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If there is a poster of a sports event (specifically, one like boxing or wrestling), is it OR to state who is on the poster? Someone keeps reverting my edits on one article saying it's OR to state who is on the poster (even thought the poster is right in the infobox). - unsigned
I feel we should allow OR when something is bloody plain obvious. If an article were to say: in this video, "such and so" is said, wikipedia should be allowed to do so; even if no notable reliable source exists that says that the video says "such and so" provided that anyone can easily verify that the statement is true by simply watching the video.
In other words: things which are self-evident or almost trivial, should not have to pass the RS criterion. It is ludicrous to demand reliable sources for air is something we can breath or daylight originates from the Sun.
Rationale: the purpose of RS and OR is guaranteeing some level of reliablity. Slacking up as described does not compromise that. — Xiutwel (talk) 10:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Having established that editors required an example based on real life experience, I constructed this example from a real dispute that I was involved in. It has been reverted as unsuitable writing for a policy page. It was at a level of detail required to make a discussion of the problems of NOR work, in my opinion. I may not participate further as I have other commitments but leave this as my catalyst to a proper discussion on how rules can end up with inappropriate results . Spenny 10:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Spenny 10:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Start of addition
Synthesis is a complicated concept and so it is worth working though a more detailed example. In the context of Wikipedia, careless use of the rules can lead to some unusual statements being claimed based on referenced sources. Often this might come about due to the editing process itself, where people seek to find citations that back up writing.
Synthesis recognises that although information apparently can be carefully sourced, if the actual detail of a statement is not properly referenced, flawed logic can result in unsupportable claims. Whilst many of these simple logical deductions are harmless and need not be challenged, synthesis is not allowed where it is challenged and seeks to advance a position.
The following example made deliberately bizarre to emphasise the problem closely follows a real life example, though the concepts of the real problem might not be quite as obvious at first sight. To understand the example, we need to do some scene setting so we can understand how the subtle problems of synthesis arise. It is also helpful to understand that our editor is a fervent campaigner against tinted windshields on safety grounds.
In Nirvana, there was growing concern about road safety issues related to driving but tinted windshields and sunglasses were seen as essential to coping with this land of perpetual sunshine. There were a sudden spate of deaths on pedestrian crossings and eventually a public enquiry was held into these. The so-called Blindfold Inquiry dealt in some detail with the various causes and noted that although tinted windshields and sunglasses had been raised as concerns, the actual cause of all the accidents was found to be the craze of young drivers proving that they could drive around blindfolded. There were no accidents that fell outside this cause and the Inquiry was accepted as a sound review of various research. The Inquiry came to no conclusion on tinting windshields or using sunglasses whilst driving, but there was a general public consensus that these were a problem, no viable alternatives were accepted. The Inquiry was available as a public document on the web running to 100 pages of detailed summary and assessment of various opinions. Responding to increasing public concern the President of Nirvana called for the banning of tinted windscreens and scientists also were concerned and wanted to see all devices that impaired visibility removed.
A respected news agency in Nirvana published the following release which was accepted by all as a fair high level summary of the issues.
Tinted windshields blamed for road safety disasters
The President of Nirvana called for the banning of tinted windscreens saying, "Tinted windshields are a disaster in the making, they must be banned." Scientists involved in the famous crossing disasters inquiry also demanded changes, "The Blindfold Inquiry shows that impared visibility can cause disasters." Scientists went on to say, "Sunglasses are a timebomb, they must be banned."
The Wikipedia article was written as follows:
Tinted windshields, also known as sunglasses(citation to above news release), are a harmful form of decoration for cars. Scientists have blamed sunglasses as the cause of deaths on pedestrian crossings.(citation to above news release)
Editors had originally complained that sunglasses were not the same as windshields and the Inquiry did not blame sunglasses, but the author had looked for references and found the press release from the respected news agency.
The two key problems with this synthesis is that the release never actually says that sunglasses and windshields are the same thing, it relies on an assumption that the title of the release, the President and the scientists are talking about the same thing. The writing of the release in this loose fashion does allow the casual reader to be confused. Once read in this way, this synthesis using the article definition is used in circular fashion to confirm the article from the release. The fact that the statements come from the same source is not a barrier to a false analysis of the source.
The second issue is that scientists never actually said that tinted windshields were the problem in the release, and although it is common sense that poor visibility is a related issue, the scientists did not tie the sunglasses and the blindfolding together in the release, there is no quote that actually ties the two statements together. There is nothing incorrect or misleading in the press release, the quotes are accurate, but the summary loses the context of the statements.
The Inquiry had wording in it that clearly defined the problem yet policy is used to dismiss the high quality inquiry statement. The argument is that the press-release must be more appropriate to Wikipedia as from the perspective of the press-release the Inquiry is a primary source and does not apparently have the validity of a secondary source which has tested it. It shows the danger of assessing reliable sources incorrectly. We can also be critical of seeking to suggest that casual comments of scientists are suggested as scientific consensus. Regardless of these policy pages, editing requires that critical faculties remain engaged at all times.
End of addition
I copied it to Wikipedia:No original research/example 1. WAS 4.250 14:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I am not suggesting adding anything to the policy but I want to make sure we all understand the same thing to be synthesis. So here is my example.
A 1914 encyclopedia article reads ( Races of the World) that "[The Caucasian race] leads the other races in literature, commerce and all the arts of civilization." The encyclopedia is American and it is plainly designed to comply with the ideas of contemporary educators. ( In its preparation we were able to secure the coöperation of specialists and educators whose standing will be recognized upon inspection of our list of editors and contributors. Advantage has been taken of suggestions which have come to us from many teachers during years of experience in the use of the former work, and it is believed that the present work will be found adequate and satisfactory.) It would be synthesis to put all this information together to say "White racial superiority was a commonly held belief among educators in America at the beginning of the 20th century".
The two points I want to make is that synthesis has just a good of chance coming up with the right answer as the the wrong answer. And secondly it can involve a single source. Synthesis is not disallowed because information found through synthesis is always wrong; it is disallowed because such information has a chance of being wrong. It much better practice (as well as policy) to find a source that directly addresses the issue rather than trying to make information that partially covers the issue fit by adding it together with other information. Synthesis goes hand and hand with lazy sourcing. If you take the time to find the best sources for the subject first, then you will have little to worry about regarding synthesis.-- BirgitteSB 17:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
As long as the source is clear to the reader, what is wrong with OR in Wikipedia? I am ready to start slapping down some straw dogs, so please consider your response. 01001 00:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
01001, the problem with your OR campaign is that you consistently insist that your OR views are correct because you think they are obvious, even when they are manifestly contradicted by a great deal of published scientific research (e.g. here and here). We do not allow this sort of "OR" in wikipedia, it would be like letting the creationists insist that the articles on evolution by natural selection are wrong because they disagree with them. Encyclopedias are supposed to reflect the current state of the world's knowledge, not be a collection of uninformed opinions. What you are advocating is not even original research, it's the censorship of scholarly research in place of your POV. Pete.Hurd 16:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I— Xiutwel (talk) am copying from a previous section, since the discussion had become rather lengthy with the excellent tractise on the dangers of synthesis inserted.
We do allow things in wikipedia that are not "assertions, theories, opinions, and arguments" therefore the sentence had to be changed to accurately reflect what was meant but was not actually said. WAS 4.250 21:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I have a problem with this clause, since it is being used by persons to claim that an unsigned, collaboratively created Britannica-sourced article which reflects the consensus of experts is less "reliable" than the a signed article by a single self-styled expert out on the fringe of expert opinion. It directly conflicts with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Undue_weight#Undue_weight which says "If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts". Clearly, the Undue Weight policy says that a "commonly accepted reference text" can be used as a trump in a case of battling sources. But the policy on this page says that not only can they not be used as a trump against "secondary sources", they can actually be classed as "less reliable" than "secondary sources"! Just because some quack is willing to sign their name to some absurd claim, that does not mean that it thereby more "reliable" by virtue of that signature alone. Finally, you are just opening the door to further "original research" when you imply that an unsigned Britannica article can be improved upon by "secondary sources". A Britannica article normally represents the consensus of expert opinion, so should be deferred to be those otherwise inclined to go hunt down all the unrepresentative, fringy "secondary sources" that they can find. I'd call that "original research" in that they are trying to being a new, hitherto unappreciated "truth" to humanity. Bdell555 15:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Over at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content, User:Mosquera posits that WP:NOR forbids the use of many free images because they have never been published anywhere. Please join in the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 46#Fair Use Rationale: The Extended Mix. Thank you. howcheng { chat} 21:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Using search results (the number of results produced) to back claims of popularity, original research or not? There's an edit war stalemate regarding WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:OR at Stephanie (LazyTown)#Internet Phenomenon. — pd_THOR | =/\= | 12:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
An interesting discussion has come up at Talk:Rylands Library Papyrus P52#So what does it say?. This article is about the earliest NT manuscript, which is a credit card size piece of papyrus that contains roughly 25 words on both sides, with many of the words cut off. I looked at the Greek text found on a website, and I used Bible translation software to come up with a rough approximation of a translation of the fragment. But I used some artistic licensing on the lacuna. Another user took a known English translation of the whole verses in question, arranged the words to correspond to the Greek word order, and again, comparing it to the Greek, made a rough approximation of what words are included, and what words are partially cut off by bolding certain corresponding English words.
The issue is, we have been unable to find a source that gives a direct translation of just what is just on the fragment (we have sources that have reconstructed translations of the fragment and surrounding missing text, but not of just the fragmented text). One user suggested moving his work from the talk page to a website and citing that website, and that's obviously original research.
But now I think we've been thinking about this too hard, because isn't this just a simple matter of translation? Is it really original research if we translate text? Or even use a known English translation and note approximate word cut off points based on the original Greek? - Andrew c [talk] 17:48, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Is it correct to say that this section is full of OR/Synthesis of published material service to advance a position? Looks exactly like that to me... Dreadstar † 19:50, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a dispute about OR/Synthesis in an article on the "What the Bleep Do We Know" talk page. Any assistance in clearing the matter up would be greatly appreciated. Dreadstar † 01:44, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
An RfC was opened for this issue. I invite everyone to comment on the issue in the RfC section of the 'Bleep' talkpage. Dreadstar † 09:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Please see: Wikipedia:Requests for verification
A proposal designed as a process similar to {{ prod}} to delete articles without sources if no sources are provided in 30 days.
It reads:
Some editors see this as necessary to improve Wikipedia as a whole and assert that this idea is supported by policy, and others see this as a negative thing for the project with the potential of loss of articles that could be easily sourced.
I would encourage your comments in that page's talk or Mailing list thread on this proposal WikiEN-l: Proposed "prod" for articles with no sources
Signed Jeepday ( talk) 14:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi.
I saw this: "The inclusion of a view that is held only by a tiny minority may constitute original research." Does this mean that even if such a view has been published and documented in a reliable source, it still cannot be included simply because very few people believe it?! How exactly does few people believing something make it "original" research, anyway? mike4ty4 05:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
The discussion refers to Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II#Treatment_of_POWs
And is currently and has been in the past conducted in
Previously: Talk:Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II#Historical_context.2F.22US_and_Australian.22
Currently: Talk:Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II#Prisoner_Execution_Sources
The paragraph itself has been the issue of quite a lot of recent discussions, some of which can be found in the talk archive page, but the discussion that we need a second opinion on now is at the end of:
Talk:Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II#Prisoner_Execution_Sources
If you have the patience and time, please read through the talk page and perhaps provide your comments because right now it feels as if we are talking past each other and walking in circles, we need some external imput. Thanks, -- Stor stark7 Talk 22:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
The suggested example and supporting text from previous discussion is:
Jones says he obtained a degree in physics at university X between 1977 and 1980reliable source 1, but according to Department of Education records, university X closed down in 1976reliable source 2, raising doubts as to whether he ever attendedno source.
This analysis, suggesting that Jones has lied about his qualifications, is not permitted on Wikipedia, even though it is backed up by reliable sources, and the logic is sound. This is because coming to a novel conclusion requires a careful analysis of the facts which Wikipedia is not in a position to provide. It is possible, for example, that one of the sources was wrong (reliable sources are not necessarily infallible sources), or that they had been interpreted incorrectly (for example, the names of two universities could have become mixed up).
A researcher coming to the conclusion that he had lied about his qualifications would carry out a careful analysis of the facts, and would need to stand ready to respond if Jones challenged the allegations. Wikipedia is not in a position to verify this analysis, or stand by the allegations if challenged, as this is not part of its mission to summarise existing published knowledge. Therefore the allegations can only be published in Wikipedia if they can be attributed to a reliable published source. ''Italic text This is not intended to amend policy, simply to provide a more coherent example than the one in place at the moment. Spenny 08:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
For anyone monitoring the page who has not picked up on this due to the noise, it is suggested that this replace the current synthesis example. Assuming there are no objections over say the next 24 hours, I will assume there is a consensus that this is an improvement. Thanks Spenny 13:47, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I think this is a terrible example of an analysis. The example appears to be one in which, for the purpose of the example, the two facts are to be accepted as facts. It's gratuitous and pursuing a position to claim that in this particular case maybe the facts aren't true, that a mistake was made in one or the other of them. The exact same arguments could be made for the exclusion of single statements (about single facts) - maybe they are untrue, making Wikipedia totally empty. The example dodges the real issue, which is that logic is excluded from Wikipedia unless the logic is included by quoting someone else who made the logical analysis. Note that in such a case the identical objection could be made: maybe the person being quoted didn't have the facts straight. In practice NOR is used by partisans to remove logical conclusions that expose weaknesses in the positions advanced by the partisans. The typical use of NOR isn't to improve Wikipedia, it is to foster particular beliefs by removing valid material (by any reasonable standard but not by Wikipedia's standards) from Wikipedia. I don't see a "basic principle" being communicated, I see ad hoc arguments used to justify a principle that really isn't compatible with the notion of an encyclopedia. Only in the specific case that A and B are combined to produce C is the rationale used that "well maybe either A or B is incorrect." A alone can be cited, B alone can be cited. Combining them does not make either of them less reliable.
Minasbeede 14:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Minasbeede 20:29, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Minasbeede 23:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm doing both. I am committing the sin of OR by noticing that the example cited is a bad example and is cooked to support the policy - but inconsistent and illogical. It's OK to cite any one thing but if you cite two things and link them logically then you have committed an offense against Wikipedia policy because one or the other of the things cited could be in error. That's supposed to justify the policy but it's wildly inconsistent. Let's see an example in which the policy is not justified by claiming that possibly one of the citations is in error. Such an example (I feel) illustrates the problem with the policy: it's illogical.
The example does not "faithfully" represent the policy. The example only works by making an assumption about the possible fallibility of one or the other sources cited. If a cited source can be fallible then that's a blanket problem for everything in Wikipedia, is it not? Take away the assumed possible fallibility and the example is an absurdity: you cannot logically link two things to reach a conclusion. That is the problem with WP:NOR, which is often used by partisans to remove material they do not wish to have published. I go along with such removal because, currently, that is the policy. I even removed some of my own editing myself because of the policy.
The nature of the world and of reality is not such that every possible valid conclusion has been published, particularly when the majority of sources themselves explicitly avoid reaching conclusions. It is valid for an encyclopedia to synthesize information, it is disastrous for an encyclopedia to avoid synthesis. An encyclopedia is not a huge compendium of "he said - she said" type material.
Thanks for your response.
Under the current policies Wikipedia isn't an encyclopedia at all. I go along with that. If the desire is to have a non-encyclopedia then that's that. You can't have a real encyclopedia if you exclude logic and thought.
The example is a bad example, the policy is a bad policy - if the desire is to have a real encyclopedia.
I don't think I need to read the dogma, thank you very much.
By the way, in this discussion there is a violent violation of WP:NPOV. Anything that doesn't bolster or bow to the dogma is opposed: the dogma is given favored treatment, even to the extent of cooking fallacious examples.
Thanks for the response.
Minasbeede 19:05, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Minasbeede 20:48, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have any objections to the proposed example replacing the current example in the policy?
Crum375 makes the point that the example could specifically address the "juxtaposition" of sources to give an implied synthesis. I agree that there are situations in which this implied synthesis through juxtaposition of sources is inappropriate - and that the example is one of them. However, as the current policy does not specifically address this point I think we should set this aside as a separate issue to be addressed later. This is because proposed example is intended to explain existing policy, and not to change it or add to it.
Any comments? Enchanter 19:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) I respectfully disagree, then. I believe that JUXT (not under a specific name), as a type of SYNT, is very much part of the current policy. It is a situation where by putting two sources together we are advancing a position that is not directly advanced by any specific source. It is a typical situation where people fail to understand NOR and SYNT, and thus is important to illustrate and explain. If we are going to invest an effort and replace the current example, it makes a lot of sense to use an example that addresses JUXT. Crum375 22:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, I would much prefer explaining it without introducing the abbreviation "JUXT" to the policy page. How about:
What do you think? Enchanter 23:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
For the record, I'm strongly opposed to the synthesis policy, for reasons that have already been very well articulated by Minasbeede. I hadn't realized until now that we had this crazy policy, and I don't think there's a decent article on Wikipedia that doesn't violate it. The Jones example is potentially libelous and potentially POV; those are the real reasons to disallow it. We don't need the synthesis rule, and it makes no sense. -- BenRG 23:44, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Slimvirgin, following from the thread above, please could you provide a link to the talk page discussion, from which you recall that a participant had provided a link to an earlier version of the Chicago Manual of Style, which gives the definition of plagiarism in the example you wrote. From my understanding of the case and the source, I think it is very unlikely that any such version of the CMS, or any such talk page comment, actually exists, and I have strong reasons to believe that what you have written is inaccurate. I will gladly withdraw these comments if you can provide such a reference to the talk page and an earlier version of the manual with the definition. Enchanter 10:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
To check whether we are any closer to consensus yet, does anyone still support retaining the current "plagiarism" example in its current form? If so, please explain, with evidence, whether it reflects the sources and original case accurately, and explain the logic of the example for the benefit of those who think it is ambiguous and unclear. Enchanter 23:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Enchanter, this is my last post in this thread, as I think we are just going round in circles. The situation is very clear. It doesn't matter how accurate the CMOS reference is. It doesn't matter what the CMOS definition says about plagiarism, or what it doesn't say. You simply don't seem to get it. The only point that matters is that the editor used a source (CMOS) to try to advance a position, while the source did not refer to Smith and Jones at all. To connect CMOS to Smith and Jones, you need a source that does that for us, and there is no such source here. Nothing else matters. This is the essence of SYNT, and the fact that you still don't get it, shows that this example is excellent, as you are still hung up in the technicalities, not realizing the big picture - you cannot use the CMOS as a source for Smith and Jones, regardless of what it says or doesn't say, unless you have a source that connects CMOS to Smith and Jones. Thanks, Crum375 00:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
The above summary from Dreadstar is helpful. To add to this, and clarify how the current misquoting of the CMOS came about:
The net result is that Wikipedia has a definition on the policy page that Wikipedia says is sourced from the Chicago manual, but in fact comes from the Harvard manual. The source of this error is not the writers of the original case, but instead the writers of this policy page. To me, this is a straightforward error, which should be fixed, and I am surprised by the arguments saying that it doesn't matter. If we misrepresent a source, it makes Wikipedia look inaccurate. In this case, it is particularly ironic because we are misquoting a source which is specifically about maintaining high academic standards, and doing so on a policy page which is specifically about being true to sources. I don't accept that inaccurate quoting of sources doesn't matter because it is on a policy page rather than an article; being truthful and accurate is important all the time, not just when you are writing articles. I suspect that there is a tendency here to assume that if something has been on a policy page for a long time, it must be correct and accurate. I think this assumption should be challenged - there have been plenty of examples of inaccuracies persisting in policy pages for months without being spotted. Enchanter 17:30, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
In a previous discussion on the example, I felt that one of the problems was that the policy page didn't really create a usable description of what the issue of synthesis was trying to address. I think if the words are right then the issue of needing a good example fades away. It seems that an example does not seem to address the problem, because if it is obvious, then it fails the subtlety test that people seem to like, and if it is subtle, then it is not obvious what the point it is making is. Let's see if we can get a better wording to explain the issue. I don't personally like the A, B C aproach, it is too algebraic and offputting. I suggest something like this:
When considering edits, it is important to understand that it is not just the introduction of facts that need to be considered, but the analysis of those facts too. In Wikipedia, the process of creating new ideas out of facts is called synthesis. An unsourced analysis of facts is just as much original research as the presentation of information without sources. A simple example would be to present a school's test results over a number of years and based on these make a judgment on whether the school was improving. The provision of citations for the test results still does not allow us to make any significant assessment of the school's performance as we cannot verify that any unusual issues have been properly accounted for.
While creating articles is about gathering information and there is a low level of analysis that cannot be avoided in that process, it is assumed that there should never be any significant new analysis. The test for what is reasonable is "Does it advance a position?". If the analysis required to present an idea is more than simple summary then an objector would be entitled to request the citation of the analysis, especially if it creates a contentious viewpoint. This applies however well grounded in fact the analysis may be. If no justification is forthcoming, then the analysis should be removed to ensure that content is verifiable.
I'm not wedded to this wording at all, but thought that some clarity on the main page would be useful. Comments? Spenny 23:24, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Let's say you conducted an interview with the creator of a TV show or whatever, and then decided to personally put the information you gathered into a Wikipedia article prior to the interview being printed or whatever. Let's also say that the interview was not faked, and that it actually took place. This, in effect, could be consitered original reasearch and, as such, would prevent (possibly) valueable information from being added to an article. How would you get around something like that? -- Wack'd Talk to me! • Admire my handiwork! 17:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Claims must be capable of being attributed to a reliable source. If someone challenges a claim it must be possible to provide a citation to a reliable published (accessable) source. WAS 4.250 18:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Could do with some input over at Talk:Family First Party on the issue of presenting statistics/identifying patterns that are derived from sourced data but not explicitly stated at the cited source. -- Calair 06:32, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Would it be OR to watch a TV show and write a plot summary about it? I would think so, because it is interpretation of a primary source. Corpx 03:22, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
What about the verifiability of the stuff mentioned from a TV show? Corpx 14:39, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I noticed many of the articles on TV and cartoon characters contains a lot of "facts" on their personality derived from their actions in various episodes. (The Simpsons, Family Guy, Daria etc...) Is this OR? I don't think there is any official word on the characters' behaviour, but certainly fans shouldn't just speculate this and that?-- Kylohk 08:55, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
A lot of it looks to me like original research, but the people who make that judgement need to be the people who know the subject matter best, not people who know little about the subject. We get people deleting well known facts from bio articles and science articles who don't know the first thing about the subject and say they challenge the claim. Encyclopedia writing has to first be about actually knowing what you are writing about and not the mere blind application of rules. WAS 4.250 15:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
In the article The Microsoft Sound I tried to include the fact that the name and location of the start-up file on Windows 95 is C:\Windows\Media\The Microsoft Sound.wav. Another editor keeps deleting this because it is uncited. Here are the relevant extracts from the Talk page:
Is this the sillest citation request you have ever seen, or am I in the wrong here? Any guidance would be gratefully received. HairyWombat 20:58, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I would lke to see "Facts that are widely known and easily verifiable are an exception". An example used by Rich Farmbrough over on Talk:The Microsoft Sound is the fact that the Harry Potter series contains seven books, and is about a young wizard called Harry Potter. This would take care of the location of a particular file (which started this discussion). If you read between the lines of the guidelines, they almost say this already. All that is needed, I would suggest, is something more obvious to fight off the Wikilawyers. HairyWombat 20:16, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't know that the "Harry Potter series contains seven books" and even if true it is only true for a certain definition of "series" and only true as of some time frame. So we need at least "As of 2007 the Harry Potter series of books sold by [so and so] contains seven books" and a link to [so and so]. I know some people who believe that evolution is widely known and easily verifiable and others who believe the opposite. There is a story of three men on a train who see a cow and one says "Look cows here are black"; responds a second "No, that cow is black"; responds the third "No, this side of that cow is black." WAS 4.250 23:41, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Speaking of "pop culture", what are your opinions on Bigfoot in popular culture being OR? In the article's AfD, it is being argued that the article violates NOR. – Dreadstar † 18:03, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps it would be instructive to consider ways in which those with an agenda (that agenda involving propagation of an untruth) structuring what they say so that it doesn't violate any Wikipedia policy but in a way that any rebuttal can be removed for violation of a Wikipedia policy. As an example, in the debate over the privatization of Social Security it appears that great care has been taken to separate any exposition of the possible details of such a program (it should be very well noted that the details are of overriding importance) from close association with President Bush. That way he can make broad, general, unsubstantiated claims and the other supporters can provide what they claim to be details about the proposed program without creating any association between Bush and the claimed details. If, subsequently, it turns out that the program got established on the basis of people believing those claimed details apologists can correctly point out that Bush (and by extension, all who pushed to get the plan enacted) never committed to those details nor promised that the program would be as described by any others (even though those others were acting in concert with the administration.) (Taking a broader view, politicians in general employ such tactics: they weren't invented by Bush.)
The net effect for Wikipedia would be that Wikipedia was misused as a part of a propaganda campaign. Wikipedia restricts itself to what is said by others. Analyzing what might be meant or what motives there might be for making deceptive statements is forbidden unless that analysis was first published somewhere else. (The kicker is that those doing the analysis would almost certainly be opponents of the proposal and the proponents of the proposal would object to the inclusion of their non-neutral statements - even though those non-neutral statements were truthful and accurate.) In the past that analysis of hidden meaning or motives was known as "reading between the lines." Reading between the lines probably is an individual obligation but when something that purports to be a neutral encyclopedia publishes material that adds support to a political deception a false appearance of truth and honesty is bolstered and fosters a disinclination to "read between the lines." -- Minasbeede 17:01, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi to all. I am a newbie of wiki.en and i have made in these days some contribution to new articles. For many reasons many of them were deleted by other wikipedians because this or that.
Lastly, there is an edit-war around an article, regarding an old japaneise aircrafts that i, seen the datas available on others sources, had rated better than a similar type with the same engine. So i have been accused to have said not a simple NNPOV, but a OR. I have made an 'original research' becuase, seen speed, range and some others parameteres, i made a perfectly reasonable sintesys claiming that that aircraft was overall better than the other. So i made an OR. Even an aeronautical engeneer, or so auto-claimed, have stated that my analisis was rational, but, still, violated OR.
Someone above have said a precise sentence: there is probably no good wiki-article, that not violate such policy. And i agree, it's madness.
I knew in wiki, that there is the proibition of 'Original researches' meant as: you cannot post datas and stufies made by your self. Obviousely, this was then traslated by some 'integralist' in the fullowing assumption: you cannot think on your own. So this is not a manner to make an encyclopedia, not even happened in the whole history of mankind. But is happening here, in wiki, the most big box of culture for the future generations. And who don't agree with this is a 'traitor' of the wiki-spirit.
I want to remark that this policy is not only madness, but also unpratical, because the original means were too stretched on all the possible ways, making a cure worse than sickness.
So you have the point. I agree to have a well referenced articles, atleast on important things. I not agree on the handpoles of Citation needed also because one says: the sky is blue.
But as data elaboration, there is no way that this works. It's an absurd rules, born by a reasonable concern, but grew as a 'patriot act' thinked to interdict the mind activity of the contibutors, as 'PRESUME GOOD FAITH' is reversed in 'PRESUME BAD FAITH, so ask references in every statement, even the less important'. Someone above has given the example of the Public security privatized. Sure, this is an hot argument, that needs to pay attenction IF Wikipedia wants to make 'culture', to let the people know. If there is consensous, a statement should had been written about even without sources:If someone don't agree, then Wiki is always 2 thing characterized:
Because this policy negates the valour of mind elaboration made by millions of persons, that has willing to help to create this project.
If these are the terms of Wiki, if this is not an 'Encyclopedia' but a discharge of 'he/she said', so set up the overall failure of this project. Away from guarantee better informations, exculding logic, matematic and good sense, and above all, a dialectic between autors, so Wiki cannot simply cope with any of encyclopedias. It's not written by professionists, and if Plagued by such totally unlogic and destructive (See=TAliban) policies, that the informations findable here are of the same level of the 'good' food of Mc Donalds.To me, if i have clue of these policies on Wiki.en and the zelous application (even in ininfluent statements) made by some wikipedians, i simply didn't accepted to write a word in the NS0. Just as example.-- Stefanomencarelli 11:29, 5 August 2007 (UTC)PS_Please change Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: it's not free and not an encyclopedia (and no wikilove, also).
Very much. Thanks. PS. Did you know that B-2's cost (1993) is 5000 times higher than B-17s (in 1942)? It's a disturbing effect of the modern times tecnology.-- Stefanomencarelli 18:57, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to state for the record my disgust with this policy of 'No original research', as it is comepletely ludicrous. All research at one point or another starts OFF being original research by some person or organization. To claim 'original research' is a bad thing is the height of hypocrisy. If nobody did any research to begin with, none of thise information would be available to disseminate on such a large scale. We would have no dictionaries, no encyclopedias, no atlases, no cenus counts.
Strictly speaking, if a person does not take the time to do research themselves, even if said research is simply the act of researching a SOURCE in order to make an addition to a page (which in itself is a form of original research because you have to FIND the source if it's not easily found), there is no research at all, and all pages have to have additions made based on new or rediscovered information by people who make these changes, often having to make a point of, you guessed it, doing original research to locate this information.
My opinion on the situation is this: This policy is hypocritical and must be done away with.
Almost forgot to sign this. Warwolf1 09:36, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, no OR should be like: i cannot write that Shoa is never happened because i found new proofs (not sources). All the rest is more and more questionble as teh interpretation of this policy is strechted to the narrower levels. And with 2 millions editors, good luck!-- Stefanomencarelli 09:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
No original research is intended to be a bit broad, and well it should be. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a research journal. We should be reporting what the reliable secondary sources available to us say about the subject. This is a significant principle in Wikipedia. Subjects lacking reliable secondary sources are generally not considered notable and are subject to deletion. NPOV demands not that we formulate some theoretically neutral view, but rather that we present views in proportion to the available reliable sources and plainly report the claims & observations of others. We should not be drawing out our own conclusions or interpreting primary sources. There are plenty of wikis and Foundation projects where original research is not only welcome, but even encouraged. However, this is not one of them. Vassyana 10:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
If the observations are "so obvious" such as "Pluto is smaller than Jupiter", it's a fairly sure bet someone has already published the observation. Try textbooks and general audience books on the subject. Textbooks tend to make a lot of "obvious" observations (Pluto being smaller than Jupiter, or the Earth is round instead of flat, are both great examples). General audience books tend to make many "plain-to-see" observations, because they are trying to present the topic to a very broad audience with minimal to no professional knowledge. Such observations and facts are far easier to reference than is often presented. Vassyana 10:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I think there is a consensus that when an article quotes or (noncontroversially) paraphrases what somebody said, a primary source is preferable to a secondary source. Am I correct? For example, if you say, "In 1782, Benjamin Franklin said _____", you would want to cite, if possible, to the primary source (i.e., the newspaper, diary, or public record where the quote originally occurs), rather than a 2005 article in the The New Republic that itself cites the primary source. This makes it much easier for the reader to verify that the quotation is accurate, and avoids a level of indirection. COGDEN 19:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
WP:COI considerations apply where the claims are related to religious dogma. WAS 4.250 00:11, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
I've revised the section on primary, secondary, and tertiary sources to remove the stated "rule" that primary sources should not be used except in rare situations. There is no consensus for this proposition, and this policy article can only include rules for which there is a consensus. If someone wants to establish a consensus for this, then we can re-insert it, but for now, it should not be there.
Primary sources are widely used across Wikipedia, and several editors on this talk page have agreed that primary sources are even preferable to secondary sources (not just acceptable) in at least some situations. Moreover, most of the reasons people have proposed for favoring either primary or secondary sources in particular situations have nothing to do with original research. I've revised this section to reflect this, and to focus the section back on the subject of original research. As revised, the section makes no judgment about what type of source is preferable, so long as it is not used to support original research. Indeed, there are original research pitfalls in citing any source, primary or otherwise. Other than removing the non-consensus preference for secondary sources, I don't think the revision makes any significant changes, other than in terms of clarity and style. COGDEN 19:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) I've reverted the edit. The preference for secondary sources is long established in Wikipedia policy. Trying to alter this principle affects other policies and guidelines on a significant level. (And I would even argue it would be a fundamental shift in the focus and standards of Wikipedia.) For example. WP:V#Sources reads in the opening sentence: "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." (emphasis added) The preference for non-primary source is clearly stated. To address one specific aspect reverted: Reliable sources are "are authors or publications regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. Reliable publications are those with an established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight." (emphasis added) This means that primary sources cannot be called "reliable sources" without contradicting the very guideline linked. In essence, the preference for secondary sources is simply a repetition of what is contained in the relevant policies and guidelines. Trying to make your sort of change will require a discussion about making significant changes to multiple policies and rules, or at the very least will have to be addressed at WT:V and WT:RS, as those are the principles that best cover this particular content rule. Vassyana 22:50, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
I for one find the current text encourages wiki-lawyering to (1) remove material referenced to multiple primary sources and (2) insert material referenced to dubious tertiary sources. People regularly cite these pages when supporting opposite sides, and reaching opposite conclusions, in such edit wars. Therefore, this requires (1) enough clean-up that people can agree on what this means and (2) enough consideration of different perspectives, different concerns, etc. so that the rewrite doesn't run roughshod over appropriate practices. I suggest that primary, secondary, and sometimes tertiary sources are all suitable for general reference, given other indicators of reliability.
This doesn't cover everything. One more thing: when various sources define movements, religions, etc., we shouldn't take these definitions too seriously, and should never take these definitions more seriously than how people consistently describe themselves. I'm bloody sick of the argument that Ben Tucker's ideas don't meet "the" "definition" of socialism. Jacob Haller 00:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
No source is itself (qua source) primary, secondary, or tertiary. It is the use of a source that makes it primary, secondary, or tertiary with regard to that use. Without even basic understanding of the terminology we are using; WP:IAR is the only hope. WAS 4.250 03:32, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Vassyana. I see you reverted the proposed change again today. I agree that there's not a consensus. I feel that any change in policy that upgrades the status of primary sources is going to degrade the quality of the encyclopedia. Here's the sort of thing that worries me: suppose I have personal information about some matter, information that hasn't been published, but that I would like to cite in Wikipedia. If any primary source is valid, then why couldn't I simply write an affidavit, file it at a courthouse, upload it to a commons, and then cite it in the article? In my mind, the current policy helps guard against this sort of thing. TimidGuy 15:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Here in Italy we have a proverb: 'Made the law, decouvered the trick'. Is it so terrible, as overall rule, that the stuff published will be eventually challenghed with proper facts by millions other wikicontributors, to generate a concrete evolution and improvement of the articles? All the rules of the worlds will never assure the reliability and the truth over wikipedia datas. You cannot cite any source and do so a perfectly true claim. I can witness a politician contested by the crow (with even photos), and the day after a 'secondary source' as a newspaper will be 'available' to distort totally the facts happened, claiming the hot welcome he had. I can found a family dead under ruins, bombed by some fighter, and the day later see the claims on mass-media that they were 'all taliban warriors'. So go figure, the sources worths nothing if one support one or the other POV, there are all around even too examples to be made. If this screening of Wiki informations is impossible, then no reliable information could be guaranteed by wikipedia. Sorry.
More: a Personal Point ov View is not necessarly bad itself, seen that a judge, after all, express a sentence both 'personal' and 'neutral'. OTOH, there are the advocates or speakers of politicians that claiming things that they don't think but are directly the POV of they bosses. So a speaker, not sayng proper POV statements, 'should be' acceptable, and a judge not.
Perhaps i miss somethings, but let me repeat, the real needings for Wiki are: Be bold, Use goodsense, Ignore the rules and Search consensus plus the best: Search the truth. These should worths in Wiki, much more than 11112x10Small Textpolicies, often in contradiction one against the other, and good mainly to waste time and create a mass of burocrats. Let darwinsm do the work on the pages, and leave the 'creationism' party, that pretends to solve all with the 'table of law'. It dont' works as the free discussion (and as free discussion i mean talk with someone that don't treath handlyng the policies as hammers).-- Stefanomencarelli 12:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we should define different kinds of claims, and then what kinds of sources can support each claim. As extreme cases: Jacob Haller 19:39, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Expand and/or criticize:
Expand and/or criticize:
I see a contradiction and I need to seek objective clarification. Specifically, many articles exist on wikipedia that are based on reliable primary sources. Many of these are at first blush benign, such as New Hampshire communities by household income. In this case, the only source is a reliable primary source: an official New Hampshire state government website that allows the extraction of data from a database.
Apparently this database is based on U.S. census data.
Effectively, the New Hampshire database is a restatement of U.S. census data. It contains a variety of fields.
The problem with the article New Hampshire communities by household income is that the original contributor decided which fields to extract, and what article to create. Using the same database, another contributor might create:
While ranking New Hampshire communities by household income seems logical and benign, such an article turns wikipedia into a secondary source, and not the tertiary wikipedia is supposed to be.
In deciding which of such articles to write, the original contributor is making an evaluation of the various fields, and selecting one.
Additionally, such lists are not encyclopedic, and are often substitutes for categories. E.g., why have an article titled "" when there is a category Category:Academics of the University of Cambridge?
Ramifications: Of course, many such articles exist. Deleting such articles will likely leave a sour taste in many wikipedians’ mouths.
To address this, I see two options:
Looking forward to other's thoughts. (If changing this policy is out of the question, could you kindly direct where I should take this issue?) TableManners 06:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Stevertigo's recent addition is a bit too abstract (sorry!) for me to follow. Are there some examples of articles that were abstracted upward as he describes? Tom Harrison Talk 19:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
That addition was unnecessary and I am glad it was removed. This is a policy page, not a dissertation. Language has to be kept simple and to the point. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
"A newspaper article is a primary source if it reports events, but a secondary source if it analyses and comments on those events." Primary, Secondary & Tertiary Sources Anyone who wants to know the meaning of "Primary, Secondary & Tertiary Sources" should click that link and read. It is easiest to view sources as themselves primary or secondary but in fact at wikipedia it is important to realize that if we say "This source [so and so] said 'whatever'.[ref]" then we are using that source as a primary source for what it is saying. If a newspaper says the policeman said "Bob told me he killed Jay"; then we can use that report as a primary, secondary, or tertiary source depending on how we word it. If we say "Bob killed Jay"[ref] then we are using that newspaper report as a tertiary source. If we say "Newspaper [such and such] says the policeman said "Bob told me he killed Jay." then we are using that newspaper as a primary source. Which is better? Using it as a primary source. But some people here don't get that and insist that using primary sources is not as good as using secondary sources, when the key for wikipedia is not the source but how we use the source. WAS 4.250 14:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I've made some edits to the Jelly bean article, about the candy. In this article we have a table of colors flavors, which is meant for the basic store-brand jellybeans which usually have only 8 or 9 flavors. I wanted to clean up one column where we list "black" as "anise/licorice".
The background is that almost all candies popularly spoken of as "licorice" are actually flavored with either anise oil or a synthetic equivalent. At least in the U.S., only certain gourmet brands are actually made with licorice root or extracts thereof, and they generally advertise this on their packaging. So black jellybeans, which are popularly referred to as "licorice" flavored, are often actually "anise" flavored.
My change was instead of having the unwieldly "anise/licorice" in the table, was to put "licorice" with a footnote that says "Many "licorice" candies are actually flavored with anise oil", with a quote, citation, and a link to a journal article explaining the subject. I felt that better explains the issue to the reader, and clears up a popular misconception.
Anyway, another editor keeps reverting it claiming "OR". I tried to meet him halfway by discussing what he meant by OR ( and also hoping to convince him that the fact itself was true before trotting out the rulebook ), but that didn't work out, and he moved the discussion off his talk page mid-conversation.
This is only a guess, but the point of contention seems to center around an implied inference. For example, if I made an inference to join "Licorice candies are really anise" with "Jellybeans are a candy" to get "Licorice jellybeans are really anise", that would be an example of SYNT.
However, that's not what I did, and I'd like to counter with the following points:
There is a current example of the problem which came up on the Administrator Incidents page discussed [ here]. Someone spotted that a BBC employee apparently seemed to be editing the pages related to criticism. There appears to be a sensible response [ here (there are a couple more corrections after)]. However, note that the argument is that they have checked the (primary) source which justifies the edit taking out the press bias of presumably deliberately misquoting the report. There are a few things here (does the remaining text in the article which notes that that the report was misrepresented in the press constitute OR - yes it appears to). It is also interesting as it brings in the question of reliable sources. We know that the Evening Standard does have vocal political campaigning, therefore for most purposes it is not a reliable source. On the other hand, we get into a problem as the article is discussing criticisms of the BBC and it is clear that these criticisms are being made. Wikipedia is being used to publish a political agenda, and potentially some interpretations of policy will encourage that, rather than resist it.
Discuss! 10:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Let's see where we are here with a straw poll. The issue, summarized as neutrally as possible, is as follows:
From 2003 to late 2006,
Wikipedia:No original research indicated that editors could use
primary sources,
secondary sources, and
tertiary sources, so long as there was no original research. Around November [late summer] 2006, a statement was added to the policy indicating in bold that Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources, and that use of primary sources should be "rare". [There was some opposition to the change at the time, but for whatever reason, the change remained]. No explicit statement was added against tertiary sources, but their disfavoring is implied by the above bolded statement.
Please indicate your opinions regarding the following questions:
Should Wikipedia:No original research oppose the general use of primary sources?
(UTC)
Should Wikipedia:No original research oppose the general use of tertiary sources?
This is not a vote, but rather an invitation to discussion. I have endeavored to word the questions neutrally and generically, to invite broad comments about this aspect of policy. I believe these question cut to the core of what is being discussed and debated above, without leading a reader to draw conclusions about how the policy currently reads. Vassyana 23:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Cogden, I reverted your removal of the sentence prioritizing secondary sources. This is a practice that has strong support. Can you say what your objection to it is? SlimVirgin (talk) (contribs) 21:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
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If there is a poster of a sports event (specifically, one like boxing or wrestling), is it OR to state who is on the poster? Someone keeps reverting my edits on one article saying it's OR to state who is on the poster (even thought the poster is right in the infobox). - unsigned
I feel we should allow OR when something is bloody plain obvious. If an article were to say: in this video, "such and so" is said, wikipedia should be allowed to do so; even if no notable reliable source exists that says that the video says "such and so" provided that anyone can easily verify that the statement is true by simply watching the video.
In other words: things which are self-evident or almost trivial, should not have to pass the RS criterion. It is ludicrous to demand reliable sources for air is something we can breath or daylight originates from the Sun.
Rationale: the purpose of RS and OR is guaranteeing some level of reliablity. Slacking up as described does not compromise that. — Xiutwel (talk) 10:01, 9 July 2007 (UTC)
Having established that editors required an example based on real life experience, I constructed this example from a real dispute that I was involved in. It has been reverted as unsuitable writing for a policy page. It was at a level of detail required to make a discussion of the problems of NOR work, in my opinion. I may not participate further as I have other commitments but leave this as my catalyst to a proper discussion on how rules can end up with inappropriate results . Spenny 10:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Spenny 10:27, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
Start of addition
Synthesis is a complicated concept and so it is worth working though a more detailed example. In the context of Wikipedia, careless use of the rules can lead to some unusual statements being claimed based on referenced sources. Often this might come about due to the editing process itself, where people seek to find citations that back up writing.
Synthesis recognises that although information apparently can be carefully sourced, if the actual detail of a statement is not properly referenced, flawed logic can result in unsupportable claims. Whilst many of these simple logical deductions are harmless and need not be challenged, synthesis is not allowed where it is challenged and seeks to advance a position.
The following example made deliberately bizarre to emphasise the problem closely follows a real life example, though the concepts of the real problem might not be quite as obvious at first sight. To understand the example, we need to do some scene setting so we can understand how the subtle problems of synthesis arise. It is also helpful to understand that our editor is a fervent campaigner against tinted windshields on safety grounds.
In Nirvana, there was growing concern about road safety issues related to driving but tinted windshields and sunglasses were seen as essential to coping with this land of perpetual sunshine. There were a sudden spate of deaths on pedestrian crossings and eventually a public enquiry was held into these. The so-called Blindfold Inquiry dealt in some detail with the various causes and noted that although tinted windshields and sunglasses had been raised as concerns, the actual cause of all the accidents was found to be the craze of young drivers proving that they could drive around blindfolded. There were no accidents that fell outside this cause and the Inquiry was accepted as a sound review of various research. The Inquiry came to no conclusion on tinting windshields or using sunglasses whilst driving, but there was a general public consensus that these were a problem, no viable alternatives were accepted. The Inquiry was available as a public document on the web running to 100 pages of detailed summary and assessment of various opinions. Responding to increasing public concern the President of Nirvana called for the banning of tinted windscreens and scientists also were concerned and wanted to see all devices that impaired visibility removed.
A respected news agency in Nirvana published the following release which was accepted by all as a fair high level summary of the issues.
Tinted windshields blamed for road safety disasters
The President of Nirvana called for the banning of tinted windscreens saying, "Tinted windshields are a disaster in the making, they must be banned." Scientists involved in the famous crossing disasters inquiry also demanded changes, "The Blindfold Inquiry shows that impared visibility can cause disasters." Scientists went on to say, "Sunglasses are a timebomb, they must be banned."
The Wikipedia article was written as follows:
Tinted windshields, also known as sunglasses(citation to above news release), are a harmful form of decoration for cars. Scientists have blamed sunglasses as the cause of deaths on pedestrian crossings.(citation to above news release)
Editors had originally complained that sunglasses were not the same as windshields and the Inquiry did not blame sunglasses, but the author had looked for references and found the press release from the respected news agency.
The two key problems with this synthesis is that the release never actually says that sunglasses and windshields are the same thing, it relies on an assumption that the title of the release, the President and the scientists are talking about the same thing. The writing of the release in this loose fashion does allow the casual reader to be confused. Once read in this way, this synthesis using the article definition is used in circular fashion to confirm the article from the release. The fact that the statements come from the same source is not a barrier to a false analysis of the source.
The second issue is that scientists never actually said that tinted windshields were the problem in the release, and although it is common sense that poor visibility is a related issue, the scientists did not tie the sunglasses and the blindfolding together in the release, there is no quote that actually ties the two statements together. There is nothing incorrect or misleading in the press release, the quotes are accurate, but the summary loses the context of the statements.
The Inquiry had wording in it that clearly defined the problem yet policy is used to dismiss the high quality inquiry statement. The argument is that the press-release must be more appropriate to Wikipedia as from the perspective of the press-release the Inquiry is a primary source and does not apparently have the validity of a secondary source which has tested it. It shows the danger of assessing reliable sources incorrectly. We can also be critical of seeking to suggest that casual comments of scientists are suggested as scientific consensus. Regardless of these policy pages, editing requires that critical faculties remain engaged at all times.
End of addition
I copied it to Wikipedia:No original research/example 1. WAS 4.250 14:41, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
I am not suggesting adding anything to the policy but I want to make sure we all understand the same thing to be synthesis. So here is my example.
A 1914 encyclopedia article reads ( Races of the World) that "[The Caucasian race] leads the other races in literature, commerce and all the arts of civilization." The encyclopedia is American and it is plainly designed to comply with the ideas of contemporary educators. ( In its preparation we were able to secure the coöperation of specialists and educators whose standing will be recognized upon inspection of our list of editors and contributors. Advantage has been taken of suggestions which have come to us from many teachers during years of experience in the use of the former work, and it is believed that the present work will be found adequate and satisfactory.) It would be synthesis to put all this information together to say "White racial superiority was a commonly held belief among educators in America at the beginning of the 20th century".
The two points I want to make is that synthesis has just a good of chance coming up with the right answer as the the wrong answer. And secondly it can involve a single source. Synthesis is not disallowed because information found through synthesis is always wrong; it is disallowed because such information has a chance of being wrong. It much better practice (as well as policy) to find a source that directly addresses the issue rather than trying to make information that partially covers the issue fit by adding it together with other information. Synthesis goes hand and hand with lazy sourcing. If you take the time to find the best sources for the subject first, then you will have little to worry about regarding synthesis.-- BirgitteSB 17:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
As long as the source is clear to the reader, what is wrong with OR in Wikipedia? I am ready to start slapping down some straw dogs, so please consider your response. 01001 00:00, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
01001, the problem with your OR campaign is that you consistently insist that your OR views are correct because you think they are obvious, even when they are manifestly contradicted by a great deal of published scientific research (e.g. here and here). We do not allow this sort of "OR" in wikipedia, it would be like letting the creationists insist that the articles on evolution by natural selection are wrong because they disagree with them. Encyclopedias are supposed to reflect the current state of the world's knowledge, not be a collection of uninformed opinions. What you are advocating is not even original research, it's the censorship of scholarly research in place of your POV. Pete.Hurd 16:27, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I— Xiutwel (talk) am copying from a previous section, since the discussion had become rather lengthy with the excellent tractise on the dangers of synthesis inserted.
We do allow things in wikipedia that are not "assertions, theories, opinions, and arguments" therefore the sentence had to be changed to accurately reflect what was meant but was not actually said. WAS 4.250 21:03, 11 July 2007 (UTC)
I have a problem with this clause, since it is being used by persons to claim that an unsigned, collaboratively created Britannica-sourced article which reflects the consensus of experts is less "reliable" than the a signed article by a single self-styled expert out on the fringe of expert opinion. It directly conflicts with http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WP:Undue_weight#Undue_weight which says "If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts". Clearly, the Undue Weight policy says that a "commonly accepted reference text" can be used as a trump in a case of battling sources. But the policy on this page says that not only can they not be used as a trump against "secondary sources", they can actually be classed as "less reliable" than "secondary sources"! Just because some quack is willing to sign their name to some absurd claim, that does not mean that it thereby more "reliable" by virtue of that signature alone. Finally, you are just opening the door to further "original research" when you imply that an unsigned Britannica article can be improved upon by "secondary sources". A Britannica article normally represents the consensus of expert opinion, so should be deferred to be those otherwise inclined to go hunt down all the unrepresentative, fringy "secondary sources" that they can find. I'd call that "original research" in that they are trying to being a new, hitherto unappreciated "truth" to humanity. Bdell555 15:57, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Over at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content, User:Mosquera posits that WP:NOR forbids the use of many free images because they have never been published anywhere. Please join in the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Non-free content/Archive 46#Fair Use Rationale: The Extended Mix. Thank you. howcheng { chat} 21:05, 12 July 2007 (UTC)
Using search results (the number of results produced) to back claims of popularity, original research or not? There's an edit war stalemate regarding WP:V, WP:RS, and WP:OR at Stephanie (LazyTown)#Internet Phenomenon. — pd_THOR | =/\= | 12:29, 13 July 2007 (UTC)
An interesting discussion has come up at Talk:Rylands Library Papyrus P52#So what does it say?. This article is about the earliest NT manuscript, which is a credit card size piece of papyrus that contains roughly 25 words on both sides, with many of the words cut off. I looked at the Greek text found on a website, and I used Bible translation software to come up with a rough approximation of a translation of the fragment. But I used some artistic licensing on the lacuna. Another user took a known English translation of the whole verses in question, arranged the words to correspond to the Greek word order, and again, comparing it to the Greek, made a rough approximation of what words are included, and what words are partially cut off by bolding certain corresponding English words.
The issue is, we have been unable to find a source that gives a direct translation of just what is just on the fragment (we have sources that have reconstructed translations of the fragment and surrounding missing text, but not of just the fragmented text). One user suggested moving his work from the talk page to a website and citing that website, and that's obviously original research.
But now I think we've been thinking about this too hard, because isn't this just a simple matter of translation? Is it really original research if we translate text? Or even use a known English translation and note approximate word cut off points based on the original Greek? - Andrew c [talk] 17:48, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
Is it correct to say that this section is full of OR/Synthesis of published material service to advance a position? Looks exactly like that to me... Dreadstar † 19:50, 14 July 2007 (UTC)
There is a dispute about OR/Synthesis in an article on the "What the Bleep Do We Know" talk page. Any assistance in clearing the matter up would be greatly appreciated. Dreadstar † 01:44, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
An RfC was opened for this issue. I invite everyone to comment on the issue in the RfC section of the 'Bleep' talkpage. Dreadstar † 09:45, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Please see: Wikipedia:Requests for verification
A proposal designed as a process similar to {{ prod}} to delete articles without sources if no sources are provided in 30 days.
It reads:
Some editors see this as necessary to improve Wikipedia as a whole and assert that this idea is supported by policy, and others see this as a negative thing for the project with the potential of loss of articles that could be easily sourced.
I would encourage your comments in that page's talk or Mailing list thread on this proposal WikiEN-l: Proposed "prod" for articles with no sources
Signed Jeepday ( talk) 14:00, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Hi.
I saw this: "The inclusion of a view that is held only by a tiny minority may constitute original research." Does this mean that even if such a view has been published and documented in a reliable source, it still cannot be included simply because very few people believe it?! How exactly does few people believing something make it "original" research, anyway? mike4ty4 05:48, 6 July 2007 (UTC)
The discussion refers to Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II#Treatment_of_POWs
And is currently and has been in the past conducted in
Previously: Talk:Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II#Historical_context.2F.22US_and_Australian.22
Currently: Talk:Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II#Prisoner_Execution_Sources
The paragraph itself has been the issue of quite a lot of recent discussions, some of which can be found in the talk archive page, but the discussion that we need a second opinion on now is at the end of:
Talk:Allied_war_crimes_during_World_War_II#Prisoner_Execution_Sources
If you have the patience and time, please read through the talk page and perhaps provide your comments because right now it feels as if we are talking past each other and walking in circles, we need some external imput. Thanks, -- Stor stark7 Talk 22:55, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
The suggested example and supporting text from previous discussion is:
Jones says he obtained a degree in physics at university X between 1977 and 1980reliable source 1, but according to Department of Education records, university X closed down in 1976reliable source 2, raising doubts as to whether he ever attendedno source.
This analysis, suggesting that Jones has lied about his qualifications, is not permitted on Wikipedia, even though it is backed up by reliable sources, and the logic is sound. This is because coming to a novel conclusion requires a careful analysis of the facts which Wikipedia is not in a position to provide. It is possible, for example, that one of the sources was wrong (reliable sources are not necessarily infallible sources), or that they had been interpreted incorrectly (for example, the names of two universities could have become mixed up).
A researcher coming to the conclusion that he had lied about his qualifications would carry out a careful analysis of the facts, and would need to stand ready to respond if Jones challenged the allegations. Wikipedia is not in a position to verify this analysis, or stand by the allegations if challenged, as this is not part of its mission to summarise existing published knowledge. Therefore the allegations can only be published in Wikipedia if they can be attributed to a reliable published source. ''Italic text This is not intended to amend policy, simply to provide a more coherent example than the one in place at the moment. Spenny 08:26, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
For anyone monitoring the page who has not picked up on this due to the noise, it is suggested that this replace the current synthesis example. Assuming there are no objections over say the next 24 hours, I will assume there is a consensus that this is an improvement. Thanks Spenny 13:47, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I think this is a terrible example of an analysis. The example appears to be one in which, for the purpose of the example, the two facts are to be accepted as facts. It's gratuitous and pursuing a position to claim that in this particular case maybe the facts aren't true, that a mistake was made in one or the other of them. The exact same arguments could be made for the exclusion of single statements (about single facts) - maybe they are untrue, making Wikipedia totally empty. The example dodges the real issue, which is that logic is excluded from Wikipedia unless the logic is included by quoting someone else who made the logical analysis. Note that in such a case the identical objection could be made: maybe the person being quoted didn't have the facts straight. In practice NOR is used by partisans to remove logical conclusions that expose weaknesses in the positions advanced by the partisans. The typical use of NOR isn't to improve Wikipedia, it is to foster particular beliefs by removing valid material (by any reasonable standard but not by Wikipedia's standards) from Wikipedia. I don't see a "basic principle" being communicated, I see ad hoc arguments used to justify a principle that really isn't compatible with the notion of an encyclopedia. Only in the specific case that A and B are combined to produce C is the rationale used that "well maybe either A or B is incorrect." A alone can be cited, B alone can be cited. Combining them does not make either of them less reliable.
Minasbeede 14:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Minasbeede 20:29, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Minasbeede 23:59, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm doing both. I am committing the sin of OR by noticing that the example cited is a bad example and is cooked to support the policy - but inconsistent and illogical. It's OK to cite any one thing but if you cite two things and link them logically then you have committed an offense against Wikipedia policy because one or the other of the things cited could be in error. That's supposed to justify the policy but it's wildly inconsistent. Let's see an example in which the policy is not justified by claiming that possibly one of the citations is in error. Such an example (I feel) illustrates the problem with the policy: it's illogical.
The example does not "faithfully" represent the policy. The example only works by making an assumption about the possible fallibility of one or the other sources cited. If a cited source can be fallible then that's a blanket problem for everything in Wikipedia, is it not? Take away the assumed possible fallibility and the example is an absurdity: you cannot logically link two things to reach a conclusion. That is the problem with WP:NOR, which is often used by partisans to remove material they do not wish to have published. I go along with such removal because, currently, that is the policy. I even removed some of my own editing myself because of the policy.
The nature of the world and of reality is not such that every possible valid conclusion has been published, particularly when the majority of sources themselves explicitly avoid reaching conclusions. It is valid for an encyclopedia to synthesize information, it is disastrous for an encyclopedia to avoid synthesis. An encyclopedia is not a huge compendium of "he said - she said" type material.
Thanks for your response.
Under the current policies Wikipedia isn't an encyclopedia at all. I go along with that. If the desire is to have a non-encyclopedia then that's that. You can't have a real encyclopedia if you exclude logic and thought.
The example is a bad example, the policy is a bad policy - if the desire is to have a real encyclopedia.
I don't think I need to read the dogma, thank you very much.
By the way, in this discussion there is a violent violation of WP:NPOV. Anything that doesn't bolster or bow to the dogma is opposed: the dogma is given favored treatment, even to the extent of cooking fallacious examples.
Thanks for the response.
Minasbeede 19:05, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Minasbeede 20:48, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have any objections to the proposed example replacing the current example in the policy?
Crum375 makes the point that the example could specifically address the "juxtaposition" of sources to give an implied synthesis. I agree that there are situations in which this implied synthesis through juxtaposition of sources is inappropriate - and that the example is one of them. However, as the current policy does not specifically address this point I think we should set this aside as a separate issue to be addressed later. This is because proposed example is intended to explain existing policy, and not to change it or add to it.
Any comments? Enchanter 19:15, 10 July 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) I respectfully disagree, then. I believe that JUXT (not under a specific name), as a type of SYNT, is very much part of the current policy. It is a situation where by putting two sources together we are advancing a position that is not directly advanced by any specific source. It is a typical situation where people fail to understand NOR and SYNT, and thus is important to illustrate and explain. If we are going to invest an effort and replace the current example, it makes a lot of sense to use an example that addresses JUXT. Crum375 22:10, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
Well, I would much prefer explaining it without introducing the abbreviation "JUXT" to the policy page. How about:
What do you think? Enchanter 23:01, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
For the record, I'm strongly opposed to the synthesis policy, for reasons that have already been very well articulated by Minasbeede. I hadn't realized until now that we had this crazy policy, and I don't think there's a decent article on Wikipedia that doesn't violate it. The Jones example is potentially libelous and potentially POV; those are the real reasons to disallow it. We don't need the synthesis rule, and it makes no sense. -- BenRG 23:44, 20 July 2007 (UTC)
Slimvirgin, following from the thread above, please could you provide a link to the talk page discussion, from which you recall that a participant had provided a link to an earlier version of the Chicago Manual of Style, which gives the definition of plagiarism in the example you wrote. From my understanding of the case and the source, I think it is very unlikely that any such version of the CMS, or any such talk page comment, actually exists, and I have strong reasons to believe that what you have written is inaccurate. I will gladly withdraw these comments if you can provide such a reference to the talk page and an earlier version of the manual with the definition. Enchanter 10:25, 22 July 2007 (UTC)
To check whether we are any closer to consensus yet, does anyone still support retaining the current "plagiarism" example in its current form? If so, please explain, with evidence, whether it reflects the sources and original case accurately, and explain the logic of the example for the benefit of those who think it is ambiguous and unclear. Enchanter 23:20, 23 July 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Enchanter, this is my last post in this thread, as I think we are just going round in circles. The situation is very clear. It doesn't matter how accurate the CMOS reference is. It doesn't matter what the CMOS definition says about plagiarism, or what it doesn't say. You simply don't seem to get it. The only point that matters is that the editor used a source (CMOS) to try to advance a position, while the source did not refer to Smith and Jones at all. To connect CMOS to Smith and Jones, you need a source that does that for us, and there is no such source here. Nothing else matters. This is the essence of SYNT, and the fact that you still don't get it, shows that this example is excellent, as you are still hung up in the technicalities, not realizing the big picture - you cannot use the CMOS as a source for Smith and Jones, regardless of what it says or doesn't say, unless you have a source that connects CMOS to Smith and Jones. Thanks, Crum375 00:19, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
The above summary from Dreadstar is helpful. To add to this, and clarify how the current misquoting of the CMOS came about:
The net result is that Wikipedia has a definition on the policy page that Wikipedia says is sourced from the Chicago manual, but in fact comes from the Harvard manual. The source of this error is not the writers of the original case, but instead the writers of this policy page. To me, this is a straightforward error, which should be fixed, and I am surprised by the arguments saying that it doesn't matter. If we misrepresent a source, it makes Wikipedia look inaccurate. In this case, it is particularly ironic because we are misquoting a source which is specifically about maintaining high academic standards, and doing so on a policy page which is specifically about being true to sources. I don't accept that inaccurate quoting of sources doesn't matter because it is on a policy page rather than an article; being truthful and accurate is important all the time, not just when you are writing articles. I suspect that there is a tendency here to assume that if something has been on a policy page for a long time, it must be correct and accurate. I think this assumption should be challenged - there have been plenty of examples of inaccuracies persisting in policy pages for months without being spotted. Enchanter 17:30, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
In a previous discussion on the example, I felt that one of the problems was that the policy page didn't really create a usable description of what the issue of synthesis was trying to address. I think if the words are right then the issue of needing a good example fades away. It seems that an example does not seem to address the problem, because if it is obvious, then it fails the subtlety test that people seem to like, and if it is subtle, then it is not obvious what the point it is making is. Let's see if we can get a better wording to explain the issue. I don't personally like the A, B C aproach, it is too algebraic and offputting. I suggest something like this:
When considering edits, it is important to understand that it is not just the introduction of facts that need to be considered, but the analysis of those facts too. In Wikipedia, the process of creating new ideas out of facts is called synthesis. An unsourced analysis of facts is just as much original research as the presentation of information without sources. A simple example would be to present a school's test results over a number of years and based on these make a judgment on whether the school was improving. The provision of citations for the test results still does not allow us to make any significant assessment of the school's performance as we cannot verify that any unusual issues have been properly accounted for.
While creating articles is about gathering information and there is a low level of analysis that cannot be avoided in that process, it is assumed that there should never be any significant new analysis. The test for what is reasonable is "Does it advance a position?". If the analysis required to present an idea is more than simple summary then an objector would be entitled to request the citation of the analysis, especially if it creates a contentious viewpoint. This applies however well grounded in fact the analysis may be. If no justification is forthcoming, then the analysis should be removed to ensure that content is verifiable.
I'm not wedded to this wording at all, but thought that some clarity on the main page would be useful. Comments? Spenny 23:24, 25 July 2007 (UTC)
Let's say you conducted an interview with the creator of a TV show or whatever, and then decided to personally put the information you gathered into a Wikipedia article prior to the interview being printed or whatever. Let's also say that the interview was not faked, and that it actually took place. This, in effect, could be consitered original reasearch and, as such, would prevent (possibly) valueable information from being added to an article. How would you get around something like that? -- Wack'd Talk to me! • Admire my handiwork! 17:32, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Claims must be capable of being attributed to a reliable source. If someone challenges a claim it must be possible to provide a citation to a reliable published (accessable) source. WAS 4.250 18:43, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
Could do with some input over at Talk:Family First Party on the issue of presenting statistics/identifying patterns that are derived from sourced data but not explicitly stated at the cited source. -- Calair 06:32, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
Would it be OR to watch a TV show and write a plot summary about it? I would think so, because it is interpretation of a primary source. Corpx 03:22, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
What about the verifiability of the stuff mentioned from a TV show? Corpx 14:39, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
I noticed many of the articles on TV and cartoon characters contains a lot of "facts" on their personality derived from their actions in various episodes. (The Simpsons, Family Guy, Daria etc...) Is this OR? I don't think there is any official word on the characters' behaviour, but certainly fans shouldn't just speculate this and that?-- Kylohk 08:55, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
A lot of it looks to me like original research, but the people who make that judgement need to be the people who know the subject matter best, not people who know little about the subject. We get people deleting well known facts from bio articles and science articles who don't know the first thing about the subject and say they challenge the claim. Encyclopedia writing has to first be about actually knowing what you are writing about and not the mere blind application of rules. WAS 4.250 15:54, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
In the article The Microsoft Sound I tried to include the fact that the name and location of the start-up file on Windows 95 is C:\Windows\Media\The Microsoft Sound.wav. Another editor keeps deleting this because it is uncited. Here are the relevant extracts from the Talk page:
Is this the sillest citation request you have ever seen, or am I in the wrong here? Any guidance would be gratefully received. HairyWombat 20:58, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I would lke to see "Facts that are widely known and easily verifiable are an exception". An example used by Rich Farmbrough over on Talk:The Microsoft Sound is the fact that the Harry Potter series contains seven books, and is about a young wizard called Harry Potter. This would take care of the location of a particular file (which started this discussion). If you read between the lines of the guidelines, they almost say this already. All that is needed, I would suggest, is something more obvious to fight off the Wikilawyers. HairyWombat 20:16, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't know that the "Harry Potter series contains seven books" and even if true it is only true for a certain definition of "series" and only true as of some time frame. So we need at least "As of 2007 the Harry Potter series of books sold by [so and so] contains seven books" and a link to [so and so]. I know some people who believe that evolution is widely known and easily verifiable and others who believe the opposite. There is a story of three men on a train who see a cow and one says "Look cows here are black"; responds a second "No, that cow is black"; responds the third "No, this side of that cow is black." WAS 4.250 23:41, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Speaking of "pop culture", what are your opinions on Bigfoot in popular culture being OR? In the article's AfD, it is being argued that the article violates NOR. – Dreadstar † 18:03, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps it would be instructive to consider ways in which those with an agenda (that agenda involving propagation of an untruth) structuring what they say so that it doesn't violate any Wikipedia policy but in a way that any rebuttal can be removed for violation of a Wikipedia policy. As an example, in the debate over the privatization of Social Security it appears that great care has been taken to separate any exposition of the possible details of such a program (it should be very well noted that the details are of overriding importance) from close association with President Bush. That way he can make broad, general, unsubstantiated claims and the other supporters can provide what they claim to be details about the proposed program without creating any association between Bush and the claimed details. If, subsequently, it turns out that the program got established on the basis of people believing those claimed details apologists can correctly point out that Bush (and by extension, all who pushed to get the plan enacted) never committed to those details nor promised that the program would be as described by any others (even though those others were acting in concert with the administration.) (Taking a broader view, politicians in general employ such tactics: they weren't invented by Bush.)
The net effect for Wikipedia would be that Wikipedia was misused as a part of a propaganda campaign. Wikipedia restricts itself to what is said by others. Analyzing what might be meant or what motives there might be for making deceptive statements is forbidden unless that analysis was first published somewhere else. (The kicker is that those doing the analysis would almost certainly be opponents of the proposal and the proponents of the proposal would object to the inclusion of their non-neutral statements - even though those non-neutral statements were truthful and accurate.) In the past that analysis of hidden meaning or motives was known as "reading between the lines." Reading between the lines probably is an individual obligation but when something that purports to be a neutral encyclopedia publishes material that adds support to a political deception a false appearance of truth and honesty is bolstered and fosters a disinclination to "read between the lines." -- Minasbeede 17:01, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi to all. I am a newbie of wiki.en and i have made in these days some contribution to new articles. For many reasons many of them were deleted by other wikipedians because this or that.
Lastly, there is an edit-war around an article, regarding an old japaneise aircrafts that i, seen the datas available on others sources, had rated better than a similar type with the same engine. So i have been accused to have said not a simple NNPOV, but a OR. I have made an 'original research' becuase, seen speed, range and some others parameteres, i made a perfectly reasonable sintesys claiming that that aircraft was overall better than the other. So i made an OR. Even an aeronautical engeneer, or so auto-claimed, have stated that my analisis was rational, but, still, violated OR.
Someone above have said a precise sentence: there is probably no good wiki-article, that not violate such policy. And i agree, it's madness.
I knew in wiki, that there is the proibition of 'Original researches' meant as: you cannot post datas and stufies made by your self. Obviousely, this was then traslated by some 'integralist' in the fullowing assumption: you cannot think on your own. So this is not a manner to make an encyclopedia, not even happened in the whole history of mankind. But is happening here, in wiki, the most big box of culture for the future generations. And who don't agree with this is a 'traitor' of the wiki-spirit.
I want to remark that this policy is not only madness, but also unpratical, because the original means were too stretched on all the possible ways, making a cure worse than sickness.
So you have the point. I agree to have a well referenced articles, atleast on important things. I not agree on the handpoles of Citation needed also because one says: the sky is blue.
But as data elaboration, there is no way that this works. It's an absurd rules, born by a reasonable concern, but grew as a 'patriot act' thinked to interdict the mind activity of the contibutors, as 'PRESUME GOOD FAITH' is reversed in 'PRESUME BAD FAITH, so ask references in every statement, even the less important'. Someone above has given the example of the Public security privatized. Sure, this is an hot argument, that needs to pay attenction IF Wikipedia wants to make 'culture', to let the people know. If there is consensous, a statement should had been written about even without sources:If someone don't agree, then Wiki is always 2 thing characterized:
Because this policy negates the valour of mind elaboration made by millions of persons, that has willing to help to create this project.
If these are the terms of Wiki, if this is not an 'Encyclopedia' but a discharge of 'he/she said', so set up the overall failure of this project. Away from guarantee better informations, exculding logic, matematic and good sense, and above all, a dialectic between autors, so Wiki cannot simply cope with any of encyclopedias. It's not written by professionists, and if Plagued by such totally unlogic and destructive (See=TAliban) policies, that the informations findable here are of the same level of the 'good' food of Mc Donalds.To me, if i have clue of these policies on Wiki.en and the zelous application (even in ininfluent statements) made by some wikipedians, i simply didn't accepted to write a word in the NS0. Just as example.-- Stefanomencarelli 11:29, 5 August 2007 (UTC)PS_Please change Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: it's not free and not an encyclopedia (and no wikilove, also).
Very much. Thanks. PS. Did you know that B-2's cost (1993) is 5000 times higher than B-17s (in 1942)? It's a disturbing effect of the modern times tecnology.-- Stefanomencarelli 18:57, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I would like to state for the record my disgust with this policy of 'No original research', as it is comepletely ludicrous. All research at one point or another starts OFF being original research by some person or organization. To claim 'original research' is a bad thing is the height of hypocrisy. If nobody did any research to begin with, none of thise information would be available to disseminate on such a large scale. We would have no dictionaries, no encyclopedias, no atlases, no cenus counts.
Strictly speaking, if a person does not take the time to do research themselves, even if said research is simply the act of researching a SOURCE in order to make an addition to a page (which in itself is a form of original research because you have to FIND the source if it's not easily found), there is no research at all, and all pages have to have additions made based on new or rediscovered information by people who make these changes, often having to make a point of, you guessed it, doing original research to locate this information.
My opinion on the situation is this: This policy is hypocritical and must be done away with.
Almost forgot to sign this. Warwolf1 09:36, 6 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, no OR should be like: i cannot write that Shoa is never happened because i found new proofs (not sources). All the rest is more and more questionble as teh interpretation of this policy is strechted to the narrower levels. And with 2 millions editors, good luck!-- Stefanomencarelli 09:49, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
No original research is intended to be a bit broad, and well it should be. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a research journal. We should be reporting what the reliable secondary sources available to us say about the subject. This is a significant principle in Wikipedia. Subjects lacking reliable secondary sources are generally not considered notable and are subject to deletion. NPOV demands not that we formulate some theoretically neutral view, but rather that we present views in proportion to the available reliable sources and plainly report the claims & observations of others. We should not be drawing out our own conclusions or interpreting primary sources. There are plenty of wikis and Foundation projects where original research is not only welcome, but even encouraged. However, this is not one of them. Vassyana 10:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
If the observations are "so obvious" such as "Pluto is smaller than Jupiter", it's a fairly sure bet someone has already published the observation. Try textbooks and general audience books on the subject. Textbooks tend to make a lot of "obvious" observations (Pluto being smaller than Jupiter, or the Earth is round instead of flat, are both great examples). General audience books tend to make many "plain-to-see" observations, because they are trying to present the topic to a very broad audience with minimal to no professional knowledge. Such observations and facts are far easier to reference than is often presented. Vassyana 10:46, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
I think there is a consensus that when an article quotes or (noncontroversially) paraphrases what somebody said, a primary source is preferable to a secondary source. Am I correct? For example, if you say, "In 1782, Benjamin Franklin said _____", you would want to cite, if possible, to the primary source (i.e., the newspaper, diary, or public record where the quote originally occurs), rather than a 2005 article in the The New Republic that itself cites the primary source. This makes it much easier for the reader to verify that the quotation is accurate, and avoids a level of indirection. COGDEN 19:06, 26 July 2007 (UTC)
WP:COI considerations apply where the claims are related to religious dogma. WAS 4.250 00:11, 28 July 2007 (UTC)
I've revised the section on primary, secondary, and tertiary sources to remove the stated "rule" that primary sources should not be used except in rare situations. There is no consensus for this proposition, and this policy article can only include rules for which there is a consensus. If someone wants to establish a consensus for this, then we can re-insert it, but for now, it should not be there.
Primary sources are widely used across Wikipedia, and several editors on this talk page have agreed that primary sources are even preferable to secondary sources (not just acceptable) in at least some situations. Moreover, most of the reasons people have proposed for favoring either primary or secondary sources in particular situations have nothing to do with original research. I've revised this section to reflect this, and to focus the section back on the subject of original research. As revised, the section makes no judgment about what type of source is preferable, so long as it is not used to support original research. Indeed, there are original research pitfalls in citing any source, primary or otherwise. Other than removing the non-consensus preference for secondary sources, I don't think the revision makes any significant changes, other than in terms of clarity and style. COGDEN 19:23, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) I've reverted the edit. The preference for secondary sources is long established in Wikipedia policy. Trying to alter this principle affects other policies and guidelines on a significant level. (And I would even argue it would be a fundamental shift in the focus and standards of Wikipedia.) For example. WP:V#Sources reads in the opening sentence: "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy." (emphasis added) The preference for non-primary source is clearly stated. To address one specific aspect reverted: Reliable sources are "are authors or publications regarded as trustworthy or authoritative in relation to the subject at hand. Reliable publications are those with an established structure for fact-checking and editorial oversight." (emphasis added) This means that primary sources cannot be called "reliable sources" without contradicting the very guideline linked. In essence, the preference for secondary sources is simply a repetition of what is contained in the relevant policies and guidelines. Trying to make your sort of change will require a discussion about making significant changes to multiple policies and rules, or at the very least will have to be addressed at WT:V and WT:RS, as those are the principles that best cover this particular content rule. Vassyana 22:50, 9 August 2007 (UTC)
I for one find the current text encourages wiki-lawyering to (1) remove material referenced to multiple primary sources and (2) insert material referenced to dubious tertiary sources. People regularly cite these pages when supporting opposite sides, and reaching opposite conclusions, in such edit wars. Therefore, this requires (1) enough clean-up that people can agree on what this means and (2) enough consideration of different perspectives, different concerns, etc. so that the rewrite doesn't run roughshod over appropriate practices. I suggest that primary, secondary, and sometimes tertiary sources are all suitable for general reference, given other indicators of reliability.
This doesn't cover everything. One more thing: when various sources define movements, religions, etc., we shouldn't take these definitions too seriously, and should never take these definitions more seriously than how people consistently describe themselves. I'm bloody sick of the argument that Ben Tucker's ideas don't meet "the" "definition" of socialism. Jacob Haller 00:04, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
No source is itself (qua source) primary, secondary, or tertiary. It is the use of a source that makes it primary, secondary, or tertiary with regard to that use. Without even basic understanding of the terminology we are using; WP:IAR is the only hope. WAS 4.250 03:32, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Thanks, Vassyana. I see you reverted the proposed change again today. I agree that there's not a consensus. I feel that any change in policy that upgrades the status of primary sources is going to degrade the quality of the encyclopedia. Here's the sort of thing that worries me: suppose I have personal information about some matter, information that hasn't been published, but that I would like to cite in Wikipedia. If any primary source is valid, then why couldn't I simply write an affidavit, file it at a courthouse, upload it to a commons, and then cite it in the article? In my mind, the current policy helps guard against this sort of thing. TimidGuy 15:59, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Here in Italy we have a proverb: 'Made the law, decouvered the trick'. Is it so terrible, as overall rule, that the stuff published will be eventually challenghed with proper facts by millions other wikicontributors, to generate a concrete evolution and improvement of the articles? All the rules of the worlds will never assure the reliability and the truth over wikipedia datas. You cannot cite any source and do so a perfectly true claim. I can witness a politician contested by the crow (with even photos), and the day after a 'secondary source' as a newspaper will be 'available' to distort totally the facts happened, claiming the hot welcome he had. I can found a family dead under ruins, bombed by some fighter, and the day later see the claims on mass-media that they were 'all taliban warriors'. So go figure, the sources worths nothing if one support one or the other POV, there are all around even too examples to be made. If this screening of Wiki informations is impossible, then no reliable information could be guaranteed by wikipedia. Sorry.
More: a Personal Point ov View is not necessarly bad itself, seen that a judge, after all, express a sentence both 'personal' and 'neutral'. OTOH, there are the advocates or speakers of politicians that claiming things that they don't think but are directly the POV of they bosses. So a speaker, not sayng proper POV statements, 'should be' acceptable, and a judge not.
Perhaps i miss somethings, but let me repeat, the real needings for Wiki are: Be bold, Use goodsense, Ignore the rules and Search consensus plus the best: Search the truth. These should worths in Wiki, much more than 11112x10Small Textpolicies, often in contradiction one against the other, and good mainly to waste time and create a mass of burocrats. Let darwinsm do the work on the pages, and leave the 'creationism' party, that pretends to solve all with the 'table of law'. It dont' works as the free discussion (and as free discussion i mean talk with someone that don't treath handlyng the policies as hammers).-- Stefanomencarelli 12:35, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we should define different kinds of claims, and then what kinds of sources can support each claim. As extreme cases: Jacob Haller 19:39, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Expand and/or criticize:
Expand and/or criticize:
I see a contradiction and I need to seek objective clarification. Specifically, many articles exist on wikipedia that are based on reliable primary sources. Many of these are at first blush benign, such as New Hampshire communities by household income. In this case, the only source is a reliable primary source: an official New Hampshire state government website that allows the extraction of data from a database.
Apparently this database is based on U.S. census data.
Effectively, the New Hampshire database is a restatement of U.S. census data. It contains a variety of fields.
The problem with the article New Hampshire communities by household income is that the original contributor decided which fields to extract, and what article to create. Using the same database, another contributor might create:
While ranking New Hampshire communities by household income seems logical and benign, such an article turns wikipedia into a secondary source, and not the tertiary wikipedia is supposed to be.
In deciding which of such articles to write, the original contributor is making an evaluation of the various fields, and selecting one.
Additionally, such lists are not encyclopedic, and are often substitutes for categories. E.g., why have an article titled "" when there is a category Category:Academics of the University of Cambridge?
Ramifications: Of course, many such articles exist. Deleting such articles will likely leave a sour taste in many wikipedians’ mouths.
To address this, I see two options:
Looking forward to other's thoughts. (If changing this policy is out of the question, could you kindly direct where I should take this issue?) TableManners 06:02, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Stevertigo's recent addition is a bit too abstract (sorry!) for me to follow. Are there some examples of articles that were abstracted upward as he describes? Tom Harrison Talk 19:33, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
That addition was unnecessary and I am glad it was removed. This is a policy page, not a dissertation. Language has to be kept simple and to the point. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 16:56, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
"A newspaper article is a primary source if it reports events, but a secondary source if it analyses and comments on those events." Primary, Secondary & Tertiary Sources Anyone who wants to know the meaning of "Primary, Secondary & Tertiary Sources" should click that link and read. It is easiest to view sources as themselves primary or secondary but in fact at wikipedia it is important to realize that if we say "This source [so and so] said 'whatever'.[ref]" then we are using that source as a primary source for what it is saying. If a newspaper says the policeman said "Bob told me he killed Jay"; then we can use that report as a primary, secondary, or tertiary source depending on how we word it. If we say "Bob killed Jay"[ref] then we are using that newspaper report as a tertiary source. If we say "Newspaper [such and such] says the policeman said "Bob told me he killed Jay." then we are using that newspaper as a primary source. Which is better? Using it as a primary source. But some people here don't get that and insist that using primary sources is not as good as using secondary sources, when the key for wikipedia is not the source but how we use the source. WAS 4.250 14:09, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
Hi. I've made some edits to the Jelly bean article, about the candy. In this article we have a table of colors flavors, which is meant for the basic store-brand jellybeans which usually have only 8 or 9 flavors. I wanted to clean up one column where we list "black" as "anise/licorice".
The background is that almost all candies popularly spoken of as "licorice" are actually flavored with either anise oil or a synthetic equivalent. At least in the U.S., only certain gourmet brands are actually made with licorice root or extracts thereof, and they generally advertise this on their packaging. So black jellybeans, which are popularly referred to as "licorice" flavored, are often actually "anise" flavored.
My change was instead of having the unwieldly "anise/licorice" in the table, was to put "licorice" with a footnote that says "Many "licorice" candies are actually flavored with anise oil", with a quote, citation, and a link to a journal article explaining the subject. I felt that better explains the issue to the reader, and clears up a popular misconception.
Anyway, another editor keeps reverting it claiming "OR". I tried to meet him halfway by discussing what he meant by OR ( and also hoping to convince him that the fact itself was true before trotting out the rulebook ), but that didn't work out, and he moved the discussion off his talk page mid-conversation.
This is only a guess, but the point of contention seems to center around an implied inference. For example, if I made an inference to join "Licorice candies are really anise" with "Jellybeans are a candy" to get "Licorice jellybeans are really anise", that would be an example of SYNT.
However, that's not what I did, and I'd like to counter with the following points:
There is a current example of the problem which came up on the Administrator Incidents page discussed [ here]. Someone spotted that a BBC employee apparently seemed to be editing the pages related to criticism. There appears to be a sensible response [ here (there are a couple more corrections after)]. However, note that the argument is that they have checked the (primary) source which justifies the edit taking out the press bias of presumably deliberately misquoting the report. There are a few things here (does the remaining text in the article which notes that that the report was misrepresented in the press constitute OR - yes it appears to). It is also interesting as it brings in the question of reliable sources. We know that the Evening Standard does have vocal political campaigning, therefore for most purposes it is not a reliable source. On the other hand, we get into a problem as the article is discussing criticisms of the BBC and it is clear that these criticisms are being made. Wikipedia is being used to publish a political agenda, and potentially some interpretations of policy will encourage that, rather than resist it.
Discuss! 10:41, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
Let's see where we are here with a straw poll. The issue, summarized as neutrally as possible, is as follows:
From 2003 to late 2006,
Wikipedia:No original research indicated that editors could use
primary sources,
secondary sources, and
tertiary sources, so long as there was no original research. Around November [late summer] 2006, a statement was added to the policy indicating in bold that Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, published secondary sources, and that use of primary sources should be "rare". [There was some opposition to the change at the time, but for whatever reason, the change remained]. No explicit statement was added against tertiary sources, but their disfavoring is implied by the above bolded statement.
Please indicate your opinions regarding the following questions:
Should Wikipedia:No original research oppose the general use of primary sources?
(UTC)
Should Wikipedia:No original research oppose the general use of tertiary sources?
This is not a vote, but rather an invitation to discussion. I have endeavored to word the questions neutrally and generically, to invite broad comments about this aspect of policy. I believe these question cut to the core of what is being discussed and debated above, without leading a reader to draw conclusions about how the policy currently reads. Vassyana 23:05, 14 August 2007 (UTC)
Cogden, I reverted your removal of the sentence prioritizing secondary sources. This is a practice that has strong support. Can you say what your objection to it is? SlimVirgin (talk) (contribs) 21:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)