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I am guessing I'm in the wrong place but am hoping the good graces of Wikipedia will take mercy and tell me where I need to be to ask my question. I recently posted my second article of creation. I was told that I did not need to have it approved through the draft process and could just move it to article status myself. So I did. Very quickly someone came along and gave it B status. Then I went to google it and couldn't find it only to learn that new pages have to be reviewed or wait 90 days. I didn't know that! Now I can't find it anywhere on the new pages to be reviewed list either! My creation Christianization of the Roman Empire as caused by attractive appeal is lost in an alternate universe somewhere! Is there anything I can do to bring it home? I would like to volunteer to help with this whole review process thingy, but it looks a little overwhelming for a relative newby. There's so much I don't know. Wikipedia is a morass. :-) Jenhawk777 ( talk) 21:32, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
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Deployed earlier today:
– Novem Linguae ( talk) 06:57, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
I'm still very new to actually reviewing pages even though I've been going through NPP school for awhile and so far I've mostly been focusing on redirects. But I've noticed that the process for unreviewing a page is not ideal. Maybe it's just because I'm new or because the green just doesn't stand out as much as it should on my screen, but I've happened to accidentally unreview a page (both redirects) twice. Obviously my mistakes are my mistakes, but I was wondering if maybe someone has pointed out that a more distinct visual difference might be useful? Like an x instead of a checkmark either way for unreviewing. Or a way to set a preference to get a prompt saying "are you certain you want to unreview this page?" Also my understanding (which may be flawed) is that things really shouldn't rely on colour for accessibility reasons. By the way, if anyone sees any issues with the limited reviews I've done so far, please let me know. I'd rather be set on the right path now than find out I've been messing things up for who knows how long later on. Clovermoss (talk) 03:46, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
WP is becoming Botipedia. See Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard#Dams article. Atsme 💬 📧 11:11, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Requests for comment/Article creation at scale. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 03:18, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
There are several proposals in this workshop that would affect notability and the NPP workflow. For example, "Proposed solution 1.1 (to issue 1: Mass creations)" is "Require new articles to be supported by at least one citation to a reliable source that is not a database." The relationship between GNG and SNG is also discussed. This talk page/workshop may also be a good opportunity to inject some of your own proposals. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 03:18, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Wikipedia:Page_Curation/Suggested_improvements#Club_all_"were_created_by"_options_into_one_drop_down
Hi all. Brand new reviewer here, freshly trained by the wonderful @ Atsme. Here’s hoping she or anyone else can answer this. When I am in the new page feed, I can see in red a page was previously deleted. Where do I see the new page? I am kinda feeling a little stuck. This page is not suitable for Wikipedia at present. Can I really draftify it without a discussion? I also want to know how I can compare it against the previous article, and also want to know how it was deleted? I know I can only CSD an article that was deleted after consensus to delete was reached, AND it needs to be substantially similar. Can’t figure out how to actually check those two criteria though?
One page I just CSDd did actually have the AFD discussion in the talk page. I checked that and there was consensus to delete. Given the new article was a one sentence stub I CSD tagged it. Also, beginners opinion here, but I’m unsurprised at the backlog. Looking at it, very few articles stand out as ones I can quickly review. Is there a reason we allow editors with so few contributions to be autoconfirmed and create articles? I feel like articles for creation works better? I feel sort of stuck at NPP - I either have to mark the article as OK, or it gets tagged or deleted. Whereas AFC I feel like the junk can quickly be declined, then the writer has a chance to resubmit? Any tips for a newbie? I also can’t figure a way to sort out the new pages feed into categories like one can at AFC? Thanks so much everyone and happy to be part of the team! MaxnaCarta ( talk) 10:21, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
I am doing what I can to help. I appreciate all of you and the work you do. i know the last thing you want is to read a long story. But I thought if anything, this may be something more editors can learn from.
During NPP I found Ohana (surname) dab page - it was just a list, and I checked to see if there was a page. I found Ohana (disambiguation) page - and there was ample room in the d page to move the surnames and redirect. The page creator began reverting the redirect, and the merge. The page creator erased every message I put on their talk page. I decided to send the redirected page to AfD so they would stop reverting the redirect.
The page creator
started an RFC on the dab/surname topic. At the RFC an admin (BD2412) told them they should if possible include references providing information about surname origins and usage.
. The dab creator then added a reference. Next BD2412 came to the AfD to tell me I should be trouted and blocked because there can't be references in a dab page. So I then erased the reference from the dab pages and came back to announce it in the AfD. I then went to
BD2412's talk page, to ask about the comments in AfD. They did not answer, but instead came to the AfD to threaten taking me to ANI for erasing references. Me I am following what they said, there can't be references in a dab page... I commented that they should have discussed with me on their talk page. Next they went to their talk page and said I was
trolling and they mentioned blocking me.
What started all of this? I saw two short list/landing pages named Ohana and thought they should be combined. I really thought I was improving the project. I plan to take a break after this experience but I bring this here. Have a great weekend everyone! Bruxton ( talk) 00:35, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
I don't want to interfere in this but as a general comment do be aware that dab pages and surname pages are quite different and have different requirements in respect of references, formatting etc: it's common practice for a surname page to be broken out of a dab page. Ingratis ( talk) 07:14, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Sorry that you had to go though all this. It shouldn't have escalated as quickly as it did. We all have bad days and can overreact to things and this time it seems you just got caught up in it. I hope you stick around and don't let a one off like this discourage your important work. Dr vulpes ( 💬 • 📝) 23:11, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Discontinued editing due to persistent harassment. Good bye.Please see WP:BITE and WP:NPPNICE. Andrew🐉( talk) 09:34, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
Happy editing! I approved your dab page. Second post to them
do not revert the redirect - it duplicates a disambig which exists and is not too long. Please read WP:DABNAME Specifically,They erased the posts, including one from another user. In any event I have given myself a timeout from editing. It is good to take a step back - and in doing so one can reflect and move forward with a better approach. Bruxton ( talk) 16:32, 5 September 2022 (UTC)A list of name-holders can be included in a People section of the page. The page exists for that purpose.If you have further questions you can ask at WP:NPP. Thanks and keep up the good work!
One of the reasons reviewers get frustrated is when they encounter push-back after an action. There are examples of this above. Some of this can be avoided if we rely more on consensus-based discussions rather than unilateral actions. One scenario that comes to mind is Merge/Redirect.
The tutorial says If you come upon an article on a duplicate topic… [that] has content that warrants merging, perform a merge.
The flowchart says the essentially the same. They both link to
WP:MERGE, which says If the need for a merge is obvious, editors can be bold and simply do it
It goes on to say otherwise, start a merge discussion. The NPP tutorial does not directly mention starting merge discussions.
Occasionally, there will be a new article on “Joe actor” that should be merged into the existing article “Joseph actor”. But it is much more common that we will have a new article on a topic may not be notable but could be covered in another article. Obviously, the creator of the article would disagree. If you follow VP discussions on stubs/short articles/combining into broader articles/etc., you are aware that this is a contentious subject. Most potential merges we find at NPP probably should be discussed.
I think the tutorial should be updated to reflect this and give further guidance, such as:
MB 20:14, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Doing a merge can be a lot of work, indeed it can and hence why it is not within the expected tasks of new page reviewers and anything in the tutorial that suggest it is should be removed, even if aeons ago I wrote it myself. There's nothing to stop an editor doing anything that improves the encyclopedia, but IMO the general best approach here would be AfD with 'Delete or Merge' as the rationale, and let someone else do the merging if that is the outcome. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 00:19, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
is not within the expected tasks of new page reviewers, but I don't agree you should AFD an article unless you really think it should be deleted. The first section of WP:BEFORE links to WP:ATD which says
If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the pageand then discusses Merging. I think proposing merges would be best practice; it accomplishes the same thing and still
lets someone else do the merging if that is the outcome. There are just some NPP housekeeping details to address, which are what I was proposing. MB 00:51, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Back in July, it seemed like extending NOINDEX on unreviewed articles was imminent. I proposed a maint message on unreviewed pages that would explain why the article was not visible in search engines and what could be done to improve the article and increase its chances of being reviewed and indexed. NOINDEX has been delayed, so this has been on the back-burner. We do expect NOINDEX to still happen, hopefully soon.
The original proposal was this:
This article has not yet been reviewed. While it has been added to Wikipedia, it will not be visible to external
search engines until it is reviewed to ensure it complies with
core policies. Articles must be about a
notable subject, be
verifiable and not have
copyright violations or be
promotional. |
Doing something like this had wide conceptual support, but there was concern that such a message was just too obtrusive to be put on every new article until it was reviewed. The message used at the German Wikipedia was suggested as an alternative. That is just a small box in the upper right corner of an article that says (which means Not Seen (reviewed)). That is from the Flagged revisions feature of Mediawiki which they use. If you want to see that on an actual article, go here. I don't think pursuing anything requiring software changes is likely to happen quickly given that we don't even get bugs fixed. As an alternative, something that we can probably implement without the WMF would be a more simple and unobtrusive message like:
Option 3
This article is unreviewed. ( Learn more)
The "Learn more" would be a link to a help page with all the info from the first banner. You can see how this would look on a actual article here. Should we pursue the last example? MB 02:05, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Option 4
This article has not been reviewed and may not be visible to external
search engines. (
Learn more) |
— Ingenuity ( talk • contribs) 14:33, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Here is a smaller version:
Option 5
This article is unreviewed. ( Learn more) |
- MB 16:49, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
How bold can we be with retargeting redirects when reviewing and can we review the redirect if we've retargeted it? This is my biggest issue I run into when the redirects aren't an easy approve.
Example: Annal Gandhi - I was going to bring this to RfD and then realized I might just be stuck in my own head. It's not related to target article ( Mahatma Ghandhi) according to Google main/news/scholar searches in English, though I'm not sure if there's a Tamil relevancy I'm missing. However, it is the name of a government hospital in Tiruchirappalli. Would it be fine to retarget to Tiruchirappalli, add the info about the hospital, and mark it as reviewed, or is there a better course of action?
Thanks! originalmess talk 09:09, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
I have a question regarding sending an article to draft. What should a reviewer do when they send an article to draft but the article's creator ignores the draft and recreates the article in main space a week later? It has happened a few times so far. In the latest instance I have sent the recreated article to AfD. But is that the right course? Thanks. Bruxton ( talk) 15:32, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
This page was proposed for deletion by Bruxton ( talk · contribs) on 6 September 2022. |
I've been thinking about how the autopatrolled user right seems to be a persistent source of controversy. Perhaps it would be better if the autopatrolled user right could not be applied for by users at all, and instead would be granted based on the suggestion of new page patrollers? Since the right doesn't actually allow a user to do anything they couldn't previously, and instead serves to remove noncontroversial articles from the NPP queue, it would make sense that the right is only granted if NPPers suggest it. Not ready to start an RfC yet or anything, but curious if anyone has thoughts about this. Elli ( talk | contribs) 20:42, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Please note there is a discussion at WP:ANI that relates to NPP: WP:Administrators noticeboard/Incidents#Complaint about New Page reviewer draftifying work while I'm still working on it. Polyamorph ( talk) 18:04, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
I have been thinking about how to make draftification more acceptable. I wasn't ready to propose this yet, but it's directly related to the prior section on editors not seeing messages on their Talk Pages about their articles being moved to draft.
A major objection to draftification is that Drafts are too "hidden" and unlikely to be improved; the best way to improve an article is for it to be in mainspace where people will find it.
Currently, you do get this message if you try to create an article when there is a draft:
There is a draft of this article at Draft:Example.
What if we make a major change and just leave an "article" in mainspace containing:
Wikipedia does not have an article by this name. A draft exists at Draft:Example but it has not been approved for inclusion into the encyclopedia. It may not have sufficient references or its quality is not ready for publication. Click the notice at the top of the draft or its talk page for more information and if you can, please consider improving it. |
This means the title would show up in the search box, and could be linked from other articles. That would be a major departure from the current process of Draftification which completely deletes the article from mainspace, and would require a project level RFC. Since the article is not in mainspace, but the title is - it is as likely to be improved in Draft space as it would be if it had stayed in main space. There are other things to work out, like this would prevent someone moving the draft back directly per WP:DRAFTOBJECT, they would have to make a technical move request (which I think would be a good thing). I guess the first thing is to get a feeling whether we think this would be worthwhile, and do we think there is a chance of getting it approved at the project level? MB 15:38, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
{{
promising draft}}
which gives extra consideration before auto deletion. Doing that would may make Draftification more acceptable to to those that are against it today. AFC reviewers currently have to deal with a redirect in the way and can request at G6 deletion of the redirect, so they wouldn't need to be page movers.
MB 17:22, 15 September 2022 (UTC)Don't forget that there are lots of articles in draft space that shouldn't be articles. This seems to presume "should be an article but needs work". Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 19:51, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
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( t · c) buidhe 21:17, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Your input would be appreciated as it is likely to affect how NPP reviews these types of articles. Also, see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Albums/Sources. Atsme 💬 📧 01:48, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Boyu Jin, a Boston College student wasn't able to get their draft reviewed in an unlucky way on the 3 May they were denied for the existence of a copy of the draft and on the 18 may the draft was denied because an article with the same title already exists in main space. Following a merge discussion ensued. The articles in Draft and in Mainspace were created by the same editor and maybe we could think of something to smooth out the collaborations between the wikipedia community and editors from educational institutions. If (hidden) categories for such drafts and articles would be created potentially supportive editors of a certain eduction wikipedia collaboration could take care of such drafts and articles. The articles I have seen from of the Boston college project were rather well elaborated and if such and other editors from other educational institutions were welcomed a bit more it might encourage them to join not only the particular project but then also become a regular wikipedia editor. Paradise Chronicle ( talk) 05:31, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
I am of the mind that advanced NPP reviewers should be given more tools to work with as content oriented reviewers, and that those who have graduated from NPPSCHOOL and/or have otherwise demonstrated their qualifications as quality reviewers should be given those unbundled tools as part of their NPP user rights.
Reason:
When a qualified reviewer decides to nom an article for CSD or PROD, it is because they did the research, and what happens next? They have to tag and wait for an overworked admin to show up and follow-thru. Unfortunately, it often ends in rejection when nomming for CSD & PROD, and then it ends up at AfD where even more valuable time is wasted, not to mention potential drama. Keep in mind that the admins who reject CSDs and PRODs do not review articles at the same level that NPP does – they don't do any BEFORE. Instead, they make their decisions based only on the as-is content. Why is that decision more reliable than that of an NPP reviewer, whose work is most affected by it? It is my understanding that admins are supposed to focus on behavior, not content. Content is NPP's job, but what we are faced with daily can create frustration and burn out because the work we do is not taken seriously, and we catch a lot of slack over it. A quick example of frustration: a 60 edit article creator did not like their unsourced stub being redirected, so they revert the redirect. The article goes back in the NPP queue, and another reviewer shows up, redirects, and the cycle begins again. Next reviewer draftifies, but the article ends up in main space again – Ad infinitum. Ad absurdum. Why not give the reviewer the ability to protect the redirect? I fail to see how an admin's decision is any more reliable than that of a qualified, experienced NPP reviewer who did WP:BEFORE and/or triage before they came to their conclusion. So here is my suggestion:
Unbundle a few admin tools so NPP reviewers can handle their own CSD, PRODs, protect redirects, and close AfDs they are not involved in. That would take a load of tedious work off our admins while at the same time eliminate all the frustration that NPP reviewers deal with daily. It is easy enough to check a reviewer's Curation & AfD log for balance and good judgment. Why all the bureaucracy? I see far more pros than cons to unbundling a few tools. Atsme 💬 📧 19:30, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
To confirm, by "handle their own CSD, PRODs", you mean be able to delete those pages? And by "close AfDs" you also mean delete those pages? As non-admins can already close AfDs as keep as per WP:NAC. Also, is this proposal to create a new permission set I take it, not give to all NPPers? How much of an issue are the redirects? I'd be very cautious with non-admins having the power to delete articles personally. - Kj cheetham ( talk) 20:01, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
This seems to imply there are regular NPP reviewers and those that are "quality reviewers". That is a flawed premise, we expect all reviews to be of quality. I think this is a non-starter on that basis alone. MB 20:24, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
This seems to be the perennial proposal to unbundle certain admin tools, which has historically been a non-starter for a variety of reasons. Sam Walton ( talk) 20:33, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
The answer to the specific scenario posed above is to eliminate the ability to reject draftification. That’s the basic problem. If draftified by NPP, the article should have to go through AFC.— rsjaffe 🗣️ 20:55, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
CSD and page protections deserve a level of independent review before they are acted on, even if the editor in question is highly experienced. Rejected CSDs and PRODs, more often than not, are a sign that these pages should not have been tagged as such, categorically not a pretext for editors to get a license to kill articles. CSD and RfPP don't have significant backlogs, so this proposal doesn't solve any existing problem. Moreover, for the reasons other editors have already pointed out, if this solution goes searching for problems it is bound to run into many of them. signed, Rosguill talk 21:39, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Agree with Rosguill, a second pair of eyes is necessary before an article is deleted. That aside, the chances of permissions to allow non-admins to delete articles being agreed to is virtually non-existent. -- John B123 ( talk) 22:35, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
The proposal is made in good faith and at least people are beginning to think outside the box for solutions to NPP, but this isn't it. Further unbundling of admin tools will always meet with resistance and there have been abuse of rights from NPR rights holders, and other reverts of patrollers' actions are not uncommon. . Even if it were to get consensus, anything like this that needs a tweak at Phabricator would be rejected by the salaried WMF devs who make up their own policies as it suits them. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 23:15, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
To elaborate a bit on my oppose, I believe that granting these rights would risk losing important editorial oversight, as even "obvious" cases could be reasonably challenged by some. I've seen enough threads here recently, as well as trends while reviewing the new pages feed, to believe that several problematic scenarios could arise with this set of expanded NPP rights (at least, assuming the bar for NPP is unchanged): for instance, a borderline A7/G11 gets deleted without the admin's second set of eyes (I have encountered a few that I may have draftified instead), or hasty (i.e., in much less than an hour – while an article is still underconstruction – a move already not advised per WP:DRAFTIFY) draftification occurs and a good-faith creator is met with protection. Similarly, while NPP carries a certain level of trust, closing discussions is not within the primary workflow of NPP, and a dubious patrol (it happens to the best of us) is much more easily addressed/contested than a dubious deletion. I agree with Rosguill that a second set of eyes is beneficial. However, I also will acknowledge the frustration that comes with the job; in my opinion, WP:DRAFTIFY needs an overhaul, more so than NPP user rights. Complex/ Rational 01:58, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Hello, all!
I originally asked for feedback at
the NPP Coordinators noticeboard but was encouraged to seek everyone's thoughts here . I have drafted a proposal to add the suppressredirect
to the NPP toolkit, so we can draftify articles without needing to tag a redirect for deletion. My proposed RfC can be found
in my sandbox. I am open to any and all feedback, but would love some thoughts specifically about how likely you would be to support such a proposal. Thank you! ~
Matthewrb
Talk to me ·
Changes I've made 23:58, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
suppressredirect
is quite a powerful user right since it lets you conduct
round-robin page swaps, which can be used to move pages to almost any title without much oversight. That means that in practice, this proposal could have the unintentional effect of giving new page patrollers the ability to (for instance) close most
requested move discussions or carry out requests at
WP:RM/TR, both things that are generally reserved for folks with
"participation in requested moves and move reviews, or experience closing move requests". I'm not sure I'm quite convinced that the benefits of this proposal would outweigh the harms: it would slightly reduce the workload for the sysops who have to delete the redirects, but that's a pretty minor benefit, isn't it?
Extraordinary Writ (
talk) 00:27, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
The Board of Trustees election has started. Votes will be accepted until 23:59 on 6 September (UTC). View candidate statement videos, and Vote NOW. |
I noticed that a new page patroller had recently created an unsourced BLP and was warned by another editor for it. Clearly if someone believes that creating unsourced BLP is acceptable, they are not suitable to be a patroller. ( t · c) buidhe 01:07, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
In extreme cases you may need to inform an administrator, an NPP coordinator, or post at WP:ANI, but always try to help your colleague first.Is this still our preferred advice? We can always tweak this if necessary. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 01:59, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
In extreme cases you may need to inform an administrator or post at WP:AARV, but always try to help your colleague first. MB 02:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
XRV is not the right place for this, it is for incorrect admin actions, not for actions that might well have been perfectly alright at the time but where now some right needs to be revoked for standard editing reasons. I recently tried to solve a similar case by talking to the admin that gave the right in the first place, but they were extremely dismissive, so that's not always a good solution either. WP:ANI is currently the best solution (if issues persist after talking to the editor involved of course). Fram ( talk) 07:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
Hi folks. Shamefully popping in here to see if anyone can help me troubleshoot why I can't see any pages in my NPP feed? I get the red-text warning 'No pages match your criteria' but I hadn't knowingly set any search criteria yet. Using it on a Chrome browser. Any obvious reasons spring to mind? Cache issues maybe? Zakhx150 ( talk) 12:01, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
There are some interesting discussions taking place which may have an effect on NPPers. I've been attempting to help to get the backlog back to reasonableness, and in reviewing certain articles, I've come across large blocks of uncited text. It has been my process if the article might be notable, or in some cases is definitely notable, to draftify those articles. I am not saying these articles need several sources, but are clearly notable (that's a different case, where I'll mark them reviewed and then add the more ref tag at the top -- then go back in a month or so to see if improvements have been made). These articles simply have large blocks of text, usually the bulk of the article, which are simply unsourced. I've felt it was less disruptive to move them to draft, than simply gutting the article. If the draftifying is objected to, at that point I'll remove the large blocks of texts, since I feel that WP:VERIFY is one of the most important policies on WP -- helping us ensure the quality of the project, as well as adding to our credibility. We had an issue similar to this last year or the year before, where an editor was making Canadian river articles, and adding large blocks of texts describing the course of the river, it's tributaries, etc. Without adding sources, or simply adding a link to database, which did not back up the information they were including. And I believe that also escalated to ANI, before it was resolved that WP:VERIFY is a pretty important concept.
But back to the discussions taking place. The first is User talk:Onel5969#Citing the route section on road articles, there is a link in that to the second discussion on the Roads project, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Highways#Citing The "Route Section" on Road Articles. And finally, there's this brief discussion, as well as this where there's an admin threatening to block me for following policy. Now, looking at this, I bring it up, since I am most likely going to get attacked for following policy, but honestly, I do not know how to review without using policy as the bedrock for reviews. Regardless, I intend to continue reviewing until we get this backlog manageable, but I refuse to ignore policy. I know other reviewers have differing views (since one of the folks disagreeing with my is an NPPer, although not very active). Perhaps someone here could point out to me if I indeed am missing the point. Sorry to blather on. Onel5969 TT me 11:04, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
Quite frankly, your actions were a net negative as they removed content and alienated an editor in an underrepresented topic (South Africa).-
If this is such a big deal, then why didn't you go ahead and add the citations yourself?- my aunt Fanny. Why are we getting these statements from an administrator who a) should be aware that enforcing a fundamental policy is more important than following an essay, and b) that obliging new page patrollers to "just go and find the sources yourself" is a recipe for getting NPP productivity and participation down to zero? We do triage, that means excision and/or draftifying to prevent unsourced stuff in mainspace. - Having said that, if you are heading into conflict you want to keep your ducks in a row; talk page use, formal warnings, and punting things upstairs when 3RR is looming. It's no good getting strung up on the strength of incidentals when you are right in principle. -- Elmidae ( talk · contribs) 14:18, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
it says on my userpage this user recognizes the importance of citing sources. This is true - I just need a little bit of help/guidance for which references to use for what etc.– much more strongly suggestive of confusion. In any case, the burden on NPP is not to add sources, merely determine whether they have a strong likelihood of existing (pass or fail). Onel5969, given how the ANI blew up (even if you're not concerned about the outcome), I might suggest reviewing other articles in the meantime to not give an impression of singling out one editor's work (this is not a feeling only newcomers experience). I second Elmidae's wisdom above as well – NPP is overburdened enough with thankless work as things stand and upholding WP:V is a critical aspect of that work. Complex/ Rational 20:28, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
We've discussed the exponential growth in the expansion of the Internet in some regions and the availability of low-cost smart phones there - well noted that we got some flak from two users who boldly accused us of "xenophobia and racism" for mentioning it in the first draft of the Open Letter - but this excellent article in August by Akhil George in The Times of India, one of the country's most respected newspapers, makes no bones about it: "India recently became the second largest contributor to the English Wikipedia after the US".
If that doesn't confirm the need for reviewers who can read sources in Indic languages and who understand MOS:COMMONALITY, I don't know what does. Any campaigns to recruit new reviewers should bear this in mind, but we want to avoid another Wifione (former admin) which is another reason why reviewers should always be on their mettle and not patrol too quickly - and why admins should be sure to do in-depth due diligence before according the reviewer right. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 21:48, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
Based on the number from yesterday, we should be able to clear the backlog this month at this rate, amazingly! (Of course that rate isn't sustainable though as people will burn-out.) - Kj cheetham ( talk) 10:50, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
The Signpost September issue was published a few minutes ago. This month's 'In focus' column is dedicated to NPP and also includes a reprint of the Open Letter appeal that was signed by a total of 444 editors. As yet there has been no official response on the page for replies to the letter which was published earlier this month on Meta and Wikipedia, and personally notified to around 80 members of the senior WMF staff and Board of Trustees. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 01:44, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
The article about NPP had the highest number of visits on the first day of publication. It didn't generate a lot of comments but nor did any other articles. User comments were supportive. The WMF left a long speech instead of replying to the letter in the right place. They had clearly not read their emails and had confused the Open Letter action with an article about it in a newspaper. The Board of Trustees has not made any public acknowledgment to either the letter or the Signpost article. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 11:51, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
Nominating new articles for AFD, CSD, and others using Page curation does not keep a log. Is there a way to activate it or is it only Twinkle that logs these nominations? Comr Melody Idoghor (talk) 08:14, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
I am so proud of all of you.... the backlog between 1/1/2020 and 4/30/2022 is .... 0. (There's one article there, but it's prodded). Great job folks. As the bard said, "I am amazed and know not what to do." Onel5969 TT me 14:26, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure where this is best raised, so feel free to point me elsewhere, but I wanted to get some eyes on an issue with Page Curation, which describes User:Juandissimo1 as a possible attack page for reasons that aren't obvious (and blatantly faulty). — Compassionate727 ( T· C) 20:51, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Those of you that often get the "I tagged for AFD with Page Curation toolbar and it did everything except make the AFD page" bug, please run the software through its paces and see if you can reproduce it. Pretty good chance it's fixed this time. In the event of great success, all credit goes to Chlod. In the event of great failure, we will all run and hide, making it hard for you to lodge your complaints! :) – Novem Linguae ( talk) 01:05, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Why there's no edit summary on this edit? ─ The Aafī on Mobile (talk) 19:51, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
There is an RfC in progress at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Requests for comment/Article creation at scale about how the community should approach mass creations of articles. Valereee ( talk) 15:04, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
Hello New pages patrol/Reviewers,
Much has happened since the last newsletter over two months ago. The open letter finished with 444 signatures. The letter was sent to several dozen people at the WMF, and we have heard that it is being discussed but there has been no official reply. A related article appears in the current issue of The Signpost. If you haven't seen it, you should, including the readers' comment section.
Awards: Barnstars were given for the past several years (thanks to MPGuy2824), and we are now all caught up. The 2021 cup went to John B123 for leading with 26,525 article reviews during 2021. To encourage moderate activity, a new "Iron" level barnstar is awarded annually for reviewing 360 articles ("one-a-day"), and 100 reviews earns the "Standard" NPP barnstar. About 90 reviewers received barnstars for each of the years 2018 to 2021 (including the new awards that were given retroactively). All awards issued for every year are listed on the Awards page. Check out the new Hall of Fame also.
Software news: Novem Linguae and MPGuy2824 have connected with WMF developers who can review and approve patches, so they have been able to fix some bugs, and make other improvements to the Page Curation software. You can see everything that has been fixed recently here. The reviewer report has also been improved.
Suggestions:
Backlog:
Saving the best for last: From a July low of 8,500, the backlog climbed back to 11,000 in August and then reversed in September dropping to below 6,000 and continued falling with the October backlog drive to under 1,000, a level not seen in over four years. Keep in mind that there are 2,000 new articles every week, so the number of reviews is far higher than the backlog reduction. To keep the backlog under a thousand, we have to keep reviewing at about half the recent rate!
an article should not be tagged for any kind of deletion for a minimum of 15 minutes after creation- I realized I've not been in compliance with this when it comes to G4, my thinking being that if a past discussion has decided the topic is not notable nothing can be done about it and waiting gives false hope. * Pppery * it has begun... 03:00, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
Tagging anything other than attack pages, copyvios, vandalism or complete nonsense only a few minutes after creation may stop the creation of a good faith article and drive away a new contributor. Outside these exceptions, an article should not be tagged for any kind of deletion for a minimum of 15 minutes after creation and it is often appropriate to wait an hour or more.VickKiang (talk) 03:20, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
I've been doing this for a little while now, and I group articles into categories: 1 - new articles - day or two old; 2 - front of the queue - up to 30 days old; Prime reviewing - 31-90 days old; old articles - over 90 days, up to a year old; and very old articles. In my time here, I've never seen the Very old backlog at zero before. Not only did we accomplish that, the backlog of what I would consider Old articles also hit zero for the first time I can remember. Now, of course, I'm not including articles that are in the process of prods/AfDs, etc. But wow.
Onel5969 TT me 13:55, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
This may be the wrong venue to ask, but here it goes. . . . I created the article " Robert Searight" in May and it passed NPP review in July. Why doesn't the page show in a google search? For example it doesn't come up when I search for "Wikipedia Robert Searight". Thanks in advance. Bammesk ( talk) 00:59, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Incredible job – all I can say is please leave us some unreviewed pages for NPPSCHOOL exercises! CONGRATULATIONS, REVIEWERS. I will be happy to buy a round for all of you at the next in-person WikiCon!!!! Atsme 💬 📧 12:21, October 11, 2022 (UTC)
@ Mccapra, @ Onel5969, @ Barkeep49, @ MPGuy2824. The longer term chart of the backlog is up on my user page (copied below). It hit nearly zero in mid 2018. It was around ~2000 in 2021 at one point as well. Both were very brief downspikes though. Hopefully we can manage to get it down and keep it down this time. There was also some prior manual data that I had added to the first chart below if you want to see what the pre-2018 backlog looked like. — Insertcleverphrasehere( or here)( or here)( or here) 22:04, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
These two charts show all the data going back as far as we have records for. MusikAnimal didn't include the manual data (first chart) in the automated chart (second chart) when he made it since he didn't trust it (some of the early data was based on comments here and elsewhere that I scoured and collected where people where commenting on what the backlog was doing). — Insertcleverphrasehere( or here)( or here)( or here) 22:13, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Hi all — some testing has uncovered a few pages which are unable to be marked as reviewed due to a bug. These are:
On a quick review, these all seem to be pages which would be marked now as "reviewed". I'd like to propose, technical restrictions notwithstanding, that these are manually (i.e. via a database change) marked as reviewed. Seeing as NPP reviewers are the editors who would have marked such pages as reviewed, I believe it proper to ask your permission and gain your consensus to do so, instead of just "fixing it" as a technical hiccup. @
Novem Linguae: Pinging just so you're aware of this proposal. —
TheresNoTime (
talk • they/them) 11:21, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
There's a bunch of redirects that reviewers have tagged via draftify user script for speedy deletion under CSD R2 (inappropriate cross-namespace redirects) that can be found here, yet none of them are included in Category:Candidates for speedy deletion or Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as inappropriate cross-namespace redirects. A few of these were tagged for speedy deletion up to 24 hours ago (e.g. Korea TV and Terry Gudaitis). Bennv123 ( talk) 02:03, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Drafts § WP:DRAFTIFY is a bit verbose. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 13:09, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
(with apologies to Agatha Christie...
And yes, Joe Roe, I did doublecheck my filters this time. Onel5969 TT me 13:40, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
redacted — rsjaffe 🗣️ 22:48, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Great work getting the backlog removed and the queue down to zero. Now can we forget about it for a bit? It’s tempting to focus on staying close to zero when that’s not our purpose. Editors need time to improve their articles and we have 90 days to do our work in. If NPP now turns into a zapathon it will just piss a lot of people off, so let’s not be too hasty with draftifying where that’s appropriate. Mccapra ( talk) 10:47, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
I mean... some newbies want their articles reviewed quickly.You mean within a week instead of three months, or in 15 seconds instead of a zapper's 30 seconds:? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 11:51, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
Following is a list of requests for tools we need that have not been fulfilled at phab:
Atsme 💬 📧 10:33, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Draftify things, or improve-in-situ, which discusses on potential improvements when drafting articles. VickKiang (talk) 06:01, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
What is deletion by the back door?it was naturally a cynical rhetorical question. Complaints against all aspects of NPP come and go in cycles. This month's flavour is 'moving to draft'. Next month will be AfD. Around Christmas it will probably be BLPPROD. The only common denominator is that most of the anti NPP crowd are either newbies or very old inclusionists who haven't done any patrolling for yonks or never done any at all, or WMF staff masquerading as volunteers and suggesting that NPP is a superfluous process (diffs available going back to 2010). Fazit? Well, I wholly concur with @ Mccapra and Alexandermcnabb:. OTOH, Hey man im josh, it depends how draftification is done. There are several options. The one I use isn't bitey at all, but at the end ofthe day the onus is on the crreators to submit policy compliant articles. Hey, wait - isn't that the fault of the WMF for not creating a proper landing page? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 12:03, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
"Draftification" covers many scenarios, but I assuming we're talking about an article that has not established wp:notability. Draftification both provides the opportunity and responsibility for the GNG source search task to the article creator/proponent. It is different than AFD, not a "back door" to it. North8000 ( talk) 17:09, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Well the queue has just exploded because User:BilledMammal redirected a huge number of insect stubs and User:Elmidae reverted, bringing hundreds into the queue. Mccapra ( talk) 17:59, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Currently, the default filters shown to a fresh New Page Patroller are "State (Reviewed, Unreviewed), Type (Nominated for deletion, All others)". You can check this out by logging out of Wikipedia and then going to Special:NewPagesFeed. This doesn't make sense to me, and i think we should show such folk only the pages in the article and redirect backlogs i.e. things that they can work on immediately. I propose the following changes:
I've purposely separated these out, in case folk think that not all three are good to do. This will not affect any reviewer who has changed their filter options, only fresh NPPers; and even they can change these filter defaults, whenever they want. - MPGuy2824 ( talk) 08:23, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Just to double check, I'm interpreting this as being just about default filter settings.
Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 16:55, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
It comes as a huge relief that the AfD bug has now been resolved. No more switching back and forth between Page Curation and Twinkle. A big round of applause please for Novem Linguae and any other volunteers who helped him pull this rabbit out of the hat. Let's hope he will send the bill to the WMF. The whole issue was another example of the blatant refusals of the WMF to address bugs in the software they built and telling us to clear off and do it ourselves (diffs available). Fortunately thanks to our open letter things are hopefully going to change. Fingers crossed. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 04:42, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
I'd like to request a backlog chart for redirects. I understand some people don't care about reviewing redirects, but I think if a backlog chart exists it will bring attention to the fact that there is a backlog. It'll also be useful for tracking the overall level of unreviewed redirects overtime and useful if we do have a redirect backlog drive at any point. Hey man im josh ( talk) 12:49, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 40 | ← | Archive 44 | Archive 45 | Archive 46 | Archive 47 | Archive 48 | → | Archive 50 |
I am guessing I'm in the wrong place but am hoping the good graces of Wikipedia will take mercy and tell me where I need to be to ask my question. I recently posted my second article of creation. I was told that I did not need to have it approved through the draft process and could just move it to article status myself. So I did. Very quickly someone came along and gave it B status. Then I went to google it and couldn't find it only to learn that new pages have to be reviewed or wait 90 days. I didn't know that! Now I can't find it anywhere on the new pages to be reviewed list either! My creation Christianization of the Roman Empire as caused by attractive appeal is lost in an alternate universe somewhere! Is there anything I can do to bring it home? I would like to volunteer to help with this whole review process thingy, but it looks a little overwhelming for a relative newby. There's so much I don't know. Wikipedia is a morass. :-) Jenhawk777 ( talk) 21:32, 8 November 2021 (UTC)
Hi New pages patrol/Reviewers,
For those who may have missed it in our last newsletter, here's a quick reminder to see the letter we have drafted, and if you support it, do please go ahead and sign it. If you already signed, thanks. Also, if you haven't noticed, the backlog has been trending up lately; all reviews are greatly appreciated.
To opt-out of future mailings, please remove yourself here.
MediaWiki message delivery ( talk) 23:11, 20 August 2022 (UTC)
Deployed earlier today:
– Novem Linguae ( talk) 06:57, 19 August 2022 (UTC)
I'm still very new to actually reviewing pages even though I've been going through NPP school for awhile and so far I've mostly been focusing on redirects. But I've noticed that the process for unreviewing a page is not ideal. Maybe it's just because I'm new or because the green just doesn't stand out as much as it should on my screen, but I've happened to accidentally unreview a page (both redirects) twice. Obviously my mistakes are my mistakes, but I was wondering if maybe someone has pointed out that a more distinct visual difference might be useful? Like an x instead of a checkmark either way for unreviewing. Or a way to set a preference to get a prompt saying "are you certain you want to unreview this page?" Also my understanding (which may be flawed) is that things really shouldn't rely on colour for accessibility reasons. By the way, if anyone sees any issues with the limited reviews I've done so far, please let me know. I'd rather be set on the right path now than find out I've been messing things up for who knows how long later on. Clovermoss (talk) 03:46, 11 August 2022 (UTC)
WP is becoming Botipedia. See Wikipedia:Bots/Noticeboard#Dams article. Atsme 💬 📧 11:11, 30 August 2022 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Arbitration Committee/Requests for comment/Article creation at scale. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 03:18, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
There are several proposals in this workshop that would affect notability and the NPP workflow. For example, "Proposed solution 1.1 (to issue 1: Mass creations)" is "Require new articles to be supported by at least one citation to a reliable source that is not a database." The relationship between GNG and SNG is also discussed. This talk page/workshop may also be a good opportunity to inject some of your own proposals. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 03:18, 1 September 2022 (UTC)
Discussion moved to Wikipedia:Page_Curation/Suggested_improvements#Club_all_"were_created_by"_options_into_one_drop_down
Hi all. Brand new reviewer here, freshly trained by the wonderful @ Atsme. Here’s hoping she or anyone else can answer this. When I am in the new page feed, I can see in red a page was previously deleted. Where do I see the new page? I am kinda feeling a little stuck. This page is not suitable for Wikipedia at present. Can I really draftify it without a discussion? I also want to know how I can compare it against the previous article, and also want to know how it was deleted? I know I can only CSD an article that was deleted after consensus to delete was reached, AND it needs to be substantially similar. Can’t figure out how to actually check those two criteria though?
One page I just CSDd did actually have the AFD discussion in the talk page. I checked that and there was consensus to delete. Given the new article was a one sentence stub I CSD tagged it. Also, beginners opinion here, but I’m unsurprised at the backlog. Looking at it, very few articles stand out as ones I can quickly review. Is there a reason we allow editors with so few contributions to be autoconfirmed and create articles? I feel like articles for creation works better? I feel sort of stuck at NPP - I either have to mark the article as OK, or it gets tagged or deleted. Whereas AFC I feel like the junk can quickly be declined, then the writer has a chance to resubmit? Any tips for a newbie? I also can’t figure a way to sort out the new pages feed into categories like one can at AFC? Thanks so much everyone and happy to be part of the team! MaxnaCarta ( talk) 10:21, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
I am doing what I can to help. I appreciate all of you and the work you do. i know the last thing you want is to read a long story. But I thought if anything, this may be something more editors can learn from.
During NPP I found Ohana (surname) dab page - it was just a list, and I checked to see if there was a page. I found Ohana (disambiguation) page - and there was ample room in the d page to move the surnames and redirect. The page creator began reverting the redirect, and the merge. The page creator erased every message I put on their talk page. I decided to send the redirected page to AfD so they would stop reverting the redirect.
The page creator
started an RFC on the dab/surname topic. At the RFC an admin (BD2412) told them they should if possible include references providing information about surname origins and usage.
. The dab creator then added a reference. Next BD2412 came to the AfD to tell me I should be trouted and blocked because there can't be references in a dab page. So I then erased the reference from the dab pages and came back to announce it in the AfD. I then went to
BD2412's talk page, to ask about the comments in AfD. They did not answer, but instead came to the AfD to threaten taking me to ANI for erasing references. Me I am following what they said, there can't be references in a dab page... I commented that they should have discussed with me on their talk page. Next they went to their talk page and said I was
trolling and they mentioned blocking me.
What started all of this? I saw two short list/landing pages named Ohana and thought they should be combined. I really thought I was improving the project. I plan to take a break after this experience but I bring this here. Have a great weekend everyone! Bruxton ( talk) 00:35, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
I don't want to interfere in this but as a general comment do be aware that dab pages and surname pages are quite different and have different requirements in respect of references, formatting etc: it's common practice for a surname page to be broken out of a dab page. Ingratis ( talk) 07:14, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Sorry that you had to go though all this. It shouldn't have escalated as quickly as it did. We all have bad days and can overreact to things and this time it seems you just got caught up in it. I hope you stick around and don't let a one off like this discourage your important work. Dr vulpes ( 💬 • 📝) 23:11, 2 September 2022 (UTC)
Discontinued editing due to persistent harassment. Good bye.Please see WP:BITE and WP:NPPNICE. Andrew🐉( talk) 09:34, 5 September 2022 (UTC)
Happy editing! I approved your dab page. Second post to them
do not revert the redirect - it duplicates a disambig which exists and is not too long. Please read WP:DABNAME Specifically,They erased the posts, including one from another user. In any event I have given myself a timeout from editing. It is good to take a step back - and in doing so one can reflect and move forward with a better approach. Bruxton ( talk) 16:32, 5 September 2022 (UTC)A list of name-holders can be included in a People section of the page. The page exists for that purpose.If you have further questions you can ask at WP:NPP. Thanks and keep up the good work!
One of the reasons reviewers get frustrated is when they encounter push-back after an action. There are examples of this above. Some of this can be avoided if we rely more on consensus-based discussions rather than unilateral actions. One scenario that comes to mind is Merge/Redirect.
The tutorial says If you come upon an article on a duplicate topic… [that] has content that warrants merging, perform a merge.
The flowchart says the essentially the same. They both link to
WP:MERGE, which says If the need for a merge is obvious, editors can be bold and simply do it
It goes on to say otherwise, start a merge discussion. The NPP tutorial does not directly mention starting merge discussions.
Occasionally, there will be a new article on “Joe actor” that should be merged into the existing article “Joseph actor”. But it is much more common that we will have a new article on a topic may not be notable but could be covered in another article. Obviously, the creator of the article would disagree. If you follow VP discussions on stubs/short articles/combining into broader articles/etc., you are aware that this is a contentious subject. Most potential merges we find at NPP probably should be discussed.
I think the tutorial should be updated to reflect this and give further guidance, such as:
MB 20:14, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
Doing a merge can be a lot of work, indeed it can and hence why it is not within the expected tasks of new page reviewers and anything in the tutorial that suggest it is should be removed, even if aeons ago I wrote it myself. There's nothing to stop an editor doing anything that improves the encyclopedia, but IMO the general best approach here would be AfD with 'Delete or Merge' as the rationale, and let someone else do the merging if that is the outcome. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 00:19, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
is not within the expected tasks of new page reviewers, but I don't agree you should AFD an article unless you really think it should be deleted. The first section of WP:BEFORE links to WP:ATD which says
If editing can improve the page, this should be done rather than deleting the pageand then discusses Merging. I think proposing merges would be best practice; it accomplishes the same thing and still
lets someone else do the merging if that is the outcome. There are just some NPP housekeeping details to address, which are what I was proposing. MB 00:51, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
Back in July, it seemed like extending NOINDEX on unreviewed articles was imminent. I proposed a maint message on unreviewed pages that would explain why the article was not visible in search engines and what could be done to improve the article and increase its chances of being reviewed and indexed. NOINDEX has been delayed, so this has been on the back-burner. We do expect NOINDEX to still happen, hopefully soon.
The original proposal was this:
This article has not yet been reviewed. While it has been added to Wikipedia, it will not be visible to external
search engines until it is reviewed to ensure it complies with
core policies. Articles must be about a
notable subject, be
verifiable and not have
copyright violations or be
promotional. |
Doing something like this had wide conceptual support, but there was concern that such a message was just too obtrusive to be put on every new article until it was reviewed. The message used at the German Wikipedia was suggested as an alternative. That is just a small box in the upper right corner of an article that says (which means Not Seen (reviewed)). That is from the Flagged revisions feature of Mediawiki which they use. If you want to see that on an actual article, go here. I don't think pursuing anything requiring software changes is likely to happen quickly given that we don't even get bugs fixed. As an alternative, something that we can probably implement without the WMF would be a more simple and unobtrusive message like:
Option 3
This article is unreviewed. ( Learn more)
The "Learn more" would be a link to a help page with all the info from the first banner. You can see how this would look on a actual article here. Should we pursue the last example? MB 02:05, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Option 4
This article has not been reviewed and may not be visible to external
search engines. (
Learn more) |
— Ingenuity ( talk • contribs) 14:33, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
Here is a smaller version:
Option 5
This article is unreviewed. ( Learn more) |
- MB 16:49, 10 September 2022 (UTC)
How bold can we be with retargeting redirects when reviewing and can we review the redirect if we've retargeted it? This is my biggest issue I run into when the redirects aren't an easy approve.
Example: Annal Gandhi - I was going to bring this to RfD and then realized I might just be stuck in my own head. It's not related to target article ( Mahatma Ghandhi) according to Google main/news/scholar searches in English, though I'm not sure if there's a Tamil relevancy I'm missing. However, it is the name of a government hospital in Tiruchirappalli. Would it be fine to retarget to Tiruchirappalli, add the info about the hospital, and mark it as reviewed, or is there a better course of action?
Thanks! originalmess talk 09:09, 11 September 2022 (UTC)
I have a question regarding sending an article to draft. What should a reviewer do when they send an article to draft but the article's creator ignores the draft and recreates the article in main space a week later? It has happened a few times so far. In the latest instance I have sent the recreated article to AfD. But is that the right course? Thanks. Bruxton ( talk) 15:32, 8 September 2022 (UTC)
This page was proposed for deletion by Bruxton ( talk · contribs) on 6 September 2022. |
I've been thinking about how the autopatrolled user right seems to be a persistent source of controversy. Perhaps it would be better if the autopatrolled user right could not be applied for by users at all, and instead would be granted based on the suggestion of new page patrollers? Since the right doesn't actually allow a user to do anything they couldn't previously, and instead serves to remove noncontroversial articles from the NPP queue, it would make sense that the right is only granted if NPPers suggest it. Not ready to start an RfC yet or anything, but curious if anyone has thoughts about this. Elli ( talk | contribs) 20:42, 13 September 2022 (UTC)
Please note there is a discussion at WP:ANI that relates to NPP: WP:Administrators noticeboard/Incidents#Complaint about New Page reviewer draftifying work while I'm still working on it. Polyamorph ( talk) 18:04, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
I have been thinking about how to make draftification more acceptable. I wasn't ready to propose this yet, but it's directly related to the prior section on editors not seeing messages on their Talk Pages about their articles being moved to draft.
A major objection to draftification is that Drafts are too "hidden" and unlikely to be improved; the best way to improve an article is for it to be in mainspace where people will find it.
Currently, you do get this message if you try to create an article when there is a draft:
There is a draft of this article at Draft:Example.
What if we make a major change and just leave an "article" in mainspace containing:
Wikipedia does not have an article by this name. A draft exists at Draft:Example but it has not been approved for inclusion into the encyclopedia. It may not have sufficient references or its quality is not ready for publication. Click the notice at the top of the draft or its talk page for more information and if you can, please consider improving it. |
This means the title would show up in the search box, and could be linked from other articles. That would be a major departure from the current process of Draftification which completely deletes the article from mainspace, and would require a project level RFC. Since the article is not in mainspace, but the title is - it is as likely to be improved in Draft space as it would be if it had stayed in main space. There are other things to work out, like this would prevent someone moving the draft back directly per WP:DRAFTOBJECT, they would have to make a technical move request (which I think would be a good thing). I guess the first thing is to get a feeling whether we think this would be worthwhile, and do we think there is a chance of getting it approved at the project level? MB 15:38, 15 September 2022 (UTC)
{{
promising draft}}
which gives extra consideration before auto deletion. Doing that would may make Draftification more acceptable to to those that are against it today. AFC reviewers currently have to deal with a redirect in the way and can request at G6 deletion of the redirect, so they wouldn't need to be page movers.
MB 17:22, 15 September 2022 (UTC)Don't forget that there are lots of articles in draft space that shouldn't be articles. This seems to presume "should be an article but needs work". Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 19:51, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
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( t · c) buidhe 21:17, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Your input would be appreciated as it is likely to affect how NPP reviews these types of articles. Also, see Wikipedia:WikiProject_Albums/Sources. Atsme 💬 📧 01:48, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Boyu Jin, a Boston College student wasn't able to get their draft reviewed in an unlucky way on the 3 May they were denied for the existence of a copy of the draft and on the 18 may the draft was denied because an article with the same title already exists in main space. Following a merge discussion ensued. The articles in Draft and in Mainspace were created by the same editor and maybe we could think of something to smooth out the collaborations between the wikipedia community and editors from educational institutions. If (hidden) categories for such drafts and articles would be created potentially supportive editors of a certain eduction wikipedia collaboration could take care of such drafts and articles. The articles I have seen from of the Boston college project were rather well elaborated and if such and other editors from other educational institutions were welcomed a bit more it might encourage them to join not only the particular project but then also become a regular wikipedia editor. Paradise Chronicle ( talk) 05:31, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
I am of the mind that advanced NPP reviewers should be given more tools to work with as content oriented reviewers, and that those who have graduated from NPPSCHOOL and/or have otherwise demonstrated their qualifications as quality reviewers should be given those unbundled tools as part of their NPP user rights.
Reason:
When a qualified reviewer decides to nom an article for CSD or PROD, it is because they did the research, and what happens next? They have to tag and wait for an overworked admin to show up and follow-thru. Unfortunately, it often ends in rejection when nomming for CSD & PROD, and then it ends up at AfD where even more valuable time is wasted, not to mention potential drama. Keep in mind that the admins who reject CSDs and PRODs do not review articles at the same level that NPP does – they don't do any BEFORE. Instead, they make their decisions based only on the as-is content. Why is that decision more reliable than that of an NPP reviewer, whose work is most affected by it? It is my understanding that admins are supposed to focus on behavior, not content. Content is NPP's job, but what we are faced with daily can create frustration and burn out because the work we do is not taken seriously, and we catch a lot of slack over it. A quick example of frustration: a 60 edit article creator did not like their unsourced stub being redirected, so they revert the redirect. The article goes back in the NPP queue, and another reviewer shows up, redirects, and the cycle begins again. Next reviewer draftifies, but the article ends up in main space again – Ad infinitum. Ad absurdum. Why not give the reviewer the ability to protect the redirect? I fail to see how an admin's decision is any more reliable than that of a qualified, experienced NPP reviewer who did WP:BEFORE and/or triage before they came to their conclusion. So here is my suggestion:
Unbundle a few admin tools so NPP reviewers can handle their own CSD, PRODs, protect redirects, and close AfDs they are not involved in. That would take a load of tedious work off our admins while at the same time eliminate all the frustration that NPP reviewers deal with daily. It is easy enough to check a reviewer's Curation & AfD log for balance and good judgment. Why all the bureaucracy? I see far more pros than cons to unbundling a few tools. Atsme 💬 📧 19:30, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
To confirm, by "handle their own CSD, PRODs", you mean be able to delete those pages? And by "close AfDs" you also mean delete those pages? As non-admins can already close AfDs as keep as per WP:NAC. Also, is this proposal to create a new permission set I take it, not give to all NPPers? How much of an issue are the redirects? I'd be very cautious with non-admins having the power to delete articles personally. - Kj cheetham ( talk) 20:01, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
This seems to imply there are regular NPP reviewers and those that are "quality reviewers". That is a flawed premise, we expect all reviews to be of quality. I think this is a non-starter on that basis alone. MB 20:24, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
This seems to be the perennial proposal to unbundle certain admin tools, which has historically been a non-starter for a variety of reasons. Sam Walton ( talk) 20:33, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
The answer to the specific scenario posed above is to eliminate the ability to reject draftification. That’s the basic problem. If draftified by NPP, the article should have to go through AFC.— rsjaffe 🗣️ 20:55, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
CSD and page protections deserve a level of independent review before they are acted on, even if the editor in question is highly experienced. Rejected CSDs and PRODs, more often than not, are a sign that these pages should not have been tagged as such, categorically not a pretext for editors to get a license to kill articles. CSD and RfPP don't have significant backlogs, so this proposal doesn't solve any existing problem. Moreover, for the reasons other editors have already pointed out, if this solution goes searching for problems it is bound to run into many of them. signed, Rosguill talk 21:39, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
Agree with Rosguill, a second pair of eyes is necessary before an article is deleted. That aside, the chances of permissions to allow non-admins to delete articles being agreed to is virtually non-existent. -- John B123 ( talk) 22:35, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
The proposal is made in good faith and at least people are beginning to think outside the box for solutions to NPP, but this isn't it. Further unbundling of admin tools will always meet with resistance and there have been abuse of rights from NPR rights holders, and other reverts of patrollers' actions are not uncommon. . Even if it were to get consensus, anything like this that needs a tweak at Phabricator would be rejected by the salaried WMF devs who make up their own policies as it suits them. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 23:15, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
To elaborate a bit on my oppose, I believe that granting these rights would risk losing important editorial oversight, as even "obvious" cases could be reasonably challenged by some. I've seen enough threads here recently, as well as trends while reviewing the new pages feed, to believe that several problematic scenarios could arise with this set of expanded NPP rights (at least, assuming the bar for NPP is unchanged): for instance, a borderline A7/G11 gets deleted without the admin's second set of eyes (I have encountered a few that I may have draftified instead), or hasty (i.e., in much less than an hour – while an article is still underconstruction – a move already not advised per WP:DRAFTIFY) draftification occurs and a good-faith creator is met with protection. Similarly, while NPP carries a certain level of trust, closing discussions is not within the primary workflow of NPP, and a dubious patrol (it happens to the best of us) is much more easily addressed/contested than a dubious deletion. I agree with Rosguill that a second set of eyes is beneficial. However, I also will acknowledge the frustration that comes with the job; in my opinion, WP:DRAFTIFY needs an overhaul, more so than NPP user rights. Complex/ Rational 01:58, 24 September 2022 (UTC)
Hello, all!
I originally asked for feedback at
the NPP Coordinators noticeboard but was encouraged to seek everyone's thoughts here . I have drafted a proposal to add the suppressredirect
to the NPP toolkit, so we can draftify articles without needing to tag a redirect for deletion. My proposed RfC can be found
in my sandbox. I am open to any and all feedback, but would love some thoughts specifically about how likely you would be to support such a proposal. Thank you! ~
Matthewrb
Talk to me ·
Changes I've made 23:58, 22 September 2022 (UTC)
suppressredirect
is quite a powerful user right since it lets you conduct
round-robin page swaps, which can be used to move pages to almost any title without much oversight. That means that in practice, this proposal could have the unintentional effect of giving new page patrollers the ability to (for instance) close most
requested move discussions or carry out requests at
WP:RM/TR, both things that are generally reserved for folks with
"participation in requested moves and move reviews, or experience closing move requests". I'm not sure I'm quite convinced that the benefits of this proposal would outweigh the harms: it would slightly reduce the workload for the sysops who have to delete the redirects, but that's a pretty minor benefit, isn't it?
Extraordinary Writ (
talk) 00:27, 23 September 2022 (UTC)
The Board of Trustees election has started. Votes will be accepted until 23:59 on 6 September (UTC). View candidate statement videos, and Vote NOW. |
I noticed that a new page patroller had recently created an unsourced BLP and was warned by another editor for it. Clearly if someone believes that creating unsourced BLP is acceptable, they are not suitable to be a patroller. ( t · c) buidhe 01:07, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
In extreme cases you may need to inform an administrator, an NPP coordinator, or post at WP:ANI, but always try to help your colleague first.Is this still our preferred advice? We can always tweak this if necessary. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 01:59, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
In extreme cases you may need to inform an administrator or post at WP:AARV, but always try to help your colleague first. MB 02:14, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
XRV is not the right place for this, it is for incorrect admin actions, not for actions that might well have been perfectly alright at the time but where now some right needs to be revoked for standard editing reasons. I recently tried to solve a similar case by talking to the admin that gave the right in the first place, but they were extremely dismissive, so that's not always a good solution either. WP:ANI is currently the best solution (if issues persist after talking to the editor involved of course). Fram ( talk) 07:35, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
Hi folks. Shamefully popping in here to see if anyone can help me troubleshoot why I can't see any pages in my NPP feed? I get the red-text warning 'No pages match your criteria' but I hadn't knowingly set any search criteria yet. Using it on a Chrome browser. Any obvious reasons spring to mind? Cache issues maybe? Zakhx150 ( talk) 12:01, 26 September 2022 (UTC)
There are some interesting discussions taking place which may have an effect on NPPers. I've been attempting to help to get the backlog back to reasonableness, and in reviewing certain articles, I've come across large blocks of uncited text. It has been my process if the article might be notable, or in some cases is definitely notable, to draftify those articles. I am not saying these articles need several sources, but are clearly notable (that's a different case, where I'll mark them reviewed and then add the more ref tag at the top -- then go back in a month or so to see if improvements have been made). These articles simply have large blocks of text, usually the bulk of the article, which are simply unsourced. I've felt it was less disruptive to move them to draft, than simply gutting the article. If the draftifying is objected to, at that point I'll remove the large blocks of texts, since I feel that WP:VERIFY is one of the most important policies on WP -- helping us ensure the quality of the project, as well as adding to our credibility. We had an issue similar to this last year or the year before, where an editor was making Canadian river articles, and adding large blocks of texts describing the course of the river, it's tributaries, etc. Without adding sources, or simply adding a link to database, which did not back up the information they were including. And I believe that also escalated to ANI, before it was resolved that WP:VERIFY is a pretty important concept.
But back to the discussions taking place. The first is User talk:Onel5969#Citing the route section on road articles, there is a link in that to the second discussion on the Roads project, Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Highways#Citing The "Route Section" on Road Articles. And finally, there's this brief discussion, as well as this where there's an admin threatening to block me for following policy. Now, looking at this, I bring it up, since I am most likely going to get attacked for following policy, but honestly, I do not know how to review without using policy as the bedrock for reviews. Regardless, I intend to continue reviewing until we get this backlog manageable, but I refuse to ignore policy. I know other reviewers have differing views (since one of the folks disagreeing with my is an NPPer, although not very active). Perhaps someone here could point out to me if I indeed am missing the point. Sorry to blather on. Onel5969 TT me 11:04, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
Quite frankly, your actions were a net negative as they removed content and alienated an editor in an underrepresented topic (South Africa).-
If this is such a big deal, then why didn't you go ahead and add the citations yourself?- my aunt Fanny. Why are we getting these statements from an administrator who a) should be aware that enforcing a fundamental policy is more important than following an essay, and b) that obliging new page patrollers to "just go and find the sources yourself" is a recipe for getting NPP productivity and participation down to zero? We do triage, that means excision and/or draftifying to prevent unsourced stuff in mainspace. - Having said that, if you are heading into conflict you want to keep your ducks in a row; talk page use, formal warnings, and punting things upstairs when 3RR is looming. It's no good getting strung up on the strength of incidentals when you are right in principle. -- Elmidae ( talk · contribs) 14:18, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
it says on my userpage this user recognizes the importance of citing sources. This is true - I just need a little bit of help/guidance for which references to use for what etc.– much more strongly suggestive of confusion. In any case, the burden on NPP is not to add sources, merely determine whether they have a strong likelihood of existing (pass or fail). Onel5969, given how the ANI blew up (even if you're not concerned about the outcome), I might suggest reviewing other articles in the meantime to not give an impression of singling out one editor's work (this is not a feeling only newcomers experience). I second Elmidae's wisdom above as well – NPP is overburdened enough with thankless work as things stand and upholding WP:V is a critical aspect of that work. Complex/ Rational 20:28, 27 September 2022 (UTC)
We've discussed the exponential growth in the expansion of the Internet in some regions and the availability of low-cost smart phones there - well noted that we got some flak from two users who boldly accused us of "xenophobia and racism" for mentioning it in the first draft of the Open Letter - but this excellent article in August by Akhil George in The Times of India, one of the country's most respected newspapers, makes no bones about it: "India recently became the second largest contributor to the English Wikipedia after the US".
If that doesn't confirm the need for reviewers who can read sources in Indic languages and who understand MOS:COMMONALITY, I don't know what does. Any campaigns to recruit new reviewers should bear this in mind, but we want to avoid another Wifione (former admin) which is another reason why reviewers should always be on their mettle and not patrol too quickly - and why admins should be sure to do in-depth due diligence before according the reviewer right. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 21:48, 30 September 2022 (UTC)
Based on the number from yesterday, we should be able to clear the backlog this month at this rate, amazingly! (Of course that rate isn't sustainable though as people will burn-out.) - Kj cheetham ( talk) 10:50, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
The Signpost September issue was published a few minutes ago. This month's 'In focus' column is dedicated to NPP and also includes a reprint of the Open Letter appeal that was signed by a total of 444 editors. As yet there has been no official response on the page for replies to the letter which was published earlier this month on Meta and Wikipedia, and personally notified to around 80 members of the senior WMF staff and Board of Trustees. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 01:44, 1 October 2022 (UTC)
The article about NPP had the highest number of visits on the first day of publication. It didn't generate a lot of comments but nor did any other articles. User comments were supportive. The WMF left a long speech instead of replying to the letter in the right place. They had clearly not read their emails and had confused the Open Letter action with an article about it in a newspaper. The Board of Trustees has not made any public acknowledgment to either the letter or the Signpost article. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 11:51, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
Nominating new articles for AFD, CSD, and others using Page curation does not keep a log. Is there a way to activate it or is it only Twinkle that logs these nominations? Comr Melody Idoghor (talk) 08:14, 2 October 2022 (UTC)
I am so proud of all of you.... the backlog between 1/1/2020 and 4/30/2022 is .... 0. (There's one article there, but it's prodded). Great job folks. As the bard said, "I am amazed and know not what to do." Onel5969 TT me 14:26, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
I'm not sure where this is best raised, so feel free to point me elsewhere, but I wanted to get some eyes on an issue with Page Curation, which describes User:Juandissimo1 as a possible attack page for reasons that aren't obvious (and blatantly faulty). — Compassionate727 ( T· C) 20:51, 6 October 2022 (UTC)
Those of you that often get the "I tagged for AFD with Page Curation toolbar and it did everything except make the AFD page" bug, please run the software through its paces and see if you can reproduce it. Pretty good chance it's fixed this time. In the event of great success, all credit goes to Chlod. In the event of great failure, we will all run and hide, making it hard for you to lodge your complaints! :) – Novem Linguae ( talk) 01:05, 7 October 2022 (UTC)
Why there's no edit summary on this edit? ─ The Aafī on Mobile (talk) 19:51, 8 October 2022 (UTC)
There is an RfC in progress at Wikipedia:Arbitration Committee/Requests for comment/Article creation at scale about how the community should approach mass creations of articles. Valereee ( talk) 15:04, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
Hello New pages patrol/Reviewers,
Much has happened since the last newsletter over two months ago. The open letter finished with 444 signatures. The letter was sent to several dozen people at the WMF, and we have heard that it is being discussed but there has been no official reply. A related article appears in the current issue of The Signpost. If you haven't seen it, you should, including the readers' comment section.
Awards: Barnstars were given for the past several years (thanks to MPGuy2824), and we are now all caught up. The 2021 cup went to John B123 for leading with 26,525 article reviews during 2021. To encourage moderate activity, a new "Iron" level barnstar is awarded annually for reviewing 360 articles ("one-a-day"), and 100 reviews earns the "Standard" NPP barnstar. About 90 reviewers received barnstars for each of the years 2018 to 2021 (including the new awards that were given retroactively). All awards issued for every year are listed on the Awards page. Check out the new Hall of Fame also.
Software news: Novem Linguae and MPGuy2824 have connected with WMF developers who can review and approve patches, so they have been able to fix some bugs, and make other improvements to the Page Curation software. You can see everything that has been fixed recently here. The reviewer report has also been improved.
Suggestions:
Backlog:
Saving the best for last: From a July low of 8,500, the backlog climbed back to 11,000 in August and then reversed in September dropping to below 6,000 and continued falling with the October backlog drive to under 1,000, a level not seen in over four years. Keep in mind that there are 2,000 new articles every week, so the number of reviews is far higher than the backlog reduction. To keep the backlog under a thousand, we have to keep reviewing at about half the recent rate!
an article should not be tagged for any kind of deletion for a minimum of 15 minutes after creation- I realized I've not been in compliance with this when it comes to G4, my thinking being that if a past discussion has decided the topic is not notable nothing can be done about it and waiting gives false hope. * Pppery * it has begun... 03:00, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
Tagging anything other than attack pages, copyvios, vandalism or complete nonsense only a few minutes after creation may stop the creation of a good faith article and drive away a new contributor. Outside these exceptions, an article should not be tagged for any kind of deletion for a minimum of 15 minutes after creation and it is often appropriate to wait an hour or more.VickKiang (talk) 03:20, 17 October 2022 (UTC)
I've been doing this for a little while now, and I group articles into categories: 1 - new articles - day or two old; 2 - front of the queue - up to 30 days old; Prime reviewing - 31-90 days old; old articles - over 90 days, up to a year old; and very old articles. In my time here, I've never seen the Very old backlog at zero before. Not only did we accomplish that, the backlog of what I would consider Old articles also hit zero for the first time I can remember. Now, of course, I'm not including articles that are in the process of prods/AfDs, etc. But wow.
Onel5969 TT me 13:55, 13 October 2022 (UTC)
This may be the wrong venue to ask, but here it goes. . . . I created the article " Robert Searight" in May and it passed NPP review in July. Why doesn't the page show in a google search? For example it doesn't come up when I search for "Wikipedia Robert Searight". Thanks in advance. Bammesk ( talk) 00:59, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
Incredible job – all I can say is please leave us some unreviewed pages for NPPSCHOOL exercises! CONGRATULATIONS, REVIEWERS. I will be happy to buy a round for all of you at the next in-person WikiCon!!!! Atsme 💬 📧 12:21, October 11, 2022 (UTC)
@ Mccapra, @ Onel5969, @ Barkeep49, @ MPGuy2824. The longer term chart of the backlog is up on my user page (copied below). It hit nearly zero in mid 2018. It was around ~2000 in 2021 at one point as well. Both were very brief downspikes though. Hopefully we can manage to get it down and keep it down this time. There was also some prior manual data that I had added to the first chart below if you want to see what the pre-2018 backlog looked like. — Insertcleverphrasehere( or here)( or here)( or here) 22:04, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
These two charts show all the data going back as far as we have records for. MusikAnimal didn't include the manual data (first chart) in the automated chart (second chart) when he made it since he didn't trust it (some of the early data was based on comments here and elsewhere that I scoured and collected where people where commenting on what the backlog was doing). — Insertcleverphrasehere( or here)( or here)( or here) 22:13, 12 October 2022 (UTC)
Hi all — some testing has uncovered a few pages which are unable to be marked as reviewed due to a bug. These are:
On a quick review, these all seem to be pages which would be marked now as "reviewed". I'd like to propose, technical restrictions notwithstanding, that these are manually (i.e. via a database change) marked as reviewed. Seeing as NPP reviewers are the editors who would have marked such pages as reviewed, I believe it proper to ask your permission and gain your consensus to do so, instead of just "fixing it" as a technical hiccup. @
Novem Linguae: Pinging just so you're aware of this proposal. —
TheresNoTime (
talk • they/them) 11:21, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
There's a bunch of redirects that reviewers have tagged via draftify user script for speedy deletion under CSD R2 (inappropriate cross-namespace redirects) that can be found here, yet none of them are included in Category:Candidates for speedy deletion or Category:Candidates for speedy deletion as inappropriate cross-namespace redirects. A few of these were tagged for speedy deletion up to 24 hours ago (e.g. Korea TV and Terry Gudaitis). Bennv123 ( talk) 02:03, 14 October 2022 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia talk:Drafts § WP:DRAFTIFY is a bit verbose. – Novem Linguae ( talk) 13:09, 21 October 2022 (UTC)
(with apologies to Agatha Christie...
And yes, Joe Roe, I did doublecheck my filters this time. Onel5969 TT me 13:40, 20 October 2022 (UTC)
redacted — rsjaffe 🗣️ 22:48, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Great work getting the backlog removed and the queue down to zero. Now can we forget about it for a bit? It’s tempting to focus on staying close to zero when that’s not our purpose. Editors need time to improve their articles and we have 90 days to do our work in. If NPP now turns into a zapathon it will just piss a lot of people off, so let’s not be too hasty with draftifying where that’s appropriate. Mccapra ( talk) 10:47, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
I mean... some newbies want their articles reviewed quickly.You mean within a week instead of three months, or in 15 seconds instead of a zapper's 30 seconds:? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 11:51, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
Graphs are unavailable due to technical issues. There is more info on Phabricator and on MediaWiki.org. |
Following is a list of requests for tools we need that have not been fulfilled at phab:
Atsme 💬 📧 10:33, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Draftify things, or improve-in-situ, which discusses on potential improvements when drafting articles. VickKiang (talk) 06:01, 25 October 2022 (UTC)
What is deletion by the back door?it was naturally a cynical rhetorical question. Complaints against all aspects of NPP come and go in cycles. This month's flavour is 'moving to draft'. Next month will be AfD. Around Christmas it will probably be BLPPROD. The only common denominator is that most of the anti NPP crowd are either newbies or very old inclusionists who haven't done any patrolling for yonks or never done any at all, or WMF staff masquerading as volunteers and suggesting that NPP is a superfluous process (diffs available going back to 2010). Fazit? Well, I wholly concur with @ Mccapra and Alexandermcnabb:. OTOH, Hey man im josh, it depends how draftification is done. There are several options. The one I use isn't bitey at all, but at the end ofthe day the onus is on the crreators to submit policy compliant articles. Hey, wait - isn't that the fault of the WMF for not creating a proper landing page? Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 12:03, 26 October 2022 (UTC)
"Draftification" covers many scenarios, but I assuming we're talking about an article that has not established wp:notability. Draftification both provides the opportunity and responsibility for the GNG source search task to the article creator/proponent. It is different than AFD, not a "back door" to it. North8000 ( talk) 17:09, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Well the queue has just exploded because User:BilledMammal redirected a huge number of insect stubs and User:Elmidae reverted, bringing hundreds into the queue. Mccapra ( talk) 17:59, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Currently, the default filters shown to a fresh New Page Patroller are "State (Reviewed, Unreviewed), Type (Nominated for deletion, All others)". You can check this out by logging out of Wikipedia and then going to Special:NewPagesFeed. This doesn't make sense to me, and i think we should show such folk only the pages in the article and redirect backlogs i.e. things that they can work on immediately. I propose the following changes:
I've purposely separated these out, in case folk think that not all three are good to do. This will not affect any reviewer who has changed their filter options, only fresh NPPers; and even they can change these filter defaults, whenever they want. - MPGuy2824 ( talk) 08:23, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
Just to double check, I'm interpreting this as being just about default filter settings.
Sincerely, North8000 ( talk) 16:55, 28 October 2022 (UTC)
It comes as a huge relief that the AfD bug has now been resolved. No more switching back and forth between Page Curation and Twinkle. A big round of applause please for Novem Linguae and any other volunteers who helped him pull this rabbit out of the hat. Let's hope he will send the bill to the WMF. The whole issue was another example of the blatant refusals of the WMF to address bugs in the software they built and telling us to clear off and do it ourselves (diffs available). Fortunately thanks to our open letter things are hopefully going to change. Fingers crossed. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง ( talk) 04:42, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
I'd like to request a backlog chart for redirects. I understand some people don't care about reviewing redirects, but I think if a backlog chart exists it will bring attention to the fact that there is a backlog. It'll also be useful for tracking the overall level of unreviewed redirects overtime and useful if we do have a redirect backlog drive at any point. Hey man im josh ( talk) 12:49, 31 October 2022 (UTC)