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Conversions clutter the text, making it slightly less readable. While there are reasons for persisting with the requirement to convert main units to the other system in non-scientific articles, I contend that and exception be made for scientific articles. These articles must already use metrics as their main units, and given that:
The current text is:
- Conversions to and from metric and imperial/US units are generally provided, except where inserting a conversion would make a common expression awkward (“The four-minute mile”).
The proposal is that this be:
- Conversions to and from metric and imperial/US units are generally provided. There are two exceptions:
- where inserting a conversion would make a common expression awkward (“The four-minute mile”);
- scientific articles, where there is consensus among the contributors not to convert the metric units, in which case the first occurrence of each unit should be linked.
We'd need to change the example for precision, two points down, to a non-scientific one, to be consistent with this change.
I seek consensus for this alteration. Tony 14:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) MJC, I'll insert "highly" ("highly scientific") into the text if it's going to be a deal-breaker, but the epithet is fuzzy—where exactly is the boundary between highly and non-highly scientific, just as where is the boundary between scientific and non-scientific? I reiterate that the word "scientific" (alone) is already used in the section. No one has complained about that distinction. I don't think that the explicit use of the "drug" article will solve the boundary problem, so I'd rather not clutter the text. I put it to you that a case-by-case consensus (which may be easily generated in many cases) is your safeguard.
Let's examine the implications of the short proposal in further detail. The need to treat each article for which this might be an issue (a small minority) separately is why the proposal requires the consensus of contributors, even where it's clearly a scientific article. SandyGeorgia has raised the issue of a volcano in Hawaii: height in metres, or in feet with conversion? Contributors who want unconverted metrics would have to overcome two hurdles:
I put to you all that these are significant safeguards. No one will be mass-removing conversions in scientific articles without gaining consensus to do so on the talk page. All of this is implicit in the short text of the proposal.
Wikidemo, you're quite right about the comma—my blooper.
I see no reason to add a point "encouraging" the use of metrics. We've already set out precisely the circumstances where metrics and imperial are the main units. Lightmouse, I now think your proposal is too radical, except that your point about direct quotations has merit. May I offer an alternative wording?
"Conversions required for units cited within direct quotations should appear within square brackets in the quote."
Here's the proposal again. I'm posting a note at MOS with a link to this discussion.
*Conversions to and from metric and imperial/US units are generally provided. There are two exceptions:
- scientific articles where there is consensus among the contributors not to convert the metric units, in which case the first occurrence of each unit should be linked;
- where inserting a conversion would make a common expression awkward (“The four-minute mile”);
And no, it's not conceived as the start of a slippery slope to ban imperial units from WP; that clearly will not gain consensus. This is an overdue modification for a subgroup of articles. Tony 02:12, 25 August 2007 (UTC) PS Does the addition of "technical and" before "scientific articles" add anything? Needs advice. Tony 02:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I must admit I'm quite amazed about the reaction here. The suggestion that an article must be highly scientific I just don't get. Take the Moon for example. That article should not have imperial units in it at all. The moon is 384,403 km from the earth. Why list it in miles at all? It's a big number and even I cannot visualise how big that is. Listing it in miles doesn't help anyone. Now on the other hand if I need a number to do a calculation then that's a different story - and in that case the number you'll need will be the metric unit. Now other units like light-second and astronomical unit are much more relevant (as they are used by astronomers) and editors may want them there - even though they are not SI (but certainly derived from SI). Any article that is remotely scientific should not have imperial units and any articles on medicines it could be dangerous to. For example, if the maximum dose of some drug is some volume expressed in millilitres and someone from the UK converts that to Fluid ounces then that would be an overdose for someone in the US because the UK Fluid ounce and the UK Fluid ounce differ. By the way - which imperial unit do you use? The UK, the US, troy, avoirdupois, apothecary?
For the average person it takes one hour to get an understanding of the units of the metric system (see http://www.metricationmatters.com). This is quicker than getting to use Wikipedia itself! To say that it is too hard really dumbs down your audience. People come here to learn. If you have links on your metric units people will pick them up very quickly. Jim77742 02:44, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, didn't a US satellite costing squillions crash into Mars because someone mixed up imperial and metrics? Same for the lens on the Hubble telescope? Tony 03:48, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Allen, you seem to have ignored the requirement for the first occurrence to be linked. If that is not good enough, what is? And why do you accuse me of disguising something? Please explain yourself. Tony 12:59, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) I came here following Tony's request for input at wikiproject Physics. I support this, it is already the de facto position for many (most?) science articles (because science is metric globally). Also, any changes to MOS to give editors more discretion is a good thing. PaddyLeahy 15:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
We should simply do whatever is customary in the literature. The metric system is preferred, simply because that's the case in the real world. However, in many fields this is not the case like e.g. in engineering. Also, I've noticed that many wiki science articles use SI units in a way that is i.m.o. not a good reflection of what the real world practice is. E.g., in theoretical physics it is customary to use CGS units and not SI units. The reason is that this simplifies equations for electromagnetism. But in the wiki elecromagnetism and special relativity articles SI units are used. Especially for the special relaivity article this is extremely awkward.
Also, in particle physics it is customary to use natural units (h-bar = c = 1). Masses are almost always given in units of GeV or MeV and not in GeV/c^2. The latter would be dimensionally equivalent to the kg, but in high energy physics people don't care about that. Assigning different dimensions to Length, Time and Mass is ultimately a convention that is not useful in fundamental physics. Count Iblis 18:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe this proposal would be appropriate. The units that are appropriate to one article are not necessarily appropriate to the next. In some articles, like four minute mile, there is an obvious need for miles and minutes to be the appropriate unit. However, nobody wants to measure the speed of light in miles per minute, even if the conversion could be made. I think conversions should be included on a per-article basis, and the "default" when no consensus has been developed (articles with few active editors) should be as proposed here. -- Cheeser1 20:50, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Quite seriously, we should not give more than advice about metric. It's appropriate for some articles to use metric alone. It's not clear to me that the conversion helps four-minute mile, and it may be worse than a link would be. One of the first steps in improving grain (measure) would be to start it with a definition in terms of the Anglo-American system; conversion to metric belongs in the second paragraph. Also, there have been other values, both quite close to this and much further. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I support this proposal as long as it's clear that it's for science articles, determined by talk page consensus. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 23:19, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Support: As stated above, this is the de facto standard anyway - and I firmly believe that the style guide should reflect current practice. I wrote dozens of new articles on chemical compounds using purely metric units 2-3 years ago, and no one has even suggested adding in non-metric units to any of them - no one reading an article like praseodymium(III) chloride would expect anything non-metric. There must be tens of thousands of articles like this. If an article is likely be read by a non-scientist (e.g., sulfuric acid), it may be appropriate to include some non-metric units, but that's what the "consensus" part allows for IMHO. (I presume that was what was meant by the "scientific vs highly scientific" distinction above.) Walkerma 04:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Like Walkerma says, this has been the de facto rule for years anyway. This is just a tempest in a teapot. In some cases, especially for "popular science" topics, conversions may help. But in others they are utterly unnecessary. Use editorial discretion/common sense/consensus on a case-by-case basis. -- Itub 06:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
In scientific articles, priority order should be the standard units of the domain (for instance, eV instead of J in nuclear physics, parsec in astronomy, etc.) then the SI system (if universally used in the domain), then the different non-standard commonly used units with conversions (for instance, who would use Kelvin degrees in meteorology? In such a context it would probably preferable to present values both in °F and °C). It seems to me that the problem in Science is different from Imperial vs Metrics, that it will not only appear in the 'English language' context only and that it would be solved by easy consensus on any real example. pom 16:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll support this. However, conversions seem to be one of those inputs that people like to insert (at least in astronomy articles). So it may be difficult to "enforce" consistently. — RJH ( talk) 20:35, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Support the proposal by Tony. Lightmouse 16:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Support the proposal by Tony. Jim77742 10:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
YES:
APPEAR NOT TO OBJECT:
NO:
Fifteen editors have declared support, many of them American and some in favour of a more substantial change; three more appear not to object. Four Five are opposed. The participation on opposite sides of a PaddyLeahy and a PatLeahy is strange, but I take it at face value.
Although this is not a raw vote, an 18–45 margin is significant. IMV, the "de facto already" argument is substantive, and I believe that there are sufficient safeguards to allay the fears of those who are uneasy about the change. Unanimity would have been desirable, but I think that WPians would generally consider that this represents reasonable consensus in favour of the proposal.
Unless the situation changes dramatically, I'll implement the change at MOSNUM and MOS next Saturday, after eight days. Tony 13:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 75 | ← | Archive 79 | Archive 80 | Archive 81 | Archive 82 | Archive 83 | → | Archive 85 |
Conversions clutter the text, making it slightly less readable. While there are reasons for persisting with the requirement to convert main units to the other system in non-scientific articles, I contend that and exception be made for scientific articles. These articles must already use metrics as their main units, and given that:
The current text is:
- Conversions to and from metric and imperial/US units are generally provided, except where inserting a conversion would make a common expression awkward (“The four-minute mile”).
The proposal is that this be:
- Conversions to and from metric and imperial/US units are generally provided. There are two exceptions:
- where inserting a conversion would make a common expression awkward (“The four-minute mile”);
- scientific articles, where there is consensus among the contributors not to convert the metric units, in which case the first occurrence of each unit should be linked.
We'd need to change the example for precision, two points down, to a non-scientific one, to be consistent with this change.
I seek consensus for this alteration. Tony 14:58, 24 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) MJC, I'll insert "highly" ("highly scientific") into the text if it's going to be a deal-breaker, but the epithet is fuzzy—where exactly is the boundary between highly and non-highly scientific, just as where is the boundary between scientific and non-scientific? I reiterate that the word "scientific" (alone) is already used in the section. No one has complained about that distinction. I don't think that the explicit use of the "drug" article will solve the boundary problem, so I'd rather not clutter the text. I put it to you that a case-by-case consensus (which may be easily generated in many cases) is your safeguard.
Let's examine the implications of the short proposal in further detail. The need to treat each article for which this might be an issue (a small minority) separately is why the proposal requires the consensus of contributors, even where it's clearly a scientific article. SandyGeorgia has raised the issue of a volcano in Hawaii: height in metres, or in feet with conversion? Contributors who want unconverted metrics would have to overcome two hurdles:
I put to you all that these are significant safeguards. No one will be mass-removing conversions in scientific articles without gaining consensus to do so on the talk page. All of this is implicit in the short text of the proposal.
Wikidemo, you're quite right about the comma—my blooper.
I see no reason to add a point "encouraging" the use of metrics. We've already set out precisely the circumstances where metrics and imperial are the main units. Lightmouse, I now think your proposal is too radical, except that your point about direct quotations has merit. May I offer an alternative wording?
"Conversions required for units cited within direct quotations should appear within square brackets in the quote."
Here's the proposal again. I'm posting a note at MOS with a link to this discussion.
*Conversions to and from metric and imperial/US units are generally provided. There are two exceptions:
- scientific articles where there is consensus among the contributors not to convert the metric units, in which case the first occurrence of each unit should be linked;
- where inserting a conversion would make a common expression awkward (“The four-minute mile”);
And no, it's not conceived as the start of a slippery slope to ban imperial units from WP; that clearly will not gain consensus. This is an overdue modification for a subgroup of articles. Tony 02:12, 25 August 2007 (UTC) PS Does the addition of "technical and" before "scientific articles" add anything? Needs advice. Tony 02:22, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I must admit I'm quite amazed about the reaction here. The suggestion that an article must be highly scientific I just don't get. Take the Moon for example. That article should not have imperial units in it at all. The moon is 384,403 km from the earth. Why list it in miles at all? It's a big number and even I cannot visualise how big that is. Listing it in miles doesn't help anyone. Now on the other hand if I need a number to do a calculation then that's a different story - and in that case the number you'll need will be the metric unit. Now other units like light-second and astronomical unit are much more relevant (as they are used by astronomers) and editors may want them there - even though they are not SI (but certainly derived from SI). Any article that is remotely scientific should not have imperial units and any articles on medicines it could be dangerous to. For example, if the maximum dose of some drug is some volume expressed in millilitres and someone from the UK converts that to Fluid ounces then that would be an overdose for someone in the US because the UK Fluid ounce and the UK Fluid ounce differ. By the way - which imperial unit do you use? The UK, the US, troy, avoirdupois, apothecary?
For the average person it takes one hour to get an understanding of the units of the metric system (see http://www.metricationmatters.com). This is quicker than getting to use Wikipedia itself! To say that it is too hard really dumbs down your audience. People come here to learn. If you have links on your metric units people will pick them up very quickly. Jim77742 02:44, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Yes, didn't a US satellite costing squillions crash into Mars because someone mixed up imperial and metrics? Same for the lens on the Hubble telescope? Tony 03:48, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Allen, you seem to have ignored the requirement for the first occurrence to be linked. If that is not good enough, what is? And why do you accuse me of disguising something? Please explain yourself. Tony 12:59, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
(outdent) I came here following Tony's request for input at wikiproject Physics. I support this, it is already the de facto position for many (most?) science articles (because science is metric globally). Also, any changes to MOS to give editors more discretion is a good thing. PaddyLeahy 15:46, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
We should simply do whatever is customary in the literature. The metric system is preferred, simply because that's the case in the real world. However, in many fields this is not the case like e.g. in engineering. Also, I've noticed that many wiki science articles use SI units in a way that is i.m.o. not a good reflection of what the real world practice is. E.g., in theoretical physics it is customary to use CGS units and not SI units. The reason is that this simplifies equations for electromagnetism. But in the wiki elecromagnetism and special relativity articles SI units are used. Especially for the special relaivity article this is extremely awkward.
Also, in particle physics it is customary to use natural units (h-bar = c = 1). Masses are almost always given in units of GeV or MeV and not in GeV/c^2. The latter would be dimensionally equivalent to the kg, but in high energy physics people don't care about that. Assigning different dimensions to Length, Time and Mass is ultimately a convention that is not useful in fundamental physics. Count Iblis 18:56, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe this proposal would be appropriate. The units that are appropriate to one article are not necessarily appropriate to the next. In some articles, like four minute mile, there is an obvious need for miles and minutes to be the appropriate unit. However, nobody wants to measure the speed of light in miles per minute, even if the conversion could be made. I think conversions should be included on a per-article basis, and the "default" when no consensus has been developed (articles with few active editors) should be as proposed here. -- Cheeser1 20:50, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Quite seriously, we should not give more than advice about metric. It's appropriate for some articles to use metric alone. It's not clear to me that the conversion helps four-minute mile, and it may be worse than a link would be. One of the first steps in improving grain (measure) would be to start it with a definition in terms of the Anglo-American system; conversion to metric belongs in the second paragraph. Also, there have been other values, both quite close to this and much further. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 22:31, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
I support this proposal as long as it's clear that it's for science articles, determined by talk page consensus. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 23:19, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
Support: As stated above, this is the de facto standard anyway - and I firmly believe that the style guide should reflect current practice. I wrote dozens of new articles on chemical compounds using purely metric units 2-3 years ago, and no one has even suggested adding in non-metric units to any of them - no one reading an article like praseodymium(III) chloride would expect anything non-metric. There must be tens of thousands of articles like this. If an article is likely be read by a non-scientist (e.g., sulfuric acid), it may be appropriate to include some non-metric units, but that's what the "consensus" part allows for IMHO. (I presume that was what was meant by the "scientific vs highly scientific" distinction above.) Walkerma 04:18, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
Like Walkerma says, this has been the de facto rule for years anyway. This is just a tempest in a teapot. In some cases, especially for "popular science" topics, conversions may help. But in others they are utterly unnecessary. Use editorial discretion/common sense/consensus on a case-by-case basis. -- Itub 06:44, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
In scientific articles, priority order should be the standard units of the domain (for instance, eV instead of J in nuclear physics, parsec in astronomy, etc.) then the SI system (if universally used in the domain), then the different non-standard commonly used units with conversions (for instance, who would use Kelvin degrees in meteorology? In such a context it would probably preferable to present values both in °F and °C). It seems to me that the problem in Science is different from Imperial vs Metrics, that it will not only appear in the 'English language' context only and that it would be solved by easy consensus on any real example. pom 16:59, 26 August 2007 (UTC)
I'll support this. However, conversions seem to be one of those inputs that people like to insert (at least in astronomy articles). So it may be difficult to "enforce" consistently. — RJH ( talk) 20:35, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
Support the proposal by Tony. Lightmouse 16:11, 28 August 2007 (UTC)
Support the proposal by Tony. Jim77742 10:17, 29 August 2007 (UTC)
YES:
APPEAR NOT TO OBJECT:
NO:
Fifteen editors have declared support, many of them American and some in favour of a more substantial change; three more appear not to object. Four Five are opposed. The participation on opposite sides of a PaddyLeahy and a PatLeahy is strange, but I take it at face value.
Although this is not a raw vote, an 18–45 margin is significant. IMV, the "de facto already" argument is substantive, and I believe that there are sufficient safeguards to allay the fears of those who are uneasy about the change. Unanimity would have been desirable, but I think that WPians would generally consider that this represents reasonable consensus in favour of the proposal.
Unless the situation changes dramatically, I'll implement the change at MOSNUM and MOS next Saturday, after eight days. Tony 13:04, 30 August 2007 (UTC)