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Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
RESOLVED AS:
Research into race and intelligence is not "fringe", some of the conclusions drawn from that research are highly contentious and need to be presented as such in the article.
-- Ludwigs2 17:33, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Slrubenstein suggested changing: “All current research in race is based in SIRE information” to: “All current research on race in relation to IQ scores is based in SIRE information”. Basically, he's saying "Race can be biological when we talk about sickle-cell anemia, or anything but IQ. But when we talk about intelligence, there are no races--and I want this stated as a fact in Wikipedia". This illustrates the obvious bias of a group of editors here who are attempting to railroad this kind of nonsense through on their own. Captain Occam (who did a good job) quit as moderator due to the lack of consensus here, and now the POV group includes the moderator. Mikev made the manifestly reasonable statement:
He was very rudely attacked:
He then cited a Wikipedia policy which the punishment for breaking is wikipedia capital punishment: being banned from editing.
If this had been a physical confrontation on the street I would have called the police. But the "police" here are now on the take, so to speak. Mikev replied very politely:
The moderator's response to the ugly assault and polite response was NOT to berate the attacker or even censure him, but to call mikev's manifestly reasonable statements "unreasonable claims" and telling mikev, who has been part of this for weeks, [paraphrasing]: "Now get the hell out of here and don't come back until you've officially joined the conversation". I was shocked. I'm genuinely surprised that these editors would perform such mafia-like strongarming in a context which is being recorded and publicly available.
If they're not attacked outright or declared irrelevant, anyone pointing out why the biased position is nonsense is completely ignored, as if the objection had never been raised. For example, Mikev objected to the inclusion of an AAPA statement (which the biased editors were misrepresenting as being supportive of their position). He said: "I would be grateful if one of the advocates of using this could explain which parts of the statement are relevant to the article." his request went unanswered, the moderator having declared this kind of talk "exotic quibble". The AAPA statement will go in Wikipedia along with the implication: "The AAPA says that race is not biological", something their carefully-worded list of (true) statements did NOT say. I take particular offense at this because my first major was physical anthropology, and had I not eventually found cultural anthropology boring, I would be a member of AAPA now and signed that statement myself.
It's like trying to talk to "tea-party" wingnuts at a political website. It's like trying to talk to the Borg.
Look, NO one says that the universally-accepted IQ score gap is totally genetic in origin. The position of the POV-pushing editors is that NONE of the IQ difference is genetic, because they falsely (and insultingly) characterize that as a statement that (and I quote) "black people are inferior".
I am on the edge of saying "f*ck this", abandoning the article to the PC propagandists and coming back when scientists have smoking-gun proof that IQ is even partly genetic. My problem is: scientists have already DONE that. A summary of the research --probably over a thousand studies--was published by the prestigious APA in 2002(?). I am not sure of the year because the link to the most important document in this matter--which supports the genetic position--is broken. I replaced it with one that works weeks ago, but I see now that someone changed it back to a broken link. Given the above, I suppose I should not be surprised that these went unchallenged by the moderator:
And there's so much more of this that I'm tired of going back to the other Firefox tab, finding the next instance, then describing it here. To do so would be essentially to post an annotated copy of the entire discussion, and I have RL responsibilities. But I missed ONE day here, and when I came back, I discovered the decisions which "we" had supposedly made, and which I and others objected to. These decisions declare, in a nutshell, that as long as it's not mathematically impossible that the R/I correlation isn't biological, even the most conclusive, published psychometric research showing it is should either be minimized, described as "fringe science", or entirely replaced with statements of "race doesn't exist" by groups like the ASA, who are not even tangentially involved with DNA or biology.
I may very well be mistaken and I hope I am, but it seems more likely to me that this effort is being organized by a college club, a fraternity, or a political organization rather than that so many well-meaning Wikipedia editors are actually willing to tell lies in public about a scientific topic and back them up with thuggery.
This post, like many others objecting to the political corruption of this article, will probably be ignored. Certainly, the blatant, obvious bias will continue. However I may receive a polite version of "F*ck you, you're outvoted", a threat from the demonstrably biased moderator to ban me if I point out their next POV pontification, or actually ban me. So I'm putting this in the record for reference, should a review of this farce be done by an unbiased observer after everyone objecting to it has been thrown out. I see my role here now, not as an advocate for the objective presentation of repeatedly-proven facts, because those facts are routinely declared irrelevant. I am now merely documenting the shameful bias of this make-believe mediation. TechnoFaye Kane 04:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
resolved at Wikipedia_talk:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2009-11-12/Race_and_Intelligence#The_99.86.25_correlation_number
Above Slruenstein writes:We seem to have gotten stuck on some of the particulars of this issue (preliminary gene level results), and I don't think we've really addressed the topic at the broad level. I for one am firmly in the summary side. That's not to say that gene level details shouldn't be in the article. Rather, they should be included when a reasonable summary of the Genetics of intelligence article warrants it. It would be useful for those interested including these details (I'm thinking of Captain Occam in particular) to discuss where they sit on the broad level, and whether summarizing Genetics of intelligence is a valid approach. Additionally, if they think gene level details should be included, an explanation of the rationale might move the mediation forward. A.Prock 17:55, 18 February 2010 (UTC)If I am right, the debate here is thus: one side says, since the psychology article concluded that there is no or not yet evidence that these loci correlate with race, it means that this issue was discussed in a psychology article, which means that it is relevant to accounts of discussions of psychological research on race and IQ, even if all we say is that the conclusion was there is no conclusive evidence. The other side says, since the conclusion was there is no conclusive evidence for a link, it is therefore not relevant to discussions of race and intelligence, therefore not relevant to the article.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | → | Archive 8 |
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
RESOLVED AS:
Research into race and intelligence is not "fringe", some of the conclusions drawn from that research are highly contentious and need to be presented as such in the article.
-- Ludwigs2 17:33, 10 February 2010 (UTC)
Slrubenstein suggested changing: “All current research in race is based in SIRE information” to: “All current research on race in relation to IQ scores is based in SIRE information”. Basically, he's saying "Race can be biological when we talk about sickle-cell anemia, or anything but IQ. But when we talk about intelligence, there are no races--and I want this stated as a fact in Wikipedia". This illustrates the obvious bias of a group of editors here who are attempting to railroad this kind of nonsense through on their own. Captain Occam (who did a good job) quit as moderator due to the lack of consensus here, and now the POV group includes the moderator. Mikev made the manifestly reasonable statement:
He was very rudely attacked:
He then cited a Wikipedia policy which the punishment for breaking is wikipedia capital punishment: being banned from editing.
If this had been a physical confrontation on the street I would have called the police. But the "police" here are now on the take, so to speak. Mikev replied very politely:
The moderator's response to the ugly assault and polite response was NOT to berate the attacker or even censure him, but to call mikev's manifestly reasonable statements "unreasonable claims" and telling mikev, who has been part of this for weeks, [paraphrasing]: "Now get the hell out of here and don't come back until you've officially joined the conversation". I was shocked. I'm genuinely surprised that these editors would perform such mafia-like strongarming in a context which is being recorded and publicly available.
If they're not attacked outright or declared irrelevant, anyone pointing out why the biased position is nonsense is completely ignored, as if the objection had never been raised. For example, Mikev objected to the inclusion of an AAPA statement (which the biased editors were misrepresenting as being supportive of their position). He said: "I would be grateful if one of the advocates of using this could explain which parts of the statement are relevant to the article." his request went unanswered, the moderator having declared this kind of talk "exotic quibble". The AAPA statement will go in Wikipedia along with the implication: "The AAPA says that race is not biological", something their carefully-worded list of (true) statements did NOT say. I take particular offense at this because my first major was physical anthropology, and had I not eventually found cultural anthropology boring, I would be a member of AAPA now and signed that statement myself.
It's like trying to talk to "tea-party" wingnuts at a political website. It's like trying to talk to the Borg.
Look, NO one says that the universally-accepted IQ score gap is totally genetic in origin. The position of the POV-pushing editors is that NONE of the IQ difference is genetic, because they falsely (and insultingly) characterize that as a statement that (and I quote) "black people are inferior".
I am on the edge of saying "f*ck this", abandoning the article to the PC propagandists and coming back when scientists have smoking-gun proof that IQ is even partly genetic. My problem is: scientists have already DONE that. A summary of the research --probably over a thousand studies--was published by the prestigious APA in 2002(?). I am not sure of the year because the link to the most important document in this matter--which supports the genetic position--is broken. I replaced it with one that works weeks ago, but I see now that someone changed it back to a broken link. Given the above, I suppose I should not be surprised that these went unchallenged by the moderator:
And there's so much more of this that I'm tired of going back to the other Firefox tab, finding the next instance, then describing it here. To do so would be essentially to post an annotated copy of the entire discussion, and I have RL responsibilities. But I missed ONE day here, and when I came back, I discovered the decisions which "we" had supposedly made, and which I and others objected to. These decisions declare, in a nutshell, that as long as it's not mathematically impossible that the R/I correlation isn't biological, even the most conclusive, published psychometric research showing it is should either be minimized, described as "fringe science", or entirely replaced with statements of "race doesn't exist" by groups like the ASA, who are not even tangentially involved with DNA or biology.
I may very well be mistaken and I hope I am, but it seems more likely to me that this effort is being organized by a college club, a fraternity, or a political organization rather than that so many well-meaning Wikipedia editors are actually willing to tell lies in public about a scientific topic and back them up with thuggery.
This post, like many others objecting to the political corruption of this article, will probably be ignored. Certainly, the blatant, obvious bias will continue. However I may receive a polite version of "F*ck you, you're outvoted", a threat from the demonstrably biased moderator to ban me if I point out their next POV pontification, or actually ban me. So I'm putting this in the record for reference, should a review of this farce be done by an unbiased observer after everyone objecting to it has been thrown out. I see my role here now, not as an advocate for the objective presentation of repeatedly-proven facts, because those facts are routinely declared irrelevant. I am now merely documenting the shameful bias of this make-believe mediation. TechnoFaye Kane 04:07, 17 February 2010 (UTC)
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
resolved at Wikipedia_talk:Mediation_Cabal/Cases/2009-11-12/Race_and_Intelligence#The_99.86.25_correlation_number
Above Slruenstein writes:We seem to have gotten stuck on some of the particulars of this issue (preliminary gene level results), and I don't think we've really addressed the topic at the broad level. I for one am firmly in the summary side. That's not to say that gene level details shouldn't be in the article. Rather, they should be included when a reasonable summary of the Genetics of intelligence article warrants it. It would be useful for those interested including these details (I'm thinking of Captain Occam in particular) to discuss where they sit on the broad level, and whether summarizing Genetics of intelligence is a valid approach. Additionally, if they think gene level details should be included, an explanation of the rationale might move the mediation forward. A.Prock 17:55, 18 February 2010 (UTC)If I am right, the debate here is thus: one side says, since the psychology article concluded that there is no or not yet evidence that these loci correlate with race, it means that this issue was discussed in a psychology article, which means that it is relevant to accounts of discussions of psychological research on race and IQ, even if all we say is that the conclusion was there is no conclusive evidence. The other side says, since the conclusion was there is no conclusive evidence for a link, it is therefore not relevant to discussions of race and intelligence, therefore not relevant to the article.