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Archive 15 | ← | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 |
Since this has been discussed on this page before, I thought this had long been settled, but apparently Edwardx disagrees. Citizens of Canadian First Nations and US federally recognized tribes are dual citizens, typically of Canada and the United States respectively (but not always). The US entered into treaties with tribes as foreign governments. In Worchester v. Georgia (1832) established Native American tribes as so-called " domestic dependent nations", which acknowledges their sovereignty that predates the establishment of the United States. Tribes have negotiated government-to-government relationships with the United States in the era of self-determination. [1]. Many people, including Wikipedia editors, mistakenly believe US federally recognized tribes are ethnic groups; [2] however, they are political entities. For example, the single tribe, Confederated Tribes of Siletz Indians, includes 27 different ethnic groups, while conversely the Pomo people are a single ethnic group, split across 21 different federally recognized tribes. As a citizen of a tribe and of the United States, I have treaty rights not accessible by non-tribal citizens and I have to abide by the laws of my tribal government and can seek redress in my tribal court system. Citizenship to both nation-state and a Native American tribe cannot quickly be inferred from place of birth. Yuchitown ( talk) 01:31, 13 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
Unless relevant to notability, Native American should not be in the first sentence of a BLP per MOS:CONTEXTBIO. I'm opposed to having "Muscogee (Creek) Nation" as a nationality [3]/citizenship in the infobox. From what I'm reading, this citizenship thing is only recognised domestically (Canada too? Same thing to me). So chaps can't come to jolly ol' England on a Muscogee passport, they'll be using their universally recognised US passport. For me, this would be like having "Cornish, British" in the infobox. – 2. O. Boxing 10:23, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
X is a Native American tiddlywinks world champion, the ethnicity would have to be relevant to their notability, not identity.The way you and others at WP:IPNA are editing is simply wrong. Rebecca Belmore should be listed as Canadian; Lac Seul First Nation is not a nationality and it shouldn't be in the citizenship parameter per Template:Infobox person,
Country of legal citizenship, if different from nationality(she should also be described as
Canadianin the lead per MOS:CONTEXTBIO). Same with Charles Curtis; Kaw Nation is not a nationality. I don't think the tribal citizenships should be mentioned in the lead at all unless it's somehow relevant to the person's notability (as can be argued for Charles Curtis), but that would be a different discussion. – 2. O. Boxing 21:28, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
X is a Native American bobsleigh Kingwould be in reference to ethnicity, not nationality. If you want to say it's not ethnicity, but "identity", then fine. But it's still not a nationality and should not be in the first sentence per CONTEXTBIO. From the first sentence of Nationality,
Nationality is a legal identification of a person in international law, establishing the person as a subject, a national, of a sovereign state. These tribal citizenships do not have recognition in international law and the tribes (regardless of the fact they have the word "nation" in their name), are not nations or sovereign states, by any stretch of the imagination. This has nothing to do with not liking something, but everything to do with following well-established guidelines instead of a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. – 2. O. Boxing 11:09, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
This declaration is a resolution, meaning it is not a law-bearing document. Indigenous peoples are not considered political nation-states and do not have access to international law protection through the international court of justice.So that would mean the nation state is still US under international law, and by extension, their nationality/citizenship is American. To me, including tribal citizenship implies it has the same recognition in an internationally-recognised legal sense, that being,
a subject, a national, of a sovereign state(country). I think the current wording of INFONAT accurately reflects the general understanding of nationality/citizenship,
the country to which the subject belongs. – 2. O. Boxing 18:46, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
Again, "Native Americans" and "Indigenous peoples" are different legal concepts, but the current wording on MOS:INFONAT already covers what I was trying to purpose, "When needed (e.g. due to change of nationality after birth, dual 'citizenship', or other unusual scenarios), use |nationality= unless |citizenship= is more appropriate for uncommon legal reasons." A person can change their citizenship from Canadian or American to another country but retain their citizenship to their tribal nation. I do know one family that is split between Jordanian and American citizens but they are enrolled in the Osage Nation. Yuchitown ( talk) 20:42, 14 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
Their Native national identity doesn't fall off the second they travel internationally. It does get confusing quickly, but Indigenous nations have international rights under the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.According to that article, when travelling internationally their tribal citizenship--legally recognised in the US and Canada--is not recognised under international law. You mentioned somebody in England with Muscogee Nation citizenship; they're not recognised as a Muscogee and British citizen outside of the US and Canada, they're recognised as American and British (assuming they have US citizenship, if not, just British). Same as the Jordanian and American family. The tribal citizenship does not have the same meaning or legal standing, and shouldn't be placed along with or instead of US nationality/citizenship. – 2. O. Boxing 22:44, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
the country to which the subject belongs/
Country of legal citizenship, which I think I'm safe to assume reflects the general understanding (if not the literal definition) of nationality and citizenship. – 2. O. Boxing 12:10, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
the general understandingis. Do RS understand these terms —
the country to which the subject belongs/
Country of legal citizenship— to cover recognised tribes or not? Bondegezou ( talk) 12:19, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
use of either should be avoided when the country to which the subject belongs can be inferred from the country of birth(bolding mine). – 2. O. Boxing 19:46, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
X is a Muscogee Nation surferwouldn't suffice), then they're wrong by the internationally accepted definition. Here comes another Cornish comparison; RS routinely describing somebody as Cornish (as they so often do, even in non-British sources) doesn't mean we put Cornish as their nationality or citizenship, because it's not. It's still British or English. – 2. O. Boxing 14:04, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
In the United States, Native American (or "Indian") tribes are seen as "domestic, dependent, sovereign nations." They have the inherent right to govern within their reservations. They can make laws, establish courts and enjoy immunity from external lawsuits. This doctrine of domestic sovereignty has never been applied to Indigenous peoples in Canada. That said tribal nationality is not internationally recognized anywhere.... that's why no passports. Moxy- 14:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
should be avoided when the country to which the subject belongs can be inferred from the country of birth, then the implication is that the parameters should be used
when the country to which the subject belongscannot
be inferred from the country of birth. Instructions for the citizenship parameter at Template:Infobox person specifically say
Country of legal citizenship, if different from nationality. The current text is fine, and it doesn't support your position. And it's not my definition of the word nation, it's the Declarative theory of statehood's definition. – 2. O. Boxing 04:17, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
Please see Template talk:Infobox person#Template:Age for a proposal regarding {{ age}} whereby, when a date is unknown, it would change from showing a single number to a range of ages. Johnuniq ( talk) 03:53, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Relisted for further input. Cinderella157 ( talk) 11:37, 22 June 2023 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 17 | Archive 18 | Archive 19 |
Since this has been discussed on this page before, I thought this had long been settled, but apparently Edwardx disagrees. Citizens of Canadian First Nations and US federally recognized tribes are dual citizens, typically of Canada and the United States respectively (but not always). The US entered into treaties with tribes as foreign governments. In Worchester v. Georgia (1832) established Native American tribes as so-called " domestic dependent nations", which acknowledges their sovereignty that predates the establishment of the United States. Tribes have negotiated government-to-government relationships with the United States in the era of self-determination. [1]. Many people, including Wikipedia editors, mistakenly believe US federally recognized tribes are ethnic groups; [2] however, they are political entities. For example, the single tribe, Confederated Tribes of Siletz Indians, includes 27 different ethnic groups, while conversely the Pomo people are a single ethnic group, split across 21 different federally recognized tribes. As a citizen of a tribe and of the United States, I have treaty rights not accessible by non-tribal citizens and I have to abide by the laws of my tribal government and can seek redress in my tribal court system. Citizenship to both nation-state and a Native American tribe cannot quickly be inferred from place of birth. Yuchitown ( talk) 01:31, 13 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
Unless relevant to notability, Native American should not be in the first sentence of a BLP per MOS:CONTEXTBIO. I'm opposed to having "Muscogee (Creek) Nation" as a nationality [3]/citizenship in the infobox. From what I'm reading, this citizenship thing is only recognised domestically (Canada too? Same thing to me). So chaps can't come to jolly ol' England on a Muscogee passport, they'll be using their universally recognised US passport. For me, this would be like having "Cornish, British" in the infobox. – 2. O. Boxing 10:23, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
X is a Native American tiddlywinks world champion, the ethnicity would have to be relevant to their notability, not identity.The way you and others at WP:IPNA are editing is simply wrong. Rebecca Belmore should be listed as Canadian; Lac Seul First Nation is not a nationality and it shouldn't be in the citizenship parameter per Template:Infobox person,
Country of legal citizenship, if different from nationality(she should also be described as
Canadianin the lead per MOS:CONTEXTBIO). Same with Charles Curtis; Kaw Nation is not a nationality. I don't think the tribal citizenships should be mentioned in the lead at all unless it's somehow relevant to the person's notability (as can be argued for Charles Curtis), but that would be a different discussion. – 2. O. Boxing 21:28, 13 March 2023 (UTC)
X is a Native American bobsleigh Kingwould be in reference to ethnicity, not nationality. If you want to say it's not ethnicity, but "identity", then fine. But it's still not a nationality and should not be in the first sentence per CONTEXTBIO. From the first sentence of Nationality,
Nationality is a legal identification of a person in international law, establishing the person as a subject, a national, of a sovereign state. These tribal citizenships do not have recognition in international law and the tribes (regardless of the fact they have the word "nation" in their name), are not nations or sovereign states, by any stretch of the imagination. This has nothing to do with not liking something, but everything to do with following well-established guidelines instead of a WP:LOCALCONSENSUS. – 2. O. Boxing 11:09, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
This declaration is a resolution, meaning it is not a law-bearing document. Indigenous peoples are not considered political nation-states and do not have access to international law protection through the international court of justice.So that would mean the nation state is still US under international law, and by extension, their nationality/citizenship is American. To me, including tribal citizenship implies it has the same recognition in an internationally-recognised legal sense, that being,
a subject, a national, of a sovereign state(country). I think the current wording of INFONAT accurately reflects the general understanding of nationality/citizenship,
the country to which the subject belongs. – 2. O. Boxing 18:46, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
Again, "Native Americans" and "Indigenous peoples" are different legal concepts, but the current wording on MOS:INFONAT already covers what I was trying to purpose, "When needed (e.g. due to change of nationality after birth, dual 'citizenship', or other unusual scenarios), use |nationality= unless |citizenship= is more appropriate for uncommon legal reasons." A person can change their citizenship from Canadian or American to another country but retain their citizenship to their tribal nation. I do know one family that is split between Jordanian and American citizens but they are enrolled in the Osage Nation. Yuchitown ( talk) 20:42, 14 March 2023 (UTC)Yuchitown
Their Native national identity doesn't fall off the second they travel internationally. It does get confusing quickly, but Indigenous nations have international rights under the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples.According to that article, when travelling internationally their tribal citizenship--legally recognised in the US and Canada--is not recognised under international law. You mentioned somebody in England with Muscogee Nation citizenship; they're not recognised as a Muscogee and British citizen outside of the US and Canada, they're recognised as American and British (assuming they have US citizenship, if not, just British). Same as the Jordanian and American family. The tribal citizenship does not have the same meaning or legal standing, and shouldn't be placed along with or instead of US nationality/citizenship. – 2. O. Boxing 22:44, 14 March 2023 (UTC)
the country to which the subject belongs/
Country of legal citizenship, which I think I'm safe to assume reflects the general understanding (if not the literal definition) of nationality and citizenship. – 2. O. Boxing 12:10, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
the general understandingis. Do RS understand these terms —
the country to which the subject belongs/
Country of legal citizenship— to cover recognised tribes or not? Bondegezou ( talk) 12:19, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
use of either should be avoided when the country to which the subject belongs can be inferred from the country of birth(bolding mine). – 2. O. Boxing 19:46, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
X is a Muscogee Nation surferwouldn't suffice), then they're wrong by the internationally accepted definition. Here comes another Cornish comparison; RS routinely describing somebody as Cornish (as they so often do, even in non-British sources) doesn't mean we put Cornish as their nationality or citizenship, because it's not. It's still British or English. – 2. O. Boxing 14:04, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
In the United States, Native American (or "Indian") tribes are seen as "domestic, dependent, sovereign nations." They have the inherent right to govern within their reservations. They can make laws, establish courts and enjoy immunity from external lawsuits. This doctrine of domestic sovereignty has never been applied to Indigenous peoples in Canada. That said tribal nationality is not internationally recognized anywhere.... that's why no passports. Moxy- 14:00, 18 March 2023 (UTC)
should be avoided when the country to which the subject belongs can be inferred from the country of birth, then the implication is that the parameters should be used
when the country to which the subject belongscannot
be inferred from the country of birth. Instructions for the citizenship parameter at Template:Infobox person specifically say
Country of legal citizenship, if different from nationality. The current text is fine, and it doesn't support your position. And it's not my definition of the word nation, it's the Declarative theory of statehood's definition. – 2. O. Boxing 04:17, 19 March 2023 (UTC)
Please see Template talk:Infobox person#Template:Age for a proposal regarding {{ age}} whereby, when a date is unknown, it would change from showing a single number to a range of ages. Johnuniq ( talk) 03:53, 9 June 2023 (UTC)
Relisted for further input. Cinderella157 ( talk) 11:37, 22 June 2023 (UTC)