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The Tien-tsin and Nanking treaties article were recently relocated to Tianjin and Nanjing. (A meaningless edit was made with the latter one to prevent it from moving back.) These treaties involved not only China. They were signed in both Chinese and English (and for the former, in various other languages too). The names of these treaties were adopted into English as Tien-tsin and Nanking. The name change of the cities should have no effect on the names of these treaties. Michael G. Davis 17:46, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Can we find photocopied versions of both the treaties? That's the best way to verify if those treaties are actually called "Treaty of Nanking" and "Treaty of Tien-tsin" on the documents themselves. We need to differentiate between the documents actually using those titles, and those titles having been perpetuated by secondary sources on the simple basis that those treaties were signed at cities that were called "Nanking" and "Tien-tsin" at the time. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 15:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
To quote the current guideline: There should be no space between the first and second given names. There are suitations when two pinyin syllables are joined together, they become ambiguous, for example jingao can be jing ao or jin gao; xian can be xian or xi an. The pinyin convention adds a ' symbol to resolve ambiguity, for example, jin'gao vs jing'ao. When using Wade-Giles, a dash should be put between the first and last given names, and the second given name should not be capitalised. (for example, Lee Teng-hui, not Lee Teng Hui)
I have never thought of a Chinese given name as being two names. Surely it's one name that may be composed of two separate Chinese characters? For example, Lee Teng-hui would never be referred to as Lee Teng in the way that western people commonly use only one forename. The characters "teng" and "hui" form a two-syllable name.
I suggest the following alterations:
There should be no space between the first and second syllables of a given name
When using Wade-Giles, a dash should be put between the two syllables of a given name, and the second syllable should not be capitalised.
JRawle (
Talk)
22:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
The encyclopedia should reference the name more familiar to most English readers. For most historical figures this means that the encyclopedia entry should reference the Chinese name (romanized in Hanyu pinyin) rather than the English name, with a redirect from the English name. However, there are exceptions for figures whose English name is more familiar (such as Confucius) and for figures who were raised in non-Chinese societies and whose Chinese names are unfamiliar (such as Vera Wang and Maya Lin).
Personal names in Chinese, unlike Western names, present the family/clan name first. Unlike other instances where this occurs, it is standard practice in English to also present the family name first (for example, Mao Zedong, Deng Xiaoping).
There is an exemption for people whose Chinese name is familiar but with English ordering (for example, Wen Ho Lee). In this case, the primary entry should be under the English ordering with a redirect from the Chinese ordering.
Chinese names should be written in Hanyu Pinyin unless there is a more common romanization used in English (for example, Chiang Kai-shek, Sun Yat-sen) or when the subject of the article is likely to prefer a non-pinyin romanization as is often the case with people from Taiwan, Hong Kong, and overseas Chinese communities (for example, Lee Teng-hui, Tung Chee Hwa).
When using pinyin for a Chinese name, pinyin spacing and capitalization conventions should be used. This includes keeping the family name separate and the given name capitalized. Some given names have only one syllable (for example, Li Yong). Many have more than one syllable, but the different syllables are never indicated by spacing, hyphenization, or capitalization. There should be no space between the first and second syllables of a given name , (for example, Jiang Zemin).
However, there are two exceptions to avoid ambiguity. Sometimes it is necessary to show whether the name has one syllable or two (e.g. xian can be xian or xi an). Sometimes it is necessary to show where the syllable break lies (e.g. jingao can be jing ao or jin gao). In both cases, the pinyin convention adds a ' symbol to resolve ambiguity, for example, jin'gao vs jing'ao.
When using Wade-Giles, a dash should be put between the two syllables of a given name, and the second syllable should not be capitalised (for example, Lee Teng-hui, not Lee Teng Hui).
Hy, I had a long and exausting debate about the name China inside of Talk:China. That article is about the Chinese civilization (and not about "China" as everybody understands it: the present country - de facto the PROC), and I propose that we move that article towards that name (i.e.:Chinese civilization). Following that, I propose that we move the current "PROC" - article towards China. To finish it we should also move the "ROC" - article towards Taiwan. This is IMHO the overwhelming view and use of all these names in the English-speaking world.
My reasons for this are the following:
Almost all "country-articles" in Wikipedia use the common name of a country. This is not the case of "China" (i.e.: the PROC). This should be changed.
While the precise status of Taiwan is debatable, this issue can be easily explained (I would write: "de jure unrecogized, but de facto independent country searching for wider international recognition" - or something similar).
Many won't like it but it is simply the truth: in the English-speaking world the PROC is simply recognized and named as "China". The ROC is simply recognized as "Taiwan". Wikipedia should follow this (trend?, fact?, truth?, reality?, rule?). To use the NPOV-rule is IMHO a very poor excuse. Since when is being fair and being accurate POV? Flamarande 13:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I disagree, because:
What you might consider as fair and accurate will in the end on serve to push one, maybe two, POVs which is a big no-no at Wikipedia. And I want to remind you that NPOV is one of Wikipedia's core values. nat t a n g 01:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
This proposal wouldn't be relevant if we adopted the proposal for the disambiguation page, as suggested on Talk:China. I'd suggest resolving that question first. If China turns into a disambiguation page (like America), then leaving People's Republic of China and Republic of China where they are would seem to be the most practical solution. -- Folic Acid 03:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
All the instances cited here relate to modern politics and media. When I want to eat Chinese food, admire Chinese paintings, climb China's sacred peaks, talk about how the Mongols invaded China, or note that many immigrants in California are of Chinese ancestry, am I referring to the PRC? Absolutely not. Or possibly. The thing is that in many instances the PRC (or any modern political entity) is completely irrelevant, so it's not as clear cut as it has been portrayed here. We have PRC at its own location for the same reason we have Republic of Ireland and Republic of Macedonia (both involved in similar territorial disputes on whether the political entity encompasses the historical/cultural entity).-- Jiang 08:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Flamarande: The problem is that people (sometimes the same person) use "China" to mean different things. When people refer to "China" (in the modern context) they can mean (notice I don't define PRC here) "mainland China", "mainland China, Hong Kong, and Macau", or "mainland China, Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan". Even the CIA World Factbook is confused: it posts a map including Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan under its "China" entry but proceeds to list economic and demographic data that excludes these regions. The Hong Kong entry is clearly inconsistent too: it states that "Hong Kong became the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) of China on 1 July 1997" but then says it is "bordering the South China Sea and China" (how can you border something you are part of?). So no, when you and I are talking about China, even in modern context (which does not describe most links pointing to the China article), we are not necessarily referring to the People's Republic of China in its entirety (and we would have to agree on what constitutes the People's Republic of China in its entirety in the first place).
But this is besides the point. When you and I are talking about China, whether the PRC is relevant depends on context. If it is about politics, then yes, it is relevant. If it is about the stuff we bother to mention in the current China article, then no, it is not relevant. I fail to see the connection. The beauty of Wikipedia is that m:wiki is not a paper. We can afford to explain the difference between the "Republic of China" and "Taiwan" and the "People's Republic of China" and "China" where print encyclopedias could not afford separate articles for similar entities. Unlike news articles, we don't need to simplify facts and situations for our audience - we can explain them in their entirety. How do we best educate people? I think the current setup best accomplishes this.-- Jiang 01:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
All these comparisons are extremely faulty in their own rights. This is equivalent to having an article like "United States civilization" on chinese wikipedia because too many people say America, USA, US, United States of America, and no one in the Far East can decide on what's the best name. So let's just move it to a civilization page, and have the disembig page be the default. There is nothing more bizarre than saying Confucius lives in [[China Civilization|China]]. Is obvious that "China" is the name of the country. Why are we still trying to come up with replacements. Benjwong 00:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I read the above. I think you guys are still trying to make a move without knowing "why". Are users really confused by the name "China"? Shouldn't we be moving France, since they have an even longer disembig page, and may lead to even more confusion. Benjwong 03:24, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I think what started as one proposal under good faith by Flamarande has since spiral into too many different scattered proposals. Because this can be time consuming, I am trying to see what the goal is still? We don't necessarily have to change anything. People are ok with a hot topic. But what is not okay is killing hours for some unknown purpose. Benjwong 04:36, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Look Aug, I never thought that the propossed moves would recieve major opposition (had I known...I probably would never presented them). So let me ask you something: When you talk about "China" as in "I want to travel to China." about which country are you talking about? The PROC, none other. That's a fact, simple as that. When talking about Taiwan everybody means the ROC. When you are talking about the Chinese civilization you're talking the "Chinese civilization". You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. This standard is followed in almost all country-articles. The only thing I think is that these articles (China, Taiwan, Chinese civilization) should truly be about "China", "Taiwan", and "Chinese civilization". Proper paragraphs can explain further historical/civilization meaning of this word and this seem to work splendidly in all the other country-articles. Is China such a truly unique case? Can't we compare China with France (or Iraq, Egypt, etc), as an example? I think that these reasons plus the 9 points are enough reasons Why we should make the "moves".
The other side presents all these arguments (comparing them with Ireland, FYROM, North and South Korea), saying that the name "China" is ambigious, that the moves would require too much work, that in Chinese there are terms like "mainland China", that the propossed moves are the same as taking sides with the PROC, implied that if we make the moves the PROC could block Wikipedia even further, etc ... But take a look at my 9 points (and the evidence I collected); were they rejected in anyway (along with evidence)? No, instead of showing that they are wrong or false the opposition fully avoid them. IMHO they don't have a case, and they know it, and they are just being stuborn. They want to ride out the storm agin, again, and again and block out the outside reality. Wikipedia claims to be a encyclopedia, but it isn't because true encyclopedias don't have or use the NPOV excuse. They rather explain the issue. Seriously, grab your geographic encyclopedia at home, flip it up at "China", and what will you find? The PROC, nothing else, alongside a good resume of Chinese history (with a proper Nationalist China paragraph). You know it, I know it, everybody knows it, but Wikipedia doesn't seem to know it. I vote that we make the moves and I rest my case. I have further articles to improve. Flamarande 14:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
First, I fail to see how we are "inventing names as a means of compromising between opposing POVs". "China" the country/civilization and "China" the sovereign state are not mutually exclusive entities. None of what is currently located at "China" is in the least bit made invalid by the existence of the PRC. Second, the current setup merely serves different contexts, not different POVs. A POV fork implies that the articles themselves are written according to different political slants on the basis of the name used: this is not the case. The China article is not anti-PRC and the PRC article is not pro-PRC. How is this a POV fork? This is a matter of accuracy more than it is a matter of compromise. Third, by claiming that we are "denying to place the People's Republic of China article at China" (as if it where entitled to it by virtue of existence) we are reducing ourselves to nationalist/legalist/moralistic arguments that Wikipedia:Naming conflict explicitly tells us to avoid. The accusations being made here specifically against certain Wikipedia editors evokes the subjective question "Is the use of the name politically unacceptable?". That is not a question to ask. Whether the current setup is the work of the KMT supporters is irrelevant. Argue facts, not personalities. We don't care who is behind this, and nor should we make the assumption that anyone supporting the current setup supports the KMT. How is the current setup POV? In what ways would the PRC object to our content?
I think STC points out a contradiction in the naming conventions between the "use common names" rule and the " avoid ambiguity" rule that is not sufficiently addressed by Wikipedia:Naming conflict.
Be precise when necessary; don't title articles ambiguously when the title has other meanings. As stated above with my example of the CIA world factbook being inconsistent, there is ambiguity involved with the term "China". While China often means PRC, it also means mainland China or what the PRC claims to be the PRC (note these are likely extremes). Moreover, Wikipedia:Naming conflict calls for disambiguation to be used when "A name used by one entity may well clash with a name used by another entity." This implies that there is sanction for separate articles. So whether some other country also calls itself China is not irrelevant. And whether there are other things named China (like pottery) is also not irrelevant. As stated, when ambiguity persists, we can only determine things on a case-by-case basis.
Lastly, in suggesting that we introduce terms at a greater precision than the news media, I am not suggesting that we push specialist terms. If there is ambiguity or potential misunderstanding (eg use of "Republic of China" in contemporary context), then we have to introduct it in a less confusing way (eg insert Taiwan in parenthesis). But this pertains to the text within articles, not what we name them. If there is a name more accurate than another, we go by the more accurate name. If the meanings can significantly differ, we create separate articles. Other encyclopedias cannot afford this. Other encyclopedias do not also have to deal with millions on context-dependent links that magnify any inherent precision or imprecision present in article names in content. On the same note, the PRC isnt what our reader reading about Chinese calligraphy came to find either. The links already reflect this. -- Jiang 03:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
We are talking about the location of the article, not the text within the article. The lead of the PRC article is supposed to be NPOV, and I think it succeeds in this task. But the claim being made here is that, because this body of text is titled "People's Republic of China" instead of "China", it is somehow POV? I don't see how. Calling the article "Red China" or even "Communist China" would be POV, but calling it "People's Republic of China" (what it calls itself) is not.
I still don't see the validity of the six points being forwarded as justification for renaming. Just because the text in the article fairly describes any political dispute does not make the equation China->PRC (note I didn't write PRC->China) always true.-- Jiang 10:07, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
One question that doesn't seem to be addressed here is: Why is China the only country who should get an article on its civilisation? You don't find pages on Indian civilization and Greek civilization, although you do find Western civilization and Persian civilization -- which are redirects to Western culture and Culture of Iran. There is also an article on Culture of China. I'm just wondering, why is China so special that people want to give it an article on Chinese civilisation? Is it because there is something peculiarly wonderful or special about China and its civilisation? Or is it simply because the political controversy surrounding the modern state (PRC) makes it impossible to set up a page that is entitled simply "China"? Bathrobe 08:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes Flamarande 14:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
OK. Whether it's democracy or not. I think I have read all the points stated by User:Flamarande and already gave a full consideration of his points. Based on my understanding of his proposal, I would disagree with the proposal that User:Flamarande made. Due to my time restriction, I may not be able to join and follow all the possible discussion/vote on this issue. In case that happens for the same categories of discussion, please count my vote of disgreement on the move of article "China". Thanks, Augest 03:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I think it is necessary to start this discussion again, because I think this is very important. My English-speaking skill is limited so forgive me if you cannot understand some of the things that I'm trying to explain.
The common name naming conventions state that "Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." And I believe the Chinese naming conventions aren't quiet accepted by everyone, and I don't think they are treated with common sense. In short, I believe the Chinese conventions should be more standardized with the common name conventions on this issue.
I believe that the following moves/merges would be done if we only follow the common name naming conventions (which we should do):
There would be a lot more minor moves, these are just the major ones.-- Jerry 22:13, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
We've responded to DownUnder555 on many occasions and at length. The problem we have is that we have essentially separate regimes going under the same names. There's a somewhat clear succession of governments, but a less clear succession of states. From 1912 to 1928 we have a continuous political entity, and from 1927 to the present we have another. But then, territorially speaking, the political entity extends from 1912 to 1949 only. It's just so messy that we can't simply create countries templates for Warlord vs. Nationalist China in the way we can separate Zaire from the Democratic Republic of the Congo. So I really don't see how moving "History of the Republic of China" to "Republican China" accomplishes anything. "Republican China" is a historical era label, not the name of a state, so simply tacking on a template under that name is inadequate.
I'm not convinced of the benefits of the last two changes. Why lose precision when we can afford to have it?-- Jiang 23:45, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure if it will NPOV to move ROC post-1947 to Taiwan, as Taiwan does not offically change the name of their country/state yet. Again, it's not just a UN thing. As I pointed out before, Taiwan had a seat in UN until sometime in 70's. Do we want to change the offical state name of Taiwan in Wikipedia even before Taiwan change it itself? Not mention PRC still claims Taiwan as part of China. So we choose to ignore the claim of PRC and help Taiwai to change its offical country/state name... Augest 01:26, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Flamarande made some good proposals in the Talk:China discussion page. They seem to be meeting some resistence, but the problems they would solve are still ongoing. No one seems to be able to say what "China" is. The map is impossible to draw because it is different depending on the definition of "China" that is used. The article has many places that show a strong POV that Taiwan is part of China, however it is difficult show exactly why that is a problem or propose a better wording when I can't figure out what the article is about. There seem to be claims that the article is about "Chinese civilization", yet the discussions center around Chinese politics. Readin ( talk) 05:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
2) Larry Sanger's argument is IMHO a red herring: We also do not always mean the French Republic when we say "France" (e.g.: France built the Arc de Triomphe but the French Republic didn't). This aplies to all countries.
I posted this at the "history standards" talk page, but nobody has responded, so I thought I'd try it here. Emperor X of Y is a terrible naming convention for Chinese emperors, particularly when it means using weird name forms that are never used in English. Han Wudi is much more often called "Wudi" than just "Wu", and Han Wudi is a much simpler and more natural name form than Emperor Wu of Han. I'd much prefer forms like Han Wudi or Tang Taizong to the current form. At the very least, I'd propose dropping the "Emperor" and bringing it back in to the posthumous forms, when necessary. E.g. Wudi of Han and Yangdi of Sui (and Taizong of Tang), instead of Emperor Wu of Han, Emperor Yang of Sui (and Emperor Taizong of Tang). john k ( talk) 14:35, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
"Emperor X of Y" is inelegant, but it's less confusing than "Y Xdi," in that a non-Chinese speaking person would not easily be able to tell "di" as "emperor," and so, yes, I do object, and I object strongly, to, for example, changing "Emperor Wu of Han" to "Han Wudi." Same for, for example, "Tang Taizong" -- it looks very much to the naked eye to be a person with the family name Tang and the personal name Taizong.
What I would not object to, but I'd like to hear more discussion on, is changing to personal names entirely -- Liu Che, for example. (The Chinese Wikipedia articles are already largely, although not consistently, using personal names.) This also avoids inconsistencies across dynasties, although it does present unique problems for Yuan Dynasty and Qing Dynasty emperors. ( Aixinjueluo Fulin might not be a particularly good way to refer to Shunzhi Emperor, for example, although I do not like the current title either.) -- Nlu ( talk) 19:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I noticed there was a user recently who moved a bunch of articles about 镇-level governments in China from "X" to "X Town", citing this naming convention as justification. It's true that it does currently give "X Town" as an option for disambiguation. Is this really a good iidea? The formation "Somethingthing Town" sounds very awkward in English. Wouldn't [X (town)] be a better option, at least in the case of places that can reasonably be described as actual towns? In some of these cases, I'm not really sure why they need to be disambiguated at all ... they could just stay at "X".— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 05:48, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry about opening this can of worms again, but because of my recent dispute with another user on this, not only I learned for the first time this policy exists, but also I found it somewhat misleading.
On the "Taiwan" usage as a geographic location (the third column), I proposed we change the "PLACE COMMA Taiwan" to "PLACE in Taiwan" because the "PLACE COMMA Taiwan" format can be interpreted in a political context, while "PLACE in Taiwan" leaves no doubt that "Taiwan" is used in a geographic context, i.e. "located in Taipei City in Taiwan" or "located in Kaohsiung City in Taiwan". -- Will74205 ( talk) 00:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I completely disagree. In the geographical context, Taiwan is always referred to as "Taiwan" - it isn't political at all to say "Taipei, Taiwan". It's much more natural to keep the current format. John Smith's ( talk) 10:02, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
If we wanted to be politically neutral, we would simply recognize the government controlling the area and call it "PLACE, Republic of China". However we don't want to offend anyone so let's ask, "if you were sending a letter there, where would you send it to?" Of the addresses that would work (PLACE, Taiwan) or (PLACE, ROC) or (PLACE, Republic of China) or (PLACE, Republic of China (Taiwan)), simply (PLACE, Taiwan) seems the most understandable to English speakers and the least likely to offend. Readin ( talk) 18:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
We need to be clear on what we mean by "Taiwan":
We are not fully consistent with the island. I think, that in formulating the current policy, we failed to account for some redundancy. At Songshan Domestic Airport we had a dispute over whether to say that the airport is in "Songshan District, Taipei City, Republic of China in northern Taiwan" or in "Songshan District, Taipei City, Taiwan". The former, IMO, is unquestionably more informative than the latter and should be the preferred format.
As a string of political divisions, the current guidelines sanction the use of "Republic of China" in the form "Taipei County, Taiwan Province, Republic of China". In the same way, when we are explicitly referring to administrative heirarchy, "Songshan District, Taipei City, Republic of China" should be permitted. Otherwise, District, City, and Republic of China all have to disappear at once (and why provide less when we have room for more?).-- Jiang ( talk) 07:35, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm saying that the ability to interpret "PLACE, Taiwan" is more of a strength than a weakness. If we were defining "Taiwan", we wouldn't want ambiguity. If we were writing about Taiwan's political status, we would want to avoid ambiguity. But we're not providing information about Taiwan, we're providing the location of a place, and saying "PLACE, Taiwan" provides the same information no matter how you interpret it. This is a strength because it allows people to interpret it in the manner least offensive to them. Readin ( talk) 16:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
After some thinking, I found that the only place where I have concerns in the current policy was that the current policy doesn't take into account for the special status of Taipei City and Kaohsiung City. The reason is that in the third column, the "PLACE, Taiwan" format is correct for all other cities and towns in both geographic and political division context, while "Kaohsiung City, Taiwan" or "Taipei City, Taiwan" format is incorrect in political division context because they are not part of any political division named Taiwan. My reason for respecting the correct political division is that "PLACE, Taiwan" format cannot avoid being interpreted politically, and this format, as in other articles, usually reserve for "PLACE, ONE-LEVEL-UP POLITICAL DIVISION". So I proposed the following change (change in Red) so to include the correct political division hierarchy with respect to its location in Taiwan:
Republic of China or ROC | Either Republic of China (Taiwan) or Taiwan ( Republic of China) | Taiwan | Taiwan Province |
---|---|---|---|
|
|
|
|
-- Will74205 ( talk) 23:29, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
My opinion on Will74205's proposal is this -- it's necessary for accuracy's sake for something like this, because as it stands, "Taipei, Taiwan" and "Kaohsiung, Taiwan" are both factually incorrect in that these cities are not parts of Taiwan Province. It would be analogous to "Washington, Maryland" (which is arguably geographically correct in that Washington D.C. was carved out of Maryland) but certainly not factually correct. However, my proposed alternative to Will74205's proposal would be to use "Taipei, Republic of China (Taiwan)" and "Kaohsiung, Republic of China (Taiwan)." -- Nlu ( talk) 05:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Will74205, it does not look like there will be a consensus on this as it stands, and therefore I think it might be wise to close the discussion, unless you want to consider trying to get more comments on this by filing a RfC. -- Nlu ( talk) 09:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I think this calls for a clarification of the existing guidelines. Under Taiwan Province it states that the term should be used "When referring to a specific location within the formal administrative hierarchy". This rule should also apply to "Republic of China" as it is also a almost exclusively political (rather than geographical/cultural) term. In the same way "county, Taiwan Province" is acceptable under current guidelines, "Taipei, Republic of China" and "Kaohsiung, Republic of China" should be acceptable when "referring to a [district or city] within the formal administrative hierarchy".-- Jiang ( talk) 23:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
The last bullet point in the Taiwan Province column can be copied verbatim into the Republic of China column. The example even has "Republic of China" already linked in it.-- Jiang ( talk) 20:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
The disambiguation guide currently gives "X City" as option for disambiguating the names of "cities" (i.e. Jilin City and Huangshan City). "Cities" seems to include various types of local governments, among them the 地级市 (dìjí shì, prefecture-level city). Now, I agree that the form "X City" is a more palatable phrase in English than "X Town" is—at least, it is, when the thing referred to, X, is a city. The problem, though, is that many dìjí shì in Mainland China are actually not cities. As the article prefecture-level city says, "A prefecture-level city is not a 'city' in the strictest sense of the term, but instead an administrative unit comprising, typically, both an urban core (a city in the strict sense) and surrounding rural or less-urbanized areas usually many times the size of the central, built-up core." Usually, a dìjí shì is at least named after a city or town in it, but "Huangshan City" is an example of one that is not—it is named after a tourist site instead. So, it seems like there will be a lot of cases where it is misleading and confusing to give an article a title with "City" in it. "X (city)" is even worse, because then we give the impression that the narrator is saying that this thing is a city (just as Vatican City is fine but Vatican (city) would be quite wrong). I'm not sure what a better solution is, though. I moved Huangshan (city) to Huangshan (shi), where it stayed for about six months before it got moved back, but I can understand that would be objections to X (shi).— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 00:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
User:SchmuckyTheCat recently removed:
Although the use of the term " Manchuria" is considered by some to be somewhat objectionable when used in Chinese, it is largely considered a non-political and non-objectionable term when used in English.
In explanation he said:
Republic of China, Taiwan, and variations thereof - remove useless sentence. nobody uses Manchuria in modern english. anyways, as a suggestion it's prescriptive
I still use "Manchuria". If the term is no longer used in modern English, what is the term in use these days? What is meant by "as a suggestion it's prescriptive"? Readin ( talk) 20:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I've never heard of "Manchuria" being used to refer to all of China. I'll look at the context and see if that was implied. Readin ( talk) 21:52, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
If someone has ever heard "Manchuria" being used to refer to all of China than the context certainly fits with your interpretation that such a usage was being condoned. I'll leave it out mainly because I don't know enough about that usage nor enough about Chinese sensitivities regarding the word for me to write something accurate and useful. Readin ( talk) 21:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
This discussion seems to have drawn to an end. In summary,
SchmuckyTheCat made a good-faith edit, and has had the good grace to admit it was based on a misunderstanding. The discussion stalled on whether the term is controversial.
This summer 2007 dispute makes it very clear that it is. However, this sentence has been in the convention since the very first draft, way back in 2003, which indicates some degree of consensus.
So do we have a consensus to restore the Manchuria naming convention? Matt's talk 04:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
User:SchmuckyTheCat recently removed reference to the word "Hakka" on the grounds that no one knows the work Hakka in English. I find it hard to accept this reasoning. People who have no knowledge of Chinese ethnic groups obviously don't know the name Hakka. People who've come into the field of Chinese studies and suddenly discover, possibly via Mandarin, that there is a group called the 客家 Kèjiā are obviously to be congratulated on broadening their knowledge. But if such people lack general knowledge and haven't read much in English about China, is that a good reason for saying that "nobody knows the word Hakka"? The word is out there; it's known by anybody who's done any reading about Chinese culture or customs. Not knowing the name Hakka is actually pretty unforgivable for anyone who considers him/herself to have any knowledge of China. As for people with no acquaintance of Chinese studies and don't know the name Hakka, these are the same sort of people who've never heard of Karens, Igbos, or Afars. Is that really a good basis for deciding that the name should disappear from Wikipedia? Bathrobe ( talk) 03:12, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I have been editing/creating a number of Tang Dynasty articles, and I am almost at a stage where I'm getting into mid/late Tang Dynasty, when the offices of jiedushi were created and became prominent. The current usage of jiedushi in articles are a bit ambiguous and confusing, and I think some clarification/disambiguation in usage is required. This is what I currently propose:
Thoughts? -- Nlu ( talk) 20:58, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
See Talk:Ume#Requested move. Badagnani ( talk) 04:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
In light of the new Republic of China regime, Wikipedia needs to re-evaluate the naming conventions. Beautiful Formosa ( talk) 06:39, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Interesting discussion at Talk:Xinhua Lu Stadium#Requested move on a requested rename from Xinhua Lu Stadium to Xinhualu Stadium. No consensus was reached. I have suggested that further discussion might take place here:
I can argue it either way in terms of:
So, I'd be happy for either convention to be adopted. Perhaps a slight preference for removing the blanks. But either seems acceptable, and either will save us time in the future, time that can then be spent on improving articles. Other comments? Andrewa ( talk) 16:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Hanyu Pinyin is one of the standards promoted in Taiwan. Taiwanese people and place names are often referred to using Hanyu Pinyin as it is the most studied and used romanization method for Chinese words. Should Wikipedia provide at least alternative Hanyu Pinyin names next to the traditional names for convenience? -- Atitarev ( talk) 06:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
In contrast to the naming convention regarding Western names, the Chinese conventions are to put the family name first and the given name second. But what to do with the many Wikipedia biographies about Chinese people from Hong Kong? A lot of them also use Western forenames. For example: Rita Fan, which the full name in the lead was stated as Rita Fan Hsu Lai-tai. This is confusing, because a Westerner can think that her given name is "Rita" and here family name "Fan Hsu Lai-tai". But I think that her family name is "Fan", her given name "Hsu Lai-tai", and she also has a popular name or Christian name "Rita". I tried to fix this problem by putting the name Rita between quotation marks, thereby getting the following result in the lead: "Rita" Fan Hsu Lai-tai. The same I did with the name in the lead of the biography of Andrew Wong: "Andrew" Wong Wang Fat. According to WP:MOSBIO, popular names can be put between quotation marks.
Can someone please give advice whether this is correct? Thanks, Demophon ( talk) 08:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 5 | ← | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 | Archive 11 | → | Archive 14 |
The Tien-tsin and Nanking treaties article were recently relocated to Tianjin and Nanjing. (A meaningless edit was made with the latter one to prevent it from moving back.) These treaties involved not only China. They were signed in both Chinese and English (and for the former, in various other languages too). The names of these treaties were adopted into English as Tien-tsin and Nanking. The name change of the cities should have no effect on the names of these treaties. Michael G. Davis 17:46, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Can we find photocopied versions of both the treaties? That's the best way to verify if those treaties are actually called "Treaty of Nanking" and "Treaty of Tien-tsin" on the documents themselves. We need to differentiate between the documents actually using those titles, and those titles having been perpetuated by secondary sources on the simple basis that those treaties were signed at cities that were called "Nanking" and "Tien-tsin" at the time. Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 15:34, 7 August 2007 (UTC)
To quote the current guideline: There should be no space between the first and second given names. There are suitations when two pinyin syllables are joined together, they become ambiguous, for example jingao can be jing ao or jin gao; xian can be xian or xi an. The pinyin convention adds a ' symbol to resolve ambiguity, for example, jin'gao vs jing'ao. When using Wade-Giles, a dash should be put between the first and last given names, and the second given name should not be capitalised. (for example, Lee Teng-hui, not Lee Teng Hui)
I have never thought of a Chinese given name as being two names. Surely it's one name that may be composed of two separate Chinese characters? For example, Lee Teng-hui would never be referred to as Lee Teng in the way that western people commonly use only one forename. The characters "teng" and "hui" form a two-syllable name.
I suggest the following alterations:
There should be no space between the first and second syllables of a given name
When using Wade-Giles, a dash should be put between the two syllables of a given name, and the second syllable should not be capitalised.
JRawle (
Talk)
22:00, 27 July 2007 (UTC)
The encyclopedia should reference the name more familiar to most English readers. For most historical figures this means that the encyclopedia entry should reference the Chinese name (romanized in Hanyu pinyin) rather than the English name, with a redirect from the English name. However, there are exceptions for figures whose English name is more familiar (such as Confucius) and for figures who were raised in non-Chinese societies and whose Chinese names are unfamiliar (such as Vera Wang and Maya Lin).
Personal names in Chinese, unlike Western names, present the family/clan name first. Unlike other instances where this occurs, it is standard practice in English to also present the family name first (for example, Mao Zedong, Deng Xiaoping).
There is an exemption for people whose Chinese name is familiar but with English ordering (for example, Wen Ho Lee). In this case, the primary entry should be under the English ordering with a redirect from the Chinese ordering.
Chinese names should be written in Hanyu Pinyin unless there is a more common romanization used in English (for example, Chiang Kai-shek, Sun Yat-sen) or when the subject of the article is likely to prefer a non-pinyin romanization as is often the case with people from Taiwan, Hong Kong, and overseas Chinese communities (for example, Lee Teng-hui, Tung Chee Hwa).
When using pinyin for a Chinese name, pinyin spacing and capitalization conventions should be used. This includes keeping the family name separate and the given name capitalized. Some given names have only one syllable (for example, Li Yong). Many have more than one syllable, but the different syllables are never indicated by spacing, hyphenization, or capitalization. There should be no space between the first and second syllables of a given name , (for example, Jiang Zemin).
However, there are two exceptions to avoid ambiguity. Sometimes it is necessary to show whether the name has one syllable or two (e.g. xian can be xian or xi an). Sometimes it is necessary to show where the syllable break lies (e.g. jingao can be jing ao or jin gao). In both cases, the pinyin convention adds a ' symbol to resolve ambiguity, for example, jin'gao vs jing'ao.
When using Wade-Giles, a dash should be put between the two syllables of a given name, and the second syllable should not be capitalised (for example, Lee Teng-hui, not Lee Teng Hui).
Hy, I had a long and exausting debate about the name China inside of Talk:China. That article is about the Chinese civilization (and not about "China" as everybody understands it: the present country - de facto the PROC), and I propose that we move that article towards that name (i.e.:Chinese civilization). Following that, I propose that we move the current "PROC" - article towards China. To finish it we should also move the "ROC" - article towards Taiwan. This is IMHO the overwhelming view and use of all these names in the English-speaking world.
My reasons for this are the following:
Almost all "country-articles" in Wikipedia use the common name of a country. This is not the case of "China" (i.e.: the PROC). This should be changed.
While the precise status of Taiwan is debatable, this issue can be easily explained (I would write: "de jure unrecogized, but de facto independent country searching for wider international recognition" - or something similar).
Many won't like it but it is simply the truth: in the English-speaking world the PROC is simply recognized and named as "China". The ROC is simply recognized as "Taiwan". Wikipedia should follow this (trend?, fact?, truth?, reality?, rule?). To use the NPOV-rule is IMHO a very poor excuse. Since when is being fair and being accurate POV? Flamarande 13:38, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
I disagree, because:
What you might consider as fair and accurate will in the end on serve to push one, maybe two, POVs which is a big no-no at Wikipedia. And I want to remind you that NPOV is one of Wikipedia's core values. nat t a n g 01:19, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
This proposal wouldn't be relevant if we adopted the proposal for the disambiguation page, as suggested on Talk:China. I'd suggest resolving that question first. If China turns into a disambiguation page (like America), then leaving People's Republic of China and Republic of China where they are would seem to be the most practical solution. -- Folic Acid 03:24, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
All the instances cited here relate to modern politics and media. When I want to eat Chinese food, admire Chinese paintings, climb China's sacred peaks, talk about how the Mongols invaded China, or note that many immigrants in California are of Chinese ancestry, am I referring to the PRC? Absolutely not. Or possibly. The thing is that in many instances the PRC (or any modern political entity) is completely irrelevant, so it's not as clear cut as it has been portrayed here. We have PRC at its own location for the same reason we have Republic of Ireland and Republic of Macedonia (both involved in similar territorial disputes on whether the political entity encompasses the historical/cultural entity).-- Jiang 08:01, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
Flamarande: The problem is that people (sometimes the same person) use "China" to mean different things. When people refer to "China" (in the modern context) they can mean (notice I don't define PRC here) "mainland China", "mainland China, Hong Kong, and Macau", or "mainland China, Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan". Even the CIA World Factbook is confused: it posts a map including Hong Kong, Macau, and Taiwan under its "China" entry but proceeds to list economic and demographic data that excludes these regions. The Hong Kong entry is clearly inconsistent too: it states that "Hong Kong became the Hong Kong Special Administrative Region (SAR) of China on 1 July 1997" but then says it is "bordering the South China Sea and China" (how can you border something you are part of?). So no, when you and I are talking about China, even in modern context (which does not describe most links pointing to the China article), we are not necessarily referring to the People's Republic of China in its entirety (and we would have to agree on what constitutes the People's Republic of China in its entirety in the first place).
But this is besides the point. When you and I are talking about China, whether the PRC is relevant depends on context. If it is about politics, then yes, it is relevant. If it is about the stuff we bother to mention in the current China article, then no, it is not relevant. I fail to see the connection. The beauty of Wikipedia is that m:wiki is not a paper. We can afford to explain the difference between the "Republic of China" and "Taiwan" and the "People's Republic of China" and "China" where print encyclopedias could not afford separate articles for similar entities. Unlike news articles, we don't need to simplify facts and situations for our audience - we can explain them in their entirety. How do we best educate people? I think the current setup best accomplishes this.-- Jiang 01:47, 1 October 2007 (UTC)
All these comparisons are extremely faulty in their own rights. This is equivalent to having an article like "United States civilization" on chinese wikipedia because too many people say America, USA, US, United States of America, and no one in the Far East can decide on what's the best name. So let's just move it to a civilization page, and have the disembig page be the default. There is nothing more bizarre than saying Confucius lives in [[China Civilization|China]]. Is obvious that "China" is the name of the country. Why are we still trying to come up with replacements. Benjwong 00:00, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes, I read the above. I think you guys are still trying to make a move without knowing "why". Are users really confused by the name "China"? Shouldn't we be moving France, since they have an even longer disembig page, and may lead to even more confusion. Benjwong 03:24, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
I think what started as one proposal under good faith by Flamarande has since spiral into too many different scattered proposals. Because this can be time consuming, I am trying to see what the goal is still? We don't necessarily have to change anything. People are ok with a hot topic. But what is not okay is killing hours for some unknown purpose. Benjwong 04:36, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
Look Aug, I never thought that the propossed moves would recieve major opposition (had I known...I probably would never presented them). So let me ask you something: When you talk about "China" as in "I want to travel to China." about which country are you talking about? The PROC, none other. That's a fact, simple as that. When talking about Taiwan everybody means the ROC. When you are talking about the Chinese civilization you're talking the "Chinese civilization". You know it, I know it, everybody knows it. This standard is followed in almost all country-articles. The only thing I think is that these articles (China, Taiwan, Chinese civilization) should truly be about "China", "Taiwan", and "Chinese civilization". Proper paragraphs can explain further historical/civilization meaning of this word and this seem to work splendidly in all the other country-articles. Is China such a truly unique case? Can't we compare China with France (or Iraq, Egypt, etc), as an example? I think that these reasons plus the 9 points are enough reasons Why we should make the "moves".
The other side presents all these arguments (comparing them with Ireland, FYROM, North and South Korea), saying that the name "China" is ambigious, that the moves would require too much work, that in Chinese there are terms like "mainland China", that the propossed moves are the same as taking sides with the PROC, implied that if we make the moves the PROC could block Wikipedia even further, etc ... But take a look at my 9 points (and the evidence I collected); were they rejected in anyway (along with evidence)? No, instead of showing that they are wrong or false the opposition fully avoid them. IMHO they don't have a case, and they know it, and they are just being stuborn. They want to ride out the storm agin, again, and again and block out the outside reality. Wikipedia claims to be a encyclopedia, but it isn't because true encyclopedias don't have or use the NPOV excuse. They rather explain the issue. Seriously, grab your geographic encyclopedia at home, flip it up at "China", and what will you find? The PROC, nothing else, alongside a good resume of Chinese history (with a proper Nationalist China paragraph). You know it, I know it, everybody knows it, but Wikipedia doesn't seem to know it. I vote that we make the moves and I rest my case. I have further articles to improve. Flamarande 14:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
First, I fail to see how we are "inventing names as a means of compromising between opposing POVs". "China" the country/civilization and "China" the sovereign state are not mutually exclusive entities. None of what is currently located at "China" is in the least bit made invalid by the existence of the PRC. Second, the current setup merely serves different contexts, not different POVs. A POV fork implies that the articles themselves are written according to different political slants on the basis of the name used: this is not the case. The China article is not anti-PRC and the PRC article is not pro-PRC. How is this a POV fork? This is a matter of accuracy more than it is a matter of compromise. Third, by claiming that we are "denying to place the People's Republic of China article at China" (as if it where entitled to it by virtue of existence) we are reducing ourselves to nationalist/legalist/moralistic arguments that Wikipedia:Naming conflict explicitly tells us to avoid. The accusations being made here specifically against certain Wikipedia editors evokes the subjective question "Is the use of the name politically unacceptable?". That is not a question to ask. Whether the current setup is the work of the KMT supporters is irrelevant. Argue facts, not personalities. We don't care who is behind this, and nor should we make the assumption that anyone supporting the current setup supports the KMT. How is the current setup POV? In what ways would the PRC object to our content?
I think STC points out a contradiction in the naming conventions between the "use common names" rule and the " avoid ambiguity" rule that is not sufficiently addressed by Wikipedia:Naming conflict.
Be precise when necessary; don't title articles ambiguously when the title has other meanings. As stated above with my example of the CIA world factbook being inconsistent, there is ambiguity involved with the term "China". While China often means PRC, it also means mainland China or what the PRC claims to be the PRC (note these are likely extremes). Moreover, Wikipedia:Naming conflict calls for disambiguation to be used when "A name used by one entity may well clash with a name used by another entity." This implies that there is sanction for separate articles. So whether some other country also calls itself China is not irrelevant. And whether there are other things named China (like pottery) is also not irrelevant. As stated, when ambiguity persists, we can only determine things on a case-by-case basis.
Lastly, in suggesting that we introduce terms at a greater precision than the news media, I am not suggesting that we push specialist terms. If there is ambiguity or potential misunderstanding (eg use of "Republic of China" in contemporary context), then we have to introduct it in a less confusing way (eg insert Taiwan in parenthesis). But this pertains to the text within articles, not what we name them. If there is a name more accurate than another, we go by the more accurate name. If the meanings can significantly differ, we create separate articles. Other encyclopedias cannot afford this. Other encyclopedias do not also have to deal with millions on context-dependent links that magnify any inherent precision or imprecision present in article names in content. On the same note, the PRC isnt what our reader reading about Chinese calligraphy came to find either. The links already reflect this. -- Jiang 03:32, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
We are talking about the location of the article, not the text within the article. The lead of the PRC article is supposed to be NPOV, and I think it succeeds in this task. But the claim being made here is that, because this body of text is titled "People's Republic of China" instead of "China", it is somehow POV? I don't see how. Calling the article "Red China" or even "Communist China" would be POV, but calling it "People's Republic of China" (what it calls itself) is not.
I still don't see the validity of the six points being forwarded as justification for renaming. Just because the text in the article fairly describes any political dispute does not make the equation China->PRC (note I didn't write PRC->China) always true.-- Jiang 10:07, 9 October 2007 (UTC)
One question that doesn't seem to be addressed here is: Why is China the only country who should get an article on its civilisation? You don't find pages on Indian civilization and Greek civilization, although you do find Western civilization and Persian civilization -- which are redirects to Western culture and Culture of Iran. There is also an article on Culture of China. I'm just wondering, why is China so special that people want to give it an article on Chinese civilisation? Is it because there is something peculiarly wonderful or special about China and its civilisation? Or is it simply because the political controversy surrounding the modern state (PRC) makes it impossible to set up a page that is entitled simply "China"? Bathrobe 08:09, 6 October 2007 (UTC)
Yes Flamarande 14:18, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
OK. Whether it's democracy or not. I think I have read all the points stated by User:Flamarande and already gave a full consideration of his points. Based on my understanding of his proposal, I would disagree with the proposal that User:Flamarande made. Due to my time restriction, I may not be able to join and follow all the possible discussion/vote on this issue. In case that happens for the same categories of discussion, please count my vote of disgreement on the move of article "China". Thanks, Augest 03:38, 5 October 2007 (UTC)
I think it is necessary to start this discussion again, because I think this is very important. My English-speaking skill is limited so forgive me if you cannot understand some of the things that I'm trying to explain.
The common name naming conventions state that "Except where other accepted Wikipedia naming conventions give a different indication, use the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things." And I believe the Chinese naming conventions aren't quiet accepted by everyone, and I don't think they are treated with common sense. In short, I believe the Chinese conventions should be more standardized with the common name conventions on this issue.
I believe that the following moves/merges would be done if we only follow the common name naming conventions (which we should do):
There would be a lot more minor moves, these are just the major ones.-- Jerry 22:13, 26 October 2007 (UTC)
We've responded to DownUnder555 on many occasions and at length. The problem we have is that we have essentially separate regimes going under the same names. There's a somewhat clear succession of governments, but a less clear succession of states. From 1912 to 1928 we have a continuous political entity, and from 1927 to the present we have another. But then, territorially speaking, the political entity extends from 1912 to 1949 only. It's just so messy that we can't simply create countries templates for Warlord vs. Nationalist China in the way we can separate Zaire from the Democratic Republic of the Congo. So I really don't see how moving "History of the Republic of China" to "Republican China" accomplishes anything. "Republican China" is a historical era label, not the name of a state, so simply tacking on a template under that name is inadequate.
I'm not convinced of the benefits of the last two changes. Why lose precision when we can afford to have it?-- Jiang 23:45, 28 October 2007 (UTC)
I am not sure if it will NPOV to move ROC post-1947 to Taiwan, as Taiwan does not offically change the name of their country/state yet. Again, it's not just a UN thing. As I pointed out before, Taiwan had a seat in UN until sometime in 70's. Do we want to change the offical state name of Taiwan in Wikipedia even before Taiwan change it itself? Not mention PRC still claims Taiwan as part of China. So we choose to ignore the claim of PRC and help Taiwai to change its offical country/state name... Augest 01:26, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
Flamarande made some good proposals in the Talk:China discussion page. They seem to be meeting some resistence, but the problems they would solve are still ongoing. No one seems to be able to say what "China" is. The map is impossible to draw because it is different depending on the definition of "China" that is used. The article has many places that show a strong POV that Taiwan is part of China, however it is difficult show exactly why that is a problem or propose a better wording when I can't figure out what the article is about. There seem to be claims that the article is about "Chinese civilization", yet the discussions center around Chinese politics. Readin ( talk) 05:45, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
2) Larry Sanger's argument is IMHO a red herring: We also do not always mean the French Republic when we say "France" (e.g.: France built the Arc de Triomphe but the French Republic didn't). This aplies to all countries.
I posted this at the "history standards" talk page, but nobody has responded, so I thought I'd try it here. Emperor X of Y is a terrible naming convention for Chinese emperors, particularly when it means using weird name forms that are never used in English. Han Wudi is much more often called "Wudi" than just "Wu", and Han Wudi is a much simpler and more natural name form than Emperor Wu of Han. I'd much prefer forms like Han Wudi or Tang Taizong to the current form. At the very least, I'd propose dropping the "Emperor" and bringing it back in to the posthumous forms, when necessary. E.g. Wudi of Han and Yangdi of Sui (and Taizong of Tang), instead of Emperor Wu of Han, Emperor Yang of Sui (and Emperor Taizong of Tang). john k ( talk) 14:35, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
"Emperor X of Y" is inelegant, but it's less confusing than "Y Xdi," in that a non-Chinese speaking person would not easily be able to tell "di" as "emperor," and so, yes, I do object, and I object strongly, to, for example, changing "Emperor Wu of Han" to "Han Wudi." Same for, for example, "Tang Taizong" -- it looks very much to the naked eye to be a person with the family name Tang and the personal name Taizong.
What I would not object to, but I'd like to hear more discussion on, is changing to personal names entirely -- Liu Che, for example. (The Chinese Wikipedia articles are already largely, although not consistently, using personal names.) This also avoids inconsistencies across dynasties, although it does present unique problems for Yuan Dynasty and Qing Dynasty emperors. ( Aixinjueluo Fulin might not be a particularly good way to refer to Shunzhi Emperor, for example, although I do not like the current title either.) -- Nlu ( talk) 19:51, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
I noticed there was a user recently who moved a bunch of articles about 镇-level governments in China from "X" to "X Town", citing this naming convention as justification. It's true that it does currently give "X Town" as an option for disambiguation. Is this really a good iidea? The formation "Somethingthing Town" sounds very awkward in English. Wouldn't [X (town)] be a better option, at least in the case of places that can reasonably be described as actual towns? In some of these cases, I'm not really sure why they need to be disambiguated at all ... they could just stay at "X".— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 05:48, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry about opening this can of worms again, but because of my recent dispute with another user on this, not only I learned for the first time this policy exists, but also I found it somewhat misleading.
On the "Taiwan" usage as a geographic location (the third column), I proposed we change the "PLACE COMMA Taiwan" to "PLACE in Taiwan" because the "PLACE COMMA Taiwan" format can be interpreted in a political context, while "PLACE in Taiwan" leaves no doubt that "Taiwan" is used in a geographic context, i.e. "located in Taipei City in Taiwan" or "located in Kaohsiung City in Taiwan". -- Will74205 ( talk) 00:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
I completely disagree. In the geographical context, Taiwan is always referred to as "Taiwan" - it isn't political at all to say "Taipei, Taiwan". It's much more natural to keep the current format. John Smith's ( talk) 10:02, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
If we wanted to be politically neutral, we would simply recognize the government controlling the area and call it "PLACE, Republic of China". However we don't want to offend anyone so let's ask, "if you were sending a letter there, where would you send it to?" Of the addresses that would work (PLACE, Taiwan) or (PLACE, ROC) or (PLACE, Republic of China) or (PLACE, Republic of China (Taiwan)), simply (PLACE, Taiwan) seems the most understandable to English speakers and the least likely to offend. Readin ( talk) 18:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
We need to be clear on what we mean by "Taiwan":
We are not fully consistent with the island. I think, that in formulating the current policy, we failed to account for some redundancy. At Songshan Domestic Airport we had a dispute over whether to say that the airport is in "Songshan District, Taipei City, Republic of China in northern Taiwan" or in "Songshan District, Taipei City, Taiwan". The former, IMO, is unquestionably more informative than the latter and should be the preferred format.
As a string of political divisions, the current guidelines sanction the use of "Republic of China" in the form "Taipei County, Taiwan Province, Republic of China". In the same way, when we are explicitly referring to administrative heirarchy, "Songshan District, Taipei City, Republic of China" should be permitted. Otherwise, District, City, and Republic of China all have to disappear at once (and why provide less when we have room for more?).-- Jiang ( talk) 07:35, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm saying that the ability to interpret "PLACE, Taiwan" is more of a strength than a weakness. If we were defining "Taiwan", we wouldn't want ambiguity. If we were writing about Taiwan's political status, we would want to avoid ambiguity. But we're not providing information about Taiwan, we're providing the location of a place, and saying "PLACE, Taiwan" provides the same information no matter how you interpret it. This is a strength because it allows people to interpret it in the manner least offensive to them. Readin ( talk) 16:35, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
After some thinking, I found that the only place where I have concerns in the current policy was that the current policy doesn't take into account for the special status of Taipei City and Kaohsiung City. The reason is that in the third column, the "PLACE, Taiwan" format is correct for all other cities and towns in both geographic and political division context, while "Kaohsiung City, Taiwan" or "Taipei City, Taiwan" format is incorrect in political division context because they are not part of any political division named Taiwan. My reason for respecting the correct political division is that "PLACE, Taiwan" format cannot avoid being interpreted politically, and this format, as in other articles, usually reserve for "PLACE, ONE-LEVEL-UP POLITICAL DIVISION". So I proposed the following change (change in Red) so to include the correct political division hierarchy with respect to its location in Taiwan:
Republic of China or ROC | Either Republic of China (Taiwan) or Taiwan ( Republic of China) | Taiwan | Taiwan Province |
---|---|---|---|
|
|
|
|
-- Will74205 ( talk) 23:29, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
My opinion on Will74205's proposal is this -- it's necessary for accuracy's sake for something like this, because as it stands, "Taipei, Taiwan" and "Kaohsiung, Taiwan" are both factually incorrect in that these cities are not parts of Taiwan Province. It would be analogous to "Washington, Maryland" (which is arguably geographically correct in that Washington D.C. was carved out of Maryland) but certainly not factually correct. However, my proposed alternative to Will74205's proposal would be to use "Taipei, Republic of China (Taiwan)" and "Kaohsiung, Republic of China (Taiwan)." -- Nlu ( talk) 05:40, 10 January 2008 (UTC)
Will74205, it does not look like there will be a consensus on this as it stands, and therefore I think it might be wise to close the discussion, unless you want to consider trying to get more comments on this by filing a RfC. -- Nlu ( talk) 09:51, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
I think this calls for a clarification of the existing guidelines. Under Taiwan Province it states that the term should be used "When referring to a specific location within the formal administrative hierarchy". This rule should also apply to "Republic of China" as it is also a almost exclusively political (rather than geographical/cultural) term. In the same way "county, Taiwan Province" is acceptable under current guidelines, "Taipei, Republic of China" and "Kaohsiung, Republic of China" should be acceptable when "referring to a [district or city] within the formal administrative hierarchy".-- Jiang ( talk) 23:47, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
The last bullet point in the Taiwan Province column can be copied verbatim into the Republic of China column. The example even has "Republic of China" already linked in it.-- Jiang ( talk) 20:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)
The disambiguation guide currently gives "X City" as option for disambiguating the names of "cities" (i.e. Jilin City and Huangshan City). "Cities" seems to include various types of local governments, among them the 地级市 (dìjí shì, prefecture-level city). Now, I agree that the form "X City" is a more palatable phrase in English than "X Town" is—at least, it is, when the thing referred to, X, is a city. The problem, though, is that many dìjí shì in Mainland China are actually not cities. As the article prefecture-level city says, "A prefecture-level city is not a 'city' in the strictest sense of the term, but instead an administrative unit comprising, typically, both an urban core (a city in the strict sense) and surrounding rural or less-urbanized areas usually many times the size of the central, built-up core." Usually, a dìjí shì is at least named after a city or town in it, but "Huangshan City" is an example of one that is not—it is named after a tourist site instead. So, it seems like there will be a lot of cases where it is misleading and confusing to give an article a title with "City" in it. "X (city)" is even worse, because then we give the impression that the narrator is saying that this thing is a city (just as Vatican City is fine but Vatican (city) would be quite wrong). I'm not sure what a better solution is, though. I moved Huangshan (city) to Huangshan (shi), where it stayed for about six months before it got moved back, but I can understand that would be objections to X (shi).— Nat Krause( Talk!· What have I done?) 00:34, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
User:SchmuckyTheCat recently removed:
Although the use of the term " Manchuria" is considered by some to be somewhat objectionable when used in Chinese, it is largely considered a non-political and non-objectionable term when used in English.
In explanation he said:
Republic of China, Taiwan, and variations thereof - remove useless sentence. nobody uses Manchuria in modern english. anyways, as a suggestion it's prescriptive
I still use "Manchuria". If the term is no longer used in modern English, what is the term in use these days? What is meant by "as a suggestion it's prescriptive"? Readin ( talk) 20:55, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I've never heard of "Manchuria" being used to refer to all of China. I'll look at the context and see if that was implied. Readin ( talk) 21:52, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
If someone has ever heard "Manchuria" being used to refer to all of China than the context certainly fits with your interpretation that such a usage was being condoned. I'll leave it out mainly because I don't know enough about that usage nor enough about Chinese sensitivities regarding the word for me to write something accurate and useful. Readin ( talk) 21:56, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
This discussion seems to have drawn to an end. In summary,
SchmuckyTheCat made a good-faith edit, and has had the good grace to admit it was based on a misunderstanding. The discussion stalled on whether the term is controversial.
This summer 2007 dispute makes it very clear that it is. However, this sentence has been in the convention since the very first draft, way back in 2003, which indicates some degree of consensus.
So do we have a consensus to restore the Manchuria naming convention? Matt's talk 04:52, 3 April 2008 (UTC)
User:SchmuckyTheCat recently removed reference to the word "Hakka" on the grounds that no one knows the work Hakka in English. I find it hard to accept this reasoning. People who have no knowledge of Chinese ethnic groups obviously don't know the name Hakka. People who've come into the field of Chinese studies and suddenly discover, possibly via Mandarin, that there is a group called the 客家 Kèjiā are obviously to be congratulated on broadening their knowledge. But if such people lack general knowledge and haven't read much in English about China, is that a good reason for saying that "nobody knows the word Hakka"? The word is out there; it's known by anybody who's done any reading about Chinese culture or customs. Not knowing the name Hakka is actually pretty unforgivable for anyone who considers him/herself to have any knowledge of China. As for people with no acquaintance of Chinese studies and don't know the name Hakka, these are the same sort of people who've never heard of Karens, Igbos, or Afars. Is that really a good basis for deciding that the name should disappear from Wikipedia? Bathrobe ( talk) 03:12, 19 January 2008 (UTC)
I have been editing/creating a number of Tang Dynasty articles, and I am almost at a stage where I'm getting into mid/late Tang Dynasty, when the offices of jiedushi were created and became prominent. The current usage of jiedushi in articles are a bit ambiguous and confusing, and I think some clarification/disambiguation in usage is required. This is what I currently propose:
Thoughts? -- Nlu ( talk) 20:58, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
See Talk:Ume#Requested move. Badagnani ( talk) 04:51, 27 March 2008 (UTC)
In light of the new Republic of China regime, Wikipedia needs to re-evaluate the naming conventions. Beautiful Formosa ( talk) 06:39, 30 March 2008 (UTC)
Interesting discussion at Talk:Xinhua Lu Stadium#Requested move on a requested rename from Xinhua Lu Stadium to Xinhualu Stadium. No consensus was reached. I have suggested that further discussion might take place here:
I can argue it either way in terms of:
So, I'd be happy for either convention to be adopted. Perhaps a slight preference for removing the blanks. But either seems acceptable, and either will save us time in the future, time that can then be spent on improving articles. Other comments? Andrewa ( talk) 16:51, 17 April 2008 (UTC)
Hanyu Pinyin is one of the standards promoted in Taiwan. Taiwanese people and place names are often referred to using Hanyu Pinyin as it is the most studied and used romanization method for Chinese words. Should Wikipedia provide at least alternative Hanyu Pinyin names next to the traditional names for convenience? -- Atitarev ( talk) 06:08, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
In contrast to the naming convention regarding Western names, the Chinese conventions are to put the family name first and the given name second. But what to do with the many Wikipedia biographies about Chinese people from Hong Kong? A lot of them also use Western forenames. For example: Rita Fan, which the full name in the lead was stated as Rita Fan Hsu Lai-tai. This is confusing, because a Westerner can think that her given name is "Rita" and here family name "Fan Hsu Lai-tai". But I think that her family name is "Fan", her given name "Hsu Lai-tai", and she also has a popular name or Christian name "Rita". I tried to fix this problem by putting the name Rita between quotation marks, thereby getting the following result in the lead: "Rita" Fan Hsu Lai-tai. The same I did with the name in the lead of the biography of Andrew Wong: "Andrew" Wong Wang Fat. According to WP:MOSBIO, popular names can be put between quotation marks.
Can someone please give advice whether this is correct? Thanks, Demophon ( talk) 08:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)