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Archived from this version.
These two edits have been made by a Tor node and are clearly disruptive. I thought the early edit might have been Omegatron editing his own comment but now I check the edit comment and IP it is also a Tor exit node. [1] [2] Fnag aton 18:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
he can’t make history files disappear.
And my "cryptic answer" is because I know it's bad form to accuse specific people of sockpuppetry (or strawpuppetry) without specific types of evidence, and I'm sure the people involved are experienced professionals by now and know exactly how to evade that type of evidence (Tor). I think it's obvious who's behind them, but I'll let you all draw your own conclusions. I'll just say to those responsible that your position must be pretty weak if you can't convince anyone of it without resorting to this kind of childish nonsense. — Omegatron ( talk) 17:19, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
I propose we bring in new blood on this. This argument had gone on for years (since the very inception of the existing policy) and there is no resolution in sight. Most of the people who voted on the hybrid proposal have tired of the fruitless bickering here and gone elsewhere to actually have fun at this hobby. Why don’t we post a very simple proposal on Talk:MOS and Talk:MOSNUM? We can have a lively discussion and debate and have a show of hands. The proposal to discuss would be this:
The following wording is intended to add extra specificity to
Which system to use:
To comment on how this policy could be modified and/or expanded here on MOSNUM, please go to
this dedicated discussion page.
Notes
I think many more editors would be interested in weighing in on a simple policy guideline such as this.
Well, how about it? Should we solicit input from other editors and keep the issue extremely simple? Greg L ( my talk) 21:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Good idea. Let’s do.
Bad idea. Let’s not.
Some current literature does conform to IEC 60027-2 and even explicitely uses MiB. Or are you talking about majorities again? In some cases different units are common in current literature. So a rule "Wikipedia should use the units of measure used in current literature on that subject" like does not really help at all. Again IEC 60027-2 is an international standard and it is therefore perfectly valid to use it when writing Wikipedia articles. I could care less about the motivation of magazine editors to stick to the old ambiguous convention. I could think of many reasons but it's nonsense to speculate about them. I'd guess it basically boils down to peer pressure though. Most of those authors can also assume that their readers are already familiar with the basics and terminology. If you really wonder you might want to ask some of these journalists. I'm also convinced that by now almost all people working somewhere in the IT business have at least heard once about IEC 60027-2 (not necessarily the standard itself but at least the new prefixes). I don't consider myself as one of a "few gifted experts who know more than others". Not at all, I don't even think you have to be much of an expert at all to understand the problem and know the new IEC prefixes. Apparently you consider me an elitist but I believe it's exactly the other way around because my aim is to disambiguate, to straighten things out and make them easier to understand for everyone. The opposition wants to stick to a convention that requires a lot expert knowledge which is full of exceptions because it's not even consistent among all field of computing. -- 217.87.83.213 ( talk) 13:28, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Units of measure: For any given article and target readership*, Wikipedia should use the units of measure and methods of disambiguation commonly used in current literature on that subject.
As for your observation “I'm also convinced that by now almost all people working somewhere in the IT business have at least heard once about IEC 60027-2,” let’s not take two steps backwards for each one forwards. No one disagreed with this statement: “The word “mebibyte” (symbol MiB) is not widely recognized by the typical Wikipedia reader.” If the computer industry adopted the IEC prefixes, the general-interest computer magazines would soon follow suit. But they both haven’t and pretty much covers the bulk of Wikipedia’s target audience because most of the computer-related articles on Wikipedia are directed to a general-interest readership.
Now, I was being a tad facetious when I wrote above about how the proponents of the IEC prefixes are behaving as if they are technical writing gods (although there is certainly an element of that god-like attitude when the proponents say “things are broken and we know what’s better”). It is simply not right for contributing authors to put Wikipedia in a position of effectively promoting change by being the only general-interest, English-language publication (among magazines—whether print or on-line—and encyclopedias) to have adopted a new unit of measure. It doesn’t do Wikipedia’s readers any good whatsoever to routinely encounter stuff like “To run Vista, a computer is best equipped with at least 3 GiB of RAM.” Hopefully, the reader would be smart enough to know that “well… that’s just Wikipedia.” But if some guy ran down to Best Buy with his friends to buy a computer and used language like that, it wouldn’t go over well—at least not until he explained that he had read it on Wikipedia. Ohhhhhhhh… *(knowing smiles among his friends)* We’ve got to be more mainstream here. The practices observed by Encyclopedia Britannica and the computer magazines works well enough for them without using the IEC prefixes so we can figure out a way to work without them too. And because the rest of the computer and publishing industries aren’t routinely using the IEC prefixes is why we shouldn’t routinely use them. We can write about them—in articles like Byte for instance; just not routinely use them. We’ve got to go with the flow here. Greg L ( talk) 19:00, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Apple’s Apple’s Developer Connection Web site, is clearly a web site for developers and programmers. How do I know this? Because it’s part of a section called “Apple’s Developer Connection” at http://developer.apple.com/. Even I can figure that one out. Note too that this particular site contains this choice little bit for developers to help them write to a RAID:
The following command would create a volume named "MyVolume", on the RAIDSet named "MyRAIDSet", using one fifth of all available space on that RAIDSet:
# raidutil create volume -n MyVolume -s 20% -r MyRAIDSet
I note your above statement “ Apple doesn't seem to have a problem with exposing their users to IEC prefixes” (my emphasis). It is abundantly clear on the face of it as to the truth of the matter. It is clear that Apple draws a clear line between a “developer” and a “user.” How do we know this? Because on that very same page is this little tidbit to Apple’s develpers that might be of interest:
For our purposes, we will treat all size units as 1024 based numbers. We will allow the user to use the historically prevalent two character notation (KB, MB, GB, TB, and PB) but they will be treated as their more modern counterparts (KiB, MiB, GiB, TiB, and PiB).
Next, having the courage to speak the truth on Wikipedia regarding a country that has no guarantees of freedom of speech and your transparent attempt to conjure images of brave students standing in front of army tanks doesn’t have the slightest relevance here. We’re talking about how best to not confuse readers by avoiding the routine use of units of measure that haven’t found traction in the real world and are unfamiliar to most readers. If you have to resort to the tactic of attempting to seize the moral high ground by linking this discussion to brave Chinese disidents who are thrown in jail for speaking the truth, you have apparently run out of anything valuable to say. I do wish you wouldn’t waste anyone’s time here and would try to find something more relevant to say.
Finally, as for my comment of how you guys seem to have an attitude of “we want Wikipedia to do it differently from the rest of the world because we know better,” that is not intended as an insult. That is a legitimate, truthful way of looking at the logical consequences of what that position amounts to. Ergo, the poll above (“As a matter of fact, yes, I am more enlightened than all the editors at all the general-interest computer magazines and professional print encyclopedias.”) That is a way of helping certain editors here to see that this is a logical consequence of embracing their position on this matter. My suggesting that your position amounts to an attitude of “because you guys somehow know better than the pros” is not a prohibited personal attack; it is a perfectly legitimate tactic of debate taught in high-schools and college debate classes. If you don’t want to debate me, don’t debate me, but please don’t tell me how I may think or express my thoughts; if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Greg L ( talk) 21:00, 14 April 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archived from this version.
These two edits have been made by a Tor node and are clearly disruptive. I thought the early edit might have been Omegatron editing his own comment but now I check the edit comment and IP it is also a Tor exit node. [1] [2] Fnag aton 18:34, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
he can’t make history files disappear.
And my "cryptic answer" is because I know it's bad form to accuse specific people of sockpuppetry (or strawpuppetry) without specific types of evidence, and I'm sure the people involved are experienced professionals by now and know exactly how to evade that type of evidence (Tor). I think it's obvious who's behind them, but I'll let you all draw your own conclusions. I'll just say to those responsible that your position must be pretty weak if you can't convince anyone of it without resorting to this kind of childish nonsense. — Omegatron ( talk) 17:19, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
I propose we bring in new blood on this. This argument had gone on for years (since the very inception of the existing policy) and there is no resolution in sight. Most of the people who voted on the hybrid proposal have tired of the fruitless bickering here and gone elsewhere to actually have fun at this hobby. Why don’t we post a very simple proposal on Talk:MOS and Talk:MOSNUM? We can have a lively discussion and debate and have a show of hands. The proposal to discuss would be this:
The following wording is intended to add extra specificity to
Which system to use:
To comment on how this policy could be modified and/or expanded here on MOSNUM, please go to
this dedicated discussion page.
Notes
I think many more editors would be interested in weighing in on a simple policy guideline such as this.
Well, how about it? Should we solicit input from other editors and keep the issue extremely simple? Greg L ( my talk) 21:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Good idea. Let’s do.
Bad idea. Let’s not.
Some current literature does conform to IEC 60027-2 and even explicitely uses MiB. Or are you talking about majorities again? In some cases different units are common in current literature. So a rule "Wikipedia should use the units of measure used in current literature on that subject" like does not really help at all. Again IEC 60027-2 is an international standard and it is therefore perfectly valid to use it when writing Wikipedia articles. I could care less about the motivation of magazine editors to stick to the old ambiguous convention. I could think of many reasons but it's nonsense to speculate about them. I'd guess it basically boils down to peer pressure though. Most of those authors can also assume that their readers are already familiar with the basics and terminology. If you really wonder you might want to ask some of these journalists. I'm also convinced that by now almost all people working somewhere in the IT business have at least heard once about IEC 60027-2 (not necessarily the standard itself but at least the new prefixes). I don't consider myself as one of a "few gifted experts who know more than others". Not at all, I don't even think you have to be much of an expert at all to understand the problem and know the new IEC prefixes. Apparently you consider me an elitist but I believe it's exactly the other way around because my aim is to disambiguate, to straighten things out and make them easier to understand for everyone. The opposition wants to stick to a convention that requires a lot expert knowledge which is full of exceptions because it's not even consistent among all field of computing. -- 217.87.83.213 ( talk) 13:28, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Units of measure: For any given article and target readership*, Wikipedia should use the units of measure and methods of disambiguation commonly used in current literature on that subject.
As for your observation “I'm also convinced that by now almost all people working somewhere in the IT business have at least heard once about IEC 60027-2,” let’s not take two steps backwards for each one forwards. No one disagreed with this statement: “The word “mebibyte” (symbol MiB) is not widely recognized by the typical Wikipedia reader.” If the computer industry adopted the IEC prefixes, the general-interest computer magazines would soon follow suit. But they both haven’t and pretty much covers the bulk of Wikipedia’s target audience because most of the computer-related articles on Wikipedia are directed to a general-interest readership.
Now, I was being a tad facetious when I wrote above about how the proponents of the IEC prefixes are behaving as if they are technical writing gods (although there is certainly an element of that god-like attitude when the proponents say “things are broken and we know what’s better”). It is simply not right for contributing authors to put Wikipedia in a position of effectively promoting change by being the only general-interest, English-language publication (among magazines—whether print or on-line—and encyclopedias) to have adopted a new unit of measure. It doesn’t do Wikipedia’s readers any good whatsoever to routinely encounter stuff like “To run Vista, a computer is best equipped with at least 3 GiB of RAM.” Hopefully, the reader would be smart enough to know that “well… that’s just Wikipedia.” But if some guy ran down to Best Buy with his friends to buy a computer and used language like that, it wouldn’t go over well—at least not until he explained that he had read it on Wikipedia. Ohhhhhhhh… *(knowing smiles among his friends)* We’ve got to be more mainstream here. The practices observed by Encyclopedia Britannica and the computer magazines works well enough for them without using the IEC prefixes so we can figure out a way to work without them too. And because the rest of the computer and publishing industries aren’t routinely using the IEC prefixes is why we shouldn’t routinely use them. We can write about them—in articles like Byte for instance; just not routinely use them. We’ve got to go with the flow here. Greg L ( talk) 19:00, 13 April 2008 (UTC)
Apple’s Apple’s Developer Connection Web site, is clearly a web site for developers and programmers. How do I know this? Because it’s part of a section called “Apple’s Developer Connection” at http://developer.apple.com/. Even I can figure that one out. Note too that this particular site contains this choice little bit for developers to help them write to a RAID:
The following command would create a volume named "MyVolume", on the RAIDSet named "MyRAIDSet", using one fifth of all available space on that RAIDSet:
# raidutil create volume -n MyVolume -s 20% -r MyRAIDSet
I note your above statement “ Apple doesn't seem to have a problem with exposing their users to IEC prefixes” (my emphasis). It is abundantly clear on the face of it as to the truth of the matter. It is clear that Apple draws a clear line between a “developer” and a “user.” How do we know this? Because on that very same page is this little tidbit to Apple’s develpers that might be of interest:
For our purposes, we will treat all size units as 1024 based numbers. We will allow the user to use the historically prevalent two character notation (KB, MB, GB, TB, and PB) but they will be treated as their more modern counterparts (KiB, MiB, GiB, TiB, and PiB).
Next, having the courage to speak the truth on Wikipedia regarding a country that has no guarantees of freedom of speech and your transparent attempt to conjure images of brave students standing in front of army tanks doesn’t have the slightest relevance here. We’re talking about how best to not confuse readers by avoiding the routine use of units of measure that haven’t found traction in the real world and are unfamiliar to most readers. If you have to resort to the tactic of attempting to seize the moral high ground by linking this discussion to brave Chinese disidents who are thrown in jail for speaking the truth, you have apparently run out of anything valuable to say. I do wish you wouldn’t waste anyone’s time here and would try to find something more relevant to say.
Finally, as for my comment of how you guys seem to have an attitude of “we want Wikipedia to do it differently from the rest of the world because we know better,” that is not intended as an insult. That is a legitimate, truthful way of looking at the logical consequences of what that position amounts to. Ergo, the poll above (“As a matter of fact, yes, I am more enlightened than all the editors at all the general-interest computer magazines and professional print encyclopedias.”) That is a way of helping certain editors here to see that this is a logical consequence of embracing their position on this matter. My suggesting that your position amounts to an attitude of “because you guys somehow know better than the pros” is not a prohibited personal attack; it is a perfectly legitimate tactic of debate taught in high-schools and college debate classes. If you don’t want to debate me, don’t debate me, but please don’t tell me how I may think or express my thoughts; if you can’t take the heat, get out of the kitchen. Greg L ( talk) 21:00, 14 April 2008 (UTC)