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It would appear that the policy page has been returned from Historical to active status or at least that there is a movement afoot to do so, so I have taken the liberty of commenting out the historical tag here. If this movement carries on it may be appropriate to unprotect the page as well in accordance with common practice. ++ Lar: t/ c 16:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I have protected this page to maintain stability while the WP:ATT situation is being sorted out. Crum375 00:34, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Attribution/Community discussion
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
The current policy currently states that if A and B are both reliable sources, they still cannot be used together to advance opinion C. Specifically, "In other words, that precise analysis must have been published by a reliable source in relation to the topic before it can be published in Wikipedia."
But I have question on basis of logical reasoning. In philosophy, we call the idea hypothetical syllogism. The argument goes as follows: If Q, then R. If P, then Q. Therefore, if P, then R. This is a deductively valid argument. If P and Q are both true, then R is logically true as well. For example, consider the following argument: All cats are mammals. All mammals are warmblooded. Therefore, all cats are warmblooded. If we provide a reference for the first premise (all cats are mammals) and different reference for the second premise (all mammals are warmblooded), would we be be allowed to use that as justification for writing within an article "all cats are warmblooded"? ~ UBeR 01:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
There should be a prominent merge tag posted on this page, directing people to the discussion, which is supposed to be trying to attract as many people as possible. This is the very problem that led to the current dispute: that there had been no merge tag on this and similar pages while discussions about possibly merging were going on. Would someone please correct this and put up the merge tags? -- Coppertwig 00:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
The project page needs {{
Mergeto|Attribution}}
(see
Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll - merge has been proposed). —
SMcCandlish [
talk] [
contrib ツ 19:37, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I suggest the following template is added along with {{ protected2}}:
You may have seen something similar on your watchlists. Would anyone object if I added this or something similar? -- zzuuzz (talk) 18:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Verifiability/Header. I was asked by an admin from WP:RFPP to come up with a combination of the merge header from WP:RS and the protection header from WP:ATT, to be used on both WP:V and WP:RS, and propose it here. My take at this is located at the link above (it has code in it so it can be used on both pages). By belief is that this version will satisfy everyone. It has the text (with twiddles that make it apply to these pages instead of ATT) from ATT's tag, including the protection discussion, with the merge tag formatting of the one at RS. So, it would replace the {{ Protected}} on this page, and obviate the need to continue editprotecting about the need for a merge tag. I think it also absorbs all the ideas of the template in the topic above, too. Any objections? It looks like this:
— SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 00:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
This should absolutely be renamed to Wikipedia:No original thought because of the problem in wikilawyering where ANY research, including organizing information logically or seeking out citations, is seen as "original research". Mermaid from the Baltic Sea 01:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo Wales requested a poll to gauge community thoughts on the Wikipedia:Attribution merger. A poll for this is being crafted, and is somewhat close to done. Concensus for the past 24 hours (with the occasional dissenting voice of course) that the thing is close to done. Only the main question is still heavily debated. A pre-poll straw poll is here:
Wikipedia_talk:Attribution/Poll#Q1_Straw_poll_duration
To sort that out. Accepted group concensus seems to be to pre-poll to 4/1/07 22:00 and then launch a site-wide poll (again, as implied/requested by Jimbo) at 4/2/07 00:00. Please help hash out the wording for that last quesion. - Denny 13:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Slow down, slow down! I thought you'd give me time to talk with people? -- Kim Bruning 13:44, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Per comments on the Talk page here, and in other locales, it appears groups of editors are specifically against Jimbo's specifically requested public poll to gauge thoughts/support on the idea of the ATT merger. As it has been stated that the Poll is "dead" per users such as User:WAS 4.250, I am nominating this. If there is wide spread support to run this poll, this page should be kept. The MfD is here:
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll
Thank you. - Denny 16:10, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Is referencing a T.V show original research?-- Lucy-marie 10:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Are you referring to fact or fiction?
With facts, you can reference anything that somebody said or claimed in a documentary or a news show just like you would reference them if they wrote what they said in a book.
With fiction, it's a little more complex. You can directly cites something as written in a show's script or shown on screen. For example "Doctor Drake showed a more sensitive side in episode X of Y when he.....". However, you can't take it any further than that by attributing something to a character if it isn't directly stated. For example you can't say "Doctor Drake's emotional breakdown in episode X of Y was possibly a sign that he was abused as a child" unless abuse during his childhood was specifically raised in the show.
perfectblue 09:54, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
What are the views of making a page/site or having someone else make a site just to use said site to have a source for wikipedia? I want to point out the fact that if this happened i am speaking as if the information posted in said sight really was true and legitimate. Would That be original research >:]? Just trying to point out the fact that you can't go and mark out someones information they post on here just because they don't have a source, yes sources are very nice and you should have one none the less. -- NekoD 11:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The questions are :
I get the idea of no original research because the information must be verifiable. However, how can any "new" research be done without it being (somewhat) original? Think about it.-- Sportman2 15:08, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I just recently ran across the {{ importance-s}} warning, and am a bit confused by it given WP:N#Notability_guidelines_do_not_directly_limit_article-content. Isn't importance of sections more an issue of original research, sources, and undue weight than notability? -- Ronz 00:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Wales' quote specifically mentions novel deductions, and my recollection is that this policy used to say the same - but it doesn't seem to now. Anyone know what's going on? I ask because I'm currently involved in a dispute where I'm accused of original research by synthesizing a reliable source and a thesaurus, essentially, as I'm using a synonym of the topic in the source, rather than the topic itself. I can't imagine, for example, that sources that talk about HD 39060 but not Beta Pictoris can't be used at the later, but a strict reading of this policy could be seen to say that. WilyD 21:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
This remains a problem. I'm unwilling to change this because I'm involved in a relevent dispute, but right now the policy as read literally strictly forbids the use of multiple sources in an article, and implies it forbids anything but straight copying. Using a thesaurus to reword a statement is synthesis, it's just not original research, nor is it novel synthesis, which is what used to be prohibited. Is there a consensus to make this clear? Will someone fix it? WilyD 20:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
In a line of thought that I've been working on recently, I tend to see the prohibition on synthesis as a corollary of neutral point of view. Synthesis is about producing a new point of view, which is contrary to NPOV because our objective is to present existing points of view. Naturally there will be many Wikipedia articles which present information in a form that it hasn't been presented in before, but as long as it's merely putting things alongside each other that's ok. So the question to be asked is, am I using these sources to produce a new point of view? -- bainer ( talk) 16:27, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
WilyD is providing a virtually textbook example of a synthetic statement, it is virtually right out of Kant. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I think it is forbidden. But see also my comment about rapid transit, below. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:34, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I am confused. I am talking about this "Apples are red + apples are fruit => some fruit are red" - I do not see this as an example of the dictionary/thesaurus type interpretation, which I believe the policy fully allows. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:28, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Feel free to help us word the policy more carefully. What is essential is that editors cannot forward their own argument that involves drawing on two different sources, neither of which make the actual argument at issue. If source A says "X was a terrible person" and source B says "X was a horrible person" and a thesaurus says "horrible" is a synonym for "terrible" and an editor makes an edit "Several people have claimed that X is a horrible person, including A,B, C, and D" the edit does NOT violate our policy. If source A says "men are horrible" and source B says "X is a man" and an editor writes "According to A, X is horrible" the edit DOES violate the policy. Is this clear? Does it make sense? If the answer to both questions is yes, and you feel the policy can explain this more clearly, go ahead (I am about to go off-line) Slrubenstein | Talk 17:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate your honesty and sense of propriety. As to your case, I have a comment: the question is, who is authorized to apply/execute/enforce the convention? My understanding is, not individuals. Perhaps states or international bodies like the UN or the ICC. In this case, it is a violation of our policy for you to use this Convention to decide who has committed racial discrimination. Someone else has to do it. Let me give an analogy: rape is a crime in most states (all?). If X believes s/he was raped by Y, according to the statute, that is just not enough for someone to add to the article on X or Y (if either of them are famous enough to have an article here). Only if X actually accuses Y of rape, and this accusation is recorded in some public document - for example, if the police arrest Y or the DA indicts - can the article report that "X accused Y of rape" - even now, we still wouldn't write, Y raped X. If there is a trial and Y is found guilty, we can write "Y was found guilty of rape." Do you see my point? We are reporting on what an appropriate authority does, we are not actually making the decision as to whether rape occured. Same goes for genocide. No matter how we read the conventions on genocide, wikipedia editors cannot say "Genocide = X" and "X happened to Armenians" therefore "The Armenians were victims of genocie." All we can do is report "The UN (or the ICC or whomever) concluded that the Armenians were victims of genocide." Lacking that, we can also say "historians x, y, and z have concluded that the Armenians were victims of genocide." But we cannot make this conclusion. Does this help? Slrubenstein | Talk 18:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The question remains, who, according to the convention, has the authority to enforce or apply the convention? Whatever the convention says, our policy is this: it is not for a Wikipedia editor to make these judgements. This is also an NPOV issue, by the way. If any Iranian institution, state, international organization, real (meaning, not consisting of one or two people who just call themselves this) NGO - or if a journalist, historian, or social or political organization, accuses Iran of having violated the convention, we can report this accusation. And if the international body empowered by the convention to enforce the convention decides that Iran has indeed violated the convention, then we can report that too. But an editor cannot add to an article his/her own views on this matter. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
WilyD, given what you just added, you may be doing yourself a disservice if you are quoting the convention - it means you are adding your own argument, and that violates our policy. What is important is that the US DOS and AI and UNPO have alleged that ethnic minorities face persecution. It doesn't matter whether they are biased, you are talking about a major NGO, a superpower, and an international organization - NPOV does not prevent us from adding sources that are biased, indeed, we assume ALL sources are biased; NPOV insists we correctly identify the POV and provide multiple and if they exist opposing views. So the thing to do is to make clear that these entities have accused Iran of persecuting ethnic minorities - this is a verifiable fact and must be included in the article, no one can remove it. Have any of these entities explicitly cited the convention? If so, you can say so and provide the source - what is important is that a verifiable source is quoting the convention, not you. If none of these entities quote the convention, then you cannot introduce it, that violates policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
For instance, I use this sentence The Iranian regime continues to repress its minority ethnic and religious groups, including Azeris, Kurds, Bahai, ethnic Arabs and others. from a US State Department Report to talk about persecution of ethnic minorities - nowhere does the word racism appear. WilyD 19:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The following section appears to me to be compliant with all of our policies. I do not think that you need to find a source that uses racism since you are not claiming racism - This sentence - "The 1993 review of Iran's compliance with the treaty by the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination found that although the government of Iran condemned racial discrimination in public statements, insufficient information was provided by Iran to properly assess how the convention was being implimented in Iran, and whether Iran was fufilling its obligations under the treaty" - justifies inclusion in the "racism by country" article, and the sentences on persecution of minorities are appropriate. I would not change the wording to add the word "racism" I would just say that the issue of persecution of minorities is relevant enough to merit inclusion as long as you do not change the wording. That is my view. What you need to do is take a break, use our discussion to gather and clarify your thoughts, and file a "request for comment" in which you provide the most concise summary of what is going on and what the key points of contention are. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
According to article 19 of the Iranian constitution [1]:
the people of Iran belonging to whatever ethnic or tribal group shall enjoy equal rights and colour of skin, race, language and the like shall not be considered as a privilege
Iran is a signatory to the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. The 1993 review of Iran's compliance with the treaty by the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination found that although the government of Iran condemned racial discrimination in public statements, insufficient information was provided by Iran to properly assess how the convention was being implimented in Iran, and whether Iran was fufilling its obligations under the treaty. [2] The Iranian representative respond to the committee saying that there has not been a census of racial demographics in Iran, that the government of Iran does not collect or use racial information in hiring government employees or university admissions and that Iran is not a multiracial society.
Other agencies have alledged that ethnic minorites such as Azeris, Kurds and ethnic Arabs face persecution [3] [4] [5]. Reported issues include Arab land being purchased at low prices or confiscated [6] [7] [8] and the violent repression of Kurds. [9] Iranian President Mahmud Ahmadinejad blamed unspecified "enemies" for increasing ethnic tensions in Iran, while interior minister Mostafa Pour-Mohammadi claimed the United States plans to increase ethnic violence in Iran. [10]
I've proposed (at WP:ATT) that the plagiarism example about synthesis is removed, and propose that it is removed from this page also. I've also proposed a replacement example at Wikipedia talk:Attribution/FAQ#Example(s) of unpublished synthesis and at Wikipedia talk:Attribution#Concerning "Unpublished synthesis of published material", and have had no objections since. There is also some earlier discussion at Wikipedia talk:Attribution/Archive 13#Synthesis section. The change was put on hold a bit because of the merge debate on the attribution policy, I'm raising the issue here again.
To summarise a few of the reasons why I think the current example should be removed:
For our policy pages to do their job, they need to be clearly understood by the reader, and clear, unambigous examples help with this. But this example is unclear and ambiguous, and has fundamental problems that mean that it can't be fixed just by changing a few words. I propose that it is removed from here and WP:ATT (and perhaps replaced by an alternative example at WP:ATT/FAQ).
Does anyone have any comments, objections or alternative suggestions before making the change? Enchanter 00:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
As far as I have understood, it is perfectly all right to use a bit of original research in the discussion pages as an argument for a point (unless the point is that original research should be included in the article itself). For instance, when I wrote this, I looked at a few discussion pages and found that most of the discussion was actually more or less original research. Let me give you a fictional example:
On a discussion page reagarding a show that takes place in medieval times A says: "Do you really think we need a 'historical inaccuracies section'?" and B replies: "Well I showed it to three people who watched the show and they thought it was interesting."
B's reply is of course original research. It is perfectly all right for B to write this on the discussion page. It is only when he tries to include his little (three-person) inquiry to the article itself that he commits an error.
This may seem obvious but I have had people complain that an argument on the discussion page was original research and I think this clarification is needed.
Sensemaker
I've got a small problem with a user who keeps insisting on deleting 2 user generated images because they think that they violate WP:OR. Their argument is that because the pictures are "artists renderings" based on witness statements they violate WP:OR, my standpoint is that because the creature that the pictures are depicting doesn't actually (it's a paranormal creature) there is no way that you can possibly have a real photograph.
An outside opinion on this would be useful.
The page in question is Shadow people.
perfectblue 14:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't really care about the second picture, but the first picture is of good quality, is an represent of shadow people as commonly described, and we have permission to publish it.
What would you consider to be a non WP:OR picture? Honestly? If you're holding out for a real photograph, you're simply not going to get one. Shadow people are basically fictional so an artists impression is permissible. They are the result of an overactive imagination and people's eyes playing tricks on them, and you can't photograph something that doesn't exist.
I can fake a picture of my own based on the description on the page, would you RV that too?
perfectblue 15:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
See the Original Images section on [[WP:OR} Pictures have enjoyed a broad exception from this policy, WilyD 17:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I was reverting to the previous version, the same as you. Did you think that I typed all that code in by hand? The second image is completely superfluous as far as I'm concerned. Especially since the page now has an infobox which leaves room (sensibly speaking) for only one image.
Seriously, though "generally considered not to exist", what am I supposed to make of this? We're talking about "shadow people" (scare quotes intentional). There's no general about it. There is no room for shadow people in parapsychology, ghost hunting or even pseudoscience. They are an extension of the bogeyman left over from when people feared the dark.
perfectblue 20:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
According to many reliable sources ( [1] [2] [3] and others), rapid transit is "rail or motorbus transit service operating completely separate from all modes of transportation on an exclusive right-of-way". Is it original research to say that since AirTrain JFK meets this definition, it is rapid transit? Does [4], which says that automated light rail (which AirTrain JFK is [5]) is a type of rapid transit, help? -- NE2 07:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
On Talk:Ancient_Egypt_and_race#remove_OR disagreement over whether a certain paragraph is Original Research. Urthogie 19:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Regarding this addition of Pmanderson's, [6] is this something we want to include? Sometimes it really is obvious to specialists that "most" of them believe X, even if there's no reliable source that says this explictly. For example, it seems obvious to me that most scientists agree with the man-made global warming hypothesis, although I suspect the ones who don't would say it's not true that most scientists agree with it. I feel we should leave this issue to the actual editors, rather than issuing mandatory advice here out of context. We already have some advice about it in Wikipedia:Words to avoid. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin (talk) 22:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
This is moot now as one of my sources has disappeared, but:
If I have a primary source statement that says "If A then B", and I have another source that states "A", then is it acceptable to state these, and then say that "B" is likely? Another editor opined that this might be original research, but it seems that logically I'm creating no new information. scot 22:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I think this section needs to be worded to more strongly discourage against citing oneself. As it reads, if one does not follow the link to Wikipedia:Conflict of interest, it sounds like citing oneself is not a problem. I propose replacing this:
If an editor has published the results of his or her research in a reliable publication, then s/he may cite that source while writing in the third person and complying with our NPOV policy. See also Wikipedia's guidelines on conflict of interest.
With something like this (the bold does not go in, I've just put it here to emphasise change):
If an editor has published the results of his or her research in a reliable publication, then s/he may cite that source while writing in the third person and complying with our NPOV policy. However this is discouraged - see Wikipedia:Conflict of interest
How does that sound? Rocksong 03:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
May I suggest this tweaked version? "Editors who have had their material published by reliable publications may cite themselves as sources, while writing in the third person and complying with our NPOV policy, but doing so is not encouraged. See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest." SlimVirgin (talk) 07:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I've just noticed that Wikipedia:Conflict of interest has a specific paragraph Wikipedia:Conflict of interest#Citing oneself which puts it fairly well. (Doesn't actually discourage it, but suggests using the Talk page like WilyD says). Perhaps we could just add one of those "See also" templates to point specifically to that paragraph, i.e.:
Rocksong 00:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please check out List of United States Presidential religious affiliations. It seems to me that significant sections of this article amount to an original Synthesis ... drawing conclusions about the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Presidents based upon primary sources. This isn't a POV issue. My sole concern is with such a massive WP:SYNT violation. Unfortunately, based upon my discussions about similar issues at related articles, I am not sure if the principal editor understands this, or sees what is wrong with the article. I am not sure how to fix this... If we cut the synth, we would basically gut the article (which is definitely noteworthy and should not be deleted). I could use some help trying to explain things and figuring out how to fix them. Thanks Blueboar 14:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I need an admin to take a look at Shadow people and to rule whether the original images that were included there (see history) violate WP:OR.
I've tried to explain to another user how images are mostly exempt so long as they represent a something that has previous been established, but they won't listen.
perfectblue 18:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Please see here. Thanks, -- Sagie 18:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Regarding On using primary sources, I contend that by taking the side of scientists (or creationists) in a socio-political article regarding a controversy involving scientists (and creationists), it is POV--while taking the side of the scientists on a pseudo-scientific article is NPOV. Please either comment here or at the Creation-evolution_controversy talk page. This is an important issue requiring the guidance of disinterested wikipedians as the article attracts a lot of well meaning partisans. Thanks. ImprobabilityDrive 07:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a sentence in this policy that reads "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, verifiable, published secondary sources wherever possible." What are people's thoughts about removing the words "wherever possible?" Isn't it precisely the csaes where reliance on secondary sources is NOT possible that are most important to avoid in WP, in order to follow the NOR policy? Note that the sentence would still have the word "should" and not an alternative like "must." Thoughts? UnitedStatesian 17:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 | Archive 20 |
It would appear that the policy page has been returned from Historical to active status or at least that there is a movement afoot to do so, so I have taken the liberty of commenting out the historical tag here. If this movement carries on it may be appropriate to unprotect the page as well in accordance with common practice. ++ Lar: t/ c 16:44, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
I have protected this page to maintain stability while the WP:ATT situation is being sorted out. Crum375 00:34, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia talk:Attribution/Community discussion
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 23:12, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
The current policy currently states that if A and B are both reliable sources, they still cannot be used together to advance opinion C. Specifically, "In other words, that precise analysis must have been published by a reliable source in relation to the topic before it can be published in Wikipedia."
But I have question on basis of logical reasoning. In philosophy, we call the idea hypothetical syllogism. The argument goes as follows: If Q, then R. If P, then Q. Therefore, if P, then R. This is a deductively valid argument. If P and Q are both true, then R is logically true as well. For example, consider the following argument: All cats are mammals. All mammals are warmblooded. Therefore, all cats are warmblooded. If we provide a reference for the first premise (all cats are mammals) and different reference for the second premise (all mammals are warmblooded), would we be be allowed to use that as justification for writing within an article "all cats are warmblooded"? ~ UBeR 01:24, 23 March 2007 (UTC)
There should be a prominent merge tag posted on this page, directing people to the discussion, which is supposed to be trying to attract as many people as possible. This is the very problem that led to the current dispute: that there had been no merge tag on this and similar pages while discussions about possibly merging were going on. Would someone please correct this and put up the merge tags? -- Coppertwig 00:13, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
The project page needs {{
Mergeto|Attribution}}
(see
Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll - merge has been proposed). —
SMcCandlish [
talk] [
contrib ツ 19:37, 25 March 2007 (UTC)
I suggest the following template is added along with {{ protected2}}:
You may have seen something similar on your watchlists. Would anyone object if I added this or something similar? -- zzuuzz (talk) 18:52, 26 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Verifiability/Header. I was asked by an admin from WP:RFPP to come up with a combination of the merge header from WP:RS and the protection header from WP:ATT, to be used on both WP:V and WP:RS, and propose it here. My take at this is located at the link above (it has code in it so it can be used on both pages). By belief is that this version will satisfy everyone. It has the text (with twiddles that make it apply to these pages instead of ATT) from ATT's tag, including the protection discussion, with the merge tag formatting of the one at RS. So, it would replace the {{ Protected}} on this page, and obviate the need to continue editprotecting about the need for a merge tag. I think it also absorbs all the ideas of the template in the topic above, too. Any objections? It looks like this:
— SMcCandlish [ talk] [ contrib ツ 00:44, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
This should absolutely be renamed to Wikipedia:No original thought because of the problem in wikilawyering where ANY research, including organizing information logically or seeking out citations, is seen as "original research". Mermaid from the Baltic Sea 01:53, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Jimbo Wales requested a poll to gauge community thoughts on the Wikipedia:Attribution merger. A poll for this is being crafted, and is somewhat close to done. Concensus for the past 24 hours (with the occasional dissenting voice of course) that the thing is close to done. Only the main question is still heavily debated. A pre-poll straw poll is here:
Wikipedia_talk:Attribution/Poll#Q1_Straw_poll_duration
To sort that out. Accepted group concensus seems to be to pre-poll to 4/1/07 22:00 and then launch a site-wide poll (again, as implied/requested by Jimbo) at 4/2/07 00:00. Please help hash out the wording for that last quesion. - Denny 13:31, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Slow down, slow down! I thought you'd give me time to talk with people? -- Kim Bruning 13:44, 29 March 2007 (UTC)
Per comments on the Talk page here, and in other locales, it appears groups of editors are specifically against Jimbo's specifically requested public poll to gauge thoughts/support on the idea of the ATT merger. As it has been stated that the Poll is "dead" per users such as User:WAS 4.250, I am nominating this. If there is wide spread support to run this poll, this page should be kept. The MfD is here:
Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Attribution/Poll
Thank you. - Denny 16:10, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Is referencing a T.V show original research?-- Lucy-marie 10:08, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Are you referring to fact or fiction?
With facts, you can reference anything that somebody said or claimed in a documentary or a news show just like you would reference them if they wrote what they said in a book.
With fiction, it's a little more complex. You can directly cites something as written in a show's script or shown on screen. For example "Doctor Drake showed a more sensitive side in episode X of Y when he.....". However, you can't take it any further than that by attributing something to a character if it isn't directly stated. For example you can't say "Doctor Drake's emotional breakdown in episode X of Y was possibly a sign that he was abused as a child" unless abuse during his childhood was specifically raised in the show.
perfectblue 09:54, 1 May 2007 (UTC)
What are the views of making a page/site or having someone else make a site just to use said site to have a source for wikipedia? I want to point out the fact that if this happened i am speaking as if the information posted in said sight really was true and legitimate. Would That be original research >:]? Just trying to point out the fact that you can't go and mark out someones information they post on here just because they don't have a source, yes sources are very nice and you should have one none the less. -- NekoD 11:26, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
The questions are :
I get the idea of no original research because the information must be verifiable. However, how can any "new" research be done without it being (somewhat) original? Think about it.-- Sportman2 15:08, 8 April 2007 (UTC)
I just recently ran across the {{ importance-s}} warning, and am a bit confused by it given WP:N#Notability_guidelines_do_not_directly_limit_article-content. Isn't importance of sections more an issue of original research, sources, and undue weight than notability? -- Ronz 00:01, 10 April 2007 (UTC)
Wales' quote specifically mentions novel deductions, and my recollection is that this policy used to say the same - but it doesn't seem to now. Anyone know what's going on? I ask because I'm currently involved in a dispute where I'm accused of original research by synthesizing a reliable source and a thesaurus, essentially, as I'm using a synonym of the topic in the source, rather than the topic itself. I can't imagine, for example, that sources that talk about HD 39060 but not Beta Pictoris can't be used at the later, but a strict reading of this policy could be seen to say that. WilyD 21:52, 11 April 2007 (UTC)
This remains a problem. I'm unwilling to change this because I'm involved in a relevent dispute, but right now the policy as read literally strictly forbids the use of multiple sources in an article, and implies it forbids anything but straight copying. Using a thesaurus to reword a statement is synthesis, it's just not original research, nor is it novel synthesis, which is what used to be prohibited. Is there a consensus to make this clear? Will someone fix it? WilyD 20:11, 14 April 2007 (UTC)
In a line of thought that I've been working on recently, I tend to see the prohibition on synthesis as a corollary of neutral point of view. Synthesis is about producing a new point of view, which is contrary to NPOV because our objective is to present existing points of view. Naturally there will be many Wikipedia articles which present information in a form that it hasn't been presented in before, but as long as it's merely putting things alongside each other that's ok. So the question to be asked is, am I using these sources to produce a new point of view? -- bainer ( talk) 16:27, 15 April 2007 (UTC)
WilyD is providing a virtually textbook example of a synthetic statement, it is virtually right out of Kant. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:46, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I think it is forbidden. But see also my comment about rapid transit, below. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:34, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Maybe I am confused. I am talking about this "Apples are red + apples are fruit => some fruit are red" - I do not see this as an example of the dictionary/thesaurus type interpretation, which I believe the policy fully allows. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:28, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
Feel free to help us word the policy more carefully. What is essential is that editors cannot forward their own argument that involves drawing on two different sources, neither of which make the actual argument at issue. If source A says "X was a terrible person" and source B says "X was a horrible person" and a thesaurus says "horrible" is a synonym for "terrible" and an editor makes an edit "Several people have claimed that X is a horrible person, including A,B, C, and D" the edit does NOT violate our policy. If source A says "men are horrible" and source B says "X is a man" and an editor writes "According to A, X is horrible" the edit DOES violate the policy. Is this clear? Does it make sense? If the answer to both questions is yes, and you feel the policy can explain this more clearly, go ahead (I am about to go off-line) Slrubenstein | Talk 17:55, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
I appreciate your honesty and sense of propriety. As to your case, I have a comment: the question is, who is authorized to apply/execute/enforce the convention? My understanding is, not individuals. Perhaps states or international bodies like the UN or the ICC. In this case, it is a violation of our policy for you to use this Convention to decide who has committed racial discrimination. Someone else has to do it. Let me give an analogy: rape is a crime in most states (all?). If X believes s/he was raped by Y, according to the statute, that is just not enough for someone to add to the article on X or Y (if either of them are famous enough to have an article here). Only if X actually accuses Y of rape, and this accusation is recorded in some public document - for example, if the police arrest Y or the DA indicts - can the article report that "X accused Y of rape" - even now, we still wouldn't write, Y raped X. If there is a trial and Y is found guilty, we can write "Y was found guilty of rape." Do you see my point? We are reporting on what an appropriate authority does, we are not actually making the decision as to whether rape occured. Same goes for genocide. No matter how we read the conventions on genocide, wikipedia editors cannot say "Genocide = X" and "X happened to Armenians" therefore "The Armenians were victims of genocie." All we can do is report "The UN (or the ICC or whomever) concluded that the Armenians were victims of genocide." Lacking that, we can also say "historians x, y, and z have concluded that the Armenians were victims of genocide." But we cannot make this conclusion. Does this help? Slrubenstein | Talk 18:33, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The question remains, who, according to the convention, has the authority to enforce or apply the convention? Whatever the convention says, our policy is this: it is not for a Wikipedia editor to make these judgements. This is also an NPOV issue, by the way. If any Iranian institution, state, international organization, real (meaning, not consisting of one or two people who just call themselves this) NGO - or if a journalist, historian, or social or political organization, accuses Iran of having violated the convention, we can report this accusation. And if the international body empowered by the convention to enforce the convention decides that Iran has indeed violated the convention, then we can report that too. But an editor cannot add to an article his/her own views on this matter. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
WilyD, given what you just added, you may be doing yourself a disservice if you are quoting the convention - it means you are adding your own argument, and that violates our policy. What is important is that the US DOS and AI and UNPO have alleged that ethnic minorities face persecution. It doesn't matter whether they are biased, you are talking about a major NGO, a superpower, and an international organization - NPOV does not prevent us from adding sources that are biased, indeed, we assume ALL sources are biased; NPOV insists we correctly identify the POV and provide multiple and if they exist opposing views. So the thing to do is to make clear that these entities have accused Iran of persecuting ethnic minorities - this is a verifiable fact and must be included in the article, no one can remove it. Have any of these entities explicitly cited the convention? If so, you can say so and provide the source - what is important is that a verifiable source is quoting the convention, not you. If none of these entities quote the convention, then you cannot introduce it, that violates policy. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:48, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
For instance, I use this sentence The Iranian regime continues to repress its minority ethnic and religious groups, including Azeris, Kurds, Bahai, ethnic Arabs and others. from a US State Department Report to talk about persecution of ethnic minorities - nowhere does the word racism appear. WilyD 19:02, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
The following section appears to me to be compliant with all of our policies. I do not think that you need to find a source that uses racism since you are not claiming racism - This sentence - "The 1993 review of Iran's compliance with the treaty by the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination found that although the government of Iran condemned racial discrimination in public statements, insufficient information was provided by Iran to properly assess how the convention was being implimented in Iran, and whether Iran was fufilling its obligations under the treaty" - justifies inclusion in the "racism by country" article, and the sentences on persecution of minorities are appropriate. I would not change the wording to add the word "racism" I would just say that the issue of persecution of minorities is relevant enough to merit inclusion as long as you do not change the wording. That is my view. What you need to do is take a break, use our discussion to gather and clarify your thoughts, and file a "request for comment" in which you provide the most concise summary of what is going on and what the key points of contention are. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:09, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
According to article 19 of the Iranian constitution [1]:
the people of Iran belonging to whatever ethnic or tribal group shall enjoy equal rights and colour of skin, race, language and the like shall not be considered as a privilege
Iran is a signatory to the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination. The 1993 review of Iran's compliance with the treaty by the United Nations Committee on the Elimination of Racial Discrimination found that although the government of Iran condemned racial discrimination in public statements, insufficient information was provided by Iran to properly assess how the convention was being implimented in Iran, and whether Iran was fufilling its obligations under the treaty. [2] The Iranian representative respond to the committee saying that there has not been a census of racial demographics in Iran, that the government of Iran does not collect or use racial information in hiring government employees or university admissions and that Iran is not a multiracial society.
Other agencies have alledged that ethnic minorites such as Azeris, Kurds and ethnic Arabs face persecution [3] [4] [5]. Reported issues include Arab land being purchased at low prices or confiscated [6] [7] [8] and the violent repression of Kurds. [9] Iranian President Mahmud Ahmadinejad blamed unspecified "enemies" for increasing ethnic tensions in Iran, while interior minister Mostafa Pour-Mohammadi claimed the United States plans to increase ethnic violence in Iran. [10]
I've proposed (at WP:ATT) that the plagiarism example about synthesis is removed, and propose that it is removed from this page also. I've also proposed a replacement example at Wikipedia talk:Attribution/FAQ#Example(s) of unpublished synthesis and at Wikipedia talk:Attribution#Concerning "Unpublished synthesis of published material", and have had no objections since. There is also some earlier discussion at Wikipedia talk:Attribution/Archive 13#Synthesis section. The change was put on hold a bit because of the merge debate on the attribution policy, I'm raising the issue here again.
To summarise a few of the reasons why I think the current example should be removed:
For our policy pages to do their job, they need to be clearly understood by the reader, and clear, unambigous examples help with this. But this example is unclear and ambiguous, and has fundamental problems that mean that it can't be fixed just by changing a few words. I propose that it is removed from here and WP:ATT (and perhaps replaced by an alternative example at WP:ATT/FAQ).
Does anyone have any comments, objections or alternative suggestions before making the change? Enchanter 00:50, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
As far as I have understood, it is perfectly all right to use a bit of original research in the discussion pages as an argument for a point (unless the point is that original research should be included in the article itself). For instance, when I wrote this, I looked at a few discussion pages and found that most of the discussion was actually more or less original research. Let me give you a fictional example:
On a discussion page reagarding a show that takes place in medieval times A says: "Do you really think we need a 'historical inaccuracies section'?" and B replies: "Well I showed it to three people who watched the show and they thought it was interesting."
B's reply is of course original research. It is perfectly all right for B to write this on the discussion page. It is only when he tries to include his little (three-person) inquiry to the article itself that he commits an error.
This may seem obvious but I have had people complain that an argument on the discussion page was original research and I think this clarification is needed.
Sensemaker
I've got a small problem with a user who keeps insisting on deleting 2 user generated images because they think that they violate WP:OR. Their argument is that because the pictures are "artists renderings" based on witness statements they violate WP:OR, my standpoint is that because the creature that the pictures are depicting doesn't actually (it's a paranormal creature) there is no way that you can possibly have a real photograph.
An outside opinion on this would be useful.
The page in question is Shadow people.
perfectblue 14:48, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I don't really care about the second picture, but the first picture is of good quality, is an represent of shadow people as commonly described, and we have permission to publish it.
What would you consider to be a non WP:OR picture? Honestly? If you're holding out for a real photograph, you're simply not going to get one. Shadow people are basically fictional so an artists impression is permissible. They are the result of an overactive imagination and people's eyes playing tricks on them, and you can't photograph something that doesn't exist.
I can fake a picture of my own based on the description on the page, would you RV that too?
perfectblue 15:09, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
See the Original Images section on [[WP:OR} Pictures have enjoyed a broad exception from this policy, WilyD 17:11, 16 April 2007 (UTC)
I was reverting to the previous version, the same as you. Did you think that I typed all that code in by hand? The second image is completely superfluous as far as I'm concerned. Especially since the page now has an infobox which leaves room (sensibly speaking) for only one image.
Seriously, though "generally considered not to exist", what am I supposed to make of this? We're talking about "shadow people" (scare quotes intentional). There's no general about it. There is no room for shadow people in parapsychology, ghost hunting or even pseudoscience. They are an extension of the bogeyman left over from when people feared the dark.
perfectblue 20:12, 27 April 2007 (UTC)
According to many reliable sources ( [1] [2] [3] and others), rapid transit is "rail or motorbus transit service operating completely separate from all modes of transportation on an exclusive right-of-way". Is it original research to say that since AirTrain JFK meets this definition, it is rapid transit? Does [4], which says that automated light rail (which AirTrain JFK is [5]) is a type of rapid transit, help? -- NE2 07:19, 17 April 2007 (UTC)
On Talk:Ancient_Egypt_and_race#remove_OR disagreement over whether a certain paragraph is Original Research. Urthogie 19:35, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
Regarding this addition of Pmanderson's, [6] is this something we want to include? Sometimes it really is obvious to specialists that "most" of them believe X, even if there's no reliable source that says this explictly. For example, it seems obvious to me that most scientists agree with the man-made global warming hypothesis, although I suspect the ones who don't would say it's not true that most scientists agree with it. I feel we should leave this issue to the actual editors, rather than issuing mandatory advice here out of context. We already have some advice about it in Wikipedia:Words to avoid. Any thoughts? SlimVirgin (talk) 22:21, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
This is moot now as one of my sources has disappeared, but:
If I have a primary source statement that says "If A then B", and I have another source that states "A", then is it acceptable to state these, and then say that "B" is likely? Another editor opined that this might be original research, but it seems that logically I'm creating no new information. scot 22:27, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
I think this section needs to be worded to more strongly discourage against citing oneself. As it reads, if one does not follow the link to Wikipedia:Conflict of interest, it sounds like citing oneself is not a problem. I propose replacing this:
If an editor has published the results of his or her research in a reliable publication, then s/he may cite that source while writing in the third person and complying with our NPOV policy. See also Wikipedia's guidelines on conflict of interest.
With something like this (the bold does not go in, I've just put it here to emphasise change):
If an editor has published the results of his or her research in a reliable publication, then s/he may cite that source while writing in the third person and complying with our NPOV policy. However this is discouraged - see Wikipedia:Conflict of interest
How does that sound? Rocksong 03:12, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
May I suggest this tweaked version? "Editors who have had their material published by reliable publications may cite themselves as sources, while writing in the third person and complying with our NPOV policy, but doing so is not encouraged. See Wikipedia:Conflict of interest." SlimVirgin (talk) 07:51, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I've just noticed that Wikipedia:Conflict of interest has a specific paragraph Wikipedia:Conflict of interest#Citing oneself which puts it fairly well. (Doesn't actually discourage it, but suggests using the Talk page like WilyD says). Perhaps we could just add one of those "See also" templates to point specifically to that paragraph, i.e.:
Rocksong 00:27, 21 April 2007 (UTC)
Could someone please check out List of United States Presidential religious affiliations. It seems to me that significant sections of this article amount to an original Synthesis ... drawing conclusions about the religious affiliations and beliefs of the Presidents based upon primary sources. This isn't a POV issue. My sole concern is with such a massive WP:SYNT violation. Unfortunately, based upon my discussions about similar issues at related articles, I am not sure if the principal editor understands this, or sees what is wrong with the article. I am not sure how to fix this... If we cut the synth, we would basically gut the article (which is definitely noteworthy and should not be deleted). I could use some help trying to explain things and figuring out how to fix them. Thanks Blueboar 14:09, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
I need an admin to take a look at Shadow people and to rule whether the original images that were included there (see history) violate WP:OR.
I've tried to explain to another user how images are mostly exempt so long as they represent a something that has previous been established, but they won't listen.
perfectblue 18:28, 20 April 2007 (UTC)
Please see here. Thanks, -- Sagie 18:46, 22 April 2007 (UTC)
Regarding On using primary sources, I contend that by taking the side of scientists (or creationists) in a socio-political article regarding a controversy involving scientists (and creationists), it is POV--while taking the side of the scientists on a pseudo-scientific article is NPOV. Please either comment here or at the Creation-evolution_controversy talk page. This is an important issue requiring the guidance of disinterested wikipedians as the article attracts a lot of well meaning partisans. Thanks. ImprobabilityDrive 07:06, 25 April 2007 (UTC)
There is a sentence in this policy that reads "Wikipedia articles should rely on reliable, verifiable, published secondary sources wherever possible." What are people's thoughts about removing the words "wherever possible?" Isn't it precisely the csaes where reliance on secondary sources is NOT possible that are most important to avoid in WP, in order to follow the NOR policy? Note that the sentence would still have the word "should" and not an alternative like "must." Thoughts? UnitedStatesian 17:04, 25 April 2007 (UTC)