![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 50 | Archive 51 | Archive 52 | Archive 53 | Archive 54 | Archive 55 | → | Archive 60 |
Quote:
12-hour clock | Not | 24-hour clock | Not |
---|---|---|---|
2 p.m. | 2pm | 14:00 | 14.00 |
2:34 p.m. | 2.34 PM | 14:34 | 1434 |
12:04:38 a.m. | 12.04 38″ A.M. | 00:04:38 or 0:04:38 | |
noon | 12 noon | 12:00 |
The suggestions in "time" section seems to be weird because:
Mistake: p.m, pm & PM are definitely acceptable.
Evidence:
Mistake: noon or 12 noon are definitely acceptable.
Evidence:
Mistake: For 24-hour, discretion may be used to determine if the hour has a leading zero.
It's strange that the article says that. There is no discretion as to whether a leading zero is used. It is more to do as a standard or a matter of taste. If one follows formal standard strictly, 24-hour usually use leading numbers. This includes major time sites like NIST.gov, greenwichmeantime.com, and so on.
A better explanation on Noon and Midnight
AM and PM - What is Noon and Midnight?
AM and PM start immediately after Midnight and Noon (Midday) respectively. This means that 00:00 AM or 00:00 PM (or 12:00 AM and 12:00 PM) have no meaning. Every day starts precisely at midnight and AM starts immediately after that point in time e.g. 00:00:01 AM (see also leap seconds) To avoid confusion timetables, when scheduling around midnight, prefer to use either 23:59 or 00:01 to avoid confusion as to which day is being referred to.
It is after Noon that PM starts e.g. 00:00:01 PM (12:00:01) -- greenwichmeantime.com
I'm going to update the above (to include the instructions in 12-hour clock and 24-hour clock, and some major time sites) if no one oppose it. -- Wai Wai ( talk) 15:11, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I have some doubt that AM and PM are preferred in the United States. And "12 noon" is redundant. It seems like such changes amount to having no style, which can be done more concisely, if that is desired. Maurreen 17:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
But it is not the way it should work:
Also bear in mind I am not disagreeing with WP having a style, but there is something between "no style" and "one absolute style". I'm disagreeing with "one absolute style" (when other accpetable or standard styles exist) or against the Wikipedian philosophies. It is not necessary to rule out one absolute style only and ask all others to follow. Just like this style guide will state people can choose between "AD/BC" and "CE/BCE", and so on. There are quite many situations where the style ask people to choose either one and keep consistency. Why do you think only "one absolute style" must exist everywhere? Why do you think you must pick one only and ask all others to follow?
I realise you would like to keep things consistent, but accepting either one is not the only way to keep consistency. Allowing both acceptable standard and kindly ask others to maintain interally consistency also works; just like you set rules to allow using arabic numbers in some cases, using numbers in words in other cases. Otherwise why don't you just allow one format only in all cases?-- Wai Wai ( talk) 10:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I've just reverted all Wai Wai's changes made in the last 12 hours or so. Changes this extensive must be discussed on the talk page first and reach consensus here. I'm sure some of them are fine, but others are controversial, and some of them were badly phrased too. Stephen Turner ( Talk) 15:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Dear
Stephen Turner:
The word "policy" I use is not strict, that is I simply refer to some wikipedia standards or principles or philosophies. It does not necesarily mean any standalone official policy which is being voilated (eg "three revert rule" policy). Anyway, here's the extract of what reverting is deemed appropriate:
I realise my edits may not be perfect, but that's the process of wikipedia. I post a preliminary edit. People will try to edit and improve it. We don't need to make sure it is 100% acceptable and perfect before it can be put. Consensus will be reached during the edit process.
I would revert my changes first (so others have chances to improve it). According to these policies or principles, if you feel my edits are very devastating or near vandalism, feel free to revert my edits (hopefully with reasons provided, so I know how to improve it, instead of starting at ground level again).
--
Wai Wai (
talk)
06:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Some people or editors may find this iformation useful. I'm a member of countering systemic bias. Simply speaking, it is a bia due to the nature of the system (wikipedia). Most editors here are coming from United States or in countries where English is their mother language. Most of the information/comments are biased towards the western. Opinions or information from Africa, Asia and South America are missing.
What I am trying to do is:
--
Wai Wai (
talk)
10:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
As regards the comment of "no changes to the manual should be made until there is a concensus reached. Every change has to be discussed in the discussion page first."
It's clearly wrong unfortunately. Please read the following:
Major philosophy (official policies):
Specific guidelines:
Explanation (Note: The following is just a rough guideline. It is never intended to be complete or extensive):
Things which may need discussions before editing:
Things which may not need discussions before editing:
In the forthcoming days, I will try to explain some of the reasons why I make the changes. Nevertheless it is very time consuming and it is impractical to explain every single change, including copyedit and minor ones. Priority has to be decided. If anyone has any doubts about any of my changes, please specify which one and what your doubts are, so I will know which are in higher priority and focus my explanations on them. Consensus and agreement could be made in this regard.
Please give me a few days to respond. Best regards.
--
Wai Wai (
talk)
10:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Wai Wai -- Do you not see that you are going against consensus? Both the established style and repeated requests for you to first discuss your changes and get agreement before making them? Do you not see how little support your changes have among other editors? Maurreen 07:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I realise there are some problems which we have to work on. However this alone does not justify a "revert" as far as the policies are concerned. The polciy has stated a "revert" should be dealt primiarily with vandalism. Unless you think all of the updates are vandalism or near vandalism, I don't see why it justifies a "revert". Policy has also stated we should work on the problems. Improve/Modify the articles, rather than deleting/reverting it.
After all, I am willing to work on the problems or consensus issues. Please specify the problems and what your doubts are, so I will know which are in higher priority and focus my explanations on them. I will try to explain some of the reasons why I make the changes. Consensus and agreement could be made in this regard. Please give me some time to fix the problems before you make your decision.-- Wai Wai ( talk) 09:22, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I have never heard of the above rules. Would you mind tellingme where it state so, including it is the updater's burden to prove there is the general agreement before an update is possible? I have stated it already: Feel free to update this page as needed, but please use the discussion page to propose major changes. -- guideline of updating style pages.-- Wai Wai ( talk) 09:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Maurreen 10:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
The point is not all are major changes. It is wrong to revert COMPLETELY because there are some problems in the update. Please read the following:
Major philosophy (official policies):
Specific guidelines:
If every change needed to be done through discussion, why the page is not locked up? What's more, reverting should be used primarily for fighting vandalism, as stated in the help:reverting page.
When someone makes an edit you consider biased or inaccurate or problematic, improve the edit, rather than reverting it as stated in Wikipedia:Resolving disputes.
Unless what one writes is near to completely non-sense, or useless or rubbish. Revert is not something which you should be taken lightly. The bold policy does not apply. We are bold to create/improve it, not bold to destory/delete it.
However what people doing are reverting all changes but there are only some areas problematic.
Spacng should be optional since I find both formatting style (ie spacing or non-spacing) in different formal writing. For example, my Oxford Intermediate English Dictionary uses non-spacing one, as in "For this recipe you need 500g (five hundred grams) of flour".-- Wai Wai ( talk) 06:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't see the need why we need to force all editors to use one single standard, not to say there are other kinds of problems. People tend to defend by saying "consistency", and "consistency" is always good. Really? However they forget they are making things complex and go in the other way round. Take the case of "numbers in word" (extracted):
Summary:
For number zero to ten, spell out the words.
For number above ten, two situations:
- expressed in two or fewer words, spell out the words.
- otherwise, use arabic numbers.
Fractions alone, spell out the words.
Fractions mixed with whole numbers, use arabic numbers.
Where is the consistency? The rules tell us to uses numbers in words sometimes, uses arabic numbers in other times. Originally the style guide intends to keep things simple and consistent. However when people are working on it, they tend to forget their original goals and deviate from them - making rules complex, splitting hairs, trivial, inconsistency, inconvenience to editors, and so on.
People tend to forget simplicity is the best. If editors were not spending time on trivial style or formatting, much of their time saved could be used to improve the real "contents" of the article. It is what benefit the visitors most.
By the way, it is going to be a very minority consensus if you take the whole community [the world] into account. Only a very few wikipedians are engaged in the discussion.-- Wai Wai ( talk) 07:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Suggestion taken. I'm working too hard on that day. I will try o update bit by bit next time. As to sections, section starts at 2nd level. What I'm usng is just 4th level (the 3rd type of section). There are articles which use 4th level. And I don't see why we must restrict ourselves to using 2 types of sections only (ie 2nd and 3rd level). Anyway, it is just a style issue. If all people don't like it, just undo the section formatting.-- Wai Wai ( talk) 09:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I am sure this has come up before, but I don't see anything on the project page. User:GoDot is insisting on calling the current decade "the 2000s" as in "bank redlining had largely diminished by the mid 2000s" ( Seattle neighborhoods). I find this very confusing: if someone says "the mid-1900s" they mean around 1950, not 1905. But since this is a user with whom I repeatedly find myself disagreeing, and since the MoS doesn't yet address the matter, I'm simply bringing the question here. - Jmabel | Talk 02:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I know it was a loooooooong time ago that we were debating on whether or not a space should be put between the number and the unit of Olympic Event names. The IOC official site does not put space, so one would expect the Wikipedia articles should do the same (e.g. 10km), but according to this overcited page, it was kept according to the WP guidelines (e.g. 10 km).
I recently received a long awaited reply from the IOC in which the Sports Director Kelly Fairweather noted to me that the IOC is "working with the International Federations to define the exact terms to be used for disciplines and events." She stated that the project would be completed by October 2006 and the IOC website after that point would be the place to find the official terminology. Until then, "there is no one approved terminology."
I just thought some others would like to know. → JARED (t) 21:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
As a sidenote, I find both formatting style (ie spacing or non-spacing) in different formal writing. For example, my Oxford Intermediate English Dictionary uses non-spacing one, as in "For this recipe you need 500g (five hundred grams) of flour".
Anyway, I think people are getting hypercorrect. What's the difference between 500g and 500 g? Will people get confused when reading either style? People are wasting too much time on trivial issues, and making things complex, not to say it requires huge efforts and good memories to comply with all these trivial rules.
They tend to forget simplicity is the best. Accept both. Pick either one you like the best. How easy life would be then? After all, standards are all created by humans. No standards must be formal or informal. They are all relative in nature. If time are spent on more important issues, the world would be much better. -- Wai Wai ( talk) 07:09, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
This has probably come up before: Should the Indian numbering system (hazar, lakh, crore, arab...) be used in articles about Indian subjects? Should exponential breaks be done in the Indian system (i.e. 1,00,000 as opposed to 100,000)? Thoughts? -- Samir धर्म 09:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 50 | Archive 51 | Archive 52 | Archive 53 | Archive 54 | Archive 55 | → | Archive 60 |
Quote:
12-hour clock | Not | 24-hour clock | Not |
---|---|---|---|
2 p.m. | 2pm | 14:00 | 14.00 |
2:34 p.m. | 2.34 PM | 14:34 | 1434 |
12:04:38 a.m. | 12.04 38″ A.M. | 00:04:38 or 0:04:38 | |
noon | 12 noon | 12:00 |
The suggestions in "time" section seems to be weird because:
Mistake: p.m, pm & PM are definitely acceptable.
Evidence:
Mistake: noon or 12 noon are definitely acceptable.
Evidence:
Mistake: For 24-hour, discretion may be used to determine if the hour has a leading zero.
It's strange that the article says that. There is no discretion as to whether a leading zero is used. It is more to do as a standard or a matter of taste. If one follows formal standard strictly, 24-hour usually use leading numbers. This includes major time sites like NIST.gov, greenwichmeantime.com, and so on.
A better explanation on Noon and Midnight
AM and PM - What is Noon and Midnight?
AM and PM start immediately after Midnight and Noon (Midday) respectively. This means that 00:00 AM or 00:00 PM (or 12:00 AM and 12:00 PM) have no meaning. Every day starts precisely at midnight and AM starts immediately after that point in time e.g. 00:00:01 AM (see also leap seconds) To avoid confusion timetables, when scheduling around midnight, prefer to use either 23:59 or 00:01 to avoid confusion as to which day is being referred to.
It is after Noon that PM starts e.g. 00:00:01 PM (12:00:01) -- greenwichmeantime.com
I'm going to update the above (to include the instructions in 12-hour clock and 24-hour clock, and some major time sites) if no one oppose it. -- Wai Wai ( talk) 15:11, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
I have some doubt that AM and PM are preferred in the United States. And "12 noon" is redundant. It seems like such changes amount to having no style, which can be done more concisely, if that is desired. Maurreen 17:11, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
But it is not the way it should work:
Also bear in mind I am not disagreeing with WP having a style, but there is something between "no style" and "one absolute style". I'm disagreeing with "one absolute style" (when other accpetable or standard styles exist) or against the Wikipedian philosophies. It is not necessary to rule out one absolute style only and ask all others to follow. Just like this style guide will state people can choose between "AD/BC" and "CE/BCE", and so on. There are quite many situations where the style ask people to choose either one and keep consistency. Why do you think only "one absolute style" must exist everywhere? Why do you think you must pick one only and ask all others to follow?
I realise you would like to keep things consistent, but accepting either one is not the only way to keep consistency. Allowing both acceptable standard and kindly ask others to maintain interally consistency also works; just like you set rules to allow using arabic numbers in some cases, using numbers in words in other cases. Otherwise why don't you just allow one format only in all cases?-- Wai Wai ( talk) 10:08, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I've just reverted all Wai Wai's changes made in the last 12 hours or so. Changes this extensive must be discussed on the talk page first and reach consensus here. I'm sure some of them are fine, but others are controversial, and some of them were badly phrased too. Stephen Turner ( Talk) 15:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)
Dear
Stephen Turner:
The word "policy" I use is not strict, that is I simply refer to some wikipedia standards or principles or philosophies. It does not necesarily mean any standalone official policy which is being voilated (eg "three revert rule" policy). Anyway, here's the extract of what reverting is deemed appropriate:
I realise my edits may not be perfect, but that's the process of wikipedia. I post a preliminary edit. People will try to edit and improve it. We don't need to make sure it is 100% acceptable and perfect before it can be put. Consensus will be reached during the edit process.
I would revert my changes first (so others have chances to improve it). According to these policies or principles, if you feel my edits are very devastating or near vandalism, feel free to revert my edits (hopefully with reasons provided, so I know how to improve it, instead of starting at ground level again).
--
Wai Wai (
talk)
06:03, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Some people or editors may find this iformation useful. I'm a member of countering systemic bias. Simply speaking, it is a bia due to the nature of the system (wikipedia). Most editors here are coming from United States or in countries where English is their mother language. Most of the information/comments are biased towards the western. Opinions or information from Africa, Asia and South America are missing.
What I am trying to do is:
--
Wai Wai (
talk)
10:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
As regards the comment of "no changes to the manual should be made until there is a concensus reached. Every change has to be discussed in the discussion page first."
It's clearly wrong unfortunately. Please read the following:
Major philosophy (official policies):
Specific guidelines:
Explanation (Note: The following is just a rough guideline. It is never intended to be complete or extensive):
Things which may need discussions before editing:
Things which may not need discussions before editing:
In the forthcoming days, I will try to explain some of the reasons why I make the changes. Nevertheless it is very time consuming and it is impractical to explain every single change, including copyedit and minor ones. Priority has to be decided. If anyone has any doubts about any of my changes, please specify which one and what your doubts are, so I will know which are in higher priority and focus my explanations on them. Consensus and agreement could be made in this regard.
Please give me a few days to respond. Best regards.
--
Wai Wai (
talk)
10:07, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
Wai Wai -- Do you not see that you are going against consensus? Both the established style and repeated requests for you to first discuss your changes and get agreement before making them? Do you not see how little support your changes have among other editors? Maurreen 07:17, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I realise there are some problems which we have to work on. However this alone does not justify a "revert" as far as the policies are concerned. The polciy has stated a "revert" should be dealt primiarily with vandalism. Unless you think all of the updates are vandalism or near vandalism, I don't see why it justifies a "revert". Policy has also stated we should work on the problems. Improve/Modify the articles, rather than deleting/reverting it.
After all, I am willing to work on the problems or consensus issues. Please specify the problems and what your doubts are, so I will know which are in higher priority and focus my explanations on them. I will try to explain some of the reasons why I make the changes. Consensus and agreement could be made in this regard. Please give me some time to fix the problems before you make your decision.-- Wai Wai ( talk) 09:22, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I have never heard of the above rules. Would you mind tellingme where it state so, including it is the updater's burden to prove there is the general agreement before an update is possible? I have stated it already: Feel free to update this page as needed, but please use the discussion page to propose major changes. -- guideline of updating style pages.-- Wai Wai ( talk) 09:49, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Maurreen 10:19, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
The point is not all are major changes. It is wrong to revert COMPLETELY because there are some problems in the update. Please read the following:
Major philosophy (official policies):
Specific guidelines:
If every change needed to be done through discussion, why the page is not locked up? What's more, reverting should be used primarily for fighting vandalism, as stated in the help:reverting page.
When someone makes an edit you consider biased or inaccurate or problematic, improve the edit, rather than reverting it as stated in Wikipedia:Resolving disputes.
Unless what one writes is near to completely non-sense, or useless or rubbish. Revert is not something which you should be taken lightly. The bold policy does not apply. We are bold to create/improve it, not bold to destory/delete it.
However what people doing are reverting all changes but there are only some areas problematic.
Spacng should be optional since I find both formatting style (ie spacing or non-spacing) in different formal writing. For example, my Oxford Intermediate English Dictionary uses non-spacing one, as in "For this recipe you need 500g (five hundred grams) of flour".-- Wai Wai ( talk) 06:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I don't see the need why we need to force all editors to use one single standard, not to say there are other kinds of problems. People tend to defend by saying "consistency", and "consistency" is always good. Really? However they forget they are making things complex and go in the other way round. Take the case of "numbers in word" (extracted):
Summary:
For number zero to ten, spell out the words.
For number above ten, two situations:
- expressed in two or fewer words, spell out the words.
- otherwise, use arabic numbers.
Fractions alone, spell out the words.
Fractions mixed with whole numbers, use arabic numbers.
Where is the consistency? The rules tell us to uses numbers in words sometimes, uses arabic numbers in other times. Originally the style guide intends to keep things simple and consistent. However when people are working on it, they tend to forget their original goals and deviate from them - making rules complex, splitting hairs, trivial, inconsistency, inconvenience to editors, and so on.
People tend to forget simplicity is the best. If editors were not spending time on trivial style or formatting, much of their time saved could be used to improve the real "contents" of the article. It is what benefit the visitors most.
By the way, it is going to be a very minority consensus if you take the whole community [the world] into account. Only a very few wikipedians are engaged in the discussion.-- Wai Wai ( talk) 07:31, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
Suggestion taken. I'm working too hard on that day. I will try o update bit by bit next time. As to sections, section starts at 2nd level. What I'm usng is just 4th level (the 3rd type of section). There are articles which use 4th level. And I don't see why we must restrict ourselves to using 2 types of sections only (ie 2nd and 3rd level). Anyway, it is just a style issue. If all people don't like it, just undo the section formatting.-- Wai Wai ( talk) 09:28, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
I am sure this has come up before, but I don't see anything on the project page. User:GoDot is insisting on calling the current decade "the 2000s" as in "bank redlining had largely diminished by the mid 2000s" ( Seattle neighborhoods). I find this very confusing: if someone says "the mid-1900s" they mean around 1950, not 1905. But since this is a user with whom I repeatedly find myself disagreeing, and since the MoS doesn't yet address the matter, I'm simply bringing the question here. - Jmabel | Talk 02:23, 7 August 2006 (UTC)
I know it was a loooooooong time ago that we were debating on whether or not a space should be put between the number and the unit of Olympic Event names. The IOC official site does not put space, so one would expect the Wikipedia articles should do the same (e.g. 10km), but according to this overcited page, it was kept according to the WP guidelines (e.g. 10 km).
I recently received a long awaited reply from the IOC in which the Sports Director Kelly Fairweather noted to me that the IOC is "working with the International Federations to define the exact terms to be used for disciplines and events." She stated that the project would be completed by October 2006 and the IOC website after that point would be the place to find the official terminology. Until then, "there is no one approved terminology."
I just thought some others would like to know. → JARED (t) 21:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)
As a sidenote, I find both formatting style (ie spacing or non-spacing) in different formal writing. For example, my Oxford Intermediate English Dictionary uses non-spacing one, as in "For this recipe you need 500g (five hundred grams) of flour".
Anyway, I think people are getting hypercorrect. What's the difference between 500g and 500 g? Will people get confused when reading either style? People are wasting too much time on trivial issues, and making things complex, not to say it requires huge efforts and good memories to comply with all these trivial rules.
They tend to forget simplicity is the best. Accept both. Pick either one you like the best. How easy life would be then? After all, standards are all created by humans. No standards must be formal or informal. They are all relative in nature. If time are spent on more important issues, the world would be much better. -- Wai Wai ( talk) 07:09, 12 August 2006 (UTC)
This has probably come up before: Should the Indian numbering system (hazar, lakh, crore, arab...) be used in articles about Indian subjects? Should exponential breaks be done in the Indian system (i.e. 1,00,000 as opposed to 100,000)? Thoughts? -- Samir धर्म 09:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)