales 23:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I think this is a classic case where Wikipedia struggles with rebuttal. Initially I assumed this referred to children who were offspring of sailors in foreign ports. If that were so then I could see a trail that would lead me to viewing the term as offensive slang. However, if it is simply a term derived from the sense of anchoring the family in the country, then it is a harder call. I can both see that it could be offensive (with the implication of unwanted child and so on) though in that sense I could see that although it might be insensitive, it is potentially not pejorative. So as an editor, having Googled around, I am sympathetic and I can see that the term is widely enough used that it is reasonable to conclude that there should not be an issue with qualifying the statement.
This is a case where the OR principle struggles as with any potentially offensive interpretation it may be that there is a motivation to document the problem, where there is no motivation to assert the acceptability: perhaps a strongly nationalistic Welshman might find the term British offensive, but who will go around documenting directly that calling a Welshman British is not offensive, though they will document that it is a legitimate attribution. You simply will not find the direct information, especially if the view is not held to be worthy of rebuttal due to its obviously extremist position.
My view is that in this case, there are good grounds for recognising that the policy is being used (with good faith) to assert a point of view. There is a conflict between NOR and NPOV, there has been a good faith attempt to justify the dispute and a sound editorial judgement would allow for a phrasing that recognised the contentiousness of the assertion that the term is pejorative and it should therefore be qualified. Spenny 09:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I created the article Blackburn, Aberdeenshire. It's a sizable commuter village for Aberdeen but if you read the article you'll see that I said that it has an industrial estate. I could not find a citation referring to this specific fact, but it is completely true. There are online sites for the companies in the industrial estate, but nothing actually mentions that Blackburn industrial estate exists. I may have violated NOR here, what do you think?-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 13:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
We seem to be making a bit of progress ... So it might be helpful to see where we agree as a basis upon which to discuss things further.
To start: Can we agree that the intent of the Sources section is to caution users about misusing certain materials in a way that violates NOR? And can we agree that the policy should include such a caution? Blueboar 14:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
OK... If I understand the comments, it seems that we have agreement that some sort of cautionary statement is useful and perhaps even needed. Now we move to areas where I expect disagreement will begin to crop up... but let's see where it happens. next two questions: 1) Can we agree that, in practice, it is common for editors who violate Cogden's two principals to do so by misusing what I call primary material (taken from any type of "source"). 2) Can we agree that it is more common for them to do so using material taken from what the policy now calls a "primary source"? Blueboar 16:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
We might, perhaps, be able to agree that what the kind of editor who is the source of all this might be doing is something that could be perfectly valid were the editor to do it in a scholarly journal. Wikipedia is not to be the place where new ideas first appear: that's what NOR is about. Wikipedia, through the NOR policy, excludes all such material without paying attention to whether it would or would not be valid in a scholarly journal. It might also be that the editor is doing something that no scholarly journal would ever publish. Excluding whatever it is the editor is doing from Wikipedia is unrelated to the quality of the material. If it's novel Wikipedia doesn't want it, Wikipedia is prejudiced against it solely because it is novel. It is not Wikipedia's business to analyze the quality of the material, to conclude whether or not it is a proper or improper use of primary (or any other) material. If the result is a novel idea Wikipedia rejects it, good or bad. -- Minasbeede 18:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Maybe this is the heart of the source-typing issue (if not, clue me in.) It would reasonable to me to accept that if a Wikipedia article says (X is Y) or says (X is not Z) that NPOV would make proper any verifiable evidence that indicates (X is not Y) or that (X is Z.) It's reasonable to me because once you categorize X in some way there is an implicit opposite category. The idea of the potential for the existence of that implicit opposite category is not novel. If it's asserted that John Doe is hairy then either all the evidence indicates that or it doesn't. The assertion creates the issue of whether or not John Doe is hairy (and if the assertion exists in Wikipedia we can assume that the topic is notable, else it shouldn't be there.)
But if a long line of secondary sources all say (X is Y) or (X is not Z) then there would be those who assert that the opposite view, if unsourced as a view, is OR. If Wikipedia claims that John Doe is hairy is it OR to produce evidence that shows John Doe to be essentially hairless even if there is no source that explicitly states "John Doe is essentially hairless"? Is it a "novel" idea that John Doe could be hairless when the statement has been made that he is hairy? That he is hairy is a POV. An editor finds verifiable evidence that counters that POV. He wants to put it into the article to counter the apparently erroneous assertion, as is proper under NPOV.
I understand that John Doe could have been hairy once and essentially hairless another time, I understand that "hairy" might mean, to some, "has some quantity of hair, no matter how small," I understand that there could even be confusion over which John Doe the statement was made about. All of those could be considered in deciding what the article should ultimately say. The question is whether saying John Doe is hairy creates the implicit concept "John Doe is not hairy" and since that concept exists it is not, for Wikipedia, a novel idea. Evidence for "not hairy" as applied to John Doe is fully legitimate within the Wikipedia policies of V, NPOV, if Wikipedia claims John Doe is hairy - even if there are dozens of secondary sources that make that claim. -- Minasbeede 18:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
If this is the heart of the source typing issue... then there is fundamental misunderstanding of how the core policies work going on. V, NPOV, and NOR are all core policies. One does not "over rule" the other. If a statement or citation has a flaw with any one of them, the statement or citation may not be used. In this case... you may not put something that violates NOR into an article, just to satisfy NPOV. Blueboar 20:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Suppose I were to write an article on "Assault weapons" (there is one, but for my illustration assume that I am writing it fresh)... In that article I want to discuss the different laws about assault weapons around the world. Now suppose I write:
This is a proper use of a citation to a primary source document - the US Constitution. No OR is involved because I am using it simply to reference itself. The interpretive statement (that the Constitution guarantees the right to own assault weapons) is attributed to a different source - one external to Wikipedia.
But if I were to write:
This would be an improper use of the citation to the primary document. I am interpreting the Constitution for myself, and concluding that it applies to assault weapons. It may or it may not... but, as a Wikipedia editor, I can not make that determination in my article. It is OR to do so.
Unfortunately, I see far too much of the second type of useage of citation. This is the kind of thing that the Sources secton is trying to prevent. I hope everyone would agree that we want to discourage such usages. However, because the primary source (the constitution) can be used appropriately (as per the first usage), we are getting caught up in semantics and debates over the terms like "Primary" and "source". Blueboar 20:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
In Spenny's example, if the government survey asked the question "Does the Constitution guarantee the right to own assault weapons?" or anything like that ("...rifles, handguns, and even assault weapons?") and the answers showed that 55% of those surveyed said "yes" it's hard to accept that an editor can't represent that 55% as "many people." Even if only the raw data were presented and (for simplicity with the numbers) 55,000 said "yes," 40,000 said "no," and 5000 said "don't know" it would still seem that an editor could say "many people" had the belief. I recognize that survey methodology can be attacked but the editor didn't design the survey, he's just reporting what it said, and "many people" does not seem to misrepresent the results of the survey. The editor has engaged in no "original research" by any reasonable interpretation of the term. If the editor had said "an overwhelming majority" that's a misrepresentation. If the editor had said that "many people, well-versed in the principles of the Constitution and vigorously defending their rights under it" the editor would clearly be going beyond the content of the source and adding personal opinion. There's also nothing about the example that requires the editor to have found those numbers in the government survey itself. The editor might have found the numbers in a secondary source. (If the editor extracted survey results from a secondary source there is the possibility that the secondary source engaged in "original research" in its presentation. That seems to be why historians prefer going to primary sources.)
If the question asked about "personal firearms" it would probably misrepresent the survey to say the people believed the Constitution granted a right to own assault weapons. Assault weapons may be personal firearms but the question was more general. It's a misrepresentation to claim that the opinion of the many about "personal firearms" was meant by the respondents to include a particular class of "personal firearms."
I agree with Spenny's point. If the survey asked about "assault weapons" and can be seen to have produced answers consistent with "many people" then I think it is fully proper to include that material even though the source doesn't have the precise words "many people thought that it was a constitutional right to own an assault weapon." It is not original research to report, using common mathematical techniques or different words with a compatible meaning, what the report actually said. I think Spenny's point is that some over-literal individuals would attempt to mischaracterize a simple, valid, straightforward restating of the reports content as forbidden "original research." I share his concern, and I think that there has been scant attention to this point of view on the part of those who want to retain source (material) typing. I see no wall to prevent such over-reaction, I may even sense a desire to institutionalize such over-reaction. This is a legitimate concern and it largely is being ignored, which is improper in a quest for consensus. -- Minasbeede 16:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Since people like my phrase "primary material"... I thought I would see what the current section would look like if all we did was substitute "material" for "source" (with a minimum of tweeking of other bits to make it make sense). This isn't really a proposal... but take a read and tell me if this is more along the lines of what we want to say in this policy: Blueboar 23:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Primary, secondary, and tertiary materials
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" the sources or use the material in them in novel ways. Such material may be divided into three categories:
Primary materials are documents and data that do not contain analytical, interpretive or conclusionary statements. An eyewitness account of a traffic accident is primary material. United Nations Security Council resolutions are primary materials. Primary materials that have been published within a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but great care must be taken when doing so, because it is easy to misuse such material. Any interpretation of primary material requires citation to a source that has done so. Examples of primary materials include archeological artifacts; photographs; historical documents such as diaries, census results, video or transcripts of surveillance, public hearings, trials, or interviews; tabulated results of surveys or questionnaires; written or recorded notes of laboratory and field experiments or observations; and artistic and fictional works such as poems, scripts, screenplays, novels, motion pictures, videos, and television programs.
Secondary materials are those that draw on primary materals to make generalizations or interpretive, analytical, concusions or synthetic claims. A journalist's story about a traffic accident or about a Security Council resolution is a secondary source, assuming the journalist was not personally involved in either. An historian's interpretation of the decline of the Roman Empire, or analysis of the historical Jesus, are secondary materials. Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary materials for any statements of analysis, interpretation or conclusion.
Tertiary materials are publications such as encyclopedia articles that sum up other secondary materials, and sometimes primary materials. (Wikipedia itself would fall into this category.) Some tertiary materials are more reliable than others - some articles may be more reliable than others. For example, articles signed by experts in Encyclopaedia Britannica and encyclopedias of similar quality can be regarded as reliable secondary materials instead of tertiary ones. Unsigned articles may be less reliable, but they may be used so long as the encyclopedia is a high quality one.
A Wikipedia article or section of an article that relies on primary materials should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on primary materials should be careful to comply with both conditions.
I'd like to see some sources for this division of sources.
When I was a first-years in university, when studying "use of libraries and sources", I learned:
I'm somewhat puzzled that scientific sources aren't even *mentioned* in the above discussion of sources.
Maybe I'm just a Science-biased crazy-type person, but like, can someone explain to me?
And how can we pretend to be a reliable encyclopedia on scientific subjects if we don't know how to deal with scientific sources?
Or am I just stupid, and has this been handled someplace way back in the archives? (can someone point me to the relevant archive?)
-- Kim Bruning 01:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Scientific papers are mostly standardized the world over, and they always contains analysis. I did a quick google for "structure of a scientific article", and the first random hit I checked was already pretty decent: [5]
Since these documents are made to exacting standards, I tend to trust them quite a lot more as a source than practically any other form of document. Especially once they are peer reviewed. -- Kim Bruning 21:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
A. Is the typing of sources that is advocated
(1) intended to be for the education of editors before they edit
or
(2) intended to be used by other editors to challenge material inserted by other editors alert other editors to a problem and correct material that is OR?
B. Why must this be part of a policy rather than part of a guideline?
-- Minasbeede 02:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. -- Minasbeede 14:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. Wording changed per your suggestion. -- Minasbeede 14:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I see it's been recently discussed by others ( #Math calculations) which math calculations are allowed and which are not. It would be nice if a section on this topic was added to the article.
Some of the numbers I work with in birth control articles may need to be altered to fit the context of the article - a 2% failure rate is the same as a 98% effectiveness rate, for example. I don't think anyone would consider this type of calculation as OR; personally, I think it's more like paraphrasing.
Some of the contraception articles source the prevalence of the method in the United States to numbers from the National Survey of Family Growth. Table 60 (on p.111) shows that 27% of women age 15-44 using contraception are using female sterilization, 18% condoms, etc. The less popular methods were grouped into "other" in Table 60. Their prevalence rates can be calculated by taking the number from the total population from Table 58, and dividing by the number of the population using contraception (from Table 59, this is 61.9%). Is this original research? I would tend toward saying no, since it's just using the same calculation the paper authors used for table 60, and is using the same source data the paper authors used (another table in the same publication on the same survey).
But this use was challenged, and there doesn't seem to be an entirely relevant section on this policy page. The person who challenged cited the synthesis section, but the source is in relation to the topic at hand and the calculation is not being used to advance a position. The topic of mathematical calculations is obviously relevant to this policy, but I'm not sure the current sections provide sufficient guidance as to which calculations are allowed and which are not.
I feel a little silly not being able to interpret the policy page and having to ask on the talk page to see if edits I'd like to make follow policy (or not). In addition to answering my question above, I would appreciate opinions on adding a new policy section along the lines of this:
Lyrl Talk C 16:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Here is an interesting issue. I am currently working up some material on the origins of the fraternal group know as the Freemasons (doing so off wiki at the moment - I'm still in the source gathering stage - so I don't have an article to link to for you.) The issue is this... there are a bunch of competing theories about where the Freemasons came from... some scholars say the fraterinty grew out of the Medieval stone mason's guilds, others that it developed from the medieval Knights Templar, some even place it's origins as far back as ancient Egypt or the Celtic Druids. In my article, I am attempting to discuss all of these theories seriously, making note of who says what, the popularity and reputation each theory, and what the pros and cons of each theory are. For each one, I have reliable sources that demonstrate its flaws and problems. But now comes the potentially OR part... I would like to finish up my article by saying something along the lines of "All of these theories have gaps, and none have been definitively proven to be true. For the moment the origins of Freemasonry remain "unknown"." I would be happier if I had a source that actually said this... but most of the reliable sources focus on either "proving" one theory or another, or "disproving" one theory or another... I don't think anyone has ever actually said that none of them are definitive. It is a logical conclusion when you examine all of the scholarship, but one that I would say is OR for me to make. However... the policy currently is silent on stating a non-conclusion (unless you call it a conclusion of "No Conclusion"). Would you agree that adding a conclusion of "no conclusion" is a form of OR, or do you feel that such logical comments are ok? (and should we add something more definitive about this to the policy, or is it already covered?) Blueboar 19:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Are we agreed that what the policy should be talking about is material... and not entire sources. Such material might be the entire source (such as a court transcript or a historical document) or it might be part of a source (such as the data section of a scientific research paper) ... but what is OR is the misuse of the material? Blueboar 21:03, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
How about just saying what we mean? Say "uninterpreted raw data" versus "interpretation of that raw data" instead of "primary" versus "secondary"? As in: Uninterpreted raw data is to be used sparingly and always in connection with properly sourced interpretation of that raw data. Any interpretation of the raw data that is not actually in any of the sources cited is called "original research" at Wikipedia and is not acceptable content for a Wikipedia article. WAS 4.250 00:43, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Hmm. A birthdate is raw data. A quotation is raw data. All photos are raw data. So are you really sure any of this is what you mean to say? - Jmabel | Talk 02:43, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Excellent points. How about:
ChazBeckett is completely right, which is why once again I have to wonder whether minasbeede doesn't just reject this policy. I am not sure why this is "moving the discussion forward" and no "back to basics" but let's be less hypothetical. A good number of academic disciplines do source-baes research. I won't quibbl over semantics like sources of materials, I am making a specific point. Historians and Comp. Lit people are what I am thinking of, but you can add some political scientists and economists. An historian has read the Gospels as well as other documents from the early perio of Roman occupied palestine (about 50 BCE to 135 CE) and publishes a book or article in a peer-reviewed journal making claims about Jesus. An editor says, "I have read the Gospels and the historian is wrong." Now, the historian will agree with the editor of Wikipedia that the Gospels say X. But the historian and Wikipedia editor disagree over how to interpret X and how much weight to give it. I say, to make this a superb encyclopedia we need to trust as authoritative (not "the truth," but having some value based on the training of the author and the research that went into writing the book or article, as well as the formal process such as peer-review through which the book or article was vetted) the views of published scholars. And no matter what the Gospels say, and how much of the Gospels the editor has memorized, this is not the place for the editor to argue that the historian is wrong. A literary scholar writes a book analyzing Shakespeare. An editor has read Hamlet, and has a different interpretation, and has arguments and evidence from not just t he version of the play widely published but early folios the editor read at the Folger library. I do not question that the editor read those folios. This is still not the place for the editor to add to an article "However, the x edition of Hamlet reads .... which contradicts this scholar's argument" or "However, if one compares Hamlet and Macbeth, another interpretation is compelling. No. If an editor wants to argue with a published researcher, they should wubmit an article to a peer-reviewed journal - not use Wikipdia to in effect publish his or her own views. Or, I have a graph indicating changes in GDP around the world over the past thirty years. I think this graph proves that democratic countries have healthier economies. An economist or political scientist may say, no, you don't understand the equations by which that chart was compiled, which are insufficient for your claims. And I say "No, the chart makes it very clear, look, I am just going to say democatic countries have x% growth or y% below the poverty line, and non-democratic countries ..." and a political scientist says that no, we can't interpret the chart to involve causality and here is why: .... These are the kinds of examples we actually encounter in editing Wikipedia. The point is that many fields of study require people to spend years learning how to analyze texts appropriately, and then diferent experts fight it out in trying to get their books and articles published. An encyclopedia should value the work that they do, and base itself on that work, when relevant. I've seen too many editors who think they understand what a text (source, material) means and conclude that the published secondary source (or whatever you want to call it) written by a scholar from a particular discipline is just mistaken - when in fact it is the editor who is mistaken, who does not understand the discipline or the source material. Aside from everything else, NOR (like NPOV) requires a certain humility on the part of its editors: we do not decide who is right or wrong, or what is the truth and what isn't. We defer to others - to verifiable sources. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:11, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Minasbeede rejects something, but it's not the policy. Minasbeede embraces the policy as worded before the source typing appeared. -- Minasbeede 18:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Blueboar is doing fine. I regret the distraction from his efforts. -- Minasbeede 18:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I find much of the discussion here very confusing ("non-Y-ness"?). Yes, I agree that the issue is misuse of sources. I also agree that, in general, "If an editor wants to argue with a published researcher, they should submit an article to a peer-reviewed journal; however, I also think that this cannot be followed blindly." Certainly this is the case for science, interpretation of history, etc.
However, I find it silly when (as occurred, for example) someone uses an outdated newspaper article to claim that there is a bicycle shop in Wedgwood, Seattle, Washington. I live there. It's gone. A dance studio is now at the same address, but it still requires some synthesis — or simply walking down the street — to establish that there is no longer a bicycle shop in the neighborhood. I want to make sure that we do not disparage this sort of common sense correction as unacceptable "original research". It is presumably impossible to find a "reliable source" that postitively asserts that the neighborhood lacks a bicycle shop. At some point, presuming good faith has to trump formalities.
Let me give a potentially more controversial, but similar, example. Edward Said's obituary for Ibrahim Abu-Lughod, which we cite in that article, misspells the name of Abu-Lughod's daughter "Deena" as "Dina". Deena Abu-Lughod is now (or at least when I last checked) an academic at the New School in NYC. Normally, Said would be an excellent source on his friend's daughter's name; however, he (or his editor) misspelled it. I happen to be quite sure of how to spell it, because we were in college together, and I'm quite certain she's his daughter because I had once been to their home in Chicago in May 1977. Given that I have no track record of falsification, how many hoops should I really need to jump through here?
In short, while I think this is a generally good policy, I'm very concerned about how it can be applied too mechanically and/or used by wikilawyers to make an awful lot of extra work for knowledgable contributors, wasting time that would be far better spent other ways… or simply driving knowledgable contributors away.
As I've written here, part of the problem is more or less epistemological. Some people seem to think that an encyclopedia article can be generated by following a set of rules, even by someone relatively ignorant of the topic at hand and of general principles of research. I think that is seldom the case.
We need standards that clearly exclude people from using Wikipedia to publish their novel scientific theories, their original interpretations of history, or even their factual claims in areas likely to be controversial. We do not need a standard that prevents people who appear to be operating in good faith from making simple statements of presumably uncontroversial fact, making presumably uncontroversial syntheses, or making minor factual corrections to inadequately researched or poorly edited/proofread sources. - Jmabel | Talk 18:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry. In the context of "X is Y" non-Y-ness means that the counter statement, "X is not Y" is implicit in "X is Y." In the context of this disucssion all I mean is that if someone says "X is Y" ("John Doe is hairy", with Y being "Hairy") it's not introduction of anything novel to cite a source (which I'll call "something") that shows John Doe is not hairy. Not being hairy is no-Y-ness here. The claim being made is that an editor can't do that, he can only say words like "Richard Roe says, based on (something) that John Doe is not hairy." Same source. The editor can't look at it and determine that it indicates John Doe isn't hairy, he has to quote Richard Roe, who looks at the same evidence and says the same thing.
It looks like we have areas of substantial agreement: your last two paragraphs, for example. -- Minasbeede 19:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Slrubenstein asked me for my views on the recent discussions here.
While I think the "primary material" vs. "primary sources" issue is valid, I think we need (1) to get back to basics and (2) to recognize that this cannot be reduced to formulae. The "NOR" policy was originally about keeping crackpot pseudo-science out of Wikipedia. It seems entirely appropriate to restrict opinions, syntheses, etc., to those attributable to a person or organization that would normally be considered an authority and to a general requirement that factual claims be cited from reliable sources (largely covered by other standards and guidelines, but an "OR" issue arises when we have to choose between conflicting sources).
In general, "OR" becomes a much more important issue in areas that are potentially controversial. The sophistic arguments I've often seen here questioning sources in matters where there is no legitimate controversy strike me as a juvenile waste of :time. While it is nice to have a citation for the statement that "avenues" in Midtown Manhattan run north-south, presumably there are enough people who can verify this from their own knowledge that the lack of a citation is no big deal.
On the other hand, there can be potentially controversial issues of fact, not only of interpretation. If someone wanted to claim that a particular Manhattan avenue carries the most traffic, that would absolutely call for citation from a reliable source. Many sources would be legitimate prima facie: a news article in a mainstream newspaper, a document from the city government, a book from a mainstream commercial or academic press on transport in New York, etc. If, however, someone else came up with a second source that would normally be considered comparably reliable and that disagrees, there is no "formula" to solve this: some original thought will be required. We would want to mention the clashing views and to cite both; it is still going to be a judgment call whether both go in the mainline equally, or one is consigned to a footnote, or what.
There are areas where primary documents are to be preferred; there are other areas where secondary documents are to be preferred. Consider, for example, writing about the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen (a rather thin article at the moment). It would seem to me that:
To come at this from a different angle, different sourcing standards apply in different areas, and even to different facts in the same area. Judgment will always be needed, and this judgment should not called "original research" in any disparaging sense. For example:
I could go on, but I'll try to cut to the chase:
- Jmabel | Talk 04:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I say this: BellMJ, in the month or two you have been here you have not contributed to any articles. I suggest you get some actual expeience researching and making contributions to articles that stand the test of time, and have more experience collaborating with editors working on aticles, before you try to comment on our core policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Well i am there in the same time, i have contribued to many articles and still i would try to comment 'core policies' but with this terms:
"Be bold" (which is part of the Wikipedia system.) The focus should be on the product and on whether it is or isn't appropriate and not on the rules. The rules exist to help make the product be appropriate and to ease the process of making it be so. What you suggest looks like it could work, provide it's not taken as an iron law. --Minasbeede
Overall, apart this, if someone believes that 'policies' will override the competence, good will, good faith, proficience in specific fields and consensus+bold+IAR, then he wanted to build a burcocracy (with many arrows in the ands to who wants to demolish some unliked articles) and not an encyclopedy. By the beginnings of the time who writes an encyclopedia adds personal toughs, and surely now that there are 6 billions humans many of them linked with interet we will see a different, silly way to act, that scraps some foundamentals capabilities of human mind. As example you cannot seriously ask to not insert original syntesis/tough while you ask to editors to re-editing an existent source to avoid Copyviol or resume an entire book in a single article. It's simply impossible. Or Wiki buys already 'secondary sources' that, as example, resumed the 'War and peace' novel, or buy directly the right to post it. Asking to someone to resume this or whetever opera with own words and asking to do it without personal tough is simply impossible. Parithetic revision, comments, discussions are the only way to prune some 'excess'. If not, if there are, as usually are not so many, persons involved to talk about an article, then there is not policy that can be used instead, and NOR is IMO, the most absurd (as often used) to all. Let's understand this, it's simply a countersense ask to one to think enough to resume 100 pages of 10 different sources in an article and then accuse him to have made 'OR'! It's like to say that 'thinking' is a crime. Stefanomencarelli.
Yes, I have been fairly paraphrased above. But, no, these are not straw men. Bad-faith, juvenile wikilawyering over things like those I describe here constitute a large part of why I am much less active in Wikipedia than I used to be. - Jmabel | Talk 18:47, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I totally agree with Jmabel's analysis above, which I think is a great summary of the way things work in Wikipedia. We don't want to over-generalize about different types of sources. Determining which source is the best one is not something amenable to simple rules like "primary sources should be rare", or "secondary sources should be primarily relied upon". While there might eventually be enough consensus for a guideline on these issues, there's certainly none now, and I think the best direction we can take right now is to focus on the fundamentals: what original research is, and what constitutes "going beyond" a source to inject into the article ones' own unpublished ideas. COGDEN 18:48, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
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I have been trying to edit the intro section for clarity and brevity - I also changed the "nutshell" based on a comment by Tim. I want to propose changing the intro of the actual policy to the following, and I will not do it unless there is general agreement.
My approach has been conservative - to change content as little as possible, but to streamline.
Here goes:
This page in a nutshell:
|
Original research (OR) is a term used in Wikipedia to refer to unpublished facts, arguments, concepts, statements, or theories. The term also applies to any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that appears to advance a position — or, in the words of Wikipedia's co-founder Jimmy Wales, would amount to a "novel narrative or historical interpretation."
Any strong objections? Slrubenstein | Talk 14:23, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Approve:
I approve, with the exception that the word "established" is adding something to verifiability that is not there. Verifiability requires sourcing and verifiability requires that reliable sources be used. In almost all cases what is added will be material that is "established" (which seems normal and right) and I agree with the concept that Wikipedia is not the place to introduce willy-nilly challenges to what is established. If the word "established" were removed the section would be beautiful. I'd prefer that to further discussion about whether "established" belongs. That could be discussed later, along with the discussion on source typing and the discussion on synthesis. This is an opportunity for forward motion. Forward motion would be wonderful. -- Minasbeede 17:42, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The NPOV policy says this about facts; "By "fact" we mean "a piece of information about which there is no serious dispute."" For the modifier for "fact" I guess you would not object to changing "established" to "undisputed?" Slrubenstein | Talk 09:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The current intro discusses the relationship between NOR and NPOV and V (just as the intro to NPOV discusses V and NOR, and the intro to V discusses NPOV and NOR). The above is only meant to replace the introduction as I stated before. I think it is reasonable to take a conservative approach and continue to place this policy in the context of the other two major content policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 09:54, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Disapprove:
Slrubenstein, you said "Jacob Haller, I doubt your vote should even count since you reject the very existence of anNOR policy and, it seems, NPOV too." That is a personal attack, and it is false.
Do people agree that ASF would be a better description of NPOV in the context? Jacob Haller 19:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
No. This is just another one of your transparent attempts to make an end run around NOR. Give it up. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I do not believe I am misrepresenting NPOV. However, you do single out one important point of NPOV and in the spirit of compromise I have, as you asked, added it to point two of my proposal. I modified the wording a bit, because it has been taken out of context and thus needs a little explaining, but i think what i did honors the spirit of your request. Slrubenstein | Talk 00:59, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I like the new version - especially the reference to undisputed facts. I would recommend:
Strictly speaking, NPOV concerns the last one.
I might suggest:
If you prefer. Jacob Haller 17:38, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
The point about directly related is in bold in the original, so I've boldly bolded it here to retain the emphasis on this essential point. The "undisputed facts" seems confusing when it's divorced from the more detailed explanation, after all the age of the earth is hotly disputed, the point is that for our purposes it's a fact that various verifiable sources give statements about the age of the earth. To me it would be much clearer to have "encourages editors to add verifiable published facts..." ... dave souza, talk 09:39, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I have made changes based on some comments, and others have made some edits. For the sake of moving on, can I replace the current introduction with this? As anywhere in Wikipedia, nothing is permanent, I really only ask if people agree this is better than the current intro. if so, I will make the change and we can continue discussing other issues. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:10, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
I'd pare back the paragraphs on Verifiability and on NPOV to the minimum. Referring to the other two policies is about all that is needed here and it is in those other two policies that the explication of each need be done. I think lurking in all this is the principle that V doesn't trump NOR and NPOV (etc.), which is true. The policies stand together. If the language in NOR can be made smoother by whittling some of it away that's all to the good. I am not advocating whittling away V or NPOV, only simplification. As these are core policies it would be almost essential that if language about any other policy appears here it would have to exactly mirror the policy as explained in its own section: anything else leads to confusion. So if it appears and is done right it's just an echo and that ought not to be necessary: you don't succeed as an editor by following only one policy or just two of them: it's all three that have to be satisfied. None of the policies has to carry any weight for the others: they carry their own weight. Expressing the need to adhere to all three is surely something that ought be expressed in all three, but that's about it.. Even that's a bit redundant but it's probably appropriate and it shouldn't add a large number of words.
I have an issue with "in any way" but I'd leave it in. "In any way" is almost a stand-in for the synthesis section (and the extreme interpretation it represents) and that section could (and surely will) be discussed once the current issue is resolved. That discussion can determine the fate of "in any way."
There is visible forward motion. Thank you, Slrubenstein. -- Minasbeede 15:44, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I think I understand the concern over the NPOV point. It should lead with balance. Adding facts is about NOR or V. A reorder might work well to resolve.
There is ambiguity over the way it says you cannot add your own point of view. So I want to write that the world is round - that is my view point. Again the point is to ensure balance, which a group of editors might achieve. The danger is that you may not be able to evolve an article with this writing.
Final comment is that I would phrase and editors should try to familiarize themselves with all three simply as content must comply with all three. That avoids the lack of prescriptiveness which is actually a requirement, it is weasely at the moment. Spenny 17:33, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
I do not. What I wrote is a pretty straightforward summary of NPOV - it includes more than minasbeede wants, because there is more to NPOV than Minasbeede suggests. And if you do not know by now, you should: NPOV is non-negotiable and dictated by the Foundation. If you think there is some overlap between NOR, V and NPOV, you are right and there is a good reason: NPOV is the core, the rootstock, and NOR and V grew out of it. I think it is essential to explain NPOV in a way that people see how NOR has its roots in NPOV, and what is what I did - while being guided by what NOR actually says.
I think people are - with good intentions I am certain - quibbling right now. Vassyana has just appealed for mediation. I would like to propose adding my new introduction to the Policy today, so we can actually move forward. No one (including myself) is going to be 100% happy - we just need to get used to that here (I already made some changes incorporating other people's ideas - including ideas of people with whom I have vehemently disagreed; we all need to be willing to do that). Slrubenstein | Talk 07:47, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
The core issue isn't 100% happiness, the issue is having policies that are not a constant source of irritation (and the resulting "edit warring" and discussion on talk pages.) For example, if an offense against NOR is that the editor has introduced novel material then the novelty is the offense and there's no need to claim, within NOR, that in some indistinct manner NPOV forbids that. The offense is directly against NOR and that's sufficient. There has never been any need to add specific language about that specific offense to the NOR policy. My current issue is about style and method of presentation: it's about neither source-typing (the example cited is illustrative) nor about synthesis: make the introduction clean. Get the introduction solid, then proceed to source-typing and (eventually to) synthesis. If problematic material is left in the NOR policy page then it will continue to be a point of contention all the time it is there. That's not something to be facilely swept away by asserting that, well, nobody is going to be 100% happy. -- Minasbeede 14:36, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
This isn't all that complicated. I don't think NPOV prohibits editors from adding their own opinions, I think NOR (this policy) does that. NPOV requires level treatment of all opinions, analyses, etc. that comply with the other two policies, including this one, NOR. It's inaccurate and unnecessary to say NPOV forbids editors' own opinions: that's done by NOR. NPOV addresses the issue of editors giving unfair emphasis to a particular point of view. If that point of view is an instance of OR then NPOV never comes into play: that point of view shouldn't appear at all. There is no issue over fair treatment (according to NPOV) of material that shouldn't appear at all. The introduction to NOR should not say that NOR (or some aspect of it) is a subset of NPOV. It isn't. -- Minasbeede 14:57, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
That NPOV has always forbidden editors from expressing their views in articles may be historically accurate but when NOR was created I think that prohibition passed over into NOR. I don't see the prohibition in the current NPOV (and I'm glad I don't, I think that when NOR was created it was entirely proper to move that entirely to NOR. Leaving it split between the two would be horribly cumbersome.) It's not deceptive to say NPOV says (although really, it "said") that in the Introduction but it is confusing: a person reading that might go to NPOV and search for it and not find it. The statement in the Introduction could be modified with the word "historically" or there could be a footnote or a parenthetic expression but that tends to make the Introduction (well, maybe the word "historically" doesn't do it) cumbersome. Leave it in if you must; be aware that is a source of confusion. Confusion in policies is not good (but I assert that in an entirely OR fashion.) I would not myself want to be responsible for causing confusion in a policy statement. I don't for a moment believe that's your intent but I do warn that it could be a result. -- Minasbeede 16:46, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Can an article have a SYNT problem by implication? The article George Washington and religion contains what I find to be a subtle form of synthesis... using original documents in a way that very strongly "implies" that Washington held certain religious beliefs (specifically that he was a Deist). However, the article does not actually come out and say: "Thus, Washington was a deist". Is this a NOR/SYNT situation or not? I would appreciate an uninvolved opinion. Blueboar 15:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
If that's a matter of legitimate controversy (both words matter, I'd say) (and relevant to the article in question) then NPOV requires both sides of the issue to be presented, so a step backward can be taken and should be. It looks like this is a small part of something much larger. What's the best way you can find to resolve this - or can it be resolved? -- Minasbeede 20:35, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
If this question refers to the Abercrombie quotation it would seem that it is verifiable that Abercrombie said it. I don't think anyone would claim that Abercrobmie is the definitive source on Washington and religion and it's likely that Abercrombie meant no compliment by the words (and could have meant that Washington's actions sure looked like the actions of a deist, which Abercrombie deplored - both deism and looking like a deist by one's actions. The quotation as given doesn't indicate that Abercrombie spat but that seems very possibly to be the sense of his words.) The article itself seems to indicate the question of Washington being a deist is still "up in the air" and that overall message of the article would seem to neutralize any false interpretation or promotion in importance of what Abercrombie said. I'd not automatically delete the passage. -- Minasbeede 20:54, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I reverted recent POV-poshing aimed at giving more slack to artcles based solely on primary sources. This encourages a deplored practice to create aricles by "quote farming" from google searches. The reverted significant changes in policy must be thorougly discussed in the policy talk page. `' Míkka 15:46, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I restored it to the version that was last protected in part because it seemed like the only disinterested way I could act, given that I have argued for my own views here. If an editor who has not been involved want to change the protection, I won't object - but check with the page protection policy. We are uspposed to protect it at whatever version it is in when the conflict calls for protection. I think one could reasonably argue that with policies, reversion should be to the pre-conflict version. Anyway, it could be a touchy subject. i did what I thought was prudent and won't object if another admin has a better idea. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:33, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
COGDEn is bein disingenuous. The distinction between primary and secondary sources has been a stable component of this policy for most of its existence. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:26, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. COGDEN, if you want to change the policy make a formal proposal. In the meantime, just because you don't like the policy doesn't mean it should go. You do not have a veto over all of wikipedia. And since policies are the framework that guide the composition of articles, of course they have the greatest inertia. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:11, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
In this case, the disputed sections don't seem to guide anything, they just feed edit wars. Jacob Haller 19:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
I do not kinow why the page was unprotected, but it was protected for a reason and i protected it again in the version it had originally been protected in. Mikka, do not screw with this. we have page protection rules for a reason and you have just proven the importance of our policy - bias the protection and you just unleash a new edit war. Now it is protected, nothing in the page has changed since it was firsdt protected by another editor, let's hash out conflicts here and reach consensus before unprotecting and changing the policy page. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
The very fact it is protected makes this very clear - the disputed tag is onloy needed for articles that are not protected, as people might think such articles are entirely uncontroversial. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
If you think I have a ocnflict of interest you are free to accuse me of that, but please note I protected the version that was protected before I became active here (i.e. I just extended the protection initially made by someone else). Would you have done it any other way? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:07, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, I made a careful determination, acted and explained myself on the talk page. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:22, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Plus I protected it at the version that was first protected at the time of the original edit war. In other words, I protected a version I had no stake in. All i was really doing was extending a protection another admin had made, because the issues that led to protection had not been resolved. But it is evident that the version I protected did not reflect my own edits or preferences. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:30, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Note: "Protection is not an endorsement of the current version (protection log)." Slrubenstein | Talk 20:11, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Can we at least keep the page stable enough that editors can mark all disputed sections? - for the sake of those reading disputed sections as well as to improve the debate. Jacob Haller 04:34, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
As usual, an editor is too lazy to read. Please take the monumental effort to shift your eyes up seven lines. A protected page is never the right version, and never the wrong version. It is the protection of a page in the middle of an edit war. It is by definition under contention. Anyone who wants to see what it looked like before protection can with the flick of a button. Awww, I guess that is too much work for some people. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:25, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, I realize that now ... Slrubenstein | Talk 20:46, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
I was just alerted to this debate via a notice at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy). As one who has not participated in the policy debate, I can say that somebody has made a royal mess of things here.
I'll bypass the questions of who has consensus, what version is protected, etc. People seem to be playing king of the hill regarding which version of policy language is consensus and which version is the new proposal, and I am in no position to decide who pushed who of that hill.
Returning to first principles, I believe it is a founding principle of Wikipedia that we are built on secondary sources. It is one of the five pillars. Jimmy Wales speaks on it at length. It is his reason for setting this up, and our reason for being here.
It is also indisputable that there are some occasions where primary or tertiary sources are allowable, and than a complete ban on them would be inappropriate. Also, there is room to disagree on the definition of what is primary versus tertiary, and whether various ways of gathering or surveying primary sources constitutes synthesis or original research.
My opinion is that those occasions should be very limited (you could use the word "rare" or whatever other descriptor), and not used when there is a suitable secondary source. They should be assigned to narrow categories for which criteria can be applied, and any individual instance of breaking the rule should be subject to a common sense test of whether it is really original research.
The page is protected for ten more days, which should be long enough to break a log jam. For those ten days it does not matter what the old consensus was or what language is approved. To focus the discussion, what should those "rare" occasions be? What occasions, if any, are uncontroversial (forget about old consensus - what has consensus here and now)? Which are the ones that need some debate? Where are the disputed boundaries of what is and is not a secondary source, or how to enforce and administer the rule?
If you think that's not worth restating for a know-nothing like me, fine. It's just hard for an outsider to know what's going on, and I see that some of the people in the thick of the debate may have lost sight of the broader question of what the policy ought to say, not just who followed correct procedure. Wikidemo 23:44, 7 September 2007 (UTC)
Just to help cut through some of the "wordiness" mentioned above, it seems that the key dispute revolves around these two sentences. IMHO, this isn't about defending territory at all, but a dispute on how restrictive the wording should be on the use of primary sources. I agree we can make the policy more concise, but not at the expense of eliminating or diluting restrictions on the use of primary sources. Dreadstar † 00:37, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
And who is to say a secondary source is "rubbishy?" You? Your examination of primary sources reveals the secondary source to be rubbish? We should publish your own research rather than provide an account of what professional researchers have done? You have just proven that we need to make the distinction between primary and seconsary sources. In every criticism of the distinction that I have read, the argument is always, ultimatey, that "I" (the editor of Wikipedia) "know better than the secondary sources." That is original research, and it violates NPOV. It just proves that the people who are most frustrated by this policy are those who want to violate it. Well - good!! Slrubenstein | Talk 10:22, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I think what you are mainly proving is that this policy cannot stand alone. Which is true. NPOV and V remain as independent policies that must also be followed in editing articles. A final point: NPOV will never be achieved by just one editor or one source - if an article is lopsided in its use of secondary sources and thus is not NPOV, the solution is for other editors to do more research using other sources and add to it. There is no getting around that - no policy can address this issue, it is the very idea of a wikipedia: articles are always works in progress, never finished, and anyone can, should even has to edit to make it work. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:08, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
The only sense in which secondary sources were ever a significant part of the Wikipedia movement is in the fact that a Wikipedia article itself has to be a secondary source. It can't be a primary source about any topic, but it certainly can cite primary sources. All of Jimbo's statements about original research are about making sure that new ideas don't make it on Wikipedia unless first published in another source. The first source of publication is a primary source. If some crackpot physicist wants to write an article about a new physics, he has to publish first in a reputable journal. If he can do so, people are free to cite that journal article. When they do so, that citation is a primary source for the new idea.
The only other factor in which secondary sources has come to play a role in Wikipedia is the issue of notability. According to an apparent consensus, the existence of secondary sources is good evidence of notability. Once notability is established, however, one may cite primary sources as well. The notability criterion was never intended as a restriction on what sources you can cite concerning a notable topic. COGDEN 00:21, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
This gets the the heart of our policy: we editors do not forward our own arguments or views, no matter how many primary sources we marshall. This is not the place for original research. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:52, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Sigh... of course it is a sequitor, it follows from what came before it. First, Sambc wrote, "Whoah, Vassyana, are you seriously saying that no primary source is ever (or is from/in) a reliable third-party publication with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy?" Then, Vassyana wrote, "Raw data from published research should only be used in context, drawing upon evaluations of that data. If an interview is notable, it will be commented upon by a third-party source, but there should be little problem with a direct and relevant quote from said interview." Then I meade my comment, which in context I though was clearly the explanation for why Sambc is wrong, and Vassyana is right. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:00, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
That's okay, Sambc, it happens. I don't want to get bogged down in semantics (what does third party mean etc) - the point is, it is not our job to be fact-checkers for published sources. We can present facts even from primary sources, as long as we do so simply to report the facts - but not to argue against a published analysis/explanation/interpretation etc of those or similar facts. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:45, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Okay, this is the third protection (because previous ones expired, not because of a concensus) of the page in as many weeks, with no progress. This page is currently at around 173,000 bytes (characters), and most of it (I'd estimate 2/3) deal primarily with the "Sources" section. If other policies or guidelines had a similar section, I don't know, but it seems those would have had just as contentious a problem as we have here (with no end in sight). Just for this version of the talk page, we have over over 300 edits in just over a week.
So, rather than skirt around the issue yet one more time, with discussions about "Should this policy distinguish between primary and secondary sources?" or whatever, how about just one simple question:
Should this policy attempt to define the types of sources and their potential uses, or should this subject be more adequatley covered in a separate "article" (probably a guideline)? wbfergus 17:43, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I think this article should be self-contained, and, if anything is necessary to it, that thing should be in the article. I must also protest that some other editors make side-swipes against primary sources in a section reserved for "one simple question." Jacob Haller 18:09, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
Remove the source typing from the policy. It neither works nor is even clear enough to be understood. The potential for harm is greater than the potential for good. -- Minasbeede 22:04, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
There is material about sources in these policies and guidelines:
I do not think we need more than that. If there are any discrepancies, please point them out. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I think that the policy should discuss sources in relation to original research. It should do so in harmony with existing policy and guidelines. Generally, there should be a distinction between modern reliable third-party sources and everything else. I think the primary/secondary distinction is problematic and widely misunderstood/abused. "Modern reliable third-party sources" would cover all the secondary and tertiary sources that should be used, as well as permit widely demanded "exceptions" for certain primary sources, such as scientific journal articles. Vassyana 19:18, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
It occurs to me that situations where a large number of policies/guidelines have equivalent material, especially where it becomes important for those to be in harmony, it makes sense to have this (be it the sources matter here, or anything else) defined in just one place - then it can never become contradictory. It can be linked or transcluded as necessary. With reference to this specific case, the definitions of sources should be in once place that all policies/guidelines that need to can refer or transclude, while this policy should then discuss the application of this (if any) to the policy on original research. Well, that's what makes sense to me. Everything being self-contained is a recipe for contradiction between them. SamBC( talk) 19:44, 8 September 2007 (UTC)
I would demote the idea of types of sources to a background essay on reliability of sources. I would also demote the synthesis section in the same way. There is a clarity in No Original Research that is obscured by these different attempts to give examples of undesirable forms of OR. Spenny 00:36, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
This is a good objective. The question is, is it time to spin off the bulk of the content to a separate page? Our general practice is this: we work on main pages (whether articles or policies) until specific sections are good enough to spin off. As long as some editors feel that the no synthesis component of the policy can be improved - whether just in the style of the writing, or in the clarity of the conceptualization - it makes sense (and is common practice) to continue working on it as part of the main page (two reasons: it is the easiest way to ensure that, prior to spinning off, it is fully consistent with the main page - you know how easily it is for separate pages to become inconsistent; the more stable the version prior to spin-off the less danger of this); second, most people have a natural limit to the length of their watchlist and more people will pay attention to and comment on changes at NOR than at spin-off pages. So while I agree with you in principle, i think right now it is a premature move. Slrubenstein | Talk 13:43, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Well, I in corporatede COGDEN's suggestion into my proposal for the intro. If people agree it is an improvement, I would ask their permission to replace the current intro with my revised proposal - and thus move step-by-step. I would not unprotect the page (yet) - but neither would I add my revised proposed new intro unless there were general agreement that it would be a positive move. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:09, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
The last thing this talk page, already too long and in need of archiving, needs is another section. it is there, people are commenting. I agree with you it is worth waiting a week. As a more neutral party would you keep an eye on it and let me or another admin know if/when you think it is appropriate to make the change to the policy page? Thanks, Slrubenstein | Talk 17:03, 9 September 2007 (UTC)
Are taking two sourced numbers and performing a math calculation original research? See Talk:Jatropha. For instance calculating any data on a per capita basis by dividing the value by the published population. -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 22:01, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
So then saying a 1 degree change in average global temperature is less than a 0.4% change in average global temperature is also OR? That takes no number from any source, uses the fact that for temperature in radiative processes the proper scale is the Kelvin scale, and uses the definition of percent. -- Minasbeede 22:23, 12 September 2007 (UTC)
Calculation that are so trivial that they cannot be accepted for publication in a peer reviewed journal are not OR. We cannot consider calculations that are too difficult to follow for lay people but are trivial to experts as OR, because then such calculations could never be included in wikipedia. An example is this calculation of an integral. Count Iblis 17:04, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
In my opinion, any calculation that could reasonably be challenged is probably OR, unless it's copied directly from a reliable source. Something that's truly trivial such as 2+2=4 will never be challenged. The per capita example given above could reasonably be challenged and shouldn't be included. Chaz Beckett 17:19, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I am inclined to agree with Count Iblis on this topic. Math formulas that are considered trivial to an expert in the said field of research are not OR. The decision of what is trivial must be made by consensus of contributors who are knowledgeable in the discussed field. This is similar to the consensus that is needed to verify the validity of sources or the use of such sources in any Wikipedia article. There can be no line drawn at what is "truly" or "absolutely" trivial as even a case such a 2+2=4 can be disputed on the grounds that the author does not assert a base 10 system. In a trinary system 2+2 != 4, rather 2+2 = 10. Thus in the absence of such assertions, one must have familiarity in the field to understand the assumptions being made, however trivial or complicated they may appear. Gsonnenf 02:25, 18 September 2007 (UTC)
Reading over the discussion, the main issues people seem to have with primary sources revolve around 1) raw data, 2) historical/obsolete sources and 3) sources lacking analysis/interpretation and/or lacking editorial review of those claims. I am not necessarily proposing these are distinctions we should use in the policy. But rather, I'm inviting discussion of these points to see what distinctions we might arrive at to find a consensus for the policy.
Just some thoughts. What are yours? :) Vassyana 01:48, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Talking about various types of sources and their relative merits and demerits is interesting, but this does not address the subject of the policy - that editors should not add their own data and interpretations to articles. What types of sources publish useful and accurate data and interpretations, or what the editor's own ideas are based, on is not really all that relevant to this simple principle.
I think this discussion of various types of sources does not belong in the policy at all. Tim Vickers 03:32, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
e.g. Ludwig von Mises wrote a work arguing against centralized economic planning. He called centralized economic planning (regardless of whether it involved worker-ownership) socialism and worker-ownership (without central planning) syndicalism (and hastily dismissed the latter). Syndicalism proper, mutualism (economic theory), etc. and most other forms of libertarian socialism get grouped into syndicalism and excluded from socialism. Historically, all these have been considered socialism. This gets messy when Mises makes categorical statements condemning "socialism." It may not be clear whether these arguments apply to socialism as a whole or to socialism exclusive of syndicalism (etc.). Commentaries may inherit these definitions and face the same problem. Jacob Haller 02:54, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Per discussion, I revised the introduction, taking into account coments and edits by other people active here.
I would not like to propose to change the following section, "What is excluded." I have three problems with this. first, it opens up not with a statement about what is excluded, but with the motivation behind the policy, so the title of the section and part of the contents are inconsistent. Second, the list of what is excluded seems ad hoc. Third, following sections explain in greater detail what is excluded and why.
Here is what I propose: since we are still debating primary versus secondary sources and what is actually included and excluded, I suggest that instead of calling this section "What is excluded" let's follow the lead of the first sentence and make it a section about what motivated the policy i.e. its origins. Such a section can discuss things that have traditionally been excluded, but in the context of the history of the proposal. I think this explanation of the history would be educational.
ALL I am proposing right now is to change the second section. I am not proposing anything about the third or following sections (on sources and synthesis).
here is what I propose:
Origins of the policy
The core policy of Wikipedia, NPOV is meant to provide a framework whereby editors with diverse, often conflicting, even opposing points of view can collaborate on the creation of an encyclopedia. It does so through the principle that while it is often hard for people to agree as to what is the truth, it is much easier for people to agree as to what they and others believe to be the truth. Therefore, Wikipedia does not use "truth" as a criteria for inclusion. Instead, it aims to account for different, notable views of the truth. First codified in February 2002, the objective of the NPOV policy is to produce an unbiased encyclopedia.
In the year that followed a good deal of conflict on article talk pages involved accusations that editors were violating NPOV, and it became clear that this policy, which provided a philosophical foundation for Wikipedia, needed to be supplemented. Wikipedians developed the concept of " verifiability" as a way of ensuring the accuracy of articles by encouraging editors to cite sources; this concept was established as a policy in August 2003. Verifiability was also promoted as a way to ensure that notable views would be represented, under the assumption that the most notable views were easiest to document with sources. Notability is especially imortant because while NPOV encourages editors to add alternate and multipe points of view to an article, it does not claim that all views are equal. Although NPOV does not claim that some views are more truthful than others, it does acknowledge that some views are held by more people than others. Accurately representing a view therefore also means explaiing who holds the view and whether it is a majority or minority view.
Soon it became evident that editors who rejected a majority view would often marshall sources to argue that a minority view was superior to a majority view - or would even add sources in order to promote the editor's own view. Therefore, the NOR policy was established in 2003 to address problematic uses of sources. The original motivation for NOR was to prevent editors from introducing fringe views in science, especially physics - or from excluding verifiable views that, in the judgement of editors, were wrong . [1] It soon became clear that the policy should apply to any editor trying to introduce his or her own views into an article (and thus a way to distinguish Wikipedia from Everything 2). In its earliest form the policy singled out edits that:
for exclusion, and established that
as criteria for inclusion.
As before my attitude has been conservative, to try to preserve as much as the previous content as possible. I have attempted to make the layout more consistent and clearer. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:53, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
More than a day ago people were expressing support for the change, and I asked anyone if they objected. No one registered objection. If someone else wants to act as "gatekeeper" they can but I haven't made any changes without ensuring that people active in discussion on this page approved. That is what is important, I think. Slrubenstein | Talk 12:18, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Here is where the sources issue is under mediation. I hope that the talk on this page can be refactored in order to work with the mediation process. in the meantime - I look forward to commnents on my proposal, above, to replace the "what is excluded" section with the above "Origins of the Policy" section - and I repeat: I wrote this with an intention of not addressing the current debate over sources, but simply an attempt to rationalize and more clearly explain what is currently in section 2. PS thanks wbfergus, and Wikidemo Slrubenstein | Talk 13:34, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Last I looked 12 of 18 had agreed, 6 hadn't, and 2 of the 12 had withdrawn their agreement. It's not going to happen: the rules require unanimous agreement for mediation to occur. -- Minasbeede 17:49, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Leaving asside the debates on current wording and definitions for a moment, I want to focus for a moment on why I think having a section that discusses primary and secondary sources (in some form) is important and useful. As we currently define the term, primary sources are things that do not contain analysis, interpretations and conclusions ... things like raw data, eye witness reporting, original documents etc. I think we are all agreed there are situations where quoting such a source is both useful and appropriate. However, because primary source materials do not contain any analysis, interpretation or conclusions, they have to be used with great caution. It takes a very skilled editor to use a primary source material without interpreting, analying or making a conclusion from it. Since whole point of this policy is that editors should not put their own thinking and conclusions into articles, but should instead report on and cite the thinking of others (preferably the best experts in the field) we need to caution editors about this potential problem. We need a statement that explains the pitfalls of using primary source material in an article. It is a caution and explanation, not an out right ban. Blueboar 13:01, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I was indicating that the quotation represented policy creep. There has been policy creep. I have already acknowledged to blueboar that I did not interpret his remarks as meaning he opposed all thought. The point is that if there's a continual equation of "own thinking" with "forbidden original research" that goes too far and it will end up being that all thought is forbidden because that is "original research," and that could happen because editors were insufficiently attentive to what words in or about policy really mean. Simple logic, a form of thinking recognized and valued for millenia, is currently forbidden by the "synth" section of the current NOR policy. That to me is policy creep and is harmful to Wikipedia. I think that policy creep was done by a minority and should be undone. I very much oppose further policy creep and I am clearly fully entitled to do so and be so. I did screw up: I should have said in my comments what I finally did say to blueboar, which is visible to all on his talk page.
If what I have said has served to alert other editors to the danger of policy creep I am more pleased than sorry. My regret is the failure to adequately indicate that I was not aiming my remarks at blueboar, who is doing a superlative job, even though he and I appear to disagree. -- Minasbeede 19:47, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Yes, and I was the one who asked him. And he and I often disagree - it doesn't mean I don't value his views. But his views carry no moe weight than any other editor. I provide people with my reasons for my views (as does Tim); I never ask that my views be given more weight than others because of my credentials. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:44, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I support having some sort of statement concerning classification of sources somewhere: I just don't think the place is here and the time is now, because we don't have a consensus, and these factors concern not just WP:OR, but WP:NPOV, as well as WP:Notability. I think there are a lot of good suggestions that could quickly be crafted into a guideline, however. COGDEN 19:02, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
Quite often, a primary source includes both the raw data and some context and interpretation, and fairly often, a secondary source includes some raw data as well. I don't see why it's a primary/secondary issue. Jacob Haller 19:47, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
There's a dispute at the article on the term " Anchor baby" concerning whether "common sense" interpretations of quotations that mention the term can be used to define the term. Some sources comment on the term and how it's used, and there's no question that those sources are allowed. It's the sources that use the term without commenting on it that are in question. My belief is that doing so is the equivalent of interpreting a primary source. Some other editors believe that we'll never find a source saying that the term is used in a certain way and that NPOV requires we include that usage, therefore it is aceptable to use our interpretations of the quotations. Do regulars here have any thoughts on this type of issue? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 21:08, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
We have sources which use "anchor baby" in an apparently neutral, news-reporting context, but these sources don't come out and say they consider the term to be neutral. Some of us say such sources validly illustrate the expression being used neutrally and are appropriate for inclusion (indeed, that they must be included for the sake of NPOV). Others of us insist, in effect, that unless a source explicitly, literally says something like "'anchor baby' is not a pejorative term", or "some people use 'anchor baby' in a neutral context", it is utterly useless as evidence either way, since we have no right to infer what the source says about pejorativeness and would be violating WP:NOR if we were to attempt to do so. The "it's always pejorative" camp then says that since no sources (at least, none they recognize) can be found to support any other view, we have a duty to say that "anchor baby" is pejorative without qualification. The "it's sometimes neutral" camp complains that accepting only neutral sources that explicitly call themselves neutral is a standard that no real-world source can realistically be expected to meet, and that failing or refusing to acknowledge that some people are genuinely using the expression in a neutral manner is a violation of WP:NPOV. We've been stuck on this OR-vs.-NPOV argument for several weeks now, despite a CfR, with each side insisting its understanding of the Wikipedia core principles is correct, and without any signs of anyone being willing to budge. Richwales 23:42, 13 September 2007 (UTC)
I think this is a classic case where Wikipedia struggles with rebuttal. Initially I assumed this referred to children who were offspring of sailors in foreign ports. If that were so then I could see a trail that would lead me to viewing the term as offensive slang. However, if it is simply a term derived from the sense of anchoring the family in the country, then it is a harder call. I can both see that it could be offensive (with the implication of unwanted child and so on) though in that sense I could see that although it might be insensitive, it is potentially not pejorative. So as an editor, having Googled around, I am sympathetic and I can see that the term is widely enough used that it is reasonable to conclude that there should not be an issue with qualifying the statement.
This is a case where the OR principle struggles as with any potentially offensive interpretation it may be that there is a motivation to document the problem, where there is no motivation to assert the acceptability: perhaps a strongly nationalistic Welshman might find the term British offensive, but who will go around documenting directly that calling a Welshman British is not offensive, though they will document that it is a legitimate attribution. You simply will not find the direct information, especially if the view is not held to be worthy of rebuttal due to its obviously extremist position.
My view is that in this case, there are good grounds for recognising that the policy is being used (with good faith) to assert a point of view. There is a conflict between NOR and NPOV, there has been a good faith attempt to justify the dispute and a sound editorial judgement would allow for a phrasing that recognised the contentiousness of the assertion that the term is pejorative and it should therefore be qualified. Spenny 09:18, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
I created the article Blackburn, Aberdeenshire. It's a sizable commuter village for Aberdeen but if you read the article you'll see that I said that it has an industrial estate. I could not find a citation referring to this specific fact, but it is completely true. There are online sites for the companies in the industrial estate, but nothing actually mentions that Blackburn industrial estate exists. I may have violated NOR here, what do you think?-- h i s s p a c e r e s e a r c h 13:52, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
We seem to be making a bit of progress ... So it might be helpful to see where we agree as a basis upon which to discuss things further.
To start: Can we agree that the intent of the Sources section is to caution users about misusing certain materials in a way that violates NOR? And can we agree that the policy should include such a caution? Blueboar 14:57, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
OK... If I understand the comments, it seems that we have agreement that some sort of cautionary statement is useful and perhaps even needed. Now we move to areas where I expect disagreement will begin to crop up... but let's see where it happens. next two questions: 1) Can we agree that, in practice, it is common for editors who violate Cogden's two principals to do so by misusing what I call primary material (taken from any type of "source"). 2) Can we agree that it is more common for them to do so using material taken from what the policy now calls a "primary source"? Blueboar 16:43, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
We might, perhaps, be able to agree that what the kind of editor who is the source of all this might be doing is something that could be perfectly valid were the editor to do it in a scholarly journal. Wikipedia is not to be the place where new ideas first appear: that's what NOR is about. Wikipedia, through the NOR policy, excludes all such material without paying attention to whether it would or would not be valid in a scholarly journal. It might also be that the editor is doing something that no scholarly journal would ever publish. Excluding whatever it is the editor is doing from Wikipedia is unrelated to the quality of the material. If it's novel Wikipedia doesn't want it, Wikipedia is prejudiced against it solely because it is novel. It is not Wikipedia's business to analyze the quality of the material, to conclude whether or not it is a proper or improper use of primary (or any other) material. If the result is a novel idea Wikipedia rejects it, good or bad. -- Minasbeede 18:11, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Maybe this is the heart of the source-typing issue (if not, clue me in.) It would reasonable to me to accept that if a Wikipedia article says (X is Y) or says (X is not Z) that NPOV would make proper any verifiable evidence that indicates (X is not Y) or that (X is Z.) It's reasonable to me because once you categorize X in some way there is an implicit opposite category. The idea of the potential for the existence of that implicit opposite category is not novel. If it's asserted that John Doe is hairy then either all the evidence indicates that or it doesn't. The assertion creates the issue of whether or not John Doe is hairy (and if the assertion exists in Wikipedia we can assume that the topic is notable, else it shouldn't be there.)
But if a long line of secondary sources all say (X is Y) or (X is not Z) then there would be those who assert that the opposite view, if unsourced as a view, is OR. If Wikipedia claims that John Doe is hairy is it OR to produce evidence that shows John Doe to be essentially hairless even if there is no source that explicitly states "John Doe is essentially hairless"? Is it a "novel" idea that John Doe could be hairless when the statement has been made that he is hairy? That he is hairy is a POV. An editor finds verifiable evidence that counters that POV. He wants to put it into the article to counter the apparently erroneous assertion, as is proper under NPOV.
I understand that John Doe could have been hairy once and essentially hairless another time, I understand that "hairy" might mean, to some, "has some quantity of hair, no matter how small," I understand that there could even be confusion over which John Doe the statement was made about. All of those could be considered in deciding what the article should ultimately say. The question is whether saying John Doe is hairy creates the implicit concept "John Doe is not hairy" and since that concept exists it is not, for Wikipedia, a novel idea. Evidence for "not hairy" as applied to John Doe is fully legitimate within the Wikipedia policies of V, NPOV, if Wikipedia claims John Doe is hairy - even if there are dozens of secondary sources that make that claim. -- Minasbeede 18:50, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
If this is the heart of the source typing issue... then there is fundamental misunderstanding of how the core policies work going on. V, NPOV, and NOR are all core policies. One does not "over rule" the other. If a statement or citation has a flaw with any one of them, the statement or citation may not be used. In this case... you may not put something that violates NOR into an article, just to satisfy NPOV. Blueboar 20:42, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Suppose I were to write an article on "Assault weapons" (there is one, but for my illustration assume that I am writing it fresh)... In that article I want to discuss the different laws about assault weapons around the world. Now suppose I write:
This is a proper use of a citation to a primary source document - the US Constitution. No OR is involved because I am using it simply to reference itself. The interpretive statement (that the Constitution guarantees the right to own assault weapons) is attributed to a different source - one external to Wikipedia.
But if I were to write:
This would be an improper use of the citation to the primary document. I am interpreting the Constitution for myself, and concluding that it applies to assault weapons. It may or it may not... but, as a Wikipedia editor, I can not make that determination in my article. It is OR to do so.
Unfortunately, I see far too much of the second type of useage of citation. This is the kind of thing that the Sources secton is trying to prevent. I hope everyone would agree that we want to discourage such usages. However, because the primary source (the constitution) can be used appropriately (as per the first usage), we are getting caught up in semantics and debates over the terms like "Primary" and "source". Blueboar 20:34, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
In Spenny's example, if the government survey asked the question "Does the Constitution guarantee the right to own assault weapons?" or anything like that ("...rifles, handguns, and even assault weapons?") and the answers showed that 55% of those surveyed said "yes" it's hard to accept that an editor can't represent that 55% as "many people." Even if only the raw data were presented and (for simplicity with the numbers) 55,000 said "yes," 40,000 said "no," and 5000 said "don't know" it would still seem that an editor could say "many people" had the belief. I recognize that survey methodology can be attacked but the editor didn't design the survey, he's just reporting what it said, and "many people" does not seem to misrepresent the results of the survey. The editor has engaged in no "original research" by any reasonable interpretation of the term. If the editor had said "an overwhelming majority" that's a misrepresentation. If the editor had said that "many people, well-versed in the principles of the Constitution and vigorously defending their rights under it" the editor would clearly be going beyond the content of the source and adding personal opinion. There's also nothing about the example that requires the editor to have found those numbers in the government survey itself. The editor might have found the numbers in a secondary source. (If the editor extracted survey results from a secondary source there is the possibility that the secondary source engaged in "original research" in its presentation. That seems to be why historians prefer going to primary sources.)
If the question asked about "personal firearms" it would probably misrepresent the survey to say the people believed the Constitution granted a right to own assault weapons. Assault weapons may be personal firearms but the question was more general. It's a misrepresentation to claim that the opinion of the many about "personal firearms" was meant by the respondents to include a particular class of "personal firearms."
I agree with Spenny's point. If the survey asked about "assault weapons" and can be seen to have produced answers consistent with "many people" then I think it is fully proper to include that material even though the source doesn't have the precise words "many people thought that it was a constitutional right to own an assault weapon." It is not original research to report, using common mathematical techniques or different words with a compatible meaning, what the report actually said. I think Spenny's point is that some over-literal individuals would attempt to mischaracterize a simple, valid, straightforward restating of the reports content as forbidden "original research." I share his concern, and I think that there has been scant attention to this point of view on the part of those who want to retain source (material) typing. I see no wall to prevent such over-reaction, I may even sense a desire to institutionalize such over-reaction. This is a legitimate concern and it largely is being ignored, which is improper in a quest for consensus. -- Minasbeede 16:00, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Since people like my phrase "primary material"... I thought I would see what the current section would look like if all we did was substitute "material" for "source" (with a minimum of tweeking of other bits to make it make sense). This isn't really a proposal... but take a read and tell me if this is more along the lines of what we want to say in this policy: Blueboar 23:28, 14 September 2007 (UTC)
Primary, secondary, and tertiary materials
Research that consists of collecting and organizing material from existing sources within the provisions of this and other content policies is encouraged: this is "source-based research," and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia. However, care should be taken not to "go beyond" the sources or use the material in them in novel ways. Such material may be divided into three categories:
Primary materials are documents and data that do not contain analytical, interpretive or conclusionary statements. An eyewitness account of a traffic accident is primary material. United Nations Security Council resolutions are primary materials. Primary materials that have been published within a reliable source may be used in Wikipedia, but great care must be taken when doing so, because it is easy to misuse such material. Any interpretation of primary material requires citation to a source that has done so. Examples of primary materials include archeological artifacts; photographs; historical documents such as diaries, census results, video or transcripts of surveillance, public hearings, trials, or interviews; tabulated results of surveys or questionnaires; written or recorded notes of laboratory and field experiments or observations; and artistic and fictional works such as poems, scripts, screenplays, novels, motion pictures, videos, and television programs.
Secondary materials are those that draw on primary materals to make generalizations or interpretive, analytical, concusions or synthetic claims. A journalist's story about a traffic accident or about a Security Council resolution is a secondary source, assuming the journalist was not personally involved in either. An historian's interpretation of the decline of the Roman Empire, or analysis of the historical Jesus, are secondary materials. Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary materials for any statements of analysis, interpretation or conclusion.
Tertiary materials are publications such as encyclopedia articles that sum up other secondary materials, and sometimes primary materials. (Wikipedia itself would fall into this category.) Some tertiary materials are more reliable than others - some articles may be more reliable than others. For example, articles signed by experts in Encyclopaedia Britannica and encyclopedias of similar quality can be regarded as reliable secondary materials instead of tertiary ones. Unsigned articles may be less reliable, but they may be used so long as the encyclopedia is a high quality one.
A Wikipedia article or section of an article that relies on primary materials should (1) only make descriptive claims, the accuracy of which is easily verifiable by any reasonable, educated person without specialist knowledge, and (2) make no analytic, synthetic, interpretive, explanatory, or evaluative claims. Contributors drawing on primary materials should be careful to comply with both conditions.
I'd like to see some sources for this division of sources.
When I was a first-years in university, when studying "use of libraries and sources", I learned:
I'm somewhat puzzled that scientific sources aren't even *mentioned* in the above discussion of sources.
Maybe I'm just a Science-biased crazy-type person, but like, can someone explain to me?
And how can we pretend to be a reliable encyclopedia on scientific subjects if we don't know how to deal with scientific sources?
Or am I just stupid, and has this been handled someplace way back in the archives? (can someone point me to the relevant archive?)
-- Kim Bruning 01:56, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Scientific papers are mostly standardized the world over, and they always contains analysis. I did a quick google for "structure of a scientific article", and the first random hit I checked was already pretty decent: [5]
Since these documents are made to exacting standards, I tend to trust them quite a lot more as a source than practically any other form of document. Especially once they are peer reviewed. -- Kim Bruning 21:33, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
A. Is the typing of sources that is advocated
(1) intended to be for the education of editors before they edit
or
(2) intended to be used by other editors to challenge material inserted by other editors alert other editors to a problem and correct material that is OR?
B. Why must this be part of a policy rather than part of a guideline?
-- Minasbeede 02:30, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. -- Minasbeede 14:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. Wording changed per your suggestion. -- Minasbeede 14:09, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
I see it's been recently discussed by others ( #Math calculations) which math calculations are allowed and which are not. It would be nice if a section on this topic was added to the article.
Some of the numbers I work with in birth control articles may need to be altered to fit the context of the article - a 2% failure rate is the same as a 98% effectiveness rate, for example. I don't think anyone would consider this type of calculation as OR; personally, I think it's more like paraphrasing.
Some of the contraception articles source the prevalence of the method in the United States to numbers from the National Survey of Family Growth. Table 60 (on p.111) shows that 27% of women age 15-44 using contraception are using female sterilization, 18% condoms, etc. The less popular methods were grouped into "other" in Table 60. Their prevalence rates can be calculated by taking the number from the total population from Table 58, and dividing by the number of the population using contraception (from Table 59, this is 61.9%). Is this original research? I would tend toward saying no, since it's just using the same calculation the paper authors used for table 60, and is using the same source data the paper authors used (another table in the same publication on the same survey).
But this use was challenged, and there doesn't seem to be an entirely relevant section on this policy page. The person who challenged cited the synthesis section, but the source is in relation to the topic at hand and the calculation is not being used to advance a position. The topic of mathematical calculations is obviously relevant to this policy, but I'm not sure the current sections provide sufficient guidance as to which calculations are allowed and which are not.
I feel a little silly not being able to interpret the policy page and having to ask on the talk page to see if edits I'd like to make follow policy (or not). In addition to answering my question above, I would appreciate opinions on adding a new policy section along the lines of this:
Lyrl Talk C 16:43, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Here is an interesting issue. I am currently working up some material on the origins of the fraternal group know as the Freemasons (doing so off wiki at the moment - I'm still in the source gathering stage - so I don't have an article to link to for you.) The issue is this... there are a bunch of competing theories about where the Freemasons came from... some scholars say the fraterinty grew out of the Medieval stone mason's guilds, others that it developed from the medieval Knights Templar, some even place it's origins as far back as ancient Egypt or the Celtic Druids. In my article, I am attempting to discuss all of these theories seriously, making note of who says what, the popularity and reputation each theory, and what the pros and cons of each theory are. For each one, I have reliable sources that demonstrate its flaws and problems. But now comes the potentially OR part... I would like to finish up my article by saying something along the lines of "All of these theories have gaps, and none have been definitively proven to be true. For the moment the origins of Freemasonry remain "unknown"." I would be happier if I had a source that actually said this... but most of the reliable sources focus on either "proving" one theory or another, or "disproving" one theory or another... I don't think anyone has ever actually said that none of them are definitive. It is a logical conclusion when you examine all of the scholarship, but one that I would say is OR for me to make. However... the policy currently is silent on stating a non-conclusion (unless you call it a conclusion of "No Conclusion"). Would you agree that adding a conclusion of "no conclusion" is a form of OR, or do you feel that such logical comments are ok? (and should we add something more definitive about this to the policy, or is it already covered?) Blueboar 19:40, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Are we agreed that what the policy should be talking about is material... and not entire sources. Such material might be the entire source (such as a court transcript or a historical document) or it might be part of a source (such as the data section of a scientific research paper) ... but what is OR is the misuse of the material? Blueboar 21:03, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
How about just saying what we mean? Say "uninterpreted raw data" versus "interpretation of that raw data" instead of "primary" versus "secondary"? As in: Uninterpreted raw data is to be used sparingly and always in connection with properly sourced interpretation of that raw data. Any interpretation of the raw data that is not actually in any of the sources cited is called "original research" at Wikipedia and is not acceptable content for a Wikipedia article. WAS 4.250 00:43, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Hmm. A birthdate is raw data. A quotation is raw data. All photos are raw data. So are you really sure any of this is what you mean to say? - Jmabel | Talk 02:43, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Excellent points. How about:
ChazBeckett is completely right, which is why once again I have to wonder whether minasbeede doesn't just reject this policy. I am not sure why this is "moving the discussion forward" and no "back to basics" but let's be less hypothetical. A good number of academic disciplines do source-baes research. I won't quibbl over semantics like sources of materials, I am making a specific point. Historians and Comp. Lit people are what I am thinking of, but you can add some political scientists and economists. An historian has read the Gospels as well as other documents from the early perio of Roman occupied palestine (about 50 BCE to 135 CE) and publishes a book or article in a peer-reviewed journal making claims about Jesus. An editor says, "I have read the Gospels and the historian is wrong." Now, the historian will agree with the editor of Wikipedia that the Gospels say X. But the historian and Wikipedia editor disagree over how to interpret X and how much weight to give it. I say, to make this a superb encyclopedia we need to trust as authoritative (not "the truth," but having some value based on the training of the author and the research that went into writing the book or article, as well as the formal process such as peer-review through which the book or article was vetted) the views of published scholars. And no matter what the Gospels say, and how much of the Gospels the editor has memorized, this is not the place for the editor to argue that the historian is wrong. A literary scholar writes a book analyzing Shakespeare. An editor has read Hamlet, and has a different interpretation, and has arguments and evidence from not just t he version of the play widely published but early folios the editor read at the Folger library. I do not question that the editor read those folios. This is still not the place for the editor to add to an article "However, the x edition of Hamlet reads .... which contradicts this scholar's argument" or "However, if one compares Hamlet and Macbeth, another interpretation is compelling. No. If an editor wants to argue with a published researcher, they should wubmit an article to a peer-reviewed journal - not use Wikipdia to in effect publish his or her own views. Or, I have a graph indicating changes in GDP around the world over the past thirty years. I think this graph proves that democratic countries have healthier economies. An economist or political scientist may say, no, you don't understand the equations by which that chart was compiled, which are insufficient for your claims. And I say "No, the chart makes it very clear, look, I am just going to say democatic countries have x% growth or y% below the poverty line, and non-democratic countries ..." and a political scientist says that no, we can't interpret the chart to involve causality and here is why: .... These are the kinds of examples we actually encounter in editing Wikipedia. The point is that many fields of study require people to spend years learning how to analyze texts appropriately, and then diferent experts fight it out in trying to get their books and articles published. An encyclopedia should value the work that they do, and base itself on that work, when relevant. I've seen too many editors who think they understand what a text (source, material) means and conclude that the published secondary source (or whatever you want to call it) written by a scholar from a particular discipline is just mistaken - when in fact it is the editor who is mistaken, who does not understand the discipline or the source material. Aside from everything else, NOR (like NPOV) requires a certain humility on the part of its editors: we do not decide who is right or wrong, or what is the truth and what isn't. We defer to others - to verifiable sources. Slrubenstein | Talk 15:11, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Minasbeede rejects something, but it's not the policy. Minasbeede embraces the policy as worded before the source typing appeared. -- Minasbeede 18:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Blueboar is doing fine. I regret the distraction from his efforts. -- Minasbeede 18:23, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I find much of the discussion here very confusing ("non-Y-ness"?). Yes, I agree that the issue is misuse of sources. I also agree that, in general, "If an editor wants to argue with a published researcher, they should submit an article to a peer-reviewed journal; however, I also think that this cannot be followed blindly." Certainly this is the case for science, interpretation of history, etc.
However, I find it silly when (as occurred, for example) someone uses an outdated newspaper article to claim that there is a bicycle shop in Wedgwood, Seattle, Washington. I live there. It's gone. A dance studio is now at the same address, but it still requires some synthesis — or simply walking down the street — to establish that there is no longer a bicycle shop in the neighborhood. I want to make sure that we do not disparage this sort of common sense correction as unacceptable "original research". It is presumably impossible to find a "reliable source" that postitively asserts that the neighborhood lacks a bicycle shop. At some point, presuming good faith has to trump formalities.
Let me give a potentially more controversial, but similar, example. Edward Said's obituary for Ibrahim Abu-Lughod, which we cite in that article, misspells the name of Abu-Lughod's daughter "Deena" as "Dina". Deena Abu-Lughod is now (or at least when I last checked) an academic at the New School in NYC. Normally, Said would be an excellent source on his friend's daughter's name; however, he (or his editor) misspelled it. I happen to be quite sure of how to spell it, because we were in college together, and I'm quite certain she's his daughter because I had once been to their home in Chicago in May 1977. Given that I have no track record of falsification, how many hoops should I really need to jump through here?
In short, while I think this is a generally good policy, I'm very concerned about how it can be applied too mechanically and/or used by wikilawyers to make an awful lot of extra work for knowledgable contributors, wasting time that would be far better spent other ways… or simply driving knowledgable contributors away.
As I've written here, part of the problem is more or less epistemological. Some people seem to think that an encyclopedia article can be generated by following a set of rules, even by someone relatively ignorant of the topic at hand and of general principles of research. I think that is seldom the case.
We need standards that clearly exclude people from using Wikipedia to publish their novel scientific theories, their original interpretations of history, or even their factual claims in areas likely to be controversial. We do not need a standard that prevents people who appear to be operating in good faith from making simple statements of presumably uncontroversial fact, making presumably uncontroversial syntheses, or making minor factual corrections to inadequately researched or poorly edited/proofread sources. - Jmabel | Talk 18:41, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Sorry. In the context of "X is Y" non-Y-ness means that the counter statement, "X is not Y" is implicit in "X is Y." In the context of this disucssion all I mean is that if someone says "X is Y" ("John Doe is hairy", with Y being "Hairy") it's not introduction of anything novel to cite a source (which I'll call "something") that shows John Doe is not hairy. Not being hairy is no-Y-ness here. The claim being made is that an editor can't do that, he can only say words like "Richard Roe says, based on (something) that John Doe is not hairy." Same source. The editor can't look at it and determine that it indicates John Doe isn't hairy, he has to quote Richard Roe, who looks at the same evidence and says the same thing.
It looks like we have areas of substantial agreement: your last two paragraphs, for example. -- Minasbeede 19:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Slrubenstein asked me for my views on the recent discussions here.
While I think the "primary material" vs. "primary sources" issue is valid, I think we need (1) to get back to basics and (2) to recognize that this cannot be reduced to formulae. The "NOR" policy was originally about keeping crackpot pseudo-science out of Wikipedia. It seems entirely appropriate to restrict opinions, syntheses, etc., to those attributable to a person or organization that would normally be considered an authority and to a general requirement that factual claims be cited from reliable sources (largely covered by other standards and guidelines, but an "OR" issue arises when we have to choose between conflicting sources).
In general, "OR" becomes a much more important issue in areas that are potentially controversial. The sophistic arguments I've often seen here questioning sources in matters where there is no legitimate controversy strike me as a juvenile waste of :time. While it is nice to have a citation for the statement that "avenues" in Midtown Manhattan run north-south, presumably there are enough people who can verify this from their own knowledge that the lack of a citation is no big deal.
On the other hand, there can be potentially controversial issues of fact, not only of interpretation. If someone wanted to claim that a particular Manhattan avenue carries the most traffic, that would absolutely call for citation from a reliable source. Many sources would be legitimate prima facie: a news article in a mainstream newspaper, a document from the city government, a book from a mainstream commercial or academic press on transport in New York, etc. If, however, someone else came up with a second source that would normally be considered comparably reliable and that disagrees, there is no "formula" to solve this: some original thought will be required. We would want to mention the clashing views and to cite both; it is still going to be a judgment call whether both go in the mainline equally, or one is consigned to a footnote, or what.
There are areas where primary documents are to be preferred; there are other areas where secondary documents are to be preferred. Consider, for example, writing about the Declaration of the Rights of Man and of the Citizen (a rather thin article at the moment). It would seem to me that:
To come at this from a different angle, different sourcing standards apply in different areas, and even to different facts in the same area. Judgment will always be needed, and this judgment should not called "original research" in any disparaging sense. For example:
I could go on, but I'll try to cut to the chase:
- Jmabel | Talk 04:01, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I say this: BellMJ, in the month or two you have been here you have not contributed to any articles. I suggest you get some actual expeience researching and making contributions to articles that stand the test of time, and have more experience collaborating with editors working on aticles, before you try to comment on our core policies. Slrubenstein | Talk 11:27, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
Well i am there in the same time, i have contribued to many articles and still i would try to comment 'core policies' but with this terms:
"Be bold" (which is part of the Wikipedia system.) The focus should be on the product and on whether it is or isn't appropriate and not on the rules. The rules exist to help make the product be appropriate and to ease the process of making it be so. What you suggest looks like it could work, provide it's not taken as an iron law. --Minasbeede
Overall, apart this, if someone believes that 'policies' will override the competence, good will, good faith, proficience in specific fields and consensus+bold+IAR, then he wanted to build a burcocracy (with many arrows in the ands to who wants to demolish some unliked articles) and not an encyclopedy. By the beginnings of the time who writes an encyclopedia adds personal toughs, and surely now that there are 6 billions humans many of them linked with interet we will see a different, silly way to act, that scraps some foundamentals capabilities of human mind. As example you cannot seriously ask to not insert original syntesis/tough while you ask to editors to re-editing an existent source to avoid Copyviol or resume an entire book in a single article. It's simply impossible. Or Wiki buys already 'secondary sources' that, as example, resumed the 'War and peace' novel, or buy directly the right to post it. Asking to someone to resume this or whetever opera with own words and asking to do it without personal tough is simply impossible. Parithetic revision, comments, discussions are the only way to prune some 'excess'. If not, if there are, as usually are not so many, persons involved to talk about an article, then there is not policy that can be used instead, and NOR is IMO, the most absurd (as often used) to all. Let's understand this, it's simply a countersense ask to one to think enough to resume 100 pages of 10 different sources in an article and then accuse him to have made 'OR'! It's like to say that 'thinking' is a crime. Stefanomencarelli.
Yes, I have been fairly paraphrased above. But, no, these are not straw men. Bad-faith, juvenile wikilawyering over things like those I describe here constitute a large part of why I am much less active in Wikipedia than I used to be. - Jmabel | Talk 18:47, 16 September 2007 (UTC)
I totally agree with Jmabel's analysis above, which I think is a great summary of the way things work in Wikipedia. We don't want to over-generalize about different types of sources. Determining which source is the best one is not something amenable to simple rules like "primary sources should be rare", or "secondary sources should be primarily relied upon". While there might eventually be enough consensus for a guideline on these issues, there's certainly none now, and I think the best direction we can take right now is to focus on the fundamentals: what original research is, and what constitutes "going beyond" a source to inject into the article ones' own unpublished ideas. COGDEN 18:48, 18 September 2007 (UTC)