This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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There is a new discussion of the naming convention of TV shows at the disambiguation talk page. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 16:42, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
A new draft poll is available for comment and revision. The poll will begin on January 24 and end February 15, 2006. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 21:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television)/poll has begun and is ready for votes. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 05:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Despite the closure of the previous poll, this is still remains a proposed naming convention. Please do not begin renaming shows until this convention arrives at some sort of consensus. Many articles have remained at their title for years without dispute, please do not start changing them until discussions are complete. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 21:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I still think that there are some unresolved issues in the naming convention that need to be dealt with. Issues which I have suggested in a follow up poll. As such, I do not think that this proposed policy is ready to be a guideline.
Unresolved issues
While I do not own this article, I have put significant effort into making sure that the first poll has run smoothly, a process which I think has been usurped by an editor who has made controversial edits on this topic in the past. Because of this controversial past, I have put an emphasis on process to make sure that this issue is satisfactorily resolved without dispute, something at which it appears I have failed.
If you feel that these issues need further discussion, please leave suggestion and comments here. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 22:28, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
The decision was split, but several people in the poll indicated willingness to side with "TV" just to get consensus and consistency. -- Netoholic @ 22:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Emotions aside, this is a difficult case. Voter overwhelmingly rejected a heterogenous solution (use either TV or Television, depending on what one feels like), but were split right down the middle on which it should be. At the end, one person changed his vote in order to get a consensus, giving "TV" a slight edge, and RR voiced a willingness to do so as well. I voted "television", but I would also be willing to switch for consensus sake. In addition, if a re-vote were held, my gut feeling is that some people would switch from "television" to "TV" simply because it was decided to use "television/TV program/series", and some people would think "television" looks better on its own, but "TV program" looks better as a grouping.
For these reasons, I think we should use "TV" as the standard, and only hold a re-vote if several people think it's important enough to do so. – Quadell ( talk) ( bounties) 15:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
"TV movie" is the more frequent usage by far. -- Netoholic @ 22:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Some movies (though rarely) are shown first on TV and then in the theatre. Often when I rent a DVD, I don't care where it was shown. I think a TV movie should simply be disambiguated with (film), just as a direct-to-video movie would be. If there's a TV movie and a theatre movie with the same title, I'd use the year to disambiguate. I don't see Title (TV film) or Title (TV movie) as necessary disambiguators at all. – Quadell ( talk) ( bounties) 15:58, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
The reasoning behind leaving this as "TV movie" is based on several sources which make an explicit delineation between films and television movies. Until someone cites reliable sources which treat them the same, it is not appropriate for Wikipedia to counter this common usage. -- Netoholic @ 19:04, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
The MPAA, as well as other film rating systems, treat TV movies as films. Do a search for "Truman", "Duel" at [5]. The Sopranos do not get a rating at the MPAA. In some cases, TV and movie ratings are clumped together (certificates), but content shown on TV and released on DVD are treated differently, compare [6] and [7], and [8] and [9]. Amazon also doesn't specify a difference between television movies [10] putting it into the "DVD" category. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 21:33, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
The connotation of "show" implies anything broadcast (repeating series, movies, etc), whereas "program" is more clearly a one-time production or event. -- Netoholic @ 22:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps as a comprimise for new shows, sketch shows, magazine style shows and educational shows would use (TV show) since they are not a series. This would simplify the naming and use an commonly used disambiguator -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 15:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
After reading all these complications, I am more and more convinced that (TV show) would be the best disambiguator. Unfortunately, the community voted overwhelmingly to use TV program[me] and TV series as well as show. So I guess we need to nail down when to use program, series, or show.
It would seem to me that "TV program" should be used only for shows that are clearly programs, and "TV series" should be used only for shows that are clearly series, and "TV show" should be used for shows that are not clearly series or programs. Any way we do it, we'll have to do lots of rds. – Quadell ( talk) ( bounties) 16:06, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Cartoon, TV series and animated series are common disambiguators. I think these should use "TV series" by default and animated series only when disambiguating from other shows. Cartoon should be depricated. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 04:46, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
i dont like animated series as the alternative, its a little ambiguous not to mention the actual page is animated television series. why not animated TV series it seems more consistent. Discordance 23:09, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
TV + "game show" feels extremely redundant, and the way things have srpung naturally, "game show" alone has been preferred. -- Netoholic @ 22:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I would use (game show), and only use (TV game show) if the article is specifically about the TV version and not the radio version. – Quadell ( talk) ( bounties) 16:12, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
If we are going to be putting (TV series) after the title of every tv programme on wikipedia id rather see (TV game show) used. Discordance 23:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
While some of the articles at Category:Soap operas use (soap opera), just as many use (TV series). I think it should be clear that only (soap opera) if there is another television with the same name -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 23:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Boy, this is a really tough one. On the one hand, I'd be tempted to use (soap opera) as the disambiguator, so the article can be about "Days of our Lives", covering both the radio and TV incarnations. But it can be quite blurry what is and is not a soap. – Quadell ( talk) ( bounties) 16:15, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that it is generally understood that "season" applies to US series, but other countries (especially the UK) use "series" instead. — Lee J Haywood 22:34, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
season is understood but is never used for british tv shows and wiki etiquette is to use the english dialect from the country of origin. Also consensus was recently reached on Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes those guidelines probably need mentioning here. Discordance 21:55, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
The section should probably read something like: "Whilst following the guidelines at Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes the following naming convention should be used:
No comments? Discordance 18:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Can the example links be modified so that they are not red? It looks awful. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 22:57, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Then why do all other naming conventions follow another style if the convention is so important to see? -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 23:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
The tt looks better than my font tags. Thanks. – Quadell ( talk) ( bounties) 14:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I made some changes (hopefully improvements), moving the commonly used convention items closer to the top and removing some text and providing examples. I'm sure it can be improved, but I think it's ready to become a guideline and the fun fun process of moving articles can begin. Any other thoughts? -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 18:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
So, if I wanted to dab an episode name, what should it be? Foo (Bar episode) or Foo (Bar)? The page references the latter but makes no mention of the former. I prefer the former since it's very likely that it may conflict with something else in the TV series: Ensign Ro and Ensign Ro (TNG episode).
I guess I would like to see the former option added as an either/or to Foo (Bar). If not that then to use Foo (Bar episode) when "Foo" is ambiguous within "Bar". Comments? Cburnett 00:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
As I've gone around renaming shows according to the naming convention, I've notice a few shows that do not necessarily fit into the convention (which may not be a bad thing). In most of these cases they are shows that appear in different formats which have been adapted from a different medium (radio, manga, play, films, film shorts, novels) to television. Usually the articles are not long enough to split into two separate articles or should be paired together. These article often appear in the TV categories, but may not necessarily belong. I have put these items down for future reference. For some of the articles like [[ Beulah or Dragnet should have the disambiguator (series) after them because they were clearly a series in all formats. For other shows the division is not so clear. I'm not yet sure what to do with the shows so I am leaving these for suggestions. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 18:25, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
You linked to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television) as justification for your move. However that page only deals with naming when disambiguation needs to occur. From that page: "Remember the disambiguator should only be added if multiple articles would normally have the same name." In the case of The Office (US) no disambiguation was needed, The Office (US) is not the name of anything else. Qutezuce 00:03, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
The top level MoS prefers U.S., should we nt follow that here? Rich Farmbrough 11:35 10 May 2006 (UTC).
Don't know if anyone noticed, but there's a discussion over at WP:WSS/P about the naming and organization of television category stubs. Her Pegship 22:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
If I'm going to write an article on a Korean variety show, how would I name it (it's called "X-Man", so I need a descriptor after it)? It's not exactly a serial, but would X-Man (variety show) work? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SKS2K6 ( talk • contribs) .
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
|
There is a new discussion of the naming convention of TV shows at the disambiguation talk page. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 16:42, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
A new draft poll is available for comment and revision. The poll will begin on January 24 and end February 15, 2006. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 21:49, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television)/poll has begun and is ready for votes. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 05:35, 24 January 2006 (UTC)
Despite the closure of the previous poll, this is still remains a proposed naming convention. Please do not begin renaming shows until this convention arrives at some sort of consensus. Many articles have remained at their title for years without dispute, please do not start changing them until discussions are complete. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 21:22, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I still think that there are some unresolved issues in the naming convention that need to be dealt with. Issues which I have suggested in a follow up poll. As such, I do not think that this proposed policy is ready to be a guideline.
Unresolved issues
While I do not own this article, I have put significant effort into making sure that the first poll has run smoothly, a process which I think has been usurped by an editor who has made controversial edits on this topic in the past. Because of this controversial past, I have put an emphasis on process to make sure that this issue is satisfactorily resolved without dispute, something at which it appears I have failed.
If you feel that these issues need further discussion, please leave suggestion and comments here. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 22:28, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
The decision was split, but several people in the poll indicated willingness to side with "TV" just to get consensus and consistency. -- Netoholic @ 22:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Emotions aside, this is a difficult case. Voter overwhelmingly rejected a heterogenous solution (use either TV or Television, depending on what one feels like), but were split right down the middle on which it should be. At the end, one person changed his vote in order to get a consensus, giving "TV" a slight edge, and RR voiced a willingness to do so as well. I voted "television", but I would also be willing to switch for consensus sake. In addition, if a re-vote were held, my gut feeling is that some people would switch from "television" to "TV" simply because it was decided to use "television/TV program/series", and some people would think "television" looks better on its own, but "TV program" looks better as a grouping.
For these reasons, I think we should use "TV" as the standard, and only hold a re-vote if several people think it's important enough to do so. – Quadell ( talk) ( bounties) 15:50, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
"TV movie" is the more frequent usage by far. -- Netoholic @ 22:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Some movies (though rarely) are shown first on TV and then in the theatre. Often when I rent a DVD, I don't care where it was shown. I think a TV movie should simply be disambiguated with (film), just as a direct-to-video movie would be. If there's a TV movie and a theatre movie with the same title, I'd use the year to disambiguate. I don't see Title (TV film) or Title (TV movie) as necessary disambiguators at all. – Quadell ( talk) ( bounties) 15:58, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
The reasoning behind leaving this as "TV movie" is based on several sources which make an explicit delineation between films and television movies. Until someone cites reliable sources which treat them the same, it is not appropriate for Wikipedia to counter this common usage. -- Netoholic @ 19:04, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
The MPAA, as well as other film rating systems, treat TV movies as films. Do a search for "Truman", "Duel" at [5]. The Sopranos do not get a rating at the MPAA. In some cases, TV and movie ratings are clumped together (certificates), but content shown on TV and released on DVD are treated differently, compare [6] and [7], and [8] and [9]. Amazon also doesn't specify a difference between television movies [10] putting it into the "DVD" category. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 21:33, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
The connotation of "show" implies anything broadcast (repeating series, movies, etc), whereas "program" is more clearly a one-time production or event. -- Netoholic @ 22:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Perhaps as a comprimise for new shows, sketch shows, magazine style shows and educational shows would use (TV show) since they are not a series. This would simplify the naming and use an commonly used disambiguator -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 15:27, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
After reading all these complications, I am more and more convinced that (TV show) would be the best disambiguator. Unfortunately, the community voted overwhelmingly to use TV program[me] and TV series as well as show. So I guess we need to nail down when to use program, series, or show.
It would seem to me that "TV program" should be used only for shows that are clearly programs, and "TV series" should be used only for shows that are clearly series, and "TV show" should be used for shows that are not clearly series or programs. Any way we do it, we'll have to do lots of rds. – Quadell ( talk) ( bounties) 16:06, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
Cartoon, TV series and animated series are common disambiguators. I think these should use "TV series" by default and animated series only when disambiguating from other shows. Cartoon should be depricated. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 04:46, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
i dont like animated series as the alternative, its a little ambiguous not to mention the actual page is animated television series. why not animated TV series it seems more consistent. Discordance 23:09, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
TV + "game show" feels extremely redundant, and the way things have srpung naturally, "game show" alone has been preferred. -- Netoholic @ 22:46, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
I would use (game show), and only use (TV game show) if the article is specifically about the TV version and not the radio version. – Quadell ( talk) ( bounties) 16:12, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
If we are going to be putting (TV series) after the title of every tv programme on wikipedia id rather see (TV game show) used. Discordance 23:13, 24 February 2006 (UTC)
While some of the articles at Category:Soap operas use (soap opera), just as many use (TV series). I think it should be clear that only (soap opera) if there is another television with the same name -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 23:44, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Boy, this is a really tough one. On the one hand, I'd be tempted to use (soap opera) as the disambiguator, so the article can be about "Days of our Lives", covering both the radio and TV incarnations. But it can be quite blurry what is and is not a soap. – Quadell ( talk) ( bounties) 16:15, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I think that it is generally understood that "season" applies to US series, but other countries (especially the UK) use "series" instead. — Lee J Haywood 22:34, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
season is understood but is never used for british tv shows and wiki etiquette is to use the english dialect from the country of origin. Also consensus was recently reached on Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes those guidelines probably need mentioning here. Discordance 21:55, 21 February 2006 (UTC)
The section should probably read something like: "Whilst following the guidelines at Wikipedia:Centralized discussion/Television episodes the following naming convention should be used:
No comments? Discordance 18:30, 27 February 2006 (UTC)
Can the example links be modified so that they are not red? It looks awful. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 22:57, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
Then why do all other naming conventions follow another style if the convention is so important to see? -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 23:59, 16 February 2006 (UTC)
The tt looks better than my font tags. Thanks. – Quadell ( talk) ( bounties) 14:40, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I made some changes (hopefully improvements), moving the commonly used convention items closer to the top and removing some text and providing examples. I'm sure it can be improved, but I think it's ready to become a guideline and the fun fun process of moving articles can begin. Any other thoughts? -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 18:16, 28 February 2006 (UTC)
So, if I wanted to dab an episode name, what should it be? Foo (Bar episode) or Foo (Bar)? The page references the latter but makes no mention of the former. I prefer the former since it's very likely that it may conflict with something else in the TV series: Ensign Ro and Ensign Ro (TNG episode).
I guess I would like to see the former option added as an either/or to Foo (Bar). If not that then to use Foo (Bar episode) when "Foo" is ambiguous within "Bar". Comments? Cburnett 00:21, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
As I've gone around renaming shows according to the naming convention, I've notice a few shows that do not necessarily fit into the convention (which may not be a bad thing). In most of these cases they are shows that appear in different formats which have been adapted from a different medium (radio, manga, play, films, film shorts, novels) to television. Usually the articles are not long enough to split into two separate articles or should be paired together. These article often appear in the TV categories, but may not necessarily belong. I have put these items down for future reference. For some of the articles like [[ Beulah or Dragnet should have the disambiguator (series) after them because they were clearly a series in all formats. For other shows the division is not so clear. I'm not yet sure what to do with the shows so I am leaving these for suggestions. -- Reflex Reaction ( talk)• 18:25, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
You linked to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (television) as justification for your move. However that page only deals with naming when disambiguation needs to occur. From that page: "Remember the disambiguator should only be added if multiple articles would normally have the same name." In the case of The Office (US) no disambiguation was needed, The Office (US) is not the name of anything else. Qutezuce 00:03, 30 March 2006 (UTC)
The top level MoS prefers U.S., should we nt follow that here? Rich Farmbrough 11:35 10 May 2006 (UTC).
Don't know if anyone noticed, but there's a discussion over at WP:WSS/P about the naming and organization of television category stubs. Her Pegship 22:58, 23 May 2006 (UTC)
If I'm going to write an article on a Korean variety show, how would I name it (it's called "X-Man", so I need a descriptor after it)? It's not exactly a serial, but would X-Man (variety show) work? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by SKS2K6 ( talk • contribs) .