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NOTE: Copied from the Village pump discussion Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#.22United_States.22_or_.22U.S..22_in_Category_titles Semiconscious · talk 01:16, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I've proposed changing the category title Category:United_States presidential candidates to Category:U.S. presidential candidates ( see proposal here). It looks like there's an opinion on the "Categories for deletion" page against changing. That's fine with me. But we need some consistency.
What I'm looking for is a consistent standard for Category titles when the name of the country starts the title. This isn't about Articles, Templates, or content (although it's not unrelated). If you look at Category:U.S. presidential elections you'll see both used.
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories) says to use "United States" when in a list of countries or when using "…of the United States" or "…in the United States." But what I'm talking about is when "United States" starts the category name, such as Category:United States presidential candidates, or the like. Surf around near Category:United States presidential candidates and see what I mean.
— Mark Adler (markles) 13:40, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
As Radiant! points out, most sub-naming conventions are tagged with template:guideline rather than template:policy. Why should this one be different? The answer is that this one includes both guidelines (for example, the "General naming conventions" section) and procedural instructions, specifically the first paragraph in the "Categories by country" section which elevates conformance to the list of "by country" conventions to the list of speedy rename criteria and specifies how the list of conventions are maintained. The speedy rename criteria is included in Wikipedia:Category deletion policy (which is marked with template:policy), although the list of "by country" conventions is not included there. I'd be OK with moving (all) the policy related information elsewhere and reducing this page to a naming guidelines page, but without doing that I'm reluctant to simply tag this as a guideline. -- Rick Block ( talk) 15:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I picked up on the "Nationality x" vs. "in country" issue recently while expanding Category:Trade unions by country. I've held off creating more cats because I'd like to see them migrated to the in country format. I left a note at WikiProject Organized Labour, but it is a fairly small project still, and there has been no comment on the issue. Personally, I don't think there will be any objection to making this move, but perhaps people here have more experience in judging that. I'm willing to do the work on the change over, but would appreciate help in ensuring the proper steps are followed at CfD. (As a side note, I think it should be "in country", not "of country" because of the international nature of some unions.)-- Bookandcoffee 22:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
A previous discussion here [1] was unable to reach a consensus on converting to Category:Trade unions in **** from Category:****ian trade unions. Further discussion has been started at WikiProject Organized Labour. Comments and opinions are welcome. -- Bookandcoffee 22:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I've tried my best to outline the rule of thumb that's evolved for the various political office-holder categories over successive CfDs and added it to the page, explaining why some categories take "in" and some "of". That said, I realize that sticking this up here out of the blue might give it a false sense of legitimacy, so I'd welcome any comments or criticism before it gets entrenched into the general body of rules. The Tom 00:07, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Two recent discussions have taken place at CFD, and perhaps we might want to codify the categorization based on them if there is enough precedent:
It seems that royal dynasties are going with Category:Dynastyname (ie Category:Bonaparte) while political family names are going with Category:Familyname family (ie Category:Roosevelt family, being converted from Category:Roosevelt atm).
Thoughts? -- Syrthiss 16:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Quite a few disambiguation subcategories have popped up in recent history - but their naming is all over the place (the category is a self reference and for maintenance). We had a discussion at Wikipedia:Disambiguation to decide on a new naming convention.
The result was to change names like:
to
I tried to introduce the new naming convention at Category talk:Tropical cyclone disambiguation but someone said it "doesn't meet requirements of naming conventions for categories". How to I get the new naming convention approved?-- Commander Keane 22:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Currently Natural features are named "of country". I'm proposing that this be changed to "in country", with the exception of National parks and protected areas, which should remain "of country".
Country categories on Wikipedia are used in the sense of a country being a state. These categories stem from list of countries, which is comprised of " internationally recognized and generally unrecognized independent states", as well as "inhabited dependent territories, as well as areas of special sovereignty." Using these parameters for a country, something can only be "of" that country if it is of the state. Such as Category:Militaries by country (a branch of the government), Category:Companies by country (an organization which must be granted a corporate charter designed by the government), or Category:Heads of state by country (a position of office designated by the government). Each of these examples all stem from the government itself, and so their categories by country are named "of country" on Wikipedia.
Natural features however almost always pre-date the formation of any country, and do not stem in any way from a government. Some infact cross or have multiple state borders, such as the Amazon River, the Caspian Sea, or the Columbia Mountains. These natural entities are not "of" a country, they are instead in a country, or in more than one country. Moreover, in many cases natural entities have outlasted countries, such as Category:Rivers of Czechoslovakia. Changing the naming convention of Natural features to "in country" instead of "of country" is the most appropriate wording to use.
Lastly, man-made entities that fall under the subject of natural features should remain with the wording "of country", such as National parks and protected areas. This is appropriate given the "of country" naming of government-dependent entities such as companies. National parks, protected areas, and companies all require the legal approval of a government for their existance, and so are rightfully "of" that country given their creation and dependance on that country.
As an aside, I just noticed there is no entry on Wikipedia for natural feature or natural features. It looks like landform has the same meaning. Perhaps this would be a better subject title?
I welcome thoughts and comments about this proposal. Kurieeto 23:45, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd also like Category:Organizations by country to change from "Nationality x" to "of country". Organizations should be treated as Companies are, as they both require a charter from the government as a corporation, non-profit corporation, or charitable organization. Comments welcomed. Kurieeto 23:45, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
As I said here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_April_17#Category:Iranian_actresses_to_Category:Iranian_actors
Ok, let me be clearer, if somebody want to know how many Iranian, American, Japanese, Indian blah blah blah, actresses are in Wikipedia, how he\she can find out such information? I've just said, having these two words in English, is a very good opportunity, Wikipedia should be most easiest to use as well as most reliable\largest encylopedia in history, just say me how many actors and actresses are stated in wikipedia, you don't know ! and this is another problem guys, for God's sake believe SOLID materials like Wiki's current laws are fragile, not today but someday they will kill wikipedia, Mammuts were so big and unflexible so they died but ants were tiny but flexible and they are alive!. We NEED such classifications, because we can't say our readers how to search or use wiki, we can predict all of their actions and we have to do most we can, I will start another discussion about wiki laws, let go there and continue our discussion there, ok?Sasanjan 22:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
we have to separate Actresses from Actors. Sasanjan 14:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
There has been some dispute in Wikipedia:Categories for deletion about when to expand abbreviations in category names. A lot of people think it is an absolute requirement that all abbreviations be expanded. Some make exceptions for only a very few extremely well-known abbreviations. The relevant portion of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories) is:
Although this is not an absolute prohibition, it doesn't give any indication as to what the exceptions might be.
I'd like to argue that the length of the name should be a factor for category names (which is in sharp contrast to article names for which a really long name isn't much of a problem). Because category names appear at the bottom of articles in a format which puts as many categories on a line as will fit, really long names add to the clutter and make it hard to sort through more than a few categories.
Therefore I think the convention should be updated to explicitely say that avoiding long names and keeping well-known abbreviations are valid reasons for keeping an abbreviations in a category name.
I'd also like to change the criteria for speedy renaming of categories to not include the expanding of abbreviations. -- JeffW 21:11, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Category:LGBT, has been criticised, but never for having an initialism as name (afaik). I think one should avoid the use of abbreviations and acronyms in page names where possible (Compare
WP:WOTTA, which is about abbreviations in project namespace, so doesn't really apply here, nonetheless interesting for comparison), but for categories maybe not as strict as for article names (compare
wikipedia:naming conventions (acronyms)). But maybe an explicit "permission" would be as unneeded as an explicit prohibition (even for article names there's no real prohibition): I think the first principle of page naming is recognition, meaning that only well-recognised, and generally used acronyms could be used; Another principle is to make page names not longer than needed (which in the case of categories is often somewhat more an issue than for articles, so defensible to be a bit less strict on the avoidance of acronyms in the case of categories); And then, there's "good taste" (aka avoiding to be contentious when there is no need for it) - maybe that's why the acronym works better for the LGBT category. --
Francis Schonken
09:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Oppose The category system is a navigation tool. As far as possible people who are unfamiliar with a topic should be able to form an accurate idea of the contents of a category without clicking it. This can only be done by eliminating abbreviations. Bhoeble 16:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
From
Category:WAGGGS member organization to Category:World Association of Girl Guides etc etc etc:
...That puts it into areas of closing admin discretion so I am closing this as no consensus pending some insightful outcome at
Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (categories)#Spelling Out Acronyms. I personally agree that while insiders to the community know WOSM and WAGGGS, anyone from outside the community shouldn't (and likely wouldn't) open the category just to try and figure out what the acronym meant. In those latter cases, the categorization scheme on Wikipedia has failed. In the case of NASCAR, the popularity of the branding makes the acronym itself a proper name. I reserve the ability to reopen this debate with all votes in place if the above discussion doesn't break new ground. I await howls of Rouge Admin at my talk page. ;) --
Syrthiss
15:06, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
No howls of "Rogue admin!" here; instead thanks for a considered approach. Essentially I support the above, but fear new cans of worms will be opened as people argue over whether certain abbreviations are or aren't popularly/generally known. Instead, I'd suggest pitching the policy along the lines of:
That way abbreviations such as WAGGGS, WOSM, NASCAR, CCABG etc would remain as abbreviations, while (shorter) abbreviations such as ABA would most likely need expanding. Regards, David Kernow 16:32, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Valiantis' clarification re acronyms – thanks for mentioning – and since the majority view here (thus far) is to expand all abbreviations, let's forge on. Suggest the "Avoid abbreviations..." guideline under ../#General naming conventions modified to include Valiantis' point. Regards, David Kernow 11:36, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
DO NOT ALWAYS EXPAND Some categories are left alone because they're supposedly well-known (NASCAR), but others are left alone that arena't well know (ARCA). On any given day, you can find cats with abbreviations that have never been proposed for deabbrev. Some cats deabbreviations would create names almost TWO LINES LONG (like World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts member associations in the western hemisphere)...Let's get real here. Is this what we want at the bottom of articles---a cat that is a full sentence? The current policy is inconsistently enforced and would justify a category for "Articles with ridiculously long names". In such a case, an explanation at the top of the categroy page should suffice. Rlevse 20:08, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Case by case basis I agree with
Rlevse. Some things are ridiculous to expand. You can have too many words. I found a great quote: My great-grandfather used to say to his wife, my great-grandmother, who in turn told her daughter, my grandmother, who repeated it to her daughter, my mother, who used to remind her daughter, my own sister, that to talk well and eloquently was a very great art, but that an equally great one was to know the right moment to stop. ~Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Coffeeboy
18:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Oppose Nearly all of them should be expanded. NASCAR is one of only a handful of exceptions I can think of, and that is because it is much more familiar than the full form.
Hawkestone
18:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Case by case: Most of the times, a user will see a category for the first time at the end of some page. If I go to a page such as
Cars (film), I will be left wondering what NASCAR is, because NASCAR is only mentioned once in the text and never explained (and I am under the impression that almost no one outside the USAUnited States of America knows what it is). If I go to the page of a member of organization X, it will probably say at the very beginning "this is member of organization X, which stands for xx xxxx xxx". (if the article doesn't say this, it will need this clarification anyway, whatever the result of this discussion on cathegories). In this case, there will be no need to expand the abbreviation in the category name, because the reader already knows what it means. --
Lou Crazy
21:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Case by case: As per Rlevse, Lou, Coffee. -- Naha| (talk) 22:32, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd prefer this to be decided on a case by case basis as well. Some clarifying language would be helpful. I think some editors have interpreted "avoid abbreviations" to be an absolute dictum "Thou shalt not use any abbreviations", which IMO is silly. older ≠ wiser 02:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I can see this isn't going to be easy. For example- which is more recognizable: laser or light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation? And yes, lasers is a category with sub-cats of laser science and military lasers. Under the no abbreviations rule, these would be expanded to the point where only the pundits would understand it. Ditto for radar with six sub-cats. The article for laser is under laser, but the graser article is under Gamma-Ray Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. (I knew that certification would come in handy someday). A hard and fast rule is simply not going to work here. I don't think the exceptions are as rare as some may think. A shallow dive into the categories revels sonar, NASA, GNU project, and BSD. -- Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Why not throw my lot in with the radical expansionists? I would support expanding out even NASCAR. This is an encyclopedia: we always value added information over slightly increased brevity—especially in the "end material" of articles, i.e. everything below the "See also" section, with the possible exception of deleting linkspam, which is neither here nor there. People shouldn't have to click on a category to see what the acronym means—no point in creating nebulous distinction here over whether some acronyms are more well-known than others. There really is no added utility, even with the longer acronyms, of saving space in the categorization box. One exception I would support is if the acronym has become a word, which is distinct from well-known. Scuba, for example, appears in all dictionaries as a word in its own right.
It appears likely that the result of this discussion will be that this can't be speedied and that we need a case by case analysis. Even if that is true, we can still make general guidelines. I propose (for starters): I reserve the right to update this list
Also, obviously this policy should only apply to the article space. For the project space, acronyms known by Wikipedians should be fair game. Also, LGBT isn't really an acronym in the traditional sense, so its not a good example for those who oppose expansion. But it wouldn't be the end of the world if that was expanded from my point of view. savidan (talk) (e@) 08:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
For a proposal on how to name categories intended to contain wikipedia users, see this CfD entry. SeventyThree( Talk) 22:15, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I propose that all Wikipedian or User categorization categories have "Wikipedian" as part of their name to avoid any ambiguity as to their function. This also eliminates the possibility of accidentally assigning articles to non-article categories that Wikipedians seem to generate with fecundity. 132.205.45.148 23:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
The contents of Category:Environment by country currently go by the "Nationality x" wording. As the concept of nationality specifically regards a relationship between people and a nation, I'm curious why a direct sub-cat of Category:Nature uses this naming convention, which we generally only apply to socio-cultural topics that are represented as products of a nation of people, like Category:Art by nationality or Category:Rock music by nationality. Additionally, the primary cat involved here has always been named Category:Environment by country, not Category:Environment by nationality. I think it would be preferrable to switch to a wording not based on nationalities. Kurieeto 16:12, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Sory I had misspelled the link — Argentino ( talk/ cont.) 15:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm looking for comments regarding Category:Aircraft by country and its sub-cats. As an initial point, I think that Category:Aircraft by country and Category:Ships by country should use the same naming convention as they are both vehicles. Aircraft by country currently uses "nationality x" and Ships by country currently uses "of country". I would propose we use "of country" for both because this regards production or operation within the border of a country, not really the products of a nation of people.
I also find the sub-cats of Category:Aircraft by country to be very unwieldly and cumbersome. Several sub-cats like Category:Canadian sports planes 1990-1999 have existed for over a year and a half but contain only one article, and others like Category:Australian aircraft 1930-1939 would be much better suited as part of a list. I find this to be a systemic problem throughout all sub-cats of Category:Aircraft by country, and I'd appreciate comments on this category and its sub-cats. Kurieeto 13:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm proposing that Landforms by country categories be named "in country" (such as Category:Rivers in England instead of Category:Rivers of England). Currently by country categories of permanently located man-made objects are named "in country", and I don't see a reason why this policy should differ for entities not made by man that are also permanently located. Like Ethnic groups, landforms pre-date the formation of countries and human concepts of borders, and often exist within the boundries of multiple states. For these reasons among others, ethnic groups by country were given the "in country" naming convention. As an example of existing within multiple states, the Nile River article is categorized as a River of Egypt, River of Sudan, and a River of Uganda. As the river existed long before the creation of these countries, the most appropriate term to describe it is not that it is "of" these states, but rather that it is simply in these states. Discussion is appreciated prior to a mass-cfru. Kurieeto 22:19, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Several good points in opposition have been made, so I no longer think a mass-cfru for all landform by country categories is appropriate. However, to make the encyclopedia as good as possible by using the most appropriate terms, I would like to see debate and cfrus allowed for some Landforms, such as those that are without question inside a nation's borders. My proposal is therefore ammended to only ask that not all landforms be named "of country" mandatorily, given support for some of them being described most appropriately by "in country". Kurieeto 14:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to tidy some parts of a WikiProject, and I've bumped into the issue of whether to expand an abbreviation or not. In view of the long discussion here Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(categories)#Abbreviations:_to_expand_or_not_to_expand I'd like to tackle this as a generic thing rather than another case-by-case problem. What we've got in the National Health Service in the UK is an organisation where its well-known logo just says "NHS". And, without personally reading every page of 62 million Google search results for "NHS" I think the acronym is pretty unambiguous worldwide. In other words, the logo is a recognised alternative name that's a whole lot shorter. Without trying to draft Wikipolicy, I'm thinking that after "former abbreviations that have become the official name should be used in their official forms where there are no other conflicts" it might make sense to say a little bit more about possible exceptions. Maybe, "similarly, where there are no other conflicts, an abbreviation that is used as an official alternative name or logo with global recognition can be considered as an exception." For example, can we sensibly standardise on the short version of NHS? (The issue "NHS v. National Health Service" surfaced in Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:NHS_defunct_bodies_to_Category:NHS_defunct_organisationswhere I now recognise some of the usernames!) -- Mereda 16:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the wrong end of the stick has been seized here. It is not just a question of the logo, which was created a long time after the acronym 'NHS' gained general currency; thus logo criteria are not germane to the issue. The National Health Service is, according to various calculations, the 3rd, 4th or 5th largest organisation in the world. Its structure is extremely complicated and that necessitates a number of categories so that the topic can be clearly defined and 'routed' for Wikipedia readers. In these circumstances it is apropriate to continue to use the generally accepted acronym NHS, which has been used for over 50 years. There is no case, or reason under Wikipedia conventions, to expand it.-- Smerus 09:15, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Recently, "Greek exceptionalism" advocates (mainly 2-3 folks) were using the categories named "Native of Foo" to mean non-immigrant, excluding folks actually born in a place whose great grandparents had been immigrants or refugees. Nativism rearing its ugly head.
During the debate, it was mentioned that several other places use the "Native of Foo" in the same way:
While it's hard to tell, I don't doubt that there is some confusion, and that some folks are using those categories in that nativist fashion. The rest of the 'pedia seems to use the "People from Foo" form instead.
I'd like to standardize on "People from Foo" to avoid further confusion.
After related discussion at the Village Pump, added subsection on Residence, distinguished from Occupation.
Further to the above, perhaps a consensus may be reached over the following:
Replace
with
Folks may be interested and perhaps surprised to learn that there appears to've been very little discussion of category naming and abbreviations in general until recently. Most of the history appears to concern the use of abbreviations for country names – which is not the issue here.
I believe all the above indicates that:
I don't believe the "Avoid abbreviations..." statement should include directions for which there is no consensus. Hence I suggest it is replaced by:
Regards,
David Kernow
00:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
PS
More detail from the review.
Thanks for your information, William.
Yours, David Kernow 01:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
You want to know my vote on something, ask me outright, don't vote for me based on your own interpretation of what I have said. People should always apply good faith. Also, if you want to know where abbreviations have been discussed look through the old manual of style archives, they've been discussed there a few times too, as well as at CFD. At the time this page was created, the consensus at CFD was that we should avoid abbreviations. There was no poll or discussion because the discussion had been held in cfd after cfd. It had wide agreement at the time and didn't need discussion. I wouldn't want people to think that a lack of transparency indicates anything other than the fact that Wikipedia is not a democracy, and nor should anyone attempt to build a position based on the perceived lack of transparency. Hiding Talk 13:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
A proposal at Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion has generated some discussion regarding if Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories) should defer to Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Naming guidelines#Categories, or the other way around, in regard to naming guidelines for categories exclusively containing stubs. Input there is appreciated. Kurieeto 16:52, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
There's a long list of ethnicity nominations heating up at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 July 3.
We need a firm policy on this for Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories).
This needs clear policy and forceful enforcement. We have a real problem with racism among some of the editors.
For example, folks with 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, and 1/16 Black ancestry are again being categorized as "African-American" without any verifiability. I don't want to go back to the days where folks were called " mulatto", " quadroon" and " octaroon". It's certainly not appropriate for a modern encyclopedia.
Another example:
I find the racist sentiment repugnant. It is contrary to current practices. For notable examples in the popular media:
Are there any existing Proposed guidelines or policy or essays? I'm planning on writing a new one, and it would be helpful to know where the previous attempts have been made.
If folks could point me at past discussion, I will try to formulate something in the next few days. Thank you.
I have added to the policy page, new section Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Heritage. Note that I'm deliberately using a very broad umbrella term, rather than a list of "ancestry, class, culture, ethnicity, national origin, race, religion, or previous condition of servitude".
The determinative use of hyphens to distinguish the adjectival word order was overwhelmingly supported at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) and recent Categories for Discussion pages, such as Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 July 3.
The requirement that living people must have self-identified was overwhelmingly supported on the Village pump, while the status of historical people was harder to determine. I've crafted wording that reflects a cross-selection of the arguments there.
Remember, these are Wikipedia:Naming conventions, and need to be concise. The detailed guidelines for inclusion and interpretation will be at Wikipedia:Categorization of people, where we can worry about other issues.
Any changes to hyphenation are now subject to speedy renaming, pursuant to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Categories by nationality.
Am I the only one who feels that this needed much more discussion before becoming policy? There are a lot of editors who edit the "Abcd American" articles that would have an opinion about this. It seems like this policy was just being passed under the radar and then unilaterally enforced.
And I'd like to point out that the U.S. Census does not use hyphens in its categorisations. Personally I would think that would be more authoritative. --- Hong Qi Gong 15:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 July 14#unhyphenated-American result was " short with 64%". Apparently, despite the numerous previous such debates, and existing policy, the closer felt that the threshhold should be 67%, or that somebody was somehow proposing that everything should be renamed in the form: "American African" (the closer isn't clear). I didn't see any such ambiguity.
If you haven't been paying attention to this discussion for over 6 months, then it might seem "passed under the radar". For the rest of us, it seems long and drawn out.
The 2000 US census reports (alphabetically):
Are you positing a straw man? Do you really think we should consolidate all the American categories to these few?
And should we do the same to the rest of the world?
The place that the policy was decided was myriad Cfd and Village Pump discussions over a period of more than 6 months. That's how it works.
Yes.
Why exactly are you referencing a decade old ACS report that used some old racial categories? Do you not know the difference? Or realize that the latest census was 2000? Or read the Congressional Record on the racial question changes? You either want the official US census designations, or something else, but you cannot have your cake and eat it too. I'd suggest a logic course....
And why do you think that any US designations apply to the entire world?
Hi, a few of us have been working on articles about clothing/fashion and their history and we'd like to make a sensible set of top-level categories under Category:Clothing. We've come up with the following proposal and we'd appreciate your input very much
One point that may catch your eye is the distinction between nationality, ethnicity and culture. Presently, we're thinking of using these terms as they're defined in Wikipedia, roughly speaking, peoples defined by political boundaries, genetic heritage and common viewpoint, respectively. For example, "Polish clothing" (which would include clothing worn by Poles at all points in their history) would seem to belong under Category:Clothing by ethnicity, since Poland was politically Swedish, Russian and German at various points in its history. Similarly, "Clothing in ancient Rome" would seem to belong under Category:Clothing by nationality and, I dunno, "Goth subculture clothing" would belong under Category:Clothing by culture, since it covers people linked by a common culture, not genetically or politically.
The other categories are relatively straightforward. Category:Clothing by geography covers subjects such as "clothing worn in cold climates" or "clothing worn at high altitudes". Category:Clothing by use covers clothing by occupation and occasion, such as "fireman clothing", or "maternity wear", or "wedding clothing". Category:Clothing by person groups articles by the person wearing it, e.g., "women's clothing", "men's clothing", "children's clothing", etc. Finally, Category:Design and construction of clothing covers the technical details of how clothing is made and designed.
We've tried to make these top-level categories as independent of each other as possible, e.g., so that the time can be specified independently of the ethnicity, independently of the occupation, independently of the person, etc. We've also tried to be as consistent with Wikipedia definitions as possible. Please let us know if you like these categories and if you have any suggestions -- thanks muchly! :) WillowW 16:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi WillowW,
Brought the language from Wikipedia:Categorization of people#By residence, as a description of the naming convention. This has been thoroughly vetted by recent CfD debates.
Isn't this page a naming convention guideline that should have this tag: {{Wikipedia subcat guideline|naming conventions|Categories}} So why is it tagged as an official policy? CG 13:11, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I know, I organised Wikipedia:List of policies. But I want to know why has it been elevated to official policy? CG 21:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
If this page is policy, then should it be changed or added to without the changes going through the same policy process? -- JeffW 00:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be some confusion about what "policy" means. None of the Wikipedia:five pillars would even remotely be considered a procedural instruction.
Indeed, under the usual understanding in the legal field known as "administrative procedure", that's exactly backwards. The "statutes" and "regulations" are the policy. The "guidelines" are the procedures governing the application of policy. They are binding on the administrative agency.
Here, the policy is what to name the categories, and governs the decisions about what are legitimate categories. That is (hopefully) relatively constant. This provides coherent structure and organization, a very appropriate thing for a policy.
The guidelines are how to populate the categories. There are quite a few. If there are things here that seem better matched to one of the category population guidelines, let's discuss that -- where we agree, divert to the appropriate guideline.
As another participant, I'll concur with Rick's memory. We advertised this thing everywhere. We hashed it all out on the talk page and settled on tagging it as a policy. Given it has survived this long as policy, I'd say that makes it policy. Hiding Talk 13:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I have a question - If the naming conventions are policy with a scope of the entire Category namespace, am I correct in saying that for example Category:United States military images and Category:United States military stubs should be renamed to Category:Military of the United States images and Category:Military of the United States stubs? If discussion regarding such a renaming of for example the latter at Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion reaches no consensus or consensus in opposition, what course of action should an administrator take when processing the nomination? Kurieeto 01:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
A couple of us at WikiProject Organized Labour want to sub-divide the Category:Labor disputes into Category:Labour disputes by country. I'm of the opinion that the wording should be in the format Category:Labour disputes in Canada, not of Canada. Is this a clear enough case that we can just proceed, or would you recommend a more detailed discussion? -- Bookandcoffee 16:53, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
After a bit of discussion at Wikipedia talk:Categorization now archived here, I've started work on creating and populating some occupation categories by language. The general idea is that when there are occupations that use language, it is often more useful to have the subcategories of that occupation split by the language used than split by nationality. For example, writers, philosophers, singers, directors. As recent discussion at CFD brought up ( Category:German-language philosophers), by having language categories, we can combine groups that are artificially broken up by nationality. I have some questions about how these categories should be named.
Suggestions? Comments? -- Samuel Wantman 23:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
There is a current vote at WP:CFD to rename more than a hundred cats in the subcats of Category:Transportation by continent (i.e. Category:Transportation in Asia, Category:Transportation in South America, Category:Transportation in South America) to reflect the fact that 'transportation' is an American term, whereas 'transport' is the standard in British English. There doesn't seem to be any mention here on the potential conflict between category standardisation and the MoS, so I'm wondering if there has been discussion on this issue, and if not should there be? :) Ziggurat 22:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
If I might propose a compromise which is inspired by a comment someone made on the Talk:Transport in Jordan page. Any country that has a Ministry of Transport or equivalent should use "Transport in ..." and countries that have a Department of Transportation or equivalent should use "Transportation in ..." Jooler 10:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I am ready for civil discussion about this policy, I always was. Just one thing, I think all these articles were first named "Transportation in " cause when Wikipedia started a few years ago, users inserted info from PD CIA World Factbook which uses "Transportation" everywhere. - Darwinek 21:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Related to the discussion above, I've started a new project for discussion, consensus building, and (later) enforcement of the use regional English language variants in WP articles (use shortcut WP:REDS). Certainly in its infancy now, but hopefully can become a helpful project in the future. SB Johnny 11:25, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
We have categories of the form "Cities and towns in...", giving (natural) precedence to the larger entities. So why do we seem to use Category:Fictional towns and cities in Foo as a convention? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Grutness... wha? 01:11, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Heads up. Some people refuse to accept that Hong Kong is part of China. We have a couple of sparse discussions at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 August 6#Category:Hong Kong people and Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 August 6#Category:People of Hong Kong descent.
Hong Kong is not an ethnicity nor a nationality. Other than this, I'm unaware of any categorization of people by the city or town where ancestors were born. No other "colonies" of any civilization are treated as countries for "descent". Macau isn't treated this way. Nor was Hong Kong ever a "city-state" (like Athens) that warred and settled treaties with other nations. Hong Kong reverted to China after the end of a treaty between China and Britain (not Hong Kong and Britain).
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
NOTE: Copied from the Village pump discussion Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#.22United_States.22_or_.22U.S..22_in_Category_titles Semiconscious · talk 01:16, 12 January 2006 (UTC)
I've proposed changing the category title Category:United_States presidential candidates to Category:U.S. presidential candidates ( see proposal here). It looks like there's an opinion on the "Categories for deletion" page against changing. That's fine with me. But we need some consistency.
What I'm looking for is a consistent standard for Category titles when the name of the country starts the title. This isn't about Articles, Templates, or content (although it's not unrelated). If you look at Category:U.S. presidential elections you'll see both used.
Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories) says to use "United States" when in a list of countries or when using "…of the United States" or "…in the United States." But what I'm talking about is when "United States" starts the category name, such as Category:United States presidential candidates, or the like. Surf around near Category:United States presidential candidates and see what I mean.
— Mark Adler (markles) 13:40, 9 January 2006 (UTC)
As Radiant! points out, most sub-naming conventions are tagged with template:guideline rather than template:policy. Why should this one be different? The answer is that this one includes both guidelines (for example, the "General naming conventions" section) and procedural instructions, specifically the first paragraph in the "Categories by country" section which elevates conformance to the list of "by country" conventions to the list of speedy rename criteria and specifies how the list of conventions are maintained. The speedy rename criteria is included in Wikipedia:Category deletion policy (which is marked with template:policy), although the list of "by country" conventions is not included there. I'd be OK with moving (all) the policy related information elsewhere and reducing this page to a naming guidelines page, but without doing that I'm reluctant to simply tag this as a guideline. -- Rick Block ( talk) 15:36, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
I picked up on the "Nationality x" vs. "in country" issue recently while expanding Category:Trade unions by country. I've held off creating more cats because I'd like to see them migrated to the in country format. I left a note at WikiProject Organized Labour, but it is a fairly small project still, and there has been no comment on the issue. Personally, I don't think there will be any objection to making this move, but perhaps people here have more experience in judging that. I'm willing to do the work on the change over, but would appreciate help in ensuring the proper steps are followed at CfD. (As a side note, I think it should be "in country", not "of country" because of the international nature of some unions.)-- Bookandcoffee 22:04, 1 March 2006 (UTC)
A previous discussion here [1] was unable to reach a consensus on converting to Category:Trade unions in **** from Category:****ian trade unions. Further discussion has been started at WikiProject Organized Labour. Comments and opinions are welcome. -- Bookandcoffee 22:46, 6 May 2006 (UTC)
I've tried my best to outline the rule of thumb that's evolved for the various political office-holder categories over successive CfDs and added it to the page, explaining why some categories take "in" and some "of". That said, I realize that sticking this up here out of the blue might give it a false sense of legitimacy, so I'd welcome any comments or criticism before it gets entrenched into the general body of rules. The Tom 00:07, 14 March 2006 (UTC)
Two recent discussions have taken place at CFD, and perhaps we might want to codify the categorization based on them if there is enough precedent:
It seems that royal dynasties are going with Category:Dynastyname (ie Category:Bonaparte) while political family names are going with Category:Familyname family (ie Category:Roosevelt family, being converted from Category:Roosevelt atm).
Thoughts? -- Syrthiss 16:24, 20 March 2006 (UTC)
Quite a few disambiguation subcategories have popped up in recent history - but their naming is all over the place (the category is a self reference and for maintenance). We had a discussion at Wikipedia:Disambiguation to decide on a new naming convention.
The result was to change names like:
to
I tried to introduce the new naming convention at Category talk:Tropical cyclone disambiguation but someone said it "doesn't meet requirements of naming conventions for categories". How to I get the new naming convention approved?-- Commander Keane 22:50, 29 March 2006 (UTC)
Currently Natural features are named "of country". I'm proposing that this be changed to "in country", with the exception of National parks and protected areas, which should remain "of country".
Country categories on Wikipedia are used in the sense of a country being a state. These categories stem from list of countries, which is comprised of " internationally recognized and generally unrecognized independent states", as well as "inhabited dependent territories, as well as areas of special sovereignty." Using these parameters for a country, something can only be "of" that country if it is of the state. Such as Category:Militaries by country (a branch of the government), Category:Companies by country (an organization which must be granted a corporate charter designed by the government), or Category:Heads of state by country (a position of office designated by the government). Each of these examples all stem from the government itself, and so their categories by country are named "of country" on Wikipedia.
Natural features however almost always pre-date the formation of any country, and do not stem in any way from a government. Some infact cross or have multiple state borders, such as the Amazon River, the Caspian Sea, or the Columbia Mountains. These natural entities are not "of" a country, they are instead in a country, or in more than one country. Moreover, in many cases natural entities have outlasted countries, such as Category:Rivers of Czechoslovakia. Changing the naming convention of Natural features to "in country" instead of "of country" is the most appropriate wording to use.
Lastly, man-made entities that fall under the subject of natural features should remain with the wording "of country", such as National parks and protected areas. This is appropriate given the "of country" naming of government-dependent entities such as companies. National parks, protected areas, and companies all require the legal approval of a government for their existance, and so are rightfully "of" that country given their creation and dependance on that country.
As an aside, I just noticed there is no entry on Wikipedia for natural feature or natural features. It looks like landform has the same meaning. Perhaps this would be a better subject title?
I welcome thoughts and comments about this proposal. Kurieeto 23:45, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
I'd also like Category:Organizations by country to change from "Nationality x" to "of country". Organizations should be treated as Companies are, as they both require a charter from the government as a corporation, non-profit corporation, or charitable organization. Comments welcomed. Kurieeto 23:45, 20 April 2006 (UTC)
As I said here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion/Log/2006_April_17#Category:Iranian_actresses_to_Category:Iranian_actors
Ok, let me be clearer, if somebody want to know how many Iranian, American, Japanese, Indian blah blah blah, actresses are in Wikipedia, how he\she can find out such information? I've just said, having these two words in English, is a very good opportunity, Wikipedia should be most easiest to use as well as most reliable\largest encylopedia in history, just say me how many actors and actresses are stated in wikipedia, you don't know ! and this is another problem guys, for God's sake believe SOLID materials like Wiki's current laws are fragile, not today but someday they will kill wikipedia, Mammuts were so big and unflexible so they died but ants were tiny but flexible and they are alive!. We NEED such classifications, because we can't say our readers how to search or use wiki, we can predict all of their actions and we have to do most we can, I will start another discussion about wiki laws, let go there and continue our discussion there, ok?Sasanjan 22:07, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
we have to separate Actresses from Actors. Sasanjan 14:31, 25 April 2006 (UTC)
There has been some dispute in Wikipedia:Categories for deletion about when to expand abbreviations in category names. A lot of people think it is an absolute requirement that all abbreviations be expanded. Some make exceptions for only a very few extremely well-known abbreviations. The relevant portion of Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories) is:
Although this is not an absolute prohibition, it doesn't give any indication as to what the exceptions might be.
I'd like to argue that the length of the name should be a factor for category names (which is in sharp contrast to article names for which a really long name isn't much of a problem). Because category names appear at the bottom of articles in a format which puts as many categories on a line as will fit, really long names add to the clutter and make it hard to sort through more than a few categories.
Therefore I think the convention should be updated to explicitely say that avoiding long names and keeping well-known abbreviations are valid reasons for keeping an abbreviations in a category name.
I'd also like to change the criteria for speedy renaming of categories to not include the expanding of abbreviations. -- JeffW 21:11, 28 April 2006 (UTC)
Category:LGBT, has been criticised, but never for having an initialism as name (afaik). I think one should avoid the use of abbreviations and acronyms in page names where possible (Compare
WP:WOTTA, which is about abbreviations in project namespace, so doesn't really apply here, nonetheless interesting for comparison), but for categories maybe not as strict as for article names (compare
wikipedia:naming conventions (acronyms)). But maybe an explicit "permission" would be as unneeded as an explicit prohibition (even for article names there's no real prohibition): I think the first principle of page naming is recognition, meaning that only well-recognised, and generally used acronyms could be used; Another principle is to make page names not longer than needed (which in the case of categories is often somewhat more an issue than for articles, so defensible to be a bit less strict on the avoidance of acronyms in the case of categories); And then, there's "good taste" (aka avoiding to be contentious when there is no need for it) - maybe that's why the acronym works better for the LGBT category. --
Francis Schonken
09:20, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
Oppose The category system is a navigation tool. As far as possible people who are unfamiliar with a topic should be able to form an accurate idea of the contents of a category without clicking it. This can only be done by eliminating abbreviations. Bhoeble 16:27, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
From
Category:WAGGGS member organization to Category:World Association of Girl Guides etc etc etc:
...That puts it into areas of closing admin discretion so I am closing this as no consensus pending some insightful outcome at
Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (categories)#Spelling Out Acronyms. I personally agree that while insiders to the community know WOSM and WAGGGS, anyone from outside the community shouldn't (and likely wouldn't) open the category just to try and figure out what the acronym meant. In those latter cases, the categorization scheme on Wikipedia has failed. In the case of NASCAR, the popularity of the branding makes the acronym itself a proper name. I reserve the ability to reopen this debate with all votes in place if the above discussion doesn't break new ground. I await howls of Rouge Admin at my talk page. ;) --
Syrthiss
15:06, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
No howls of "Rogue admin!" here; instead thanks for a considered approach. Essentially I support the above, but fear new cans of worms will be opened as people argue over whether certain abbreviations are or aren't popularly/generally known. Instead, I'd suggest pitching the policy along the lines of:
That way abbreviations such as WAGGGS, WOSM, NASCAR, CCABG etc would remain as abbreviations, while (shorter) abbreviations such as ABA would most likely need expanding. Regards, David Kernow 16:32, 29 April 2006 (UTC)
I agree with Valiantis' clarification re acronyms – thanks for mentioning – and since the majority view here (thus far) is to expand all abbreviations, let's forge on. Suggest the "Avoid abbreviations..." guideline under ../#General naming conventions modified to include Valiantis' point. Regards, David Kernow 11:36, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
DO NOT ALWAYS EXPAND Some categories are left alone because they're supposedly well-known (NASCAR), but others are left alone that arena't well know (ARCA). On any given day, you can find cats with abbreviations that have never been proposed for deabbrev. Some cats deabbreviations would create names almost TWO LINES LONG (like World Association of Girl Guides and Girl Scouts member associations in the western hemisphere)...Let's get real here. Is this what we want at the bottom of articles---a cat that is a full sentence? The current policy is inconsistently enforced and would justify a category for "Articles with ridiculously long names". In such a case, an explanation at the top of the categroy page should suffice. Rlevse 20:08, 30 April 2006 (UTC)
Case by case basis I agree with
Rlevse. Some things are ridiculous to expand. You can have too many words. I found a great quote: My great-grandfather used to say to his wife, my great-grandmother, who in turn told her daughter, my grandmother, who repeated it to her daughter, my mother, who used to remind her daughter, my own sister, that to talk well and eloquently was a very great art, but that an equally great one was to know the right moment to stop. ~Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart
Coffeeboy
18:16, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Oppose Nearly all of them should be expanded. NASCAR is one of only a handful of exceptions I can think of, and that is because it is much more familiar than the full form.
Hawkestone
18:30, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Case by case: Most of the times, a user will see a category for the first time at the end of some page. If I go to a page such as
Cars (film), I will be left wondering what NASCAR is, because NASCAR is only mentioned once in the text and never explained (and I am under the impression that almost no one outside the USAUnited States of America knows what it is). If I go to the page of a member of organization X, it will probably say at the very beginning "this is member of organization X, which stands for xx xxxx xxx". (if the article doesn't say this, it will need this clarification anyway, whatever the result of this discussion on cathegories). In this case, there will be no need to expand the abbreviation in the category name, because the reader already knows what it means. --
Lou Crazy
21:24, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
Case by case: As per Rlevse, Lou, Coffee. -- Naha| (talk) 22:32, 1 May 2006 (UTC)
I'd prefer this to be decided on a case by case basis as well. Some clarifying language would be helpful. I think some editors have interpreted "avoid abbreviations" to be an absolute dictum "Thou shalt not use any abbreviations", which IMO is silly. older ≠ wiser 02:20, 2 May 2006 (UTC)
I can see this isn't going to be easy. For example- which is more recognizable: laser or light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation? And yes, lasers is a category with sub-cats of laser science and military lasers. Under the no abbreviations rule, these would be expanded to the point where only the pundits would understand it. Ditto for radar with six sub-cats. The article for laser is under laser, but the graser article is under Gamma-Ray Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation. (I knew that certification would come in handy someday). A hard and fast rule is simply not going to work here. I don't think the exceptions are as rare as some may think. A shallow dive into the categories revels sonar, NASA, GNU project, and BSD. -- Gadget850 ( Ed) 02:37, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
Why not throw my lot in with the radical expansionists? I would support expanding out even NASCAR. This is an encyclopedia: we always value added information over slightly increased brevity—especially in the "end material" of articles, i.e. everything below the "See also" section, with the possible exception of deleting linkspam, which is neither here nor there. People shouldn't have to click on a category to see what the acronym means—no point in creating nebulous distinction here over whether some acronyms are more well-known than others. There really is no added utility, even with the longer acronyms, of saving space in the categorization box. One exception I would support is if the acronym has become a word, which is distinct from well-known. Scuba, for example, appears in all dictionaries as a word in its own right.
It appears likely that the result of this discussion will be that this can't be speedied and that we need a case by case analysis. Even if that is true, we can still make general guidelines. I propose (for starters): I reserve the right to update this list
Also, obviously this policy should only apply to the article space. For the project space, acronyms known by Wikipedians should be fair game. Also, LGBT isn't really an acronym in the traditional sense, so its not a good example for those who oppose expansion. But it wouldn't be the end of the world if that was expanded from my point of view. savidan (talk) (e@) 08:19, 3 May 2006 (UTC)
For a proposal on how to name categories intended to contain wikipedia users, see this CfD entry. SeventyThree( Talk) 22:15, 13 May 2006 (UTC)
I propose that all Wikipedian or User categorization categories have "Wikipedian" as part of their name to avoid any ambiguity as to their function. This also eliminates the possibility of accidentally assigning articles to non-article categories that Wikipedians seem to generate with fecundity. 132.205.45.148 23:56, 12 May 2006 (UTC)
The contents of Category:Environment by country currently go by the "Nationality x" wording. As the concept of nationality specifically regards a relationship between people and a nation, I'm curious why a direct sub-cat of Category:Nature uses this naming convention, which we generally only apply to socio-cultural topics that are represented as products of a nation of people, like Category:Art by nationality or Category:Rock music by nationality. Additionally, the primary cat involved here has always been named Category:Environment by country, not Category:Environment by nationality. I think it would be preferrable to switch to a wording not based on nationalities. Kurieeto 16:12, 17 May 2006 (UTC)
Sory I had misspelled the link — Argentino ( talk/ cont.) 15:19, 22 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm looking for comments regarding Category:Aircraft by country and its sub-cats. As an initial point, I think that Category:Aircraft by country and Category:Ships by country should use the same naming convention as they are both vehicles. Aircraft by country currently uses "nationality x" and Ships by country currently uses "of country". I would propose we use "of country" for both because this regards production or operation within the border of a country, not really the products of a nation of people.
I also find the sub-cats of Category:Aircraft by country to be very unwieldly and cumbersome. Several sub-cats like Category:Canadian sports planes 1990-1999 have existed for over a year and a half but contain only one article, and others like Category:Australian aircraft 1930-1939 would be much better suited as part of a list. I find this to be a systemic problem throughout all sub-cats of Category:Aircraft by country, and I'd appreciate comments on this category and its sub-cats. Kurieeto 13:51, 19 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm proposing that Landforms by country categories be named "in country" (such as Category:Rivers in England instead of Category:Rivers of England). Currently by country categories of permanently located man-made objects are named "in country", and I don't see a reason why this policy should differ for entities not made by man that are also permanently located. Like Ethnic groups, landforms pre-date the formation of countries and human concepts of borders, and often exist within the boundries of multiple states. For these reasons among others, ethnic groups by country were given the "in country" naming convention. As an example of existing within multiple states, the Nile River article is categorized as a River of Egypt, River of Sudan, and a River of Uganda. As the river existed long before the creation of these countries, the most appropriate term to describe it is not that it is "of" these states, but rather that it is simply in these states. Discussion is appreciated prior to a mass-cfru. Kurieeto 22:19, 27 May 2006 (UTC)
Several good points in opposition have been made, so I no longer think a mass-cfru for all landform by country categories is appropriate. However, to make the encyclopedia as good as possible by using the most appropriate terms, I would like to see debate and cfrus allowed for some Landforms, such as those that are without question inside a nation's borders. My proposal is therefore ammended to only ask that not all landforms be named "of country" mandatorily, given support for some of them being described most appropriately by "in country". Kurieeto 14:47, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I'm trying to tidy some parts of a WikiProject, and I've bumped into the issue of whether to expand an abbreviation or not. In view of the long discussion here Wikipedia_talk:Naming_conventions_(categories)#Abbreviations:_to_expand_or_not_to_expand I'd like to tackle this as a generic thing rather than another case-by-case problem. What we've got in the National Health Service in the UK is an organisation where its well-known logo just says "NHS". And, without personally reading every page of 62 million Google search results for "NHS" I think the acronym is pretty unambiguous worldwide. In other words, the logo is a recognised alternative name that's a whole lot shorter. Without trying to draft Wikipolicy, I'm thinking that after "former abbreviations that have become the official name should be used in their official forms where there are no other conflicts" it might make sense to say a little bit more about possible exceptions. Maybe, "similarly, where there are no other conflicts, an abbreviation that is used as an official alternative name or logo with global recognition can be considered as an exception." For example, can we sensibly standardise on the short version of NHS? (The issue "NHS v. National Health Service" surfaced in Wikipedia:Categories_for_deletion#Category:NHS_defunct_bodies_to_Category:NHS_defunct_organisationswhere I now recognise some of the usernames!) -- Mereda 16:10, 29 May 2006 (UTC)
I think the wrong end of the stick has been seized here. It is not just a question of the logo, which was created a long time after the acronym 'NHS' gained general currency; thus logo criteria are not germane to the issue. The National Health Service is, according to various calculations, the 3rd, 4th or 5th largest organisation in the world. Its structure is extremely complicated and that necessitates a number of categories so that the topic can be clearly defined and 'routed' for Wikipedia readers. In these circumstances it is apropriate to continue to use the generally accepted acronym NHS, which has been used for over 50 years. There is no case, or reason under Wikipedia conventions, to expand it.-- Smerus 09:15, 30 May 2006 (UTC)
Recently, "Greek exceptionalism" advocates (mainly 2-3 folks) were using the categories named "Native of Foo" to mean non-immigrant, excluding folks actually born in a place whose great grandparents had been immigrants or refugees. Nativism rearing its ugly head.
During the debate, it was mentioned that several other places use the "Native of Foo" in the same way:
While it's hard to tell, I don't doubt that there is some confusion, and that some folks are using those categories in that nativist fashion. The rest of the 'pedia seems to use the "People from Foo" form instead.
I'd like to standardize on "People from Foo" to avoid further confusion.
After related discussion at the Village Pump, added subsection on Residence, distinguished from Occupation.
Further to the above, perhaps a consensus may be reached over the following:
Replace
with
Folks may be interested and perhaps surprised to learn that there appears to've been very little discussion of category naming and abbreviations in general until recently. Most of the history appears to concern the use of abbreviations for country names – which is not the issue here.
I believe all the above indicates that:
I don't believe the "Avoid abbreviations..." statement should include directions for which there is no consensus. Hence I suggest it is replaced by:
Regards,
David Kernow
00:10, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
PS
More detail from the review.
Thanks for your information, William.
Yours, David Kernow 01:33, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
You want to know my vote on something, ask me outright, don't vote for me based on your own interpretation of what I have said. People should always apply good faith. Also, if you want to know where abbreviations have been discussed look through the old manual of style archives, they've been discussed there a few times too, as well as at CFD. At the time this page was created, the consensus at CFD was that we should avoid abbreviations. There was no poll or discussion because the discussion had been held in cfd after cfd. It had wide agreement at the time and didn't need discussion. I wouldn't want people to think that a lack of transparency indicates anything other than the fact that Wikipedia is not a democracy, and nor should anyone attempt to build a position based on the perceived lack of transparency. Hiding Talk 13:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
A proposal at Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion has generated some discussion regarding if Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories) should defer to Wikipedia:WikiProject Stub sorting/Naming guidelines#Categories, or the other way around, in regard to naming guidelines for categories exclusively containing stubs. Input there is appreciated. Kurieeto 16:52, 25 June 2006 (UTC)
There's a long list of ethnicity nominations heating up at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 July 3.
We need a firm policy on this for Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories).
This needs clear policy and forceful enforcement. We have a real problem with racism among some of the editors.
For example, folks with 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, and 1/16 Black ancestry are again being categorized as "African-American" without any verifiability. I don't want to go back to the days where folks were called " mulatto", " quadroon" and " octaroon". It's certainly not appropriate for a modern encyclopedia.
Another example:
I find the racist sentiment repugnant. It is contrary to current practices. For notable examples in the popular media:
Are there any existing Proposed guidelines or policy or essays? I'm planning on writing a new one, and it would be helpful to know where the previous attempts have been made.
If folks could point me at past discussion, I will try to formulate something in the next few days. Thank you.
I have added to the policy page, new section Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Heritage. Note that I'm deliberately using a very broad umbrella term, rather than a list of "ancestry, class, culture, ethnicity, national origin, race, religion, or previous condition of servitude".
The determinative use of hyphens to distinguish the adjectival word order was overwhelmingly supported at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy) and recent Categories for Discussion pages, such as Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 July 3.
The requirement that living people must have self-identified was overwhelmingly supported on the Village pump, while the status of historical people was harder to determine. I've crafted wording that reflects a cross-selection of the arguments there.
Remember, these are Wikipedia:Naming conventions, and need to be concise. The detailed guidelines for inclusion and interpretation will be at Wikipedia:Categorization of people, where we can worry about other issues.
Any changes to hyphenation are now subject to speedy renaming, pursuant to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (categories)#Categories by nationality.
Am I the only one who feels that this needed much more discussion before becoming policy? There are a lot of editors who edit the "Abcd American" articles that would have an opinion about this. It seems like this policy was just being passed under the radar and then unilaterally enforced.
And I'd like to point out that the U.S. Census does not use hyphens in its categorisations. Personally I would think that would be more authoritative. --- Hong Qi Gong 15:36, 24 July 2006 (UTC)
The Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 July 14#unhyphenated-American result was " short with 64%". Apparently, despite the numerous previous such debates, and existing policy, the closer felt that the threshhold should be 67%, or that somebody was somehow proposing that everything should be renamed in the form: "American African" (the closer isn't clear). I didn't see any such ambiguity.
If you haven't been paying attention to this discussion for over 6 months, then it might seem "passed under the radar". For the rest of us, it seems long and drawn out.
The 2000 US census reports (alphabetically):
Are you positing a straw man? Do you really think we should consolidate all the American categories to these few?
And should we do the same to the rest of the world?
The place that the policy was decided was myriad Cfd and Village Pump discussions over a period of more than 6 months. That's how it works.
Yes.
Why exactly are you referencing a decade old ACS report that used some old racial categories? Do you not know the difference? Or realize that the latest census was 2000? Or read the Congressional Record on the racial question changes? You either want the official US census designations, or something else, but you cannot have your cake and eat it too. I'd suggest a logic course....
And why do you think that any US designations apply to the entire world?
Hi, a few of us have been working on articles about clothing/fashion and their history and we'd like to make a sensible set of top-level categories under Category:Clothing. We've come up with the following proposal and we'd appreciate your input very much
One point that may catch your eye is the distinction between nationality, ethnicity and culture. Presently, we're thinking of using these terms as they're defined in Wikipedia, roughly speaking, peoples defined by political boundaries, genetic heritage and common viewpoint, respectively. For example, "Polish clothing" (which would include clothing worn by Poles at all points in their history) would seem to belong under Category:Clothing by ethnicity, since Poland was politically Swedish, Russian and German at various points in its history. Similarly, "Clothing in ancient Rome" would seem to belong under Category:Clothing by nationality and, I dunno, "Goth subculture clothing" would belong under Category:Clothing by culture, since it covers people linked by a common culture, not genetically or politically.
The other categories are relatively straightforward. Category:Clothing by geography covers subjects such as "clothing worn in cold climates" or "clothing worn at high altitudes". Category:Clothing by use covers clothing by occupation and occasion, such as "fireman clothing", or "maternity wear", or "wedding clothing". Category:Clothing by person groups articles by the person wearing it, e.g., "women's clothing", "men's clothing", "children's clothing", etc. Finally, Category:Design and construction of clothing covers the technical details of how clothing is made and designed.
We've tried to make these top-level categories as independent of each other as possible, e.g., so that the time can be specified independently of the ethnicity, independently of the occupation, independently of the person, etc. We've also tried to be as consistent with Wikipedia definitions as possible. Please let us know if you like these categories and if you have any suggestions -- thanks muchly! :) WillowW 16:04, 5 July 2006 (UTC)
Hi WillowW,
Brought the language from Wikipedia:Categorization of people#By residence, as a description of the naming convention. This has been thoroughly vetted by recent CfD debates.
Isn't this page a naming convention guideline that should have this tag: {{Wikipedia subcat guideline|naming conventions|Categories}} So why is it tagged as an official policy? CG 13:11, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
I know, I organised Wikipedia:List of policies. But I want to know why has it been elevated to official policy? CG 21:19, 8 July 2006 (UTC)
If this page is policy, then should it be changed or added to without the changes going through the same policy process? -- JeffW 00:19, 11 July 2006 (UTC)
There seems to be some confusion about what "policy" means. None of the Wikipedia:five pillars would even remotely be considered a procedural instruction.
Indeed, under the usual understanding in the legal field known as "administrative procedure", that's exactly backwards. The "statutes" and "regulations" are the policy. The "guidelines" are the procedures governing the application of policy. They are binding on the administrative agency.
Here, the policy is what to name the categories, and governs the decisions about what are legitimate categories. That is (hopefully) relatively constant. This provides coherent structure and organization, a very appropriate thing for a policy.
The guidelines are how to populate the categories. There are quite a few. If there are things here that seem better matched to one of the category population guidelines, let's discuss that -- where we agree, divert to the appropriate guideline.
As another participant, I'll concur with Rick's memory. We advertised this thing everywhere. We hashed it all out on the talk page and settled on tagging it as a policy. Given it has survived this long as policy, I'd say that makes it policy. Hiding Talk 13:38, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
I have a question - If the naming conventions are policy with a scope of the entire Category namespace, am I correct in saying that for example Category:United States military images and Category:United States military stubs should be renamed to Category:Military of the United States images and Category:Military of the United States stubs? If discussion regarding such a renaming of for example the latter at Wikipedia:Stub types for deletion reaches no consensus or consensus in opposition, what course of action should an administrator take when processing the nomination? Kurieeto 01:45, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
A couple of us at WikiProject Organized Labour want to sub-divide the Category:Labor disputes into Category:Labour disputes by country. I'm of the opinion that the wording should be in the format Category:Labour disputes in Canada, not of Canada. Is this a clear enough case that we can just proceed, or would you recommend a more detailed discussion? -- Bookandcoffee 16:53, 13 July 2006 (UTC)
After a bit of discussion at Wikipedia talk:Categorization now archived here, I've started work on creating and populating some occupation categories by language. The general idea is that when there are occupations that use language, it is often more useful to have the subcategories of that occupation split by the language used than split by nationality. For example, writers, philosophers, singers, directors. As recent discussion at CFD brought up ( Category:German-language philosophers), by having language categories, we can combine groups that are artificially broken up by nationality. I have some questions about how these categories should be named.
Suggestions? Comments? -- Samuel Wantman 23:28, 15 July 2006 (UTC)
There is a current vote at WP:CFD to rename more than a hundred cats in the subcats of Category:Transportation by continent (i.e. Category:Transportation in Asia, Category:Transportation in South America, Category:Transportation in South America) to reflect the fact that 'transportation' is an American term, whereas 'transport' is the standard in British English. There doesn't seem to be any mention here on the potential conflict between category standardisation and the MoS, so I'm wondering if there has been discussion on this issue, and if not should there be? :) Ziggurat 22:10, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
If I might propose a compromise which is inspired by a comment someone made on the Talk:Transport in Jordan page. Any country that has a Ministry of Transport or equivalent should use "Transport in ..." and countries that have a Department of Transportation or equivalent should use "Transportation in ..." Jooler 10:33, 18 July 2006 (UTC)
I am ready for civil discussion about this policy, I always was. Just one thing, I think all these articles were first named "Transportation in " cause when Wikipedia started a few years ago, users inserted info from PD CIA World Factbook which uses "Transportation" everywhere. - Darwinek 21:31, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Related to the discussion above, I've started a new project for discussion, consensus building, and (later) enforcement of the use regional English language variants in WP articles (use shortcut WP:REDS). Certainly in its infancy now, but hopefully can become a helpful project in the future. SB Johnny 11:25, 23 July 2006 (UTC)
We have categories of the form "Cities and towns in...", giving (natural) precedence to the larger entities. So why do we seem to use Category:Fictional towns and cities in Foo as a convention? Shouldn't it be the other way around? Grutness... wha? 01:11, 29 July 2006 (UTC)
Heads up. Some people refuse to accept that Hong Kong is part of China. We have a couple of sparse discussions at Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 August 6#Category:Hong Kong people and Wikipedia:Categories for deletion/Log/2006 August 6#Category:People of Hong Kong descent.
Hong Kong is not an ethnicity nor a nationality. Other than this, I'm unaware of any categorization of people by the city or town where ancestors were born. No other "colonies" of any civilization are treated as countries for "descent". Macau isn't treated this way. Nor was Hong Kong ever a "city-state" (like Athens) that warred and settled treaties with other nations. Hong Kong reverted to China after the end of a treaty between China and Britain (not Hong Kong and Britain).