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I can't find out a policy concerning time intervals.. think about a sport competition.
What about 22 seconds and 7 tenths? 22.7 / 22.70
What about 4 min and 22.7 seconds? 4 m 22.7 / 4 min 22.7 / 4'22"70
What if you take into account hours?
Don't bite newcomers,
Marra 23:53, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
That's a very good question, Marra.
My take is that an interval of a time is a quantity, and is therefore governed by the "Units of measurement section" rather than the "Times" section, which aims to do with times of the day. Therefore, in prose, it should be expressed as "22.7 seconds" or "22.70 seconds" (depending on the accuracy of the measurement as Centrx said). Likewise, for minutes, "4 minutes 22.7 seconds" or "4 minutes and 22.7 seconds". If in a table or infobox, the symbols are min and s respectively (SI), though "sec" might be more appropriate — personally I much prefer "s".
It would help if you gave us a pointer to the article itself so that we can understand the context. Good job with pointing out the lack of clarity there. Neonumbers 03:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
You'd certainly be right to say that the format should be consistent!
While it would be possible to argue that the true meaning of 3:46 (and, for that matter, 3:46.29) can be determined based on context, I would still prefer to avoid the risk. In my opinion, 3 min 46.29 s is more readable than 3:46.29—which is of course simply opinion.
It is best to spell out units as 3 minutes 46.29 seconds, but looking at that article, it looks as if it would become rather cumbersome. (Personally, I think the article focuses too much on the little things like times and details, but that's another issue and not one for us.) It might be fair to abbreviate units here, but I would still prefer against 3:46.29, except in extended tables (of more than, say, ten rows). My two cents. Neonumbers 07:49, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Well.. I did a quick survey on
FINA and
IAAF websites, it turns out that the format hh:mm:ss.xx (with xx I mean 1/100th) is the one actually used.
This format is never ambiguous (3:46 can't exists since for a such short race hundredth are considerd, so 3:46.29) and rarely heavy to read (since you never go from hours to hundredth).
Choosing the format for wikipedia you should consider that this kind of articles are often filled with a lot of timing info so compactness is an issue. By the way I wouldn't say that these infos are details! Believe me that these are really interesting things for a fan.
Marra 16:36, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
For a FA-candidate, one reviewer continues to object on the grounds that the dates on which a cited source was accessed as mentioned in the footnote/citation should be linked up. I refuse do to this, as the nominator and chief contributor to the FA-candidate because it's just ludicrous given that this is just a "guideline" and that it would violate Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context in that linking up such dates will not be relevant to the article's context or aid or facilitate in any way a reader's understanding of the article. So I ask the following:
I thank you in advance for your answers and assistance. — ExplorerCDT 18:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
So for most units (which go after the number) we have a clear guideline to use an nbsp space between number and unit. For currency symbols in front of the number, there is no such guideline - and the examples in this manual are not consistent:
...so GB pound and Renminbi both have spaces - but the others don't? Where there is a space, it's not a nbsp space? I can see why we might want a space between GBP/ RMB and the number - it looks weird with the GB£ form - and why is it any different than US$ in this regard? When there is a space - should it be an nbsp? I think so - we don't want it split from the number by a newline. Help! SteveBaker 00:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
*Within a context or a list, style should be consistent. Example: There were 5 cats, 12 dogs, and 32 birds. or There were five cats, twelve dogs, and thirty-two birds.
Is there a clearer definition of "context"? Something like "He is nth place in RBI (three-digit number) and nth place in stolen bases (two-digit number)" would be confusing because it looks like there are two contexts intertwined (and often viewed as one context). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vic226 ( talk • contribs) 18:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC).
Not only does the the Manual of Style recommend SI (metric) units of measure for science-related articles, but also: a Wikipedia goal is to present a world-wide view, see:
Because only Burma, Liberia, and the United States have not adopted the metric system as their official non-voluntary system [1], it seems appropriate to use the Metric System first (with the US Customary Sytem in parentheses) in most Wikipedia articles.
The US did "officially" adopt the metric system in 1975 (see Metrication in the United States). And, in 1988, the United States Omnibus Trade and Competitiveness Act designated the metric system as "the preferred system". But it calls for a voluntary conversion: the 1988 legislation states that the Federal Government has a responsibility to assist industry in voluntarily conversion.
Please edit the project page—reversion isn't particularly helpful.-- Lesikar 20:34, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually the U.S. doesn't have an official measurement system just like it doesn't have an offical language. The English system is used because of inertia. It actually adopted the metric system in 1866 when it ratified the Treaty of the Meter.
For consistency and ease that if it is under a category that defines in metric units then all things related to the category should be in metric also and vice versa for English units. For example the Category:Skyscapers by height are listed in meters but include U.S. buildings. Must we make it harder to compare U.S. buildings with other buildings around the world by having a separate subcategory of heights in feet? The infoboxes have primary English/secondary metric. This defeats the purpose of dividing buildings of certain heights in meters.
Another category to exclusively use metric is when talking about antenna heights, broadcasting engineers use metric units like the watt. The height of the transmitting antenna must be roughly half of the wavelength to transmit properly, which is measured in meters. In early broacasting, frequency was measured in meters not kilohertz or megahertz, a variation of hertz in multiples of 1000 or 1,000,000 respectively. This is also why antenna heights should be in meters also. — SirChan 09:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Which one should we standardize on? -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 10:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
So, neither " May, 1968" nor " May of 1968" as page name for the content (but both can be redirects of course). And in all other articles you use what is most appropriate. Which may be "May of 1968" or "May, 1968" as you choose, for example for something that happened in the US, and has no relation to what is described in the May 1968 article. -- Francis Schonken 11:08, 8 January 2007 (UTC)If a time indicator is used in the title of an article on an event that doesn't recur at regular intervals (or didn't recur at all) there's no "standard format" for the representation of the time indicator, so there is for instance: Crisis of the Third Century; German Crusade, 1096 (one of the developments of the First Crusade); May 1968, etc... The format of the date depends, in these cases, from established practice in history books and the like. In general, however, abbreviations for years or months are avoided (e.g.,
May '68→ May 1968); for centuries numerals are given in text, capitalised (e.g.,Crisis of the 3rd century→ Crisis of the Third Century)
Oops, and then I also just noticed this in Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Incorrect date formats:
...which seems to make this discussion moot (as far as the current content of the MoS is concerned - or was there an intention to change that?) -- Francis Schonken 12:22, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I think it's a little inflexible to disallow 1pm and 7am. Why insist on dots when the language has undergone a clear shift to removing them in initialisms such as NATO, NASA, and BBC? Only U dot S dot survives, in the US alone, since other English-speakers have lost the dots in that one. Tony 11:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The guideline is deliberately inflexible to encourage consistency. For all it's worth, am, a.m., AM, or A.M. could well have been chosen at random; however, I am still of the position that a.m. would be the best option. From what I have seen, none of those four options is any more common than another, and all are equally accurate and understandable. However, for one encyclopedia, one format should be chosen.
The difference between a.m. and an acronym is that acronyms are all in uppercase, thereby making it clear that it is an acronym, whereas the same does not hold for a.m.. I do not see this as comparable to acronyms: I see them as entirely independent situations. "a.m.", in my opinion, looks neater and more obvious that it is an abbreviation of something. ExplorerCDT provided a good (better) explanation (from his fourth sentence onwards).
The Chicago Manual of Style recommends either "a.m." or "AM" (in small caps). For obvious reasons, the latter wouldn't really work here.
In terms of application, I would encourage everyone to try not to think of the manual in terms of "working" or "ignored", but as guideline of good and consistent style that articles will eventually find their way to. The time guideline is the relatively new one, and times are not often encountered in articles (at least, not in my experience), so I would fully understand that most times don't follow it yet. Editors are not obliged to follow the manual of style, and for something uncommon like this I wouldn't expect most editors to even know about it. Neonumbers 23:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
What about date ranges? I ran into 14-15 May 1994. Either May 14- 15, 1994 nor 14- 15 May 1994 won't work for user with different preferance. Is this addressed? Thank you.-- Pethr 03:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 60 | Archive 61 | Archive 62 | Archive 63 | Archive 64 | Archive 65 | → | Archive 70 |
I can't find out a policy concerning time intervals.. think about a sport competition.
What about 22 seconds and 7 tenths? 22.7 / 22.70
What about 4 min and 22.7 seconds? 4 m 22.7 / 4 min 22.7 / 4'22"70
What if you take into account hours?
Don't bite newcomers,
Marra 23:53, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
That's a very good question, Marra.
My take is that an interval of a time is a quantity, and is therefore governed by the "Units of measurement section" rather than the "Times" section, which aims to do with times of the day. Therefore, in prose, it should be expressed as "22.7 seconds" or "22.70 seconds" (depending on the accuracy of the measurement as Centrx said). Likewise, for minutes, "4 minutes 22.7 seconds" or "4 minutes and 22.7 seconds". If in a table or infobox, the symbols are min and s respectively (SI), though "sec" might be more appropriate — personally I much prefer "s".
It would help if you gave us a pointer to the article itself so that we can understand the context. Good job with pointing out the lack of clarity there. Neonumbers 03:14, 31 December 2006 (UTC)
You'd certainly be right to say that the format should be consistent!
While it would be possible to argue that the true meaning of 3:46 (and, for that matter, 3:46.29) can be determined based on context, I would still prefer to avoid the risk. In my opinion, 3 min 46.29 s is more readable than 3:46.29—which is of course simply opinion.
It is best to spell out units as 3 minutes 46.29 seconds, but looking at that article, it looks as if it would become rather cumbersome. (Personally, I think the article focuses too much on the little things like times and details, but that's another issue and not one for us.) It might be fair to abbreviate units here, but I would still prefer against 3:46.29, except in extended tables (of more than, say, ten rows). My two cents. Neonumbers 07:49, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
Well.. I did a quick survey on
FINA and
IAAF websites, it turns out that the format hh:mm:ss.xx (with xx I mean 1/100th) is the one actually used.
This format is never ambiguous (3:46 can't exists since for a such short race hundredth are considerd, so 3:46.29) and rarely heavy to read (since you never go from hours to hundredth).
Choosing the format for wikipedia you should consider that this kind of articles are often filled with a lot of timing info so compactness is an issue. By the way I wouldn't say that these infos are details! Believe me that these are really interesting things for a fan.
Marra 16:36, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
For a FA-candidate, one reviewer continues to object on the grounds that the dates on which a cited source was accessed as mentioned in the footnote/citation should be linked up. I refuse do to this, as the nominator and chief contributor to the FA-candidate because it's just ludicrous given that this is just a "guideline" and that it would violate Wikipedia:Only make links that are relevant to the context in that linking up such dates will not be relevant to the article's context or aid or facilitate in any way a reader's understanding of the article. So I ask the following:
I thank you in advance for your answers and assistance. — ExplorerCDT 18:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)
So for most units (which go after the number) we have a clear guideline to use an nbsp space between number and unit. For currency symbols in front of the number, there is no such guideline - and the examples in this manual are not consistent:
...so GB pound and Renminbi both have spaces - but the others don't? Where there is a space, it's not a nbsp space? I can see why we might want a space between GBP/ RMB and the number - it looks weird with the GB£ form - and why is it any different than US$ in this regard? When there is a space - should it be an nbsp? I think so - we don't want it split from the number by a newline. Help! SteveBaker 00:40, 3 January 2007 (UTC)
*Within a context or a list, style should be consistent. Example: There were 5 cats, 12 dogs, and 32 birds. or There were five cats, twelve dogs, and thirty-two birds.
Is there a clearer definition of "context"? Something like "He is nth place in RBI (three-digit number) and nth place in stolen bases (two-digit number)" would be confusing because it looks like there are two contexts intertwined (and often viewed as one context). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Vic226 ( talk • contribs) 18:02, 6 January 2007 (UTC).
Not only does the the Manual of Style recommend SI (metric) units of measure for science-related articles, but also: a Wikipedia goal is to present a world-wide view, see:
Because only Burma, Liberia, and the United States have not adopted the metric system as their official non-voluntary system [1], it seems appropriate to use the Metric System first (with the US Customary Sytem in parentheses) in most Wikipedia articles.
The US did "officially" adopt the metric system in 1975 (see Metrication in the United States). And, in 1988, the United States Omnibus Trade and Competitiveness Act designated the metric system as "the preferred system". But it calls for a voluntary conversion: the 1988 legislation states that the Federal Government has a responsibility to assist industry in voluntarily conversion.
Please edit the project page—reversion isn't particularly helpful.-- Lesikar 20:34, 6 January 2007 (UTC)
Actually the U.S. doesn't have an official measurement system just like it doesn't have an offical language. The English system is used because of inertia. It actually adopted the metric system in 1866 when it ratified the Treaty of the Meter.
For consistency and ease that if it is under a category that defines in metric units then all things related to the category should be in metric also and vice versa for English units. For example the Category:Skyscapers by height are listed in meters but include U.S. buildings. Must we make it harder to compare U.S. buildings with other buildings around the world by having a separate subcategory of heights in feet? The infoboxes have primary English/secondary metric. This defeats the purpose of dividing buildings of certain heights in meters.
Another category to exclusively use metric is when talking about antenna heights, broadcasting engineers use metric units like the watt. The height of the transmitting antenna must be roughly half of the wavelength to transmit properly, which is measured in meters. In early broacasting, frequency was measured in meters not kilohertz or megahertz, a variation of hertz in multiples of 1000 or 1,000,000 respectively. This is also why antenna heights should be in meters also. — SirChan 09:27, 2 February 2007 (UTC)
Which one should we standardize on? -- Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 10:45, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
So, neither " May, 1968" nor " May of 1968" as page name for the content (but both can be redirects of course). And in all other articles you use what is most appropriate. Which may be "May of 1968" or "May, 1968" as you choose, for example for something that happened in the US, and has no relation to what is described in the May 1968 article. -- Francis Schonken 11:08, 8 January 2007 (UTC)If a time indicator is used in the title of an article on an event that doesn't recur at regular intervals (or didn't recur at all) there's no "standard format" for the representation of the time indicator, so there is for instance: Crisis of the Third Century; German Crusade, 1096 (one of the developments of the First Crusade); May 1968, etc... The format of the date depends, in these cases, from established practice in history books and the like. In general, however, abbreviations for years or months are avoided (e.g.,
May '68→ May 1968); for centuries numerals are given in text, capitalised (e.g.,Crisis of the 3rd century→ Crisis of the Third Century)
Oops, and then I also just noticed this in Wikipedia:Manual of Style (dates and numbers)#Incorrect date formats:
...which seems to make this discussion moot (as far as the current content of the MoS is concerned - or was there an intention to change that?) -- Francis Schonken 12:22, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
I think it's a little inflexible to disallow 1pm and 7am. Why insist on dots when the language has undergone a clear shift to removing them in initialisms such as NATO, NASA, and BBC? Only U dot S dot survives, in the US alone, since other English-speakers have lost the dots in that one. Tony 11:10, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
The guideline is deliberately inflexible to encourage consistency. For all it's worth, am, a.m., AM, or A.M. could well have been chosen at random; however, I am still of the position that a.m. would be the best option. From what I have seen, none of those four options is any more common than another, and all are equally accurate and understandable. However, for one encyclopedia, one format should be chosen.
The difference between a.m. and an acronym is that acronyms are all in uppercase, thereby making it clear that it is an acronym, whereas the same does not hold for a.m.. I do not see this as comparable to acronyms: I see them as entirely independent situations. "a.m.", in my opinion, looks neater and more obvious that it is an abbreviation of something. ExplorerCDT provided a good (better) explanation (from his fourth sentence onwards).
The Chicago Manual of Style recommends either "a.m." or "AM" (in small caps). For obvious reasons, the latter wouldn't really work here.
In terms of application, I would encourage everyone to try not to think of the manual in terms of "working" or "ignored", but as guideline of good and consistent style that articles will eventually find their way to. The time guideline is the relatively new one, and times are not often encountered in articles (at least, not in my experience), so I would fully understand that most times don't follow it yet. Editors are not obliged to follow the manual of style, and for something uncommon like this I wouldn't expect most editors to even know about it. Neonumbers 23:39, 8 January 2007 (UTC)
What about date ranges? I ran into 14-15 May 1994. Either May 14- 15, 1994 nor 14- 15 May 1994 won't work for user with different preferance. Is this addressed? Thank you.-- Pethr 03:09, 12 January 2007 (UTC)