This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 75 | Archive 76 | Archive 77 | Archive 78 | Archive 79 | Archive 80 | → | Archive 85 |
Please raise unresolved issues here. I know that SMcCandlish will want to present further arguments for dots after imperial units. Question marks over some of the templates (dates of birth and death). I haven't yet inserted anything about four by four, etc (dimensions vs. mathematical operations). Tony 01:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know where/how to doublecheck on this:
[[February 17]], [[1958]]
(US editors) or [[17 February]] [[1958]]
(others) will be rendered as either February 17, 1958 or 17 February 1958, according to a registered user's set preferences.Once I came across a discussion that the comma is never needed, because the auto formatting inserts it automatically. I don't know where to doublecheck that, but it fits with my experience, whether logged in or out (user preferences). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 15:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
This stuff's been changing so much I'm not sure if this is even in there in any form. I think it should be specified that when a dash is a stand-in for "to" or "versus", as in "McDougal lost to Yamamoto, 3-12", it is a hyphen (or what some call a "hypen-minus" for some reason), in contradistinction to the en-dash used in "fl. 205–162 BCE", where is stands for "through" or "up to". En-dashes should emphatically not be used for sports statistics and the like, or the result will be misleading in many cases, implying a range rather than a 1:1 (or 1-1, but not 1–1 :-) comparison. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 18:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
While we wait for a server-side update that makes date auto-formatting and date linking independent, I've put together a script that will separate date links from the rest and allow you to specify your own style for them. With this script, " January 1, 2008" and " 100 AD" [for example–ed.] will render as black text in articles, or any other format you can apply with CSS.
See User talk:Outriggr/outdated.js for instructions. – Outriggr § 08:00, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm concerned that there are too many large changes going on at the moment without sufficient discussion. The page may have needed some tidying up, but this is more like a complete rewrite. I can't keep up with everything that's been done, and I'm convinced that changes in meaning have been introduced without being properly discussed here first. Does anyone else share my concern, or am I just not putting in enough work to follow it? Stephen Turner ( Talk) 09:13, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I've posted a reply on Stephen's talk page. Tony 11:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
The WikiMedia software formats full dates, and days and months, according to the date preferences chosen by registered users. This function is activated by inserting double square-brackets, as for linking;...
Would you tolerate this opening, until the functionality is fixed?
Full dates, and days and months, are normally autoformatted, by inserting double square-brackets, as for linking. This instructs the WikiMedia software to format the item according to the date preferences chosen by registered users.
Tony 06:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
PS List of all of the substantive changes? Phew, you're right, I'm nearly burnt out from the process. I'll try.
Viewing this from a European stand point makes the argument for only linking full dates look silly, if the policy is mandatory linking of full day/month/year dates but not partial (day/month) dates then that could lead to European users who have bothered to set their date preferences being confronted with articles where all the linked full dates are in their chosen format but partials are in the format they were entered eg On the 13 October 1980 the debate started and it finished on October 15. I gather from other discussions on this page that there is/was a request for alterations so that the Wiki software would format but not link dates. Until that happens the MoS for dates should either state that all dates, both partial and full, should be linked or it should state that the same line for English/American English in articles should be followed i.e British date format for British articles and American format for American. As an average user I just want a clear indication about what the accepted format is. - X201 09:33, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I apologise, I was out of order in threatening to revert. Stephen Turner ( Talk) 20:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Concerning WP:MOSDATE#Autoformatting and linking - is the "2007-07-31" format no longer valid anymore? How come it doesn't include an example of that, while the rest of the MOS uses that format as examples of correct format? Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 14:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm adding this in hope it might start a productive discussion -- or at least not be ignored, as much of what I write seems to be -- but after the MoS reworked & all who have contributed are happy with it, how does it get implemented?
If we allow the usual kinds of people to make these changes -- with or without bot help -- there will be an uproar. If you forgot the AD/CE wars, then have a peek at the battling over "Fair use images" war -- letting the MoS become a "license to edit without fear & win conflicts" will only serve to embitter many long-term productive Wikipedians & drive many other productive ones away. Yet if it is not somehow implemented, is there any purpose to all of this work?
There must be some kind of soft, gradual process to implement this MoS that doesn't unnecessarily ruffle feathers. Education is one method: writing a regular column to the Signpost would be one way to do this. Engaging people is another: perhaps asking on Talk pages or at WikiProjects if the proposed changes could be made. This runs the risk that the more people who know about this work, the more likely much of what has been hammered out will go back to the furnace & a new consensus made.
But some form of a gradual, soft strategy should be adopted, otherwise I suspect that there will be months of even more hostility than usual on Wikipedia. -- llywrch 21:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
See Talk:Old Style and New Style dates#Two different interpretations -- Philip Baird Shearer 23:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I've copied over much of Sections 1–6. In the process, I realised that the stupidly named "Long short big small" at MOS-central belongs within the summary, and here (see vagueness), as does some of MOS-central's "Scientific style". All that remains of the old Scientific Style section at central is a short section on chemistry at the bottom of central.
I'm now adding an invisible note at the top of MOSNUM about the need to coordinate changes with MOS. In the next week, I'll change as many surface details as possible in the examples here, so that readers are forced to process the same guidelines anew; that will be good for both their understanding and the separate identity of this submanual. Tony 01:46, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
The Autoformatting and linking section states how linking works and what it is for, it states what you should not link but it doesn't explicitly state that you should either link every date on a page or that you should only link certain dates. I've read through the discussion archives and they have left me non-the-wiser with some users saying link everything and some complaining about over linking. What is the MoS standpoint on linking dates? - X201 18:19, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I've replied in the "Too many large changes?" thread, but to clear a few things up...
I meant autoformating.
I was referring to both full (day+month+year) dates as well as partial (day+month) dates but I failed to explain that my main concern was where partial and full dates appear in the same sentence, with full dates linked/autoformatted but partial dates not linked/formatted. -
X201 09:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The following long standing material was removed from the article. This perspective was based on several long and acrimonious discussions and at least one RFA, and many editors have strong opinions on the use of both systems. I have already noted some recent confusion on changing dating systems on some articles. With this permanently removed, I would expect the issue to return with a vengeance. Opinions on replacing this in the policy or clarifying the policy in another manner? Best wishes. WBardwin 19:46, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe the default position is that if there is any conflict over usage of a term, spelling, etc it automatically goes back to the earliest non-stub. Unless there is a good reason, such as use of American English in a British article. John Smith's 21:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
This was not included because it applies generically in WP articles where a valid choice is first made. MOS-central says this. Tony 00:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have a problem with rewording the section on BC/AD and BCE/CE to this:
I took out the superfluous part about avoiding the Christian associations of BC/AD. All terms are linked within the section if an editor needs to know more about what the terms mean. I included the inappropriate to change from one style to the other...part because without that clause, an editor with a personal agenda WILL go through and start changing the era style in as many articles as they can. I changed the Centuries and milliennia part to include both methods; instead of just CE/BCE. I also included a note to pick one method or the other, but not both.
As it is written now, it tends to encourage writers to use CE/BCE and does not prohibit the changing from one method to another for personal/unclear reasons. Therefore, I tried to reword it as to be as neutral as possible and making it clear that the MOSNUM/MOS does not favor one over the other. — MJCdetroit 16:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry that I was unaware and did not participate in earlier discussions. I am particularly missing two things from the live version. As noted above, a statement discouraging changing between era notations should be restored. Also, I miss the part that says Normally you should use plain numbers for years in the Anno Domini/ Common Era, but when events span the start of the Anno Domini/ Common Era, use AD or CE for the date at the end of the range.- Andrew c [talk] 18:08, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Problems: (1) "When either of the two styles are acceptable it is inappropriate for a Wikipedia editor to change from one style to another unless there is some substantial reason for the change." As I said above, MOS clearly states in its first lead paragraph the very same thing, so that specific options do not need to cover this principle. To do so casts doubt on the global application of the principle. It should be removed.
(2) The same applies to this: "Note: Writers should choose one system or the other, but not both. It is shown in this explanation with both to express that the MOS does not favor one method over the other." And let's not tell them to "note" this: they should note everything in MOS. The last sentence needs to be reworded. Similarly, someone has inserted "Remember that in ..." in MOS-central's mirror points concerning "Centuries and milliennia" (did I misspell it?). Tony 09:34, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I draw your attention to another statement in the lead; this embodies two further principles that should not be restated for specific points: "An overriding principle is that style and formatting should be applied consistently throughout an article, unless there is a good reason to do otherwise, except in direct quotations, where the original text is generally preserved." Tony 05:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Under Longer periods, the sentence "Either CE and BCE or AD and BC can be used—spaced, undotted and upper-case—to specify the Gregorian era." should not state Gregorian because Julian dates are preferred before 15 October 1582. "Gregorian" should be deleted, leaving "to specify the era." — Joe Kress 05:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
In the discussion of AD/BC, BCE/CE, and, in particular, c., we need to clarify that they are not italicised (except where the whole date is italicised). The examples, because they are examples, are usually in italic. I've just had a minor edit war over "c." ( Kirkstall Abbey) in which the other editor says "Checked MOSNUM - italicised c. appears acceptable. In fact, irrespective of Wikipedia, it is proper to italicise any term borrowed from another language or any abbreviation derived from such a term". PamD 23:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
MOSNUM says MYA, but the article is mya (unit); I've always thought it was mya. Which is it? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 23:14, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
This says Ma is not SI but is in common use. Like DragonsFlight, to me Ma and Ga or ka is totally standard in geologic usage and is increasingly common in more popular literature, when the phrase "million years ago" is not written out. I have felt (with no hard data) that "mya" was something of a Wikipedian construct. Cheers Geologyguy 01:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Do any of you, then, have an opinion about what our Manual of Style should say? Do we say no MYA? Either Ma or mya? Or do we stay silent? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:33, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
In articles on prehistoric topics, BP (before present) and MYA (million years ago) are spelled out on first occurrence.
As long as a standard form of abbreviation is used consistently in an article, and it is spelled out on first occurrence, I can't see the problem in being more inclusive. The current guideline, in any case, doesn't say that BP and MYA are the only forms permissable. So why not this simple addition of three words (which I've italicised here for clarity)?
In articles on prehistoric topics, abbreviations such as mya (million years ago), Ma (Mega annum) and BP (before present) and are spelled out on first occurrence.
Tony 05:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
In articles on prehistoric topics, abbreviations such as Ma and mya (million years ago) and Ga (billion years ago) are spelled out on first occurrence.
Tony 09:31, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I think the proposed revision covers all examples, while removing the incorrect MYA. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 12:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I've been bold and changed the autoformatting phrase from the current wording, which clearly had little support, to the wording that appears above (which did receive support from SMcCandlish, and is, is suspect, much closer to what Stephen et al. are comfortable with). Can we please continue discussion of this here, rather than threaten reverts? I'm keen that we keep the current text and work to address concerns one-by-one. Stephen has raised a problem with the ISO point. Let's gain consensus here. I've implemented the suggested changes to the "prehistoric abbreviations" point.
Another issue is that Crissov is unhappy with the amount of detail that has been transferred across to MOS. (See talk page there.) There's no reason that we can't negotiate the removal of a few points from that text, while retaining them here. I have a few in mind. Tony 00:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Tony 01:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I propose changing this:
to this:
The reasoning I hope is obviously, but to spell it out anyway: Abbreviation like the latter two examples is simply sloppy and unencyclopedic. Also, there is no reason to permit leaving off the leading apostrophe in the rare cases that '60s is appropriate; "60s" is an age range, not a date range. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the proposal, as amended. Using two digits for years, instead of four, cost the world many billions of dollars (that's 1,000,000,000s) in software corrections as the '90s wound down and we approached 2000. Oops, I mean the 90s. Oops, oops, I mean the 1990s. ;-) Chris the speller 01:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
This document is misusing italics rather massively. Italics are a form of emphasis. Example text should be given in "quotes", rather than emphasized. Aside from simply being weird style, it makes it very difficult to actually emphasize anything without going bold (which is generally too heavy-handed), since everything italicized for emphasis just looks like more example text. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:28, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 75 | Archive 76 | Archive 77 | Archive 78 | Archive 79 | Archive 80 | → | Archive 85 |
Please raise unresolved issues here. I know that SMcCandlish will want to present further arguments for dots after imperial units. Question marks over some of the templates (dates of birth and death). I haven't yet inserted anything about four by four, etc (dimensions vs. mathematical operations). Tony 01:57, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone know where/how to doublecheck on this:
[[February 17]], [[1958]]
(US editors) or [[17 February]] [[1958]]
(others) will be rendered as either February 17, 1958 or 17 February 1958, according to a registered user's set preferences.Once I came across a discussion that the comma is never needed, because the auto formatting inserts it automatically. I don't know where to doublecheck that, but it fits with my experience, whether logged in or out (user preferences). SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 15:19, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
This stuff's been changing so much I'm not sure if this is even in there in any form. I think it should be specified that when a dash is a stand-in for "to" or "versus", as in "McDougal lost to Yamamoto, 3-12", it is a hyphen (or what some call a "hypen-minus" for some reason), in contradistinction to the en-dash used in "fl. 205–162 BCE", where is stands for "through" or "up to". En-dashes should emphatically not be used for sports statistics and the like, or the result will be misleading in many cases, implying a range rather than a 1:1 (or 1-1, but not 1–1 :-) comparison. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 18:42, 30 July 2007 (UTC)
While we wait for a server-side update that makes date auto-formatting and date linking independent, I've put together a script that will separate date links from the rest and allow you to specify your own style for them. With this script, " January 1, 2008" and " 100 AD" [for example–ed.] will render as black text in articles, or any other format you can apply with CSS.
See User talk:Outriggr/outdated.js for instructions. – Outriggr § 08:00, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm concerned that there are too many large changes going on at the moment without sufficient discussion. The page may have needed some tidying up, but this is more like a complete rewrite. I can't keep up with everything that's been done, and I'm convinced that changes in meaning have been introduced without being properly discussed here first. Does anyone else share my concern, or am I just not putting in enough work to follow it? Stephen Turner ( Talk) 09:13, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I've posted a reply on Stephen's talk page. Tony 11:41, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
The WikiMedia software formats full dates, and days and months, according to the date preferences chosen by registered users. This function is activated by inserting double square-brackets, as for linking;...
Would you tolerate this opening, until the functionality is fixed?
Full dates, and days and months, are normally autoformatted, by inserting double square-brackets, as for linking. This instructs the WikiMedia software to format the item according to the date preferences chosen by registered users.
Tony 06:19, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
PS List of all of the substantive changes? Phew, you're right, I'm nearly burnt out from the process. I'll try.
Viewing this from a European stand point makes the argument for only linking full dates look silly, if the policy is mandatory linking of full day/month/year dates but not partial (day/month) dates then that could lead to European users who have bothered to set their date preferences being confronted with articles where all the linked full dates are in their chosen format but partials are in the format they were entered eg On the 13 October 1980 the debate started and it finished on October 15. I gather from other discussions on this page that there is/was a request for alterations so that the Wiki software would format but not link dates. Until that happens the MoS for dates should either state that all dates, both partial and full, should be linked or it should state that the same line for English/American English in articles should be followed i.e British date format for British articles and American format for American. As an average user I just want a clear indication about what the accepted format is. - X201 09:33, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I apologise, I was out of order in threatening to revert. Stephen Turner ( Talk) 20:01, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Concerning WP:MOSDATE#Autoformatting and linking - is the "2007-07-31" format no longer valid anymore? How come it doesn't include an example of that, while the rest of the MOS uses that format as examples of correct format? Hong Qi Gong ( Talk - Contribs) 14:37, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I'm adding this in hope it might start a productive discussion -- or at least not be ignored, as much of what I write seems to be -- but after the MoS reworked & all who have contributed are happy with it, how does it get implemented?
If we allow the usual kinds of people to make these changes -- with or without bot help -- there will be an uproar. If you forgot the AD/CE wars, then have a peek at the battling over "Fair use images" war -- letting the MoS become a "license to edit without fear & win conflicts" will only serve to embitter many long-term productive Wikipedians & drive many other productive ones away. Yet if it is not somehow implemented, is there any purpose to all of this work?
There must be some kind of soft, gradual process to implement this MoS that doesn't unnecessarily ruffle feathers. Education is one method: writing a regular column to the Signpost would be one way to do this. Engaging people is another: perhaps asking on Talk pages or at WikiProjects if the proposed changes could be made. This runs the risk that the more people who know about this work, the more likely much of what has been hammered out will go back to the furnace & a new consensus made.
But some form of a gradual, soft strategy should be adopted, otherwise I suspect that there will be months of even more hostility than usual on Wikipedia. -- llywrch 21:58, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
See Talk:Old Style and New Style dates#Two different interpretations -- Philip Baird Shearer 23:59, 31 July 2007 (UTC)
I've copied over much of Sections 1–6. In the process, I realised that the stupidly named "Long short big small" at MOS-central belongs within the summary, and here (see vagueness), as does some of MOS-central's "Scientific style". All that remains of the old Scientific Style section at central is a short section on chemistry at the bottom of central.
I'm now adding an invisible note at the top of MOSNUM about the need to coordinate changes with MOS. In the next week, I'll change as many surface details as possible in the examples here, so that readers are forced to process the same guidelines anew; that will be good for both their understanding and the separate identity of this submanual. Tony 01:46, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
The Autoformatting and linking section states how linking works and what it is for, it states what you should not link but it doesn't explicitly state that you should either link every date on a page or that you should only link certain dates. I've read through the discussion archives and they have left me non-the-wiser with some users saying link everything and some complaining about over linking. What is the MoS standpoint on linking dates? - X201 18:19, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I've replied in the "Too many large changes?" thread, but to clear a few things up...
I meant autoformating.
I was referring to both full (day+month+year) dates as well as partial (day+month) dates but I failed to explain that my main concern was where partial and full dates appear in the same sentence, with full dates linked/autoformatted but partial dates not linked/formatted. -
X201 09:41, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
The following long standing material was removed from the article. This perspective was based on several long and acrimonious discussions and at least one RFA, and many editors have strong opinions on the use of both systems. I have already noted some recent confusion on changing dating systems on some articles. With this permanently removed, I would expect the issue to return with a vengeance. Opinions on replacing this in the policy or clarifying the policy in another manner? Best wishes. WBardwin 19:46, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
I believe the default position is that if there is any conflict over usage of a term, spelling, etc it automatically goes back to the earliest non-stub. Unless there is a good reason, such as use of American English in a British article. John Smith's 21:44, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
This was not included because it applies generically in WP articles where a valid choice is first made. MOS-central says this. Tony 00:57, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Does anyone have a problem with rewording the section on BC/AD and BCE/CE to this:
I took out the superfluous part about avoiding the Christian associations of BC/AD. All terms are linked within the section if an editor needs to know more about what the terms mean. I included the inappropriate to change from one style to the other...part because without that clause, an editor with a personal agenda WILL go through and start changing the era style in as many articles as they can. I changed the Centuries and milliennia part to include both methods; instead of just CE/BCE. I also included a note to pick one method or the other, but not both.
As it is written now, it tends to encourage writers to use CE/BCE and does not prohibit the changing from one method to another for personal/unclear reasons. Therefore, I tried to reword it as to be as neutral as possible and making it clear that the MOSNUM/MOS does not favor one over the other. — MJCdetroit 16:59, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Sorry that I was unaware and did not participate in earlier discussions. I am particularly missing two things from the live version. As noted above, a statement discouraging changing between era notations should be restored. Also, I miss the part that says Normally you should use plain numbers for years in the Anno Domini/ Common Era, but when events span the start of the Anno Domini/ Common Era, use AD or CE for the date at the end of the range.- Andrew c [talk] 18:08, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Problems: (1) "When either of the two styles are acceptable it is inappropriate for a Wikipedia editor to change from one style to another unless there is some substantial reason for the change." As I said above, MOS clearly states in its first lead paragraph the very same thing, so that specific options do not need to cover this principle. To do so casts doubt on the global application of the principle. It should be removed.
(2) The same applies to this: "Note: Writers should choose one system or the other, but not both. It is shown in this explanation with both to express that the MOS does not favor one method over the other." And let's not tell them to "note" this: they should note everything in MOS. The last sentence needs to be reworded. Similarly, someone has inserted "Remember that in ..." in MOS-central's mirror points concerning "Centuries and milliennia" (did I misspell it?). Tony 09:34, 10 August 2007 (UTC)
I draw your attention to another statement in the lead; this embodies two further principles that should not be restated for specific points: "An overriding principle is that style and formatting should be applied consistently throughout an article, unless there is a good reason to do otherwise, except in direct quotations, where the original text is generally preserved." Tony 05:25, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Under Longer periods, the sentence "Either CE and BCE or AD and BC can be used—spaced, undotted and upper-case—to specify the Gregorian era." should not state Gregorian because Julian dates are preferred before 15 October 1582. "Gregorian" should be deleted, leaving "to specify the era." — Joe Kress 05:02, 17 August 2007 (UTC)
In the discussion of AD/BC, BCE/CE, and, in particular, c., we need to clarify that they are not italicised (except where the whole date is italicised). The examples, because they are examples, are usually in italic. I've just had a minor edit war over "c." ( Kirkstall Abbey) in which the other editor says "Checked MOSNUM - italicised c. appears acceptable. In fact, irrespective of Wikipedia, it is proper to italicise any term borrowed from another language or any abbreviation derived from such a term". PamD 23:19, 27 August 2007 (UTC)
MOSNUM says MYA, but the article is mya (unit); I've always thought it was mya. Which is it? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 23:14, 1 August 2007 (UTC)
This says Ma is not SI but is in common use. Like DragonsFlight, to me Ma and Ga or ka is totally standard in geologic usage and is increasingly common in more popular literature, when the phrase "million years ago" is not written out. I have felt (with no hard data) that "mya" was something of a Wikipedian construct. Cheers Geologyguy 01:49, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
Do any of you, then, have an opinion about what our Manual of Style should say? Do we say no MYA? Either Ma or mya? Or do we stay silent? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 02:33, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
In articles on prehistoric topics, BP (before present) and MYA (million years ago) are spelled out on first occurrence.
As long as a standard form of abbreviation is used consistently in an article, and it is spelled out on first occurrence, I can't see the problem in being more inclusive. The current guideline, in any case, doesn't say that BP and MYA are the only forms permissable. So why not this simple addition of three words (which I've italicised here for clarity)?
In articles on prehistoric topics, abbreviations such as mya (million years ago), Ma (Mega annum) and BP (before present) and are spelled out on first occurrence.
Tony 05:27, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
In articles on prehistoric topics, abbreviations such as Ma and mya (million years ago) and Ga (billion years ago) are spelled out on first occurrence.
Tony 09:31, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I think the proposed revision covers all examples, while removing the incorrect MYA. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 12:43, 2 August 2007 (UTC)
I've been bold and changed the autoformatting phrase from the current wording, which clearly had little support, to the wording that appears above (which did receive support from SMcCandlish, and is, is suspect, much closer to what Stephen et al. are comfortable with). Can we please continue discussion of this here, rather than threaten reverts? I'm keen that we keep the current text and work to address concerns one-by-one. Stephen has raised a problem with the ISO point. Let's gain consensus here. I've implemented the suggested changes to the "prehistoric abbreviations" point.
Another issue is that Crissov is unhappy with the amount of detail that has been transferred across to MOS. (See talk page there.) There's no reason that we can't negotiate the removal of a few points from that text, while retaining them here. I have a few in mind. Tony 00:47, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Tony 01:05, 4 August 2007 (UTC)
I propose changing this:
to this:
The reasoning I hope is obviously, but to spell it out anyway: Abbreviation like the latter two examples is simply sloppy and unencyclopedic. Also, there is no reason to permit leaving off the leading apostrophe in the rare cases that '60s is appropriate; "60s" is an age range, not a date range. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:25, 5 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with the proposal, as amended. Using two digits for years, instead of four, cost the world many billions of dollars (that's 1,000,000,000s) in software corrections as the '90s wound down and we approached 2000. Oops, I mean the 90s. Oops, oops, I mean the 1990s. ;-) Chris the speller 01:03, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
This document is misusing italics rather massively. Italics are a form of emphasis. Example text should be given in "quotes", rather than emphasized. Aside from simply being weird style, it makes it very difficult to actually emphasize anything without going bold (which is generally too heavy-handed), since everything italicized for emphasis just looks like more example text. — SMcCandlish [ talk] [ cont] ‹(-¿-)› 19:28, 5 August 2007 (UTC)