Has this already been voted on as a policy (as distinct from article talk space straw poll/discussion), or is it here as a policy proposal? While it looks fine to me, it might be prudent to flag it accordingly. Alai 04:54, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Let me introduce myself. I studied Linguistics for 20 years, including 15 years at Harvard. I had hundreds of opportunities to discuss the (English) name of the language spoken in Slovenia, at the highest level. The preferred form in English for the name of this language is Slovene. Period. There is no arguing about it. Slovenian, as the name of the language, is marginally acceptable, but it is not preferred. Of course, a majority of English speakers may well say Slovenian, but that does not make it correct. Similarly, a lot of people might say Somalian, Slovakian, Abkhazian, etc., but the correct names of those languages are Somali, Slovak, Abkhaz, etc. By the way, Abkhazian also appears here and there in the Wikipedia, but the Abkhazian language article is thankfully redirected to Abkhaz language. In the case of Slovene vs. Slovenian, the decision went the other way, i.e. the wrong way, apparently on the basis of a popularity contest. Yet more evidence that the decision-by-consensus system does not always work in the interest of knowledge. This is really sad. (Note: I did not know there had been a discussion on this topic, or else I might have spoken up sooner, although I doubt much could have been done in the face of a determined, incorrect majority.) Pasquale 20:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Third Opinion - it is not the job of wikipedia to choose a single point of view on a subject when there are many, but to report on the many points of view. If one point of view is held by linguists, academics and 'experts' then, providing verifiable sources can be found, then that opinion should be attributed to them, but that opinion must not be used soley and in preference to a differing majority opinion, which can just as equally be established. -- Davémon ( talk) 18:44, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I have tagged the guideline as disputed. Previous discussion is available in the archives which you may access via the links at the top of this page. Where are your reliable sources to confirm that Slovenian should be used for the country while Slovene should be used for the nation?! -- Eleassar my talk 21:18, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
I discussed the issue on Slovene vs. Slovenian with a couple of native-speaking English translators/proof readers from the afore-mentioned translation agency (Amidas). The explanation I got is that the adjective Slovenian should be used when referring to things, except for language and culture. The language should be called Slovene, never Slovenian. Slovenian indeed seems to be preferrable when referring to matters connected with Slovenia as nation state (politics, administration, economy etc., as in Slovenian Institute for Standardisation, Slovenian Business and Research Association.
As concerns ethnic designations, the distinction is quite straightforward. Slovene is the ethnic appellation while Slovenian could be used a collective term for citizens of Slovenia who are not necessarily ethnic Slovenes. For example, the Hungarians in the Prekmurje regions could be called Hungarian/Magyar Slovenians. A member of the Slovene minority in Carinthia or Italy would be called a Slovene but not Slovenian as he is not (presumably) a citizen of Slovenia. Regards -- Jalen ( talk) 13:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I happened upon this discussion by chance, but find it quite interesting. I absolutely agree that Slovenian and Slovene are by no means interchangeable, and the correct distinction would in fact be to attribute the usage of "Slovenian" to designations related to politics, administration, economy, etc., while "Slovene" to ethnicity, culture, linguistics, etc. What intrigued me most, though, was the reasoning for the Wikipedia naming convention policy to side with "ease of understanding by the majority". I have to admit that's quite unsettling, especially since this is supposed to be a source of knowledge and enlightenment for the masses, which should make first and foremost every effort not to dumb-down the English language - that's what Simple English Wikipedia is for, and even in that case, the correct approach would be to state, at the beginning (or end) of every article using "Slovenian" instead of "Slovene", that said usage is incorrect, with a link to a separate page explaining in Simple English what the difference between "Slovenian" and "Slovene" is. Likewise for all other cases of disputed terminology usage - i.e: Wikipedia should strive for correctness, while _Simple_ Wikipedia could be permitted to side with "ease of understanding" *_provided an explanation of the correct usage be given/available at a linked article_*!
But that's just my two stotins ;p —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonnynut ( talk • contribs) 18:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't see why a discussion on this is even needed, slovenia-n obviously originates in the name Slovenia, which would mean that it only connects with things that are "of slovenia", like slovenian politics, currency, citizenship. It seems that before the country was formed in 1991 the word slovene was used. The word slovenian couldn't have even existed back then, since Slovenia didn't exist. Later it was incorrectly changed to slovenian, deriving from the country. It's like America and American, derived from the country of America, since Americans aren't an ethnic group, it's more a marker of citizenship. If they were an ethnic group that the name of the country would be derrived from, they would be the Amers or "the Ameri". So you can see how common american logic would reasonably assume Slovenes to be Slovenians. But slovene is obviously the older, more correct version, while slovenian is a recent ~20 years old formation. Everybody in Slovenia is also thought in school at English that slovene is a marker of nationality, while slovenian is a marker of citizenship. So slovenian should be taken to mean "of Slovenia"(the political formation) and slovene should be used everywhere else.
So any chance of finally changing this? 86.61.30.53 ( talk) 12:07, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
How is it even a question? Slovene has always meant "of the Slovenes" and Slovenian "of Slovenia". Like the person above has already wrote, the word Slovenian didn't even exist before 1991. Dictionary.com [4] says Slovene is preffered, so do both Merriam-Webster [5] and The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language [6]. Nerby ( talk) 22:02, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I can't believe all the hairsplitting about this topic. It's Slovene, not Slovenian. Some people claim that the Wiki's job is just to report what words people are using, without claiming one or the other is correct, but this is absurd. The Wiki is used as a reference. Any reference source has an ethical obligation to use the correct terminology. To do anything else would be to compound the linguistic error.
Similar arguments are used for non-words such as "pled" - an incorrect conjugation of "plead" widely used in North America. There is only one correct past tense of "plead" and that is "pleaded", but the willfully ignorant argue that since "pled" is in a number of dictionaries, it is correct. Dictionaries that don't bother indicating misconjugated verbs are only encouraging ignorance. Isn't that the very thing a dictionary is meant to eradicate?
Reference materials need to use correct terms, and clearly identify terms that are not. Take the battle of wills elsewhere; your obligation to present correct information to the public is more important. 91.132.202.96 ( talk) 01:01, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
The citation of the article by Dr. Edward Gobetz, under "Published works", should be removed because: (1) The article is a personal expression of opinion, not a serious treatment of the subject. It is not authoritative by any reasonable standard, and should not be cited as a Wikipedia reference. (2) The article was pasted into a Wikipedia talk page about the controversy, and can be found on the above-mentioned Archive 2. Surely the Wikipedia talk page is the proper place for this article, rather than as a citation. 24.178.228.14 ( talk) 18:02, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Nobody has or can come up with the 100% correct answer to this question. Both words are used in English and none of them is more correct. We already have a way to deal with these cases - use whatever the original author of the article used, and above all do not go around the articles correcting from one variant to another. This is the convention that applies to American vs British English, BC vs. BCE, etc. There is no reason to do anything else here. Zocky | picture popups 17:29, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
The consensus evident from the discussion above and confirmed at Talk:Slovenes and at Talk:Slovene language is that Slovene should be used for the language and ethnicity and Slovenian for people and things pertaining to Slovenia. -- Eleassar my talk 17:37, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Changing the meaning of English words? Consensus of dictionaries? Please read the section 'This decision should be reversed' above (especially comments by Pasquale and Jalen who are both linguists). -- Eleassar my talk 18:17, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
You have missed the following comment by Jalen:
"I discussed the issue on Slovene vs. Slovenian with a couple of native-speaking English translators/proof readers from the afore-mentioned translation agency (Amidas). The explanation I got is that the adjective Slovenian should be used when referring to things, except for language and culture. The language should be called Slovene, never Slovenian. Slovenian indeed seems to be preferrable when referring to matters connected with Slovenia as nation state (politics, administration, economy etc., as in Slovenian Institute for Standardisation, Slovenian Business and Research Association.
As concerns ethnic designations, the distinction is quite straightforward. Slovene is the ethnic appellation while Slovenian could be used a collective term for citizens of Slovenia who are not necessarily ethnic Slovenes. For example, the Hungarians in the Prekmurje regions could be called Hungarian/Magyar Slovenians. A member of the Slovene minority in Carinthia or Italy would be called a Slovene but not Slovenian as he is not (presumably) a citizen of Slovenia."
-- Eleassar my talk 18:29, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I may agree with you to not change every random occurrence of Slovenian to Slovene or vice versa, but when it comes to the naming of articles or presenting peoples or languages (like in the article Languages of the European Union) we should use the form that is given preference in the dictionaries and not the one that has been chosen randomly or even been pushed forward by some people who do not agree with the dictionaries. Otherwise that would constitute undue weight imo. -- Eleassar my talk 14:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Copied from my talk page. --
Eleassar
my talk
17:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Hi, there is no denotational difference between Slovene and Slovenian (for things, nationality, ethnicity, language, nouns, adjectives, etc.) so I've updated the
Dragotin Cvetko and
Fran Ramovš pages to Slovene for consistency (but left the differential piping to "Slovenia" and "Slovenes"). I have no preference for either variant of the word. Thanks for your other changes.
Doremo (
talk)
11:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
[[Slovenia]]n
is much simpler and evident than [[Slovenia|Slovene]]
, therefore more in line with
WP:LINKS that demands clear linking. --
Eleassar
my talk
12:38, 31 July 2012 (UTC)See Google n-grams that Slovene is more common in the present day. Or check the frequency of these forms at http://skell.sketchengine.co.uk/run.cgi/skell
Epheson ( talk) 09:07, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
I don't really care which is used as long as it is as consistent as possible... and since Slovenian is used more by people I'd use that.
Slovenia vs Slovenija - the international word usually used is Slovenia (although my passport/id card/drivers license all use Slovenija) but in the country Slovenija is the correct name. In practice it doesn't matter, you can use either as the country name when sending mail from other countries and it will arrive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Benzo expert ( talk • contribs) 19:55, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
We are encouraged to keep internal consistency within articles: Naming conventions are not applicable to articles that use "Slovene" or "Slovenian" in the body text only. For these articles, either term is allowable, as long as its usage is consistent. However, the template IPA-sl makes this impossible, as it forces Slovene into articles which otherwise use, for the most part, Slovenian. (eg, in the article Tadej Pogačar, Slovenian is used throughout, except for the note on pronunciation of his name in the lead) Can this be remedied? Kevin McE ( talk) 09:59, 21 July 2021 (UTC)
Has this already been voted on as a policy (as distinct from article talk space straw poll/discussion), or is it here as a policy proposal? While it looks fine to me, it might be prudent to flag it accordingly. Alai 04:54, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
Let me introduce myself. I studied Linguistics for 20 years, including 15 years at Harvard. I had hundreds of opportunities to discuss the (English) name of the language spoken in Slovenia, at the highest level. The preferred form in English for the name of this language is Slovene. Period. There is no arguing about it. Slovenian, as the name of the language, is marginally acceptable, but it is not preferred. Of course, a majority of English speakers may well say Slovenian, but that does not make it correct. Similarly, a lot of people might say Somalian, Slovakian, Abkhazian, etc., but the correct names of those languages are Somali, Slovak, Abkhaz, etc. By the way, Abkhazian also appears here and there in the Wikipedia, but the Abkhazian language article is thankfully redirected to Abkhaz language. In the case of Slovene vs. Slovenian, the decision went the other way, i.e. the wrong way, apparently on the basis of a popularity contest. Yet more evidence that the decision-by-consensus system does not always work in the interest of knowledge. This is really sad. (Note: I did not know there had been a discussion on this topic, or else I might have spoken up sooner, although I doubt much could have been done in the face of a determined, incorrect majority.) Pasquale 20:12, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Third Opinion - it is not the job of wikipedia to choose a single point of view on a subject when there are many, but to report on the many points of view. If one point of view is held by linguists, academics and 'experts' then, providing verifiable sources can be found, then that opinion should be attributed to them, but that opinion must not be used soley and in preference to a differing majority opinion, which can just as equally be established. -- Davémon ( talk) 18:44, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
I have tagged the guideline as disputed. Previous discussion is available in the archives which you may access via the links at the top of this page. Where are your reliable sources to confirm that Slovenian should be used for the country while Slovene should be used for the nation?! -- Eleassar my talk 21:18, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Hi,
I discussed the issue on Slovene vs. Slovenian with a couple of native-speaking English translators/proof readers from the afore-mentioned translation agency (Amidas). The explanation I got is that the adjective Slovenian should be used when referring to things, except for language and culture. The language should be called Slovene, never Slovenian. Slovenian indeed seems to be preferrable when referring to matters connected with Slovenia as nation state (politics, administration, economy etc., as in Slovenian Institute for Standardisation, Slovenian Business and Research Association.
As concerns ethnic designations, the distinction is quite straightforward. Slovene is the ethnic appellation while Slovenian could be used a collective term for citizens of Slovenia who are not necessarily ethnic Slovenes. For example, the Hungarians in the Prekmurje regions could be called Hungarian/Magyar Slovenians. A member of the Slovene minority in Carinthia or Italy would be called a Slovene but not Slovenian as he is not (presumably) a citizen of Slovenia. Regards -- Jalen ( talk) 13:31, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
I happened upon this discussion by chance, but find it quite interesting. I absolutely agree that Slovenian and Slovene are by no means interchangeable, and the correct distinction would in fact be to attribute the usage of "Slovenian" to designations related to politics, administration, economy, etc., while "Slovene" to ethnicity, culture, linguistics, etc. What intrigued me most, though, was the reasoning for the Wikipedia naming convention policy to side with "ease of understanding by the majority". I have to admit that's quite unsettling, especially since this is supposed to be a source of knowledge and enlightenment for the masses, which should make first and foremost every effort not to dumb-down the English language - that's what Simple English Wikipedia is for, and even in that case, the correct approach would be to state, at the beginning (or end) of every article using "Slovenian" instead of "Slovene", that said usage is incorrect, with a link to a separate page explaining in Simple English what the difference between "Slovenian" and "Slovene" is. Likewise for all other cases of disputed terminology usage - i.e: Wikipedia should strive for correctness, while _Simple_ Wikipedia could be permitted to side with "ease of understanding" *_provided an explanation of the correct usage be given/available at a linked article_*!
But that's just my two stotins ;p —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jonnynut ( talk • contribs) 18:58, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't see why a discussion on this is even needed, slovenia-n obviously originates in the name Slovenia, which would mean that it only connects with things that are "of slovenia", like slovenian politics, currency, citizenship. It seems that before the country was formed in 1991 the word slovene was used. The word slovenian couldn't have even existed back then, since Slovenia didn't exist. Later it was incorrectly changed to slovenian, deriving from the country. It's like America and American, derived from the country of America, since Americans aren't an ethnic group, it's more a marker of citizenship. If they were an ethnic group that the name of the country would be derrived from, they would be the Amers or "the Ameri". So you can see how common american logic would reasonably assume Slovenes to be Slovenians. But slovene is obviously the older, more correct version, while slovenian is a recent ~20 years old formation. Everybody in Slovenia is also thought in school at English that slovene is a marker of nationality, while slovenian is a marker of citizenship. So slovenian should be taken to mean "of Slovenia"(the political formation) and slovene should be used everywhere else.
So any chance of finally changing this? 86.61.30.53 ( talk) 12:07, 23 February 2008 (UTC)
How is it even a question? Slovene has always meant "of the Slovenes" and Slovenian "of Slovenia". Like the person above has already wrote, the word Slovenian didn't even exist before 1991. Dictionary.com [4] says Slovene is preffered, so do both Merriam-Webster [5] and The American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language [6]. Nerby ( talk) 22:02, 9 March 2008 (UTC)
I can't believe all the hairsplitting about this topic. It's Slovene, not Slovenian. Some people claim that the Wiki's job is just to report what words people are using, without claiming one or the other is correct, but this is absurd. The Wiki is used as a reference. Any reference source has an ethical obligation to use the correct terminology. To do anything else would be to compound the linguistic error.
Similar arguments are used for non-words such as "pled" - an incorrect conjugation of "plead" widely used in North America. There is only one correct past tense of "plead" and that is "pleaded", but the willfully ignorant argue that since "pled" is in a number of dictionaries, it is correct. Dictionaries that don't bother indicating misconjugated verbs are only encouraging ignorance. Isn't that the very thing a dictionary is meant to eradicate?
Reference materials need to use correct terms, and clearly identify terms that are not. Take the battle of wills elsewhere; your obligation to present correct information to the public is more important. 91.132.202.96 ( talk) 01:01, 8 July 2008 (UTC)
The citation of the article by Dr. Edward Gobetz, under "Published works", should be removed because: (1) The article is a personal expression of opinion, not a serious treatment of the subject. It is not authoritative by any reasonable standard, and should not be cited as a Wikipedia reference. (2) The article was pasted into a Wikipedia talk page about the controversy, and can be found on the above-mentioned Archive 2. Surely the Wikipedia talk page is the proper place for this article, rather than as a citation. 24.178.228.14 ( talk) 18:02, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Nobody has or can come up with the 100% correct answer to this question. Both words are used in English and none of them is more correct. We already have a way to deal with these cases - use whatever the original author of the article used, and above all do not go around the articles correcting from one variant to another. This is the convention that applies to American vs British English, BC vs. BCE, etc. There is no reason to do anything else here. Zocky | picture popups 17:29, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
The consensus evident from the discussion above and confirmed at Talk:Slovenes and at Talk:Slovene language is that Slovene should be used for the language and ethnicity and Slovenian for people and things pertaining to Slovenia. -- Eleassar my talk 17:37, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
Changing the meaning of English words? Consensus of dictionaries? Please read the section 'This decision should be reversed' above (especially comments by Pasquale and Jalen who are both linguists). -- Eleassar my talk 18:17, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
You have missed the following comment by Jalen:
"I discussed the issue on Slovene vs. Slovenian with a couple of native-speaking English translators/proof readers from the afore-mentioned translation agency (Amidas). The explanation I got is that the adjective Slovenian should be used when referring to things, except for language and culture. The language should be called Slovene, never Slovenian. Slovenian indeed seems to be preferrable when referring to matters connected with Slovenia as nation state (politics, administration, economy etc., as in Slovenian Institute for Standardisation, Slovenian Business and Research Association.
As concerns ethnic designations, the distinction is quite straightforward. Slovene is the ethnic appellation while Slovenian could be used a collective term for citizens of Slovenia who are not necessarily ethnic Slovenes. For example, the Hungarians in the Prekmurje regions could be called Hungarian/Magyar Slovenians. A member of the Slovene minority in Carinthia or Italy would be called a Slovene but not Slovenian as he is not (presumably) a citizen of Slovenia."
-- Eleassar my talk 18:29, 20 April 2008 (UTC)
I may agree with you to not change every random occurrence of Slovenian to Slovene or vice versa, but when it comes to the naming of articles or presenting peoples or languages (like in the article Languages of the European Union) we should use the form that is given preference in the dictionaries and not the one that has been chosen randomly or even been pushed forward by some people who do not agree with the dictionaries. Otherwise that would constitute undue weight imo. -- Eleassar my talk 14:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)
Copied from my talk page. --
Eleassar
my talk
17:07, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
Hi, there is no denotational difference between Slovene and Slovenian (for things, nationality, ethnicity, language, nouns, adjectives, etc.) so I've updated the
Dragotin Cvetko and
Fran Ramovš pages to Slovene for consistency (but left the differential piping to "Slovenia" and "Slovenes"). I have no preference for either variant of the word. Thanks for your other changes.
Doremo (
talk)
11:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)
[[Slovenia]]n
is much simpler and evident than [[Slovenia|Slovene]]
, therefore more in line with
WP:LINKS that demands clear linking. --
Eleassar
my talk
12:38, 31 July 2012 (UTC)See Google n-grams that Slovene is more common in the present day. Or check the frequency of these forms at http://skell.sketchengine.co.uk/run.cgi/skell
Epheson ( talk) 09:07, 14 November 2016 (UTC)
I don't really care which is used as long as it is as consistent as possible... and since Slovenian is used more by people I'd use that.
Slovenia vs Slovenija - the international word usually used is Slovenia (although my passport/id card/drivers license all use Slovenija) but in the country Slovenija is the correct name. In practice it doesn't matter, you can use either as the country name when sending mail from other countries and it will arrive. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Benzo expert ( talk • contribs) 19:55, 9 April 2017 (UTC)
We are encouraged to keep internal consistency within articles: Naming conventions are not applicable to articles that use "Slovene" or "Slovenian" in the body text only. For these articles, either term is allowable, as long as its usage is consistent. However, the template IPA-sl makes this impossible, as it forces Slovene into articles which otherwise use, for the most part, Slovenian. (eg, in the article Tadej Pogačar, Slovenian is used throughout, except for the note on pronunciation of his name in the lead) Can this be remedied? Kevin McE ( talk) 09:59, 21 July 2021 (UTC)