This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
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I see USD and USD being used in some articles in lieu of US$. The style manual does not mention USD. Should something be said about whether USD is OK or not? Outside of Wikipedia, I have seen USD used in various contexts, but all meaning "United States Dollar". Thanks Hmains 23:10, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
According to [1] whether or not to include apostrophes in decades (i.e. 50s vs. 50's) is a matter of choice - the Wikipedia Manual of Style currently indicates that apostrophes should not be used. I agree with the Wikipedia style suggestion, but has there been community consensus on this point? If so, there are about 86,000 articles that use 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, or 90's in them, and I doubt that many of those are possessive. Ziggurat 21:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
From my talk page:
*******************************************
Bobblewik, you've been asked nicely, you've been given a short block as a warning, and you continue making these changes at rapid speed, despite it being obvious (as evidenced by your own talk page) that many people view these changes as being disruptive and not being supported by consensus or policy. Please discontinue until this is sorted out, or I will have to block until such an assurance can be given.
Ambi 04:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
*******************************************
It seems that there are objections to date linking guidelines. The mismatch between policy and implementation in articles is excessive. The policy should change, or articles should change, or both. It is bizarre to have policies that cannot be implemented.
Ambi asked for a second suspension of implementation of policy 'until this is sorted out'. See my talk page.
Suspensions of policy should be
There are quite a few editors interested in this topic. I would like to see a resolution. What do others think (PS if you see no response from me, Ambi, Talrias or other objectors may have blocked me again)? bobblewik 13:30, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not the only one who has complained about this. This section in the MOS exists because the only people who know this exists are the people who are pedantic about killing date links. One look at Bobblewik's talk page reveals just how controversial his edits are - there's a litany of complaints and requests to stop, at least for the present.
120 an hour is, frankly, bot speed. It's impossible to undo without a bot, and it's incredibly bad faith to do this when you know that it's controversial. I have no objection to people changing these on the articles they edit (as exists with other issues like BCE-CE), but it's really rude to make these en masse across the entire project. Bobblewik's campaign is a personal one; if he can't stop until he is at the very least sure he has even majority (let alone consensus) support for his actions, then he should be blocked from making those edits. Ambi 05:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Bobblewik has indeed been blocked again, I have already given my opinion on this(above): [2] Thincat 12:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm coming in late on this. I am assuming that all Bobblewik has been doing is unlinking isolated years, e.g. "George Orwell's novel takes place in [[1984]]," and that that is what people are objecting to. If I'm offbase on this, then ignore these comments; otherwise, I completely fail to understand how anyone can object to what Bobblewik is doing.
-- Dpbsmith (talk) 13:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Suggestion: As I think about this, it seems to me that it's the recent years which are the most useless as links, and the earlier a year is, the more likely it is to be useful. So is there any possibility that people could agree to Bobblewik unlinking only the most recent years, since 1980, say? I think a very, very high proportion of them would have been added without any thought of benefit to the reader. Ambi et al., does that sound like a compromise, or do you not want to concede that any year links are bad? I'm just trying to find a way forward here. Stephen Turner ( Talk) 09:58, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Hello, everyone. I am in support of the anno Domini terminology personally, but I have a different proposal that may just satisfy everyone who reads Wikipedia. This proposal would remove the edit wars, as well as all problems of "confusion" and the extreme likeness of BCE to CE. Also, it would stop confusing pages like this one from referring to years like 164 BC/BCE. I got this idea from the customs of the History Channel. Here is the proposal:
Years from
1 forward will be abbreviated with CE (Common Era; can be interpreted as Christian Era).
Years prior to and including 1 BC will be abbreviated with BC (Before Christ; can be interpreted as Before Current).
Why are you discussing this here, when there's a project page for centralized discussion? Please, bring your ideas and your suggestions and your energy to Wikipedia:Eras. - GTBacchus( talk) 02:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Since the main articles have names such as January 1 and not 1 January, is that also the standard usage on Wikipedia? Shawnc 04:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)Date lks piped to make sense of them for users with the pref set.-- Jerzy• t 23:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Spelling out of centuries vs Arabic numerals.
Having trawled through the entire talk archive I have come up with the following
The Guardian style guides recommend spelling out first - ninth following their newspaperish take on numbers.
I suggest rewording the MoS to at least allow spelling out centuries on an equal footing with Arabic numberals. Rich Farmbrough. 22:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I apologize if this has been previously covered, but I'm not going to read through 36 pages of archives and I don't know how to search just the archives. Currently, in section 1.3 Dates of birth and death, there is a statement saying, "Locations should be included in the biography portion of the body article." I see many, many articles where this is not the case, and I've cleaned up many, many articles to move the location from the date area to the body of the article per the current style guide. I'd like to propose that the style guide be changed to allow locations in the date area. Many times, it does not seem appropriate to have a sentence in the body just to say where someone was born if it isn't relative to the rest of the article. Thoughts? If this has already been discussed and decided, please direct me to the appropriate discussion area and I'll happily be on my way. Lbbzman 18:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Some thoughts: I think the bottom line throughout the encyclopedia should be consistency. Create a base and stay with it. I realize that is what a Manual of Style is supposed to create and maintain. What I see are a group of people, each with their own personal style to promote. There can and will be “chaos” in the substance of the material in the encyclopedia since it covers such a wide area of information. However, if the structure, the basic framework that is supposed to contain that information is chaotic, and changes from article to article, you have an unreadable disaster. One of the primary functions of Wikipedia (as in any encyclopedia) should be to organize this chaos.
Our brain depends a great deal on a certain amount of consistency and familiarity in our day-to-day surroundings. If the very basic elements of your life changed day to day you would soon be unable to function. But if the basic elements remain constant, you are able to deal with those elements that are different day to day. Each article in Wikipedia is a day; that basic structure should remain constant as the information changes.
Without this consistency it's like a group of architects arguing about what the basic structure of a building should be; each having their own creative concept; without considering that real people are going to have to navigate it every day. If that basic structure changed from day to day, the effect on the person trying to navigate it would be total disorientation.
Specific suggestions: Constants article to article - Presentation of Birth & Death Dates should be consistent, easily read and located in the same place (that's all the reader may be looking for); Location of Birth should be presented as close to the beginning of the body of the Article as possible (that's all the reader may be looking for); Links to other Articles should be relevant to the specific article it's keyed in. Imagine you're sitting in a library with unlimited resources; you come upon a term, name or other piece of information in the Article you're reading; would you get up, cross the room and pull out another text to look-up that reference? (I know that Pittsburgh is a city; I know it's located in Pennsylvania; is knowing more about the city of Pittsburgh going to enhance my knowledge of the specific subject I am researching at the time, or is it going to be an unnecessary sidetrack? The trunk of the tree is the primary subject you are researching; how many branches can there be before you no longer see that trunk?
I’m fairly new to Wikipedia, and am fascinated by its concept and execution. I plan to contribute as much as I can. More later… Michael David 13:09, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Michael David, welcome, and I fully agree with you (as you can see on my user page rants). One of our main problems is that, in a consensus-driven community, we often end up with compromise such as, "do either" — acceptable in some situations, but with trivial matters, absolutely not. However, the manual is doing a fairly decent job of standardising, at the very least, what it can. Your suggestions are welcome. (I think, but am not sure, that dates but not locations of birth and death have already been standardised.) I'm meant to be on a wiki-break, and I might not be back for a while. Neonumbers 05:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 30 | ← | Archive 35 | Archive 36 | Archive 37 | Archive 38 | Archive 39 | Archive 40 |
I see USD and USD being used in some articles in lieu of US$. The style manual does not mention USD. Should something be said about whether USD is OK or not? Outside of Wikipedia, I have seen USD used in various contexts, but all meaning "United States Dollar". Thanks Hmains 23:10, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
According to [1] whether or not to include apostrophes in decades (i.e. 50s vs. 50's) is a matter of choice - the Wikipedia Manual of Style currently indicates that apostrophes should not be used. I agree with the Wikipedia style suggestion, but has there been community consensus on this point? If so, there are about 86,000 articles that use 50's, 60's, 70's, 80's, or 90's in them, and I doubt that many of those are possessive. Ziggurat 21:49, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
From my talk page:
*******************************************
Bobblewik, you've been asked nicely, you've been given a short block as a warning, and you continue making these changes at rapid speed, despite it being obvious (as evidenced by your own talk page) that many people view these changes as being disruptive and not being supported by consensus or policy. Please discontinue until this is sorted out, or I will have to block until such an assurance can be given.
Ambi 04:22, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
*******************************************
It seems that there are objections to date linking guidelines. The mismatch between policy and implementation in articles is excessive. The policy should change, or articles should change, or both. It is bizarre to have policies that cannot be implemented.
Ambi asked for a second suspension of implementation of policy 'until this is sorted out'. See my talk page.
Suspensions of policy should be
There are quite a few editors interested in this topic. I would like to see a resolution. What do others think (PS if you see no response from me, Ambi, Talrias or other objectors may have blocked me again)? bobblewik 13:30, 2 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm not the only one who has complained about this. This section in the MOS exists because the only people who know this exists are the people who are pedantic about killing date links. One look at Bobblewik's talk page reveals just how controversial his edits are - there's a litany of complaints and requests to stop, at least for the present.
120 an hour is, frankly, bot speed. It's impossible to undo without a bot, and it's incredibly bad faith to do this when you know that it's controversial. I have no objection to people changing these on the articles they edit (as exists with other issues like BCE-CE), but it's really rude to make these en masse across the entire project. Bobblewik's campaign is a personal one; if he can't stop until he is at the very least sure he has even majority (let alone consensus) support for his actions, then he should be blocked from making those edits. Ambi 05:34, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Bobblewik has indeed been blocked again, I have already given my opinion on this(above): [2] Thincat 12:27, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
I'm coming in late on this. I am assuming that all Bobblewik has been doing is unlinking isolated years, e.g. "George Orwell's novel takes place in [[1984]]," and that that is what people are objecting to. If I'm offbase on this, then ignore these comments; otherwise, I completely fail to understand how anyone can object to what Bobblewik is doing.
-- Dpbsmith (talk) 13:56, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
Suggestion: As I think about this, it seems to me that it's the recent years which are the most useless as links, and the earlier a year is, the more likely it is to be useful. So is there any possibility that people could agree to Bobblewik unlinking only the most recent years, since 1980, say? I think a very, very high proportion of them would have been added without any thought of benefit to the reader. Ambi et al., does that sound like a compromise, or do you not want to concede that any year links are bad? I'm just trying to find a way forward here. Stephen Turner ( Talk) 09:58, 4 February 2006 (UTC)
Hello, everyone. I am in support of the anno Domini terminology personally, but I have a different proposal that may just satisfy everyone who reads Wikipedia. This proposal would remove the edit wars, as well as all problems of "confusion" and the extreme likeness of BCE to CE. Also, it would stop confusing pages like this one from referring to years like 164 BC/BCE. I got this idea from the customs of the History Channel. Here is the proposal:
Years from
1 forward will be abbreviated with CE (Common Era; can be interpreted as Christian Era).
Years prior to and including 1 BC will be abbreviated with BC (Before Christ; can be interpreted as Before Current).
Why are you discussing this here, when there's a project page for centralized discussion? Please, bring your ideas and your suggestions and your energy to Wikipedia:Eras. - GTBacchus( talk) 02:23, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
Since the main articles have names such as January 1 and not 1 January, is that also the standard usage on Wikipedia? Shawnc 04:17, 7 February 2006 (UTC)Date lks piped to make sense of them for users with the pref set.-- Jerzy• t 23:06, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
Spelling out of centuries vs Arabic numerals.
Having trawled through the entire talk archive I have come up with the following
The Guardian style guides recommend spelling out first - ninth following their newspaperish take on numbers.
I suggest rewording the MoS to at least allow spelling out centuries on an equal footing with Arabic numberals. Rich Farmbrough. 22:46, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
I apologize if this has been previously covered, but I'm not going to read through 36 pages of archives and I don't know how to search just the archives. Currently, in section 1.3 Dates of birth and death, there is a statement saying, "Locations should be included in the biography portion of the body article." I see many, many articles where this is not the case, and I've cleaned up many, many articles to move the location from the date area to the body of the article per the current style guide. I'd like to propose that the style guide be changed to allow locations in the date area. Many times, it does not seem appropriate to have a sentence in the body just to say where someone was born if it isn't relative to the rest of the article. Thoughts? If this has already been discussed and decided, please direct me to the appropriate discussion area and I'll happily be on my way. Lbbzman 18:37, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
Some thoughts: I think the bottom line throughout the encyclopedia should be consistency. Create a base and stay with it. I realize that is what a Manual of Style is supposed to create and maintain. What I see are a group of people, each with their own personal style to promote. There can and will be “chaos” in the substance of the material in the encyclopedia since it covers such a wide area of information. However, if the structure, the basic framework that is supposed to contain that information is chaotic, and changes from article to article, you have an unreadable disaster. One of the primary functions of Wikipedia (as in any encyclopedia) should be to organize this chaos.
Our brain depends a great deal on a certain amount of consistency and familiarity in our day-to-day surroundings. If the very basic elements of your life changed day to day you would soon be unable to function. But if the basic elements remain constant, you are able to deal with those elements that are different day to day. Each article in Wikipedia is a day; that basic structure should remain constant as the information changes.
Without this consistency it's like a group of architects arguing about what the basic structure of a building should be; each having their own creative concept; without considering that real people are going to have to navigate it every day. If that basic structure changed from day to day, the effect on the person trying to navigate it would be total disorientation.
Specific suggestions: Constants article to article - Presentation of Birth & Death Dates should be consistent, easily read and located in the same place (that's all the reader may be looking for); Location of Birth should be presented as close to the beginning of the body of the Article as possible (that's all the reader may be looking for); Links to other Articles should be relevant to the specific article it's keyed in. Imagine you're sitting in a library with unlimited resources; you come upon a term, name or other piece of information in the Article you're reading; would you get up, cross the room and pull out another text to look-up that reference? (I know that Pittsburgh is a city; I know it's located in Pennsylvania; is knowing more about the city of Pittsburgh going to enhance my knowledge of the specific subject I am researching at the time, or is it going to be an unnecessary sidetrack? The trunk of the tree is the primary subject you are researching; how many branches can there be before you no longer see that trunk?
I’m fairly new to Wikipedia, and am fascinated by its concept and execution. I plan to contribute as much as I can. More later… Michael David 13:09, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Michael David, welcome, and I fully agree with you (as you can see on my user page rants). One of our main problems is that, in a consensus-driven community, we often end up with compromise such as, "do either" — acceptable in some situations, but with trivial matters, absolutely not. However, the manual is doing a fairly decent job of standardising, at the very least, what it can. Your suggestions are welcome. (I think, but am not sure, that dates but not locations of birth and death have already been standardised.) I'm meant to be on a wiki-break, and I might not be back for a while. Neonumbers 05:36, 14 February 2006 (UTC)