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That's how it looks to me, and very ugly. But is it only me? Does it look OK to everyone else? Or has my machine dropped acid? qp10qp 03:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Is making a purely mathematical calculation to yield a result original research?
If a verifiable source, say a census bureau gives the population of a geographic entity, and also gives its area, is the mere quotient of the two (yielding the population density) original research if the census bureau does not explicitly provide that number? What can be done consistent with no original research: (a) forgo the information even in our info boxes; (b) search for some other reliable source which has decided to do the math for us (which may not be available, especially as the census bureau tends to be more "up to date" than most other secondary sources, so the calculations from reliable sources may not be made using the same numbers); (c) do the math ourselves <sarcasm>and cite the maker of our calculator the reliable source</sarcasm>. Carlossuarez46 17:48, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
A proposal that WP:NOR and WP:V be combined, and WP:RS ditched. All views welcome. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Per the dispute resolution page, I would like some people with a long standing knowledge of this policy to come and post a couple of comments on the RFC discussion at Talk:Make Love, Not Warcraft#RFC. An example of the content which is under discussion is this version of the page [1] which editors are claiming is acceptable. Thanks, Localzuk (talk) 20:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, this is an attribution question that seems to apply to a combination of WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:RS, but since WP:NOR appears to be the most relevant, it may make sense to post it here. Here is the scenario: assume we have an editor with access to copies of affidavits from an official government agency (in this case, the Patent Office). Assume that we want to rely on these letters as a reference in an article to show that the witness in that affidavit made certain claims (which he affirms in the affidavit). We aren't sure, however, how to verify these documents or obtain them, presumably from the government directly. The editor with access to the original letters uploaded the scanned letters into WP as a PDF file of scanned images. The letters seem like affidavits; they have government seals and signatures and appear authentic. The question is: can the article (which includes some controversial claims) make reference to these letters and point to the Wikicommons scanned image as source? Would doing so violate any existing WP sourcing/attribution policy or guideline? How, if at all, might one go about verifying this document, and does this verification method reasonably fulfill Wikipedia requirements? Thank - Che Nuevara 23:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
(unindent) I would say Crum375's approach would not be satisfactory, because that Wikipedian is trying to be a publisher, but (as far as I know) does not have a reputation as a reliable publisher. -- Gerry Ashton 03:33, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I came here looking for an answer to my question on this. ([semi-]Long version: I requested a record from the Wisconsin Department of Military Affairs in re the Wisconsin State Defense Force. They sent me a letter back saying that the record does exist [that they do not currently have a plan to organise it]. I think that that information would be `useful' to have in the article) Short version: I sent a letter to the government. They sent me a letter back. Anyone can get what they sent back by simply asking them. Can I use this in Wikipedia as a source? (Which from the dicusion, I would say probably) How would I cite it? Benn Newman 01:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I should like a view on this. Nowadays, chess engines are routinely used to analyse games. If an editor adds chess engine analysis to an article I would argue that it is not OR because it is verifiable by another person who can simply run the same program. I should welcome views, please. BlueValour 15:50, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
To avoid OR does not require the source to be cheap or free, it means to have verification. Say a fractal image, the exact same source file can be used to produce the same image. Ease of confirmation does not seem to the be an issue, foriegn language sources are allowed. The only concern is if in fact this game engine can give the same results when ran by other people in a deterministic fashion. HighInBC 03:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, many lab experiments could be duplicated if documented properly. That hardly means that scientists should skip scholarly journals and just add their findings to Wikipedia articles. I'm not seeing why Wikipedia should be a dumping ground for stuff no one else is interested in publishing. Wikipedia is not a blog. -- W.marsh 04:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I think this is easier to understand if we simply think of a computer's opinion as functionally the same as that as any extremely strong chessplayer. For example, if I ask Garry Kasparov what his opinion on a position is, and then report on that, am I doing original research because Garry Kasparov is hard to get access to and so it would be hard to find him and ask him the same question again and again? In fact, it's even less reliable and less verifiable to ask Kasparov, since he might give a different opinion on a different day, and he's extremely difficult to get access to. However, where there is only one Kasparov, anyone can have his own Rybka. I might have made up everything Kasparov said, but if I make up what Rybka says, anyone can run it for himself to expose my fraud.
Really, I think that what I am doing here is interviewing an extremely strong chessplayer and then reporting on what he said. This is not original research any more than that would be. ⟳ausa کui × 15:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
These are all valid points, and I agree with you in general, but what I'm trying to present here is an explanation for my belief that this generalization does not apply to this specific case. The original research policy is intended to stop people from inserting their own ideas and their own work into Wikipedia for the purpose of popularizing them, and that's good. But this is not such a case; I am not putting my own work or my own ideas into Wikipedia. I am using chess engines to supply commentary, which may be illuminating to readers who are not chess professionals into the extremely dense and complicated positions of world-championship level chess. This makes the articles better. In fact, chess engines are more reliable, verifiable, and accessible than the opinions of strong humans. ⟳ausa کui × 18:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:No_original_research#Reputable_publications seems to go back to the top of the page. -- Espoo 10:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Can someone take a look at ghost ramp? Does this violate NOR (or another policy)? -- NE2 00:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
(outdent) This article is essentially a list, and a part of the inclusion criteria (which I quoted previously) is: "The term does not refer to inactive or partially-built ramps which are intended to connect to a roadway which is actively planned or under construction; it only refers to ramps which have been abandoned for some reason." The critical words for me are "actively planned": if there are no plans being made to extend/complete the stub, it would be considered 'ghost' and hence includable. In the single Houston example I checked, it specifically said there are plans being studied for extension/completion, hence I don't see it as eligible, i.e. it is not 'abandoned' by the definition in the intro. What am I missing? Crum375 01:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm also curious about the use of the term "ghost ramp". As far as I know, this term is only used by roadgeeks. -- NE2 21:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Is the result of a vote allowed to override this policy? -- NE2 22:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia contains many "lists of", some trivial, and some more serious. Consider for example List of polydactyl people and List of countries. I am wondering whether most of the lists on Wikipedia constitute original research to some degree, and whether that original research isn't so inextricably linked to some of these lists that they don’t even belong on Wikipedia.
Most lists contain a set of members, and the presence of the member on the list is supposed to attest that the member does indeed have whatever property that list is supposed to identify. In forming lists this way, I see two ways that original research can slip in.
First, determining whether a member does or does not have the necessary property can be difficult. Should a member be on a list if reliable sources contradict each other as to whether they have the property? What is the citation standard for deciding that a member has a property?
Second, the very act of assembling such a list strikes me as consisting of original research, given that the editor(s) are making conscious decision which members should or shouldn’t be on the list.
Consider List of countries – on first glance it seems this should be an easy list to compile. But instead, the article contains a lengthy subsection explaining what criteria were used for putting members on the list. In effect, original research to create a Wikipedia-specific definition of “Country”. Someone, by listing Pridnestrovie for example, has done original research to decide that Wikipedia can recognize this entity as a country.
I suspect, if NOR is truly to be respected, the only “Lists of” that Wikipedia should contain are those where the list is compiled and maintained by a reliable source outside of Wikipedia, and we merely reproduce that list.
This comes to mind in light of the above discussion of “ghost ramp”. Although that article doesn’t explicitly call itself a “list of”, it is in effect one, and that seems to be where the NOR issue arises. - O^O
SlimVirgin ( talk · contribs) has been making major changes to this policy without prior discussion here. Take a look at these extensive diffs since October 16th. SlimVirgin had zero edits to the talk page during that period, but made approximately 24 changes to the policy itself.
These changes need to be carefully examined by others. -- John Nagle 07:27, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I wish to invite discussion on the following point. The Wikipedia Original Research Policy states in part: "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article."
I have recently become involved in a discussion on the Stephen Barrett Talk Page [ [4]] where I have been accused of doing Original Research. I have attempted to state two juxtaposed facts A and B, but have not stated a conclusion. The ABC version of the policy as presently stated is enforceable. A policy which said that editors could not state two juxtaposed facts A and B because readers would draw a conclusion from them would not me enforceable, since readers will inevitably draw conclusions from juxtaposed facts. Here are some examples:
When we read an encyclopaedia article about Hitler we inevitably think: "Hitler must have been mad" yet I shouldn't think the word "mad" is used to describe him in an encyclopaedia article.
To take another example. There exist charlatans who claim to have supernatural powers which they know they do not posseess. Nobody will state in his Wikipedia contribution outright: "Mr X is a liar and a charlatan." But the longer these people go through their careers the more facts accumulate about them. So anyone who reads a Wikipedia article about someone like this will read a collection of facts from which readers will almost inevitably infer that the subject is a charlatan.
So, should the OR policy only ban explicit inference as I say ? Or are we going to get into grey areas and matters of nice judgement decided on a case by case basis ? Robert2957 08:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
No, I wouldn't wish to arrange passages to lead people to conclusions. I have not admitted this. What I am trying to argue is that an editor should not be accused of OR if he merely states two juxtaposed facts from which readers happen to make an inference, or if he juxtaposes a fact of his own with another editor's fact. Close consideration of my example about charlatans should make this clear. Any sourced and verified fact should be acceptable. Conclusions for which no authority is quoted, of course, should not be allowed. The ABC rule is OK. An AB version is not. Robert2957 20:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
With all respect I am here raising an issue of very high generality which is completely independent of any one controversy about any one website. I am saying that an NOR policy of the ABC type is justiciable, and an NOR policy of the AB type isn't. This question not only can, but should, be pursued independently of any particular discussion. I don't want to bring a particular argument about a particular example into this. If I did so any number of other particular OR discussions could be brought into this discussion and those particular discussions should take place on their respective talk pages.
Robert2957 21:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
To answer Robert's question to me, if an editor justaposes a and b and readers draw conclusion c, then the article is presenting original research even if the editor who made the juxtaposition did not have this intention. If the editor did not have the intention, surely s/he would have no objection to the edit (juxtapostion) being changed so as not to violate the policy. This as abstract as I can get. Slrubenstein | Talk 08:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Precisely what I am trying to do is to establish and ABC rather than an AB version on the NOR policy as the official policy of Wikipedia. Any previous controversy I may have been involved in is irrelevant to the discussion I am trying to initiate here. I do not think that Wikipedia is the place to "get certain facts" mentioned.I understand the purpose of Wikipedia. Robert2957 10:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Jesup, the singular is correct here. "... or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published arguments, ideas, data, or theories that serves to advance a position."
To use serve is equivalent to saying: "Any man or woman who arrive on time get the job." SlimVirgin (talk) 17:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I have reason to believe that this policy needs some review to discss the incorporation of factual original research. An editor recently put a tag on a very small article I began to write stating that it needed a complete rerwite because it didn't state sources etc. and it looked like original research, which it was. I have no problem with people questioning, and have no problem with knowing when I'm wrong, when somthing needs to be changed or when something needs to be done differently. I do, however, have a problem with this policy for a few reasons:
I apologise for my inability to spell and write with correct grammar to a highly educated level, if my parents had the money perhaps that would be different. And I apologise for not making clearer sense and organising my opinion so it is easier to read, but I figure, if you have taken the time to read this then perhaps you might understand what I'm saying, if you didn't read it then your attention span is too short to be discussing wikipedia policy.
Thankyou for your time. Nick carson 06:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Cross posted to WP:RS, WP:OR and Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine. There is a dispute going on at Talk:Depo Provera#Disadvantages and side effects WP:NOR violations. One user found primary sources, reliable journal articles, that said depo provera may do certain negative things. Another user is disputing this, citing original research. The argument, I guess, is that the 1st user is interpreting the source, and drawing conclusions not published anywhere else. The studies only dealt with rats (not humans), and there is nothing in the patient drug information (or any other way to verify the claims outside of the studies in question). The logic goes that making a connection that a study dealing with rats may effect the use of this drug in humans as a contraception is original research. Furthermore, it may be pushing a POV that this drug is unsafe by mentioning these studies (that are not verified outside of the individual study, and not mentioned in patient drug information). I feel like I am repeating myself, sorry. The counter argument is that a) citing primary sources is a good thing b) the claims are cited and verifiable and reliable, fulfilling almost every wikipedia criteria for inclusion. So I guess there are two issues. Is using the information in this manner original research? And is it giving undue weight to a minority view by citing obscure studies like this? Sorry if I am missing anything or misrepresenting a side. Please direct comments to Talk:Depo Provera#Disadvantages and side effects WP:NOR violations. Thanks!-- Andrew c 03:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the imput. When writing up my summary request for comment, I was thinking that would be a good solution. Don't drawn new conclusions from the study, or make it seem as if the results fit under a category they don't, but instead relay them in a manner that is representative of the study in question (this fixes the OR and RS concerns, but still, there are questions about notability and NPOV). --Andrew c 15:24, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Um, SlimVirgin hasn't said that the one sentence study summaries in "Disadvantages" exist a category in which they shouldn't.
Also, please see your own comments regarding the herpes rat study, the "long quote" dispute in which the anon previously contested the inclusion of the herpes rat study (only in hostile edit summaries, not on talkpage) on the grounds that the source was "in the opinion of a native american women's health care activist," and would not stop making what could be considered possibly racist and sexist ad hominem attacks against the source until it was pointed out firmly to him that the source cited more than one pubmed ref/study in her biblio--i.e., the very herpes rat study citation being contested now as "OR" you agreed was appropriate in both category and one-sentence summary, and is being brought up again now...
What SV does do, I think, is make the excellent point that an article doesn't have to be a rehash/mirror of a drug product insert or a textbook, nor should it be...?
As far as "notability" goes--this hasn't been brought up before. What are you referring to? (And, as far as I know, "notability" is a concept which refers to BLP.?)
No NPOV argument has been made either--merely an ad hominem attack against me which violates WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA by the anon who uses the string of IPs (the same one who previously made the "native american women's health care activist" ad hominem attack against the source in the herpes rat study citation...)
I think it might be really helpful, Andrew, for you to read all the studies re Depo and STDS, to help elevate discussion/move it back to sources and facts at Depo talkpage--the first cite in disadvantages re Depo/STDs was not added by me, but linked to the others (Depo appears to suppress immunity in general, making users more susceptible to pretty much all of them...) Cindery 19:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Take any recent (or not-so-recent) computer game or Japanese comic-book character. Or a pop song. Look them up in Wikipedia. Original research, almost all of them, with one fan adding a fact or asserted fact and the next fan adding to that one. Leave aside all this tallk about "published, refereed research." You will find it lacking in many if not most WP articles. I don't want to be flip, but Get Real. Actually LOOK at any one of the Random Articles in the column at the left; go ahead — choose one. Chances are it will be almost totally based on Uncited Sources. If you find one that's NOT, list it here. Sincerely, and with great good will, GeorgeLouis 06:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that people should not be allowed to put in original research. I WAS planning to ask Jason Lewis about his potential role when I see him again, but now I suppose it is useless. (I met him at Allen Savage's). Just because information isn't published doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Superstormfanatic ( talk • contribs) 01:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Do census data and official crime stats constitute primary sources? Is it OK to say 'X is the 3rd largest city in country Y, according to the latest census results'. Or is it OK to say that 'city Y has the third highest crime rate according to national crime statistics.' Curtains99 09:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I am intending to translate this page into Urdu for Wikipedia Urdu. In this regard I have one question.
Does this policy cover those situations where a new translation is created for foreign words/terminologies for which the language doesn't already have any words?
There are hundreds of scientific words and terminologies in English for which there are absolutely no replacements/translations in Urdu. I have noticed some users at Wikipedia Urdu are creating/inventing translations for such words and terminologies. These translations have never been published before anywhere else. I think it is a serious situation should be addressed at the highest possible level of Wikipedia administration as, in my opinion, it is an open violation of No original research policy.
Szhaider 23:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I've just edited the policy to include info on translations of outside text and using translations by Wikipedians of outside text as sources. Specifically, I've said it's out-of-bounds. Edit is here. It's new, but I'm trying to be bold and I think it's a good idea. Even if this is eventually beaten down, there should be a section saying it's ok. This came up over a minor content dispute I'm in about adding an original translation to an article, and to my surprise, I was informed that it's not covered one way or another by this policy.
I really think it should be forboden, as it's no more verifiable than an original scientific experiment is. After all, when you analyze (even without performing) an experiment on your own, you're "translating" the data into a readable conclusion. So why should an editor be able to translate something on his/her own and include it as verifiable fact?
No translation of significant size is going to be identical, similar to how no opinion on global warming statistics, symbolic effect in The Scarlet Letter, or the signifance on the recent swing in power in the U.S. Congress will be identical. Therefore, Wikipedia should rely on verifiable, outside translations only. 66.231.130.70 01:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Link to section is here. Also please don't blindly revert me if you disagree, I've edited a sentence elsewhere that is a useful clearing of of ambiguity. 66.231.130.70 01:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I am trying to begin the painful work of working through the backlog of pages tagged as OR. Most of them seem either incorrectly tagged or tagged without any further comments on the talk page. If anyone would like to help out it would be great because I really do feelthat the OR tag should be temporary and not something just slapped on the article because someone disagreed with it or didn't know how to tag it correctly. For example, a lot of pages are tagged as OR when the correct more indicative tag would be to tag it as unreferenced or containing weasel words. The OR tag is a pretty serious one and should be used with caution and an explanation why it was used. MartinDK 15:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Could someone please define this for me? Is this material someone submitted for publication themself, or a company publishing something themself, etc? Thanks! Q Jenkins 15:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, so that excludes company self published material, like, an instruction manual or a FAQ? Also, I know this probably isn't the place, but how do you do the indent? Q Jenkins 16:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I am trying to translate this policy page in to Urdu for Urdu WP so that I, as an admin there, can begin to force it specially on those who are using WP for publishing their own theories and agendas. However, everyday when I begin to trnaslate a new paragarph I notice that previous translation is out-of-date because some one has already changed the policy page. Can an admin point me to the final and finest form of this page. As it is an official policy, every word should be carefully translated which is becoming hard with daily changes in the project page. Szhaider 05:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
The NOR rule has been invoked to try to disallow inserting comments which are direct quotes from reliable sources. There is a big difference between advancing an argument about the Chicago Manual of Style and noting that "the Chicago Manual of Style defines plagarism "using a source's information, ideas, words, or structure without citing them"" NBeale 10:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Specifically, it has been suggested that if fact A is in an article and fact B is added then this "serves to advance the argument (cleverly left implicit)" However this would be an argument against inserting any facts into an article since adding any fact can be seen as advancing an implicit argument. So with some trepidation I've tried to make this clear in the article. What do people think? NBeale 17:27, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey everyone.
Just wanted people's opinion on an issue about WP's OR policy. I am currently preparing an article on Erdheim-Chester disease. Unfortunatly, due to the rareness of ECD, there is no widely accepted treatment. I have presented the treatments that have been tried, with varrying levels of success. There is also some case studies available that discribe various treatments and their levels of success for a particular individual. This could be considered OR, however, I feel that it would be useful to the reader to add, for example: "Two patients were reported to respond to prolonged therapy with vinblastine and mycophenolate mofetil (Jendro et al., 2004)." Is there a way to disclaim that treatements for ECD are still under research and there is no consensus amongst physicians? I'd prefer to add the information and disclaim it, than simply leave it out. Let me know. All the best! --JE.at.UWO U| T 17:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Newspaper accounts are primary sources. An analysis of an event, on the other hand, is a a secondary source. From secondary sources (my highlight):
An example of a secondary source would be the biographyof a historical figure which constructed a coherent narrative out of avariety of primary source documents, such as letters, diaries,newspaper accounts, and official records. It would also likely utilizeadditional secondary sources (such as previously-written biographies)as well. Most, but not all, secondary sources utilize extensive citation.
I corrected acordingly ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
An example:
A 1941 newspaper account of the Perl Harbor attack is a primary source. An comparison of the attack on Perl Harbor with the 9/11 attacks, published in a newspaper or magazine are a secondary sources. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The fact that we must paste from other websites makes Wikipedia look like a giant plagiarizing bulletin board rather then a Encyclopedia. The fact that some 12 year old who posts from an article based off some news blog is considered more reliable then a college professor is an insult to all definitions of knowledge.
There are plenty of well educated people making great contributions that get reverted simply because they are not plagiarized. Also, it seems as if there is a secret rule stating that any fact not found on Google must be a lie. Not to mention the sheer amount of information that is not on the web; but in Books, Labs, and in real life. This rule is entirely biased.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Roxanne Edits ( talk • contribs) 00:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Are my statements at User talk:Route 82#Re: New Jersey Route 60 correct - that a detailed map of a route that was only proposed in general terms is just as bad as a detailed description? -- NE2 00:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Jossi, a newspaper story is a secondary source, unless it's an old one, in which case it acts as a primary source about the period. Regarding recent stories, an eyewitness's statement about a traffic accident is a primary source. A newspaper's report about that eyewitness's statement, and about the accident in general, is a secondary one. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The policy provides (apparently as guidance rather than a hard and fast rule) that "edits that rely on primary sources should only make descriptive claims that can be checked by anyone without specialist knowledge". This guidance is regularly, and quite correctly not adhered to. For example, a firsthand report of a sports match published in a newspaper is regularly used to evidence the score and what happened in the game, even though those without the specialist knowledge of that sport would not understand it. From a primary source saying that the result of a Gaelic football match was Team A 2-13, Team B 1-17, it is perfectly reasonable for those writing on Gaelic football to conclude Team B won - yet that's not clear at all if you know nothing about Gaelic football. From this scorecard it is reasonable for someone who knows about cricket to conclude that Jim Laker had an absolutely amazing match. But someone unfamiliar with the game may question why that is so if he only scored 3!
I suggest changing the text so that it better reflects actual (quite reasonable) practice. Maybe "edits that rely on primary sources should only make claims that can readily be deduced by anyone with specialist knowledge in the field"? jguk 17:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Splitting hairs here? I do not think that anyone will dispute the score of a football match as reported by a newspaper on any grounds of NOR... ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Someone made a trailer--an original work of art--for a film about a guy named Brent Corrgian. A guy who appointed himself the YouTube police tagged if for copyright verification. When the author verfied authorship/licensing, the YouTube police guy said then it's OR and still can't be used. I say it's a primary source and fine as an external link; original art in which the subject of the article appears advances no position and is in no way OR. (YouTube-police-guy might have had a vanity argument, except that the link has now been posted by someone else--me--and I don't know the author. Or a commercial argument--except that the film isn't finished and has no studio distributor, ad budget, marketing plan or source of revenue--the trailer at this point is just a stand-alone original work of art on the indie-film level, which enhances the quality of the article as a relevant, valuable, interesting external link.) Please see: [8] Opinions? Cindery 21:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
According to the view-meter, it's been viewed more than 10,000x. That's 10,000 vs. one--I'd say you're outvoted by a rather large consensus about whether it has any value. But, this is the NOR board. You autocratically informed the author of the link that it was orginal research--after telling him or her that if they objected to your deletion of YouTube links, that they should post on your project talkpage so "experts" could review their objections. I think the NOR talkpage is a better place to review OR accusations. Fellow editors can discuss, weigh-in; not a single self-appointed "expert" who refused to even discuss the matter with the author. Cindery 03:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
If it is a primary source or not, is irrelevant. YouTube videos are not reliable sources for anything.
≈ jossi ≈
t •
@ 18:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The Brent Corrigan video was uploaded by the original author, and he or she vouched that every element of it is his or her original work--hence the OR accusation. (As for YouTube in general as a reliable source, there is the issue of substantiality. For example, ripping a YouTube clip of 2 minutes of a 70 minute documentary is very arguably fair use. There are several legal elements to a copyright vio case. It is highly likely that in if a tiny segment of an oscure political documentary--or an old commerical--is ripped into a YouTube clip, that the copyright holder would be happy for the exposure, and hence deleting-on-source-bias would serve no one. In additon, "fair use" and sampling are very big issues right now in alternative media. "The elements can be manipulated by anyone" is a disturbingly oversimplified argument--there's nothing inherently wrong with the fact that the medium is manipulable by the masses, and Wikipedia would lose a lot of valuable links/enriching sources if a source bias persists. Rather than a blanket bias against YouTube as a medium, the links, when contested, should--like blogs and personal websites--be decided on their individual merits. If, for example, somone taped all the old Max Fleischer cartoons off of tv--that would be great. They aren't under copyright. If someone ripped 10 minutes of Alexander Nevsky and subbed in their own original kazoo composition as audio, that would be great--Nevsky isn't under copyright either: "Ten minute clip of Alexander Nevsky, with original music by <blank>," etc. For anyone who knows anything about film, YouTube is an amazing delivery medium--all kinds of old 8mm and 16mm film people have personally shot can be digitized and YouTubed merely for accessibility--like photos taken by Wikipedians, these are invaluable visual resources, which editors have to offer under GFDL.) But, to bring it back to OR-- I see a problem with insisting that the author vouch that it is not a copyright, and then when he or she does, accusing them of OR--so, if someone else posts the link, it's a potential copyvio because YouTube is the source, and if the original author posts it, it's OR--that's a catch-22, not a means to verify the reliability of a source... Cindery 22:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
"Fair use has its problems" is better phrased/understood as "fair use has its complexities"--which is an argument in favor of caution and discussion, as opposed to deletion-on-source-bias (deleting because the source is YouTube). "Spoofing or tampering with video content" could also be better phrased. Altering content, such as ripping a clip, making a collage, or subbing audio, is not at all necessarily bad. "External links" is primarily what we've been discussing, but video can be a great cited source, especially for places and people that no longer exist. See: Barrington Hall--three floors of murals were wiped out/painted over in 1989. Only one 8mm film exists of the murals. As visual documentation that something existed, the film isn't just a good source, it's the only source--no photos capture the building in long takes, showing that it was a building, that one mural bled into another for a city-block. In the current ongoing purge of YouTube links, no one seems aware or has even mentioned that video can exist as photographs do--totally noncontroversial excellent sources. Original photographs are just as manipulable by authors as video--I can photoshop in whatever I want, etc., and yet we appreciate these photos, and are not purging them en masse because they are original works which could have been manipulated without establishing that they were manipulated in some way which undercuts their validity as sources. Cindery 23:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
No, I think you're just making an erroneous conflation, based on assumptions, that the lack of control over the YouTube= "most cases will be violations." A lot of them could be, but the source itself does not equal violations, and a source bias is harmful because it implies to editors that the problem is the source, not the potential V/NOR/C policy issues. People shouldn't be discouraged from using such an incredibly useful medium; they should be encouraged to evaluate the use of YouTube as link or source based on policy. Mass deletions of YouTube links don't do much to raise awareness about policy and how to make sure useful links can meet policy, they just imply that there's something inherently wrong with YouTube, and there's not. Any copyright holder with an objection to use of any image used on YouTube has clear redress to both YouTube and Wiki--aggressive before-the-fact purging isn't necessary--the purge should be less aggressive/is erring to far on the deletionist side, and is giving people the impression that YouTube can't be used, not that YouTube should be used judiciously. In the Corrigan case, I see no OR issue--what I see is source bias. Cindery 01:15, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
That's funny--my feeling is genuinely the opposite; that you are not addressing concerns raised. Perhaps it clarifies matters to state that a template in is in wide circulation stating that "99% of YouTube links" should not be used (and the most conservative--and biased/unscientific-- estimate of the person who is conducting the purge is 90%...) "Editors" are not erring on the side of deletion--a small handful of people are deleting all the YouTube links without careful evaluation or discussion on talkpages of articles in --they have stopped even posting a warning template (with an exaggerated biased number of 99%).
I think I have made it clear that my position on YouTube links as sources is that they can be invaluable as visual documentation, as photos are. (But I see YouTube overall as potentially useful external links, as blogs and websites can be.)
YouTube videos should never be used as a source to support a claim in an article, unless it is absoluelty certain that there are no copyvio issues and the material is highly relevant and not available from another, more reliable source--there is no disagreement here (except with "more reliable source")--the disagreement pertains to how this is being established. Talkpages of articles are appropriate; mass deletions by people who do not participate in article talkpage discussions/don't know anything about the subject or the link are not. A less biased warning template should be used, and discussion allowed. If there's no discussion after 2 weeks or so, I don't see a problem with deleting the link; and I don't see a problem with deleting a napster-ish link like a whole recent popsong without warning. The problem is that the YouTube purge is over-deletionist and fairly hostile--it is not educating editors about how to use YouTube per policy, it's just giving them the idea that YouTube shouldn't be used, and that is both incorrect and harmful. Moreover, reasonable objections to deletions--such as, the owner has copyright and is willing to license link under GDFL!--are being ignored in favor of trying to delete all YouTube links period. "More reliable source" is just source bias. YouTube offers stable storage and easy accessibilty for film/video--it's not any less or more reliable as a storage/delivery medium than a website. Cindery 02:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Exactly--just because you can't upload content to YouTube and tag it as GDFL doesn't mean you can't release it under GDFL (and one would assume that if the author uploaded their own YouTube work to Wiki, they were licensing it, since editing Wikipedia is done under the agreement "You agree to license your contributions under GDFL." ) Establishing that the Wiki publisher and the YouTube publisher are the same, and/or that the Wiki publisher has copyright/author permission/knowledge should be established via discussion, not mass deletions which imply the problem is YouTube, rather than policy. As far as I know, this is the beginning of centralized discussion of YouTube as a source (And sorry it has gone off-topic per OR--it should be discussed on all the policy boards, though, esp RS and C.) The problem with "burden to argue for inclusion" is that the mass-deleters are deleting even when there are valid objections, and directing complaints to their own talkpage, not policy boards or article talkpages, where they claim they are "experts," and tell people, for example, that if there's no copyright issue it's OR...A lot of valuable external links and sources could be lost that way. Cindery 02:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
We can validate the content used in videos the same way photo content is validated--case by case, based on knowledge of the subject. Videos--whether they are linked to from a website or YouTube (and there is no difference except convenience and stability of storage)-- can be cited as sources to verify that someone or somthing existed; that something happened; that something changed or is gone but was once there. Stop-motion photography can illustrate how something happens, like cell division..."He read at the Bowery Poetry Club in 2006" can be footnoted with a video of him reading at the Bowery Poetry Club...
Any link that is good will be surely sooner or later added back if it fits the criteria.--you're ignoring the original point made--when the author of the Brent Corrigan video verified the GDFL license and added back the link, the same person deleted it and told him/her it was OR. He deleted it after I noticed what was going on, and didn't stop until I said I was crossposting to NOR. He is not objecting to the use of the video as a source--he's deleting an external link on the grounds that it is OR (after telling the author to go to his page, not a policy board, for "review" by "experts" if there were any objections to this. It's fairly obvious that the person who posted the Brent Corrigan link thinks the deletion, the "No YouTube 99% of the time" template, and the review process by "experts" is "official"/Wiki policy--and it's not. That certainly makes adding back links problemmatic. The YouTube purge is not being conducted according to policy. If there is an urgent need to mass-delete YouTube links, policy should address that.) Cindery 17:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Fox news certainly "edits and modifies" the news any way they see fit. :-) But, the point is that there is no difference between uploading a video to a personal website and uploading it to YouTube--the source is not the issue. Establishing that the source is valid/use of the source is valid has to do with policy, not YouTube as a source; the same policies apply to any use of a source as apply to use of YouTube as a source. (And personal publishers are just as liable as whole news outlets; lack of legal accountability is not relevant). Deleting YouTube links on sight from BLP articles because they are YouTube links is not a good idea--a query should be placed on talkpage, unless you know enough about the subject to know that the YouTube link is or contains false and defamatory information. There is, for example, a YouTube link of Joshua Clover reading at the Bowery Poetry Club in 2006. The author is happy it's there; the subject is happy it's there; readers are happy it's there. No one who was at the reading--including the subject and the author-- believes the link is anything other than a completely unmodified recording of the reading. In the absence of any complaint from the subject, the author, regular editors of the article, or any editor who happens by and thinks the video of the reading is somehow a BLP violation, removing it simply because it is a YouTube link would be idiotic, and fighting to reinstate the link would waste the time of the subject, the author, and the regular editors of the article. If there is some need to verify all YouTube links in advance, that should be clearly addressd in policy--for example, by requiring that YouTube authors post on talkpages of articles "I license this under GDFL" after they have posted a Youtube link, or someone else has posted their link. Everything that is put into an article is subjected to scrutiny under all policies. Using YouTube is not a de facto policy violation--so unless there's a policy violation problem with a YouTube link, YouTube links should not be deleted just because they are YouTube links. Cindery 18:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
That is flatly untrue, per RS--YouTube can be used as a source, because film and video can be used as source; it just usually isn't--like blogs and personal websites, YouTube is more oft used in external links, but there are exceptions--and they should be clearly delineated, with examples, in policy. I'm still waiting on any discussion regarding whether use of a (GDFL-verified) external link wholly owned by the author is OR. (clearly, it's not OR. Like blogs or websites relevant to the subject of an article, a YouTube external link about the subject is not OR). Cindery 18:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
No, none of that is true. YouTube can be used as a primary source, and V delineates exceptions. And GDFL is applicable to YouTube. The feasible way to verify GDFL is to query on the talkpage of articles about whether the YT/Wiki publisher were the same, and/or if the Wiki publisher has GDFL permission from the author and can attest to that. Assuming that the GDFL license is not in effect because the source is YT is in direct violation of C policy: "It is not the job of rank and file Wikipedians to police copyright violations"--thing to do is query on talkpage or make a report at Copyright problems.
Per Rs, this is all there is about YT:
YouTube
Some concerns have been raised about the use of YouTube as a source. YouTube is a website where the contributors are unknown, and in which material that may be useful to Wikipedia articles is almost always suspect of copyright violations. As such, linking to video content in YouTube should almost always be avoided as a source.
Per V, this would apply to self-published YT:
Self-published sources in articles about themselves
Self-published material, whether published online or as a book or pamphlet, may be used as sources of information about the author, so long as there is no reasonable doubt who wrote the material, and so long as it is:
Cindery 19:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
..the feasible way, per copyright policy, is to query on the talkpage of the article, not delete the links on source bias. If some of the work really is an infringement, such as a recent pop song, that would be separate from the problem of establishing who the publisher is/GDFL. If there's a question about copyvio, such as GDFL, copyright policy clearly states that a query should be placed on talkpage and/or a cr report made. I think V/NOR/C and RS should all be updated to address YouTube a little better; and that it should be made very clear on pages where the mass-deleting is being done, via template, that "No YouTube" is not a Wiki policy, but that use of YouTube is covered under extant policy. Cindery 20:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
While I am extremely confident and hopeful that we will reach agreement, I still think we're missing each other--the problem with the mass purge isn't at all the purge of clearly suspected copyvios, like whole pop songs (a lot of YT links are whole popsongs/music videos, and I see no problem with delete-first let the publisher justify it, and I think the YT purge is very helpful to Wiki in the thankless task of getting rid of those. It would be a waste of everyone's time for talkpage discussion to go down about those--edit summary more than sufficient.) The problem I see is specifically with the no-GDFL assumption, and no explanation about how to affirm GDFL license. They're mass-deleting with the edit summary: rm per EL; no licensing info--that's the technicality they're using. Talkpage template and discussion should happen for cases where the only suspected copyvio is a question about authorship/GDFL. I don't even see the need for mass deletions for that reason--better to wait for complaints. It makes a lot of busywork for everyone, and leaves editors confused--either they think YT is not allowed period, or they're left asking, well, how can I license it under GDFL? And I see a problem with the bias in the YT purge--for example, instead of explaining, oh, just verify GDFL on the talkpage, the project finds another excuse--like OR--to try to purge Wiki of YouTube. If there's a huge GDFL prob with YT, that should be explained in policy for editors: put a talkpage notice giving license, etc. Cindery 20:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
GDFL can be ascertained by affirming that the YT publisher and the Wiki publisher are the same, or that the Wiki publisher has the permission of the YT author, if they are not the same. The problem is: because it is not possible to look at YT link on Wiki and determine that the author of YT and Wiki is the same, there can be questions. Since it is not known either way, it is not a clear copyright suspicion--it's a question which should be asked. In order to help editors answer this question, a clear explanation should be provided on the talkpages of articles where the question is asked, and in policy. Say, for example, that I want to publish a YT external link. I do so. It is purged with no talkpage discussion or explanation--just "EL-license" summary. I figure out what "no licensing information" means exactly and what to do about it, and post on talkpage that I am the author of both the YT link and the Wiki edit including it, satisfying GDFL license requirement. If it were already explained in policy "because GDFL license cannot be absolutely determined from YT, please post on talkpage re authorship when including a YT link," that would make everything much simpler. It is not C policy to delete questionable cr violations, but to inquire on talkpage. When the YT links are deleted without discussion or even a template, people do not get any info about what they should do to affirm GDFL. In the gap, some great links will be lost to confusion--in addition to C policy about talkpage posting re cr vios, that's the argument in favor of querying instead of deleting wothout notice or discussion (esp. in absence of policy info re YT/GDFL). A great deal of YT links are not under copyright and will never be under copyright--the vast majority of YT publishers are releasing their work into the public domain. As a self-publishing medium, the cr issues don't pertain much to the users, but to cases where the users are using material they don't hold copyright to under fair use. Publishing on both YT and Wiki is not a reasonable suspicion of copyvio on its face--unless the material has cr issues, it is extremely unlikely that GDFL is an issue. Nobody is putting anything on YT and hoping it won't be linked anywhere else--people publish on YT for public domain. Cindery 21:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Youtube can any type of source: primary or secondary. If someone publishes an original video on Youtube, it is primary source. If someone posts something from TV, it is a secondary source. -- Ineffable3000 23:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I propose that we add a section that says:
Self-publishing credibility depends on the credibiliy of the source, and what the source is used for. For example, an acclaimed poet who videorecords another acclaimed poet and posts it on YT can be evaluated differently for source credibility than <insert less credible example>. The source in that case is not YT, but the acclaimed poet. If the self-published source is used in a BLP, it's a great source for what they subject has said, believes, etc--that's why a notable subject's blog is included often in external links.
The problem with current YT purge is the terms--"EL, sites that don't provide licensing information," which directs the editor to the EL guidelines, which currently read "YouTube should not be linked"--but no policy states that YT should not be linked. Using EL is a case of using a guideline to trump policy, and guidelines don't trump policy. Any YT link with a material suspected copyvio, like music video etc., should be deleted with edit summary: suspected copyright violation. Any YT links for which there is merely a GDFL question should be left alone, or a query posted. The EL guideline is currently inaccurate per policy, and directing people to it after deleting with that justification wrongly implies that YT can't be linked. Cindery 00:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I do not think it is ok in any situation. If you wrote a notable article, someone else will write about it. -- Ineffable3000 00:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I would say the discussion has only just begun where the EL guideline is being abused to contradict the C policy--it may even be a huge violation of WP:POINT. Cindery 02:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
No, I'm pointing out that the purge has been pushed to an extreme--deleting under EL with EL link takes editors to the EL guideline, which is currently in conflict with/contradicts policy. Cindery 02:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
No, you're just wrong--the current wording of EL is that Youtube cannot be linked, and that is not policy--YT is not prohibited. Moreover, the most conservative estimate from the person doing the deleting is that at least 10% of the YT links are legit. (He thinks he's deleted about 2000, so that's 200 legit links--I think it's a significant underestimate because he's not carefilly evaluating them.) There should be a clear copyvio suspicion per content, and the deletions should be labelled as suspected copyvios--deleting them under EL is is not policy, and harms Wikipedia by misinforming editors--the problem is not YT per EL, and deleting YT under EL doesn't tell people how to use YT for the benefit of Wikipedia. Cindery 03:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
No, following research at EL, I have discovered that the EL policy was changed about two weeks ago to exclude YT on the EL technicality, so I am addressing the change there (where a regular EL guideline discussion page editor noted in the first place Nov 3 that no change was necessary, because C covers C violations already). This is very recent--excluding YouTube on an EL technicality--and the same two people who made the change then immediately began deleting all YT links as EL violations. YouTube copyvios are already covered under C policy; excluding them under EL contradicts every other policy--because YT links are not prohibited by policy simply because they are YT links. I noticed also that you were quick to jump into the initial YouTube discussion at AN before it went to EL--you appear to have a strong anti-YouTube bias. Cindery 06:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
A source which is "notorious" for violating copyright laws can be dealt with under WP:C. As the EL guideline editor said on Nov 3: copyvio links are already forbidden, and it isn't a specific problem with Youtube but with all publicly contributed sites As far as "readers who respect authors" goes, Gerry doesn't seem to have seen the many valuable self-publishing examples unique to YouTube, which make it an amazing resource with potential to be more amazing ( Geriatric 1927?) Propagating a source bias denigrates the legitimate and valuable uses of YouTube; it doesn't merely get rid of the lame music-vid copyvios. Daily Kos is a blog, and needn't be confused with thousands of lamer blogs merely because it is a blog--we didn't ban blogs, and we didn't ban YouTube. No self-publishing mediums have been banned, there are rules for their use and inclusion. The problem here is that a tiny handful of people, without much discussion, changed the EL guideline two weeks to contradict policy, and are mass deleting using the guideline, which is creating confusion and could result in the loss of excellent sources and links. And yes, jossi was one of the original handful--see his talkpage and the Admin Noticeboard discussion. Jossi thinks YouTube is a disaster in the making, which justifies a pre-emptive strike. Again, deleting the copyvio links is a great project. Banning YouTube on a technicality is not--there are too many valuable exceptions, and there is no reason to treat YouTube differently than any other self-publishing medium. As Wjohnson rightly pointed out, it is the underlying author who is the source, not YouTube. Conflating all those authors with the bad apples who upload music vids is wrong and does a disservice to the quality of Wikipedia. Cindery 22:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
...now you're going way out on a hypothetical limb. By that argument: the internet could be hacked at anytime! Because of this vulnerability, the very possibility that anyone could hack into and change it, nothing is truly verifiable or reliable, and we may as well stop now. I mean, how do we really know when we link to the NYT that the Flying Spaghetti Monster didn't rerrange all the words with his noodly appendage after we linked it??? :-) It's an epistemological mystery that can never be solved by mere mortals...Meanwhile, the EL policy was just changed--it no longer states that YT is prohibited under EL.
ps: Have you read the YouTube article?--"reputable news organizations" license content to YT. And many self-publishers with perfectly fine reps publish on YT for public domain. The assumption that because people can publish whatever they want, therefore we cannot trust them is predicated on the assumption that freedom=unreliability. (I think there's an opposite argument to be made--that a lack of freedeom; being financially beholden to the advertising dollars of large corps-- can adversely affect reliability.) But, anyway, most YT links will be used/are used as external links, not sources. If the subject, the author, or any editor thinks that such a link is unreliable in any way, they can, do, and will speak up about it--as they do for blogs and websites. YT is no more nor less a reliable source; anything can be changed on a blog or website at any time. Cindery 02:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
You seem to have missed the part above where I said EL was just changed back--the guideline now accurately reflects policy. Per RS and V, there are exceptions whereby YT can be used as source. Perhaps you should go to RS and V to argue that they should be changed--falsely stating on OR that YT is not to be used to support any claims in articles on NOR discussion page won't change V or RS. Cindery 03:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
What you seem not to get is that the possibilty that the use of a source is unreliable doesn't make the source unreliable. A YouTube video used as photographs are can be a legitimate and extremely useful use of a source. A specific complaint about a specific video or photo would be necessary to argue that the photo or video was unreliable; that photography and film are user-manipulable sources is not a sufficient generality to exclude all uses of film and photography on principle. Cindery 03:39, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
For video evidence that something happened or used to exist, I could post a digitized YouTube link of a film and you would have to argue on talkpage of article, provide evidence, and gain consensus that it was unreliable (on some other basis than because it was self-published, as most Wikipedia photographs are. Depending on who I am, I could be an extremely reliable or unreliable source--think back on the acclaimed poet videotaping the other acclaimed poet). If I re-published a public domain Krazy Kat cartoon I videotaped off my laptop from the Library of Congress site in a more easily accessible YouTube link, I could cite it as a footnote in a sentence making a descriptive claim about the specific cartoon. If you wanted to object, again, you would have to discuss on talkpage and gain consensus; provide evidence/make argument that the YT link was unreliable. Cindery 04:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Re Crum75, Yes, it's reliable until proven unreliable, because we assume good faith that editors are adding information to improve the encyclopedia. If there is some problem with any addition, other editors revert edits and explain why. In a talkpage discussion regarding a YT link used as a source, if the link was a good source, you would lose if your argument was "even if it is a good source, it should be excluded because it is YT." Source reliability isn't established by policy or guideline--it's established through the editorial process, which relies upon policies and guidelines.
RE Jossi, I realize that you would like to denigrate my understanding of policy rather than admit that the EL guideline was changed two weeks ago --without adequate discussion or consensus-- to contradict policy, but it's too transparent to take seriously. I did notice that you immediately ran over to EL to try to reinsert a prohibition on YT, though! :-) Cindery 06:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
As you are aware, I have brought it up at EL. You've reverted changes by Barberio and Wjohnson which deleted YouTube, and are now up to 2RR--without bringing it up on talkpage yourself. Is there some reason you are reverting the other editors without discussion? Cindery 16:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I have a question regarding a possible conflict between WP:NOR and WP:copyvio (and I apologize if this question has been raised and answered before - it's not in the current NOR article or talk page, from what I can see). If one is creating an article about a novel, such as my recent The Antipope article, how is it possible to insert a synopsis of the novel that is neither OR (if one writes it oneself), or copyvio (if taken from a "reputable" source)? Would this case be an exception to the NOR policy? Thanks in advance. Carre 20:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I am not sure where else to post this. I am wondering if some people can give me their opinion as to whether I have crossed the line into original research on a page I recently made. The material in question is not currently showing on Saipan Sucks but can be seen at http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Saipan_Sucks&diff=90000413&oldid=90000009 Thanks! C.m.jones 22:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Since I have not gotten any comments I am requesting here again. Please help.
Is this OR:
At the webpage http://www.saipansucks.com/about.htm the author's name does not appear. The page is written anonymously.
But not really. Because with the same page opened in your browser, go to View > Page Source (in Mozilla) or View > Source (in IE).
On line 39 of the html source code you see the name William Betz as author.
Can I cite the html source and have that not be OR?
Also, if one does a whois with the domain saipansucks.com, the name William Betz is shown as the Administrative Contact.
Can I cite that and have that not be OR?
In both cases one must take an ACTION. And no published source mentions that by these actions one can find the page's author. I in a sense "created" the way, did the research for this.
Can I cite the whois lookup and have that not be OR?
C.m.jones 22:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi.
I've noticed these:
For the first, one can include multiple points of view even if one is not verifiable, so this ( WP:NOR) to me sounds more like an issue of verifiability and not neutrality unless we are saying that if it's unpublished it could therefore be simply a personal opinion. Saying it "promotes the inclusion of multiple points of view" doesn't seem to make much sense, rather it might be better to say "promotes the inclusion of only verifiable, attributable points of view" or something along these lines as it doesn't just promote the addition of any ol' POVs.
For the second, this sounds more like Notability, as in order to "belong" in Wikipedia all that is needed, really, according to WP:V is publication in citable, and ideally, reliable sources, and "original research" as defined in this very policy page ( WP:NOR) means "unpublished material", not how many people hold the viewpoint. Then again, I could be wrong... 70.101.147.74 03:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Part of the project page used to say that a journalist could be a secondary source. For the purposes of wikipedia, no person can be a source, whatsoever. A person is not verifiable, only their work is. So a person is not a source. The interview, the article, the book, is a source, but a person is never a source. I cannot imagine the horror of citation to "Mr John Brown at Rutgers" and then editors having to call him up to interview him to verify the article. That would be an absolute nightmare, not to mention eminently impossible to achieve. I strongly hope that others agree with my position, that only works are sources. Wjhonson 07:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
As some of you may know, I've been creating a series of articles about the local administrative units of Ethiopia (they are called Regions, Zones & woredas or districts). Until yesterday, I've been having a fair amount of luck sticking to my plan of simply providing the data from reliable sources (the Ethiopian Central Statistical Agency for the 2005 population numbers, maps from UN-OCHA for geographical details) with the minimum amount of interpretation needed. (Let's not debate whether my work is in part or whole OR; if it is, then so is every contribution Rambot has made.) There's been a few places where my sources have contradicted each other, but I've been able to avoid the thicket of OR up until now.
Yesterday, I was exploring a new source -- the Disaster Prevention & Preparedness Agency of Ethiopia's website -- & discovered that it had a number maps that I could make good use of. However, many of these maps introduce a number of important complications into my work: not only do these maps document new subnational administrative units (the existence of some I suspected from other sources), but different boundaries for many of these units. From everything I can tell, this source is of equal reliability as the others (it's part of the Ethiopian government, just like the CSA, & the other materials are produced by the UN). In other words, I have a problem that needs some kind of explanation.
The best solution -- find a source that explains these discrepencies -- is not an option. I've done a few Google searches, & I failed to find any explanations: that one source was using incorrect information, or perhaps these were routine administrative reorganizations. (I'm not surprised: with the possible exception of the military, the Ethiopian government is understaffed & providing English translations of administrative changes is not that high on their lists.) I've done enough local library searches for information on Ethiopia to know that I don't have printed sources close to hand. (I might in maybe in 9 or 12 months, with help from a dedicated reference librarian -- books on the recent Ethiopian are uncommon.)
If this wasn't being created for Wikipedia, I'd provide the most reasonable explanation -- that the differences are most likely due to the expected administrative reorganizations reported at different times -- & leave it at that. On the other hand, if I were following the steps I described in Wikipedia: These are not Original Research (& I'll confess, I was the one who started that essay) of simply providing the information & leave this for the reader to sort out, I believe this would abandon the reader at the moment they need some kind of guidance -- even if it is bad advice.
Some might say this is a good case where I should ignore all of the rules, & just provide my reasonable explanation. However, in the last few months the "Ignore All Rules clause" has been abused (or alleged to have been abused) so often that I'm not sure that I could effectively invoke it here. While I'm following the spirit of "no original research" here (& I doubt anyone will argue that administrative reorganizations never happen), I am concerned that some enthusiastic Wikipedian will declare that I am violating the letter & engage in a protracted & disruptive edit war to remove all of my work. I'd rather work towards a solution first. -- llywrch 19:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I have chosen to use the time-honoured device of improving Wikipedia to make my point about these two sentences:
My point is that it is silly to have a requirement that primary sources have to be intelligible to someone who knows nothing about the subject. And also it is silly to try to prohibit interpreation of primary source material where there is no originality in that interpretation - ie an interpretation that no-one who understands the subject would genuinely disagree with.
I have therefore created the article English women's cricket team in Australia and New Zealand in 1934-35.
Apart from bit about the quatrain in the lead, everything else in the article has been derived from primary sources - either scorecards of cricket matches, or from photographs. And I have readily interpreted those primary sources. Every cricket fan (specialist), if they were so motivated, would be able to agree that what I have written follows immediately from the primary sources I have cited. Someone who knows nothing of the sport (non-specialist), will not.
My question is therefore: is it reasonable for this new article, English women's cricket team in Australia and New Zealand in 1934-35, to exist? jguk 17:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Robert, thank you for your comments. I think they help illustrate what I am saying.
Any cricket fan looking through the article or the scorecards would conclude that Myrtle Maclagan was the star player - her wickets need to be considered as well as her runs. It is something any specialist (here, cricket fan) would agree on, but that a non-specialist (ie non-cricket fan) cannot immediately see. (In fact the Morning Post quatrain, which is from a secondary source, further supports the conclusion.) By making that conclusion, I have added to the article, and hopefully made it more interesting to the reader, who may then be tempted to learn more about Myrtle Maclagan (and probably Betty Snowball too). It is a worthwhile thing to add. Given that it is an interpretation easily checked by the reader (and remember that cricket fans are the target audience), I think I should be able to add that interpretation to the article.
Yes, I am dealing with something on which relatively little has been written - unlike your baseball example, which I agreee appears to be comparable in every other respect. This makes what I write in WP more important (if you want to learn about the English women's cricket tour of 1934-35 where else can you go, whereas if you want to know more about third basemen, I guess you have hundreds of options other than WP open to you). It also means that it is reasonable for the article's author to draw out on WP as much information that is available to the author. Not so as to give voice to his own theories - I agree that that is against this policy - but so as to place the subject in proper context.
The wording of the policy makes it clear that I can interpret a reliable secondary source in an unoriginal way even if that secondary source cannot be understood by a non-specialist. It seems odd that I can't do the same with a reliable primary source. jguk 18:47, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
All articles are interpretations of source information. That's what putting together an article that is not plagiarised involves: interpreting your sources and putting together a text that conveys information already in those sources in a way that will get your point across and interest the reader. When I refer to interpreting sources in an unoriginal way, that is the process I am referring to.
The wording of WP:NOR certainly does make a distinction between primary and secondary sources in this respect. It says:
For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source.
This requirement is not reproduced for secondary sources. So it follows that we are allowed interpretations of secondary sources provided those interpretations are unoriginal - ie they do not introduce new ideas or concepts.
If, however, you mean that we should not make original interpretations full stop, but we can reproduce original interpretations of others (ie by reference to a secondary source that makes original interpretations of a primary source), then we really need WP:NOR to say that. jguk 19:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there a consensus as to whether or not original research can be removed at any time? Taxico 08:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Please see discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#The_first_sentence - it effects the first sentence of this page too. -- Tango 00:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Is an audio recording, such as a song, considered a primary source? Can it be used for information, or is that original research? A small discussion (and many different reverts) has been going on at Love (The Beatles album) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Talk:Love (The Beatles album) ( | article | history | links | watch | logs). — Gordon P. Hemsley→ ✉ 01:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | ← | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | Archive 16 | Archive 17 | → | Archive 20 |
That's how it looks to me, and very ugly. But is it only me? Does it look OK to everyone else? Or has my machine dropped acid? qp10qp 03:43, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
Is making a purely mathematical calculation to yield a result original research?
If a verifiable source, say a census bureau gives the population of a geographic entity, and also gives its area, is the mere quotient of the two (yielding the population density) original research if the census bureau does not explicitly provide that number? What can be done consistent with no original research: (a) forgo the information even in our info boxes; (b) search for some other reliable source which has decided to do the math for us (which may not be available, especially as the census bureau tends to be more "up to date" than most other secondary sources, so the calculations from reliable sources may not be made using the same numbers); (c) do the math ourselves <sarcasm>and cite the maker of our calculator the reliable source</sarcasm>. Carlossuarez46 17:48, 6 October 2006 (UTC)
A proposal that WP:NOR and WP:V be combined, and WP:RS ditched. All views welcome. SlimVirgin (talk) 05:19, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Per the dispute resolution page, I would like some people with a long standing knowledge of this policy to come and post a couple of comments on the RFC discussion at Talk:Make Love, Not Warcraft#RFC. An example of the content which is under discussion is this version of the page [1] which editors are claiming is acceptable. Thanks, Localzuk (talk) 20:15, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
Hi, this is an attribution question that seems to apply to a combination of WP:V, WP:NOR and WP:RS, but since WP:NOR appears to be the most relevant, it may make sense to post it here. Here is the scenario: assume we have an editor with access to copies of affidavits from an official government agency (in this case, the Patent Office). Assume that we want to rely on these letters as a reference in an article to show that the witness in that affidavit made certain claims (which he affirms in the affidavit). We aren't sure, however, how to verify these documents or obtain them, presumably from the government directly. The editor with access to the original letters uploaded the scanned letters into WP as a PDF file of scanned images. The letters seem like affidavits; they have government seals and signatures and appear authentic. The question is: can the article (which includes some controversial claims) make reference to these letters and point to the Wikicommons scanned image as source? Would doing so violate any existing WP sourcing/attribution policy or guideline? How, if at all, might one go about verifying this document, and does this verification method reasonably fulfill Wikipedia requirements? Thank - Che Nuevara 23:24, 11 October 2006 (UTC)
(unindent) I would say Crum375's approach would not be satisfactory, because that Wikipedian is trying to be a publisher, but (as far as I know) does not have a reputation as a reliable publisher. -- Gerry Ashton 03:33, 12 October 2006 (UTC)
I came here looking for an answer to my question on this. ([semi-]Long version: I requested a record from the Wisconsin Department of Military Affairs in re the Wisconsin State Defense Force. They sent me a letter back saying that the record does exist [that they do not currently have a plan to organise it]. I think that that information would be `useful' to have in the article) Short version: I sent a letter to the government. They sent me a letter back. Anyone can get what they sent back by simply asking them. Can I use this in Wikipedia as a source? (Which from the dicusion, I would say probably) How would I cite it? Benn Newman 01:16, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
I should like a view on this. Nowadays, chess engines are routinely used to analyse games. If an editor adds chess engine analysis to an article I would argue that it is not OR because it is verifiable by another person who can simply run the same program. I should welcome views, please. BlueValour 15:50, 15 October 2006 (UTC)
To avoid OR does not require the source to be cheap or free, it means to have verification. Say a fractal image, the exact same source file can be used to produce the same image. Ease of confirmation does not seem to the be an issue, foriegn language sources are allowed. The only concern is if in fact this game engine can give the same results when ran by other people in a deterministic fashion. HighInBC 03:22, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Hmmm, many lab experiments could be duplicated if documented properly. That hardly means that scientists should skip scholarly journals and just add their findings to Wikipedia articles. I'm not seeing why Wikipedia should be a dumping ground for stuff no one else is interested in publishing. Wikipedia is not a blog. -- W.marsh 04:13, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
I think this is easier to understand if we simply think of a computer's opinion as functionally the same as that as any extremely strong chessplayer. For example, if I ask Garry Kasparov what his opinion on a position is, and then report on that, am I doing original research because Garry Kasparov is hard to get access to and so it would be hard to find him and ask him the same question again and again? In fact, it's even less reliable and less verifiable to ask Kasparov, since he might give a different opinion on a different day, and he's extremely difficult to get access to. However, where there is only one Kasparov, anyone can have his own Rybka. I might have made up everything Kasparov said, but if I make up what Rybka says, anyone can run it for himself to expose my fraud.
Really, I think that what I am doing here is interviewing an extremely strong chessplayer and then reporting on what he said. This is not original research any more than that would be. ⟳ausa کui × 15:20, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
These are all valid points, and I agree with you in general, but what I'm trying to present here is an explanation for my belief that this generalization does not apply to this specific case. The original research policy is intended to stop people from inserting their own ideas and their own work into Wikipedia for the purpose of popularizing them, and that's good. But this is not such a case; I am not putting my own work or my own ideas into Wikipedia. I am using chess engines to supply commentary, which may be illuminating to readers who are not chess professionals into the extremely dense and complicated positions of world-championship level chess. This makes the articles better. In fact, chess engines are more reliable, verifiable, and accessible than the opinions of strong humans. ⟳ausa کui × 18:07, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia:No_original_research#Reputable_publications seems to go back to the top of the page. -- Espoo 10:26, 16 October 2006 (UTC)
Can someone take a look at ghost ramp? Does this violate NOR (or another policy)? -- NE2 00:49, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
(outdent) This article is essentially a list, and a part of the inclusion criteria (which I quoted previously) is: "The term does not refer to inactive or partially-built ramps which are intended to connect to a roadway which is actively planned or under construction; it only refers to ramps which have been abandoned for some reason." The critical words for me are "actively planned": if there are no plans being made to extend/complete the stub, it would be considered 'ghost' and hence includable. In the single Houston example I checked, it specifically said there are plans being studied for extension/completion, hence I don't see it as eligible, i.e. it is not 'abandoned' by the definition in the intro. What am I missing? Crum375 01:27, 19 October 2006 (UTC)
I'm also curious about the use of the term "ghost ramp". As far as I know, this term is only used by roadgeeks. -- NE2 21:04, 18 October 2006 (UTC)
Is the result of a vote allowed to override this policy? -- NE2 22:18, 21 October 2006 (UTC)
Wikipedia contains many "lists of", some trivial, and some more serious. Consider for example List of polydactyl people and List of countries. I am wondering whether most of the lists on Wikipedia constitute original research to some degree, and whether that original research isn't so inextricably linked to some of these lists that they don’t even belong on Wikipedia.
Most lists contain a set of members, and the presence of the member on the list is supposed to attest that the member does indeed have whatever property that list is supposed to identify. In forming lists this way, I see two ways that original research can slip in.
First, determining whether a member does or does not have the necessary property can be difficult. Should a member be on a list if reliable sources contradict each other as to whether they have the property? What is the citation standard for deciding that a member has a property?
Second, the very act of assembling such a list strikes me as consisting of original research, given that the editor(s) are making conscious decision which members should or shouldn’t be on the list.
Consider List of countries – on first glance it seems this should be an easy list to compile. But instead, the article contains a lengthy subsection explaining what criteria were used for putting members on the list. In effect, original research to create a Wikipedia-specific definition of “Country”. Someone, by listing Pridnestrovie for example, has done original research to decide that Wikipedia can recognize this entity as a country.
I suspect, if NOR is truly to be respected, the only “Lists of” that Wikipedia should contain are those where the list is compiled and maintained by a reliable source outside of Wikipedia, and we merely reproduce that list.
This comes to mind in light of the above discussion of “ghost ramp”. Although that article doesn’t explicitly call itself a “list of”, it is in effect one, and that seems to be where the NOR issue arises. - O^O
SlimVirgin ( talk · contribs) has been making major changes to this policy without prior discussion here. Take a look at these extensive diffs since October 16th. SlimVirgin had zero edits to the talk page during that period, but made approximately 24 changes to the policy itself.
These changes need to be carefully examined by others. -- John Nagle 07:27, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I wish to invite discussion on the following point. The Wikipedia Original Research Policy states in part: "A and B, therefore C" is acceptable only if a reliable source has published this argument in relation to the topic of the article."
I have recently become involved in a discussion on the Stephen Barrett Talk Page [ [4]] where I have been accused of doing Original Research. I have attempted to state two juxtaposed facts A and B, but have not stated a conclusion. The ABC version of the policy as presently stated is enforceable. A policy which said that editors could not state two juxtaposed facts A and B because readers would draw a conclusion from them would not me enforceable, since readers will inevitably draw conclusions from juxtaposed facts. Here are some examples:
When we read an encyclopaedia article about Hitler we inevitably think: "Hitler must have been mad" yet I shouldn't think the word "mad" is used to describe him in an encyclopaedia article.
To take another example. There exist charlatans who claim to have supernatural powers which they know they do not posseess. Nobody will state in his Wikipedia contribution outright: "Mr X is a liar and a charlatan." But the longer these people go through their careers the more facts accumulate about them. So anyone who reads a Wikipedia article about someone like this will read a collection of facts from which readers will almost inevitably infer that the subject is a charlatan.
So, should the OR policy only ban explicit inference as I say ? Or are we going to get into grey areas and matters of nice judgement decided on a case by case basis ? Robert2957 08:11, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
No, I wouldn't wish to arrange passages to lead people to conclusions. I have not admitted this. What I am trying to argue is that an editor should not be accused of OR if he merely states two juxtaposed facts from which readers happen to make an inference, or if he juxtaposes a fact of his own with another editor's fact. Close consideration of my example about charlatans should make this clear. Any sourced and verified fact should be acceptable. Conclusions for which no authority is quoted, of course, should not be allowed. The ABC rule is OK. An AB version is not. Robert2957 20:17, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
With all respect I am here raising an issue of very high generality which is completely independent of any one controversy about any one website. I am saying that an NOR policy of the ABC type is justiciable, and an NOR policy of the AB type isn't. This question not only can, but should, be pursued independently of any particular discussion. I don't want to bring a particular argument about a particular example into this. If I did so any number of other particular OR discussions could be brought into this discussion and those particular discussions should take place on their respective talk pages.
Robert2957 21:20, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
To answer Robert's question to me, if an editor justaposes a and b and readers draw conclusion c, then the article is presenting original research even if the editor who made the juxtaposition did not have this intention. If the editor did not have the intention, surely s/he would have no objection to the edit (juxtapostion) being changed so as not to violate the policy. This as abstract as I can get. Slrubenstein | Talk 08:47, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Precisely what I am trying to do is to establish and ABC rather than an AB version on the NOR policy as the official policy of Wikipedia. Any previous controversy I may have been involved in is irrelevant to the discussion I am trying to initiate here. I do not think that Wikipedia is the place to "get certain facts" mentioned.I understand the purpose of Wikipedia. Robert2957 10:33, 26 October 2006 (UTC)
Jesup, the singular is correct here. "... or any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published arguments, ideas, data, or theories that serves to advance a position."
To use serve is equivalent to saying: "Any man or woman who arrive on time get the job." SlimVirgin (talk) 17:06, 25 October 2006 (UTC)
I have reason to believe that this policy needs some review to discss the incorporation of factual original research. An editor recently put a tag on a very small article I began to write stating that it needed a complete rerwite because it didn't state sources etc. and it looked like original research, which it was. I have no problem with people questioning, and have no problem with knowing when I'm wrong, when somthing needs to be changed or when something needs to be done differently. I do, however, have a problem with this policy for a few reasons:
I apologise for my inability to spell and write with correct grammar to a highly educated level, if my parents had the money perhaps that would be different. And I apologise for not making clearer sense and organising my opinion so it is easier to read, but I figure, if you have taken the time to read this then perhaps you might understand what I'm saying, if you didn't read it then your attention span is too short to be discussing wikipedia policy.
Thankyou for your time. Nick carson 06:05, 29 October 2006 (UTC)
Cross posted to WP:RS, WP:OR and Wikipedia:WikiProject Medicine. There is a dispute going on at Talk:Depo Provera#Disadvantages and side effects WP:NOR violations. One user found primary sources, reliable journal articles, that said depo provera may do certain negative things. Another user is disputing this, citing original research. The argument, I guess, is that the 1st user is interpreting the source, and drawing conclusions not published anywhere else. The studies only dealt with rats (not humans), and there is nothing in the patient drug information (or any other way to verify the claims outside of the studies in question). The logic goes that making a connection that a study dealing with rats may effect the use of this drug in humans as a contraception is original research. Furthermore, it may be pushing a POV that this drug is unsafe by mentioning these studies (that are not verified outside of the individual study, and not mentioned in patient drug information). I feel like I am repeating myself, sorry. The counter argument is that a) citing primary sources is a good thing b) the claims are cited and verifiable and reliable, fulfilling almost every wikipedia criteria for inclusion. So I guess there are two issues. Is using the information in this manner original research? And is it giving undue weight to a minority view by citing obscure studies like this? Sorry if I am missing anything or misrepresenting a side. Please direct comments to Talk:Depo Provera#Disadvantages and side effects WP:NOR violations. Thanks!-- Andrew c 03:32, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Thanks for the imput. When writing up my summary request for comment, I was thinking that would be a good solution. Don't drawn new conclusions from the study, or make it seem as if the results fit under a category they don't, but instead relay them in a manner that is representative of the study in question (this fixes the OR and RS concerns, but still, there are questions about notability and NPOV). --Andrew c 15:24, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Um, SlimVirgin hasn't said that the one sentence study summaries in "Disadvantages" exist a category in which they shouldn't.
Also, please see your own comments regarding the herpes rat study, the "long quote" dispute in which the anon previously contested the inclusion of the herpes rat study (only in hostile edit summaries, not on talkpage) on the grounds that the source was "in the opinion of a native american women's health care activist," and would not stop making what could be considered possibly racist and sexist ad hominem attacks against the source until it was pointed out firmly to him that the source cited more than one pubmed ref/study in her biblio--i.e., the very herpes rat study citation being contested now as "OR" you agreed was appropriate in both category and one-sentence summary, and is being brought up again now...
What SV does do, I think, is make the excellent point that an article doesn't have to be a rehash/mirror of a drug product insert or a textbook, nor should it be...?
As far as "notability" goes--this hasn't been brought up before. What are you referring to? (And, as far as I know, "notability" is a concept which refers to BLP.?)
No NPOV argument has been made either--merely an ad hominem attack against me which violates WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA by the anon who uses the string of IPs (the same one who previously made the "native american women's health care activist" ad hominem attack against the source in the herpes rat study citation...)
I think it might be really helpful, Andrew, for you to read all the studies re Depo and STDS, to help elevate discussion/move it back to sources and facts at Depo talkpage--the first cite in disadvantages re Depo/STDs was not added by me, but linked to the others (Depo appears to suppress immunity in general, making users more susceptible to pretty much all of them...) Cindery 19:08, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
Take any recent (or not-so-recent) computer game or Japanese comic-book character. Or a pop song. Look them up in Wikipedia. Original research, almost all of them, with one fan adding a fact or asserted fact and the next fan adding to that one. Leave aside all this tallk about "published, refereed research." You will find it lacking in many if not most WP articles. I don't want to be flip, but Get Real. Actually LOOK at any one of the Random Articles in the column at the left; go ahead — choose one. Chances are it will be almost totally based on Uncited Sources. If you find one that's NOT, list it here. Sincerely, and with great good will, GeorgeLouis 06:03, 3 November 2006 (UTC)
I don't think that people should not be allowed to put in original research. I WAS planning to ask Jason Lewis about his potential role when I see him again, but now I suppose it is useless. (I met him at Allen Savage's). Just because information isn't published doesn't mean it shouldn't be in the article. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Superstormfanatic ( talk • contribs) 01:56, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
Do census data and official crime stats constitute primary sources? Is it OK to say 'X is the 3rd largest city in country Y, according to the latest census results'. Or is it OK to say that 'city Y has the third highest crime rate according to national crime statistics.' Curtains99 09:11, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
I am intending to translate this page into Urdu for Wikipedia Urdu. In this regard I have one question.
Does this policy cover those situations where a new translation is created for foreign words/terminologies for which the language doesn't already have any words?
There are hundreds of scientific words and terminologies in English for which there are absolutely no replacements/translations in Urdu. I have noticed some users at Wikipedia Urdu are creating/inventing translations for such words and terminologies. These translations have never been published before anywhere else. I think it is a serious situation should be addressed at the highest possible level of Wikipedia administration as, in my opinion, it is an open violation of No original research policy.
Szhaider 23:52, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I've just edited the policy to include info on translations of outside text and using translations by Wikipedians of outside text as sources. Specifically, I've said it's out-of-bounds. Edit is here. It's new, but I'm trying to be bold and I think it's a good idea. Even if this is eventually beaten down, there should be a section saying it's ok. This came up over a minor content dispute I'm in about adding an original translation to an article, and to my surprise, I was informed that it's not covered one way or another by this policy.
I really think it should be forboden, as it's no more verifiable than an original scientific experiment is. After all, when you analyze (even without performing) an experiment on your own, you're "translating" the data into a readable conclusion. So why should an editor be able to translate something on his/her own and include it as verifiable fact?
No translation of significant size is going to be identical, similar to how no opinion on global warming statistics, symbolic effect in The Scarlet Letter, or the signifance on the recent swing in power in the U.S. Congress will be identical. Therefore, Wikipedia should rely on verifiable, outside translations only. 66.231.130.70 01:25, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Link to section is here. Also please don't blindly revert me if you disagree, I've edited a sentence elsewhere that is a useful clearing of of ambiguity. 66.231.130.70 01:28, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
I am trying to begin the painful work of working through the backlog of pages tagged as OR. Most of them seem either incorrectly tagged or tagged without any further comments on the talk page. If anyone would like to help out it would be great because I really do feelthat the OR tag should be temporary and not something just slapped on the article because someone disagreed with it or didn't know how to tag it correctly. For example, a lot of pages are tagged as OR when the correct more indicative tag would be to tag it as unreferenced or containing weasel words. The OR tag is a pretty serious one and should be used with caution and an explanation why it was used. MartinDK 15:02, 10 November 2006 (UTC)
Could someone please define this for me? Is this material someone submitted for publication themself, or a company publishing something themself, etc? Thanks! Q Jenkins 15:57, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
Ok, so that excludes company self published material, like, an instruction manual or a FAQ? Also, I know this probably isn't the place, but how do you do the indent? Q Jenkins 16:03, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
I am trying to translate this policy page in to Urdu for Urdu WP so that I, as an admin there, can begin to force it specially on those who are using WP for publishing their own theories and agendas. However, everyday when I begin to trnaslate a new paragarph I notice that previous translation is out-of-date because some one has already changed the policy page. Can an admin point me to the final and finest form of this page. As it is an official policy, every word should be carefully translated which is becoming hard with daily changes in the project page. Szhaider 05:07, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
The NOR rule has been invoked to try to disallow inserting comments which are direct quotes from reliable sources. There is a big difference between advancing an argument about the Chicago Manual of Style and noting that "the Chicago Manual of Style defines plagarism "using a source's information, ideas, words, or structure without citing them"" NBeale 10:41, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Specifically, it has been suggested that if fact A is in an article and fact B is added then this "serves to advance the argument (cleverly left implicit)" However this would be an argument against inserting any facts into an article since adding any fact can be seen as advancing an implicit argument. So with some trepidation I've tried to make this clear in the article. What do people think? NBeale 17:27, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey everyone.
Just wanted people's opinion on an issue about WP's OR policy. I am currently preparing an article on Erdheim-Chester disease. Unfortunatly, due to the rareness of ECD, there is no widely accepted treatment. I have presented the treatments that have been tried, with varrying levels of success. There is also some case studies available that discribe various treatments and their levels of success for a particular individual. This could be considered OR, however, I feel that it would be useful to the reader to add, for example: "Two patients were reported to respond to prolonged therapy with vinblastine and mycophenolate mofetil (Jendro et al., 2004)." Is there a way to disclaim that treatements for ECD are still under research and there is no consensus amongst physicians? I'd prefer to add the information and disclaim it, than simply leave it out. Let me know. All the best! --JE.at.UWO U| T 17:04, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Newspaper accounts are primary sources. An analysis of an event, on the other hand, is a a secondary source. From secondary sources (my highlight):
An example of a secondary source would be the biographyof a historical figure which constructed a coherent narrative out of avariety of primary source documents, such as letters, diaries,newspaper accounts, and official records. It would also likely utilizeadditional secondary sources (such as previously-written biographies)as well. Most, but not all, secondary sources utilize extensive citation.
I corrected acordingly ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
An example:
A 1941 newspaper account of the Perl Harbor attack is a primary source. An comparison of the attack on Perl Harbor with the 9/11 attacks, published in a newspaper or magazine are a secondary sources. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 00:12, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The fact that we must paste from other websites makes Wikipedia look like a giant plagiarizing bulletin board rather then a Encyclopedia. The fact that some 12 year old who posts from an article based off some news blog is considered more reliable then a college professor is an insult to all definitions of knowledge.
There are plenty of well educated people making great contributions that get reverted simply because they are not plagiarized. Also, it seems as if there is a secret rule stating that any fact not found on Google must be a lie. Not to mention the sheer amount of information that is not on the web; but in Books, Labs, and in real life. This rule is entirely biased.
—The preceding unsigned comment was added by Roxanne Edits ( talk • contribs) 00:46, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Are my statements at User talk:Route 82#Re: New Jersey Route 60 correct - that a detailed map of a route that was only proposed in general terms is just as bad as a detailed description? -- NE2 00:56, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Jossi, a newspaper story is a secondary source, unless it's an old one, in which case it acts as a primary source about the period. Regarding recent stories, an eyewitness's statement about a traffic accident is a primary source. A newspaper's report about that eyewitness's statement, and about the accident in general, is a secondary one. SlimVirgin (talk) 01:51, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The policy provides (apparently as guidance rather than a hard and fast rule) that "edits that rely on primary sources should only make descriptive claims that can be checked by anyone without specialist knowledge". This guidance is regularly, and quite correctly not adhered to. For example, a firsthand report of a sports match published in a newspaper is regularly used to evidence the score and what happened in the game, even though those without the specialist knowledge of that sport would not understand it. From a primary source saying that the result of a Gaelic football match was Team A 2-13, Team B 1-17, it is perfectly reasonable for those writing on Gaelic football to conclude Team B won - yet that's not clear at all if you know nothing about Gaelic football. From this scorecard it is reasonable for someone who knows about cricket to conclude that Jim Laker had an absolutely amazing match. But someone unfamiliar with the game may question why that is so if he only scored 3!
I suggest changing the text so that it better reflects actual (quite reasonable) practice. Maybe "edits that rely on primary sources should only make claims that can readily be deduced by anyone with specialist knowledge in the field"? jguk 17:43, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Splitting hairs here? I do not think that anyone will dispute the score of a football match as reported by a newspaper on any grounds of NOR... ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 18:04, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
Someone made a trailer--an original work of art--for a film about a guy named Brent Corrgian. A guy who appointed himself the YouTube police tagged if for copyright verification. When the author verfied authorship/licensing, the YouTube police guy said then it's OR and still can't be used. I say it's a primary source and fine as an external link; original art in which the subject of the article appears advances no position and is in no way OR. (YouTube-police-guy might have had a vanity argument, except that the link has now been posted by someone else--me--and I don't know the author. Or a commercial argument--except that the film isn't finished and has no studio distributor, ad budget, marketing plan or source of revenue--the trailer at this point is just a stand-alone original work of art on the indie-film level, which enhances the quality of the article as a relevant, valuable, interesting external link.) Please see: [8] Opinions? Cindery 21:35, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
According to the view-meter, it's been viewed more than 10,000x. That's 10,000 vs. one--I'd say you're outvoted by a rather large consensus about whether it has any value. But, this is the NOR board. You autocratically informed the author of the link that it was orginal research--after telling him or her that if they objected to your deletion of YouTube links, that they should post on your project talkpage so "experts" could review their objections. I think the NOR talkpage is a better place to review OR accusations. Fellow editors can discuss, weigh-in; not a single self-appointed "expert" who refused to even discuss the matter with the author. Cindery 03:01, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
If it is a primary source or not, is irrelevant. YouTube videos are not reliable sources for anything.
≈ jossi ≈
t •
@ 18:03, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
The Brent Corrigan video was uploaded by the original author, and he or she vouched that every element of it is his or her original work--hence the OR accusation. (As for YouTube in general as a reliable source, there is the issue of substantiality. For example, ripping a YouTube clip of 2 minutes of a 70 minute documentary is very arguably fair use. There are several legal elements to a copyright vio case. It is highly likely that in if a tiny segment of an oscure political documentary--or an old commerical--is ripped into a YouTube clip, that the copyright holder would be happy for the exposure, and hence deleting-on-source-bias would serve no one. In additon, "fair use" and sampling are very big issues right now in alternative media. "The elements can be manipulated by anyone" is a disturbingly oversimplified argument--there's nothing inherently wrong with the fact that the medium is manipulable by the masses, and Wikipedia would lose a lot of valuable links/enriching sources if a source bias persists. Rather than a blanket bias against YouTube as a medium, the links, when contested, should--like blogs and personal websites--be decided on their individual merits. If, for example, somone taped all the old Max Fleischer cartoons off of tv--that would be great. They aren't under copyright. If someone ripped 10 minutes of Alexander Nevsky and subbed in their own original kazoo composition as audio, that would be great--Nevsky isn't under copyright either: "Ten minute clip of Alexander Nevsky, with original music by <blank>," etc. For anyone who knows anything about film, YouTube is an amazing delivery medium--all kinds of old 8mm and 16mm film people have personally shot can be digitized and YouTubed merely for accessibility--like photos taken by Wikipedians, these are invaluable visual resources, which editors have to offer under GFDL.) But, to bring it back to OR-- I see a problem with insisting that the author vouch that it is not a copyright, and then when he or she does, accusing them of OR--so, if someone else posts the link, it's a potential copyvio because YouTube is the source, and if the original author posts it, it's OR--that's a catch-22, not a means to verify the reliability of a source... Cindery 22:14, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
"Fair use has its problems" is better phrased/understood as "fair use has its complexities"--which is an argument in favor of caution and discussion, as opposed to deletion-on-source-bias (deleting because the source is YouTube). "Spoofing or tampering with video content" could also be better phrased. Altering content, such as ripping a clip, making a collage, or subbing audio, is not at all necessarily bad. "External links" is primarily what we've been discussing, but video can be a great cited source, especially for places and people that no longer exist. See: Barrington Hall--three floors of murals were wiped out/painted over in 1989. Only one 8mm film exists of the murals. As visual documentation that something existed, the film isn't just a good source, it's the only source--no photos capture the building in long takes, showing that it was a building, that one mural bled into another for a city-block. In the current ongoing purge of YouTube links, no one seems aware or has even mentioned that video can exist as photographs do--totally noncontroversial excellent sources. Original photographs are just as manipulable by authors as video--I can photoshop in whatever I want, etc., and yet we appreciate these photos, and are not purging them en masse because they are original works which could have been manipulated without establishing that they were manipulated in some way which undercuts their validity as sources. Cindery 23:47, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
No, I think you're just making an erroneous conflation, based on assumptions, that the lack of control over the YouTube= "most cases will be violations." A lot of them could be, but the source itself does not equal violations, and a source bias is harmful because it implies to editors that the problem is the source, not the potential V/NOR/C policy issues. People shouldn't be discouraged from using such an incredibly useful medium; they should be encouraged to evaluate the use of YouTube as link or source based on policy. Mass deletions of YouTube links don't do much to raise awareness about policy and how to make sure useful links can meet policy, they just imply that there's something inherently wrong with YouTube, and there's not. Any copyright holder with an objection to use of any image used on YouTube has clear redress to both YouTube and Wiki--aggressive before-the-fact purging isn't necessary--the purge should be less aggressive/is erring to far on the deletionist side, and is giving people the impression that YouTube can't be used, not that YouTube should be used judiciously. In the Corrigan case, I see no OR issue--what I see is source bias. Cindery 01:15, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
That's funny--my feeling is genuinely the opposite; that you are not addressing concerns raised. Perhaps it clarifies matters to state that a template in is in wide circulation stating that "99% of YouTube links" should not be used (and the most conservative--and biased/unscientific-- estimate of the person who is conducting the purge is 90%...) "Editors" are not erring on the side of deletion--a small handful of people are deleting all the YouTube links without careful evaluation or discussion on talkpages of articles in --they have stopped even posting a warning template (with an exaggerated biased number of 99%).
I think I have made it clear that my position on YouTube links as sources is that they can be invaluable as visual documentation, as photos are. (But I see YouTube overall as potentially useful external links, as blogs and websites can be.)
YouTube videos should never be used as a source to support a claim in an article, unless it is absoluelty certain that there are no copyvio issues and the material is highly relevant and not available from another, more reliable source--there is no disagreement here (except with "more reliable source")--the disagreement pertains to how this is being established. Talkpages of articles are appropriate; mass deletions by people who do not participate in article talkpage discussions/don't know anything about the subject or the link are not. A less biased warning template should be used, and discussion allowed. If there's no discussion after 2 weeks or so, I don't see a problem with deleting the link; and I don't see a problem with deleting a napster-ish link like a whole recent popsong without warning. The problem is that the YouTube purge is over-deletionist and fairly hostile--it is not educating editors about how to use YouTube per policy, it's just giving them the idea that YouTube shouldn't be used, and that is both incorrect and harmful. Moreover, reasonable objections to deletions--such as, the owner has copyright and is willing to license link under GDFL!--are being ignored in favor of trying to delete all YouTube links period. "More reliable source" is just source bias. YouTube offers stable storage and easy accessibilty for film/video--it's not any less or more reliable as a storage/delivery medium than a website. Cindery 02:26, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Exactly--just because you can't upload content to YouTube and tag it as GDFL doesn't mean you can't release it under GDFL (and one would assume that if the author uploaded their own YouTube work to Wiki, they were licensing it, since editing Wikipedia is done under the agreement "You agree to license your contributions under GDFL." ) Establishing that the Wiki publisher and the YouTube publisher are the same, and/or that the Wiki publisher has copyright/author permission/knowledge should be established via discussion, not mass deletions which imply the problem is YouTube, rather than policy. As far as I know, this is the beginning of centralized discussion of YouTube as a source (And sorry it has gone off-topic per OR--it should be discussed on all the policy boards, though, esp RS and C.) The problem with "burden to argue for inclusion" is that the mass-deleters are deleting even when there are valid objections, and directing complaints to their own talkpage, not policy boards or article talkpages, where they claim they are "experts," and tell people, for example, that if there's no copyright issue it's OR...A lot of valuable external links and sources could be lost that way. Cindery 02:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
We can validate the content used in videos the same way photo content is validated--case by case, based on knowledge of the subject. Videos--whether they are linked to from a website or YouTube (and there is no difference except convenience and stability of storage)-- can be cited as sources to verify that someone or somthing existed; that something happened; that something changed or is gone but was once there. Stop-motion photography can illustrate how something happens, like cell division..."He read at the Bowery Poetry Club in 2006" can be footnoted with a video of him reading at the Bowery Poetry Club...
Any link that is good will be surely sooner or later added back if it fits the criteria.--you're ignoring the original point made--when the author of the Brent Corrigan video verified the GDFL license and added back the link, the same person deleted it and told him/her it was OR. He deleted it after I noticed what was going on, and didn't stop until I said I was crossposting to NOR. He is not objecting to the use of the video as a source--he's deleting an external link on the grounds that it is OR (after telling the author to go to his page, not a policy board, for "review" by "experts" if there were any objections to this. It's fairly obvious that the person who posted the Brent Corrigan link thinks the deletion, the "No YouTube 99% of the time" template, and the review process by "experts" is "official"/Wiki policy--and it's not. That certainly makes adding back links problemmatic. The YouTube purge is not being conducted according to policy. If there is an urgent need to mass-delete YouTube links, policy should address that.) Cindery 17:14, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Fox news certainly "edits and modifies" the news any way they see fit. :-) But, the point is that there is no difference between uploading a video to a personal website and uploading it to YouTube--the source is not the issue. Establishing that the source is valid/use of the source is valid has to do with policy, not YouTube as a source; the same policies apply to any use of a source as apply to use of YouTube as a source. (And personal publishers are just as liable as whole news outlets; lack of legal accountability is not relevant). Deleting YouTube links on sight from BLP articles because they are YouTube links is not a good idea--a query should be placed on talkpage, unless you know enough about the subject to know that the YouTube link is or contains false and defamatory information. There is, for example, a YouTube link of Joshua Clover reading at the Bowery Poetry Club in 2006. The author is happy it's there; the subject is happy it's there; readers are happy it's there. No one who was at the reading--including the subject and the author-- believes the link is anything other than a completely unmodified recording of the reading. In the absence of any complaint from the subject, the author, regular editors of the article, or any editor who happens by and thinks the video of the reading is somehow a BLP violation, removing it simply because it is a YouTube link would be idiotic, and fighting to reinstate the link would waste the time of the subject, the author, and the regular editors of the article. If there is some need to verify all YouTube links in advance, that should be clearly addressd in policy--for example, by requiring that YouTube authors post on talkpages of articles "I license this under GDFL" after they have posted a Youtube link, or someone else has posted their link. Everything that is put into an article is subjected to scrutiny under all policies. Using YouTube is not a de facto policy violation--so unless there's a policy violation problem with a YouTube link, YouTube links should not be deleted just because they are YouTube links. Cindery 18:17, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
That is flatly untrue, per RS--YouTube can be used as a source, because film and video can be used as source; it just usually isn't--like blogs and personal websites, YouTube is more oft used in external links, but there are exceptions--and they should be clearly delineated, with examples, in policy. I'm still waiting on any discussion regarding whether use of a (GDFL-verified) external link wholly owned by the author is OR. (clearly, it's not OR. Like blogs or websites relevant to the subject of an article, a YouTube external link about the subject is not OR). Cindery 18:48, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
No, none of that is true. YouTube can be used as a primary source, and V delineates exceptions. And GDFL is applicable to YouTube. The feasible way to verify GDFL is to query on the talkpage of articles about whether the YT/Wiki publisher were the same, and/or if the Wiki publisher has GDFL permission from the author and can attest to that. Assuming that the GDFL license is not in effect because the source is YT is in direct violation of C policy: "It is not the job of rank and file Wikipedians to police copyright violations"--thing to do is query on talkpage or make a report at Copyright problems.
Per Rs, this is all there is about YT:
YouTube
Some concerns have been raised about the use of YouTube as a source. YouTube is a website where the contributors are unknown, and in which material that may be useful to Wikipedia articles is almost always suspect of copyright violations. As such, linking to video content in YouTube should almost always be avoided as a source.
Per V, this would apply to self-published YT:
Self-published sources in articles about themselves
Self-published material, whether published online or as a book or pamphlet, may be used as sources of information about the author, so long as there is no reasonable doubt who wrote the material, and so long as it is:
Cindery 19:22, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
..the feasible way, per copyright policy, is to query on the talkpage of the article, not delete the links on source bias. If some of the work really is an infringement, such as a recent pop song, that would be separate from the problem of establishing who the publisher is/GDFL. If there's a question about copyvio, such as GDFL, copyright policy clearly states that a query should be placed on talkpage and/or a cr report made. I think V/NOR/C and RS should all be updated to address YouTube a little better; and that it should be made very clear on pages where the mass-deleting is being done, via template, that "No YouTube" is not a Wiki policy, but that use of YouTube is covered under extant policy. Cindery 20:01, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
While I am extremely confident and hopeful that we will reach agreement, I still think we're missing each other--the problem with the mass purge isn't at all the purge of clearly suspected copyvios, like whole pop songs (a lot of YT links are whole popsongs/music videos, and I see no problem with delete-first let the publisher justify it, and I think the YT purge is very helpful to Wiki in the thankless task of getting rid of those. It would be a waste of everyone's time for talkpage discussion to go down about those--edit summary more than sufficient.) The problem I see is specifically with the no-GDFL assumption, and no explanation about how to affirm GDFL license. They're mass-deleting with the edit summary: rm per EL; no licensing info--that's the technicality they're using. Talkpage template and discussion should happen for cases where the only suspected copyvio is a question about authorship/GDFL. I don't even see the need for mass deletions for that reason--better to wait for complaints. It makes a lot of busywork for everyone, and leaves editors confused--either they think YT is not allowed period, or they're left asking, well, how can I license it under GDFL? And I see a problem with the bias in the YT purge--for example, instead of explaining, oh, just verify GDFL on the talkpage, the project finds another excuse--like OR--to try to purge Wiki of YouTube. If there's a huge GDFL prob with YT, that should be explained in policy for editors: put a talkpage notice giving license, etc. Cindery 20:29, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
GDFL can be ascertained by affirming that the YT publisher and the Wiki publisher are the same, or that the Wiki publisher has the permission of the YT author, if they are not the same. The problem is: because it is not possible to look at YT link on Wiki and determine that the author of YT and Wiki is the same, there can be questions. Since it is not known either way, it is not a clear copyright suspicion--it's a question which should be asked. In order to help editors answer this question, a clear explanation should be provided on the talkpages of articles where the question is asked, and in policy. Say, for example, that I want to publish a YT external link. I do so. It is purged with no talkpage discussion or explanation--just "EL-license" summary. I figure out what "no licensing information" means exactly and what to do about it, and post on talkpage that I am the author of both the YT link and the Wiki edit including it, satisfying GDFL license requirement. If it were already explained in policy "because GDFL license cannot be absolutely determined from YT, please post on talkpage re authorship when including a YT link," that would make everything much simpler. It is not C policy to delete questionable cr violations, but to inquire on talkpage. When the YT links are deleted without discussion or even a template, people do not get any info about what they should do to affirm GDFL. In the gap, some great links will be lost to confusion--in addition to C policy about talkpage posting re cr vios, that's the argument in favor of querying instead of deleting wothout notice or discussion (esp. in absence of policy info re YT/GDFL). A great deal of YT links are not under copyright and will never be under copyright--the vast majority of YT publishers are releasing their work into the public domain. As a self-publishing medium, the cr issues don't pertain much to the users, but to cases where the users are using material they don't hold copyright to under fair use. Publishing on both YT and Wiki is not a reasonable suspicion of copyvio on its face--unless the material has cr issues, it is extremely unlikely that GDFL is an issue. Nobody is putting anything on YT and hoping it won't be linked anywhere else--people publish on YT for public domain. Cindery 21:04, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
Youtube can any type of source: primary or secondary. If someone publishes an original video on Youtube, it is primary source. If someone posts something from TV, it is a secondary source. -- Ineffable3000 23:51, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
I propose that we add a section that says:
Self-publishing credibility depends on the credibiliy of the source, and what the source is used for. For example, an acclaimed poet who videorecords another acclaimed poet and posts it on YT can be evaluated differently for source credibility than <insert less credible example>. The source in that case is not YT, but the acclaimed poet. If the self-published source is used in a BLP, it's a great source for what they subject has said, believes, etc--that's why a notable subject's blog is included often in external links.
The problem with current YT purge is the terms--"EL, sites that don't provide licensing information," which directs the editor to the EL guidelines, which currently read "YouTube should not be linked"--but no policy states that YT should not be linked. Using EL is a case of using a guideline to trump policy, and guidelines don't trump policy. Any YT link with a material suspected copyvio, like music video etc., should be deleted with edit summary: suspected copyright violation. Any YT links for which there is merely a GDFL question should be left alone, or a query posted. The EL guideline is currently inaccurate per policy, and directing people to it after deleting with that justification wrongly implies that YT can't be linked. Cindery 00:23, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I do not think it is ok in any situation. If you wrote a notable article, someone else will write about it. -- Ineffable3000 00:40, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I would say the discussion has only just begun where the EL guideline is being abused to contradict the C policy--it may even be a huge violation of WP:POINT. Cindery 02:22, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
No, I'm pointing out that the purge has been pushed to an extreme--deleting under EL with EL link takes editors to the EL guideline, which is currently in conflict with/contradicts policy. Cindery 02:46, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
No, you're just wrong--the current wording of EL is that Youtube cannot be linked, and that is not policy--YT is not prohibited. Moreover, the most conservative estimate from the person doing the deleting is that at least 10% of the YT links are legit. (He thinks he's deleted about 2000, so that's 200 legit links--I think it's a significant underestimate because he's not carefilly evaluating them.) There should be a clear copyvio suspicion per content, and the deletions should be labelled as suspected copyvios--deleting them under EL is is not policy, and harms Wikipedia by misinforming editors--the problem is not YT per EL, and deleting YT under EL doesn't tell people how to use YT for the benefit of Wikipedia. Cindery 03:52, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
No, following research at EL, I have discovered that the EL policy was changed about two weeks ago to exclude YT on the EL technicality, so I am addressing the change there (where a regular EL guideline discussion page editor noted in the first place Nov 3 that no change was necessary, because C covers C violations already). This is very recent--excluding YouTube on an EL technicality--and the same two people who made the change then immediately began deleting all YT links as EL violations. YouTube copyvios are already covered under C policy; excluding them under EL contradicts every other policy--because YT links are not prohibited by policy simply because they are YT links. I noticed also that you were quick to jump into the initial YouTube discussion at AN before it went to EL--you appear to have a strong anti-YouTube bias. Cindery 06:47, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
A source which is "notorious" for violating copyright laws can be dealt with under WP:C. As the EL guideline editor said on Nov 3: copyvio links are already forbidden, and it isn't a specific problem with Youtube but with all publicly contributed sites As far as "readers who respect authors" goes, Gerry doesn't seem to have seen the many valuable self-publishing examples unique to YouTube, which make it an amazing resource with potential to be more amazing ( Geriatric 1927?) Propagating a source bias denigrates the legitimate and valuable uses of YouTube; it doesn't merely get rid of the lame music-vid copyvios. Daily Kos is a blog, and needn't be confused with thousands of lamer blogs merely because it is a blog--we didn't ban blogs, and we didn't ban YouTube. No self-publishing mediums have been banned, there are rules for their use and inclusion. The problem here is that a tiny handful of people, without much discussion, changed the EL guideline two weeks to contradict policy, and are mass deleting using the guideline, which is creating confusion and could result in the loss of excellent sources and links. And yes, jossi was one of the original handful--see his talkpage and the Admin Noticeboard discussion. Jossi thinks YouTube is a disaster in the making, which justifies a pre-emptive strike. Again, deleting the copyvio links is a great project. Banning YouTube on a technicality is not--there are too many valuable exceptions, and there is no reason to treat YouTube differently than any other self-publishing medium. As Wjohnson rightly pointed out, it is the underlying author who is the source, not YouTube. Conflating all those authors with the bad apples who upload music vids is wrong and does a disservice to the quality of Wikipedia. Cindery 22:48, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
...now you're going way out on a hypothetical limb. By that argument: the internet could be hacked at anytime! Because of this vulnerability, the very possibility that anyone could hack into and change it, nothing is truly verifiable or reliable, and we may as well stop now. I mean, how do we really know when we link to the NYT that the Flying Spaghetti Monster didn't rerrange all the words with his noodly appendage after we linked it??? :-) It's an epistemological mystery that can never be solved by mere mortals...Meanwhile, the EL policy was just changed--it no longer states that YT is prohibited under EL.
ps: Have you read the YouTube article?--"reputable news organizations" license content to YT. And many self-publishers with perfectly fine reps publish on YT for public domain. The assumption that because people can publish whatever they want, therefore we cannot trust them is predicated on the assumption that freedom=unreliability. (I think there's an opposite argument to be made--that a lack of freedeom; being financially beholden to the advertising dollars of large corps-- can adversely affect reliability.) But, anyway, most YT links will be used/are used as external links, not sources. If the subject, the author, or any editor thinks that such a link is unreliable in any way, they can, do, and will speak up about it--as they do for blogs and websites. YT is no more nor less a reliable source; anything can be changed on a blog or website at any time. Cindery 02:04, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
You seem to have missed the part above where I said EL was just changed back--the guideline now accurately reflects policy. Per RS and V, there are exceptions whereby YT can be used as source. Perhaps you should go to RS and V to argue that they should be changed--falsely stating on OR that YT is not to be used to support any claims in articles on NOR discussion page won't change V or RS. Cindery 03:41, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
What you seem not to get is that the possibilty that the use of a source is unreliable doesn't make the source unreliable. A YouTube video used as photographs are can be a legitimate and extremely useful use of a source. A specific complaint about a specific video or photo would be necessary to argue that the photo or video was unreliable; that photography and film are user-manipulable sources is not a sufficient generality to exclude all uses of film and photography on principle. Cindery 03:39, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
For video evidence that something happened or used to exist, I could post a digitized YouTube link of a film and you would have to argue on talkpage of article, provide evidence, and gain consensus that it was unreliable (on some other basis than because it was self-published, as most Wikipedia photographs are. Depending on who I am, I could be an extremely reliable or unreliable source--think back on the acclaimed poet videotaping the other acclaimed poet). If I re-published a public domain Krazy Kat cartoon I videotaped off my laptop from the Library of Congress site in a more easily accessible YouTube link, I could cite it as a footnote in a sentence making a descriptive claim about the specific cartoon. If you wanted to object, again, you would have to discuss on talkpage and gain consensus; provide evidence/make argument that the YT link was unreliable. Cindery 04:15, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Re Crum75, Yes, it's reliable until proven unreliable, because we assume good faith that editors are adding information to improve the encyclopedia. If there is some problem with any addition, other editors revert edits and explain why. In a talkpage discussion regarding a YT link used as a source, if the link was a good source, you would lose if your argument was "even if it is a good source, it should be excluded because it is YT." Source reliability isn't established by policy or guideline--it's established through the editorial process, which relies upon policies and guidelines.
RE Jossi, I realize that you would like to denigrate my understanding of policy rather than admit that the EL guideline was changed two weeks ago --without adequate discussion or consensus-- to contradict policy, but it's too transparent to take seriously. I did notice that you immediately ran over to EL to try to reinsert a prohibition on YT, though! :-) Cindery 06:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
As you are aware, I have brought it up at EL. You've reverted changes by Barberio and Wjohnson which deleted YouTube, and are now up to 2RR--without bringing it up on talkpage yourself. Is there some reason you are reverting the other editors without discussion? Cindery 16:26, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I have a question regarding a possible conflict between WP:NOR and WP:copyvio (and I apologize if this question has been raised and answered before - it's not in the current NOR article or talk page, from what I can see). If one is creating an article about a novel, such as my recent The Antipope article, how is it possible to insert a synopsis of the novel that is neither OR (if one writes it oneself), or copyvio (if taken from a "reputable" source)? Would this case be an exception to the NOR policy? Thanks in advance. Carre 20:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi. I am not sure where else to post this. I am wondering if some people can give me their opinion as to whether I have crossed the line into original research on a page I recently made. The material in question is not currently showing on Saipan Sucks but can be seen at http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Saipan_Sucks&diff=90000413&oldid=90000009 Thanks! C.m.jones 22:55, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
Since I have not gotten any comments I am requesting here again. Please help.
Is this OR:
At the webpage http://www.saipansucks.com/about.htm the author's name does not appear. The page is written anonymously.
But not really. Because with the same page opened in your browser, go to View > Page Source (in Mozilla) or View > Source (in IE).
On line 39 of the html source code you see the name William Betz as author.
Can I cite the html source and have that not be OR?
Also, if one does a whois with the domain saipansucks.com, the name William Betz is shown as the Administrative Contact.
Can I cite that and have that not be OR?
In both cases one must take an ACTION. And no published source mentions that by these actions one can find the page's author. I in a sense "created" the way, did the research for this.
Can I cite the whois lookup and have that not be OR?
C.m.jones 22:26, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi.
I've noticed these:
For the first, one can include multiple points of view even if one is not verifiable, so this ( WP:NOR) to me sounds more like an issue of verifiability and not neutrality unless we are saying that if it's unpublished it could therefore be simply a personal opinion. Saying it "promotes the inclusion of multiple points of view" doesn't seem to make much sense, rather it might be better to say "promotes the inclusion of only verifiable, attributable points of view" or something along these lines as it doesn't just promote the addition of any ol' POVs.
For the second, this sounds more like Notability, as in order to "belong" in Wikipedia all that is needed, really, according to WP:V is publication in citable, and ideally, reliable sources, and "original research" as defined in this very policy page ( WP:NOR) means "unpublished material", not how many people hold the viewpoint. Then again, I could be wrong... 70.101.147.74 03:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Part of the project page used to say that a journalist could be a secondary source. For the purposes of wikipedia, no person can be a source, whatsoever. A person is not verifiable, only their work is. So a person is not a source. The interview, the article, the book, is a source, but a person is never a source. I cannot imagine the horror of citation to "Mr John Brown at Rutgers" and then editors having to call him up to interview him to verify the article. That would be an absolute nightmare, not to mention eminently impossible to achieve. I strongly hope that others agree with my position, that only works are sources. Wjhonson 07:06, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
As some of you may know, I've been creating a series of articles about the local administrative units of Ethiopia (they are called Regions, Zones & woredas or districts). Until yesterday, I've been having a fair amount of luck sticking to my plan of simply providing the data from reliable sources (the Ethiopian Central Statistical Agency for the 2005 population numbers, maps from UN-OCHA for geographical details) with the minimum amount of interpretation needed. (Let's not debate whether my work is in part or whole OR; if it is, then so is every contribution Rambot has made.) There's been a few places where my sources have contradicted each other, but I've been able to avoid the thicket of OR up until now.
Yesterday, I was exploring a new source -- the Disaster Prevention & Preparedness Agency of Ethiopia's website -- & discovered that it had a number maps that I could make good use of. However, many of these maps introduce a number of important complications into my work: not only do these maps document new subnational administrative units (the existence of some I suspected from other sources), but different boundaries for many of these units. From everything I can tell, this source is of equal reliability as the others (it's part of the Ethiopian government, just like the CSA, & the other materials are produced by the UN). In other words, I have a problem that needs some kind of explanation.
The best solution -- find a source that explains these discrepencies -- is not an option. I've done a few Google searches, & I failed to find any explanations: that one source was using incorrect information, or perhaps these were routine administrative reorganizations. (I'm not surprised: with the possible exception of the military, the Ethiopian government is understaffed & providing English translations of administrative changes is not that high on their lists.) I've done enough local library searches for information on Ethiopia to know that I don't have printed sources close to hand. (I might in maybe in 9 or 12 months, with help from a dedicated reference librarian -- books on the recent Ethiopian are uncommon.)
If this wasn't being created for Wikipedia, I'd provide the most reasonable explanation -- that the differences are most likely due to the expected administrative reorganizations reported at different times -- & leave it at that. On the other hand, if I were following the steps I described in Wikipedia: These are not Original Research (& I'll confess, I was the one who started that essay) of simply providing the information & leave this for the reader to sort out, I believe this would abandon the reader at the moment they need some kind of guidance -- even if it is bad advice.
Some might say this is a good case where I should ignore all of the rules, & just provide my reasonable explanation. However, in the last few months the "Ignore All Rules clause" has been abused (or alleged to have been abused) so often that I'm not sure that I could effectively invoke it here. While I'm following the spirit of "no original research" here (& I doubt anyone will argue that administrative reorganizations never happen), I am concerned that some enthusiastic Wikipedian will declare that I am violating the letter & engage in a protracted & disruptive edit war to remove all of my work. I'd rather work towards a solution first. -- llywrch 19:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
I have chosen to use the time-honoured device of improving Wikipedia to make my point about these two sentences:
My point is that it is silly to have a requirement that primary sources have to be intelligible to someone who knows nothing about the subject. And also it is silly to try to prohibit interpreation of primary source material where there is no originality in that interpretation - ie an interpretation that no-one who understands the subject would genuinely disagree with.
I have therefore created the article English women's cricket team in Australia and New Zealand in 1934-35.
Apart from bit about the quatrain in the lead, everything else in the article has been derived from primary sources - either scorecards of cricket matches, or from photographs. And I have readily interpreted those primary sources. Every cricket fan (specialist), if they were so motivated, would be able to agree that what I have written follows immediately from the primary sources I have cited. Someone who knows nothing of the sport (non-specialist), will not.
My question is therefore: is it reasonable for this new article, English women's cricket team in Australia and New Zealand in 1934-35, to exist? jguk 17:57, 1 December 2006 (UTC)
Robert, thank you for your comments. I think they help illustrate what I am saying.
Any cricket fan looking through the article or the scorecards would conclude that Myrtle Maclagan was the star player - her wickets need to be considered as well as her runs. It is something any specialist (here, cricket fan) would agree on, but that a non-specialist (ie non-cricket fan) cannot immediately see. (In fact the Morning Post quatrain, which is from a secondary source, further supports the conclusion.) By making that conclusion, I have added to the article, and hopefully made it more interesting to the reader, who may then be tempted to learn more about Myrtle Maclagan (and probably Betty Snowball too). It is a worthwhile thing to add. Given that it is an interpretation easily checked by the reader (and remember that cricket fans are the target audience), I think I should be able to add that interpretation to the article.
Yes, I am dealing with something on which relatively little has been written - unlike your baseball example, which I agreee appears to be comparable in every other respect. This makes what I write in WP more important (if you want to learn about the English women's cricket tour of 1934-35 where else can you go, whereas if you want to know more about third basemen, I guess you have hundreds of options other than WP open to you). It also means that it is reasonable for the article's author to draw out on WP as much information that is available to the author. Not so as to give voice to his own theories - I agree that that is against this policy - but so as to place the subject in proper context.
The wording of the policy makes it clear that I can interpret a reliable secondary source in an unoriginal way even if that secondary source cannot be understood by a non-specialist. It seems odd that I can't do the same with a reliable primary source. jguk 18:47, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
All articles are interpretations of source information. That's what putting together an article that is not plagiarised involves: interpreting your sources and putting together a text that conveys information already in those sources in a way that will get your point across and interest the reader. When I refer to interpreting sources in an unoriginal way, that is the process I am referring to.
The wording of WP:NOR certainly does make a distinction between primary and secondary sources in this respect. It says:
For that reason, anyone—without specialist knowledge—who reads the primary source should be able to verify that the Wikipedia passage agrees with the primary source. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a secondary source.
This requirement is not reproduced for secondary sources. So it follows that we are allowed interpretations of secondary sources provided those interpretations are unoriginal - ie they do not introduce new ideas or concepts.
If, however, you mean that we should not make original interpretations full stop, but we can reproduce original interpretations of others (ie by reference to a secondary source that makes original interpretations of a primary source), then we really need WP:NOR to say that. jguk 19:09, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Is there a consensus as to whether or not original research can be removed at any time? Taxico 08:08, 3 December 2006 (UTC)
Please see discussion at Wikipedia_talk:Verifiability#The_first_sentence - it effects the first sentence of this page too. -- Tango 00:07, 4 December 2006 (UTC)
Is an audio recording, such as a song, considered a primary source? Can it be used for information, or is that original research? A small discussion (and many different reverts) has been going on at Love (The Beatles album) ( | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) and Talk:Love (The Beatles album) ( | article | history | links | watch | logs). — Gordon P. Hemsley→ ✉ 01:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)