![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Several months ago, we had a discussion on the inclusion of spaces in names, which resulted in a concensus to split the kanji in the introduction (小泉<SPACE>純一郎) etc. The MoS currently has that in the WP:MOS-JA#Names of modern figures section; but not the WP:MOS-JA#Names of historical figures section. I can't see any reason or discussion on separating the usage of the SPACE between two cases, so I think it should be added to the historical figures section. I would change it myself, except, I just reverted an edit to Tokugawa Ieyasu which had removed the space. Even though he is the example listing in the historical names section (with the space), adding the sentence to the MoS directly after reverting an edit like that might be considered bad form. Neier 20:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Are you talking about a transliteration system? If so, it must be a transliteration of Kana script which is devoid of long vowels. If not, it must be a transcription of the Japanese language and you must reinvent the whole wheel of the syllabary or phonology. But then I wonder how you can talk about anything but the language of a specific time and region or a dialect. Please read Talk:Romanization of Japanese#An Extended-Hepburn System Kmns tsw 23:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia already has policies on capitalization; however, it seems that Japan-related articles are especially subject to violations, due in part to the way that the roman alphabet is (mis)treated by sources in Japan. I don't think we need to break any ground by setting any new policies, but, I think it is not a bad idea to add a section to our MoS that enforces the point that Japan-related articles are not exceptions to WP:MOS-TM and WP:MOSCAPS (especially #2 in WP:MOSCAPS#All caps. Discussion or opposition? Neier 00:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Changes were made. I think it is a little more forceful than what was there already. Neier 06:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree. Lets' not' forget the craz'y apostrophe's to! (FLET'S) Brettr 13:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Me too. During the last three minutes I've revisited the article Harajuku, marveled again at WP's editors' huge preference for the description of "references" (no matter how daft or trivial) in "popular culture" to X rather than a description of X, seen that at least one of these "references" wasn't American but was instead by the Japanese popsters "Puffy", taken a quick look at their article (in which they're called by their longwinded US-market name despite being bigger in Japan), and taken the link therefrom to " Hi Hi PUFFY Bu", whose dutiful write-up of Puffy-cruft, sorry, PUFFY-cruft, has a certain comedic value that I presume was unintended. (Has corporate Japan really succeeded in some evil plan of defeating the Occident by mass infantilization?) -- Hoary 23:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
In a vein similar to the suggestion about capitalization above, I would like to propose a clarification regarding the use of italics for foreign-language terms. Even this MOS itself isn't consistent in its use of italics, although they appear to be mandated for anything not introduced into English (per Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Foreign terms). Consistent italicization would also be a useful visual cue for clarifying which terms should use macrons and which shouldn't ( tankōbon or sumo, but never tankōbon or sumo). Dekimasu よ! 07:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
How about resolving this by the addition of a numbered point in the section on body text romanization, simply to the effect that "transliterated terms should be italicized in accordance with Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Foreign terms"? Dekimasu よ! 10:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm interested in everyone's opinions on Utada Hikaru versus Hikaru Utada. The current page goes against the MoS: For a modern figure (a person born from the first year of Meiji (1868) onward), always use the Western order of given name + family name . There is an old discussion at Talk:Utada Hikaru#Requested move, but, it looks like none of the WP:MOS-JA regulars were aware of it (or, at least, did not vote). Is the stage name "Utada Hikaru" popular enough to earn an exception to our rules? Or, does it even matter how popular the name is? Neier 12:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
her music released in the USA? I seem to remember that Exodus was published domestically... the others might only be available as imports. If Exodus was released under "Hikaru Utada", that should seal the deal. Dekimasu よ! 13:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, if we just go by the cover of the Exodus CD, that doesn't decide anything. In fact, it actually goes more toward using Hikaru Utada rather than Utada Hikaru since it uses simply "Utada" as her artist name on the cover. So, it may be time to revisit the location of her article here. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon joe 22:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I honestly did not intend for this to turn into a debate over our arbitrary 1868 dividing point; but, only whether there was any reason to hold an exception to our arbitrary 1868 dividing point. I was leaning towards "no exception" in this case, and it seems that most of the comments agree with that.
As for the 1868 cut-off date; it makes it easy for editors, but, confusing for everyone else. While generally we should avoid making rules specifically for the ease of editors (Wikipedia being primarily for the readers), I think we need to have a naming order rule in order to prevent chaos and constant page moves. Having the order spelled out in the MoS at least keeps things stable. The only alternative to the 1868 rule that I can see garnering any support is forcing all Japanese articles to be ordered "FamilyName GivenName". Then, we have a gray area about "what is a Japanese article"? Is Kazuo Ishiguro Japanese? How about Ayako Fujitani? Even in clear cases of Japanese-ness, we would see outrage from Wikipedia editors in general when we renamed Suzuki Ichiro and Matsui Hideki.
By obliging ourselves to the idea that names in the format <First name> <Last name> are usually the least problematic we can avoid those troubles, and simply move the controversy to historical figures. Nobody wants to see a page titled Ieyasu Tokugawa, so to avoid that, we have to find a way to discriminately determine how we order a person's name. The Meji divide is a pretty good compromise in that resort. Neier 01:13, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
A lot of you are editing Japanese pages and don't the history of Japanese name order? The decision was taken by Monbusho to use given-name family-name order in English to avoid confusion for foreigners in the Meiji Era. Recently the policy has been relaxed to allow people to choose the order used but bucking the established order is unusual. Utada is on record as saying the name order Utada Hikaru was not intended for English use but was simply using romaji on her Japanese CD (I've heard her say this and this is mentioned in the wiki article). Also if you look at sites like Amazon you'll see her name written Hikaru Utada. Brettr 05:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Now that we've come this far, it seems like there is no disagreement that the article should be at Hikaru Utada under the current guidance of this MOS. Further, some people don't like the rules that are in place. Can we all agree on that interpretation of the answer to the original question? Dekimasu よ! 05:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Hoary, I have already directed you to evidence that Utada's name is written Hikaru Utada in English (although she usually just goes under the name Utada). The former requires no inversion and is my preference. My point is that your preference is completely irrelevant. There are official government policies, wikipedia policies and what you think is irrelevant, unless of course your name happens to be 宇多田光 or 土門拳. As for my name notice I used the active voice "... many foreigners do reverse their names..." not that we "have our name reversed". Surely you don't expect me to prove the usage of my name? Your usage of macrons is cute, exactly which style of ローマ字 is Monbushō written in? Brettr 03:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
"Utada Hikaru VS Hikaru Utada" seem to be in conflict once again. — ■~∀SÐFムサ~■ =] Babashi? antenna? 17:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
On April 1, both Hamamatsu, Shizuoka and Niigata, Niigata became designated cities. In Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)/City naming#Group 1: Designated cities with unique names, we somewhat reached concensus to move some city articles to their name without , Prefecture. So, I was WP:BOLD and already moved Hamamatsu because it met the same criteria ( Hamamatsu was already a redirect to Hamamatsu, Shizuoka).
Niigata is similar to Shizuoka, in that the DAB page links only to the prefecture and the city. In those two cases, I think that we could redirect the DAB to the city, and put a {{ for}} tag on the top that points to the prefecture. DABs for other cities, such as Kawasaki, are more complicated, and should not be changed. Opinions? Neier 09:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Another editor moved Itchō Itō to Itcho Ito last night. Tetsuya Shiroo uses a doubled o instead of an ō, but the name "breaks" between the os: 城 (Shiro) 尾 (o). I believe the first article should be returned to the Itchō Itō title, but I am unsure if the romanization of Shiroo should be changed to Shirō. Advice? -- JHunterJ 11:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
In that case, you may choose between any of the three romanizations I encountered, but you may not use macrons:
Read MOS-JA for details
Shiroo is to stay "Shiroo" WhisperToMe 15:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
"Macron usage in the name of a modern figure should adhere to the following, in order of preference: 1. Use the official trade name if available in English/Latin alphabet; 2. Use the form found in a dictionary entry from a generally-accepted English dictionary; 3. Use the form publicly used on behalf of the person in the English-speaking world; 4. Use the form publicly used on behalf of the person in any other popular Latin-alphabet-using language (French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, German, and Dutch, or variations); or 5. If none of the above is available, use the macronned form."
Ito is now known in English because his death was reported via various press sources all over the world.
I had to tell Nightstallion that he was mistaken about the MOS-JA. WhisperToMe 15:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
What is the format we should use for formatting these terms? I notice an article at Shun-Ka-Shū-Tō, another at Ichi-go ichi-e, Yojijukugo itself is all run together (if we can consider it an example of itself), and there are several other possible formats as well. The form with three hyphens and four capital letters seems a little extreme to me, but other than that I'm not sure what's best. Dekimasu よ! 10:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia has no system for its names for historic capitals of Japan. We have
They're also written variously in piped links in articles.
As you can see, the questions include
Out of the various possibilities, these are in use:
In addition, of course, there's the English word "Tokyo" for the modern (not historic) capital.
Suggestions?
Fg2 22:29, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Shall we declare this decided? It's been two weeks with unanimous agreement. The names are to follow the pattern Fujiwara-kyō. Fg2 07:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
This template seems to have caught on recently. It's now transcluded in ~300 articles, up from 5 or so when I first started using it late last year. However, it's now appearing in articles that might not need it - Motojiro Kajii ( this revision), for example, already uses the Western order predominantly, and makes the Japanese order clear using Template:Nihongo.
This seems a good time to establish some usage guidelines for the template, ideally including a mention on this MOS page. The choices would be:
I'm currently following 2, but I wouldn't be violently opposed to 1. In any case, I'd like to find out what the consensus is so I know I'm not flying in its face. - Ben Ram 00:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Greetings. First, I would like thank User:LordAmeth for pointing me to these guidelines. I have read through them as well as through nearly a dozen (and counting) of relevant archives. I realize that I do not really have anything "new" to write that has not been discussed previously. However, I would still like to make a few comments.
I am a university undergraduate. While I have not yet declared a major, I have been taking many Japanese history courses. At the beginning of each quarter, the professors (and sometimes TAs, as well) always give a similar lecture about spelling Japanese terms properly. The gist of the lecture is that some terms (places, people, technical vocabulary) need bars (called macrons I think) to be spelled properly. We are warned that some publications seem to relax this requirement and omit them, but that this is incorrect and unacceptable at a university level. During the freshmen courses, some leniency is given at first, but by the sophomore level, papers with misspelled words are returned with no credit. This seems fair since all of our textbooks explicitly use the bars as well. Some professors distribute supplemental lists of relevant terms with proper spellings for reference.
I have always loved Wikipedia. It is a great treasure trove of information. Many of the historical topics that I have been learning about are well covered here on Wikipedia. For a large part, Wikipedia uses the bars as my textbooks and university teaches. However, there are major (and minor) exceptions.
Occasionally there is class discussion about how sites such as Wikipedia sometimes omit the bars in contrast to our textbooks and university requirements. This often causes large conflicts and generally ends in people condemning Wikipedia as being of poor and unacceptable quality. It would be so much simpler if spelling could be consistent throughout. Granted, it is a little more work to type, but it seems to be more correct and expected at a professional level. I suspect it is just laziness that people omit them.
As an encyclopedia, I would expect the information to be correct both in details and in spelling. While I think that Wikpedia is on the right track, there are too many exceptions. For instance, the section titled "English words of Japanese origin" seems to be a major source of problems. Several examples suggest "Tokyo, jujutsu, and shogi, instead of [...] Tōkyō, jūjutsu, and shōgi". Why? I am a native speaker of English (and do not know any Japanese). However, it is easy to find reference books using the macron form. Note that I have read and comprehend WP:UE. However, just omitting the bars does not make it any more (or less) English. The only example in that section which in my opinion has anything to do with English is Mount Fuji vs. Fuji-san. (I agree that Mount Fuji should be preferred in this case.)
Is it too late to add my vote to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)/Prefectures and macrons? Both Kyōto and Ōsaka are extremely important in history. I think that Tōkyō could be a potential problem, but it is historically known as Edo so I can often ignore the issue (not to say that it should not be fixed, though). Needless to say, Wikipedia uses the spellings Kyoto, Osaka, and Tokyo which is disappointing to say the least.
Going through the archives, it seems apparent that many play the numbers game. This seems flawed in several respects. 1) In a casual environment, people will usually abbreviate and type what is easier for them (i.e., no special marks). 2) Some resources, in particular professional and academic texts, should be more reliable than the average source even though they are fewer in number.
I think that the current exceptions and inconsistency hurt Wikipedia as an encyclopedia of knowledge. These exceptions are often contrary to professional and academic texts and ultimately hurt Wikipedia as an encyclopedia of knowledge. As much as I like Wikipedia, it is difficult to continue to defend and recommend it with the present guidelines.
I have been warned to expect opposition. And I can see that there are strong opinions from the archives. Nevertheless, I felt a need to express my opinion on the subject. TwilightEclipse 11:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I do not think it falls under Wikipedia's jurisdiction to decide what has been made into English, or not. All Japanese words that require a bar should be spelt that way because that will reenforce correct spelling. If Wikipedia recognizes that spelling is something that should be consistent, then the Japanese Encyclopedia of Language would be the best book to consult on spelling, rather than a Google search. Google does not necessarily reflect the correct spelling of a word. Another good place to consult is the Language Divison of the Japanese Cultural Affairs Agency. Newshinjitsu 09:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)NewShinjitsu
I have reworded the preference rules which previously specified only macron usage to apply to spelling in general. Generalizing the rule explicitly makes it a standard by which we can make decisions like "Hirohito-or-Emperor-Showa". -- Meyer 02:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
There's sort of a debate going on in the Koda Talk Page about how Koda's name should be written. Personally, I prefer her name being written Koda Kumi as opposed to Kumi Koda, and here's why:
Her original name is "Koda Kumiko" (神田來未子), but when she debuted as an Avex artist, she decided to respell her name as "Koda Kumi" (倖田來未). As someone else in the talk page stated earlier, this is a nickname and should be followed as such. Also, when her products are released, Avex writes her name in English as "Koda Kumi" and not "Kumi Koda".
Also, according to the Pseudonym section: In the case of an actor, athlete, author, artist or other individual who is more well known under a pseudonym, use the pseudonym as the article title, and note the additional names they may use (e.g., birth name, other pseudonyms), following the standards above. So, I'm guessing we should go ahead and go with Koda Kumi. If we should not, please tell us so there is a conclusion to thsi confusion. XaiTerran 22:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The entire debate about name order seems utterly stupid to me. Standard academic practice when writing in English is to use the preferred name order of the subject, thus Mishima Yukio (not Yukio Mishima); Murakami Haruki (not Haruki Murakami); and Asō Tarō, not Taro Aso. Exploding Boy 01:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Talk:Kōichi_Yamadera#Moving_article
Why was this discussion made in the first place?
A quick search on Amazon reveals the official romanization of Yamadera as "Koichi Yamadera" - Production IG also uses that name http://production-ig.com/contents/works_sp/03_/s03_/index.html - As does the official Cowboy Bebop website.
Remember the order of preference for names? Macrons almost always go dead last because English publications almost always withhold macrons. WhisperToMe 05:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Hoary, according to dictionary.com, "behalf" may also be defined as: 2. in or on (someone's) behalf, in the interest or aid of (someone): He interceded in my behalf. From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Behalf
http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Behalf states: "A body of opinion favors in with the “interest, benefit” sense of behalf and on with the “support, defense” sense. This distinction has been observed by some writers but overall has never had a sound basis in actual usage. In current British use, on behalf (of) has replaced in behalf (of); both are still used in American English, but the distinction is frequently not observed."
As in Koichi Yamadera did not have to explicitly state "this is how I would like for my name to be romanized" in order for this to fit THAT definition WhisperToMe 20:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Several months ago, we had a discussion on the inclusion of spaces in names, which resulted in a concensus to split the kanji in the introduction (小泉<SPACE>純一郎) etc. The MoS currently has that in the WP:MOS-JA#Names of modern figures section; but not the WP:MOS-JA#Names of historical figures section. I can't see any reason or discussion on separating the usage of the SPACE between two cases, so I think it should be added to the historical figures section. I would change it myself, except, I just reverted an edit to Tokugawa Ieyasu which had removed the space. Even though he is the example listing in the historical names section (with the space), adding the sentence to the MoS directly after reverting an edit like that might be considered bad form. Neier 20:43, 12 March 2007 (UTC)
Are you talking about a transliteration system? If so, it must be a transliteration of Kana script which is devoid of long vowels. If not, it must be a transcription of the Japanese language and you must reinvent the whole wheel of the syllabary or phonology. But then I wonder how you can talk about anything but the language of a specific time and region or a dialect. Please read Talk:Romanization of Japanese#An Extended-Hepburn System Kmns tsw 23:49, 17 March 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia already has policies on capitalization; however, it seems that Japan-related articles are especially subject to violations, due in part to the way that the roman alphabet is (mis)treated by sources in Japan. I don't think we need to break any ground by setting any new policies, but, I think it is not a bad idea to add a section to our MoS that enforces the point that Japan-related articles are not exceptions to WP:MOS-TM and WP:MOSCAPS (especially #2 in WP:MOSCAPS#All caps. Discussion or opposition? Neier 00:22, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
Changes were made. I think it is a little more forceful than what was there already. Neier 06:29, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
I agree. Lets' not' forget the craz'y apostrophe's to! (FLET'S) Brettr 13:06, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
Me too. During the last three minutes I've revisited the article Harajuku, marveled again at WP's editors' huge preference for the description of "references" (no matter how daft or trivial) in "popular culture" to X rather than a description of X, seen that at least one of these "references" wasn't American but was instead by the Japanese popsters "Puffy", taken a quick look at their article (in which they're called by their longwinded US-market name despite being bigger in Japan), and taken the link therefrom to " Hi Hi PUFFY Bu", whose dutiful write-up of Puffy-cruft, sorry, PUFFY-cruft, has a certain comedic value that I presume was unintended. (Has corporate Japan really succeeded in some evil plan of defeating the Occident by mass infantilization?) -- Hoary 23:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)
In a vein similar to the suggestion about capitalization above, I would like to propose a clarification regarding the use of italics for foreign-language terms. Even this MOS itself isn't consistent in its use of italics, although they appear to be mandated for anything not introduced into English (per Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Foreign terms). Consistent italicization would also be a useful visual cue for clarifying which terms should use macrons and which shouldn't ( tankōbon or sumo, but never tankōbon or sumo). Dekimasu よ! 07:34, 19 March 2007 (UTC)
How about resolving this by the addition of a numbered point in the section on body text romanization, simply to the effect that "transliterated terms should be italicized in accordance with Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Foreign terms"? Dekimasu よ! 10:00, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I'm interested in everyone's opinions on Utada Hikaru versus Hikaru Utada. The current page goes against the MoS: For a modern figure (a person born from the first year of Meiji (1868) onward), always use the Western order of given name + family name . There is an old discussion at Talk:Utada Hikaru#Requested move, but, it looks like none of the WP:MOS-JA regulars were aware of it (or, at least, did not vote). Is the stage name "Utada Hikaru" popular enough to earn an exception to our rules? Or, does it even matter how popular the name is? Neier 12:50, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
her music released in the USA? I seem to remember that Exodus was published domestically... the others might only be available as imports. If Exodus was released under "Hikaru Utada", that should seal the deal. Dekimasu よ! 13:04, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
Well, if we just go by the cover of the Exodus CD, that doesn't decide anything. In fact, it actually goes more toward using Hikaru Utada rather than Utada Hikaru since it uses simply "Utada" as her artist name on the cover. So, it may be time to revisit the location of her article here. ··· 日本穣 ? · Talk to Nihon joe 22:48, 30 March 2007 (UTC)
I honestly did not intend for this to turn into a debate over our arbitrary 1868 dividing point; but, only whether there was any reason to hold an exception to our arbitrary 1868 dividing point. I was leaning towards "no exception" in this case, and it seems that most of the comments agree with that.
As for the 1868 cut-off date; it makes it easy for editors, but, confusing for everyone else. While generally we should avoid making rules specifically for the ease of editors (Wikipedia being primarily for the readers), I think we need to have a naming order rule in order to prevent chaos and constant page moves. Having the order spelled out in the MoS at least keeps things stable. The only alternative to the 1868 rule that I can see garnering any support is forcing all Japanese articles to be ordered "FamilyName GivenName". Then, we have a gray area about "what is a Japanese article"? Is Kazuo Ishiguro Japanese? How about Ayako Fujitani? Even in clear cases of Japanese-ness, we would see outrage from Wikipedia editors in general when we renamed Suzuki Ichiro and Matsui Hideki.
By obliging ourselves to the idea that names in the format <First name> <Last name> are usually the least problematic we can avoid those troubles, and simply move the controversy to historical figures. Nobody wants to see a page titled Ieyasu Tokugawa, so to avoid that, we have to find a way to discriminately determine how we order a person's name. The Meji divide is a pretty good compromise in that resort. Neier 01:13, 1 April 2007 (UTC)
A lot of you are editing Japanese pages and don't the history of Japanese name order? The decision was taken by Monbusho to use given-name family-name order in English to avoid confusion for foreigners in the Meiji Era. Recently the policy has been relaxed to allow people to choose the order used but bucking the established order is unusual. Utada is on record as saying the name order Utada Hikaru was not intended for English use but was simply using romaji on her Japanese CD (I've heard her say this and this is mentioned in the wiki article). Also if you look at sites like Amazon you'll see her name written Hikaru Utada. Brettr 05:57, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Now that we've come this far, it seems like there is no disagreement that the article should be at Hikaru Utada under the current guidance of this MOS. Further, some people don't like the rules that are in place. Can we all agree on that interpretation of the answer to the original question? Dekimasu よ! 05:50, 3 April 2007 (UTC)
Hoary, I have already directed you to evidence that Utada's name is written Hikaru Utada in English (although she usually just goes under the name Utada). The former requires no inversion and is my preference. My point is that your preference is completely irrelevant. There are official government policies, wikipedia policies and what you think is irrelevant, unless of course your name happens to be 宇多田光 or 土門拳. As for my name notice I used the active voice "... many foreigners do reverse their names..." not that we "have our name reversed". Surely you don't expect me to prove the usage of my name? Your usage of macrons is cute, exactly which style of ローマ字 is Monbushō written in? Brettr 03:27, 4 April 2007 (UTC)
"Utada Hikaru VS Hikaru Utada" seem to be in conflict once again. — ■~∀SÐFムサ~■ =] Babashi? antenna? 17:39, 3 June 2007 (UTC)
On April 1, both Hamamatsu, Shizuoka and Niigata, Niigata became designated cities. In Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)/City naming#Group 1: Designated cities with unique names, we somewhat reached concensus to move some city articles to their name without , Prefecture. So, I was WP:BOLD and already moved Hamamatsu because it met the same criteria ( Hamamatsu was already a redirect to Hamamatsu, Shizuoka).
Niigata is similar to Shizuoka, in that the DAB page links only to the prefecture and the city. In those two cases, I think that we could redirect the DAB to the city, and put a {{ for}} tag on the top that points to the prefecture. DABs for other cities, such as Kawasaki, are more complicated, and should not be changed. Opinions? Neier 09:19, 2 April 2007 (UTC)
Another editor moved Itchō Itō to Itcho Ito last night. Tetsuya Shiroo uses a doubled o instead of an ō, but the name "breaks" between the os: 城 (Shiro) 尾 (o). I believe the first article should be returned to the Itchō Itō title, but I am unsure if the romanization of Shiroo should be changed to Shirō. Advice? -- JHunterJ 11:02, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
In that case, you may choose between any of the three romanizations I encountered, but you may not use macrons:
Read MOS-JA for details
Shiroo is to stay "Shiroo" WhisperToMe 15:53, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
"Macron usage in the name of a modern figure should adhere to the following, in order of preference: 1. Use the official trade name if available in English/Latin alphabet; 2. Use the form found in a dictionary entry from a generally-accepted English dictionary; 3. Use the form publicly used on behalf of the person in the English-speaking world; 4. Use the form publicly used on behalf of the person in any other popular Latin-alphabet-using language (French, Spanish, Italian, Portuguese, German, and Dutch, or variations); or 5. If none of the above is available, use the macronned form."
Ito is now known in English because his death was reported via various press sources all over the world.
I had to tell Nightstallion that he was mistaken about the MOS-JA. WhisperToMe 15:58, 18 April 2007 (UTC)
What is the format we should use for formatting these terms? I notice an article at Shun-Ka-Shū-Tō, another at Ichi-go ichi-e, Yojijukugo itself is all run together (if we can consider it an example of itself), and there are several other possible formats as well. The form with three hyphens and four capital letters seems a little extreme to me, but other than that I'm not sure what's best. Dekimasu よ! 10:57, 23 April 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia has no system for its names for historic capitals of Japan. We have
They're also written variously in piped links in articles.
As you can see, the questions include
Out of the various possibilities, these are in use:
In addition, of course, there's the English word "Tokyo" for the modern (not historic) capital.
Suggestions?
Fg2 22:29, 28 April 2007 (UTC)
Shall we declare this decided? It's been two weeks with unanimous agreement. The names are to follow the pattern Fujiwara-kyō. Fg2 07:45, 12 May 2007 (UTC)
This template seems to have caught on recently. It's now transcluded in ~300 articles, up from 5 or so when I first started using it late last year. However, it's now appearing in articles that might not need it - Motojiro Kajii ( this revision), for example, already uses the Western order predominantly, and makes the Japanese order clear using Template:Nihongo.
This seems a good time to establish some usage guidelines for the template, ideally including a mention on this MOS page. The choices would be:
I'm currently following 2, but I wouldn't be violently opposed to 1. In any case, I'd like to find out what the consensus is so I know I'm not flying in its face. - Ben Ram 00:51, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
Greetings. First, I would like thank User:LordAmeth for pointing me to these guidelines. I have read through them as well as through nearly a dozen (and counting) of relevant archives. I realize that I do not really have anything "new" to write that has not been discussed previously. However, I would still like to make a few comments.
I am a university undergraduate. While I have not yet declared a major, I have been taking many Japanese history courses. At the beginning of each quarter, the professors (and sometimes TAs, as well) always give a similar lecture about spelling Japanese terms properly. The gist of the lecture is that some terms (places, people, technical vocabulary) need bars (called macrons I think) to be spelled properly. We are warned that some publications seem to relax this requirement and omit them, but that this is incorrect and unacceptable at a university level. During the freshmen courses, some leniency is given at first, but by the sophomore level, papers with misspelled words are returned with no credit. This seems fair since all of our textbooks explicitly use the bars as well. Some professors distribute supplemental lists of relevant terms with proper spellings for reference.
I have always loved Wikipedia. It is a great treasure trove of information. Many of the historical topics that I have been learning about are well covered here on Wikipedia. For a large part, Wikipedia uses the bars as my textbooks and university teaches. However, there are major (and minor) exceptions.
Occasionally there is class discussion about how sites such as Wikipedia sometimes omit the bars in contrast to our textbooks and university requirements. This often causes large conflicts and generally ends in people condemning Wikipedia as being of poor and unacceptable quality. It would be so much simpler if spelling could be consistent throughout. Granted, it is a little more work to type, but it seems to be more correct and expected at a professional level. I suspect it is just laziness that people omit them.
As an encyclopedia, I would expect the information to be correct both in details and in spelling. While I think that Wikpedia is on the right track, there are too many exceptions. For instance, the section titled "English words of Japanese origin" seems to be a major source of problems. Several examples suggest "Tokyo, jujutsu, and shogi, instead of [...] Tōkyō, jūjutsu, and shōgi". Why? I am a native speaker of English (and do not know any Japanese). However, it is easy to find reference books using the macron form. Note that I have read and comprehend WP:UE. However, just omitting the bars does not make it any more (or less) English. The only example in that section which in my opinion has anything to do with English is Mount Fuji vs. Fuji-san. (I agree that Mount Fuji should be preferred in this case.)
Is it too late to add my vote to Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style (Japan-related articles)/Prefectures and macrons? Both Kyōto and Ōsaka are extremely important in history. I think that Tōkyō could be a potential problem, but it is historically known as Edo so I can often ignore the issue (not to say that it should not be fixed, though). Needless to say, Wikipedia uses the spellings Kyoto, Osaka, and Tokyo which is disappointing to say the least.
Going through the archives, it seems apparent that many play the numbers game. This seems flawed in several respects. 1) In a casual environment, people will usually abbreviate and type what is easier for them (i.e., no special marks). 2) Some resources, in particular professional and academic texts, should be more reliable than the average source even though they are fewer in number.
I think that the current exceptions and inconsistency hurt Wikipedia as an encyclopedia of knowledge. These exceptions are often contrary to professional and academic texts and ultimately hurt Wikipedia as an encyclopedia of knowledge. As much as I like Wikipedia, it is difficult to continue to defend and recommend it with the present guidelines.
I have been warned to expect opposition. And I can see that there are strong opinions from the archives. Nevertheless, I felt a need to express my opinion on the subject. TwilightEclipse 11:08, 7 May 2007 (UTC)
I do not think it falls under Wikipedia's jurisdiction to decide what has been made into English, or not. All Japanese words that require a bar should be spelt that way because that will reenforce correct spelling. If Wikipedia recognizes that spelling is something that should be consistent, then the Japanese Encyclopedia of Language would be the best book to consult on spelling, rather than a Google search. Google does not necessarily reflect the correct spelling of a word. Another good place to consult is the Language Divison of the Japanese Cultural Affairs Agency. Newshinjitsu 09:43, 31 May 2007 (UTC)NewShinjitsu
I have reworded the preference rules which previously specified only macron usage to apply to spelling in general. Generalizing the rule explicitly makes it a standard by which we can make decisions like "Hirohito-or-Emperor-Showa". -- Meyer 02:53, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
There's sort of a debate going on in the Koda Talk Page about how Koda's name should be written. Personally, I prefer her name being written Koda Kumi as opposed to Kumi Koda, and here's why:
Her original name is "Koda Kumiko" (神田來未子), but when she debuted as an Avex artist, she decided to respell her name as "Koda Kumi" (倖田來未). As someone else in the talk page stated earlier, this is a nickname and should be followed as such. Also, when her products are released, Avex writes her name in English as "Koda Kumi" and not "Kumi Koda".
Also, according to the Pseudonym section: In the case of an actor, athlete, author, artist or other individual who is more well known under a pseudonym, use the pseudonym as the article title, and note the additional names they may use (e.g., birth name, other pseudonyms), following the standards above. So, I'm guessing we should go ahead and go with Koda Kumi. If we should not, please tell us so there is a conclusion to thsi confusion. XaiTerran 22:20, 9 May 2007 (UTC)
The entire debate about name order seems utterly stupid to me. Standard academic practice when writing in English is to use the preferred name order of the subject, thus Mishima Yukio (not Yukio Mishima); Murakami Haruki (not Haruki Murakami); and Asō Tarō, not Taro Aso. Exploding Boy 01:20, 6 June 2007 (UTC)
Talk:Kōichi_Yamadera#Moving_article
Why was this discussion made in the first place?
A quick search on Amazon reveals the official romanization of Yamadera as "Koichi Yamadera" - Production IG also uses that name http://production-ig.com/contents/works_sp/03_/s03_/index.html - As does the official Cowboy Bebop website.
Remember the order of preference for names? Macrons almost always go dead last because English publications almost always withhold macrons. WhisperToMe 05:25, 10 May 2007 (UTC)
Hoary, according to dictionary.com, "behalf" may also be defined as: 2. in or on (someone's) behalf, in the interest or aid of (someone): He interceded in my behalf. From http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Behalf
http://mw1.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/Behalf states: "A body of opinion favors in with the “interest, benefit” sense of behalf and on with the “support, defense” sense. This distinction has been observed by some writers but overall has never had a sound basis in actual usage. In current British use, on behalf (of) has replaced in behalf (of); both are still used in American English, but the distinction is frequently not observed."
As in Koichi Yamadera did not have to explicitly state "this is how I would like for my name to be romanized" in order for this to fit THAT definition WhisperToMe 20:20, 10 May 2007 (UTC)