This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
{ Quick link to version on MOSNUM}
The following red-div section is a reference version to start with. Please make edits to Fourth draft, below.
Use terminology and symbols commonly employed in the current literature for that subject and level of technicality. When in doubt, use the units of measure, prefixes, unit symbols, number notation, and methods of disambiguation most often employed in reliable periodicals directed to a similar readership.
Wikipedia’s mission is to communicate with minimal confusion so that readers can learn about a subject and are primed as well as possible to learn even more in their studies elsewhere. There are three important elements in determining what terminology and units of measure are best suited for a given article:
Preference for modern units
As an involved administrator, you have no more say than any other ordinary editor here. Further, given the fact that you were the lead proponent of the misguided policy this new one replaces, your opinion can not realistically be viewed as being unbiased. It is obvious on the face of it that there was a clear majority in favor of this; the only possible question is whether that properly meets all the requirements of a Wikipedia-style consensus. But it’s mighty notable that we had an uninvolved editor with plenty of experience in Wikipedia policy issues weigh in on this issue, Francis Schonken, who wrote “A rough consensus seems to have formed” and congratulated me on helping to get the policy on MOSNUM. And that was before the most recent vote. So just pardon me all over the place if I might feel there is some room for legitimate debate on whether or not a consensus was properly arrived at here.
If you want to go to mediation, that’s fine. I actually feel that going to ArbCom for “refusal to accept consensus” is the more appropriate venue. Either way, you make the call. In the mean time, it is absolutely improper of you to delete “Follow current literature.” Go find an uninvolved administrator to remove it. Why would you abuse your power as an administrator against the wishes of so many other editors? Greg L ( talk) 02:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I've shown diff links and quotes from policy to demonstrate why this section does not belong on the guideline page. My personal opinion is irrelevant.
It doesn't matter how "out in the open" you were. Inviting only a select group of people who share your point of view is the problem. See Wikipedia:CANVASS#Votestacking
When forming a policy or guideline, you need to reach consensus. Please re-read that page. Consensus does not mean finding a bunch of others that agree with you so that you can overpower your "opponents" and eradicate the thing you don't like, merely by being more persistent and stubborn than others. Wikipedia is not a battleground. Consensus means making a good faith effort to understand where each side is coming from, and fairly representing everyone's concerns in the finished product. Aggressively belittling others and summarily dismissing their opinions as "invalid" or "stupid" demonstrates that you have no interest in actually working towards consensus. You're just here to "win"; to obliterate something you personally despise, regardless of the good reasons for or against it. This is not how Wikipedia works, and anything you manage to push through without true consensus will just be invalidated by others in the future.
Consensus doesn't necessarily mean inviting all 100 people who have discussed this in the past to take part in the current discussion (which is difficult enough to follow as it is), but it does mean that their opinions need to be represented in the consensus decision. They still count, even if they're not actively participating right this second (which is why we don't decide things by votes). In other words, when they come back to this page and say "Hey! When did the guideline change?" it should be followed by "Well, I guess it's not a bad change. I don't object to the new version." Otherwise the argument's just going to start all over again as soon as more people become aware of the "decision". "Wikipedia's decisions are not based on the number of people who showed up and voted a particular way on a particular day; they are based on a system of good reasons."
Correct. And I haven't done anything more than any other ordinary editor would do. I haven't blocked anyone simply because I disagreed with them. I haven't protected the page in my preferred version. I haven't done anything of the sort. If you think I've abused administrative powers, please bring it up on the administrator's noticeboard. Here are the logs of my admin actions ( Omegatron ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)), which should make locating the supposed infractions much easier. — Omegatron ( talk) 23:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
You keep repeating this. Can you please explain what you're talking about?
As for the rest, it's been addressed many many times. I'm not going to keep saying the same things over and over to someone who refuses to listen. I've explained why the section needs to be removed in the paragraphs above. Please don't disrupt this guideline by continually re-adding it. — Omegatron ( talk) 22:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Now I challenge you: Please cite a single Wikipedia policy that ever resulted in this much contentious bickering. Please answer that question. As far as I can tell, the policy to use the IEC prefixes here on Wikipedia has proven to be a record-setting, paradigm of an utter failure and has put Wikipedia in the position of being all by itself on an unwise editorial practice not observed by any other professionally edited encyclopedia. You should have listened to Garrett Talk, who wrote this in 2005: “...and I had never heard of these things [the IEC prefixes] before it was raised on the Pump [ Village pump, which later became Water well], and I've been downloading countless gigs of who-knows-what since 1996. Come back in 2008 when it's an accepted term, or, rather, at which point it's stagnated.”Well, here we are in 2008. Whether you’re willing to accept the obvious or not, the conventional binary prefixes are here to stay in the world’s computing culture and they will be universally used ten years from now. The IEC prefixes have seen no more adoption today than back in 1999 (or 2006). Give it up for God’s sake. Greg L ( talk) 23:24, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
That's a nicely skewed interpretation of history.
So your personal vendetta against me is based on something you believe happened 3 years ago, before you even registered an account?
Here are the actual facts, with diffs to back them up, in case people want to keep dredging this up:
After a disagreement on game console articles (which I have never edited), User:Thax started a discussion about the possibility of a site-wide recommendation. [1] This was then moved to the Village Pump to get a wider viewpoint. [2] (I later moved it off the village pump to the Manual of Style talk page so that it wouldn't be lost, [3] and it now resides in the archives for that page, in Greg L's oddly-named "archive zero". [4])
User:Thax proposed a vote, [5] [6] which I disagreed with. [7] Policy is not decided by vote, and I said we should instead work towards consensus by creating a proposed policy page and editing it directly until it reached a form we could all agree with, at which point it would become a standalone guideline. User:Smyth agreed. [8]
Instead of creating a separate page, User:Thax added his proposal directly to the Manual of Style, [9], trying to summarize everyone's ideas and viewpoints the best he could. [10]
This is not what I suggested, but is not prohibited either. Editing guidelines directly was a condoned method of creating policy, as described in Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines#Guidelines, for instance. So I made some minor edits to clean it up, [11] alongside a number of other users, editing it to reach consensus in the wiki way. [12] [13] [14] [15] (Note the lack of revert warring and hostility. The issue wasn't nearly as polarized as it is now; most of us were just trying to gauge what the community thought and making up our own minds as we went.)
Neonumbers then asked for a vote again, [16] and Smyth started one. [17]
I advertised the discussion and vote in a few neutral places, like the Village Pump and the talk pages of articles like kilobyte and Binary prefix, so that we could get even more outside opinion.
Please clarify which of us is the "leader" that "rammed through a policy without consensus"? [18] Are you insinuating that the dozens of other editors who support IEC prefixes have somehow been unduly influenced by me or controlled by me? That they aren't capable of forming or holding their own opinions? You certainly give me a lot of credit.
Yes, 1/4 of people who responded to the discussion were opposed to the proposal (which, again, I did not add or recommend adding to the guideline page). They were free to edit it to their liking or remove it altogether. I suspect they simply didn't care. Most of us aren't nearly as fanatical about this as the likes of you and Fnagaton.
Heh.
— Omegatron ( talk) 00:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
In my opinion Omegatron has good reason to remove something that has never had consensus. The vote, as best I can recall it (it has been archived somewhere), ended with 7 votes in favour and 5 against. Since when is 7:5 considered a consensus? The main arguments against were eloquently explained by Jimp. Why are they any less valid than the arguments in favour? Nevertheless, I think Headbomb is close to a breakthrough here. I suggest we focus on resolving the remaining problems with the new text. Then all this will become water under the bridge Thunderbird2 ( talk) 11:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
There are clearly two problems here: One is that the combatants here are trying to define for themselves what constitutes a consensus. The second is that there are far too few participants in this issue. The whole IEC prefix issue doesn’t doesn’t get the juices flowing for the common editor. Oh sure, they might think “Follow current literature is wise, but most editors just don’t have the stomach for all the damned bickering that necessarily goes with resolving this issue. So, you know what I think? I think that if we have a nice, simple, no-bickering vote on “Follow current literature” and present the vote to a w-i-d-e spectrum of Wikipedia’s editors, the vast majority will think “makes sense to me,” and vote accordingly. You know what else I think? I think you guys know that, don’t you? That just might account for this consistent resistance to agreeing to binding mediation and to conducting a new, sweeping vote. I think I’ve just had my belly full of a voiciferous minority of editors making Wikipedia look brain damanged by running off using weird units of measure no reader even recognizes because it’s not used in the real world and no professionally edited encyclopedia uses them! And you guys still support this train wreck of a policy! Unbelievable.
And right now, I’m not buying into this “breakthrough” business from you; just pardon me all over the place but I’ve seen that kind of language out of you before and it never went anywhere. You just happen to be the only editor who gave such a piss-poor vote on the purple box. If we want a “breakthrough” upgrade your vote, otherwise I’m just not seeing any “breakthrough” here, just stalling. It’s beginning to become ever clearer in my mind that proper solution is to bite the bullet and invest the effort to have one, seriously big vote, the outcome of which is mediated so there’s no disputing it by the participants. Greg L ( talk) 15:25, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and to put an end to all the incessant arguing here about what constitutes a consensus, we have the votes, vote comments, and discussion monitored by a panel of three or five mediators. The mediators would have complete liberty to discuss their impending decision “off line” via IRC and e-mail. Binding mediation based on the majority opinion of the mediators. Well… who’s game? Is there anything unfair about letting a much wider group of Wikipedia editors weigh in on this issue? Greg L ( talk) 06:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I might dispute Headbomb's statement that consensus had been reached but one thing he's got right is that "Things are never settled 'once and for all'." Even if you manage this, there's room for improvement ... barrels of room ... cubic hectometres ... in FCL. Waving some old vote taken some time on some version of some editor's preference will be as unconvincing after this exercise as it is now. JIMp talk· cont 07:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
... Oh the "not a discussion" garbage ... that's much clearer ... I didn't read what you wrote ... maybe I read between the lines ... perhaps if the discussion leads to improvement of FCL it would be worthy of the label "discussion" ... perhaps I remember a discussion in which a number of editors were calling for something as harmless as a parenthetical conversion to SI but was over-ruled by one ... perhaps I've got to get going anyway & see ya 'round. JIMp talk· cont 08:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Whilst we're at it, how about a "Who likes Headbomb's proposal better?" vote? Perhaps we can have a discussion about the relative merits of editing one's proposal in order to address the concerns ... or call them "whims" if you will ... of other editors and which approach best achives progress. JIMp talk· cont 08:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Of course I'll abide by binding mediation, it's binding isn't it? Why indeed are you asking, am I one of those editors who goes about making substantial undiscussed changes to the page? JIMp talk· cont 16:46, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Currently, it says "articles on scientific topics where there is consensus among the contributors not to convert the metric units, in which case the first occurrence of each unit should be linked"
I want to tweak this a little, but I'm not sure about wording:
— Omegatron ( talk) 01:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Is your opposition to this due—at least in part—to your questioning of hidden motives? Let me ask this: If the wording doesn’t look like a backdoor approach to undermine common sense or “Follow current literature”, then does the idea seem to be a sound one on the surface? Greg L ( talk) 04:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
It's a good policy to provide conversions; be they in articles on scientific topics or not, be they to SI/metric or imperial/US, be they what you find in "the literature" or not. I'd love to see Wikipedia metric only, the day all our sources and all our readers are. Linking is not bad per se but we do have a problem with overlinking common units. Omegatron's third point, spell the link out in full, is spot on. JIMp talk· cont 04:54, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh geez. This has nothing to do with SI or IEC or anything; there are no "hidden motives". Most people reading an article about radiation will be unfamiliar with the units used, so we should link them. Most people reading an article about electron energy levels will be unfamiliar with the units used, so we should link them. That's all I'm saying. The policy currently states something about "where there is consensus not to convert from metric". In #1, I'm saying this clause should be removed. Any unit that is unlikely to be familiar to the reader should be linked, regardless of metric or non-metric.
And not every instance of every unit. Just once per unit per article, or maybe twice per unit for a super long article (#2). — Omegatron ( talk) 00:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I also noticed it recommends linking "unit abbreviations that have conflicting meanings in common units systems". Does everyone else agree that we should change both of these so that the guideline just says "link units that may be unfamiliar to the reader"? — Omegatron ( talk) 00:31, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Some of it is entirely inconsistent with the treatment in the rest of the Manual, including the schoolmarm statement at the top. There are quite a few MOS breaches. There's a dispute tag at the top. It does not appear in the equivalent section in the main page of MOS, where all of the treatment of units is otherwise duplicated.
Thus, no one has to take the slightest notice of it. As a first step towards having it accepted, the text will need to be freed of fluff and made MOS-consistent. Then we can begin to negotiate the more substantive matters. TONY (talk) 02:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
My points are "basically 'I don't like it'", are they, "and have been squashed by much stronger arguments", have they? I don't see the name "DavidPaulHamilton" attached to any such arguments ... excuse me for biting a "newbie".
Prove the lack of consensus? It's staring us in the face but, as Tony notes, the burden of proof rests firmly on the party who want policy to change. Show us this consensus. Oh, it's already been shown by Francis. Francis has not shown consensus, he never set out to show consensus and has not claimed to have shown consensus. The dispute has raged ever since this proposal was inserted onto the page, if Francis happened to have overlooked it, what we have here is proof that Francis is human. The dispute is getting hard to overlook now.
"Your lack of substantive reasons opposing the guideline also show it has a consensus." you write, David. Of course, this makes no logical sense but are you keeping track of to whom you're writing? Tony has never opposed the proposal per se. Tony's position; correct me if I'm wrong, Tony; has always simply been that the text does not belong on the page until consensus is reached (and if it is reached it'll need some copy-editing).
A proper reading of that VP discussion does not lead to the conclusion that there exists any form of consensus. The outcome was more along the lines that Greg was not wrong to have introduced the proposal in the way that he did if he believed that his addition was a true reflexion of consensus. I believe that that is what he believed back then. I cannot understand how anyone could believe so now in view of this dispute. Given the clear lack of consensus ... we're debating it right now, right? ... it is hardly appropriate that the proposal remain. Thus Omegatron did nothing inappropriate in removing the text.
JIMp talk· cont 17:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
You don’t have a problem with “Follow current literature” because it “sits like a lump in the middle of MOSNUM” or because it “hasn’t been duplicated over to MOS” or because “it has a {disputed} tag on it” (which you put there). Admit it. You and Jimp have a problem with it because you don’t like what it does, which is call for using the units used in the real world including those disciplines that consistently use non-SI units. “Follow current literature” endorses the practices already observed on Wikipedia as well as the way the real world works and as well as the way all other general-interest, professionally edited encyclopedias handle this very issue. The clear majority of editors here agree that the ‘IEC prefix and SI guerillas’ need to be finally reigned in and it’s time to memorialize on MOSNUM that the wise thing to do is conform with real world and other encyclopedias. You are wrong wrong wrong that we should do otherwise. Some of the computer-related articles here on Wikipedia have no doubt caused several poor unfortunate souls to walk into a computer store and ask for a “computer with three gibibytes of memory so I can run Vista” (only to be met with blank stares and/or laughter). Your arguments that “there was no consensus” amounts only to “you still don’t agree with it”. Now…
“ Fifth draft” has been provided above. Well over a dozen editors had a hand in editing and approving “Follow current literature” and you still refuse to accept the consensus. If you have a problem with “Follow current literature”, edit “Fifth draft” with your ideas and suggestions and let’s have a look at your proposal and give everyone here an opportunity to comment on it and try to improve it and (eventually) put it to a vote. Greg L ( talk) 18:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm all for using the units as used in the source. I'm against the banning, explicite or implicite, of conversions. I also call for considerations regarding consistancy across WP and the use of familar as opposed to obscure expressions to be given due weight. Moreover, I have my doubts as to what we'll be making of this term literature. As to consensus, I honestly don't see it neither for nor against the proposal. JIMp talk· cont 18:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I believe I've been saying "put the source unit first" all along, even before the days of "Follow the current literature". I place accuracy high on the priority list. If we're using "cc", there should be no "conversion" (except to cu in where appropriate) since "cc" is nothing but a non-standard abbreviation for cubic centimetres, 1 cc is 1 cm³ is 1 ml. Similarly I say we wipe out "conversions" from "mbar" to "hPa", use one or the other. JIMp talk· cont 19:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Calling 109 a "billion" flies in the face of logic but I've bitten the bullet on that and added dozens of these mini "billion"s to articles. When {{convert}} puts out a "billion" it's one of these shrunken ones, there isn't even a way (not as yet & there many never be one) of getting a full-strength "billion" out of that template. That's my doing. I'm willing to swallow a little surface ambiguity as a trade-off for increased familiarity. The uno remains unused in the outside world and is thus unfamiliar, why would we use it here? I don't have any strong feelings either way with respect to the IEC prefixes, I've tried to steer clear of that endless war ... but now it's engulfed the whole Units of measurement section. JIMp talk· cont 07:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
{ Quick link to version on MOSNUM}
The following red-div section is a reference version to start with. Please make edits to Fourth draft, below.
Use terminology and symbols commonly employed in the current literature for that subject and level of technicality. When in doubt, use the units of measure, prefixes, unit symbols, number notation, and methods of disambiguation most often employed in reliable periodicals directed to a similar readership.
Wikipedia’s mission is to communicate with minimal confusion so that readers can learn about a subject and are primed as well as possible to learn even more in their studies elsewhere. There are three important elements in determining what terminology and units of measure are best suited for a given article:
Preference for modern units
As an involved administrator, you have no more say than any other ordinary editor here. Further, given the fact that you were the lead proponent of the misguided policy this new one replaces, your opinion can not realistically be viewed as being unbiased. It is obvious on the face of it that there was a clear majority in favor of this; the only possible question is whether that properly meets all the requirements of a Wikipedia-style consensus. But it’s mighty notable that we had an uninvolved editor with plenty of experience in Wikipedia policy issues weigh in on this issue, Francis Schonken, who wrote “A rough consensus seems to have formed” and congratulated me on helping to get the policy on MOSNUM. And that was before the most recent vote. So just pardon me all over the place if I might feel there is some room for legitimate debate on whether or not a consensus was properly arrived at here.
If you want to go to mediation, that’s fine. I actually feel that going to ArbCom for “refusal to accept consensus” is the more appropriate venue. Either way, you make the call. In the mean time, it is absolutely improper of you to delete “Follow current literature.” Go find an uninvolved administrator to remove it. Why would you abuse your power as an administrator against the wishes of so many other editors? Greg L ( talk) 02:28, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I've shown diff links and quotes from policy to demonstrate why this section does not belong on the guideline page. My personal opinion is irrelevant.
It doesn't matter how "out in the open" you were. Inviting only a select group of people who share your point of view is the problem. See Wikipedia:CANVASS#Votestacking
When forming a policy or guideline, you need to reach consensus. Please re-read that page. Consensus does not mean finding a bunch of others that agree with you so that you can overpower your "opponents" and eradicate the thing you don't like, merely by being more persistent and stubborn than others. Wikipedia is not a battleground. Consensus means making a good faith effort to understand where each side is coming from, and fairly representing everyone's concerns in the finished product. Aggressively belittling others and summarily dismissing their opinions as "invalid" or "stupid" demonstrates that you have no interest in actually working towards consensus. You're just here to "win"; to obliterate something you personally despise, regardless of the good reasons for or against it. This is not how Wikipedia works, and anything you manage to push through without true consensus will just be invalidated by others in the future.
Consensus doesn't necessarily mean inviting all 100 people who have discussed this in the past to take part in the current discussion (which is difficult enough to follow as it is), but it does mean that their opinions need to be represented in the consensus decision. They still count, even if they're not actively participating right this second (which is why we don't decide things by votes). In other words, when they come back to this page and say "Hey! When did the guideline change?" it should be followed by "Well, I guess it's not a bad change. I don't object to the new version." Otherwise the argument's just going to start all over again as soon as more people become aware of the "decision". "Wikipedia's decisions are not based on the number of people who showed up and voted a particular way on a particular day; they are based on a system of good reasons."
Correct. And I haven't done anything more than any other ordinary editor would do. I haven't blocked anyone simply because I disagreed with them. I haven't protected the page in my preferred version. I haven't done anything of the sort. If you think I've abused administrative powers, please bring it up on the administrator's noticeboard. Here are the logs of my admin actions ( Omegatron ( talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA)), which should make locating the supposed infractions much easier. — Omegatron ( talk) 23:59, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
You keep repeating this. Can you please explain what you're talking about?
As for the rest, it's been addressed many many times. I'm not going to keep saying the same things over and over to someone who refuses to listen. I've explained why the section needs to be removed in the paragraphs above. Please don't disrupt this guideline by continually re-adding it. — Omegatron ( talk) 22:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
Now I challenge you: Please cite a single Wikipedia policy that ever resulted in this much contentious bickering. Please answer that question. As far as I can tell, the policy to use the IEC prefixes here on Wikipedia has proven to be a record-setting, paradigm of an utter failure and has put Wikipedia in the position of being all by itself on an unwise editorial practice not observed by any other professionally edited encyclopedia. You should have listened to Garrett Talk, who wrote this in 2005: “...and I had never heard of these things [the IEC prefixes] before it was raised on the Pump [ Village pump, which later became Water well], and I've been downloading countless gigs of who-knows-what since 1996. Come back in 2008 when it's an accepted term, or, rather, at which point it's stagnated.”Well, here we are in 2008. Whether you’re willing to accept the obvious or not, the conventional binary prefixes are here to stay in the world’s computing culture and they will be universally used ten years from now. The IEC prefixes have seen no more adoption today than back in 1999 (or 2006). Give it up for God’s sake. Greg L ( talk) 23:24, 25 May 2008 (UTC)
That's a nicely skewed interpretation of history.
So your personal vendetta against me is based on something you believe happened 3 years ago, before you even registered an account?
Here are the actual facts, with diffs to back them up, in case people want to keep dredging this up:
After a disagreement on game console articles (which I have never edited), User:Thax started a discussion about the possibility of a site-wide recommendation. [1] This was then moved to the Village Pump to get a wider viewpoint. [2] (I later moved it off the village pump to the Manual of Style talk page so that it wouldn't be lost, [3] and it now resides in the archives for that page, in Greg L's oddly-named "archive zero". [4])
User:Thax proposed a vote, [5] [6] which I disagreed with. [7] Policy is not decided by vote, and I said we should instead work towards consensus by creating a proposed policy page and editing it directly until it reached a form we could all agree with, at which point it would become a standalone guideline. User:Smyth agreed. [8]
Instead of creating a separate page, User:Thax added his proposal directly to the Manual of Style, [9], trying to summarize everyone's ideas and viewpoints the best he could. [10]
This is not what I suggested, but is not prohibited either. Editing guidelines directly was a condoned method of creating policy, as described in Wikipedia:Policies_and_guidelines#Guidelines, for instance. So I made some minor edits to clean it up, [11] alongside a number of other users, editing it to reach consensus in the wiki way. [12] [13] [14] [15] (Note the lack of revert warring and hostility. The issue wasn't nearly as polarized as it is now; most of us were just trying to gauge what the community thought and making up our own minds as we went.)
Neonumbers then asked for a vote again, [16] and Smyth started one. [17]
I advertised the discussion and vote in a few neutral places, like the Village Pump and the talk pages of articles like kilobyte and Binary prefix, so that we could get even more outside opinion.
Please clarify which of us is the "leader" that "rammed through a policy without consensus"? [18] Are you insinuating that the dozens of other editors who support IEC prefixes have somehow been unduly influenced by me or controlled by me? That they aren't capable of forming or holding their own opinions? You certainly give me a lot of credit.
Yes, 1/4 of people who responded to the discussion were opposed to the proposal (which, again, I did not add or recommend adding to the guideline page). They were free to edit it to their liking or remove it altogether. I suspect they simply didn't care. Most of us aren't nearly as fanatical about this as the likes of you and Fnagaton.
Heh.
— Omegatron ( talk) 00:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
In my opinion Omegatron has good reason to remove something that has never had consensus. The vote, as best I can recall it (it has been archived somewhere), ended with 7 votes in favour and 5 against. Since when is 7:5 considered a consensus? The main arguments against were eloquently explained by Jimp. Why are they any less valid than the arguments in favour? Nevertheless, I think Headbomb is close to a breakthrough here. I suggest we focus on resolving the remaining problems with the new text. Then all this will become water under the bridge Thunderbird2 ( talk) 11:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
There are clearly two problems here: One is that the combatants here are trying to define for themselves what constitutes a consensus. The second is that there are far too few participants in this issue. The whole IEC prefix issue doesn’t doesn’t get the juices flowing for the common editor. Oh sure, they might think “Follow current literature is wise, but most editors just don’t have the stomach for all the damned bickering that necessarily goes with resolving this issue. So, you know what I think? I think that if we have a nice, simple, no-bickering vote on “Follow current literature” and present the vote to a w-i-d-e spectrum of Wikipedia’s editors, the vast majority will think “makes sense to me,” and vote accordingly. You know what else I think? I think you guys know that, don’t you? That just might account for this consistent resistance to agreeing to binding mediation and to conducting a new, sweeping vote. I think I’ve just had my belly full of a voiciferous minority of editors making Wikipedia look brain damanged by running off using weird units of measure no reader even recognizes because it’s not used in the real world and no professionally edited encyclopedia uses them! And you guys still support this train wreck of a policy! Unbelievable.
And right now, I’m not buying into this “breakthrough” business from you; just pardon me all over the place but I’ve seen that kind of language out of you before and it never went anywhere. You just happen to be the only editor who gave such a piss-poor vote on the purple box. If we want a “breakthrough” upgrade your vote, otherwise I’m just not seeing any “breakthrough” here, just stalling. It’s beginning to become ever clearer in my mind that proper solution is to bite the bullet and invest the effort to have one, seriously big vote, the outcome of which is mediated so there’s no disputing it by the participants. Greg L ( talk) 15:25, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and to put an end to all the incessant arguing here about what constitutes a consensus, we have the votes, vote comments, and discussion monitored by a panel of three or five mediators. The mediators would have complete liberty to discuss their impending decision “off line” via IRC and e-mail. Binding mediation based on the majority opinion of the mediators. Well… who’s game? Is there anything unfair about letting a much wider group of Wikipedia editors weigh in on this issue? Greg L ( talk) 06:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
I might dispute Headbomb's statement that consensus had been reached but one thing he's got right is that "Things are never settled 'once and for all'." Even if you manage this, there's room for improvement ... barrels of room ... cubic hectometres ... in FCL. Waving some old vote taken some time on some version of some editor's preference will be as unconvincing after this exercise as it is now. JIMp talk· cont 07:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
... Oh the "not a discussion" garbage ... that's much clearer ... I didn't read what you wrote ... maybe I read between the lines ... perhaps if the discussion leads to improvement of FCL it would be worthy of the label "discussion" ... perhaps I remember a discussion in which a number of editors were calling for something as harmless as a parenthetical conversion to SI but was over-ruled by one ... perhaps I've got to get going anyway & see ya 'round. JIMp talk· cont 08:14, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Whilst we're at it, how about a "Who likes Headbomb's proposal better?" vote? Perhaps we can have a discussion about the relative merits of editing one's proposal in order to address the concerns ... or call them "whims" if you will ... of other editors and which approach best achives progress. JIMp talk· cont 08:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Of course I'll abide by binding mediation, it's binding isn't it? Why indeed are you asking, am I one of those editors who goes about making substantial undiscussed changes to the page? JIMp talk· cont 16:46, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Currently, it says "articles on scientific topics where there is consensus among the contributors not to convert the metric units, in which case the first occurrence of each unit should be linked"
I want to tweak this a little, but I'm not sure about wording:
— Omegatron ( talk) 01:56, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Is your opposition to this due—at least in part—to your questioning of hidden motives? Let me ask this: If the wording doesn’t look like a backdoor approach to undermine common sense or “Follow current literature”, then does the idea seem to be a sound one on the surface? Greg L ( talk) 04:03, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
It's a good policy to provide conversions; be they in articles on scientific topics or not, be they to SI/metric or imperial/US, be they what you find in "the literature" or not. I'd love to see Wikipedia metric only, the day all our sources and all our readers are. Linking is not bad per se but we do have a problem with overlinking common units. Omegatron's third point, spell the link out in full, is spot on. JIMp talk· cont 04:54, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Oh geez. This has nothing to do with SI or IEC or anything; there are no "hidden motives". Most people reading an article about radiation will be unfamiliar with the units used, so we should link them. Most people reading an article about electron energy levels will be unfamiliar with the units used, so we should link them. That's all I'm saying. The policy currently states something about "where there is consensus not to convert from metric". In #1, I'm saying this clause should be removed. Any unit that is unlikely to be familiar to the reader should be linked, regardless of metric or non-metric.
And not every instance of every unit. Just once per unit per article, or maybe twice per unit for a super long article (#2). — Omegatron ( talk) 00:13, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
I also noticed it recommends linking "unit abbreviations that have conflicting meanings in common units systems". Does everyone else agree that we should change both of these so that the guideline just says "link units that may be unfamiliar to the reader"? — Omegatron ( talk) 00:31, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
Some of it is entirely inconsistent with the treatment in the rest of the Manual, including the schoolmarm statement at the top. There are quite a few MOS breaches. There's a dispute tag at the top. It does not appear in the equivalent section in the main page of MOS, where all of the treatment of units is otherwise duplicated.
Thus, no one has to take the slightest notice of it. As a first step towards having it accepted, the text will need to be freed of fluff and made MOS-consistent. Then we can begin to negotiate the more substantive matters. TONY (talk) 02:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
My points are "basically 'I don't like it'", are they, "and have been squashed by much stronger arguments", have they? I don't see the name "DavidPaulHamilton" attached to any such arguments ... excuse me for biting a "newbie".
Prove the lack of consensus? It's staring us in the face but, as Tony notes, the burden of proof rests firmly on the party who want policy to change. Show us this consensus. Oh, it's already been shown by Francis. Francis has not shown consensus, he never set out to show consensus and has not claimed to have shown consensus. The dispute has raged ever since this proposal was inserted onto the page, if Francis happened to have overlooked it, what we have here is proof that Francis is human. The dispute is getting hard to overlook now.
"Your lack of substantive reasons opposing the guideline also show it has a consensus." you write, David. Of course, this makes no logical sense but are you keeping track of to whom you're writing? Tony has never opposed the proposal per se. Tony's position; correct me if I'm wrong, Tony; has always simply been that the text does not belong on the page until consensus is reached (and if it is reached it'll need some copy-editing).
A proper reading of that VP discussion does not lead to the conclusion that there exists any form of consensus. The outcome was more along the lines that Greg was not wrong to have introduced the proposal in the way that he did if he believed that his addition was a true reflexion of consensus. I believe that that is what he believed back then. I cannot understand how anyone could believe so now in view of this dispute. Given the clear lack of consensus ... we're debating it right now, right? ... it is hardly appropriate that the proposal remain. Thus Omegatron did nothing inappropriate in removing the text.
JIMp talk· cont 17:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
You don’t have a problem with “Follow current literature” because it “sits like a lump in the middle of MOSNUM” or because it “hasn’t been duplicated over to MOS” or because “it has a {disputed} tag on it” (which you put there). Admit it. You and Jimp have a problem with it because you don’t like what it does, which is call for using the units used in the real world including those disciplines that consistently use non-SI units. “Follow current literature” endorses the practices already observed on Wikipedia as well as the way the real world works and as well as the way all other general-interest, professionally edited encyclopedias handle this very issue. The clear majority of editors here agree that the ‘IEC prefix and SI guerillas’ need to be finally reigned in and it’s time to memorialize on MOSNUM that the wise thing to do is conform with real world and other encyclopedias. You are wrong wrong wrong that we should do otherwise. Some of the computer-related articles here on Wikipedia have no doubt caused several poor unfortunate souls to walk into a computer store and ask for a “computer with three gibibytes of memory so I can run Vista” (only to be met with blank stares and/or laughter). Your arguments that “there was no consensus” amounts only to “you still don’t agree with it”. Now…
“ Fifth draft” has been provided above. Well over a dozen editors had a hand in editing and approving “Follow current literature” and you still refuse to accept the consensus. If you have a problem with “Follow current literature”, edit “Fifth draft” with your ideas and suggestions and let’s have a look at your proposal and give everyone here an opportunity to comment on it and try to improve it and (eventually) put it to a vote. Greg L ( talk) 18:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm all for using the units as used in the source. I'm against the banning, explicite or implicite, of conversions. I also call for considerations regarding consistancy across WP and the use of familar as opposed to obscure expressions to be given due weight. Moreover, I have my doubts as to what we'll be making of this term literature. As to consensus, I honestly don't see it neither for nor against the proposal. JIMp talk· cont 18:42, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I believe I've been saying "put the source unit first" all along, even before the days of "Follow the current literature". I place accuracy high on the priority list. If we're using "cc", there should be no "conversion" (except to cu in where appropriate) since "cc" is nothing but a non-standard abbreviation for cubic centimetres, 1 cc is 1 cm³ is 1 ml. Similarly I say we wipe out "conversions" from "mbar" to "hPa", use one or the other. JIMp talk· cont 19:21, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Calling 109 a "billion" flies in the face of logic but I've bitten the bullet on that and added dozens of these mini "billion"s to articles. When {{convert}} puts out a "billion" it's one of these shrunken ones, there isn't even a way (not as yet & there many never be one) of getting a full-strength "billion" out of that template. That's my doing. I'm willing to swallow a little surface ambiguity as a trade-off for increased familiarity. The uno remains unused in the outside world and is thus unfamiliar, why would we use it here? I don't have any strong feelings either way with respect to the IEC prefixes, I've tried to steer clear of that endless war ... but now it's engulfed the whole Units of measurement section. JIMp talk· cont 07:23, 20 May 2008 (UTC)