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Does this guideline clash with Naming conventions (use English)? I am in a debate regarding anime names - one side wants the JP name and uses this to back them up, I say to use an English name if at all possible based on Naming conventions. Does this guideline state that even if there's an English name, a Japanese-related article should use the JP name? - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:09, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
As you may know, the name for Iōjima recently officially changed to Iōtō. Perhaps I should write from いおうじま to いおうとう. The official press release is here: [1]. There are several possible romanizations:
There are several issues to contend with here:
There are at least two conflicting English language resources. Japan Times lists "Iwoto" while Yahoo lists "Iwo To". It should be noted that neither publications will respect vowel length.
Comments? Bendono 23:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I do a lot of work within the WP:WPMA, and I'm frequently dealing with historical places. So, I'd like to request a rule for dealing with names of provinces. This recently came up in the Kano Jigoro article, where all sources say he was born in the town of Mikage (sometimes, Mikage-chō), allegedly near Kobe. I had trouble even confirming the existence of a town named Mikage, so I asked about this on the talk page for Hyōgo Prefecture, and an editor there informed me that Mikage used to be a town in Settsu Province, but now is just "a named local area inside Kobe". From what I've found, it appears more specifically to be within modern Kita-ku, Kobe. At any rate, how should I deal with this in the article? Some possibilites I've thought of are:
Thanks, Bradford44 13:28, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
[Copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan#The endless "In Popular Culture" sections]
A user ( Auximines) has embarked on a single-handed crusade to eliminate the countless "In Popular Culture" sections of Japan-related articles. He has my full-hearted support, but his actions also got me to thinking, especially since one of his deletions has already been reverted. In view of the enormous ammount of these, in most cases completely useless sections, shouldn't there be a rule or something? Is this the right place to discuss a possible setting of rules regarding these sections? If not, where should I turn to?
My proposed rule would be something to this extent: "For Japan-related articles, an "In Popular Culture" section should be limited to noteworthy instances of the article subject in anime, manga, dorama and other Japanese media. This includes main heroes or villains, important story line objects and similar. This excludes lesser heroes or vilains, less important story-line objects, references in ending songs, brief appearances and similar. Furher, the mention should be brief and to the point - story arcs belong in the articles on the respective anime, manga, dorama or other."
I realize this rule is not nearly clear-cut enough to be fully useful in all instances, but it could work to reduce clutter such as this:
And on and on. What say ye? TomorrowTime 04:24, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
[End of copied material]
I seem to have struck a painful spot with this one... As users above have pointed out (and I agree), this is a huge gray area. Some points on the lists are legit, some are just pure, meaningless clutter, and more often than not, the line between the two is hard to draw. And since (as users above also pointed out) a rule is not likely to come out of this, could we at least agree on a guideline? Just something to have at hand as backup in debates such as the one on the haniwa talk page? TomorrowTime 06:02, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Some kids at Talk:Yu-Gi-Oh!#yu-gi-oh_the_abridged_series want a fan work to be mentioned on the article page. I stated that mentioning it would not be notable. WhisperToMe 20:48, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
This recent edit to Kuwabara caught my attention. It struck me as a mixture of welcome and unwelcome. It was certainly surprising, and it took me to this talk page, in which a relevant discussion was going on.
In the edit, Japanese personal names are switched back to the Japanese order (which delights me, though I acknowledge that I'm in a minority here) but a borderline (hybrid) Japanese personal name is switched too. The editor seems to be conscientiously following this MoS, and particularly its section on piping.
Others here might be interested to learn of this enterprise. (I'm not a participant, backer or opponent; at this point I'm merely a bemused onlooker.) -- Hoary 04:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that we add a sentence or two explicitly describing the deprecated spellings that are not to be used. This is an integral part of both Revised Hepburn (which we've already established as a standard) and of the modern Japanese lanugage itself, but I think it might be good to spell it out, just so we have something to point to when it's done wrong.
Among the inappropriate spellings are the "kwa" and "gwa" in Kwannon and Hongwanji and the "ye" in Yedo and Iyemon (Iemon, a character in Yotsuya Kaidan).
There are exceptions, of course, such as those books and movies most well known as Kwaidan rather than Kaidan, and the beer Yebisu which continues to be spelled that way on the labels and other official contexts. But these are few and far between.
This should hopefully *crosses fingers* not be controversial. Thanks. LordAmeth 18:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to add something to the MOS-JA which indicates which of these should be used. I personally don't care one way or the other because, IMHO, they both mean the same thing and one is just trying to be more politically correct. So, let's discuss this. Which should we use in Japan-related articles? ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there's any need to give specific Japan-related guidance on something that is fully covered by the MOS. I also understand it has been discussed at some length there, causing lots of bitterness, before ending with the conclusion that editors are free to choose which style they want on any one page. Fg2 is right, you should not override the MOS. Foula 17:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Which term, "kanji" or "Chinese characters", is preferred for Japan-related articles? Should there be a mention of preference in MOS/Japan? My feeling is "kanji" is preferable, as it's more accurate and less cumbersome, and it should be wiki-linked so a reader unfamiliar with the term can look it up. It's essentially a technical term which is appropriate to use in the context of articles talking about a particular field (ie Japan). Also, it can be more technically correct, as "Chinese characters" can refer to simplified or traditional, or to characters whose meaning has changed between Chinese and Japanese (compare "好" in Japanese meaning "like", in Chinese meaning "good").
The opposite argument is that "Chinese character" is more accessible and easily understood by the average reader, who shouldn't have to check meanings of terms used to understand an article. So, is "kanji" accepted as a word which has entered the English language yet?
I'm asking here because I'm having an attack of guilt after changing an editor's choice of "Chinese characters" to "kanji" in an article, but realised that the same issue may come up in any Japan related article and that it might be desirable to have a common usage across the board. -- DrHacky 15:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I would like to start several stubs about Japanese volcanoes, to kill redlinks in List of volcanoes in Japan. All Indonesian and almost all Russian volcanoes have already their articles.
Point is, I don't know if there is any naming convention for Japanese mountains. How should I, e.g., name this: [3] volcano? Suwanosejima, Suwanose-jima or maybe just Suwanose? Same with -yama suffix [4], and -dake suffix [5]. I guess I should name X-yama article as Mount X. Please, help. Thanks. - Darwinek 12:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
SJones seems to disagree with my use of apostrophes in the following Death Note character:
I had the apostrophe placed to distinguish Ei-i-chi from E-ii-chi (As in LOC Hepburn, Ei is "double e" and ii is "double i")
What should the MOS say about apostrophes to distinguish ii and ei? WhisperToMe 23:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
"In words of Japanese or Chinese origin, the long vowel i is written ii."
Since I believe this is what we are using on here, this is why the distinction is made... WhisperToMe 01:07, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
To be honest, I do not ever disagree with WhisperToMe's use of apostrophes in the following Death Note character:
Greg Jones II 00:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Just my two cents--the distinction seems unnecessary. CES 01:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, to prove this practice is common, Google "Kei'ichi" http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Kei%27ichi%22&hl=en&safe=active&start=10&sa=N - It brings hits showing "kei'ichi" OR "Kei-ichi" WhisperToMe 07:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Also, here's one for "Ei'ichiro" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=active&q=%22Ei%27ichiro%22&btnG=Search WhisperToMe 07:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Other examples of "modified Hepburn":
WhisperToMe 07:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
What I meant was, since kanji breaks between o and u are recognized in the romanization system, why should the kanji breaks between an "i" and an "i" be un-recognized? Is it because there are few characters that have "ii" ? IMO, the way to solve this is to find out if the Hepburn system used by the Library of Congress details how it treats kanji breaks for i's. I'll contact the LOC and ask about the issue. WhisperToMe 01:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
EDIT: I used this http://www.loc.gov/rr/askalib/ to ask the question to the LOC Librarian.
If the LOC Hepburn does NOT specify what to do in this case, the Wikipedians here should decide whether to include the apostrophe.
If it DOES specify, I would add content to the "Hepburn romanization" article. WhisperToMe 01:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
It seems likely, then, that the LOC would romanize without "'"s - I will let you know what the person at the LOC help desk tells me. I also asked for a source which explains the romanization. If the LOC does not address this issue at all, then it seems that we should drop the apostrophes with the i's and e's. WhisperToMe 05:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, it all comes down to this: I'm opposed to using unnecessary apostrophes and hyphens (since I brought that up) when romanizing Japanese here on Wikipedia. I can see no valid reason to adopt a rarely-used (really, it is rare) romanization option like this. I'd also support adding a line to the MOS-JA to that effect (don't use unnecessary and excessive apostrophes and hyphens). ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 08:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I started writing redirects regarding this (i.e. Ki'i Peninsula and Ki-i Peninsula now redirect to Kii Peninsula) - I still have not received an answer from the LOC librarian regarding this. Once we get the answer (the librarian will probably say to write the name "Eiichi") - The document explaining this will be used as a source to explain Wikipedia's convention WhisperToMe 21:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
While we are at it, I also noticed that some people use apostrophe's to differentiate between n's in adjacent kanji (i.e. Sen'nin) and sokuon-n (I do not know any examples of sokuon-n) - Should I ask the librarian about this as well? WhisperToMe 21:04, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
For instance, Nara Prefectural Government is hosting this document [6] - Yes, it can be argued that Nara's choice to use the marks is screwy, but nethertheless it is a sometimes-used variant, and so a redirect should be made. Also, Camrbidge University has some document mentioning "Ki'i" hosted, but I only see the abstract of it, as the university wants payment for access to the full document. I am willing to make as many redirects as I can, by the way, so I do not see this as a waste of time for myself. WhisperToMe 00:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Doceirias, I've lost the point of this discussion. If you are simply making redirects, then I see no problem per se ... we all need hobbies ... but to me it seems about as pointless as redirecting all pages to, say, their JSL or Kunreishiki equivalent. At least in that case they are established romanization schemes unlike this e'i business. If you are not proposing a MoS policy change, can we consider this discussion closed? CES 11:35, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I want a line in the MOS that at least addresses this (and states to not insert dashes or apostrophes to distinguish i)(i and (ii). Is this fine, CES? (And, if you wish, add a similar line about n)(n and (sokuon)n, stating not to insert apostrophes and dashes in that case) WhisperToMe 13:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
EDIT: SJones added the line for it :) - Thank you! - http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28Japan-related_articles%29&curid=345326&diff=152245813&oldid=149718818 WhisperToMe 14:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
This is from the librarian: "According to the ALA-LC Romanization Tables: Transliteration Schemes for Non-Roman Scripts, approved by the Library of Congress and the American Library Association, it should be Eiichi." - The case is closed, folks! :) - The consensus here is clear and the message is clear: Do not distinguish between i)(i and (ii)
And this is our Hepburn source. This will be used for the Hepburn romanization article: http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/roman.html
"Library of Congress, and American Library Association. 1997. ALA-LC Romanization Tables: Transliteration Schemes for Non-Roman Scripts. Washington: Cataloging Distribution Service, Library of Congress."
WhisperToMe 15:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Anime- and manga-related articles) has been created to help organize all anime- and manga-related style issues in one spot and to keep the WP:ANIME page from becoming more crowded. Please come participate in discussions if you wish. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
So, the discussion doesn't follow in the "right way direction "(closer meaning), so it is closed. Heh. Well, was very informative, ayway...
Darkoneko
02:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Readers, editors and miscellaneous other enthusiasts of this MoS page may have noticed some strange fluctuations over the last day or so, in the template that tells people that it's part of MoS and what this means. There's been this version (and minor variants thereof) and this version (and ditto) -- and [yawn] something of an edit war between them.
So which do you like, and why? I have my own distinct preference. Not unusually, I seem to be in the minority. Join the "debate" and enjoy clobbering me into submission, uh I mean reaching a consensus on the optimum solution in an adult fashion. -- Hoary 01:06, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Some people apparantly claim that the section "Names of companies, products, and organizations" justifies keeping characters like ∞, ♥ and the like even though MOS:TM expressly forbids it. I've been around long enough to know why this section was inserted (I've followed the discussion back then) and it had to do with issues of spelling and romanization (things like "ō" versus "ou", "o" and "oh"). It was at the time definately not intended for things like this. In my opinion odd characters like I mentioned earlier are a style / logofication issue and should be subject to the same rules as ALL CAPS, which that section also never intended to cover. I would also like to note that I'm in good company: see Trademark, Schmademark. Shinobu 14:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we should somehow edit the wording of the styleguide somewhere to emphasise that MOS:TM's funny symbol guideline applies to Japan-related articles as well? On the one side, I'm against it, because after all it is a Wikipedia-wide guideline, not specific to Japan-related articles at all, but on the other hand this issue does seem to crop up more with Japan-related articles. Another question is whether MOS:TM is the ideal location for the "funny symbol style guide". Next thing you know, people start arguing that such-and-so is not a trademark and thus the little bunny in the title is perfectly okay. Shinobu 19:45, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
You make a good point. Because I was thinking about the funny symbols, I completely forgot to see that this of course applies to all caps, lowercase initials, etc. too.
Regarding the MOS:TM link, perhaps it's simply in the wrong place. Perhaps if we moved it to the intro, or renamed the section, or added another section? Perhaps a new section name could be "Formatting issues in Roman script" or something, and explicitly state that all MOS:TM's guidelines do apply to all trademarks. Or, if the MOS:TM guide gets more general, universally.
You and I may take these things more or less for granted, but apparently some don't and need extra guidance. I also think that in the end, regardless of which styleguide trumps which one, all styleguides should also try to be consistent.
Also, if we are serious about this MOS:TM thing, it's perhaps better to take it there. This talk page discusses Japan-related article guidelines specifically, after all. Shinobu 14:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Jefu removed the following image from Emperor Juntoku. His explanation for this decision was tersely worded.
I can guess about Jefu's plausible arguments, but I leave it to him to make them here so that others may offer suggestions or comment.
This is a "portrait" representation of a 12th century emperor. I believe that this image was appropriately posted by 1549bcp in 2005. Moreover, I would expect other Hyakunin Isshu "portraits" to metastasize in this and other Wikipedias.
For information beyond what you can find in the internally-linked article (and in the two external links which are posted at the bottom of that page), here are three useful web sites:
In my view, this specific image adds depth to Wikipedia by exemplifying an interesting strategy for bringing Japanese history and literature to life across the centuries between then and now.
If a better likeness of Juntoku becomes available, this one can be replaced -- of course; but in the absence of anything else, it's hard for me to see how anyone can assess this visual aid as meaningless. -- Ooperhoofd 21:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
It is meaningless because it isn't a likeness of anyone. Unless a portrait is contemporary, and therefore a likeness of the person in question, it's value in a biographical article is highly suspect to say the least. The only time I can imagine any such image having any value would be if it has become a well-known work of art in and of itself and has therefore become strongly associated with its subject (even if such association is false). To include a picture drawn who-knows-when by who-knows-who taken from what is essentially a glorified deck of playing cards and suggest that it is a likeness of an actual person is tantamount to fraud. I'm also highly skeptical of the current 15th century picture, but since it is probably a fairly well-known work of art in and of itself and is clearly dated to a time period several hundred years after the subject lived, I'm inclined to leave it.- Jefu 12:46, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
In recent months, I've been working on the pre-Meiji List of Emperors of Japan, mainly adding citations and references. From my perspective, the usefulness of two sub-headings is enhanced by the term - tenno as a suffix. Bendono questioned me about this, but agreed to give me time to formulate an argument to explain my point-of-view.
My preference:
Other editors would prefer:
A general context for this trivial "controversy" is presented concisely in a 2005 edit to Emperor of Japan which was written by Jefu.
For today, my brief argument devolves into just two unrelated chains of reasoning:
I am grateful that Bendono gave me time to think this through. If necessary, of course, I will re-edit each sub-heading if this specific use of the -tennō suffix is not perceived as a helpful step towards making Wikipedia better.
What do you make of this? Does this belong here? -- Ooperhoofd 22:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Fg2 makes a compelling point when he explains that consistent use makes the word tenno as much a "false friend" as the word "emperor". He has actively engaged the thrust of my argument, reconstructed it, and focused on a crucial flaw in a line of reasoning which goes back to my original intent. He also identified ancillary issues which arise from my implied views about how sub-headings can be or should be construed. A good, clear-headed analysis. -- Ooperhoofd 15:51, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Fg2's comments caused me to re-visit all the sub-headings in the List of Emperors of Japan from the 6th century Emperor Kimmei through the 19th century Emperor Komei. All are now made consistent with Fg2's suggestions. My conforming actions create a context in which to complain and disagree. While I am persuaded that the sub-headings are the wrong fulcrum points, and I continue to appreciate ways in which the tennō suffix can't be more than a thin lever at best, I'm not content. Mine is not the kind of "unquestioning conformity" which Hoary derogates with good reason.
Jefu perhaps tries to devalue my efforts here by classifying this as "just a repeat of many past discussions on this topic," but he brings up an important point for me. In Yogi Berra's American idiomatic language: "It ain't over till it's over." I recognize that Fg2 is only presenting the current best thinking of a consensus of well-meaning, well-informed en:Wiki-editors who concern themselves with things having to do with Japan -- not a bad thing, really ... but I have to wonder if that's just not good enough in the long term, not flexible enough, not open-ended enough.
Without dwelling on either, I want to underscore two things this was never about:
Fg2 filleted my imperfect reasoning with élan -- and the nearly 100 edits conforming to his suggestions do demonstrate my assent. I can't emphasize this enough. And yet, I'm still not feeling finished with this. Ah, yes -- there's the rub. Do you see my point? Of course, if it turns out that my persistence were mere personal intransigence, this will matter not at all. For now, we can only wait to see what develops as the future unfolds. I predict that we will be returning to some sort of variation on similar themes in the near future.
Switching gears a bit: Wouldn't it be seemly for me to say "thanks" here? After all, I started this thread with questions, and I have garnered valuable and thoughtful feedback. -- Ooperhoofd 13:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
In the lengthy exchange above, it becomes clear that my views were more wrong than right. As I continue to mull it over, I do understand that I was heading down the wrong path; and yet, the niggling allure of the term "tenno" still persists in the back of my mind.
I am actively considering how best to act on Jefu's suggestion that I append an etymological paragraph in Wictionary. For now, my primary focus (and the greatest impetus towards continued restraint) devolves from one complex and crucial point made by Fg2:
With Fg2's potent caveat in mind, I guess I need to revisit my POV about the reigns of Empress Suiko through Emperor Reizei -- Suiko's reign being about the time when the term tennō was initially adopted, [1] and Reizei's reign being the time when the use of tennō was formally discontinued. [2] Also, I guess I need to re-examine my POV about the 19th-century reigns of Emperor Ninko and Emperor Komei when the use of tennō was revived. Whether these turn out to be profitable veins of investigation remains unclear, of course; but from my perspective, this MOS exercise was clearly worthwhile. -- Ooperhoofd 19:19, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
An editor has started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Too many (allegedly) regional subpages about consolidating all regional style guidelines into one. Fg2 10:54, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
I was reviewing the article Kamiizumi Nobutsuna, which raised the following questions in my mind, for which perhaps a style rule ought to exist.
Thank you, Bradford44 17:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I came to this discussion a bit late, but here are some thoughts on the above.
In many cases, the "no" that you see in historical Japanese names (I don't think it is used at all today) is very similar to the "of" equivalents ("von", "van", "di", "de" etc.) that you see in many European names, like Warner von Braun, Edward Van Halen, Al Di Meola, Charles de Gaulle, etc. And, although capitalization of these prepositional name components varies (even from individual to individual), I have never seen them written with hyphens. Therefore, regarding the question about hyphens, I would suggest that the same should be true when Romanizing a Japanese name.
However, it is also important to point out that there are two different "no" phenomena identified in the discussion above. The first is where "no" is used to link a surname (or a clan name, etc.) and a given name together. Examples of this include "Soga no Umako", "Fujiwara no Michinaga", "Minamoto no Yoritomo", etc. The second is where the "no" is used as part of a phrase that is actually a title. An example of this is the "Ise no Kami" example given at the outset of the discussion. As CES points out, these are not middle names in the Western sense. For those, I am personally more open to hyphenating the title to keep it "one word" while noting how it is broken up into its grammatical consituents because, unlike true "names", the actual meaning of the phrase is of crucial importance.
Another phenomenon at work here that makes historical Japanese names potentially confusing is the fact that people sometimes take several different names throughout their life, such as birth names, coming-of-age names or names that were given to them upon being granted some rank or position of authority. For example, Yoshitsune was actually named Ushiwakamaru at birth. He took the name Yoshitsune at his coming-of-age (genpuku) ceremony, and that is the name he is commonly known by today. And Hideyoshi is a good example of someone who went through quite a few renamings as he moved up from peasant farmer to the most powerful man in the country.
In addition, although the "-ro" words (like Taro, Jiro, Saburo, etc.) can and are used as actual names, in the case of Yoshitsune, although you do hear it in very formal sounding references to him, I think I would consider the term "Kuro" to be a descriptive term rather than an actual component of his name.
Finally, I think the article titles should just be the name that is most commonly associated with the person in Japan. Other components of the name should be set out in the article as appropriate (e.g. a fuller name in the opening paragraph, older names that were later replaced at appropriate points in the biographical narrative, etc.) At the end of the day, the best guide on how to title the articles and treat the various names, of course, is the Japanese language article for the same individual. If anyone has any questions about a specific person, drop me a note on my talk page. I would be happy to help out by confirming the Japanese version of the article, etc. I think at the end of the day, while we can probably put a few general rules in place, most will have to be determined on a case-by-case basis.- Jefu 06:49, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
In the Using Japanese in the article body section, it starts with In a narrative article. I seem to remember that the narrative language was put in, in order to preserve lists of terms/places/people which could benefit from having all the kanji appear in one page. In other words, if someone was looking for a specific sumo term, or train station on a particular line, the article would facilitate that. Recently, some lists like these have been edited to remove the kanji. What is the current feeling about lists (not narrative paragraphs) with the kanji? Neier 04:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I've modified the section. Neier 09:08, 22 October 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Does this guideline clash with Naming conventions (use English)? I am in a debate regarding anime names - one side wants the JP name and uses this to back them up, I say to use an English name if at all possible based on Naming conventions. Does this guideline state that even if there's an English name, a Japanese-related article should use the JP name? - A Link to the Past (talk) 00:09, 9 June 2007 (UTC)
As you may know, the name for Iōjima recently officially changed to Iōtō. Perhaps I should write from いおうじま to いおうとう. The official press release is here: [1]. There are several possible romanizations:
There are several issues to contend with here:
There are at least two conflicting English language resources. Japan Times lists "Iwoto" while Yahoo lists "Iwo To". It should be noted that neither publications will respect vowel length.
Comments? Bendono 23:56, 20 June 2007 (UTC)
Hi, I do a lot of work within the WP:WPMA, and I'm frequently dealing with historical places. So, I'd like to request a rule for dealing with names of provinces. This recently came up in the Kano Jigoro article, where all sources say he was born in the town of Mikage (sometimes, Mikage-chō), allegedly near Kobe. I had trouble even confirming the existence of a town named Mikage, so I asked about this on the talk page for Hyōgo Prefecture, and an editor there informed me that Mikage used to be a town in Settsu Province, but now is just "a named local area inside Kobe". From what I've found, it appears more specifically to be within modern Kita-ku, Kobe. At any rate, how should I deal with this in the article? Some possibilites I've thought of are:
Thanks, Bradford44 13:28, 22 June 2007 (UTC)
[Copied from Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Japan#The endless "In Popular Culture" sections]
A user ( Auximines) has embarked on a single-handed crusade to eliminate the countless "In Popular Culture" sections of Japan-related articles. He has my full-hearted support, but his actions also got me to thinking, especially since one of his deletions has already been reverted. In view of the enormous ammount of these, in most cases completely useless sections, shouldn't there be a rule or something? Is this the right place to discuss a possible setting of rules regarding these sections? If not, where should I turn to?
My proposed rule would be something to this extent: "For Japan-related articles, an "In Popular Culture" section should be limited to noteworthy instances of the article subject in anime, manga, dorama and other Japanese media. This includes main heroes or villains, important story line objects and similar. This excludes lesser heroes or vilains, less important story-line objects, references in ending songs, brief appearances and similar. Furher, the mention should be brief and to the point - story arcs belong in the articles on the respective anime, manga, dorama or other."
I realize this rule is not nearly clear-cut enough to be fully useful in all instances, but it could work to reduce clutter such as this:
And on and on. What say ye? TomorrowTime 04:24, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
[End of copied material]
I seem to have struck a painful spot with this one... As users above have pointed out (and I agree), this is a huge gray area. Some points on the lists are legit, some are just pure, meaningless clutter, and more often than not, the line between the two is hard to draw. And since (as users above also pointed out) a rule is not likely to come out of this, could we at least agree on a guideline? Just something to have at hand as backup in debates such as the one on the haniwa talk page? TomorrowTime 06:02, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Some kids at Talk:Yu-Gi-Oh!#yu-gi-oh_the_abridged_series want a fan work to be mentioned on the article page. I stated that mentioning it would not be notable. WhisperToMe 20:48, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
This recent edit to Kuwabara caught my attention. It struck me as a mixture of welcome and unwelcome. It was certainly surprising, and it took me to this talk page, in which a relevant discussion was going on.
In the edit, Japanese personal names are switched back to the Japanese order (which delights me, though I acknowledge that I'm in a minority here) but a borderline (hybrid) Japanese personal name is switched too. The editor seems to be conscientiously following this MoS, and particularly its section on piping.
Others here might be interested to learn of this enterprise. (I'm not a participant, backer or opponent; at this point I'm merely a bemused onlooker.) -- Hoary 04:07, 21 July 2007 (UTC)
I would like to suggest that we add a sentence or two explicitly describing the deprecated spellings that are not to be used. This is an integral part of both Revised Hepburn (which we've already established as a standard) and of the modern Japanese lanugage itself, but I think it might be good to spell it out, just so we have something to point to when it's done wrong.
Among the inappropriate spellings are the "kwa" and "gwa" in Kwannon and Hongwanji and the "ye" in Yedo and Iyemon (Iemon, a character in Yotsuya Kaidan).
There are exceptions, of course, such as those books and movies most well known as Kwaidan rather than Kaidan, and the beer Yebisu which continues to be spelled that way on the labels and other official contexts. But these are few and far between.
This should hopefully *crosses fingers* not be controversial. Thanks. LordAmeth 18:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)
I think we need to add something to the MOS-JA which indicates which of these should be used. I personally don't care one way or the other because, IMHO, they both mean the same thing and one is just trying to be more politically correct. So, let's discuss this. Which should we use in Japan-related articles? ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 21:15, 12 August 2007 (UTC)
I don't think there's any need to give specific Japan-related guidance on something that is fully covered by the MOS. I also understand it has been discussed at some length there, causing lots of bitterness, before ending with the conclusion that editors are free to choose which style they want on any one page. Fg2 is right, you should not override the MOS. Foula 17:49, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Which term, "kanji" or "Chinese characters", is preferred for Japan-related articles? Should there be a mention of preference in MOS/Japan? My feeling is "kanji" is preferable, as it's more accurate and less cumbersome, and it should be wiki-linked so a reader unfamiliar with the term can look it up. It's essentially a technical term which is appropriate to use in the context of articles talking about a particular field (ie Japan). Also, it can be more technically correct, as "Chinese characters" can refer to simplified or traditional, or to characters whose meaning has changed between Chinese and Japanese (compare "好" in Japanese meaning "like", in Chinese meaning "good").
The opposite argument is that "Chinese character" is more accessible and easily understood by the average reader, who shouldn't have to check meanings of terms used to understand an article. So, is "kanji" accepted as a word which has entered the English language yet?
I'm asking here because I'm having an attack of guilt after changing an editor's choice of "Chinese characters" to "kanji" in an article, but realised that the same issue may come up in any Japan related article and that it might be desirable to have a common usage across the board. -- DrHacky 15:54, 13 August 2007 (UTC)
Hello. I would like to start several stubs about Japanese volcanoes, to kill redlinks in List of volcanoes in Japan. All Indonesian and almost all Russian volcanoes have already their articles.
Point is, I don't know if there is any naming convention for Japanese mountains. How should I, e.g., name this: [3] volcano? Suwanosejima, Suwanose-jima or maybe just Suwanose? Same with -yama suffix [4], and -dake suffix [5]. I guess I should name X-yama article as Mount X. Please, help. Thanks. - Darwinek 12:18, 15 August 2007 (UTC)
SJones seems to disagree with my use of apostrophes in the following Death Note character:
I had the apostrophe placed to distinguish Ei-i-chi from E-ii-chi (As in LOC Hepburn, Ei is "double e" and ii is "double i")
What should the MOS say about apostrophes to distinguish ii and ei? WhisperToMe 23:12, 16 August 2007 (UTC)
"In words of Japanese or Chinese origin, the long vowel i is written ii."
Since I believe this is what we are using on here, this is why the distinction is made... WhisperToMe 01:07, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
To be honest, I do not ever disagree with WhisperToMe's use of apostrophes in the following Death Note character:
Greg Jones II 00:37, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Just my two cents--the distinction seems unnecessary. CES 01:36, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Anyway, to prove this practice is common, Google "Kei'ichi" http://www.google.com/search?q=%22Kei%27ichi%22&hl=en&safe=active&start=10&sa=N - It brings hits showing "kei'ichi" OR "Kei-ichi" WhisperToMe 07:04, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Also, here's one for "Ei'ichiro" http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=active&q=%22Ei%27ichiro%22&btnG=Search WhisperToMe 07:05, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
Other examples of "modified Hepburn":
WhisperToMe 07:21, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
What I meant was, since kanji breaks between o and u are recognized in the romanization system, why should the kanji breaks between an "i" and an "i" be un-recognized? Is it because there are few characters that have "ii" ? IMO, the way to solve this is to find out if the Hepburn system used by the Library of Congress details how it treats kanji breaks for i's. I'll contact the LOC and ask about the issue. WhisperToMe 01:37, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
EDIT: I used this http://www.loc.gov/rr/askalib/ to ask the question to the LOC Librarian.
If the LOC Hepburn does NOT specify what to do in this case, the Wikipedians here should decide whether to include the apostrophe.
If it DOES specify, I would add content to the "Hepburn romanization" article. WhisperToMe 01:45, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
It seems likely, then, that the LOC would romanize without "'"s - I will let you know what the person at the LOC help desk tells me. I also asked for a source which explains the romanization. If the LOC does not address this issue at all, then it seems that we should drop the apostrophes with the i's and e's. WhisperToMe 05:54, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
Well, it all comes down to this: I'm opposed to using unnecessary apostrophes and hyphens (since I brought that up) when romanizing Japanese here on Wikipedia. I can see no valid reason to adopt a rarely-used (really, it is rare) romanization option like this. I'd also support adding a line to the MOS-JA to that effect (don't use unnecessary and excessive apostrophes and hyphens). ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 08:17, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
I started writing redirects regarding this (i.e. Ki'i Peninsula and Ki-i Peninsula now redirect to Kii Peninsula) - I still have not received an answer from the LOC librarian regarding this. Once we get the answer (the librarian will probably say to write the name "Eiichi") - The document explaining this will be used as a source to explain Wikipedia's convention WhisperToMe 21:01, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
While we are at it, I also noticed that some people use apostrophe's to differentiate between n's in adjacent kanji (i.e. Sen'nin) and sokuon-n (I do not know any examples of sokuon-n) - Should I ask the librarian about this as well? WhisperToMe 21:04, 18 August 2007 (UTC)
For instance, Nara Prefectural Government is hosting this document [6] - Yes, it can be argued that Nara's choice to use the marks is screwy, but nethertheless it is a sometimes-used variant, and so a redirect should be made. Also, Camrbidge University has some document mentioning "Ki'i" hosted, but I only see the abstract of it, as the university wants payment for access to the full document. I am willing to make as many redirects as I can, by the way, so I do not see this as a waste of time for myself. WhisperToMe 00:20, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Doceirias, I've lost the point of this discussion. If you are simply making redirects, then I see no problem per se ... we all need hobbies ... but to me it seems about as pointless as redirecting all pages to, say, their JSL or Kunreishiki equivalent. At least in that case they are established romanization schemes unlike this e'i business. If you are not proposing a MoS policy change, can we consider this discussion closed? CES 11:35, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I want a line in the MOS that at least addresses this (and states to not insert dashes or apostrophes to distinguish i)(i and (ii). Is this fine, CES? (And, if you wish, add a similar line about n)(n and (sokuon)n, stating not to insert apostrophes and dashes in that case) WhisperToMe 13:50, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
EDIT: SJones added the line for it :) - Thank you! - http://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_%28Japan-related_articles%29&curid=345326&diff=152245813&oldid=149718818 WhisperToMe 14:01, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
This is from the librarian: "According to the ALA-LC Romanization Tables: Transliteration Schemes for Non-Roman Scripts, approved by the Library of Congress and the American Library Association, it should be Eiichi." - The case is closed, folks! :) - The consensus here is clear and the message is clear: Do not distinguish between i)(i and (ii)
And this is our Hepburn source. This will be used for the Hepburn romanization article: http://www.loc.gov/catdir/cpso/roman.html
"Library of Congress, and American Library Association. 1997. ALA-LC Romanization Tables: Transliteration Schemes for Non-Roman Scripts. Washington: Cataloging Distribution Service, Library of Congress."
WhisperToMe 15:18, 21 August 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Anime- and manga-related articles) has been created to help organize all anime- and manga-related style issues in one spot and to keep the WP:ANIME page from becoming more crowded. Please come participate in discussions if you wish. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihonjoe 06:23, 25 August 2007 (UTC)
So, the discussion doesn't follow in the "right way direction "(closer meaning), so it is closed. Heh. Well, was very informative, ayway...
Darkoneko
02:31, 15 September 2007 (UTC)
Readers, editors and miscellaneous other enthusiasts of this MoS page may have noticed some strange fluctuations over the last day or so, in the template that tells people that it's part of MoS and what this means. There's been this version (and minor variants thereof) and this version (and ditto) -- and [yawn] something of an edit war between them.
So which do you like, and why? I have my own distinct preference. Not unusually, I seem to be in the minority. Join the "debate" and enjoy clobbering me into submission, uh I mean reaching a consensus on the optimum solution in an adult fashion. -- Hoary 01:06, 11 September 2007 (UTC)
Some people apparantly claim that the section "Names of companies, products, and organizations" justifies keeping characters like ∞, ♥ and the like even though MOS:TM expressly forbids it. I've been around long enough to know why this section was inserted (I've followed the discussion back then) and it had to do with issues of spelling and romanization (things like "ō" versus "ou", "o" and "oh"). It was at the time definately not intended for things like this. In my opinion odd characters like I mentioned earlier are a style / logofication issue and should be subject to the same rules as ALL CAPS, which that section also never intended to cover. I would also like to note that I'm in good company: see Trademark, Schmademark. Shinobu 14:37, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps we should somehow edit the wording of the styleguide somewhere to emphasise that MOS:TM's funny symbol guideline applies to Japan-related articles as well? On the one side, I'm against it, because after all it is a Wikipedia-wide guideline, not specific to Japan-related articles at all, but on the other hand this issue does seem to crop up more with Japan-related articles. Another question is whether MOS:TM is the ideal location for the "funny symbol style guide". Next thing you know, people start arguing that such-and-so is not a trademark and thus the little bunny in the title is perfectly okay. Shinobu 19:45, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
You make a good point. Because I was thinking about the funny symbols, I completely forgot to see that this of course applies to all caps, lowercase initials, etc. too.
Regarding the MOS:TM link, perhaps it's simply in the wrong place. Perhaps if we moved it to the intro, or renamed the section, or added another section? Perhaps a new section name could be "Formatting issues in Roman script" or something, and explicitly state that all MOS:TM's guidelines do apply to all trademarks. Or, if the MOS:TM guide gets more general, universally.
You and I may take these things more or less for granted, but apparently some don't and need extra guidance. I also think that in the end, regardless of which styleguide trumps which one, all styleguides should also try to be consistent.
Also, if we are serious about this MOS:TM thing, it's perhaps better to take it there. This talk page discusses Japan-related article guidelines specifically, after all. Shinobu 14:42, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Jefu removed the following image from Emperor Juntoku. His explanation for this decision was tersely worded.
I can guess about Jefu's plausible arguments, but I leave it to him to make them here so that others may offer suggestions or comment.
This is a "portrait" representation of a 12th century emperor. I believe that this image was appropriately posted by 1549bcp in 2005. Moreover, I would expect other Hyakunin Isshu "portraits" to metastasize in this and other Wikipedias.
For information beyond what you can find in the internally-linked article (and in the two external links which are posted at the bottom of that page), here are three useful web sites:
In my view, this specific image adds depth to Wikipedia by exemplifying an interesting strategy for bringing Japanese history and literature to life across the centuries between then and now.
If a better likeness of Juntoku becomes available, this one can be replaced -- of course; but in the absence of anything else, it's hard for me to see how anyone can assess this visual aid as meaningless. -- Ooperhoofd 21:38, 26 September 2007 (UTC)
It is meaningless because it isn't a likeness of anyone. Unless a portrait is contemporary, and therefore a likeness of the person in question, it's value in a biographical article is highly suspect to say the least. The only time I can imagine any such image having any value would be if it has become a well-known work of art in and of itself and has therefore become strongly associated with its subject (even if such association is false). To include a picture drawn who-knows-when by who-knows-who taken from what is essentially a glorified deck of playing cards and suggest that it is a likeness of an actual person is tantamount to fraud. I'm also highly skeptical of the current 15th century picture, but since it is probably a fairly well-known work of art in and of itself and is clearly dated to a time period several hundred years after the subject lived, I'm inclined to leave it.- Jefu 12:46, 29 September 2007 (UTC)
In recent months, I've been working on the pre-Meiji List of Emperors of Japan, mainly adding citations and references. From my perspective, the usefulness of two sub-headings is enhanced by the term - tenno as a suffix. Bendono questioned me about this, but agreed to give me time to formulate an argument to explain my point-of-view.
My preference:
Other editors would prefer:
A general context for this trivial "controversy" is presented concisely in a 2005 edit to Emperor of Japan which was written by Jefu.
For today, my brief argument devolves into just two unrelated chains of reasoning:
I am grateful that Bendono gave me time to think this through. If necessary, of course, I will re-edit each sub-heading if this specific use of the -tennō suffix is not perceived as a helpful step towards making Wikipedia better.
What do you make of this? Does this belong here? -- Ooperhoofd 22:28, 27 September 2007 (UTC)
Fg2 makes a compelling point when he explains that consistent use makes the word tenno as much a "false friend" as the word "emperor". He has actively engaged the thrust of my argument, reconstructed it, and focused on a crucial flaw in a line of reasoning which goes back to my original intent. He also identified ancillary issues which arise from my implied views about how sub-headings can be or should be construed. A good, clear-headed analysis. -- Ooperhoofd 15:51, 28 September 2007 (UTC)
Fg2's comments caused me to re-visit all the sub-headings in the List of Emperors of Japan from the 6th century Emperor Kimmei through the 19th century Emperor Komei. All are now made consistent with Fg2's suggestions. My conforming actions create a context in which to complain and disagree. While I am persuaded that the sub-headings are the wrong fulcrum points, and I continue to appreciate ways in which the tennō suffix can't be more than a thin lever at best, I'm not content. Mine is not the kind of "unquestioning conformity" which Hoary derogates with good reason.
Jefu perhaps tries to devalue my efforts here by classifying this as "just a repeat of many past discussions on this topic," but he brings up an important point for me. In Yogi Berra's American idiomatic language: "It ain't over till it's over." I recognize that Fg2 is only presenting the current best thinking of a consensus of well-meaning, well-informed en:Wiki-editors who concern themselves with things having to do with Japan -- not a bad thing, really ... but I have to wonder if that's just not good enough in the long term, not flexible enough, not open-ended enough.
Without dwelling on either, I want to underscore two things this was never about:
Fg2 filleted my imperfect reasoning with élan -- and the nearly 100 edits conforming to his suggestions do demonstrate my assent. I can't emphasize this enough. And yet, I'm still not feeling finished with this. Ah, yes -- there's the rub. Do you see my point? Of course, if it turns out that my persistence were mere personal intransigence, this will matter not at all. For now, we can only wait to see what develops as the future unfolds. I predict that we will be returning to some sort of variation on similar themes in the near future.
Switching gears a bit: Wouldn't it be seemly for me to say "thanks" here? After all, I started this thread with questions, and I have garnered valuable and thoughtful feedback. -- Ooperhoofd 13:20, 30 September 2007 (UTC)
In the lengthy exchange above, it becomes clear that my views were more wrong than right. As I continue to mull it over, I do understand that I was heading down the wrong path; and yet, the niggling allure of the term "tenno" still persists in the back of my mind.
I am actively considering how best to act on Jefu's suggestion that I append an etymological paragraph in Wictionary. For now, my primary focus (and the greatest impetus towards continued restraint) devolves from one complex and crucial point made by Fg2:
With Fg2's potent caveat in mind, I guess I need to revisit my POV about the reigns of Empress Suiko through Emperor Reizei -- Suiko's reign being about the time when the term tennō was initially adopted, [1] and Reizei's reign being the time when the use of tennō was formally discontinued. [2] Also, I guess I need to re-examine my POV about the 19th-century reigns of Emperor Ninko and Emperor Komei when the use of tennō was revived. Whether these turn out to be profitable veins of investigation remains unclear, of course; but from my perspective, this MOS exercise was clearly worthwhile. -- Ooperhoofd 19:19, 4 October 2007 (UTC)
An editor has started a discussion at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style#Too many (allegedly) regional subpages about consolidating all regional style guidelines into one. Fg2 10:54, 14 October 2007 (UTC)
I was reviewing the article Kamiizumi Nobutsuna, which raised the following questions in my mind, for which perhaps a style rule ought to exist.
Thank you, Bradford44 17:51, 18 October 2007 (UTC)
I came to this discussion a bit late, but here are some thoughts on the above.
In many cases, the "no" that you see in historical Japanese names (I don't think it is used at all today) is very similar to the "of" equivalents ("von", "van", "di", "de" etc.) that you see in many European names, like Warner von Braun, Edward Van Halen, Al Di Meola, Charles de Gaulle, etc. And, although capitalization of these prepositional name components varies (even from individual to individual), I have never seen them written with hyphens. Therefore, regarding the question about hyphens, I would suggest that the same should be true when Romanizing a Japanese name.
However, it is also important to point out that there are two different "no" phenomena identified in the discussion above. The first is where "no" is used to link a surname (or a clan name, etc.) and a given name together. Examples of this include "Soga no Umako", "Fujiwara no Michinaga", "Minamoto no Yoritomo", etc. The second is where the "no" is used as part of a phrase that is actually a title. An example of this is the "Ise no Kami" example given at the outset of the discussion. As CES points out, these are not middle names in the Western sense. For those, I am personally more open to hyphenating the title to keep it "one word" while noting how it is broken up into its grammatical consituents because, unlike true "names", the actual meaning of the phrase is of crucial importance.
Another phenomenon at work here that makes historical Japanese names potentially confusing is the fact that people sometimes take several different names throughout their life, such as birth names, coming-of-age names or names that were given to them upon being granted some rank or position of authority. For example, Yoshitsune was actually named Ushiwakamaru at birth. He took the name Yoshitsune at his coming-of-age (genpuku) ceremony, and that is the name he is commonly known by today. And Hideyoshi is a good example of someone who went through quite a few renamings as he moved up from peasant farmer to the most powerful man in the country.
In addition, although the "-ro" words (like Taro, Jiro, Saburo, etc.) can and are used as actual names, in the case of Yoshitsune, although you do hear it in very formal sounding references to him, I think I would consider the term "Kuro" to be a descriptive term rather than an actual component of his name.
Finally, I think the article titles should just be the name that is most commonly associated with the person in Japan. Other components of the name should be set out in the article as appropriate (e.g. a fuller name in the opening paragraph, older names that were later replaced at appropriate points in the biographical narrative, etc.) At the end of the day, the best guide on how to title the articles and treat the various names, of course, is the Japanese language article for the same individual. If anyone has any questions about a specific person, drop me a note on my talk page. I would be happy to help out by confirming the Japanese version of the article, etc. I think at the end of the day, while we can probably put a few general rules in place, most will have to be determined on a case-by-case basis.- Jefu 06:49, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
In the Using Japanese in the article body section, it starts with In a narrative article. I seem to remember that the narrative language was put in, in order to preserve lists of terms/places/people which could benefit from having all the kanji appear in one page. In other words, if someone was looking for a specific sumo term, or train station on a particular line, the article would facilitate that. Recently, some lists like these have been edited to remove the kanji. What is the current feeling about lists (not narrative paragraphs) with the kanji? Neier 04:55, 20 October 2007 (UTC)
I've modified the section. Neier 09:08, 22 October 2007 (UTC)