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Vision thing just wanted to add this from RS:
Some tertiary sources are more reliable than others, and within any given tertiary source, some articles may be more reliable than others. For example, articles signed by experts in Encyclopaedia Britannica and encyclopedias of similar quality can be regarded as reliable secondary sources instead of tertiary ones. Unsigned articles may be less reliable, but they may be used so long as the encyclopedia is a high quality one.
Any thoughts? SlimVirgin (talk) 20:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure I trust Britannica any more than I trust wikipedia. They're both encyclopedias, right? -- Kim Bruning 14:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I think this is important to add for the reasons stated above. If no objections, I'm going to add it tonight and see if it sticks. - Merzbow 20:58, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
The problem with the Wikipedia policy is that there is no critique included with it. The policy is badly flawed, but stating the reasons here is a complete waste of time as these words will soon be archived and forgotten, included with all the rest of the drivel written here.
Any policy to have any validity must include its critique or it is just mindless nonsense. Once the critique of the policy is sharpened the policy itself will finally begin to approach validity.
Original research is a red herring. Some of the problems with Wikipedia are:
1.) Quality work being degraded with later edits.
2.) Controversial subjects Being treated very poorly because of the OR policy.
3.) Quality work being erased due to the OR policy.
...etc...
But this article is complete nonsense without discussion. And this means discussion in the article itself so its critique can be refined. The discussion on the discussion page is basically worthless in this article because important ideas just get lost. For example there was a very important thread regarding verifed falehoods. This thread was relegated to the archives, but it really belongs in the main article. 01001 05:04, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Let's see
"Quality work being degraded with later edits." - That's the risk with an open model, regardless of WP:OR policy
"Controversial subjects Being treated very poorly because of the OR policy." - If there is no work out there that an editor can cite, then the topic can't be that controversial. Controversial topics are among the easiest to avoid WP:OR with as there is plenty of argument from both sides.
"Quality work being erased due to the OR policy." - If it's the quality work of an editor, not a third party, then that is precisely what WP:OR is supposed to do.
perfectblue 07:53, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
01001 I think your basic premise is flawed. If there is something you feel is badly stated in the policy, it can be changed. Policies are not set in stone, you just need consensus to make a change. It's possible. Wjhonson 03:29, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Continuing to talk at a meta-level 01001 isn't helpful. If you had a section with that title, please specify some exact language you'd like to see *in* it. It's pointless to simply ask for a title without any language. Wjhonson 07:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Can we put original research into a sister project and link to it like we do Wikiquote? - Peregrine Fisher 04:12, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
-- Kylohk 15:14, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
My view on the question of original research is that if a person can not be trusted to form sound conclusions then he/she should not be working on an article. The result of this policy is articles that read, at best, like high school group term papers; and which read, at worst, like bad high school book reports. It amounts to mediocrity by design.
Kwork 20:07, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
There are several things wrong with the Original Research policy, but the thing that really drives me nuts is how it's affected talk pages. If you dare to say anything other than simple declarative sentences, someone will *always* jump in with a WP:OR. It's gone past annoyance, I think, and has become a real communication hindrance. Instead of actually replying your posts, people just accuse you of original research and ignore you. Hell, I just had someone hit me with a terse "WP:OR" accusation/reply after I replied to a mediation page regarding a contested redirection! Even if we needed citations for page redirection decisions (and in the name of everything that's holy, I sincerely hope we don't), does every single sentence I post to a talk page need to be sourced? Can we please just talk, discuss and debate the issue rationally and worry about the citation only when people start talking about making specific changes?
I would like to see a note somewhere in the No Original Research policy that says people aren't required to be borg drones on the talk pages ("That doesn't quite make sense to me." ... "Sorry! That's original research! You lose!"), and that WP:OR tags should only be brought out when someone is referring to a specific change in the article itself. It's becoming downright anti-intellectual, because you can't question ANY argument anymore using your own logic. I'm not saying that I should be able to insert my own logic into the article, I'm saying that my own logic does have a place in discussing the article.
Regardless of the sources involved/needed, the article should not say stupid, or factually incorrect, or logically inconsistent things and I shouldn't be forced to slog through Google for an hour to be able to point out that such things are, in fact, stupid/incorrect/inconsistent. If you have that kind of time and patience, good for you, but I don't think my input should be impeached simply because I didn't regurgitate someone else's rhetoric (and again, this is just the TALK PAGE, not the article itself.)
I shouldn't need a source to refute someone else's unsourced argument on a talk page. I shouldn't need a source to suggest that we remove an *unsourced* claim (in the article) that appears, via my own "synthesis", to be incorrect. I shouldn't need a source to suggest that we reword something. I shouldn't need a source to debate an article redirection.
I already know what wikipedia *is* and what it *isn't*, thank you very much, and I'm tired of getting beat over the head by rule lawyers who are NOT contributing anything useful to the discussion. -- Lode Runner 06:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
BTW, while I'm at it, I may as well save space and point out that everything I just said about making new policy in the appropriate TALK pages of policy articles, cannot possibly be subject to WP:NPOV, either. A new proposed policy has to be SOMEBODY'S opinion, does it not? By definition. Jimbo doesn't make all new policy, and if nobody else is to do so, that pretty much ends wikipedia's growth. How then will we decide how many links are too many, and other weighty issues, in the manual of style? This is not an academic matter, as I actually just had somebody accuse one of my proposals in the manual of style as being to much "opinion". Yeah, well, so what of it? It's ALL opinion there! Some of it older than others, is all.
And finally, of course every time a matter is opened for debate in Wikipedia, from ArbCom to RfD, it's people's opinions (points of view) that are being solicited. NPOV does not, cannot, apply there. The guts and making of Wikipedia are full of OR and POV. It's the mainspace articles where we try to minimize it. Some people have not "gotten" this, and it needs to be made more clear in the LEAD of both of these policy pages. And WP:ATT as well. All these are, or should be, and in some cases MUST be, mainspace policies ONLY. That's my OPINION, and I'm stickin to it! S B H arris 23:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
My previous post (above) was more of a rant, but since people seem to have responded favorably to it, I would like to propose that we add a new section to the WP:NOR policy.
<begin>
Original research should not be included in new articles or additions to existing Wikpedia articles. However:
These exceptions exist to facilitate intelligent debate, not shoehorn your own personal opinion into an article. Original research does not imply bias--editors are still expected to present a neutral point of view. </end>
Given the growing number of sniveling rule-lawyers who use WPs (and especially this WP:) to shout down opposition, I really think that this all needs to be spelled out. Not every post on a talk page is advocating an addition to the article, and I don't see how WP:NOR can be sanely applied to changes other than addition. The concept of "original research" applies to verifiable facts, not to word choice and page redirects. Don't get me wrong, this doesn't give anyone the right to start pulling stuff out of their ass--changes still need to be justified, but original research (especially synthesis) can and should be a part of that justification.
If I can get this section added, I'll push for similar additions to other WPs. Many of the WPs are applicable only to proposed article changes, but that isn't stopping some people from using them to shout down and drown out anyone who dares try to analyze an issue with their own rational mind, even if they aren't proposing a specific change just yet. -- Lode Runner 01:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I also have to second your idea that NOR and NPOV are impossible to follow with absolute strictness, even in the mainspace, because if you did no sythesis at all, but merely pasted blocks of print from other sources one after the other, the quality of writing would suck. And you'd still violate NPOV in deciding what material to use and how much emphasis to give it. So in the end, in the spirit of WP:IAR I think what is meant by no original synthesis or research or overriding POV, is that you shouldn't have enough of these to draw attention to themselves. The reader should never say: "Woah, THAT'S loaded language!" or "Woah, THAT'S an agenda!" So long as you avoid that, you're usually okay. That's (after all) how most of the best articles in Wikipedia have been written. Thay all do some synthesis, and some POV-pushing (i.e., some kind of reasonable POV synthesis, rather than sythnesis of the many nutty ones). S B H arris 01:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
[de-indent]Fine, let's say I violated a guideline which does not appear anywhere on the WP:NOR or its talk page. It took Jake 2 seconds to fix it. This does not make me a bad person or invalidate my arguments. The fact remains that this was only a clarification. I did not contradict anything in WP:NOR (with the arguable exception of the IAR comment, but that applied only to cases where it was *unclear* as to whether something should be treated as original research.) -- Lode Runner 01:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Disagreed. Novel theories themselves shouldn't be included in the article, but in (for example) our recent FGC-related debates, I used original research (and arguably novel theories insomuch as they aren't drawn from any particular source) to justify rephrasing a line that was not specifically supported by the sources given. Intelligent reasoning MUST be preserved--it is only the inclusion of suspect information that must be fought. -- Lode Runner 00:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
WP:NOT#OR"Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought" "Wikipedia is supposed to compile human knowledge. It is not a vehicle to make personal opinions become part of human knowledge. In the unusual situation where the opinions of a single individual are important enough to discuss, it is preferable to let other people write about them."
WP:TALK"A talk page is research for the article, and the policies that apply to articles also apply to talk pages. Research and debate should meet the same standards of verification, neutral point of view and no original research."
As you can see, that rule follows directly in the spirit of What Wikipedia is Not. Thus, if you negate that rule, you are negating what Wikipedia is. Wikipedia is not here for you to change it or use original research. There are plenty of other places for that. That rule will never change now matter how many people come in here to protest about it. If talk pages are filled with OR and thats allowed, thats the fault of not enforcing the rule and an admin should be made aware of it and/or bring it to the attention of mediation. Just like people already stabbing each other is not a valid excuse to get rid of anti-stabbing laws, people abusing talk pages is not an excuse to get rid of No Original Research rules. You should know about it before getting into Wikipedia. If you do not like it, why did you bother coming here? SanchiTachi 23:10, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
a personal request for education, or is it an ironic use of rhetorical question in the service of a POV? In either case it's somewhat original. Which is hilariously ironic because you're arguing for NOR. If you find it impossible not to violate the cannons of NOR and NPOV even in your own single one-paragraph defense of them, you've got a real problem. Consider it. And that's my original opinion regarding your comment. S B H arris 23:37, 6 May 2007 (UTC)Just like people already stabbing each other is not a valid excuse to get rid of anti-stabbing laws, people abusing talk pages is not an excuse to get rid of No Original Research rules. You should know about it before getting into Wikipedia. If you do not like it, why did you bother coming here? SanchiTachi 23:10, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
I want to stress this line again: A justification for including a sourced statement in the article is not the same as the statement itself. Read that repeatedly until it sinks in. The justification should be sound, but it should not be held to the same standards as the article addition itself. If someone argues that we include a statement as sourced from the Weekly World News, and we say "No, they're not reputable", are we violating wikipedia policy? Do we actually have to sit and track down sources that say WWN isn't reliable? Haven't checked myself, but it might be hard to find such a source because it's so freaking OBVIOUS that the WWN is utter fantasy. The justification for NOT including the proposed addition, then, is based on our "original research" of knowing that it's pretty unlikely that a source which says a 1,000' tall chicken attacked Paris yesterday can be trusted. -- Lode Runner 00:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Guidelines are just that. The offending statement directly contradicts what we've already established on the policy pages. That the policies are *not* applicable to Talk pages. On that note, I've started a new discussion on the Talk page *guideline* that will hopefully remove the claim that the policies do apply to Talk. Guidelines cannot contradict policy and the fact that this statement is there on the Talk guideline page, doesn't prevent someone from reading the policies and seeing the contradiction. Wjhonson 01:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Jayjg is exactly correct. I suggest people see the
Warhammer Wiki Page Discussion to see where Pak and Localzuk wanted to not have to apply the OR rule to the Talk page in order to invalidate actual research used to define how the game defines a term and instead substitute their own definition for said term. Localzuk only wants to redefine the rule so he can win an argument, which means that he is not here for Wikipedia, but only to "win."
SanchiTachi 01:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Look, SanchiTachi, here is your argument: "You editted the article itself [though I waited three days]! This automatically renders your proposal null and void, even if you weren't aware of any contradiction at the time, even if you weren't aware that the talk page was not the place to bring it up, even if you say you'll never do it again! Too, late, you fucked up, game over, your proposal is dismissed [because he is apparently the arbiter of wikipedia "credibility"] feel free to leave Wikipedia now." Now, if that just about sums it up, I'll point out that it violates WP:BITE and WP:DICK (normally I wouldn't do this, but it seems as though WP links are the only form of discourse you view as valid) and I'll let everyone else come to their own conclusions.
Feel free to spam my userpage with this nonsense--go right ahead, really, I don't mind. However, it is completely offtopic personal attack and does not belong here. -- Lode Runner 02:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Sanchi your attacks are out-of-line. You offend everyone by attempting to beat someone else into accepting your interpretation, instead of convincing them in a rational manner. The rules are not here to pummel and coerce but to instruct. Your approach is not conducive. Wjhonson 03:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I do not see the need add so much verbiage to this policy. Policy pages need to be kept simple and to the point. And the way the discussion is being conducted is not encouraging either. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I also think that the dispute is framed incorrectly. The discussion should not be framed around "do we allow OR in talk pages?", as that presuposes that talk pages are what they are not. Talk pages are there 'to discuss the article and not the subject, and to engage other editors in improving the article so that it is better sourced, better worded, and more compliant with the aims of the project. A talk page is not a discussion forum, a place to share our brilliant ideas and opinions on the subject of the article, or to do any other activities unrelated to furthering the aims of Wikipedia. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
So is it possible to post an RFC without subject (since there is no "Wikipedia policy" subject, only science, politics, religion, etc.) ? Or is there a better place to put this? I don't mind a venue change, in fact I would prefer it so that we can get away from this off-topic stuff, but I could use a little help figuring it out. -- Lode Runner 04:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
New debate here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#Original_research_in_talk_pages. Personal attacks (this includes alleged rules violations that are already over, fixed, appologized for and done with) will not be tolerated. -- Lode Runner 05:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree that this addition is absolutely faulty. How can you have a talk page without OR??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The important issue is not whether original research lands in the article. The important issue is whether the reader can determine that which is original research and that which isnt. The problem being that once original research is excluded, logic prevents the article from being written. This is because the very first sentence of any article whatsoever must advance a position, and so forth for each sentence thereafter, and for each word of each sentence and so on. This logic must be addressed in this article or the article lacks any logical validity.
I was writing to the article on stature which has oscillated between a strong negative bias against short stature and a milder negative bias against short stature. I had written a section to the article that arguably is OR, but it certainly balanced the article. After, having this section tagged and deleted for being OR it occured to me that NOR is a very dangerous policy.
This is because people read Wikipedia and Wikipedia should not have a negative bias towards short stature. And certainly, in this article the truth is more important than NOR. The argument for the advantages of short stature should be stated in this article, or all bias should be removed. The present policy is dangerous as it serves to reinforce stereotypes.
Further, for some time now there has been reference to height and intelligence suggesting that taller people are smarter. This is backed up by some kind of verified source.
It might be alright to have this illogical OR policy if noone read Wikipedia, but millions do read it. Wikipedia should not maintain this illogical policy that leads to false and unbalanced articles. 01001 00:36, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
I assert that a little OR is sometimes good, and is in the spirit of WP:Ignore all rules. Example: the page on Chess used to assert that 285 million people play chess on the Internet, and the claim was sourced [1]. I wrote on the Talk page:
Some more numbers: Internet Chess Club has 30000 members, about 2500 online at any one time. FICS has a membership of 150000. Playchess.com (part of Chessbase) claims to be the largest, with 5000 members online at any one time, so maybe they've slightly over the 150000 at FICS, if they are it's not by much. The other sites appear to be smaller. I think the total number of online players would struggle to reach 1 million. Yes I know this is WP:Original Research, but the 285 million number is so obviously wrong that sometimes you have to WP:Ignore all rules.
Thankfully common sense prevailed, and my OR overrode the reference. The moral: a little OR is sometimes better than a poor reference. Peter Ballard 01:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Everytime you edit you are told "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable". WP:NOR is one of the 5 pillars of wikipedia. It is a hardline policy. WP:IAR is not policy, it is a guideline, a very controversial one at that, and never intended to bypass consensus. Lode Runner, your crusade against the "rules lawyers" is borderline disruptive, especially given your non-consensus edits to WP:NOR to reflect that. This is not in the best interest of the project, and it's not what Jimbo would want, bottom line. If you want to add OR and synthesis, establish your credentials at Citizendium, or take it to an internet forum. Encyclopedias are for SOURCED information, not original research: not in brittanica, not here. Wikipedia is not primary source, and without verification of credentials, it's not a place for publication of new material. Since we don't know who the editors are, it's no different than a bunch of guys meeting at a pub, or a conspiracy theorist in a 'zine or webforum. Once again, WP:NOR prevents all of that. That is why it is one of the fundamental, inviolate pillars of the project. Can you see that the entire concept of wikipedia having ANY credibility hinges upon it? Your crusade against the "rules lawyers" is misguided: you're really crusading against the concept of wikipedia itself, and it's disruptive and dangerous. The blanket accusations such as "the accusers", "rules lawyers", allegations of WP:BITE, etc are disruptive and the resultant unilateral changes to, again, a fundamental policy, border on WP:POINT. You need to chill out and look at this objectively: On the SOLE basis of WP:ILIKEIT and WP:IAR (neither of which are policy), you want to change at least FOUR policies: WP:NOR, WP:V, WP:TALK, WP:RS and a fifth if you include WP:ATT. Does that make ANY sense to you whatsoever? Because to the rest of us, it is ridiculous.
I can sum it up in one sentence: You can't use a single controversial guideline that is not accepted by many people on this project, to overrule no less than FIVE fundamental policies that constitute the very essence of what makes Wikipedia what it is.
I can sum up the remedy in one sentence: Start your own wiki, or go to Citizendium, or publish a blog; all of which places where original research is welcomed -- not here. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 07:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
And, taking the direct wording of the IAR page, it says if the rules PREVENT you from improving the encyclopedia, ignore them. OR does not IMPROVE the encyclopedia, and not allowing OR does not PREVENT you from improving it. All that OR does, is lowers the quality of the encyclopedia into that of a webforum, blog, or chatroom, and that's clearly unacceptable. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 09:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
[Outdent] Indeed, what guarantees an admin is any kind of "expert"? And what would it matter in this discussion, if they were? Do you think individual expertise per se carries weight on wikipedia? Wrong. Or that an admin's opinions carry more weight than anybody else's, here? Wrong. Please note that WP:ATT generally allows experts to use their own expertise only by quoting from their own works if they have been published in OTHER journals. Admins giving pop-off ex cathedra opinions here for the first time, certainly would violate WP:ATT if it applied universally. Here's an explicit violation from the NOR section of WP:ATT: "Original research" is anything that
introduces an analysis, synthesis, explanation or interpretation of published facts, opinions, or arguments that advances a point that cannot be attributed to a reliable source who has published the material in relation to the topic of the article.
Which is what we have here, since admins are not reliable sources who have published this stuff outside Wikipedia. You think they are? S B H arris 19:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Why are we talking about admins? What does that have anything to do with OR or not? Admin functions have nothing to do with editing, which is what OR/NOR is involving. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 21:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
A discussion is going on here about whether it would be justifiable for a non-specialist Wikipedian to create an 'artist's impression' of an object that is so far invisible (the object in question is the distant planet Gliese 581 c), or whether the only acceptable 'impression' would be something produced by a noted scientist, or at least produced under the aegis of a scientific organization, such as NASA. Some users believe that the policy on images means that the non-specialist Wikipedian is welcome to go ahead. Others (including moi) think this would open the floodgates to rubbishy images with no scientific backup. Does anyone here hae any views on this? Cop 633 01:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
The secondary source paragraph has a sentence that reads "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, verifiable, published secondary sources." The presence of the word "verifiable," as an adjective modfying "sources," is confusing and I believe in error. This is going to get semantic, but: WP:V applies to the content of WP articles, not to the sources for that content. The WP article has to be reliably sourced, of course, but that is enough; we don't have to in turn be able to verify the source (to do so for a newspaper article, for example, I think we would need access to the reporter's notes, or the article editing process). I propose removing that one word. Comments? UnitedStatesian 05:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I think there would be a wiki to publish original research and ideas. I imagine the wiki was once upon a time... ;) an original idea. If it would be refussed, I (and you ) couldn´t be reading and/or writting these lines-- 62.87.96.65 13:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
If I understand this proposed text correctly it says that editors may compile lists that don't appear as such in any source. I would suggest that this isn't even synthesis, and that it is allowable so long as it is properly labelled and chosen. In other words it isn't an exemption, it's an already allowed use under OR. This edit would just clarify that fact. I have seen instances in the past where editors have compiled facts to cause readers draw unusual conclusions, and that is inherently OR. But it doesn't much matter whether those facts are arranged in a list or in prose. With this proposal, if I read it orrectly, it would be permissiable to compile a "Major policy positions" section, but it would not require us to permit a POV compilation like "Evidence of guilt" if there weren't already a source for it. So again, I don't see any actual change from current policy in that aspect either, just another clarification. Is there any way in which this would alter existing practice? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
You combine facts from seperate materials in order to create a single unified article. That's synthesis, per a basic dictionary definition - yet every single featured article does it. This is the problem. WilyD 17:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)syn·the·sis: the combining of the constituent elements of separate material or abstract entities into a single or unified entity
WP:NPOV states that facts should be allowed to speak for themselves, which to me means that any qualification or explanation of them by an editor not citing a source is original research because the qualification/explanation didn't appear in the source. This is an illustration of why I think it is original research to add perspective not in the source.
(X = criminals)
|
(Y = people referred to as)(Z = people referred to as criminals)
|
I'd suggest finding a source to assert Y, but that might be WP:SYN.
Situation | Says | 2nd valid source says | Wikipedia says | Final | WP:OR? |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
3. A WP:V, WP:RS source | X | Y | X + Y | Z | Probably |
Anynobody 06:50, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) could you explain what you don't understand so I could try to clarify. "Uh?" doesn't really explain much. Anynobody 01:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Where did Jimmy Wales say a "novel narrative or historical interpretation"? I want to put {{fact}} after that... Bkkbrad 09:20, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Hey fellow editors: please help me edit this new essay: Wikipedia:It's ok to use your brain. I think it applies to more than this policy. MPS 03:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, here's an example of "using my brain" and that example is the reason I'm even reading this page. In the article Curveball (informant) I inserted a section that stated that Curveball's statements demonstrated internal inconsistency and that the internal inconsistency indicated he was a poseur. Curveball claimed to be a chemical engineer yet nothing that appeared to be derived from the intelligence provided by Curveball, as seen in the CIA/DIA white paper, showed any sign of having been written by anyone with engineering training.
So my thought process was: IF Curveball provided information that was not like the information you would reasonably expect an engineer (in particular a chemical engineer) to present when describing a piece of equipment for which he claimed he had been trained to operate THEN Curveball was lying about being a chemical engineer, and was thus visibly a liar.
That section stood for many months and then it was removed anonymously. I restored it and was then told that whether or not it was accurate was beside the point, it was "original research." I then deleted it myself, following a strict interpretation of NOR.
But this is very disturbing. Other than in tightly-controlled countries (e.g., USSR) I don't know of any encyclopedias that forbade thought or the products of thought.
More properly I could have enumerated the items attributed to Curveball in the CIA/DIA white paper that lacked any glimmer of engineering intelligence and then could have documented what is is that chemical engineers concern themselves with. Even then it appears that a strict reading of "no original research" forbids my conclusion. If nobody has published the conclusion then, it seems, Wikipedia forbids its appearance, no matter how simple the logic.
This is weird in a way because the white paper (and the discussion of that piece of intelligence reporting and all Iraq-war intelligence reporting) appear to follow, even though they are not a part of Wikipedia, the NOR rule. In fact the reason I put in the "internal inconsistency" section in the first place was as a protest against that idiotic approach. It's absurd for the CIA to limit it's conclusions to Wikipedia-style reporting of what CIA sources supply. Their job is expressly to synthesize from the raw intelligence, is it not? Yet all the discussions I've seen center on whether or not the intelligence agencies had been told Curveball was unreliable (or on whether or not that very clear message had gotten through.) What he said wasn't what an engineer would say. Is it conceivable that the CIA neither employs nor consults chemical engineers on chemical engineering issues? Wouldn't any chemical engineer instantly conclude "this guy sure must have gone to a bad engineering school: he doesn't know what engineering is about"? (It is lunacy if they do not employ or consult suitable professionals.)
In the discussion page for Curveball (informant) a describe a report by a mythical self-proclaimed automotive engineer in which the person demonstrates he doesn't recognize an engine block and spark plugs. Whether or not it's allowed to reach the conclusion "he's a liar" in Wikipedia wouldn't the CIA have to reach that conclusion, if he were making such a report to them?
A simpler example is in the greenhouse gas discussion. I state there that a 1 degree Celsius change in the average temperature of the earth is less than a 0.4% change. But to do so I had to perform the division 1/(273 + 15) That computation seems, by the NOR policy, to be forbidden. Yet I would like to contend that the deniers are foolish in claiming that it is not possible for the observed change in the concentration of atmospheric CO2 to cause a change in average temperature of less than 0.4%. It's important and significant to show the relative magnitude of the change and every piece of that calculation can be tied to data. Can I make the calculation in Wikipedia or can I not? Are there not many items of general education that are (or should be) always available for use in any analysis, discussion, or presentation? Minasbeede 04:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I did remove the section myself.
But how about the George Washington autograph that's written in ball point ink (a sort of classic example of self-contradictory information)? It appears that in Wikipedia one must stand mute, even though one knows George Washington was long dead before ball point pens were invented, unless one can find a published statement that a written item that purports to be from some time before ball point pens were invented is a forgery or fake if it is in fact written in ball point ink. Is it actually necessary to be able to cite a prior identification of the self-contradictory nature of a statement to mention that self-contradiction in an article? That something is self-disproviItalic textng isn't enough in itself, it has to have been published, too?
Of course my frustration isn't really with Wikipedia, it is with that whole world in which nobody has published that Curveball's lay language and approach mark him as a non-engineer. As he claims to be an engineer and he reveals himself not to be one he is clearly a liar. Whether or not word got to the analysts at the CIA they had the proof he was a liar in the raw intelligence from Curveball they received. After the fact we know that to be true (I can say that in Wikipedia.) I think Wikipedia is hobbled by too tight application of the "no original research" standard but my actual frustration is the apparent prevalence of that same standard in he real world. Logic is forbidden, all that the press and media can do is report what people say. That's wrong. It's also not the nature of the Encyclopedia Britannica over the years. But is worth noting that Wikipedia is hobbled by over-intense enforcement of NOR, with "hobbled" implying harm to it.
I do recognize that this is related, in a way, to the standard for a patent. A patent is valid if what it discloses is not obvious to someone skilled in the art prior to seeing the patent. I lose here. Obviously the dearth of published statements that Curveball's non-engineering language show him to not be an engineer demonstrates that those "skilled in the art" have not, on their own, comprehended this fact. That's why I removed the section.
Does a particular form of syllogism have to be referenced if it is used in a Wikipedia article or does the syllogism have status above the rules and principles of Wikipedia as part of the set of valid human reasoning skills?
Minasbeede 04:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Thanks. It is still true that forbidding logical conclusions is absurd. To me the danger inherent in original research is that (for the simplest syllogism) the major or minor premise could be concocted. That's where sourcing is necessary: for the premises.
Modern sophists create untrue premises (or engage in flawed logic, such as equating A implies B with B implies A.) It's easy to find sources for such sophistry, but it's invalid.
Minasbeede 14:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
User:SanchiTachi is also trying to introduce his original research and synthesis into the Shane Ruttle Martinez article (see Talk:Shane Ruttle Martinez). If there's an ongoing problem with this user and OR violations then some action should be taken against him. Black as pitch 18:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Could there be an exception to the OR policy for purely mathematical proofs, that can *not* be refuted in any way? (Assuming of course the proof is sufficiently readable). Herve661 06:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I have to explain better what I mean. I am doing mathematics. There are many (eg geometrical) properties that can be demonstrated in an elegant way that I can think up. Many people may have already thought about it but didn't care to publish, and I won't get the Nobel prize for this. I would not have any chance to get it published either because it is kind of trivia things. Now, these proofs need not be complex at all and may be verified by almost any people (like they would verify the wordings in an article about litterature, spelling etc.) who is writing the article. Can that be put on a wikipedia article? Herve661 01:40, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
That seems to throw the baby out with the bathwater. To prevent misuse or error a huge category of discourse is forbidden.
I'd certainly be comfortable with any but the most trivial or transparent mathematical proofs being excluded. Note too that the request was for 2-3 line proofs to be allowed, not for a blanket acceptance of all mathematical proofs. At that level the proofs are a means of making an exposition clearer or more communicative. That would seem to be a goal of Wikipedia, whether or not it is explicitly expressed anywhere. If "clearer or more communicative" refutes the position advanced by some that doesn't make it wrong, does it? If the refutation is on solid ground, is impeccable, it would seem it does exactly what ought to be done, if truth is the goal.
The patent office, I think, has a list of categories of invention it will not ever consider, perpetual motion machines being an example. I see no problem with Wikipedia refusing to accept anything that claims to disprove accepted science nor even with refusing to accept anything that claims to disprove controversial science. That belongs elsewhere. Properly it should appear, if it has any merit, in a refereed scientific journal. If not let it appear on kook web sites where it fits.
It is almost certain that even then judgment will be required and disagreement might arise. Well, thats life. If you relegate Wikipedia to some imaginary world where everything fits nicely then you very clearly have made Wikipedia a vehicle for fantasy - the exact opposite, it would seem, of what was originally intended.
Minasbeede 20:04, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
If I say something. Then a news story reports it, how should I behave on the talk page of the article? Mathiastck 00:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
So let me get this straight...
In order to mention personal or special knowledge, one has to cite a source, even if the only source in the world is themselves. But in order for someone to cite their own source, it must be published in a "reliable publication", be it a book, journal, magazine, periodical, newspaper or even a popular website. Yet, none of these have been proven to be 100% reliable credible publications, just that the author had enough money or media interest at the time to have their voice heard.
To what extent is it really necessary to cite a source, then, I ask, especially if the information is a first-hand account. Would you scrub an article because it contained information provided by the sole surviving witness of a plane crash? What if George Bush himself came to write about his foreign policies? Is this any different from someone writing about their junior high school's band camp experience?
I can appreciate that Wikipedia strives to present the most factual and neutral information possible, but it seems rather insulting to suggest that Wikipedia Authors are just not qualified to make original factual statements by themselves. That's reserved for someone with a PhD, or a weekly column in the Tribune. -- Agvulpine 06:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Part of the problem I see is that many things are at the "duh" level. It appears Wikipedia forbids applying simple logic to any set of facts.
As far as firsthand knowledge goes, I know from personal experience that the reaction used on the trailers in Iraq (claimed in a CIA/DIA white paper to be for the culture of biological WMD) to make hydrogen generates a lot of heat. As a scientist I know that the heat generated is not unique to my experience and has to be documented. When I read that the trailers have a cooling unit I know from personal experience that the cooling unit is an appropriate component on a hydrogen generation system so I likewise know that spinning the presence of that cooling unit to be evidence of use of the trailers for biological WMD culture is bogus. It flies in the face of fact. that the reaction used to generate hydrogen generates heat should be common knowledge among scientists with expertise in the field. This matters. If the CIA/DIA white paper was written in ignorance of the reaction used to generate hydrogen then that in itself is a strong condemnation of that white paper and of its authors. If the authors knew of the heat from the reaction their failure to disclose that fact proves their bias toward deceit. Nowhere in that is my personal knowledge critical: the reaction has been known for at least a century and anyone who performs the reaction will know of the heat. The real essence of my "personal knowledge" of the heat generated is that anyone doing the reaction should be aware of the heat. I"m merely a stand-in for "anyone" in this regard.
Minasbeede 14:00, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
When it comes to requiring a citation for the statement that the reaction to generate hydrogen generates heat I say "right on." It's possible, do it and be done with it.
When it comes to simple logic and reasoning I think you're wrong: they are universal. There is misuse of logic and there is illogic but neither of these are properly described as different editors concluding different things (from the same evidence), assuming the different editors are honest. (It's also probably correct to state that all or nearly all methods of misusing logic have been characterized.) "Misuse of logic" includes reliance on false premises. Once the false premise is allowed then logic can lead to improper conclusions. I'd think the Wikipedia guns should be trained on false premises, not on logic.
Requiring sourcing doesn't solve the real problem: you have to rely on "reliable" sources, and reliability is the heart of the problem. Some cite al Qaeda as though it is a reliable source (when it suits the agenda of the one making the citation - if not in Wikipedia, other places.) Al Qaeda has its own agenda. Is it a reliable source, 100% accurate in what it says? I am extremely dubious.
There is a plethora of "think tanks" with agendas. Relying on them for accurate statements about the matters that are the subject matter of their agendas seems at least as unreliable as allowing actual "original research." You can rely on what think tanks say as indicating what they say. I doubt you can rely on what they say as reliably indicating what they think and am even more doubtful that you can rely on what they say to meet reasonable standards of truth.
Dealing with disputed material becomes a battle over the reliability of sources. While it seems to be cut-and-dried to insist on the Wikipedia rules isn't the real effect one of turning discussions that should be about truth into arguments about the applicability of the rules and about whether cited sources are or are not reliable? It seems to me that what you have left when you exclude everything that Wikipedia would have be excluded isn't an encyclopedia, it's a compendium of lukewarm statements about "safe" ideas. I'm not saying that Wikipedia cannot be precisely that (it can, if that's the desire or those in control), I'm more asking if that is the real goal. There's also the implied question of whether I am seeing things properly.
Minasbeede 23:21, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
In several discussions I encountered two conflicting views on WP:OR/ WP:SYNTH. People repeatedly and on several articles cite:
However, there are cases in which rigidly insisting on applying this policy would ignore common sense and another part of that policy:
Herein lies this request for clarification. As I understand it editors should not advance only 'one of many conlusions. Yet what do we do when we are confronted with only one possible conclusion making bias, religious background, political persuasion, or whatever, totally irrelevant? Take these examples:
Example A
Can we say "all dogs are quadrupeds?" No, for us to say that we need a WP:RS saying that.
Example B
Can we say Pete stole "five apples?" No, we need RS saying that. But even then, some argue, we need a source linking 2+3 to this particular example. Even if we find a textbook saying 2+3=5, we cannot simply use that to say Pete stole five apples.
Example C
You guessed it, we cannot say "Pete went to France," et cetera.
Example D
Again we are not allowed to say "Pete drove 160 km/h."
Clearly this is an overly strict interpretation of policy leading to unreaasonable and silly objections (ignoring the fact this in no way violates "that builds a particular case favored by the editor") that defy all logic. My question is do we disallow synthesis even when there is only one possible conclusion? Remember, to be consistent we are then prohibited from changing mph into km/h and off adding 2+3. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 15:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
To be fair, this mainly relates to controversial topics and the mph is not the problem. Let me ask your opinion on a current debate:
My thinking is, since the MCA rewrote the WCA retroactively (the very definition of ex post facto law) it therefore is an ex post facto law. In this case another editor objects. To me it is difficult to see how any law that can be defined as retroactively rewritng cannot be an ex post facto law. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 16:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Although one situation is resolved I still am interested in changing policy in such a way that it either allows unambiguous synthesis (such as I described above) or be strictly enforced which means disallowing even things like adding 2+3. I understand and subscribe to the idea of building consensus. However, confronted with the same discussion time and time again I do feel we need to settle this by mentioning it in policy. Otherwise we keep rehashing this debate over and over again. Again I would like to ask how we can get policy to change in such a way that common sense is not entirely dismissed. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 00:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Heck, unless you find a source for it you can't even properly say all the James Bond books were originally written in English. That's absurd, but if it hasn't been published anywhere you can't say it in Wikipedia. Nor could you legitimately copy Lincoln's Gettysburg Address (nor anything else) into Microsoft Word and then publish the word count for it. That would be original research, even though anyone who wishes can count the words and verify that what you have said is true.
Minasbeede 02:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
We're told:
Morenoodles 08:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I've never seen "no original research" used in anything but a heated discussion over an edit war, where one user disagrees with another and uses it to undermine the validity of what the other person is trying to say. Often times it's justified, but sometimes it isn't. I understand the need to have a policy on original research, but there doesn't seem to be a very clear distinction between "original research" and POV. A user might add in an interpretation of something that someone else doesn't agree with, but isn't original research. I see two problems: 1) WP:OR is used (seemingly) more for POV bashing than its actual purpose, and 2) Often times published works based on original research or very undersourced claims are added in as sources, and aren't called attention to as unreliable sources. As of now, WP:OR applies to original research of wikipedians. I think unreliable sources would be weeded out more easily if added to WP:OR, because instead of beating around the bush in the talk page, arguing over content from a questionable source, a user could just refer to WP:OR and make their position on the source immediately clear. As we all know, arguing between editors is the biggest difficulty in trying to improve wikipedia, so a procedure for cutting down on arguing is probably warranted. 74.75.234.252 17:59, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Can people more familiar with this policy look at this? The HDI for the EU was basically calculated by another editor as the weighted average of the HDIs of the member states. A simple weighted average doesn't work because of the logarithm term. Also, it is unclear which population figures were used and may not be the same ones that the UN uses. Thanks. -- Polaron | Talk 12:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research
I take this to mean that asserting unfounded relationships is the problem. I do not take this to mean that an article on a topic that applies to diverse events is therefore verboten. The mere creation an article on a topic does not imply an assertion of relationship to its content other than the application of the topic to the contents.
Does having an article on a topic that can be applied to diverse subjects imply synthesis? I would think that to violate WP:SYN, the synthesis i.e. assertion of relationships would have to be explicit. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ ( AMA) 19:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
In several discussions I encountered two conflicting views on WP:OR/ WP:SYNTH. People repeatedly and on several articles cite:
However, there are cases in which rigidly insisting on applying this policy would ignore common sense and another part of that policy:
Herein lies this request for clarification. As I understand it editors should not advance only 'one of many conlusions. Yet what do we do when we are confronted with only one possible conclusion making bias, religious background, political persuasion, or whatever, totally irrelevant? Take these examples:
Example A
Can we say "all dogs are quadrupeds?" No, for us to say that we need a WP:RS saying that.
Example B
Can we say Pete stole "five apples?" No, we need RS saying that. But even then, some argue, we need a source linking 2+3 to this particular example. Even if we find a textbook saying 2+3=5, we cannot simply use that to say Pete stole five apples.
Example C
You guessed it, we cannot say "Pete went to France," et cetera.
Example D
Again we are not allowed to say "Pete drove 160 km/h."
Clearly this is an overly strict interpretation of policy leading to unreaasonable and silly objections (ignoring the fact this in no way violates "that builds a particular case favored by the editor") that defy all logic. My question is do we disallow synthesis even when there is only one possible conclusion? Remember, to be consistent we are then prohibited from changing mph into km/h and off adding 2+3. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 15:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
To be fair, this mainly relates to controversial topics and the mph is not the problem. Let me ask your opinion on a current debate:
My thinking is, since the MCA rewrote the WCA retroactively (the very definition of ex post facto law) it therefore is an ex post facto law. In this case another editor objects. To me it is difficult to see how any law that can be defined as retroactively rewritng cannot be an ex post facto law. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 16:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
User:Jayjg, an administrator for the past three years, and the wikipedia's 46th most prolific editor, performed this edit, with the edit summary, "(→Writings - remove original research, per talk)" — even though they had not engaged in any discussion on the talk page.
As best I can understand from an earlier explanation on Talk:David Frum, the other party considers collating the names of nine captives Frum had written about, using only their ID numbers, is considered WP:OR.
Cheers! Geo Swan 11:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Although one situation is resolved I still am interested in changing policy in such a way that it either allows unambiguous synthesis (such as I described above) or be strictly enforced which means disallowing even things like adding 2+3. I understand and subscribe to the idea of building consensus. However, confronted with the same discussion time and time again I do feel we need to settle this by mentioning it in policy. Otherwise we keep rehashing this debate over and over again. Again I would like to ask how we can get policy to change in such a way that common sense is not entirely dismissed. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 00:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Heck, unless you find a source for it you can't even properly say all the James Bond books were originally written in English. That's absurd, but if it hasn't been published anywhere you can't say it in Wikipedia. Nor could you legitimately copy Lincoln's Gettysburg Address (nor anything else) into Microsoft Word and then publish the word count for it. That would be original research, even though anyone who wishes can count the words and verify that what you have said is true.
Minasbeede 02:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Section Verifiability (V) needs clarification, who assesses the reliability of a source. I've experienced one such discussion, where one part claimed that X was an "disreputable" source, but I deemed that X was reputable, but that it contained less reliable information for cataloguing purposes. "Reputable publisher" is not a good criterion, the central point is whether a source can be used for citations, and what import such a citation has for the discourse of an article. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 10:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Original research here: User:Rursus/NPOV T. (Giggering evilly) Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 10:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Before I go to an RfC, I thought I would try here first. I am having (another) disagreement with User:Gamaliel on the Jeff Gannon article. In the section on White House visitor logs, an assertion is made that the logs make it appear that Gannon spent the night at the White House. A published reliable source has since been provided that does not mention Gannon by name, but was published around the same time that Gannon started first visiting the White House. The source shows that at that time, there were known problems with the Secret Service's logging system, which resulted in visitors being logged out of the WH 12 hours after they entered if they failed to swipe their pass on the way out. The source is published here and [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31154 here], and is referred to by a third party here. Gamaliel contends that using this source is original research, since it does not mention Gannon, and was published several days before he started visiting the WH (making it out of date info), and any linking of this to Gannon is a synthesis. It is my contention that this is "source-based" research, and that since the section it is being used in is on the topic of White House records, that this source is relevant to the discussion. It is not creating a link or synthesis to Gannon, it is commenting further on and providing context to the topic of the White House visitor logging system. If what Gamaliel is asserting is correct, then the larger implication is that any reliable source that is used in an article, and does not specifically mention that subject in the source, is to be considered OR and removed. Is that really what WP:OR means? - Crockspot 17:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
It is quite obvious that the Wikipedia policy is broken. The issue is how to fix it. After lurking here and contributing for some time, I do not think it likely that this discussion page can solve the problem. 01001 05:20, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
? 01001 00:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I have asked this question because I would like to know if Wikipedia policy is fixed. Is there no hope for improvement? Or is there some road, some protocol, for improving policy? 01001 04:08, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Well if we looked at the archives for this article, a compelling case for change has already been made. The fact that a verified source regarding height and intelligence (and basically going unrefuted) is still in the stature article proves at least to me that the wikipedia policy is broken. This is just one example of broken Wikipedia policy that I know has existed for some time. I could easily find many more problems in articles, although it would be harder to find their age.
There is another problem regarding research. Who in their right mind is going to do careful research for Wikipedia when someone else can come along and delete it? 01001 00:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Do you suggest an annotated version of wikipedia policies? MrMurph101 20:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
let's say for the sake of argument that I was a freelance reporter for various news outlets. I witnessed some news and turned in a story to the New York Times. They publish the story. is this the only way that it can then be offered to Wikipedia? Meaning, if for instance no outlets did pick up my story, then you guys would not accept my story on your site? How is a story published in the New York times NOT original research? I mean, presumably a person researched a story, and then th Times published it, right? Why does that next little step of something being published make it a "fact" in Wikipedia's eyes? Again I'm talking about hard news, not opinions or theories. For instance I see a major news event happen with my own eyes in person. Why is this not acceptable to Wikipedia? Just wanting some clarification on this, because it seems to me that every single line of text on this site is original research--or was at one point--so it seems odd that original research is listed as unapproved content. if by origignal research wikipedia is talking about opinions, then I totally get it. But if they are talking about facts, then I don't get it. Thanks!—Preceding unsigned comment added by Katherinewelles ( talk • contribs)
The following issue has been raised before, but I'm mentioning it again as I have never seen a satisfactory answer.
The "Smith/Jones" example says:
I don't think the Chicago Manual of Style contains any passage which says that it "requires citation of the source actually consulted""plagiarism is defined as using a source's information, ideas, words, or structure without citing them", or anything that could be construed as that, and that the example is misleading. Can anyone provide a specific page reference to the Chicago manual of Style? If not, I think it is misleading to attribute this to the manual. Does anyone disagree and think the existing wording should stay, with specific reasons? Personally, I don't think it's OK to give a misleading reference to a source, even in an example (and especially not in an example on a policy page like this which is specifically about remaining true to sources).
Enchanter 00:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC) Modified after rechecking source
Enchanter 22:15, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
After rechecking the source I'm pretty convinced that the example misattributes the definition of plagiarism to the CMS (if anyone wants to double check, you can sign up easily for a free trial at chicagomanualofstyle.org).
I proposed that the example is removed unless and until this problem is fixed. The example has a number of other problems too (it is unclear for the casual reader, and in my view does not hang together logically if you follow it through carefully). The example could be modified or replaced by another example, and suggestions would be welcome. But leaving it in its current unclear and misleading state, which it has been in for months, is in my view just not acceptable. For the moment having no example at all would be better than having one which is just embarassingly bad. Enchanter 12:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The removal of the example has been reverted by SlimVirgin, and I have now reverted it back.
Slimvirgin - please read the above, which I referred to in my edit comment. I asked very specifically for a cite to the definition of plagiarism that the policy page claims is contained in the Chicago Manual. This is a citation that you should be able to give, because you were the editor who originally wrote the example. You have not provide a direct page or section reference to the manual, even though you were the original editor who added the material, and even though the manual is easily available online, and easy to search.
If you cannot provide a citation, please give your reasons why you believe that it is not important that the source is used correctly in this instance (although see comments on "irony" above). I remind you that the example is supposed to be illustrating synthesis of "published material", not "hypothetical material" or "wildly misrepresented material". In my view, misrepresenting the CMS on a Wikipedia policy page is embarassing, and we should be ashamed of it and correct it.
I am frankly disappointed by your editing behaviour here - you have made very similar reverts before, and you did not respond when I asked for your reasons on the talk page and your user talk page. This is especially so because you are normally an editor who, in my experience, sticks closely to sources and is willing to debate issues. Further to Ken's comment above, I think you need to ask yourself honestly whether you have got too attached to this example because it was used to win an editing argument that you personally were involved with. Bringing editing arguments from controversial pages onto policy pages is, in my view, bad practice. In this instance, it led to this page being protected for weeks while a number of disruptive editors with no close interest in improving Wikipedia policy argued the issue. The outcome was an example that is incoherent, misleadingly sourced, and that hasn't been subject to enough reasoned scrutiny and debate. Enchanter 21:29, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Enchanter, please stay focused on the message, not the messenger, and let's not look for ulterior motives. The point is that there are a lot of cases where well meaning editors fall into WP:SYNT traps, by not realizing that providing sources is not a cure-all for OR. This real-life example is important, because it shows a real situation that real editors misunderstood. Whether the CMOS defines plagiarism one way or another is immaterial here - the point is that unless a source specifically mentions the subject in question, we cannot as editors create an argument as is being done here, sourced or not. You seem to be so hung up on the specific CMOS definition of plagiarism that you are missing the more general point that it doesn't matter how it defines it - it may not be used, period. Crum375 23:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
FWIW, I'll risk sticking my head above the parapet, I simply don't get the point that is trying to be made on the main page, and the conversational style of the language used is out of step with the normal language. I do think I understand the concept, which makes the example doubly problematic. In terms of this argument here, I find Enchanter's logic clear and obvious as to the problem with the example (lots of different ways of trying to point out the example is not very good). The point of using a synthetic example is that it is impersonal and can be engineered to make the point clearly: people have been doing this for a good few thousand years (I'll avoid citing the bible and Aesop's fables), so I would not be so quick to devalue it as a poorer technique for getting a point across. Spenny 00:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the Smith/Jones example again, as I do not think there has been a satisfactory argument why it should remain. To reiterate, the example falsely claims that the Chicago Manual Style contains a certain definition of plagiarism, whereas in reality it contains no such definition. In my view, misquoting or misattributing sources is to be vigorously discouraged on Wikipedia, and there is no excuse for doing it on a policy page.
The argument has been made by SlimVirgin that the example is a "real" example lifted from a Wikipedia policy page, and that the misquoting is irrelevant. I think this would be a weak argument even if the example was real. But in fact, the original example it is based on does not misquote the Chicago manual (although it is confusingly written and easy to misinterpret). The misquoting of the manual was introduced by SlimVirgin when she rewrote the example several months after she had added it. The argument that we need to misquote the CMS because it is a "real" example does not stand up to scrutiny. Enchanter 19:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm disappointed in the edit-warring. I've been tinkering with coming up with an alternative example, and I have to say, the more I do, I think the less relevant synthesis is as a concept. It seems to me that it is a complicated word to give a special case of OR, the case being OR based on cited (or well known) material. This seems to me to be all about defending a concept that doesn't really need to exist, as it is simply a clarification that any (controversial) statement needs to be tested in its own right, not just by testing the underlying facts. I did come up with a list of criteria for an example beauty-contest, such as: don't have examples with concepts that the wider public might not be comfortable with; not all users are graduates, use simple language; and don't use examples discussing related issues at the same time (are we supposed to be understanding plagiarism or synthesis?), but the stumbling block I had was coming up with an example that differentiated in any worthwhile way between general OR and special case Synthesis. When I thought I had, I couldn't see what was to be gained from it. I think we are really dealing with Wiki-Jargon, but I'd be happy if someone can give me another clear example of why I should worry about synth over OR Spenny 23:32, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I again propose that the example is deleted, because the issues detailed above (i.e. that it misrepresents sources, misrepresents the case that it is based on, that it is not properly explained, and that it is not logically sound). This is because these issues have still not been addressed. Does anyone have any comments or objections? If anyone thinks the example should stay, please address the points above and explain the logic of the example in detail, so that others can assess whether the explanation is valid. Enchanter 21:01, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
To resummarise the above points as I see them:
I think the problems above are too fundamental to be fixed with modifications to the example, and in my view this complicated and controversial case is a bad case study to use. I would support exploring ways of improving the policy to explain it more clearly - perhaps including alternative examples. In the meantime, I again propose that the example is removed, as it was reverted without any of these issues being addressed. Again, if anyone thinks the example should stay, please give specific reasons. If I am right about the above, I think there is a compelling case for it to be removed - and if I am wrong, someone ought to be able to explain why. Enchanter 00:05, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Not that I know anything, but to me Enchanter's point seems fairly straightforward, and just because the example is on a page that most people would not see does not mean that it should not use a correct quote or attribute it to the correct source. To put it another way SlimVirgin/Crum375, if you break a law, but you don't do it in a public place or no one sees you do it, does that still make it acceptable? Perhaps, and I'm not sure if this is how it's done at wikipedia, SlimVirgin/Crum375 should not have authority over this piece/decision since if they wrote it, and as someone pointed out, are attached to it, it would seem to be a clear conflict of interest. 24.19.42.84 09:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, the example with the Chigago manual of style is completely unfounded. Please delete it. -- 62.134.230.98 08:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Every encyclopedia article MUST contain some degree of original research and synthesis, otherwise it is not an encyclopedic article. The sources of these obvious arguments cannot be published because it is too specific and obvious to publish. However, these arguments are removed, despite its amazing obviousness. It just take one user who believe that it is original research to remove the argument. Even it is extremely obvious, that user that reverted think it is not obvious, since at least someone will disagree out of the billions of users in wikipedia.
Ironically, some more obvious WP:OR arguments are removed but less obvious WP:OR arguments are not being removed. These less obvious WP:OR arguments that are not removed are usually led by an emotional attachment such as a glittering generality. These statements are generally accepted by everyone, so the original research in the argument is also assumed true.
Also, intuitive WP:OR statements, whether true or not, are less likely to be removed than the more " paradoxical" WP:OR statements (even when the more paradoxical WP:OR statements are MUCH more obvious than the intuitive statements).
Even if a statement is a perfectly rational and magnificently obvious WP:OR statement, some less-intelligent user, out of billions wikipedia users, will view the statement as paradoxical and see it as original research and will remove it. It is unfair to the less obvious original research statement based on glittering generalities, etc..
Those that have low analytical skills will see some perfectly rational statements as original research.
These statements may be extremely obvious to experts in the field but the person with low analytical skills will consider it as original research.
Unfreeride 01:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
The following quotes are taken from the WP:POV article, pointing out how they explicitly invite violation of WP:SYN and thus WP:NOR. Thus, somebody needs to point out that WP:NOR cannot be upheld at every level in an article, or else this encyclopedia would consist of nothing but direct quotations and nothing else (as has been pointed out, repeatedly by others, alas so no avail). And that, futhermore, WP:NPOV is meant to be a global, not a local policy, because obviously POV's need to be summarized FIRST in order to get to a global NPOV perspective in any article. WP:SYN admits this. Again, quoting from WP:SYN, with my comments afterward:
Debates are described, represented, and characterized, but not engaged in. Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular.
Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of each viewpoint, but studiously refrain from stating which is better.
One can think of unbiased writing as the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate. When bias towards one particular point of view can be detected, the article needs to be fixed.
SUMMARY COMMENT: The big problem here is that Wikipedia doesn't really know what it wants, or isn't really specific about saying it. It calls for local systhesis of various sources to come up with "fair analytical description" of various sides of a debate, assuming that NOPV will be upheld after all that is done. And so it will, globally. But one cannot do the local synthesis required to summarize any particlar POV in a debate, without doing sythetic work, as the above instructions themselves admit.
So, O Wikipedia: either admit that your instructions here are in violation of other WP polities, or else admit that the NPOV and NOR policies need to be re-written, because they are really meant only to be applied GLOBALLY in search of a global NPOV, while needing to be violated on the local level (subarticle level), in order to generate syntheses of the various POV "debate sides," which go into the making of an overall NPOV article. S B H arris 22:15, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
If this is unclear my underlying message is that SYN, as it exists and enforced, seems to be a detriment to encyclopedic quality. Logic is not a reliable source as far as Wikipedia is concerned (uh-oh, I have no source for that.) If I read in source A that "all men are mortal" and in source B that "Socrates is a mortal" I am not, in Wikipedia, permitted to conclude that if the messages from A and from B are both correct then "Socrates is a mortal."
Minasbeede 17:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
So far as I can see, a POV is advanced every time you state it, followed by enumeration of reputable scholars who agree with it. That is "advancement by enumeration." It's impossible to avoid, but it violates SYN, and yet it is also expected, which means we're in a quandary. Here's a favorite quote of mine: from NOR: It is not the responsibility of any one editor to research all points of view. But when incorporating research into an article, it is important that editors situate the research; that is, provide contextual information about the point of view, indicating how prevalent the position is, and whether it is held by a majority or minority. <Laugh> Is the editor supposed to do that HIMSELF?? (HERSELF??). And just how are they supposed to do THAT, given the guidelines?? Tell me what I'm missing.
As for your other point, let me suggest to you that it's extraordinarly difficult to find appropriate "reputable source" (and just what that is, and why it should be what it is, is a separate argument), for various and all POVs. If you disagree, cite me 3 random Wikipedia "featured articles" and I will bet you I can find at least one NOR violation (i.e., POV synthesis without a "reputable" primary or secondary cite) in every one of them. Jimbo, for his part, seems to repeatedly confuse verifiable sources with reputable sources (he thinks newspapers are reputable, yuk, yuk). But a sub-issue is the fact that "obvious" and widely held POV's are often not to be found in secondary sources, which (I will observe) don't make their scholarly living by publishing opinion which is already widely held. Jimbo: "If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts" ANSWER: sometimes, yes, but those very texts tend then to be tertiary sources (like encyclopedias), not secondary ones, and are the very sources derided by Wikipedia. If a viewpoint is indeed majority, secondary sources tend to assume it, not state it. S B H arris 23:20, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
More and more of my contributions are being challenged or reverted for original research when they definitely DO NOT fall under the statements in the "What is excluded?" section of these guidelines. I wholeheartedly agree that original research, as defined in these guidelines, is to be avoided. However, sometimes, it is often difficult to find a source for patently obvious information that can easily be verified by anyone who wants to take a few moments to do it.
For example, while researching material for the article on place (United States Census Bureau), I noticed that the USGS always places the latitude and longitude of an unincorporated town or village at or near a major intersection. I also noticed that the Census Bureau places the latitude and longitude of the same places near the geometric center of the census designated place by the same name. However, after devoting considerable time to searching, I could not find a source on the Internet to cite. I put the information into the article and it was immediately challenged as original research and threatened with speedy reversion.
First of all, these edits did not meet any of the seven guidelines that define original research. They did not: introduce a theory or method of solution; introduce original ideas; define new terms; provide new definitions of preexisting terms; refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position; build a particular case favored by me; or use or introduce and neologisms. I was simply stating the obvious. Secondly, I agree that sources needed to be found. However, as I assume most editors do, I happen to have a day job and I needed to leave that chore for later--or perhaps for one of the thousands of other editors who better knew how to find such information.
In the end, I sent e-mails to both organizations and got confirmation of my observations with web links to cite as references. The end result was good. However, unreferenced material, such as simply making an observation that anyone glance at a map and verify, should not be threatened with speedy deletion. Also, if you think material needs to be verified, don't forget that the editor probably has other obligations that take priority over Wikipedia. He or she may need a little time to do the research.
More recently, I put the story of two major fatal crashes of helicopters that were en route to or from Disneyland in the article on Incidents at Disney parks. I cited a posting on a discussion board that in-turn cited a book on aviation disasters. Within a couple of hours I has a message threating to revert my edit if I didn't state a proper reference. Okay, my bad, I directly cited the book. This morning I got a message from the same person saying--not good enough, no page number. Okay, next time I'm downtown and have some time on my hands, I'll duck into the library and find the bloody page number. In the meantime, I do have a life other than Wikipedia.
The bottom line is that we are all amateurs and should be helping each other, not just challenging each other's edits. I have added references to other editor's material but all I've ever gotten for my own material is reversions and threats of reversion.
The solution is that hard-to-verify material, when something obvious is stated or there is a preponderance of evidence that the story is true, should not be quickly deleted. Time should be given to find proper references. For example, the helicopter story. I remember when it happened. There are several sources on the Internet discussing the incident. There are bits of reliable information on the Internet that can be pieced together to confirm that it happened. However, I spent over an hour trying to find a single site that can be used as a proper reference and could not find a suitable site. After posting the story with the best references I could find another editor took only a moment to threaten to delete it (rather than take some time to help find a good reference). There needs to be a way to temporarily reference such material while proper references are sought. Also, more editors need to help out in finding references, not just delete unsourced material. In other words, we need more editors and fewer cops on Wikipedia. Rsduhamel 16:49, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The Wikipedia:Citing sources page states, "Any material that is challenged and for which no source is provided may be removed by any editor." This means that putting a "fact" or "cn" tag on a statement is a threat to delete it. I never accused any particular person of any particular threat.
I never said that a particular helicopter crash is "obvious". I was talking about such things as noting that the dots on a map that identify a named place usually fall on or near intersections. The helicopter crashes can be easily verified with a little sleuthing but nothing that can be cited. Does this mean they should not be included in the article while better sources are sought? I will get the page number. It may not happen this week or the next but when I find time to go to the library it will happen, if someone doesn't beat me to it. In the meantime there should be a way to include material that is supported by a preponderance of evidence while proper citations are sought. Rsduhamel 21:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Believe it or not, I think we are headed for agreement here. However, like I've said, I have a life outside Wikipedia and I have to turn my attention elsewhere for the time being. I'll respond to this ASAP. Rsduhamel 03:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
There is an article titled Height and Intelligence. This section cites some sources. Of course, no one in their right mind would take the time to investigate the sources in a Wikipedia article. In this case it is not really necessary. Anyone that would write research purporting to advance the notion that increased height brought greater intelligence is clearly suffering from some form of ego and personality disorder. Logic can easily defeat this thesis.
Unfortunately, Wikipedia does not allow logic to defeat this strange crackpot idea purporting to be scholarly research. One must find a verified source. But this would require a source with similar psychological disorders. Unless of course this source happened to be reading Wikipedia. 01001 01:45, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Sandpiper, WilyD you should be ashamed. If you guys cannot be bothered to read the wikipedia article, let alone drag yourselves to the library to investigate any of the scientific research on this topic (cited in the article in question) then what business do you have writing an encyclopedia? 01001 makes the case for WP:NOR here quite elegantly, once again (like his views on the evolutionary loss of body hair, see here) he persists in stating that his opinions *must* be true, despite the demonstrated fact that scientists have seriously considered, and then soundly rejected them. I cannot imagine a clearer example of ignorance, and there is absolutely no way that the whims of willfully ignorant bozos ought to decide what gets presented as scientific fact in an encyclopedia. Pete.Hurd 04:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
now there is a link, i read the article. As suggsted, there is no way of quickly checking that the sources are being referenced accurately. However, there are enough of them to suggest someone has had a serious attempt at presenting the debate accurately, and the article does not read as biased. If it is biased, then I would have to say it goes out of its way to suggest that the link between intelligence and height is not a causal one. This does seem to me logical: if you starve children I would not be surprised that both their height and intelligence were affected. Perhaps this is where the debate on the nutritional quality of junk food comes into play? From my answer you would correctly conclude that I have gained the impression from the article that there does exist a proven, undisputed correlation between height and intelligence. As suggested, if you think this is incorrect, then what is needed is sources claiming no such correlation exists. Sandpiper 07:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Please come to Osteopathic medicine. There seems to be a clearcut case of a WP:SYN violation which keeps getting reverted. There is discussion on this matter here. I would appreciate some third-party opinions. Thanks. -- Levine2112 discuss 21:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Wasn't all research original research at one point in time, just because someone writes a book about something or publishes a theory doesn't mean his opinion is any more valid than anyone elses, I mean, If I fly on a American Airlines jet and see that the seats are all cream colored, but some book says that all American Airlines seats are blue, doesn't that mean that my original research is completely valid?
Note that Wikiversity allows, and even encourages, OR. StuRat 16:44, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
The policy read, "reliable published source who writes about the same claims or advances the same argument as you." - sources can't write anything, as defined later, sources are books, journals or newspapers. Authors can however write about things. I have changed this to "reliable published source that advances the same claims or makes the same argument as you." I hope this is OK.
Also the list that at present states:
I tried to insert the word "new", but this change was reverted. Which option would people prefer? Tim Vickers 01:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I propose to clarify the section on original images by adding a sub-sentence at the very end, resulting in:
“Images that constitute original research in any other way are not allowed, such as a diagram of a hydrogen atom showing extra particles in the nucleus as theorized by the uploader, or a diagram representing a business or engineering process from one particular viewpoint where there possibly are many competing viewpoints.”
In my opinion, the selection of one particular viewpoint among many constitutes original research. Iterator12n 18:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
On a different tack, some images do "propose unpublished ideas or arguments". For example, I recall a photograph of an unusual animal carcass in the American Southwest that the uploader considered to be an example of animal sacrifice, though he could not point to any documented tradition of animal sacrifice in the area. Perhaps we should also have a guideline against "look at this strange thing I stumbled upon"-type photographs.-- Pharos 22:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
User:SlimVirgin has repeatedly objected to the copy-edits made in these edits as she feels that
The specific objections are:
1) Introduces a new theory is unnecessary; if it's introducing it, it's a new one;
So the phrase "Introduces ideas" wasn't seen as enough and the word "original" was added, either you need such an additional clarifying word in both items, or in neither.
2) Sources are people or publications, so saying "who" of a source is fine The old wording was "a reliable published source who writes about", but all the reliable sources listed later were books, newspaper articles etc, nowhere is this policy are people referred to as "reliable sources". Indeed, people can never be reliable sources.
3) "A journalist's analysis and commentary on a traffic accident is based on eye-witness reports ..." But what if it isn't?
The old wording was "A journalist's analysis or commentary of a traffic accident based on eye-witness reports is a secondary source. " the edit was to "A journalist's analysis and commentary on a traffic accident is based on eye-witness reports and is a secondary source." - this does not change the meaning of the sentence.
4) Nothing wrong with his or her.
"His and her" or even worse "s/he" is clumsy English, "their" is clearer.
5) By a publisher, not in a source, because sources are sometimes people.
People are not reliable sources, people write reliable sources. Tim Vickers 19:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Old version - "a reliable published source who writes about the same claims or advances the same argument as you."
New version - "a reliable published source that advances the same claims or makes the same argument as you."
FWIW, SV are you simply missing that Tim is simply trying to make some fairly basic corrections of grammar (which having looked at the diff may well seem irrelevant, but they are generally correct)? These are not intended to be policy changes. Spenny 21:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
The reversion of the edits we are currently discussing is not a positive action. SlimVirgin, you are the only person who has problems with the edits. Please do not act unilaterally. Tim Vickers 21:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Request for diffs - You claim I introduced "pointless changes along with changes that made no sense, and reverting when people objected," could you please provide a diff for any reversions I have made on these policy pages that restored my edits after their removal by other editors? Tim Vickers 23:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and by the way, I'd rate it as impolite that I attempted to take this discussion offline to your talk page and it is simply archived (seems to mean deleted as there is no obvious link to an archive that I discern) without comment or response. I did a little reading around this morning and I am now a little less convinced of my belief that you are acting in good faith. Spenny 12:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
To focus the discussion a little and make it less personal, could people please indicate which of these edits they object to? That would allow us to replace the majority of the grammatical corrections and clarifications and concentrate on working towards a consensus wording on the disputed changes. Tim Vickers 04:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
The relevant edits are:
I feel it is appropriate to suggest that silence is approval for these changes presented in this way. I would not like to see a revert justified on no consensus for change after a reasonable passage of time. Spenny 20:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
The page has now been unprotected. Are there any editors with strong objections to the consensus wordings that are outlined above? Tim Vickers 20:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
One of the sections is titled "What is excluded?"; however, the contents of that sections suggest what is constituted as OR, rather than what is not considered OR, as the section title suggests. Should this be changed to a more appropriate title (i.e. "Examples," etc.)? Although I am an admin and can change this in an instant, I am loath to, given the current state of affairs and full protection of the page. — Kurykh 04:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
A number of Tim's edits to the page were grammar issues that, while I saw the new ones as improved, they weren't vital to me. however, there were two things I needed to bring up:
It introduces a theory or method of solution;
Tim's rewrite of it is important that editors situate the research; that is, provide contextual information about the point of view was absolutely better. So much so, though it used almost the exact same words, that it almost makes me believe SV is reverting Tim's stuff because it's Tim's.
On the other hand, the use of 'their' and 'they' for singular gender-free usage is actually still really atrocious. I hate 's/he' with a passion, but I really find the awkwardness of 'his or her' preferable.
And no, I'm not regularly around this place; but I'm nearing 1000 edits, and I have a good understanding of these policies that I've been using, and I'm a writer and sometime journalist who does tech manuals and usability design (so I spend a lot of time saying 'how is that going to be misunderstood?'), who would like to see much more clarity in policies.
(btw, on the other issue, 'may be deleted' is never a good phrasing, as, depending whether you're an editor or an admin, it can be read as a crapshoot (may be deleted....may not be...), and to an admin, it can be read as permission (you may (can) delete). 'Will be' is obviously incorrect, but 'may be' is never a good term to use when you don't want misinterpretations. -- Thespian 04:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Minasbeede 12:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
There is no agreement about the exact meaning of "primary source" versus "secondary source" as the terms relate to wikipedia. Further there is no consensus on their exact proper useage in wikipedia. There is some rough agreement, good enough so it is mostly not worth worrying about. But we've been over all this before, right slim? Historians and scientists dealing with quantitative objective data each use the term "primary source" to mean different things. Further, the source itself is not "primary" or "secondary" but how you use a claim from a source makes it so with respect to wikipedia's sourcing of that claim. If wikipedia quotes a reporter's article then that article is wikipedia's primary source on quotes from that article. Which can include an analysis which is original with the reporter. So the article is the primary source for that analysis. It can also include the reporter's quoting of some other source which then makes the article a secondary source for wikipedia's sourcing of information the reporter had a source for. The data the reporter used for his analysis was a source other than the reporter himself, but his original analysis is not sourced from that other source and so his article is a primary source for wikipedia's use of that analysis. Historians see documents as primary sources while often scientists refer to the actual experiments as their original source. Experts prefer primary sources but "wikipedia prefers secondary sources" is claimed by some leading to a dysfunctional relationship between experts and wikipedia causing an expert retention problem and wikiality where people who don't know a subject vote on how to write it based on newspaper misreports. All of this is too much for this policy and I think the less the policy talks about primary and secondary sources the better. WAS 4.250 08:55, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm new. I'm working on an article for a small commuter line/tourist railroad called Samtrak. There is a small amount of published material in our local newspaper that I can quote, but I'd like interview both the owner and engineer for the railroad to verify the newspaper articles and fill in missing information. Is that considered original research? Should I archive the interview online (recording and transcript) so it can be verified that I'm quoting it correctly. What's the Wikipedia way for doing this? PerlDreamer 18:17, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree. There are degrees of evidence. This would be considered weaker than a published third-party account, and it would not be strong enough to replace such a published account even if you knew it to be more "true". For a topic that is not likely to be controversial and that has at least some other published reference to confirm it is not a total fabrication, I would encourage you to do what you are describing. The opportunity to have useful material with accessible source outweighs the chance that it could be a hoax and we couldnt figure it out. alteripse 02:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I've unlocked the article, I hope you can all work it out without edit warring again. Remember, one bold edit, one reversion, and then lots of discussion to consensus, and then the next bold edit, the next reversion, the next discussion and the next consensus, and then the next...
Good luck. Hiding Talk 12:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
It is clear to me that Open Source Software brings a product of much higher quality than Wikipedia brings. Also Open Source Software not only allows OR, but thrives on it. 01001 23:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I've noted a number of problems with the example on synthesis above in the "Chicago manual of style" section, which I think justify removing the example. I would suggest either having no example (we don't illustrate any other points in the policy with examples), or a simpler, more straightforward one that is more easily understood. Here's some suggested text based on a previous discussion at the now defunct WP:ATT/FAQ:
Lots of other examples would be possible. Any comments or suggestions for improvements, or alternative examples? Enchanter 19:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I think we are talking about two types of original research here. For each type of original research, there are different reasons why we don't want it in Wikipedia.
1) The original idea for the no original research policy was to avoid having statements in Wikipedia that we couldn't judge the truth of. This is the original and most obvious form of original research. If someone cites some results of physics experiments and puts forward their own new theory to explain the results, we are not equipped to judge whether it is groundbreaking work or a crackpot theory. So unless the theory has been published in a reliable source first, we don't want it in Wikipedia.
2) But going beyond this original definition of OR, there are more areas where we don't want new ideas in Wikipedia, even if they are well sourced and obviously logically true. This is particularly the case where the new ideas are controversial, or make allegations against individuals. These are the kinds of cases that Crum's examples were getting at. To give another example:
Importantly, although we exclude the basic logical deduction for the politican lying, we don't need to exclude basic logical deductions for straightforward uncontroversial cases (converting miles to kilometers, etc). I think it is the possibility of overextending the rules on controversial cases, where we are avoiding "advancing a position", to uncontroversial cases that is causing Spenny's and Sandpiper's concerns above. They are right in that an outright ban on making logical inferences or mathematical deductions would be inappropriate for a scholarly encyclopedia - but noone has really been arguing for this.
I think the policy would be clearer if we identified more specifically the reasons why we need to stick particularly close to sources in certain circumstances, and where boundaries should lie. It's a good idea on policy pages to explain clearly why we have a particular policy - noone likes following a rule if the reason it was introduced is not made clear.
The above is an oversimplification as there are more issues to consider in judging the boundaries of OR, but I hope it makes sense as an attempt to summarise the current debate. Comments welcome. Enchanter 00:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Part of this difficulty is because wiki has a NOR policy, when it is not talking about OR in the normally accepted academic sense. I think when the policy started, the writers probably had exactly the same meaning in mind, but wiki OR is now an entirely different thing. I am sure a lot of people do not like the line "However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia.", but I presume it remains here, because unless editors carry out original research in the normal sense, no encyclopedia is possible. The difficulty here seems to me that the attempt to ban synthesis is in conflict with a normal expectation of collecting information.
As I commented above, to deliberately leave out reliable information that a school was closed at the time someone was attending it is in itself to make a choice about which version is correct. This is clearly not a good example for demonstrating rules about synthesis if it relies upon side issues of controversiality to justify its existence. With regard to politicians, this seems to me more an issue of whether a statement is libelous, not whether it is true or OR. It is not libelous to state sourced facts. It would be potentially libelous to draw a conclusion that the person had lied in claiming to have attended the school, but it might also be the case that the school records had been mistakenly recorded, that the person's attendance was correct. The more I consider this, the more I think this is a very bad example to choose. It is more an example of what to do when equally valid contradictory information exists. Explain both pieces of information giving them equal weight. I agree there is a conflict between an attempt to ban all possible synthesis and still making a neutral presentation of facts. But this cannot be resolved by arguing that synthesis trumps neutrality. It has to be resolved by accepting that inevitably situations exist in which there is contradictory information. This can only be resolved by explaining all the information, without further comment.
As to tall people and doorways, I am reminded of a local town which has a number of elizabethan houses with doorways 5 foot high. I dare say they were all built to code at that time. In this case, there is no obvious contradiction between the facts that people hit there heads, and that building regulations exist. Whether hitting ones head gets mentioned would depend upon whether someone though it worth mentioning. This is a much better example of synthesis, though it risks the problem again that trivially it is very probably true and a real encyclopedia would have no difficulty including it.
Returning to politicians lying. It would be unacceptable to claim that the politician did lie, but it would not be unacceptable to state that on one occasion he said x, and on another he said the contradictory Y. This is straight reporting of established facts. I can only imagine such an issue coming up in the context of reporting what a politicain had done about something, and it would then obviously be correct to state that on one occasion his view was x, but at another it was Y. Failing to report either is immediately to take a position on which is valid, and is unacceptable. It exactly is the role of people writing an encyclopedia to judge what is relevant for inclusion in an article, and in this example to dig out evidence for what the politician has done. Not because he is a politician, but because the role of an editor is to find, assess and neutrally present sourced information. Sandpiper 09:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Going back to the "school" example given by Crum, I don't necessarily agree with the comments that this was "too obvious" (although it might be in some contexts). To give some more context and explanation for what the example is driving at, let's try:
The above explanation is perhaps too long and should be edited down. However, do people agree with the general reasoning of the example set out above? Enchanter 23:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Creating a new analysis from reliable sources.
When considering whether an edit introduces a new concept, it is important to understand that it is not just the introduction of underlying facts that need to be considered, but the analysis of those facts too. In Wikipedia, the process of creating new ideas out of proven facts is often called synthesis. Whilst creating articles is about collating information and there is a low level of analysis that cannot be avoided in that process, it is assumed that there should be no need for significant new analysis. The acid test for what is reasonable is the concept of advancing a position. If the analysis required to present a concept is more than a simple summary, especially if it creates a contentious view point, then, however well grounded in fact it is, an objector would be entitled to request the citation of the analysis. If no justification is forthcoming, then the analysis should be removed. Further, in sensitive articles, such as living biographies, the simple arrangement of facts on a page might be enough to create an analysis. Although it might be considered to be censorship to remove proven facts about a topic, editors need to be sensitive to the feelings of individuals and be aware that even inadvertent libel can create legal issues that could threaten the viability of Wikipedia. To give an example of the problem,...
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | → | Archive 25 |
Vision thing just wanted to add this from RS:
Some tertiary sources are more reliable than others, and within any given tertiary source, some articles may be more reliable than others. For example, articles signed by experts in Encyclopaedia Britannica and encyclopedias of similar quality can be regarded as reliable secondary sources instead of tertiary ones. Unsigned articles may be less reliable, but they may be used so long as the encyclopedia is a high quality one.
Any thoughts? SlimVirgin (talk) 20:48, 19 April 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure I trust Britannica any more than I trust wikipedia. They're both encyclopedias, right? -- Kim Bruning 14:49, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
I think this is important to add for the reasons stated above. If no objections, I'm going to add it tonight and see if it sticks. - Merzbow 20:58, 4 May 2007 (UTC)
The problem with the Wikipedia policy is that there is no critique included with it. The policy is badly flawed, but stating the reasons here is a complete waste of time as these words will soon be archived and forgotten, included with all the rest of the drivel written here.
Any policy to have any validity must include its critique or it is just mindless nonsense. Once the critique of the policy is sharpened the policy itself will finally begin to approach validity.
Original research is a red herring. Some of the problems with Wikipedia are:
1.) Quality work being degraded with later edits.
2.) Controversial subjects Being treated very poorly because of the OR policy.
3.) Quality work being erased due to the OR policy.
...etc...
But this article is complete nonsense without discussion. And this means discussion in the article itself so its critique can be refined. The discussion on the discussion page is basically worthless in this article because important ideas just get lost. For example there was a very important thread regarding verifed falehoods. This thread was relegated to the archives, but it really belongs in the main article. 01001 05:04, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Let's see
"Quality work being degraded with later edits." - That's the risk with an open model, regardless of WP:OR policy
"Controversial subjects Being treated very poorly because of the OR policy." - If there is no work out there that an editor can cite, then the topic can't be that controversial. Controversial topics are among the easiest to avoid WP:OR with as there is plenty of argument from both sides.
"Quality work being erased due to the OR policy." - If it's the quality work of an editor, not a third party, then that is precisely what WP:OR is supposed to do.
perfectblue 07:53, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
01001 I think your basic premise is flawed. If there is something you feel is badly stated in the policy, it can be changed. Policies are not set in stone, you just need consensus to make a change. It's possible. Wjhonson 03:29, 29 April 2007 (UTC)
Continuing to talk at a meta-level 01001 isn't helpful. If you had a section with that title, please specify some exact language you'd like to see *in* it. It's pointless to simply ask for a title without any language. Wjhonson 07:02, 30 April 2007 (UTC)
Can we put original research into a sister project and link to it like we do Wikiquote? - Peregrine Fisher 04:12, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
-- Kylohk 15:14, 2 May 2007 (UTC)
My view on the question of original research is that if a person can not be trusted to form sound conclusions then he/she should not be working on an article. The result of this policy is articles that read, at best, like high school group term papers; and which read, at worst, like bad high school book reports. It amounts to mediocrity by design.
Kwork 20:07, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
There are several things wrong with the Original Research policy, but the thing that really drives me nuts is how it's affected talk pages. If you dare to say anything other than simple declarative sentences, someone will *always* jump in with a WP:OR. It's gone past annoyance, I think, and has become a real communication hindrance. Instead of actually replying your posts, people just accuse you of original research and ignore you. Hell, I just had someone hit me with a terse "WP:OR" accusation/reply after I replied to a mediation page regarding a contested redirection! Even if we needed citations for page redirection decisions (and in the name of everything that's holy, I sincerely hope we don't), does every single sentence I post to a talk page need to be sourced? Can we please just talk, discuss and debate the issue rationally and worry about the citation only when people start talking about making specific changes?
I would like to see a note somewhere in the No Original Research policy that says people aren't required to be borg drones on the talk pages ("That doesn't quite make sense to me." ... "Sorry! That's original research! You lose!"), and that WP:OR tags should only be brought out when someone is referring to a specific change in the article itself. It's becoming downright anti-intellectual, because you can't question ANY argument anymore using your own logic. I'm not saying that I should be able to insert my own logic into the article, I'm saying that my own logic does have a place in discussing the article.
Regardless of the sources involved/needed, the article should not say stupid, or factually incorrect, or logically inconsistent things and I shouldn't be forced to slog through Google for an hour to be able to point out that such things are, in fact, stupid/incorrect/inconsistent. If you have that kind of time and patience, good for you, but I don't think my input should be impeached simply because I didn't regurgitate someone else's rhetoric (and again, this is just the TALK PAGE, not the article itself.)
I shouldn't need a source to refute someone else's unsourced argument on a talk page. I shouldn't need a source to suggest that we remove an *unsourced* claim (in the article) that appears, via my own "synthesis", to be incorrect. I shouldn't need a source to suggest that we reword something. I shouldn't need a source to debate an article redirection.
I already know what wikipedia *is* and what it *isn't*, thank you very much, and I'm tired of getting beat over the head by rule lawyers who are NOT contributing anything useful to the discussion. -- Lode Runner 06:42, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
BTW, while I'm at it, I may as well save space and point out that everything I just said about making new policy in the appropriate TALK pages of policy articles, cannot possibly be subject to WP:NPOV, either. A new proposed policy has to be SOMEBODY'S opinion, does it not? By definition. Jimbo doesn't make all new policy, and if nobody else is to do so, that pretty much ends wikipedia's growth. How then will we decide how many links are too many, and other weighty issues, in the manual of style? This is not an academic matter, as I actually just had somebody accuse one of my proposals in the manual of style as being to much "opinion". Yeah, well, so what of it? It's ALL opinion there! Some of it older than others, is all.
And finally, of course every time a matter is opened for debate in Wikipedia, from ArbCom to RfD, it's people's opinions (points of view) that are being solicited. NPOV does not, cannot, apply there. The guts and making of Wikipedia are full of OR and POV. It's the mainspace articles where we try to minimize it. Some people have not "gotten" this, and it needs to be made more clear in the LEAD of both of these policy pages. And WP:ATT as well. All these are, or should be, and in some cases MUST be, mainspace policies ONLY. That's my OPINION, and I'm stickin to it! S B H arris 23:22, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
My previous post (above) was more of a rant, but since people seem to have responded favorably to it, I would like to propose that we add a new section to the WP:NOR policy.
<begin>
Original research should not be included in new articles or additions to existing Wikpedia articles. However:
These exceptions exist to facilitate intelligent debate, not shoehorn your own personal opinion into an article. Original research does not imply bias--editors are still expected to present a neutral point of view. </end>
Given the growing number of sniveling rule-lawyers who use WPs (and especially this WP:) to shout down opposition, I really think that this all needs to be spelled out. Not every post on a talk page is advocating an addition to the article, and I don't see how WP:NOR can be sanely applied to changes other than addition. The concept of "original research" applies to verifiable facts, not to word choice and page redirects. Don't get me wrong, this doesn't give anyone the right to start pulling stuff out of their ass--changes still need to be justified, but original research (especially synthesis) can and should be a part of that justification.
If I can get this section added, I'll push for similar additions to other WPs. Many of the WPs are applicable only to proposed article changes, but that isn't stopping some people from using them to shout down and drown out anyone who dares try to analyze an issue with their own rational mind, even if they aren't proposing a specific change just yet. -- Lode Runner 01:55, 3 May 2007 (UTC)
I also have to second your idea that NOR and NPOV are impossible to follow with absolute strictness, even in the mainspace, because if you did no sythesis at all, but merely pasted blocks of print from other sources one after the other, the quality of writing would suck. And you'd still violate NPOV in deciding what material to use and how much emphasis to give it. So in the end, in the spirit of WP:IAR I think what is meant by no original synthesis or research or overriding POV, is that you shouldn't have enough of these to draw attention to themselves. The reader should never say: "Woah, THAT'S loaded language!" or "Woah, THAT'S an agenda!" So long as you avoid that, you're usually okay. That's (after all) how most of the best articles in Wikipedia have been written. Thay all do some synthesis, and some POV-pushing (i.e., some kind of reasonable POV synthesis, rather than sythnesis of the many nutty ones). S B H arris 01:56, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
[de-indent]Fine, let's say I violated a guideline which does not appear anywhere on the WP:NOR or its talk page. It took Jake 2 seconds to fix it. This does not make me a bad person or invalidate my arguments. The fact remains that this was only a clarification. I did not contradict anything in WP:NOR (with the arguable exception of the IAR comment, but that applied only to cases where it was *unclear* as to whether something should be treated as original research.) -- Lode Runner 01:31, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Disagreed. Novel theories themselves shouldn't be included in the article, but in (for example) our recent FGC-related debates, I used original research (and arguably novel theories insomuch as they aren't drawn from any particular source) to justify rephrasing a line that was not specifically supported by the sources given. Intelligent reasoning MUST be preserved--it is only the inclusion of suspect information that must be fought. -- Lode Runner 00:30, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
WP:NOT#OR"Wikipedia is not a publisher of original thought" "Wikipedia is supposed to compile human knowledge. It is not a vehicle to make personal opinions become part of human knowledge. In the unusual situation where the opinions of a single individual are important enough to discuss, it is preferable to let other people write about them."
WP:TALK"A talk page is research for the article, and the policies that apply to articles also apply to talk pages. Research and debate should meet the same standards of verification, neutral point of view and no original research."
As you can see, that rule follows directly in the spirit of What Wikipedia is Not. Thus, if you negate that rule, you are negating what Wikipedia is. Wikipedia is not here for you to change it or use original research. There are plenty of other places for that. That rule will never change now matter how many people come in here to protest about it. If talk pages are filled with OR and thats allowed, thats the fault of not enforcing the rule and an admin should be made aware of it and/or bring it to the attention of mediation. Just like people already stabbing each other is not a valid excuse to get rid of anti-stabbing laws, people abusing talk pages is not an excuse to get rid of No Original Research rules. You should know about it before getting into Wikipedia. If you do not like it, why did you bother coming here? SanchiTachi 23:10, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
a personal request for education, or is it an ironic use of rhetorical question in the service of a POV? In either case it's somewhat original. Which is hilariously ironic because you're arguing for NOR. If you find it impossible not to violate the cannons of NOR and NPOV even in your own single one-paragraph defense of them, you've got a real problem. Consider it. And that's my original opinion regarding your comment. S B H arris 23:37, 6 May 2007 (UTC)Just like people already stabbing each other is not a valid excuse to get rid of anti-stabbing laws, people abusing talk pages is not an excuse to get rid of No Original Research rules. You should know about it before getting into Wikipedia. If you do not like it, why did you bother coming here? SanchiTachi 23:10, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
I want to stress this line again: A justification for including a sourced statement in the article is not the same as the statement itself. Read that repeatedly until it sinks in. The justification should be sound, but it should not be held to the same standards as the article addition itself. If someone argues that we include a statement as sourced from the Weekly World News, and we say "No, they're not reputable", are we violating wikipedia policy? Do we actually have to sit and track down sources that say WWN isn't reliable? Haven't checked myself, but it might be hard to find such a source because it's so freaking OBVIOUS that the WWN is utter fantasy. The justification for NOT including the proposed addition, then, is based on our "original research" of knowing that it's pretty unlikely that a source which says a 1,000' tall chicken attacked Paris yesterday can be trusted. -- Lode Runner 00:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Guidelines are just that. The offending statement directly contradicts what we've already established on the policy pages. That the policies are *not* applicable to Talk pages. On that note, I've started a new discussion on the Talk page *guideline* that will hopefully remove the claim that the policies do apply to Talk. Guidelines cannot contradict policy and the fact that this statement is there on the Talk guideline page, doesn't prevent someone from reading the policies and seeing the contradiction. Wjhonson 01:16, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Jayjg is exactly correct. I suggest people see the
Warhammer Wiki Page Discussion to see where Pak and Localzuk wanted to not have to apply the OR rule to the Talk page in order to invalidate actual research used to define how the game defines a term and instead substitute their own definition for said term. Localzuk only wants to redefine the rule so he can win an argument, which means that he is not here for Wikipedia, but only to "win."
SanchiTachi 01:50, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Look, SanchiTachi, here is your argument: "You editted the article itself [though I waited three days]! This automatically renders your proposal null and void, even if you weren't aware of any contradiction at the time, even if you weren't aware that the talk page was not the place to bring it up, even if you say you'll never do it again! Too, late, you fucked up, game over, your proposal is dismissed [because he is apparently the arbiter of wikipedia "credibility"] feel free to leave Wikipedia now." Now, if that just about sums it up, I'll point out that it violates WP:BITE and WP:DICK (normally I wouldn't do this, but it seems as though WP links are the only form of discourse you view as valid) and I'll let everyone else come to their own conclusions.
Feel free to spam my userpage with this nonsense--go right ahead, really, I don't mind. However, it is completely offtopic personal attack and does not belong here. -- Lode Runner 02:32, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Sanchi your attacks are out-of-line. You offend everyone by attempting to beat someone else into accepting your interpretation, instead of convincing them in a rational manner. The rules are not here to pummel and coerce but to instruct. Your approach is not conducive. Wjhonson 03:14, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I do not see the need add so much verbiage to this policy. Policy pages need to be kept simple and to the point. And the way the discussion is being conducted is not encouraging either. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I also think that the dispute is framed incorrectly. The discussion should not be framed around "do we allow OR in talk pages?", as that presuposes that talk pages are what they are not. Talk pages are there 'to discuss the article and not the subject, and to engage other editors in improving the article so that it is better sourced, better worded, and more compliant with the aims of the project. A talk page is not a discussion forum, a place to share our brilliant ideas and opinions on the subject of the article, or to do any other activities unrelated to furthering the aims of Wikipedia. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 03:34, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
So is it possible to post an RFC without subject (since there is no "Wikipedia policy" subject, only science, politics, religion, etc.) ? Or is there a better place to put this? I don't mind a venue change, in fact I would prefer it so that we can get away from this off-topic stuff, but I could use a little help figuring it out. -- Lode Runner 04:01, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
New debate here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_%28policy%29#Original_research_in_talk_pages. Personal attacks (this includes alleged rules violations that are already over, fixed, appologized for and done with) will not be tolerated. -- Lode Runner 05:54, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree that this addition is absolutely faulty. How can you have a talk page without OR??????????!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The important issue is not whether original research lands in the article. The important issue is whether the reader can determine that which is original research and that which isnt. The problem being that once original research is excluded, logic prevents the article from being written. This is because the very first sentence of any article whatsoever must advance a position, and so forth for each sentence thereafter, and for each word of each sentence and so on. This logic must be addressed in this article or the article lacks any logical validity.
I was writing to the article on stature which has oscillated between a strong negative bias against short stature and a milder negative bias against short stature. I had written a section to the article that arguably is OR, but it certainly balanced the article. After, having this section tagged and deleted for being OR it occured to me that NOR is a very dangerous policy.
This is because people read Wikipedia and Wikipedia should not have a negative bias towards short stature. And certainly, in this article the truth is more important than NOR. The argument for the advantages of short stature should be stated in this article, or all bias should be removed. The present policy is dangerous as it serves to reinforce stereotypes.
Further, for some time now there has been reference to height and intelligence suggesting that taller people are smarter. This is backed up by some kind of verified source.
It might be alright to have this illogical OR policy if noone read Wikipedia, but millions do read it. Wikipedia should not maintain this illogical policy that leads to false and unbalanced articles. 01001 00:36, 6 May 2007 (UTC)
I assert that a little OR is sometimes good, and is in the spirit of WP:Ignore all rules. Example: the page on Chess used to assert that 285 million people play chess on the Internet, and the claim was sourced [1]. I wrote on the Talk page:
Some more numbers: Internet Chess Club has 30000 members, about 2500 online at any one time. FICS has a membership of 150000. Playchess.com (part of Chessbase) claims to be the largest, with 5000 members online at any one time, so maybe they've slightly over the 150000 at FICS, if they are it's not by much. The other sites appear to be smaller. I think the total number of online players would struggle to reach 1 million. Yes I know this is WP:Original Research, but the 285 million number is so obviously wrong that sometimes you have to WP:Ignore all rules.
Thankfully common sense prevailed, and my OR overrode the reference. The moral: a little OR is sometimes better than a poor reference. Peter Ballard 01:09, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Everytime you edit you are told "Encyclopedic content must be verifiable". WP:NOR is one of the 5 pillars of wikipedia. It is a hardline policy. WP:IAR is not policy, it is a guideline, a very controversial one at that, and never intended to bypass consensus. Lode Runner, your crusade against the "rules lawyers" is borderline disruptive, especially given your non-consensus edits to WP:NOR to reflect that. This is not in the best interest of the project, and it's not what Jimbo would want, bottom line. If you want to add OR and synthesis, establish your credentials at Citizendium, or take it to an internet forum. Encyclopedias are for SOURCED information, not original research: not in brittanica, not here. Wikipedia is not primary source, and without verification of credentials, it's not a place for publication of new material. Since we don't know who the editors are, it's no different than a bunch of guys meeting at a pub, or a conspiracy theorist in a 'zine or webforum. Once again, WP:NOR prevents all of that. That is why it is one of the fundamental, inviolate pillars of the project. Can you see that the entire concept of wikipedia having ANY credibility hinges upon it? Your crusade against the "rules lawyers" is misguided: you're really crusading against the concept of wikipedia itself, and it's disruptive and dangerous. The blanket accusations such as "the accusers", "rules lawyers", allegations of WP:BITE, etc are disruptive and the resultant unilateral changes to, again, a fundamental policy, border on WP:POINT. You need to chill out and look at this objectively: On the SOLE basis of WP:ILIKEIT and WP:IAR (neither of which are policy), you want to change at least FOUR policies: WP:NOR, WP:V, WP:TALK, WP:RS and a fifth if you include WP:ATT. Does that make ANY sense to you whatsoever? Because to the rest of us, it is ridiculous.
I can sum it up in one sentence: You can't use a single controversial guideline that is not accepted by many people on this project, to overrule no less than FIVE fundamental policies that constitute the very essence of what makes Wikipedia what it is.
I can sum up the remedy in one sentence: Start your own wiki, or go to Citizendium, or publish a blog; all of which places where original research is welcomed -- not here. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 07:41, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
And, taking the direct wording of the IAR page, it says if the rules PREVENT you from improving the encyclopedia, ignore them. OR does not IMPROVE the encyclopedia, and not allowing OR does not PREVENT you from improving it. All that OR does, is lowers the quality of the encyclopedia into that of a webforum, blog, or chatroom, and that's clearly unacceptable. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 09:43, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
[Outdent] Indeed, what guarantees an admin is any kind of "expert"? And what would it matter in this discussion, if they were? Do you think individual expertise per se carries weight on wikipedia? Wrong. Or that an admin's opinions carry more weight than anybody else's, here? Wrong. Please note that WP:ATT generally allows experts to use their own expertise only by quoting from their own works if they have been published in OTHER journals. Admins giving pop-off ex cathedra opinions here for the first time, certainly would violate WP:ATT if it applied universally. Here's an explicit violation from the NOR section of WP:ATT: "Original research" is anything that
introduces an analysis, synthesis, explanation or interpretation of published facts, opinions, or arguments that advances a point that cannot be attributed to a reliable source who has published the material in relation to the topic of the article.
Which is what we have here, since admins are not reliable sources who have published this stuff outside Wikipedia. You think they are? S B H arris 19:12, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Why are we talking about admins? What does that have anything to do with OR or not? Admin functions have nothing to do with editing, which is what OR/NOR is involving. ⇒ SWATJester Denny Crane. 21:24, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
A discussion is going on here about whether it would be justifiable for a non-specialist Wikipedian to create an 'artist's impression' of an object that is so far invisible (the object in question is the distant planet Gliese 581 c), or whether the only acceptable 'impression' would be something produced by a noted scientist, or at least produced under the aegis of a scientific organization, such as NASA. Some users believe that the policy on images means that the non-specialist Wikipedian is welcome to go ahead. Others (including moi) think this would open the floodgates to rubbishy images with no scientific backup. Does anyone here hae any views on this? Cop 633 01:43, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
The secondary source paragraph has a sentence that reads "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, verifiable, published secondary sources." The presence of the word "verifiable," as an adjective modfying "sources," is confusing and I believe in error. This is going to get semantic, but: WP:V applies to the content of WP articles, not to the sources for that content. The WP article has to be reliably sourced, of course, but that is enough; we don't have to in turn be able to verify the source (to do so for a newspaper article, for example, I think we would need access to the reporter's notes, or the article editing process). I propose removing that one word. Comments? UnitedStatesian 05:21, 8 May 2007 (UTC)
I think there would be a wiki to publish original research and ideas. I imagine the wiki was once upon a time... ;) an original idea. If it would be refussed, I (and you ) couldn´t be reading and/or writting these lines-- 62.87.96.65 13:57, 13 May 2007 (UTC)
If I understand this proposed text correctly it says that editors may compile lists that don't appear as such in any source. I would suggest that this isn't even synthesis, and that it is allowable so long as it is properly labelled and chosen. In other words it isn't an exemption, it's an already allowed use under OR. This edit would just clarify that fact. I have seen instances in the past where editors have compiled facts to cause readers draw unusual conclusions, and that is inherently OR. But it doesn't much matter whether those facts are arranged in a list or in prose. With this proposal, if I read it orrectly, it would be permissiable to compile a "Major policy positions" section, but it would not require us to permit a POV compilation like "Evidence of guilt" if there weren't already a source for it. So again, I don't see any actual change from current policy in that aspect either, just another clarification. Is there any way in which this would alter existing practice? ·:· Will Beback ·:· 06:38, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
You combine facts from seperate materials in order to create a single unified article. That's synthesis, per a basic dictionary definition - yet every single featured article does it. This is the problem. WilyD 17:14, 22 May 2007 (UTC)syn·the·sis: the combining of the constituent elements of separate material or abstract entities into a single or unified entity
WP:NPOV states that facts should be allowed to speak for themselves, which to me means that any qualification or explanation of them by an editor not citing a source is original research because the qualification/explanation didn't appear in the source. This is an illustration of why I think it is original research to add perspective not in the source.
(X = criminals)
|
(Y = people referred to as)(Z = people referred to as criminals)
|
I'd suggest finding a source to assert Y, but that might be WP:SYN.
Situation | Says | 2nd valid source says | Wikipedia says | Final | WP:OR? |
---|---|---|---|---|---|
3. A WP:V, WP:RS source | X | Y | X + Y | Z | Probably |
Anynobody 06:50, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) could you explain what you don't understand so I could try to clarify. "Uh?" doesn't really explain much. Anynobody 01:09, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Where did Jimmy Wales say a "novel narrative or historical interpretation"? I want to put {{fact}} after that... Bkkbrad 09:20, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Hey fellow editors: please help me edit this new essay: Wikipedia:It's ok to use your brain. I think it applies to more than this policy. MPS 03:22, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
OK, here's an example of "using my brain" and that example is the reason I'm even reading this page. In the article Curveball (informant) I inserted a section that stated that Curveball's statements demonstrated internal inconsistency and that the internal inconsistency indicated he was a poseur. Curveball claimed to be a chemical engineer yet nothing that appeared to be derived from the intelligence provided by Curveball, as seen in the CIA/DIA white paper, showed any sign of having been written by anyone with engineering training.
So my thought process was: IF Curveball provided information that was not like the information you would reasonably expect an engineer (in particular a chemical engineer) to present when describing a piece of equipment for which he claimed he had been trained to operate THEN Curveball was lying about being a chemical engineer, and was thus visibly a liar.
That section stood for many months and then it was removed anonymously. I restored it and was then told that whether or not it was accurate was beside the point, it was "original research." I then deleted it myself, following a strict interpretation of NOR.
But this is very disturbing. Other than in tightly-controlled countries (e.g., USSR) I don't know of any encyclopedias that forbade thought or the products of thought.
More properly I could have enumerated the items attributed to Curveball in the CIA/DIA white paper that lacked any glimmer of engineering intelligence and then could have documented what is is that chemical engineers concern themselves with. Even then it appears that a strict reading of "no original research" forbids my conclusion. If nobody has published the conclusion then, it seems, Wikipedia forbids its appearance, no matter how simple the logic.
This is weird in a way because the white paper (and the discussion of that piece of intelligence reporting and all Iraq-war intelligence reporting) appear to follow, even though they are not a part of Wikipedia, the NOR rule. In fact the reason I put in the "internal inconsistency" section in the first place was as a protest against that idiotic approach. It's absurd for the CIA to limit it's conclusions to Wikipedia-style reporting of what CIA sources supply. Their job is expressly to synthesize from the raw intelligence, is it not? Yet all the discussions I've seen center on whether or not the intelligence agencies had been told Curveball was unreliable (or on whether or not that very clear message had gotten through.) What he said wasn't what an engineer would say. Is it conceivable that the CIA neither employs nor consults chemical engineers on chemical engineering issues? Wouldn't any chemical engineer instantly conclude "this guy sure must have gone to a bad engineering school: he doesn't know what engineering is about"? (It is lunacy if they do not employ or consult suitable professionals.)
In the discussion page for Curveball (informant) a describe a report by a mythical self-proclaimed automotive engineer in which the person demonstrates he doesn't recognize an engine block and spark plugs. Whether or not it's allowed to reach the conclusion "he's a liar" in Wikipedia wouldn't the CIA have to reach that conclusion, if he were making such a report to them?
A simpler example is in the greenhouse gas discussion. I state there that a 1 degree Celsius change in the average temperature of the earth is less than a 0.4% change. But to do so I had to perform the division 1/(273 + 15) That computation seems, by the NOR policy, to be forbidden. Yet I would like to contend that the deniers are foolish in claiming that it is not possible for the observed change in the concentration of atmospheric CO2 to cause a change in average temperature of less than 0.4%. It's important and significant to show the relative magnitude of the change and every piece of that calculation can be tied to data. Can I make the calculation in Wikipedia or can I not? Are there not many items of general education that are (or should be) always available for use in any analysis, discussion, or presentation? Minasbeede 04:29, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I did remove the section myself.
But how about the George Washington autograph that's written in ball point ink (a sort of classic example of self-contradictory information)? It appears that in Wikipedia one must stand mute, even though one knows George Washington was long dead before ball point pens were invented, unless one can find a published statement that a written item that purports to be from some time before ball point pens were invented is a forgery or fake if it is in fact written in ball point ink. Is it actually necessary to be able to cite a prior identification of the self-contradictory nature of a statement to mention that self-contradiction in an article? That something is self-disproviItalic textng isn't enough in itself, it has to have been published, too?
Of course my frustration isn't really with Wikipedia, it is with that whole world in which nobody has published that Curveball's lay language and approach mark him as a non-engineer. As he claims to be an engineer and he reveals himself not to be one he is clearly a liar. Whether or not word got to the analysts at the CIA they had the proof he was a liar in the raw intelligence from Curveball they received. After the fact we know that to be true (I can say that in Wikipedia.) I think Wikipedia is hobbled by too tight application of the "no original research" standard but my actual frustration is the apparent prevalence of that same standard in he real world. Logic is forbidden, all that the press and media can do is report what people say. That's wrong. It's also not the nature of the Encyclopedia Britannica over the years. But is worth noting that Wikipedia is hobbled by over-intense enforcement of NOR, with "hobbled" implying harm to it.
I do recognize that this is related, in a way, to the standard for a patent. A patent is valid if what it discloses is not obvious to someone skilled in the art prior to seeing the patent. I lose here. Obviously the dearth of published statements that Curveball's non-engineering language show him to not be an engineer demonstrates that those "skilled in the art" have not, on their own, comprehended this fact. That's why I removed the section.
Does a particular form of syllogism have to be referenced if it is used in a Wikipedia article or does the syllogism have status above the rules and principles of Wikipedia as part of the set of valid human reasoning skills?
Minasbeede 04:14, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
Agreed. Thanks. It is still true that forbidding logical conclusions is absurd. To me the danger inherent in original research is that (for the simplest syllogism) the major or minor premise could be concocted. That's where sourcing is necessary: for the premises.
Modern sophists create untrue premises (or engage in flawed logic, such as equating A implies B with B implies A.) It's easy to find sources for such sophistry, but it's invalid.
Minasbeede 14:41, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
User:SanchiTachi is also trying to introduce his original research and synthesis into the Shane Ruttle Martinez article (see Talk:Shane Ruttle Martinez). If there's an ongoing problem with this user and OR violations then some action should be taken against him. Black as pitch 18:34, 23 May 2007 (UTC)
Could there be an exception to the OR policy for purely mathematical proofs, that can *not* be refuted in any way? (Assuming of course the proof is sufficiently readable). Herve661 06:07, 24 May 2007 (UTC)
I have to explain better what I mean. I am doing mathematics. There are many (eg geometrical) properties that can be demonstrated in an elegant way that I can think up. Many people may have already thought about it but didn't care to publish, and I won't get the Nobel prize for this. I would not have any chance to get it published either because it is kind of trivia things. Now, these proofs need not be complex at all and may be verified by almost any people (like they would verify the wordings in an article about litterature, spelling etc.) who is writing the article. Can that be put on a wikipedia article? Herve661 01:40, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
That seems to throw the baby out with the bathwater. To prevent misuse or error a huge category of discourse is forbidden.
I'd certainly be comfortable with any but the most trivial or transparent mathematical proofs being excluded. Note too that the request was for 2-3 line proofs to be allowed, not for a blanket acceptance of all mathematical proofs. At that level the proofs are a means of making an exposition clearer or more communicative. That would seem to be a goal of Wikipedia, whether or not it is explicitly expressed anywhere. If "clearer or more communicative" refutes the position advanced by some that doesn't make it wrong, does it? If the refutation is on solid ground, is impeccable, it would seem it does exactly what ought to be done, if truth is the goal.
The patent office, I think, has a list of categories of invention it will not ever consider, perpetual motion machines being an example. I see no problem with Wikipedia refusing to accept anything that claims to disprove accepted science nor even with refusing to accept anything that claims to disprove controversial science. That belongs elsewhere. Properly it should appear, if it has any merit, in a refereed scientific journal. If not let it appear on kook web sites where it fits.
It is almost certain that even then judgment will be required and disagreement might arise. Well, thats life. If you relegate Wikipedia to some imaginary world where everything fits nicely then you very clearly have made Wikipedia a vehicle for fantasy - the exact opposite, it would seem, of what was originally intended.
Minasbeede 20:04, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
If I say something. Then a news story reports it, how should I behave on the talk page of the article? Mathiastck 00:05, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
So let me get this straight...
In order to mention personal or special knowledge, one has to cite a source, even if the only source in the world is themselves. But in order for someone to cite their own source, it must be published in a "reliable publication", be it a book, journal, magazine, periodical, newspaper or even a popular website. Yet, none of these have been proven to be 100% reliable credible publications, just that the author had enough money or media interest at the time to have their voice heard.
To what extent is it really necessary to cite a source, then, I ask, especially if the information is a first-hand account. Would you scrub an article because it contained information provided by the sole surviving witness of a plane crash? What if George Bush himself came to write about his foreign policies? Is this any different from someone writing about their junior high school's band camp experience?
I can appreciate that Wikipedia strives to present the most factual and neutral information possible, but it seems rather insulting to suggest that Wikipedia Authors are just not qualified to make original factual statements by themselves. That's reserved for someone with a PhD, or a weekly column in the Tribune. -- Agvulpine 06:41, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
Part of the problem I see is that many things are at the "duh" level. It appears Wikipedia forbids applying simple logic to any set of facts.
As far as firsthand knowledge goes, I know from personal experience that the reaction used on the trailers in Iraq (claimed in a CIA/DIA white paper to be for the culture of biological WMD) to make hydrogen generates a lot of heat. As a scientist I know that the heat generated is not unique to my experience and has to be documented. When I read that the trailers have a cooling unit I know from personal experience that the cooling unit is an appropriate component on a hydrogen generation system so I likewise know that spinning the presence of that cooling unit to be evidence of use of the trailers for biological WMD culture is bogus. It flies in the face of fact. that the reaction used to generate hydrogen generates heat should be common knowledge among scientists with expertise in the field. This matters. If the CIA/DIA white paper was written in ignorance of the reaction used to generate hydrogen then that in itself is a strong condemnation of that white paper and of its authors. If the authors knew of the heat from the reaction their failure to disclose that fact proves their bias toward deceit. Nowhere in that is my personal knowledge critical: the reaction has been known for at least a century and anyone who performs the reaction will know of the heat. The real essence of my "personal knowledge" of the heat generated is that anyone doing the reaction should be aware of the heat. I"m merely a stand-in for "anyone" in this regard.
Minasbeede 14:00, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
When it comes to requiring a citation for the statement that the reaction to generate hydrogen generates heat I say "right on." It's possible, do it and be done with it.
When it comes to simple logic and reasoning I think you're wrong: they are universal. There is misuse of logic and there is illogic but neither of these are properly described as different editors concluding different things (from the same evidence), assuming the different editors are honest. (It's also probably correct to state that all or nearly all methods of misusing logic have been characterized.) "Misuse of logic" includes reliance on false premises. Once the false premise is allowed then logic can lead to improper conclusions. I'd think the Wikipedia guns should be trained on false premises, not on logic.
Requiring sourcing doesn't solve the real problem: you have to rely on "reliable" sources, and reliability is the heart of the problem. Some cite al Qaeda as though it is a reliable source (when it suits the agenda of the one making the citation - if not in Wikipedia, other places.) Al Qaeda has its own agenda. Is it a reliable source, 100% accurate in what it says? I am extremely dubious.
There is a plethora of "think tanks" with agendas. Relying on them for accurate statements about the matters that are the subject matter of their agendas seems at least as unreliable as allowing actual "original research." You can rely on what think tanks say as indicating what they say. I doubt you can rely on what they say as reliably indicating what they think and am even more doubtful that you can rely on what they say to meet reasonable standards of truth.
Dealing with disputed material becomes a battle over the reliability of sources. While it seems to be cut-and-dried to insist on the Wikipedia rules isn't the real effect one of turning discussions that should be about truth into arguments about the applicability of the rules and about whether cited sources are or are not reliable? It seems to me that what you have left when you exclude everything that Wikipedia would have be excluded isn't an encyclopedia, it's a compendium of lukewarm statements about "safe" ideas. I'm not saying that Wikipedia cannot be precisely that (it can, if that's the desire or those in control), I'm more asking if that is the real goal. There's also the implied question of whether I am seeing things properly.
Minasbeede 23:21, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
In several discussions I encountered two conflicting views on WP:OR/ WP:SYNTH. People repeatedly and on several articles cite:
However, there are cases in which rigidly insisting on applying this policy would ignore common sense and another part of that policy:
Herein lies this request for clarification. As I understand it editors should not advance only 'one of many conlusions. Yet what do we do when we are confronted with only one possible conclusion making bias, religious background, political persuasion, or whatever, totally irrelevant? Take these examples:
Example A
Can we say "all dogs are quadrupeds?" No, for us to say that we need a WP:RS saying that.
Example B
Can we say Pete stole "five apples?" No, we need RS saying that. But even then, some argue, we need a source linking 2+3 to this particular example. Even if we find a textbook saying 2+3=5, we cannot simply use that to say Pete stole five apples.
Example C
You guessed it, we cannot say "Pete went to France," et cetera.
Example D
Again we are not allowed to say "Pete drove 160 km/h."
Clearly this is an overly strict interpretation of policy leading to unreaasonable and silly objections (ignoring the fact this in no way violates "that builds a particular case favored by the editor") that defy all logic. My question is do we disallow synthesis even when there is only one possible conclusion? Remember, to be consistent we are then prohibited from changing mph into km/h and off adding 2+3. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 15:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
To be fair, this mainly relates to controversial topics and the mph is not the problem. Let me ask your opinion on a current debate:
My thinking is, since the MCA rewrote the WCA retroactively (the very definition of ex post facto law) it therefore is an ex post facto law. In this case another editor objects. To me it is difficult to see how any law that can be defined as retroactively rewritng cannot be an ex post facto law. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 16:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Although one situation is resolved I still am interested in changing policy in such a way that it either allows unambiguous synthesis (such as I described above) or be strictly enforced which means disallowing even things like adding 2+3. I understand and subscribe to the idea of building consensus. However, confronted with the same discussion time and time again I do feel we need to settle this by mentioning it in policy. Otherwise we keep rehashing this debate over and over again. Again I would like to ask how we can get policy to change in such a way that common sense is not entirely dismissed. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 00:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Heck, unless you find a source for it you can't even properly say all the James Bond books were originally written in English. That's absurd, but if it hasn't been published anywhere you can't say it in Wikipedia. Nor could you legitimately copy Lincoln's Gettysburg Address (nor anything else) into Microsoft Word and then publish the word count for it. That would be original research, even though anyone who wishes can count the words and verify that what you have said is true.
Minasbeede 02:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
We're told:
Morenoodles 08:36, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
I've never seen "no original research" used in anything but a heated discussion over an edit war, where one user disagrees with another and uses it to undermine the validity of what the other person is trying to say. Often times it's justified, but sometimes it isn't. I understand the need to have a policy on original research, but there doesn't seem to be a very clear distinction between "original research" and POV. A user might add in an interpretation of something that someone else doesn't agree with, but isn't original research. I see two problems: 1) WP:OR is used (seemingly) more for POV bashing than its actual purpose, and 2) Often times published works based on original research or very undersourced claims are added in as sources, and aren't called attention to as unreliable sources. As of now, WP:OR applies to original research of wikipedians. I think unreliable sources would be weeded out more easily if added to WP:OR, because instead of beating around the bush in the talk page, arguing over content from a questionable source, a user could just refer to WP:OR and make their position on the source immediately clear. As we all know, arguing between editors is the biggest difficulty in trying to improve wikipedia, so a procedure for cutting down on arguing is probably warranted. 74.75.234.252 17:59, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Can people more familiar with this policy look at this? The HDI for the EU was basically calculated by another editor as the weighted average of the HDIs of the member states. A simple weighted average doesn't work because of the logarithm term. Also, it is unclear which population figures were used and may not be the same ones that the UN uses. Thanks. -- Polaron | Talk 12:45, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Editors often make the mistake of thinking that if A is published by a reliable source, and B is published by a reliable source, then A and B can be joined together in an article to advance position C. However, this would be an example of a new synthesis of published material serving to advance a position, and as such it would constitute original research
I take this to mean that asserting unfounded relationships is the problem. I do not take this to mean that an article on a topic that applies to diverse events is therefore verboten. The mere creation an article on a topic does not imply an assertion of relationship to its content other than the application of the topic to the contents.
Does having an article on a topic that can be applied to diverse subjects imply synthesis? I would think that to violate WP:SYN, the synthesis i.e. assertion of relationships would have to be explicit. - Keith D. Tyler ¶ ( AMA) 19:44, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
In several discussions I encountered two conflicting views on WP:OR/ WP:SYNTH. People repeatedly and on several articles cite:
However, there are cases in which rigidly insisting on applying this policy would ignore common sense and another part of that policy:
Herein lies this request for clarification. As I understand it editors should not advance only 'one of many conlusions. Yet what do we do when we are confronted with only one possible conclusion making bias, religious background, political persuasion, or whatever, totally irrelevant? Take these examples:
Example A
Can we say "all dogs are quadrupeds?" No, for us to say that we need a WP:RS saying that.
Example B
Can we say Pete stole "five apples?" No, we need RS saying that. But even then, some argue, we need a source linking 2+3 to this particular example. Even if we find a textbook saying 2+3=5, we cannot simply use that to say Pete stole five apples.
Example C
You guessed it, we cannot say "Pete went to France," et cetera.
Example D
Again we are not allowed to say "Pete drove 160 km/h."
Clearly this is an overly strict interpretation of policy leading to unreaasonable and silly objections (ignoring the fact this in no way violates "that builds a particular case favored by the editor") that defy all logic. My question is do we disallow synthesis even when there is only one possible conclusion? Remember, to be consistent we are then prohibited from changing mph into km/h and off adding 2+3. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 15:46, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
To be fair, this mainly relates to controversial topics and the mph is not the problem. Let me ask your opinion on a current debate:
My thinking is, since the MCA rewrote the WCA retroactively (the very definition of ex post facto law) it therefore is an ex post facto law. In this case another editor objects. To me it is difficult to see how any law that can be defined as retroactively rewritng cannot be an ex post facto law. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 16:19, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
User:Jayjg, an administrator for the past three years, and the wikipedia's 46th most prolific editor, performed this edit, with the edit summary, "(→Writings - remove original research, per talk)" — even though they had not engaged in any discussion on the talk page.
As best I can understand from an earlier explanation on Talk:David Frum, the other party considers collating the names of nine captives Frum had written about, using only their ID numbers, is considered WP:OR.
Cheers! Geo Swan 11:46, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
Although one situation is resolved I still am interested in changing policy in such a way that it either allows unambiguous synthesis (such as I described above) or be strictly enforced which means disallowing even things like adding 2+3. I understand and subscribe to the idea of building consensus. However, confronted with the same discussion time and time again I do feel we need to settle this by mentioning it in policy. Otherwise we keep rehashing this debate over and over again. Again I would like to ask how we can get policy to change in such a way that common sense is not entirely dismissed. Nomen Nescio Gnothi seauton 00:10, 31 May 2007 (UTC)
Heck, unless you find a source for it you can't even properly say all the James Bond books were originally written in English. That's absurd, but if it hasn't been published anywhere you can't say it in Wikipedia. Nor could you legitimately copy Lincoln's Gettysburg Address (nor anything else) into Microsoft Word and then publish the word count for it. That would be original research, even though anyone who wishes can count the words and verify that what you have said is true.
Minasbeede 02:46, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Section Verifiability (V) needs clarification, who assesses the reliability of a source. I've experienced one such discussion, where one part claimed that X was an "disreputable" source, but I deemed that X was reputable, but that it contained less reliable information for cataloguing purposes. "Reputable publisher" is not a good criterion, the central point is whether a source can be used for citations, and what import such a citation has for the discourse of an article. Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 10:00, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Original research here: User:Rursus/NPOV T. (Giggering evilly) Said: Rursus ☺ ★ 10:53, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
Before I go to an RfC, I thought I would try here first. I am having (another) disagreement with User:Gamaliel on the Jeff Gannon article. In the section on White House visitor logs, an assertion is made that the logs make it appear that Gannon spent the night at the White House. A published reliable source has since been provided that does not mention Gannon by name, but was published around the same time that Gannon started first visiting the White House. The source shows that at that time, there were known problems with the Secret Service's logging system, which resulted in visitors being logged out of the WH 12 hours after they entered if they failed to swipe their pass on the way out. The source is published here and [http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=31154 here], and is referred to by a third party here. Gamaliel contends that using this source is original research, since it does not mention Gannon, and was published several days before he started visiting the WH (making it out of date info), and any linking of this to Gannon is a synthesis. It is my contention that this is "source-based" research, and that since the section it is being used in is on the topic of White House records, that this source is relevant to the discussion. It is not creating a link or synthesis to Gannon, it is commenting further on and providing context to the topic of the White House visitor logging system. If what Gamaliel is asserting is correct, then the larger implication is that any reliable source that is used in an article, and does not specifically mention that subject in the source, is to be considered OR and removed. Is that really what WP:OR means? - Crockspot 17:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)
It is quite obvious that the Wikipedia policy is broken. The issue is how to fix it. After lurking here and contributing for some time, I do not think it likely that this discussion page can solve the problem. 01001 05:20, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
? 01001 00:05, 11 June 2007 (UTC)
I have asked this question because I would like to know if Wikipedia policy is fixed. Is there no hope for improvement? Or is there some road, some protocol, for improving policy? 01001 04:08, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
Well if we looked at the archives for this article, a compelling case for change has already been made. The fact that a verified source regarding height and intelligence (and basically going unrefuted) is still in the stature article proves at least to me that the wikipedia policy is broken. This is just one example of broken Wikipedia policy that I know has existed for some time. I could easily find many more problems in articles, although it would be harder to find their age.
There is another problem regarding research. Who in their right mind is going to do careful research for Wikipedia when someone else can come along and delete it? 01001 00:19, 13 June 2007 (UTC)
Do you suggest an annotated version of wikipedia policies? MrMurph101 20:45, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
let's say for the sake of argument that I was a freelance reporter for various news outlets. I witnessed some news and turned in a story to the New York Times. They publish the story. is this the only way that it can then be offered to Wikipedia? Meaning, if for instance no outlets did pick up my story, then you guys would not accept my story on your site? How is a story published in the New York times NOT original research? I mean, presumably a person researched a story, and then th Times published it, right? Why does that next little step of something being published make it a "fact" in Wikipedia's eyes? Again I'm talking about hard news, not opinions or theories. For instance I see a major news event happen with my own eyes in person. Why is this not acceptable to Wikipedia? Just wanting some clarification on this, because it seems to me that every single line of text on this site is original research--or was at one point--so it seems odd that original research is listed as unapproved content. if by origignal research wikipedia is talking about opinions, then I totally get it. But if they are talking about facts, then I don't get it. Thanks!—Preceding unsigned comment added by Katherinewelles ( talk • contribs)
The following issue has been raised before, but I'm mentioning it again as I have never seen a satisfactory answer.
The "Smith/Jones" example says:
I don't think the Chicago Manual of Style contains any passage which says that it "requires citation of the source actually consulted""plagiarism is defined as using a source's information, ideas, words, or structure without citing them", or anything that could be construed as that, and that the example is misleading. Can anyone provide a specific page reference to the Chicago manual of Style? If not, I think it is misleading to attribute this to the manual. Does anyone disagree and think the existing wording should stay, with specific reasons? Personally, I don't think it's OK to give a misleading reference to a source, even in an example (and especially not in an example on a policy page like this which is specifically about remaining true to sources).
Enchanter 00:20, 15 June 2007 (UTC) Modified after rechecking source
Enchanter 22:15, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
After rechecking the source I'm pretty convinced that the example misattributes the definition of plagiarism to the CMS (if anyone wants to double check, you can sign up easily for a free trial at chicagomanualofstyle.org).
I proposed that the example is removed unless and until this problem is fixed. The example has a number of other problems too (it is unclear for the casual reader, and in my view does not hang together logically if you follow it through carefully). The example could be modified or replaced by another example, and suggestions would be welcome. But leaving it in its current unclear and misleading state, which it has been in for months, is in my view just not acceptable. For the moment having no example at all would be better than having one which is just embarassingly bad. Enchanter 12:21, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The removal of the example has been reverted by SlimVirgin, and I have now reverted it back.
Slimvirgin - please read the above, which I referred to in my edit comment. I asked very specifically for a cite to the definition of plagiarism that the policy page claims is contained in the Chicago Manual. This is a citation that you should be able to give, because you were the editor who originally wrote the example. You have not provide a direct page or section reference to the manual, even though you were the original editor who added the material, and even though the manual is easily available online, and easy to search.
If you cannot provide a citation, please give your reasons why you believe that it is not important that the source is used correctly in this instance (although see comments on "irony" above). I remind you that the example is supposed to be illustrating synthesis of "published material", not "hypothetical material" or "wildly misrepresented material". In my view, misrepresenting the CMS on a Wikipedia policy page is embarassing, and we should be ashamed of it and correct it.
I am frankly disappointed by your editing behaviour here - you have made very similar reverts before, and you did not respond when I asked for your reasons on the talk page and your user talk page. This is especially so because you are normally an editor who, in my experience, sticks closely to sources and is willing to debate issues. Further to Ken's comment above, I think you need to ask yourself honestly whether you have got too attached to this example because it was used to win an editing argument that you personally were involved with. Bringing editing arguments from controversial pages onto policy pages is, in my view, bad practice. In this instance, it led to this page being protected for weeks while a number of disruptive editors with no close interest in improving Wikipedia policy argued the issue. The outcome was an example that is incoherent, misleadingly sourced, and that hasn't been subject to enough reasoned scrutiny and debate. Enchanter 21:29, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) Enchanter, please stay focused on the message, not the messenger, and let's not look for ulterior motives. The point is that there are a lot of cases where well meaning editors fall into WP:SYNT traps, by not realizing that providing sources is not a cure-all for OR. This real-life example is important, because it shows a real situation that real editors misunderstood. Whether the CMOS defines plagiarism one way or another is immaterial here - the point is that unless a source specifically mentions the subject in question, we cannot as editors create an argument as is being done here, sourced or not. You seem to be so hung up on the specific CMOS definition of plagiarism that you are missing the more general point that it doesn't matter how it defines it - it may not be used, period. Crum375 23:05, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
FWIW, I'll risk sticking my head above the parapet, I simply don't get the point that is trying to be made on the main page, and the conversational style of the language used is out of step with the normal language. I do think I understand the concept, which makes the example doubly problematic. In terms of this argument here, I find Enchanter's logic clear and obvious as to the problem with the example (lots of different ways of trying to point out the example is not very good). The point of using a synthetic example is that it is impersonal and can be engineered to make the point clearly: people have been doing this for a good few thousand years (I'll avoid citing the bible and Aesop's fables), so I would not be so quick to devalue it as a poorer technique for getting a point across. Spenny 00:39, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I've removed the Smith/Jones example again, as I do not think there has been a satisfactory argument why it should remain. To reiterate, the example falsely claims that the Chicago Manual Style contains a certain definition of plagiarism, whereas in reality it contains no such definition. In my view, misquoting or misattributing sources is to be vigorously discouraged on Wikipedia, and there is no excuse for doing it on a policy page.
The argument has been made by SlimVirgin that the example is a "real" example lifted from a Wikipedia policy page, and that the misquoting is irrelevant. I think this would be a weak argument even if the example was real. But in fact, the original example it is based on does not misquote the Chicago manual (although it is confusingly written and easy to misinterpret). The misquoting of the manual was introduced by SlimVirgin when she rewrote the example several months after she had added it. The argument that we need to misquote the CMS because it is a "real" example does not stand up to scrutiny. Enchanter 19:52, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm disappointed in the edit-warring. I've been tinkering with coming up with an alternative example, and I have to say, the more I do, I think the less relevant synthesis is as a concept. It seems to me that it is a complicated word to give a special case of OR, the case being OR based on cited (or well known) material. This seems to me to be all about defending a concept that doesn't really need to exist, as it is simply a clarification that any (controversial) statement needs to be tested in its own right, not just by testing the underlying facts. I did come up with a list of criteria for an example beauty-contest, such as: don't have examples with concepts that the wider public might not be comfortable with; not all users are graduates, use simple language; and don't use examples discussing related issues at the same time (are we supposed to be understanding plagiarism or synthesis?), but the stumbling block I had was coming up with an example that differentiated in any worthwhile way between general OR and special case Synthesis. When I thought I had, I couldn't see what was to be gained from it. I think we are really dealing with Wiki-Jargon, but I'd be happy if someone can give me another clear example of why I should worry about synth over OR Spenny 23:32, 19 June 2007 (UTC)
I again propose that the example is deleted, because the issues detailed above (i.e. that it misrepresents sources, misrepresents the case that it is based on, that it is not properly explained, and that it is not logically sound). This is because these issues have still not been addressed. Does anyone have any comments or objections? If anyone thinks the example should stay, please address the points above and explain the logic of the example in detail, so that others can assess whether the explanation is valid. Enchanter 21:01, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
To resummarise the above points as I see them:
I think the problems above are too fundamental to be fixed with modifications to the example, and in my view this complicated and controversial case is a bad case study to use. I would support exploring ways of improving the policy to explain it more clearly - perhaps including alternative examples. In the meantime, I again propose that the example is removed, as it was reverted without any of these issues being addressed. Again, if anyone thinks the example should stay, please give specific reasons. If I am right about the above, I think there is a compelling case for it to be removed - and if I am wrong, someone ought to be able to explain why. Enchanter 00:05, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
Not that I know anything, but to me Enchanter's point seems fairly straightforward, and just because the example is on a page that most people would not see does not mean that it should not use a correct quote or attribute it to the correct source. To put it another way SlimVirgin/Crum375, if you break a law, but you don't do it in a public place or no one sees you do it, does that still make it acceptable? Perhaps, and I'm not sure if this is how it's done at wikipedia, SlimVirgin/Crum375 should not have authority over this piece/decision since if they wrote it, and as someone pointed out, are attached to it, it would seem to be a clear conflict of interest. 24.19.42.84 09:21, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
Sorry, the example with the Chigago manual of style is completely unfounded. Please delete it. -- 62.134.230.98 08:13, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Every encyclopedia article MUST contain some degree of original research and synthesis, otherwise it is not an encyclopedic article. The sources of these obvious arguments cannot be published because it is too specific and obvious to publish. However, these arguments are removed, despite its amazing obviousness. It just take one user who believe that it is original research to remove the argument. Even it is extremely obvious, that user that reverted think it is not obvious, since at least someone will disagree out of the billions of users in wikipedia.
Ironically, some more obvious WP:OR arguments are removed but less obvious WP:OR arguments are not being removed. These less obvious WP:OR arguments that are not removed are usually led by an emotional attachment such as a glittering generality. These statements are generally accepted by everyone, so the original research in the argument is also assumed true.
Also, intuitive WP:OR statements, whether true or not, are less likely to be removed than the more " paradoxical" WP:OR statements (even when the more paradoxical WP:OR statements are MUCH more obvious than the intuitive statements).
Even if a statement is a perfectly rational and magnificently obvious WP:OR statement, some less-intelligent user, out of billions wikipedia users, will view the statement as paradoxical and see it as original research and will remove it. It is unfair to the less obvious original research statement based on glittering generalities, etc..
Those that have low analytical skills will see some perfectly rational statements as original research.
These statements may be extremely obvious to experts in the field but the person with low analytical skills will consider it as original research.
Unfreeride 01:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
The following quotes are taken from the WP:POV article, pointing out how they explicitly invite violation of WP:SYN and thus WP:NOR. Thus, somebody needs to point out that WP:NOR cannot be upheld at every level in an article, or else this encyclopedia would consist of nothing but direct quotations and nothing else (as has been pointed out, repeatedly by others, alas so no avail). And that, futhermore, WP:NPOV is meant to be a global, not a local policy, because obviously POV's need to be summarized FIRST in order to get to a global NPOV perspective in any article. WP:SYN admits this. Again, quoting from WP:SYN, with my comments afterward:
Debates are described, represented, and characterized, but not engaged in. Background is provided on who believes what and why, and which view is more popular.
Detailed articles might also contain the mutual evaluations of each viewpoint, but studiously refrain from stating which is better.
One can think of unbiased writing as the fair, analytical description of all relevant sides of a debate. When bias towards one particular point of view can be detected, the article needs to be fixed.
SUMMARY COMMENT: The big problem here is that Wikipedia doesn't really know what it wants, or isn't really specific about saying it. It calls for local systhesis of various sources to come up with "fair analytical description" of various sides of a debate, assuming that NOPV will be upheld after all that is done. And so it will, globally. But one cannot do the local synthesis required to summarize any particlar POV in a debate, without doing sythetic work, as the above instructions themselves admit.
So, O Wikipedia: either admit that your instructions here are in violation of other WP polities, or else admit that the NPOV and NOR policies need to be re-written, because they are really meant only to be applied GLOBALLY in search of a global NPOV, while needing to be violated on the local level (subarticle level), in order to generate syntheses of the various POV "debate sides," which go into the making of an overall NPOV article. S B H arris 22:15, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
If this is unclear my underlying message is that SYN, as it exists and enforced, seems to be a detriment to encyclopedic quality. Logic is not a reliable source as far as Wikipedia is concerned (uh-oh, I have no source for that.) If I read in source A that "all men are mortal" and in source B that "Socrates is a mortal" I am not, in Wikipedia, permitted to conclude that if the messages from A and from B are both correct then "Socrates is a mortal."
Minasbeede 17:54, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
So far as I can see, a POV is advanced every time you state it, followed by enumeration of reputable scholars who agree with it. That is "advancement by enumeration." It's impossible to avoid, but it violates SYN, and yet it is also expected, which means we're in a quandary. Here's a favorite quote of mine: from NOR: It is not the responsibility of any one editor to research all points of view. But when incorporating research into an article, it is important that editors situate the research; that is, provide contextual information about the point of view, indicating how prevalent the position is, and whether it is held by a majority or minority. <Laugh> Is the editor supposed to do that HIMSELF?? (HERSELF??). And just how are they supposed to do THAT, given the guidelines?? Tell me what I'm missing.
As for your other point, let me suggest to you that it's extraordinarly difficult to find appropriate "reputable source" (and just what that is, and why it should be what it is, is a separate argument), for various and all POVs. If you disagree, cite me 3 random Wikipedia "featured articles" and I will bet you I can find at least one NOR violation (i.e., POV synthesis without a "reputable" primary or secondary cite) in every one of them. Jimbo, for his part, seems to repeatedly confuse verifiable sources with reputable sources (he thinks newspapers are reputable, yuk, yuk). But a sub-issue is the fact that "obvious" and widely held POV's are often not to be found in secondary sources, which (I will observe) don't make their scholarly living by publishing opinion which is already widely held. Jimbo: "If a viewpoint is in the majority, then it should be easy to substantiate it with reference to commonly accepted reference texts" ANSWER: sometimes, yes, but those very texts tend then to be tertiary sources (like encyclopedias), not secondary ones, and are the very sources derided by Wikipedia. If a viewpoint is indeed majority, secondary sources tend to assume it, not state it. S B H arris 23:20, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
More and more of my contributions are being challenged or reverted for original research when they definitely DO NOT fall under the statements in the "What is excluded?" section of these guidelines. I wholeheartedly agree that original research, as defined in these guidelines, is to be avoided. However, sometimes, it is often difficult to find a source for patently obvious information that can easily be verified by anyone who wants to take a few moments to do it.
For example, while researching material for the article on place (United States Census Bureau), I noticed that the USGS always places the latitude and longitude of an unincorporated town or village at or near a major intersection. I also noticed that the Census Bureau places the latitude and longitude of the same places near the geometric center of the census designated place by the same name. However, after devoting considerable time to searching, I could not find a source on the Internet to cite. I put the information into the article and it was immediately challenged as original research and threatened with speedy reversion.
First of all, these edits did not meet any of the seven guidelines that define original research. They did not: introduce a theory or method of solution; introduce original ideas; define new terms; provide new definitions of preexisting terms; refute or support another idea, theory, argument, or position; build a particular case favored by me; or use or introduce and neologisms. I was simply stating the obvious. Secondly, I agree that sources needed to be found. However, as I assume most editors do, I happen to have a day job and I needed to leave that chore for later--or perhaps for one of the thousands of other editors who better knew how to find such information.
In the end, I sent e-mails to both organizations and got confirmation of my observations with web links to cite as references. The end result was good. However, unreferenced material, such as simply making an observation that anyone glance at a map and verify, should not be threatened with speedy deletion. Also, if you think material needs to be verified, don't forget that the editor probably has other obligations that take priority over Wikipedia. He or she may need a little time to do the research.
More recently, I put the story of two major fatal crashes of helicopters that were en route to or from Disneyland in the article on Incidents at Disney parks. I cited a posting on a discussion board that in-turn cited a book on aviation disasters. Within a couple of hours I has a message threating to revert my edit if I didn't state a proper reference. Okay, my bad, I directly cited the book. This morning I got a message from the same person saying--not good enough, no page number. Okay, next time I'm downtown and have some time on my hands, I'll duck into the library and find the bloody page number. In the meantime, I do have a life other than Wikipedia.
The bottom line is that we are all amateurs and should be helping each other, not just challenging each other's edits. I have added references to other editor's material but all I've ever gotten for my own material is reversions and threats of reversion.
The solution is that hard-to-verify material, when something obvious is stated or there is a preponderance of evidence that the story is true, should not be quickly deleted. Time should be given to find proper references. For example, the helicopter story. I remember when it happened. There are several sources on the Internet discussing the incident. There are bits of reliable information on the Internet that can be pieced together to confirm that it happened. However, I spent over an hour trying to find a single site that can be used as a proper reference and could not find a suitable site. After posting the story with the best references I could find another editor took only a moment to threaten to delete it (rather than take some time to help find a good reference). There needs to be a way to temporarily reference such material while proper references are sought. Also, more editors need to help out in finding references, not just delete unsourced material. In other words, we need more editors and fewer cops on Wikipedia. Rsduhamel 16:49, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
The Wikipedia:Citing sources page states, "Any material that is challenged and for which no source is provided may be removed by any editor." This means that putting a "fact" or "cn" tag on a statement is a threat to delete it. I never accused any particular person of any particular threat.
I never said that a particular helicopter crash is "obvious". I was talking about such things as noting that the dots on a map that identify a named place usually fall on or near intersections. The helicopter crashes can be easily verified with a little sleuthing but nothing that can be cited. Does this mean they should not be included in the article while better sources are sought? I will get the page number. It may not happen this week or the next but when I find time to go to the library it will happen, if someone doesn't beat me to it. In the meantime there should be a way to include material that is supported by a preponderance of evidence while proper citations are sought. Rsduhamel 21:16, 17 June 2007 (UTC)
Believe it or not, I think we are headed for agreement here. However, like I've said, I have a life outside Wikipedia and I have to turn my attention elsewhere for the time being. I'll respond to this ASAP. Rsduhamel 03:33, 18 June 2007 (UTC)
There is an article titled Height and Intelligence. This section cites some sources. Of course, no one in their right mind would take the time to investigate the sources in a Wikipedia article. In this case it is not really necessary. Anyone that would write research purporting to advance the notion that increased height brought greater intelligence is clearly suffering from some form of ego and personality disorder. Logic can easily defeat this thesis.
Unfortunately, Wikipedia does not allow logic to defeat this strange crackpot idea purporting to be scholarly research. One must find a verified source. But this would require a source with similar psychological disorders. Unless of course this source happened to be reading Wikipedia. 01001 01:45, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Sandpiper, WilyD you should be ashamed. If you guys cannot be bothered to read the wikipedia article, let alone drag yourselves to the library to investigate any of the scientific research on this topic (cited in the article in question) then what business do you have writing an encyclopedia? 01001 makes the case for WP:NOR here quite elegantly, once again (like his views on the evolutionary loss of body hair, see here) he persists in stating that his opinions *must* be true, despite the demonstrated fact that scientists have seriously considered, and then soundly rejected them. I cannot imagine a clearer example of ignorance, and there is absolutely no way that the whims of willfully ignorant bozos ought to decide what gets presented as scientific fact in an encyclopedia. Pete.Hurd 04:47, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
now there is a link, i read the article. As suggsted, there is no way of quickly checking that the sources are being referenced accurately. However, there are enough of them to suggest someone has had a serious attempt at presenting the debate accurately, and the article does not read as biased. If it is biased, then I would have to say it goes out of its way to suggest that the link between intelligence and height is not a causal one. This does seem to me logical: if you starve children I would not be surprised that both their height and intelligence were affected. Perhaps this is where the debate on the nutritional quality of junk food comes into play? From my answer you would correctly conclude that I have gained the impression from the article that there does exist a proven, undisputed correlation between height and intelligence. As suggested, if you think this is incorrect, then what is needed is sources claiming no such correlation exists. Sandpiper 07:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
Please come to Osteopathic medicine. There seems to be a clearcut case of a WP:SYN violation which keeps getting reverted. There is discussion on this matter here. I would appreciate some third-party opinions. Thanks. -- Levine2112 discuss 21:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)
Wasn't all research original research at one point in time, just because someone writes a book about something or publishes a theory doesn't mean his opinion is any more valid than anyone elses, I mean, If I fly on a American Airlines jet and see that the seats are all cream colored, but some book says that all American Airlines seats are blue, doesn't that mean that my original research is completely valid?
Note that Wikiversity allows, and even encourages, OR. StuRat 16:44, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
The policy read, "reliable published source who writes about the same claims or advances the same argument as you." - sources can't write anything, as defined later, sources are books, journals or newspapers. Authors can however write about things. I have changed this to "reliable published source that advances the same claims or makes the same argument as you." I hope this is OK.
Also the list that at present states:
I tried to insert the word "new", but this change was reverted. Which option would people prefer? Tim Vickers 01:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
I propose to clarify the section on original images by adding a sub-sentence at the very end, resulting in:
“Images that constitute original research in any other way are not allowed, such as a diagram of a hydrogen atom showing extra particles in the nucleus as theorized by the uploader, or a diagram representing a business or engineering process from one particular viewpoint where there possibly are many competing viewpoints.”
In my opinion, the selection of one particular viewpoint among many constitutes original research. Iterator12n 18:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
On a different tack, some images do "propose unpublished ideas or arguments". For example, I recall a photograph of an unusual animal carcass in the American Southwest that the uploader considered to be an example of animal sacrifice, though he could not point to any documented tradition of animal sacrifice in the area. Perhaps we should also have a guideline against "look at this strange thing I stumbled upon"-type photographs.-- Pharos 22:51, 3 July 2007 (UTC)
User:SlimVirgin has repeatedly objected to the copy-edits made in these edits as she feels that
The specific objections are:
1) Introduces a new theory is unnecessary; if it's introducing it, it's a new one;
So the phrase "Introduces ideas" wasn't seen as enough and the word "original" was added, either you need such an additional clarifying word in both items, or in neither.
2) Sources are people or publications, so saying "who" of a source is fine The old wording was "a reliable published source who writes about", but all the reliable sources listed later were books, newspaper articles etc, nowhere is this policy are people referred to as "reliable sources". Indeed, people can never be reliable sources.
3) "A journalist's analysis and commentary on a traffic accident is based on eye-witness reports ..." But what if it isn't?
The old wording was "A journalist's analysis or commentary of a traffic accident based on eye-witness reports is a secondary source. " the edit was to "A journalist's analysis and commentary on a traffic accident is based on eye-witness reports and is a secondary source." - this does not change the meaning of the sentence.
4) Nothing wrong with his or her.
"His and her" or even worse "s/he" is clumsy English, "their" is clearer.
5) By a publisher, not in a source, because sources are sometimes people.
People are not reliable sources, people write reliable sources. Tim Vickers 19:19, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Old version - "a reliable published source who writes about the same claims or advances the same argument as you."
New version - "a reliable published source that advances the same claims or makes the same argument as you."
FWIW, SV are you simply missing that Tim is simply trying to make some fairly basic corrections of grammar (which having looked at the diff may well seem irrelevant, but they are generally correct)? These are not intended to be policy changes. Spenny 21:42, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
The reversion of the edits we are currently discussing is not a positive action. SlimVirgin, you are the only person who has problems with the edits. Please do not act unilaterally. Tim Vickers 21:48, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Request for diffs - You claim I introduced "pointless changes along with changes that made no sense, and reverting when people objected," could you please provide a diff for any reversions I have made on these policy pages that restored my edits after their removal by other editors? Tim Vickers 23:23, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and by the way, I'd rate it as impolite that I attempted to take this discussion offline to your talk page and it is simply archived (seems to mean deleted as there is no obvious link to an archive that I discern) without comment or response. I did a little reading around this morning and I am now a little less convinced of my belief that you are acting in good faith. Spenny 12:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
To focus the discussion a little and make it less personal, could people please indicate which of these edits they object to? That would allow us to replace the majority of the grammatical corrections and clarifications and concentrate on working towards a consensus wording on the disputed changes. Tim Vickers 04:58, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
The relevant edits are:
I feel it is appropriate to suggest that silence is approval for these changes presented in this way. I would not like to see a revert justified on no consensus for change after a reasonable passage of time. Spenny 20:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
The page has now been unprotected. Are there any editors with strong objections to the consensus wordings that are outlined above? Tim Vickers 20:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC)
One of the sections is titled "What is excluded?"; however, the contents of that sections suggest what is constituted as OR, rather than what is not considered OR, as the section title suggests. Should this be changed to a more appropriate title (i.e. "Examples," etc.)? Although I am an admin and can change this in an instant, I am loath to, given the current state of affairs and full protection of the page. — Kurykh 04:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
A number of Tim's edits to the page were grammar issues that, while I saw the new ones as improved, they weren't vital to me. however, there were two things I needed to bring up:
It introduces a theory or method of solution;
Tim's rewrite of it is important that editors situate the research; that is, provide contextual information about the point of view was absolutely better. So much so, though it used almost the exact same words, that it almost makes me believe SV is reverting Tim's stuff because it's Tim's.
On the other hand, the use of 'their' and 'they' for singular gender-free usage is actually still really atrocious. I hate 's/he' with a passion, but I really find the awkwardness of 'his or her' preferable.
And no, I'm not regularly around this place; but I'm nearing 1000 edits, and I have a good understanding of these policies that I've been using, and I'm a writer and sometime journalist who does tech manuals and usability design (so I spend a lot of time saying 'how is that going to be misunderstood?'), who would like to see much more clarity in policies.
(btw, on the other issue, 'may be deleted' is never a good phrasing, as, depending whether you're an editor or an admin, it can be read as a crapshoot (may be deleted....may not be...), and to an admin, it can be read as permission (you may (can) delete). 'Will be' is obviously incorrect, but 'may be' is never a good term to use when you don't want misinterpretations. -- Thespian 04:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
Minasbeede 12:35, 2 July 2007 (UTC)
There is no agreement about the exact meaning of "primary source" versus "secondary source" as the terms relate to wikipedia. Further there is no consensus on their exact proper useage in wikipedia. There is some rough agreement, good enough so it is mostly not worth worrying about. But we've been over all this before, right slim? Historians and scientists dealing with quantitative objective data each use the term "primary source" to mean different things. Further, the source itself is not "primary" or "secondary" but how you use a claim from a source makes it so with respect to wikipedia's sourcing of that claim. If wikipedia quotes a reporter's article then that article is wikipedia's primary source on quotes from that article. Which can include an analysis which is original with the reporter. So the article is the primary source for that analysis. It can also include the reporter's quoting of some other source which then makes the article a secondary source for wikipedia's sourcing of information the reporter had a source for. The data the reporter used for his analysis was a source other than the reporter himself, but his original analysis is not sourced from that other source and so his article is a primary source for wikipedia's use of that analysis. Historians see documents as primary sources while often scientists refer to the actual experiments as their original source. Experts prefer primary sources but "wikipedia prefers secondary sources" is claimed by some leading to a dysfunctional relationship between experts and wikipedia causing an expert retention problem and wikiality where people who don't know a subject vote on how to write it based on newspaper misreports. All of this is too much for this policy and I think the less the policy talks about primary and secondary sources the better. WAS 4.250 08:55, 29 June 2007 (UTC)
I'm new. I'm working on an article for a small commuter line/tourist railroad called Samtrak. There is a small amount of published material in our local newspaper that I can quote, but I'd like interview both the owner and engineer for the railroad to verify the newspaper articles and fill in missing information. Is that considered original research? Should I archive the interview online (recording and transcript) so it can be verified that I'm quoting it correctly. What's the Wikipedia way for doing this? PerlDreamer 18:17, 30 June 2007 (UTC)
I respectfully disagree. There are degrees of evidence. This would be considered weaker than a published third-party account, and it would not be strong enough to replace such a published account even if you knew it to be more "true". For a topic that is not likely to be controversial and that has at least some other published reference to confirm it is not a total fabrication, I would encourage you to do what you are describing. The opportunity to have useful material with accessible source outweighs the chance that it could be a hoax and we couldnt figure it out. alteripse 02:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I've unlocked the article, I hope you can all work it out without edit warring again. Remember, one bold edit, one reversion, and then lots of discussion to consensus, and then the next bold edit, the next reversion, the next discussion and the next consensus, and then the next...
Good luck. Hiding Talk 12:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
It is clear to me that Open Source Software brings a product of much higher quality than Wikipedia brings. Also Open Source Software not only allows OR, but thrives on it. 01001 23:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
I've noted a number of problems with the example on synthesis above in the "Chicago manual of style" section, which I think justify removing the example. I would suggest either having no example (we don't illustrate any other points in the policy with examples), or a simpler, more straightforward one that is more easily understood. Here's some suggested text based on a previous discussion at the now defunct WP:ATT/FAQ:
Lots of other examples would be possible. Any comments or suggestions for improvements, or alternative examples? Enchanter 19:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
I think we are talking about two types of original research here. For each type of original research, there are different reasons why we don't want it in Wikipedia.
1) The original idea for the no original research policy was to avoid having statements in Wikipedia that we couldn't judge the truth of. This is the original and most obvious form of original research. If someone cites some results of physics experiments and puts forward their own new theory to explain the results, we are not equipped to judge whether it is groundbreaking work or a crackpot theory. So unless the theory has been published in a reliable source first, we don't want it in Wikipedia.
2) But going beyond this original definition of OR, there are more areas where we don't want new ideas in Wikipedia, even if they are well sourced and obviously logically true. This is particularly the case where the new ideas are controversial, or make allegations against individuals. These are the kinds of cases that Crum's examples were getting at. To give another example:
Importantly, although we exclude the basic logical deduction for the politican lying, we don't need to exclude basic logical deductions for straightforward uncontroversial cases (converting miles to kilometers, etc). I think it is the possibility of overextending the rules on controversial cases, where we are avoiding "advancing a position", to uncontroversial cases that is causing Spenny's and Sandpiper's concerns above. They are right in that an outright ban on making logical inferences or mathematical deductions would be inappropriate for a scholarly encyclopedia - but noone has really been arguing for this.
I think the policy would be clearer if we identified more specifically the reasons why we need to stick particularly close to sources in certain circumstances, and where boundaries should lie. It's a good idea on policy pages to explain clearly why we have a particular policy - noone likes following a rule if the reason it was introduced is not made clear.
The above is an oversimplification as there are more issues to consider in judging the boundaries of OR, but I hope it makes sense as an attempt to summarise the current debate. Comments welcome. Enchanter 00:02, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Part of this difficulty is because wiki has a NOR policy, when it is not talking about OR in the normally accepted academic sense. I think when the policy started, the writers probably had exactly the same meaning in mind, but wiki OR is now an entirely different thing. I am sure a lot of people do not like the line "However, research that consists of collecting and organizing information from existing primary and/or secondary sources is, of course, strongly encouraged. All articles on Wikipedia should be based on information collected from published primary and secondary sources. This is not "original research"; it is "source-based research", and it is fundamental to writing an encyclopedia.", but I presume it remains here, because unless editors carry out original research in the normal sense, no encyclopedia is possible. The difficulty here seems to me that the attempt to ban synthesis is in conflict with a normal expectation of collecting information.
As I commented above, to deliberately leave out reliable information that a school was closed at the time someone was attending it is in itself to make a choice about which version is correct. This is clearly not a good example for demonstrating rules about synthesis if it relies upon side issues of controversiality to justify its existence. With regard to politicians, this seems to me more an issue of whether a statement is libelous, not whether it is true or OR. It is not libelous to state sourced facts. It would be potentially libelous to draw a conclusion that the person had lied in claiming to have attended the school, but it might also be the case that the school records had been mistakenly recorded, that the person's attendance was correct. The more I consider this, the more I think this is a very bad example to choose. It is more an example of what to do when equally valid contradictory information exists. Explain both pieces of information giving them equal weight. I agree there is a conflict between an attempt to ban all possible synthesis and still making a neutral presentation of facts. But this cannot be resolved by arguing that synthesis trumps neutrality. It has to be resolved by accepting that inevitably situations exist in which there is contradictory information. This can only be resolved by explaining all the information, without further comment.
As to tall people and doorways, I am reminded of a local town which has a number of elizabethan houses with doorways 5 foot high. I dare say they were all built to code at that time. In this case, there is no obvious contradiction between the facts that people hit there heads, and that building regulations exist. Whether hitting ones head gets mentioned would depend upon whether someone though it worth mentioning. This is a much better example of synthesis, though it risks the problem again that trivially it is very probably true and a real encyclopedia would have no difficulty including it.
Returning to politicians lying. It would be unacceptable to claim that the politician did lie, but it would not be unacceptable to state that on one occasion he said x, and on another he said the contradictory Y. This is straight reporting of established facts. I can only imagine such an issue coming up in the context of reporting what a politicain had done about something, and it would then obviously be correct to state that on one occasion his view was x, but at another it was Y. Failing to report either is immediately to take a position on which is valid, and is unacceptable. It exactly is the role of people writing an encyclopedia to judge what is relevant for inclusion in an article, and in this example to dig out evidence for what the politician has done. Not because he is a politician, but because the role of an editor is to find, assess and neutrally present sourced information. Sandpiper 09:20, 27 June 2007 (UTC)
Going back to the "school" example given by Crum, I don't necessarily agree with the comments that this was "too obvious" (although it might be in some contexts). To give some more context and explanation for what the example is driving at, let's try:
The above explanation is perhaps too long and should be edited down. However, do people agree with the general reasoning of the example set out above? Enchanter 23:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)
Creating a new analysis from reliable sources.
When considering whether an edit introduces a new concept, it is important to understand that it is not just the introduction of underlying facts that need to be considered, but the analysis of those facts too. In Wikipedia, the process of creating new ideas out of proven facts is often called synthesis. Whilst creating articles is about collating information and there is a low level of analysis that cannot be avoided in that process, it is assumed that there should be no need for significant new analysis. The acid test for what is reasonable is the concept of advancing a position. If the analysis required to present a concept is more than a simple summary, especially if it creates a contentious view point, then, however well grounded in fact it is, an objector would be entitled to request the citation of the analysis. If no justification is forthcoming, then the analysis should be removed. Further, in sensitive articles, such as living biographies, the simple arrangement of facts on a page might be enough to create an analysis. Although it might be considered to be censorship to remove proven facts about a topic, editors need to be sensitive to the feelings of individuals and be aware that even inadvertent libel can create legal issues that could threaten the viability of Wikipedia. To give an example of the problem,...