This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I've been bold, remaned the page to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Mongolian), and declared it an official guideline. Let's hope it will be as useful as it is intended to be! -- Latebird 09:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The guidelines specify that, unlike with Russian, there are no special cases for "-ый" and "-ий". Does Mongolian even have these endings? Are they typical for adjectives as well? I am just curious. Thanks!— Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • ( yo?); 12:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Now that the guideine is in place, we'll have to move quite a few articles. The easiest way ist probably a step-by-step approach:
Caveats:
Happy renaming! -- Latebird 12:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The WikiProject Rivers is in conflict with the general naming conventions there, and I don't think their suggestion (it's nothing more) is a good idea. In contrast to that, the Wikipedia:Naming conventions are an official guideline, and they quite explicitly require to lowercase second and subsequent words in titles. In most situations, I don't see any justification to override that rule just for rivers, especially for foreign language names where the "River" part clearly isn't part of the proper name. I'm quite surprised that in at least two years, this non-standard "suggestion" has not triggered any bigger controversy. To be honest, I don't understand why rivers need "naming conventions" that are different from other geographical objects. -- Latebird 17:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems like many geographical features like "Mountain", "River", etc. are considered part of the proper name, and thus uppercased. Maybe this is obvious to a native english speaker, but it wasn't to me (in German, nouns are always in uppercase, so the question never comes up). -- Latebird 19:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Please add any obstructed move targets that you find here:
I've added a section about how people are normally named. This doesn't change anything but simply documents established practise (both in Mongolia and in WP). -- Latebird 10:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Latebird!
Dieser Kommentar gehört nicht wirklich hierher, aber ich weiß nicht, ob du Professor "Munkh-Amgalan" auf deiner Watchlist hast. Aber wenn du den Artikel schon überarbeitest, hättest du doch mal auf die Umschrift achten können. Der Name ist zwar nicht unproblematisch, weil in "Yumjiriin" das "Yu" als "Yü" realisiert wird (sonst müsste er "Yumjiryn" heißen), aber wenn wir eine einheitliche Umschrift für Kyrillisch Ю wollen, mag das so angemessen sein. Dann könntest du das im Text noch anpassen. Aber kein Problemfall ist, dass es nicht "Munkh-Amgalan" heißen sollte, sondern "Mönkh-Amgalan". Ich weiß aber nicht, wie man den Namen (und möglicherweise Verlinkungen dahin) eines Artikels ändert und möchte das also vertrauensvoll dir überlassen.
Liebe Grüße G Purevdorj 14:59, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
As I mentioned before, there has been some discussion about Aimag/Aimags/Aimguud, Sum/Sums/Sumuud Düreeg/Düreegs/Düüreguud, etc. This has led to the titles Aimag, Aimags of Mongolia, Sum (subnational entity), Sums of Mongolia, and Düüreg.
The question now is what to do with the individual aimag articles. In the (distant) past they have had names like aymag, Prefecture, and Province. As I understand, the root of the word Aimag (tribe) is not semantically equivalent to either prefecture or province (even if it technically plays the same role today).
I'd therefore prefer the form Arkhangai Aimag etc. There are quite a few precedents for this approach (eg. arrondissements, departments, cantons, woredas, fraziones, barangays, voivodeships, oblasts, okrugs, krais, comarcas, etc.). Is the upper case Aimag correct (part of the proper name) here?
I'm actually thinking of using Chingeltei Düüreg etc. in Ulan Bator as well. For the Sums, speciying Bulgan, Arkhangai seems most appropriate when there are duplicate names, or Bulgan (city) when it is the aimag capital.
Does this all make any sense? Or am I missing anything fundamental? -- Latebird 12:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
This looks like a toss-up between "use english names" vs. "use common names".
I've now checked with Google, and found that, on average, "aimag/aymag" is used roughly three times as much as "province" (results vary a lot by aimag and spelling, eg. "bulgan aimag" is used ten times as often as "bulgan province"). As to be expected, the slant in english language sources from Mongolia is even stronger. So there's clearly no danger that we would "bother" anyone by using the Mongolian terms, as those are commonly used. Most readers will likely search for the mongolian terms anyway, so there's no point in hiding them somewhere in the running text. Btw.: "Prefecture" is almost never used.
Mongolia is a somewhat unusual case because it has no colonial history, so there simply are no established or even official western terms. The Mongolian designator actually seems to be part of the proper name as well. In conversation, a Mongolian would rarely say just "Arkhangai", but rather "Arkhangai Aimag". All the same, I won't fight very hard about this. I'm just trying to get a well informed decision, and then we'll run with whatever it is. -- Latebird 16:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I assume that the word "raion" was introduced by the Russians. Apparently the Mongolians weren't happy with that (and as the originally french translation for "district", it's probably not appropriate for us either). Do you know when the switch happened? That would be interesting information for the article Düüreg. -- Latebird 12:54, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Since I can't see a clear-cut result of this discussion, and before it falls completely dormant, I went for the "minimally invasive" change. I fixed the transcription for all the aimags, but left the existing "Province" designator in place. If anyone thinks that Aimags of Mongolia, Sums of Mongolia, or Düüreg should be adapted to that, feel free to continue the debate. -- Latebird 11:52, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems that the diphtong Ю can represent both yu or yü, depending on vowel harmony. The obvious case is if a real у or ү follows in the same word. I'm not sure about the rules if only other vowels follow. Interestingly ,the question came up with Yumjiriin Munkh-Amgalan, where only the neutral и and й follow... Does anyone know exactly what is supposed to happen in all those situations? Should we keep the simple rule we have now, or is it necessary to introduce a special case here? -- Latebird 16:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that the same question may also affect Ё, with a possible need to distinguish between Yo and Yö. An example would be the Yosönbulag Sum, which in its current spelling looks like it violates the vowel harmony. -- Latebird 18:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Your first point is my error. Apparently I looked at the wrong line in the table when writing that. The entry should read "Е (е) becomes Ye (ye)" (BGN/PCGN has yö). Maybe you're correct about the second point, and I simplified too much in that case. I'll try to get more information about the issue, and wait for more input here as well. Fortunately, I don't think that the problem will come up very often, so it's not urgent to decide anything. -- Latebird 20:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
ий as a case suffix after any consonant but velar g aren’t neutral, but front vowel indicators. “neutral и” is somewhat of a simplification. Svantesson et al. (2005: 110): “Old Mongolian *i … is ignored by vowel harmony … If a word of this type does not contain a velar or uvular, the vowel harmony class can be determined if the suffix contains e/a or a velar/uvular. … Words which contain no other vowel than *i can be either front or back. … Unlike the case in Old Mongolian, Halh words with i as the only vowel always take non-pharyngeal [“front”] suffixes”. But while I could imagine a word contravening the rule Ëzhiki gives if ю is followed by i. It would have to be the rare case of a synchronically three-syllabic root morpheme. I am not aware of an actual example, and it is quite possible that such a case doesn’t exist. In the case of Yümjiriin, the rule applies, and contrary to what I wrote above, the main indicator probably was the first и.
Looks like I just keep confusing myself between Е and Ё. That should really be Yesönbulag according to our cuurent rules, so I slipped up with my recent rename... The grammar book I recently got tells me that Е is always front and Ё is always back. In other words, we don't need to worry about them in this context. But the Ю can really switch between back and front, so in that case we need to decide whether we care enough about vowel harmony to adapt to that. -- Latebird 23:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
I've been bold, remaned the page to Wikipedia:Naming conventions (Mongolian), and declared it an official guideline. Let's hope it will be as useful as it is intended to be! -- Latebird 09:15, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The guidelines specify that, unlike with Russian, there are no special cases for "-ый" and "-ий". Does Mongolian even have these endings? Are they typical for adjectives as well? I am just curious. Thanks!— Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • ( yo?); 12:25, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Now that the guideine is in place, we'll have to move quite a few articles. The easiest way ist probably a step-by-step approach:
Caveats:
Happy renaming! -- Latebird 12:39, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
The WikiProject Rivers is in conflict with the general naming conventions there, and I don't think their suggestion (it's nothing more) is a good idea. In contrast to that, the Wikipedia:Naming conventions are an official guideline, and they quite explicitly require to lowercase second and subsequent words in titles. In most situations, I don't see any justification to override that rule just for rivers, especially for foreign language names where the "River" part clearly isn't part of the proper name. I'm quite surprised that in at least two years, this non-standard "suggestion" has not triggered any bigger controversy. To be honest, I don't understand why rivers need "naming conventions" that are different from other geographical objects. -- Latebird 17:41, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems like many geographical features like "Mountain", "River", etc. are considered part of the proper name, and thus uppercased. Maybe this is obvious to a native english speaker, but it wasn't to me (in German, nouns are always in uppercase, so the question never comes up). -- Latebird 19:33, 16 March 2007 (UTC)
Please add any obstructed move targets that you find here:
I've added a section about how people are normally named. This doesn't change anything but simply documents established practise (both in Mongolia and in WP). -- Latebird 10:15, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Latebird!
Dieser Kommentar gehört nicht wirklich hierher, aber ich weiß nicht, ob du Professor "Munkh-Amgalan" auf deiner Watchlist hast. Aber wenn du den Artikel schon überarbeitest, hättest du doch mal auf die Umschrift achten können. Der Name ist zwar nicht unproblematisch, weil in "Yumjiriin" das "Yu" als "Yü" realisiert wird (sonst müsste er "Yumjiryn" heißen), aber wenn wir eine einheitliche Umschrift für Kyrillisch Ю wollen, mag das so angemessen sein. Dann könntest du das im Text noch anpassen. Aber kein Problemfall ist, dass es nicht "Munkh-Amgalan" heißen sollte, sondern "Mönkh-Amgalan". Ich weiß aber nicht, wie man den Namen (und möglicherweise Verlinkungen dahin) eines Artikels ändert und möchte das also vertrauensvoll dir überlassen.
Liebe Grüße G Purevdorj 14:59, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
As I mentioned before, there has been some discussion about Aimag/Aimags/Aimguud, Sum/Sums/Sumuud Düreeg/Düreegs/Düüreguud, etc. This has led to the titles Aimag, Aimags of Mongolia, Sum (subnational entity), Sums of Mongolia, and Düüreg.
The question now is what to do with the individual aimag articles. In the (distant) past they have had names like aymag, Prefecture, and Province. As I understand, the root of the word Aimag (tribe) is not semantically equivalent to either prefecture or province (even if it technically plays the same role today).
I'd therefore prefer the form Arkhangai Aimag etc. There are quite a few precedents for this approach (eg. arrondissements, departments, cantons, woredas, fraziones, barangays, voivodeships, oblasts, okrugs, krais, comarcas, etc.). Is the upper case Aimag correct (part of the proper name) here?
I'm actually thinking of using Chingeltei Düüreg etc. in Ulan Bator as well. For the Sums, speciying Bulgan, Arkhangai seems most appropriate when there are duplicate names, or Bulgan (city) when it is the aimag capital.
Does this all make any sense? Or am I missing anything fundamental? -- Latebird 12:48, 20 March 2007 (UTC)
This looks like a toss-up between "use english names" vs. "use common names".
I've now checked with Google, and found that, on average, "aimag/aymag" is used roughly three times as much as "province" (results vary a lot by aimag and spelling, eg. "bulgan aimag" is used ten times as often as "bulgan province"). As to be expected, the slant in english language sources from Mongolia is even stronger. So there's clearly no danger that we would "bother" anyone by using the Mongolian terms, as those are commonly used. Most readers will likely search for the mongolian terms anyway, so there's no point in hiding them somewhere in the running text. Btw.: "Prefecture" is almost never used.
Mongolia is a somewhat unusual case because it has no colonial history, so there simply are no established or even official western terms. The Mongolian designator actually seems to be part of the proper name as well. In conversation, a Mongolian would rarely say just "Arkhangai", but rather "Arkhangai Aimag". All the same, I won't fight very hard about this. I'm just trying to get a well informed decision, and then we'll run with whatever it is. -- Latebird 16:04, 21 March 2007 (UTC)
I assume that the word "raion" was introduced by the Russians. Apparently the Mongolians weren't happy with that (and as the originally french translation for "district", it's probably not appropriate for us either). Do you know when the switch happened? That would be interesting information for the article Düüreg. -- Latebird 12:54, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Since I can't see a clear-cut result of this discussion, and before it falls completely dormant, I went for the "minimally invasive" change. I fixed the transcription for all the aimags, but left the existing "Province" designator in place. If anyone thinks that Aimags of Mongolia, Sums of Mongolia, or Düüreg should be adapted to that, feel free to continue the debate. -- Latebird 11:52, 24 March 2007 (UTC)
It seems that the diphtong Ю can represent both yu or yü, depending on vowel harmony. The obvious case is if a real у or ү follows in the same word. I'm not sure about the rules if only other vowels follow. Interestingly ,the question came up with Yumjiriin Munkh-Amgalan, where only the neutral и and й follow... Does anyone know exactly what is supposed to happen in all those situations? Should we keep the simple rule we have now, or is it necessary to introduce a special case here? -- Latebird 16:46, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
I think that the same question may also affect Ё, with a possible need to distinguish between Yo and Yö. An example would be the Yosönbulag Sum, which in its current spelling looks like it violates the vowel harmony. -- Latebird 18:41, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
Your first point is my error. Apparently I looked at the wrong line in the table when writing that. The entry should read "Е (е) becomes Ye (ye)" (BGN/PCGN has yö). Maybe you're correct about the second point, and I simplified too much in that case. I'll try to get more information about the issue, and wait for more input here as well. Fortunately, I don't think that the problem will come up very often, so it's not urgent to decide anything. -- Latebird 20:29, 27 March 2007 (UTC)
ий as a case suffix after any consonant but velar g aren’t neutral, but front vowel indicators. “neutral и” is somewhat of a simplification. Svantesson et al. (2005: 110): “Old Mongolian *i … is ignored by vowel harmony … If a word of this type does not contain a velar or uvular, the vowel harmony class can be determined if the suffix contains e/a or a velar/uvular. … Words which contain no other vowel than *i can be either front or back. … Unlike the case in Old Mongolian, Halh words with i as the only vowel always take non-pharyngeal [“front”] suffixes”. But while I could imagine a word contravening the rule Ëzhiki gives if ю is followed by i. It would have to be the rare case of a synchronically three-syllabic root morpheme. I am not aware of an actual example, and it is quite possible that such a case doesn’t exist. In the case of Yümjiriin, the rule applies, and contrary to what I wrote above, the main indicator probably was the first и.
Looks like I just keep confusing myself between Е and Ё. That should really be Yesönbulag according to our cuurent rules, so I slipped up with my recent rename... The grammar book I recently got tells me that Е is always front and Ё is always back. In other words, we don't need to worry about them in this context. But the Ю can really switch between back and front, so in that case we need to decide whether we care enough about vowel harmony to adapt to that. -- Latebird 23:55, 27 March 2007 (UTC)