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Should the MOS (dates and numbers) examples include conversions whenever appropriate. Does the absence of a conversion in an example send readers the message that it would be wrong to include a conversion in the situation illustrated by the example?
In particular, is it appropriate to use the unit "barrel of oil" without a conversion? -- Gerry Ashton ( talk) 20:27, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Note that Wikipedia’s own article on Crude oil production is somewhat mixed on this issue. One section shows a one-time conversion but also features a large chart that is tallied exclusively in barrels. Different editors arrived at different conclusions regarding parenthetical conversions for barrels but all agreed with the notion that the primary unit should be barrel since that is the unit universally used in industry and commerce and is the way current literature deals with it. It was determined that how conversions of barrels are done was nowhere nearly so clearcut and was dependent on exact context. It’s going to be really hard to make progress here if old issues are dredged up over and over. This particular issue was debated and addressed. Why open a can of worms? Greg L ( talk) 20:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm happy to accept consensus where consensus can be shown. I believe you'll find consensus is for rather than against the provision of conversions. Now there are three of us who seem would prefer conversions to be included in the examples, I don't think that that's a big ask. JIMp talk· cont 02:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree with this nuance. JIMp talk· cont 03:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I’ve learned much here on Wikipedia about how some people negotiate and operate. Tbird may protest that I feel betrayed over his vote but just pardon me all over if my worldview is that actions speak louder than words. I’m not at all bitter about this because I half expected it. But fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
Not surprisingly, certain editors here (some of whom were responsible for the “Binary prefix” policy two years ago), don’t agree with the fundamental point of “Follow current literature” and its call for no longer using them. That’s pretty fundamental and this nit picking around the edges simply amounts to harassing maneuvers. It’s clear that Jimp, if his future actions remain consistent with his past, is one of those who is fundamentally opposed to this entire section and has “issues” with it that are highly unlikely to be satisfied with minor tweaking. The principal of “assume good faith” does not require that I suspend common sense. I believe this incessant nagging over some of the guideline’s details amounts to nothing more than that—nagging—and will not result in any more support from the “oppose” crowd.
It is better that we get other admins (or a Bureaucrat) involved here to address Omegatron’s improperly taking sides on an issue in which he had been active by posting the lower {{disputed}} tag here. Hopefully, this will also lead to a ruling on whether “Follow current literature” was also properly adopted. A much greater majority of editors weighed in on “Follow current literature” in good faith to help craft the best possible wording that satisfied diverse—and often divergent—views. In the end, no way could be found to accommodate the wishes of those who fundamentally oppose it—notwithstanding some of my efforts with Thunderbird2.
I could use some advice from Fnagaton and others as to whether not this Wikiquette alert against Omegatron for taking sides in this dispute as an involved administrator (see Improper interference by involved administrator, below) is the best venue. I believe there may be better venues. Greg L ( talk) 14:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
You may recall that I originally had an oil conversion in that paragraph but removed it to make peace on this very issue. As for a Gerry Ashton’s argument that a barrel of oil “is about as unfamiliar a unit as you're likely to find”, I think someone would have had to have spent their entire life in a cave to have not seen actual barrels of oil on the TV; it’s standard “B-roll” footage (0.3 meterage) whenever there is a news piece on crude oil production. Even a standard chemical drum (55 U.S. gallons) is close enough to a 42-gallon oil drum to get the gist across (and chemical drums are terribly ubiquitous on TV and in the movies). In my mind, an argument that readers coming to Wikipedia have no sense of the magnitude of a barrel is specious and doesn’t even pass the “grin” test. Further, one or two barrels of oil or one or two cubic meters of oil is something I can imagine. When you talk about nine million barrels of oil (or 1.4 million cubic meters), no one has an true sense whatsoever of such enormous magnitudes; in such contexts, they become nothing more than relative values of dimensionless quantities (Saudi Arabia exports about nine times more than Venezuela, or total production has declined 10% over a certain number of years).
I’m not saying that disambiguations of barrels to cubic meters can’t or shouldn’t be provided here on Wikipedia—they already are in our own Crude oil production article. I’m saying that the disambiguations to cubic meters don’t appear very often in that article and are very rarely used in the press. How Wikipedia currently handles it in Crude oil production (a few disambiguations in choice places) makes perfect sense and I’m perfectly at peace with the way it’s currently done. But showing a disambiguation to barrels as an example here takes on new significance for those battling on the broader issue. It also opened a can of worms because Canadian oil production is sometimes expressed in terms of cubic meters directly. Consequently, certain editors complained about how cubic meters as a parenthetical was taking a back seat to barrels for Canadian oil. For all the above reasons, barrels seemed a poor example to use in the ‘conversions’ paragraph.
If a broad consensus on this point can be reached by those here, then that’s fabulous. The trouble is that interest in this issue has waned. There are a limited number of editors active on this issue as compared to when tweaking of “Fourth draft” was in full force. Also, I believe that those other editors who flat out oppose everything “Follow current literature” represents (stripping away universal, flat out promotion of the SI in cases when an industry consistenly uses other units) simply want these poor choices inserted merely as a way of eroding the guideline and making its intent unclear. Go ask Jimp or Thunderbird2 or Gene Nygaard if they are going to sign on and officially support “Follow current literature” if we show a conversion for barrels. I have my prediction on that one. Greg L ( talk) 15:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
You already have asked me, Greg, and are waiting for a reply. Excuse my keeping you waiting but I think your prediction is probably just about spot on. "This issue ..." you claim "proved quite contentious" refering us to Discussion of “Fourth draft”. Shall we examine the section? There are nine names up there: Gerry Ashton, Lightmouse and me calling for the inclusion of the conversion in the example; MJCdetroit showing support for inclusion; Headbomb, LeadSongDog, Anderson and a recent anon mostly discussiong other issues thus not really showing any strong preference either way (do point it out if I'm wrong); and you, Greg, resisting this suggestion. There's your contention.
The whole while you attempted to appease us by insisting that the proposal was silent on whether oil barrel should be converted and thus the absence of a conversion should not be taken as an implication that no conversion should be given. We, on the other hand, have maintained that, regardless of the intent, this is how it will be read. Our position stems from the simple fact that people learn primarily from example rather than rule, a fact underlying Francis' excellent guidance on the role of examples. I put it to you, Greg, that you are fully aware of the potential effect of the ommission of conversions from the examples and that it is your intent to discourage conversion of oil barrels to cubic metres.
Let us, therefore, return to the two questions posed at the top of this section.
Should the MOS (dates and numbers) examples include conversions whenever appropriate. Does the absence of a conversion in an example send readers the message that it would be wrong to include a conversion in the situation illustrated by the example?
Do you not agree, Greg? You write "I’m not saying that disambiguations of barrels to cubic meters can’t or shouldn’t be provided here on Wikipedia", however, I can't help but interpret you that way. Greg, you refer us to Encyclopædia Britannica and the press noting how they use only barrels, you put the idea that readers may be unfamiliar with the 42-US-gallon oil barrel to the grin test. You write that "no one has an true sense whatsoever of such enormous magnitudes", speak for yourself. One million cubic metres is one cubic hectametre, the volume of a cube with edges twice the length of an Olympic swimming pool. One million barrels ... um ... 2,100 in × 3,300 in × 1,400 in ... um. Let's not make assumptions on what readers can and can easily visualise. Conversions to SI/metric are helpful and supported by consensus as I read it.
The argument against conversion of barrels to cubic metres seems to be that "the literature" doesn't do this and that too many conversions make for a "very dreary and tedious read". {Precisely Enough said about that point. Greg L ( talk) 20:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)} I'd suggest that an article with that many mentions of barrels within the prose is already very dreary and tedious and that the increase in dreariness and tediousness introduced by conversons is worth the extra comprehensibility and that the article should probably be reorganised to move the quoted quantities to a table, list, etc. Nor do I see why we can't do better than "the literature" by making our articles more accessible to those more familiar with the metric system than the US customary one.
Why all the fuss over oil barrels? "Why would someone think the oil example should be treated differently?" Gerry summed it up succinctly with "I see no need for conversion of metric to SI units if the conversion is just a matter of shifting the decimal point a bit, and would be obvious to most people familiar with metric units." We agree that µGal/cm should not be converted to s−2 and that "cc" need not be rewritten using the standard SI symbol. These other two need no conversion (though a conversion to imperial/US units might be included).
So, nothing to be accomplish by allowing this compromise with these particular holdouts? What we accomplish is sending the correct message to editors, that conversions are generally encouraged rather than discouraged, in accordance with wide long-standing consensus. If this be the will of editors, let it be. The text of MOSNUM won't be the result of some bargain struck between you and me, Greg. It's not up to you to allow me this nor is it up to me to allow you that. MOSNUM should reflect consensus. This is but one step in that direction. I'm not about to stop with this one. I hope we make all the steps necessary to achieve a state of consensus on this and then we can have peace.
JIMp talk· cont 18:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
This section was extensively discussed by a wide number of editors. Many, many revisions were made in order to arrive at a compromise solution that satisfied a clear and wide majority of the editors. It is improper for those who simply oppose the guideline altogether to try to get their way for the wholesale promotion of the SI in disciplines that consistently use other units of measure, by employing misleading edits on the guideline. Greg L ( talk) 20:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
You've removed the conversion claiming "This issue had been thoroughly discussed during the drafting of the guideline and dropped due to a clear lack of consensus". (Could we not apply this argument to the entire proposal?) If there wasn't much in the way of a clear consensus before, there seems to be one forming now ... or is this discussion just too late ... or too childish ridiculous and extremist? The conversion should remain in the example. What you've replaced it with is nothing close to what is being called for here. JIMp talk· cont 05:37, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Do I want even more than this small and very well justified concession? One thing I don't want is for MOSNUM to be a reflexion of some deal struck between two warring editors one afternoon in May 2008. It must reflect consensus. This conversion was discussed before, yes; was it not supported by the majority? Did the majority even mention it? The head-count I did of the section you pointed out above sure showed that, of those who specifically mentioned this issue, a majority were in favour of the inclusion of the conversion—everyone but you, Greg, to be precise. Is there another section that I'm missing. So, it was discussed, it's now being discussed again and thoroughly. SWTPC6800 has sided with your stance but the general feeling remains that the example should include the appropriate conversion. You mention that it was a conversion I added, I re-added it after it was removed by you, Greg. Gerry added it first. It most certainly was no step backwards: for all the reasons explained at length here we are better off with our examples' including appropriate conversions. It is clear that you don't believe that conversions from barrels to cubic metres is appropriate, now this I'll assure you is a minority view ... no, I don't need to assure you just look at the comments here.
I am happy to work in good faith (e.g. without accusations of vandalism) towards a greater consensus. This is exactly what the addition of this conversion was doing: moving towards a position better supported by consensus. This is progress. If it's further progress we want, we must continue the discussion not cling to our favourite snapshot of an old vote claiming this as a mandate to do exactly whatever we like. Yes, it is "best not to begin with edits you know full well the majority would disapprove of", like removing a well supported and well justified conversion from a list of examples.
We're asking for examples to include appropriate conversions so as not to mislead editors. Specifically, if we're using oil barrels, an example the form "x barrels (y m³)" as would appear in the text of an article. Note that it is but one article and that wiki articles are always up for improvement but Crude oil production, which you keep refering us to, includes several such conversions. Now the table lacks conversions but that can easily be put down to the fact that nobody has taken the task up as yet, perhaps I should give it a crack. This is just one article; there are many involving barrels, conversions to cubic metres are quite common amongst these. What you had had was a rough approximation of what a million barrels is. That's not what you see out the in WP. That's not what you see on Crude oil production.
You ask me what it is exactly that I want. Aren't you getting tired of reading my posts asking for this and demanding that? In a nutshell, though, I want an encyclopædia which is not afraid to communicate information in as clear, consistant and widely comprehensible fashion as possible. Do you not want about the same?
JIMp talk· cont 07:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Arbitration ... we could go to WP:AN3
Greg, I don't get it, though, just a few hours ago you seemed okay with the inclusion of the conversion even putting it into {{val}}. Now you remove it yet again. This is obviously in retaliation to Thunderbird2's placing of the disputed tag. Is this the game we're playing? The section is disputed ... can you not accept this? The majority (including MJCdetroit) here now support this conversion ... not just me ... and in the form that it had been in (this is not just exactly like I wanted but exactly what's being discussed). Yet you keep refering to some past discussion ... and exactly which past discussion was it, for the one you pointed to at the begining of this section showed a majority in support also? But these are different issues: giving appropriate example should not be contingent on whether or not this heated dispute as acknowledged on the page. You see nothing to be gained by providing examples with appropriate conversions so that editors won't be mislead into thinking that conversions are discouraged. What do you want to accomplish, having them mislead? JIMp talk· cont 19:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Calls to assume good faith from someone who only a few days ago called me a vandal seem a little rich. Gerry added the conversion as discussed here. You removed it. I put it back. You removed it. I put it back again. You removed it. So, the first removal replaced it with something completely different don't pretend that MJCdetroit suggested this, this was your own idea. The "example conversion" bears no resembalence whatsoever to what we are calling for here, what you removed. The addition of this which came along with the reversion was a seperate addition tagged on. Try a little "assuming good faith", ay? Why do you think we're discussing this here & not at WP:AN3? JIMp talk· cont 23:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
MOSNUM is silent on units of data rate. I would like to see kbit/s or Mbit/s preferred to kbps or Mbps. Any thoughts? Thunderbird2 ( talk) 22:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your replies.
Thunderbird2 ( talk) 15:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
In this particular case, I don’t have a major problem with “kbit/s” because someone who is reasonably familiar with computer terminology will be able to very easily parse it. For me, after having been away from that particular unit of measure for a while, I have to parse out “Kbps” in my mind to figure out what it means. OK: capital K, that’s the perverted kilo; lower-case b, that’s bits, not bytes… etc. However, that’s just me. As an SI-using engineer, I’m more familiar with the SI than most.
Very many readers who will be going to the article you are editing will have likely read only Kbps or Mbps in their owners manual, or will have gone to any number of speed-testing sites and will see the very same thing. Thus “kbit/s”, which is damn easy—at least for me—to interpret, will simply be unfamiliar to many readers. I would say that if you are going to use the version that is SI-compliant, I’m not going to soil my pants over this one. I would advise however, that if you find other readers/editors change it (someone who hasn’t been a party to all this arguing going on here), that you understand that they probably aren’t being “stubborn”; they probably had a WTF! reaction and were initially unfamiliar with what they were looking at. Remember, not everyone is scientifically minded, some people don’t truly parse and “understand” the unit of measure; it’s an abstracted symbol—like a Chinese character—and all they know is it’s different and isn’t the same thing they saw on their speed-test Web screen ten minutes earlier. That would be a signal that we need to go back to Technical Writing 101 and use the units of measure common to that industry to best avoid confusion—even if it’s a bastard child of a unit that breaks rules.
Note this too about how Encyclopedia Britannica handles units: they often don’t use abbreviations and stick with writing a unit of measure out if it isn’t repeated too often in the article. For instance, they might write “256 megabytes” instead of “256 MB”. Clearer you know; not everyone has read up on a subject and become familiar with terminology before going to an encyclopedia. Greg L ( talk) 16:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
In that case, here's my suggestion. Current wording reads
I propose this new bullet, just beneath that one:
Thunderbird2 ( talk) 16:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
"Yes, and MB/s and Mbit/s would seem a logical extension of that; hence my suggestion."
So… To Jimp and Thunderbird2. Go to town on this version. Make it something you would sign on to. Greg L ( talk) 21:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Click here to edit.
Return to Talk:MOSNUM
Use terminology and symbols commonly employed in the current literature for that subject and level of technicality. When in doubt, use the units of measure, prefixes, unit symbols, number notation, and methods of disambiguation most often employed in reliable periodicals directed to a similar readership.
The objective of technical writing is to communicate with minimal confusion so that readers can learn about a subject and are primed as well as possible to learn even more in their studies elsewhere. There are three important elements in determining what terminology and units of measure are best suited for a given article:
Preference for international units
I tweaked the sentence in Preference for international units section so that it does not appear to involve human height. I also abbreviated foot to ft, as it is suggested elsewhere in the mosnum.— MJCdetroit (yak) 12:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I removed the "binary prefix" example paragraph. GregL, if you are truly interested in achieving consensus on this "follow current literature" point, you should not object to the removal of such a hotly debated and WP:POINT-y "example." Jeh ( talk) 22:24, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
It seems that the page has settled down a little. A couple of days ago, Greg L invited me (and Jimp) to edit the fifth draft of his ‘Follow current literature’. Since then I’ve been thinking how best to do that. It occurs to me that before we start editing the text it would help if we could agree on some basic principles that we can all adhere to. Below is a list of 4 “baseline principles”, plus a 5th “guiding principle” for dealing with conflicts between the other 4. Principles 1-4 are presented in alphabetical order, with no precedence implied.
The issue of MB vs MiB is bound to come up at some point, so I may as well raise it now (without attempting to solve it though). In this context, I see a conflict between principles 2 and 4. Is this conflict the root cause of the ongoing dispute? How we address that to keep everyone happy I’m not sure, except to note that that is the purpose of principle 5.
Before taking this any further, I would like to gauge how much agreement there is among us about the 5 principles. To this end, please sign below as appropriate.
Thunderbird2 (
talk)
16:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
The list is complete but can be improved by (please suggest minor improvements)
There is a principle missing from the list (please specify)
I disagree with one or more of the principles included in the list (please specify)
space for more detailed comments here ...
When deciding whether an SI unit is familiar, any combination of a familar SI unit and a familiar SI prefix should be considered a familiar unit. Thus, gigagram is familar but picogram is not. -- Gerry Ashton ( talk) 19:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm getting the feeling that the examples are causing grief, so I've removed all of them. Do you disagree with any of the principles? Thunderbird2 ( talk) 09:27, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Greg's example of blood pressure is a powerful one. I expect mmHg to be with us for blood pressure measurement long after the QWERTY keyboard is gone—doctors just won't change something this deeply ingrained in their culture. In checking into it, however, I came across something useful as regards disambiguation techniques. I'd like to draw attention to the AMA Manual of Style, Tenth edition (2006). The Tenth edition's FAQ advises a change in this regard, calling for conversion factors to be stated in the article once, either at first use in text, in a "Methods" section, or (for tables or figures) in a legend or footnote. See the "SI Units" para at the link. LeadSongDog ( talk) 14:48, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I see. Let's try this then:
Thunderbird2 ( talk) 20:08, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Do you think professional publications and professional encyclopedias have rules for selecting units of measure that are this complex (?); a rule-set so complex that you need a sixth (no doubt soon to be seventh) rule on how to arbitrate conflicts within the rule set? How do you think Encyclopedia Britannica settled on using “barrels” for oil production (?), and “cc” for motorcycle and scooter engines (?), and “megabyte” for computer articles, and “milligal” for gravimetry (?), and “mmHg” for blood pressure? Do you think they had to have editorial meetings and engaged in endless and heated arguments over the meaning of a half-dozen+ rules governing the choice? Such a notion is totally absurd.
I have complete confidence that it’s all pretty simple and abundant common sense for other encyclopedias—you can see the simplicity by simply looking at the end result: if it’s an article very particular to the U.S., such as the distance from downtown L.A. to LAX, then the distance is in miles along with a parenthetical disambiguation to kilometers for the many English-language readers who are most familiar with the SI. Otherwise, the preference is to use SI where possible. But if a discipline consistently uses different units of measure (blood pressure in mmHg), then use those units. Why? So that our readers can learn about a subject and are primed as well as possible to learn even more in their studies elsewhere. And so readers can readily converse with others who are knowledgeable in that discipline. Done.
This is just drop-dead simple. It is only complex because you insist on hijacking Wikipedia in a vain effort to promote the adoption of the IEC binary prefixes and the SI in those disciplines that failed to do so. It’s been nearly a decade since the IEC proposed their prefixes and nearly two years since Sarenne ran off and changed hundreds of Wikipedia articles to use them. And still the rest of the world (manufacturers, magazines, computer users, other encyclopedias) isn’t using them to this day. And they won’t another ten years from now. You can try to write “a healthy blood pressure is 160 hPa over 90 hPa” but ten years from now, the medical community will still be using millimeters of mercury. I could handle some editors’ stubbornness if the foundation of their position was somehow remotely grounded in the true reality of the situation.
Please affirm one of the two below declarations so I know whether or not spending all this time responding to your posts is an utter and complete waste of time:
1) I [your name here] still want Wikiipedia to use the IEC prefixes in its general-interest computer-related articles and/or also want to have project-wide, consistent use of the SI system of measurement, even where certain disciplines consistently don’t use the SI. Further, the above six-point list of “common ground” is really a list of attributes I thought were all indisputably virtuous goodliness intended to pave the way for getting my way. Or…
2) I don’t have the objectives mentioned in #1 above, and simply ended up with a half-dozen attributes to consider in choosing units of measure in an attempt to find common ground and because six rules made gobs of sense to me.
Do tell; which is it? I am truly not interested in wasting my time in the name of “finding common ground” if we’re really beating around the bush and there is no common ground on the central point of the dispute. And please, spare me your protestations over how I am demonstrating a lack of “assuming good faith.” I’ve read your arguments on this and other pages for months now and your desires have been consistent and clear from day-one. “Assuming good faith” doesn’t mean I have to “suspend common sense.” Greg L ( talk) 22:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Further, the support votes were, without exception, accompanied by calm, reasoned statements along the lines of “makes sense to me & solves a long-standing problem”. Whereas the “oppose” votes were typically truly irrational nonsense such as “this is just a underhanded attempt to deprecate the use of the SI on Wikipedia.” Like other editors have said here, a general consensus had clearly formed and, in part, this was due to the fact that the arguments of the “oppose” element were fallacious. Reasoned arguments simply carry greater weight than do wholesale exagerations.
Let’s simply call a spade a spade. The “support” crowd doesn’t have a burden with our true objective; we simply want to follow how other encyclopedia’s choose units of measure because the reason for doing so addresses an important objective of technical writing. The “oppose” crowd has the uphill battle of having to find an argument that circumvents the inconvenient truth of the matter: that you simply think that when it comes to choosing units of measure, you guys somehow know better than the professional, paid editors at all the general-interest computer magazines and print encyclopedias throughout the world. You want Wikipedia off all on its own using “hectopascals” for blood pressure and “kibibits” for computer chips even though this isn’t how the real world talks and writes. This truth of your position is something that only Headbomb was willing to admit to (see Example of Follow current literature above). The majority here have neither the naive arrogance, nor the propensity to resort to fallacious arguments in a vain attempt to simply get our way. We prefer to believe that the paid professional editors with advance journalism degrees at Encyclopedia Britannica can actually teach us novice hobbyists a thing or two.
As to “not answering my leading questions”, it seems a fairly straightforward question: is your six-point list really a way to see if we have some common ground (?), or are you wasting everyone’s time here because the six points are nothing more than beating around the bush, and there is no common ground on the central point of the dispute? You don’t like it when someone asks this question. I guess, that’s just too bad.
As to your “And please, the spectre of the Evil User Sarenne is pretty tired, don't you think?” I didn’t say Sarenne was evil. I said Sarenne went around and changed a hundred or so Wikipedia articles from the conventional binary prefixes to the IEC prefixes until he was banned for life for all the havoc that created. Is that another inconvenient truth?
Finally, “ Fifth draft” has been provided above for the “oppose” crowd to show what they mean to accomplish here. Either edit it in a realistic fashion that you expect everyone on both sides will be able to sign on to, or edit it so it reflects precisely what you wish you could accomplish. Either way, I’d be happy as a clam. All this “let’s find common ground” business of Thunderbird2’s, with its gamed questions that have had the examples stripped completely the hell out of them so they are ambiguous beyond all reason, is a colossal waste of time. Get to the point! Show what you want in “Fifth draft”. I did it with “ First draft”, “ Suggested tweak”, “ Third, hybrid proposal”, and “ Fourth draft” (which had over a dozen editors working hard on it in good faith to craft); it’s your turn now. Completely revise it for all I care. Just craft a proposal of some sort; that’s not too much to ask. Greg L ( talk) 07:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Various replies, more or less in the order of your posts:
Thunderbird2 ( talk) 12:14, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
“ | principle 5 would be follow the example in the literature. MB is not ambiguous when it is disambiguated with the number of bytes and that is a familiar method seen in the article sources. MB disambiguated with MiB uses unfamiliar units and does not follow the example in the article sources. On balance not using MiB is better for the readers because Wikipedia always caters for a general audience. There is a separate Wiki for text book style articles so IEC is not to be used in this Wiki for most of the articles. Judging by modern text books it is clear most do not use IEC either.DavidPaulHamilton (talk) 09:00, 17 May 2008 (UTC) | ” |
but I can't divine a suggested example in that. Could you please clarify what your suggested wording? LeadSongDog ( talk) 23:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I read things quickly and decided to give it a shot. I tried to rank the principles in priority. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 21:11, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I've incorporated some of your recommendations. I'm still iffy about the conversion thing. If you have a bunch of measures in an article, it would be tedious and annoying to see "A 20 yards (insert X meters) rope, a 25 yard (insert Y meters) plank, a 2 yard stick (Z meters)" etc... If yard is the commonly used unit, then it makes more sense IMO to relate the yard to the meter, than give conversion every time a measure in yard is given (say in American Football).
And no, inches are not modern. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 01:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The vast majority of the other editors who worked on “Follow current literature” understand all the above. Whether it’s writing that “the cost of crude is US$128 per barrel,” or “many computers today come stock with two gigabytes of RAM,” that’s the way the real world communicates. What you desire amounts to nothing more than the promotion of the IEC prefixes and the SI in writing about disciplines that currently do not use these units. If it had been established long ago that encyclopedias can quickly foster change in language practices, then this discussion would be a different matter altogether. But that’s simply not the case and never was. The clear majority of the editors here have the wisdom to recognize that notwithstanding what you’d personally like to do, ten years from now, the world will still be discussing crude oil production and commerce in terms of barrels, and computer memory gigabytes. So please desist with declarations of what a “megabyte means”; that notion has been thoroughly debated here and in other Wikipedia venues and completely dismissed by all but some stubborn holdouts. Even if you don orange robes and set fire to yourself over this, your argument will continue to be soundly rejected as false; the clear consensus (those editors with honest and reasoned arguments) is that the wise thing to do is reject and ignore such nonsense. Just because you insist that ‘red is blue’ doesn’t make it so. The consensus is that the proper way to communicate to readers is to follow the practices consistently used in current literature on that subject—as does Encyclopedia Britannica and other professionally edited encyclopedias. Anything else amounts to nothing more than rejecting the practices of other professionally edited encyclopedias and makes Wikipedia appear as if it has been hijacked by foolish, idealistic young people who’ve read way too many sci-fi books. Greg L ( talk) 17:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Greg, Headbomb is trying to help here. Feel free to criticise what he or anyone else writes, but kindly refrain from making personal attacks in the future. You may wish to read through your last post and consider rephrasing it. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 17:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
There is no bright-line rule about what constitutes a personal attack as opposed to constructive discussion, but some types of comments are never acceptable:
I'm perfectly aware of the status of the IEC units debate on wikipedia. I'm stating my position, I'm not imposing it, so please don't insinuate that I am doing so or saying that I should desist from doing so. I have never changed one green box to this effect, never changed or reverted any article using MB instead of MiB or vice-versa, I have not edited the MOS binary prefixes section, and I have never presumed that my position had consenus. This is my position, and if it gains consensus (which it probably won't), will land on the MOS. If it doesn't gain consensus (the likeliest scenario), then then it'll stay in the talk pages. So please stop what rant you're going on right now and let's get back to the real issues — is the third attempt a ste stop in the right direction? Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 19:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not trying to help? What the hell has all my time here been for then? I've kept my cool far longer than I could have, and I still have my cool, but don't push your luck. I'll remind you that you thanked me several times for many of my contributions here. I wonder why suddenly I'm "not trying to help" when about a week ago you said this of me:
I think you're just pissed that some people think that IEC prefixes have a place on Wikipedia that is not solely on the IEC convention related articles, and that another user who thinks that IEC prefixes have a place on Wikipedia concurred, and that I've been the latest scapegoat of all your feeling on the IEC prefixes issue. While we're not debating the current binary prefixes policy, the fact remains that if I and three millions editors did push for a rational use of IEC prefixes, and make a strong enough case to gain consensus, then wikipedia (including you) will need to comply, else you would be no better than what you accuse us to be (radical extremists who are in the clear minority). But that is not what I, or anyone else from what I can see, is trying to push for here. You're the only one that flips out on IEC prefixes anytime a computer related prefix comes up. The binary prefixes section has not been modified and is not being debated by anyone at this moment in time, so unless you want that debate to be re-opened, stop flipping out every two seconds.
I would suggest that you take an hour-long break before posting that someone is not trying to help. It's not just me that you target, but you did the same thing with Jimp, calling his viewpoint that of a "ridiculous extremist movement" when he raised valid concerns. I too agreed that the concerns were not big enough to stop the greenbox from going forward, even if the policy would need to tackle them head on in the future. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 21:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Now imagine that the whole of section 4 were to be removed, and replaced with this structure:
There’s a lot of flesh to be added, but let’s not get bogged down with details yet. Just assume for now that the wording and examples to be used embody the principles in a form you find acceptable.
The question is: Would it work like this? Thunderbird2 ( talk) 21:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree that section 4 should be rewritten entirely. However, I would organize things this way:
Essentially removing the Follow current literature' section since the third attempt covers it, and relocating the Unnecessary vagueness section somewhere more appropriate.
Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 21:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree about relocating Unnecessary Vagueness, but would prefer not to give special treatment to Binary Prefixes at this early stage. In other words, let's aim for a generic treatment of all units first. If that doesn't work we can always add things later. But we should aim to keep it simple. What do others think? Thunderbird2 ( talk) 21:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
It's not that I want to give Binary prefixe a special treatment, I would looooooooove for that debate to be settled. I feel that the third attempt covers them completely (3rd point). There is consistent use of MB in the sense of MB in hard drive makers, and consistent use of MB as MiB in ram makers. So use MB in each and give conversion to modern unit. 1MB = 1 000 000 bytes in the first case, and 1MB = 1 048 576 bytes in the second, with a possible mention that this is really a MiB and that using MB is a misnomer). However, considering the long-ass debate about this, not mentionning the binary prefixes explicitly would just create more problems than we already have. Plus we could specify something like use MB for both, but always disambiguate, and link MB to MB in the first case and MB to MiB in the second case. Or something like that.
And if wikipedia would put its pants on, it would require MB to mean MB everytime MB is used, and purged itself of all MB that means MiB and place a "MB vs MiB" box at the top of every article that uses either so users are aware that MB means MB and that MiB means MiB before reading articles. This is not a case of not following current literature to impose house rules to the world. It is a case of the current literature being retarded and that we HAVE to use house rules so the world understands what is meant. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 22:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't care what is the result of the binary prefix discussion, I'm just saying that's how I would do things. Whatever's agreed upon will go in the binary prefix section of MoS. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 12:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
According to WP:Multilingual statistics, the articles on en: are now 24% of the total in WP. I don't see much in this discussion that reflects that. Ease of translation matters, whether it is done by humans or machines. I would therefore renew my earlier plea for measures that facilitate conversion into other languages. This doesn't just pertain to dates and unit names, it also comes up in other areas. I routinely use {{In lang|fr}} to render (in French) instead of (French) in citations. When pasted into a translation of the article, it automagically renders something readable in that language. This is a good thing. We should encourage it. This is why I want unit names and date names to be rendered rather than simple text. The servers can cope with it. Failing that, a wikilink to unit articles on first or isolated usage is assistive to human translators But forming guidance here without taking other languages into consideration is grotesquely wasteful of translators time. LeadSongDog ( talk) 20:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Before we get any further. I'd just like to note ... just in case, y'know. That the thousand-byte kilobyte, the million-byte megabyte, the thousand-million-byte gigabyte, the billion-byte terabyte, etc. are not and never were SI units. But we all know that, right? Sorry to waste everyone's time. JIMp talk· cont 04:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I found "3.1×10−6 s–2" on the page. Look carefully and you might notice that the first minus sign is somewhat higher and longer than the second (of course, this may depend on your font, browser, etc.). I changed it to "3.1×10−6 s−2". What's going on? The second minus sign had actually been an en-dash. Whilst an en-dash might make a satisfactory minus sign when all by itself, whenever it appears along side a real minus sign the result is pretty damn ugly. For comparison's sake:
So, there's one disadvantage with allowing the en-dash as a minus sign. Is there any advantage? I can't think of one. If not, I propose to rewrite the text to allow only minus signs as minus signs. JIMp talk· cont 07:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
It's plain as day to me using IE on XP and Vista & using default WP font too ... or else I wouldn't have spotted it. JIMp talk· cont 15:40, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Does this make it clearer: "3.1×10−2 s–2" ? All I did was change the 6 to a 2 in Jimp's example. The relative position of the two and minus sign are clearly different (using XP + firefox). Thunderbird2 ( talk) 16:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
We definitely don't want the hyphen as a minus sign (except as parser function input, e.g. the e=-2
above) but the hyphen, along with the em-dash are already ruled out. I'm talking about the minus sign (−
) vs the en-dash (&endash;
). An article might cheerfully be going along consistantly using en-dashes for minus signs then along comes a template (like {{val}} or {{convert}}) which uses the real minus sign and upsets the happy harmony. The editors will have to go through an fix the article up again, better to have used minus signs all along. I'm only suggesting the rule be simplified to "use the minus sign for minus signs".
JIMp
talk·
cont 18:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
What I see is as Woodstone describes, those en-dashes are all joined up, not so the minus signs.
JIMp
talk·
cont
18:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't know how to say this without making you seem ... um ... actually when you code {{val}}'s e
parameter with a hyphen it gives a minus sign which is distinct from an en-dash. That it won't work with an en-dash is due to the presence of a parser function in the template code. The en-dash (–) is better than the hyphen (-). The hyphen is one thing we don't want. I'm not suggesting we use it. I'm suggesting we use the minus sign (−). Copy, paste and [Ctrl][F] each of those dashes and see what you hit.
With hyphen: | 1.23 × 10-19 kg |
With an en-dash: | 1.23 × 10–19 kg |
With a minus sign: | 1.23 × 10−19 kg |
Open an edit window, go down to the tool box and you'll see "Insert:–—…...±−×..." the first is the en-dash, the minus sign is between the "±" and the "×". JIMp talk· cont 19:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
{{delimitnum|1.23||-19|kg}} (with a hard-coded hyphen): 1.23 × 10-19 kg
{{delimitnum|1.23||&endash;19|kg}} (with a hard-coded en-dash): 1.23 × 10–19 kg
{{delimitnum|1.23||&emdash;19|kg}} (with a hard-coded em-dash): 1.23 × 10—19 kg
{{val|1.23|e=-19|u=kg}} (with a typed hyphen because {val} doesn’t accept hard-coding): 1.23×10−19 kg
{{val|1.23|e=–19|u=kg}} (with a typed en-dash): Error in {{
val}}: exponent parameter (e) is not a valid number.
{{val|1.23|e=—19|u=kg}} (with a typed em-dash): Error in {{
val}}: exponent parameter (e) is not a valid number.
I haven’t looked at {val}’s code, but it looks like if you use a hyphen (what editors would naturally do), it substitutes an en-dash. No? Try looking at this page using Safari. Greg L ( talk) 19:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
No, it substitutes a minus sign (which is neither an en-dash nor a hyphen). I know that there are differences between the templates (I have made a minor edit to {{val}} & {{delimitnum}}, as you know is the template I was going to write if we couldn't get a parser function version). What happened to the talk of merging them? JIMp talk· cont 19:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I just did an extreme zoom on the minus and en-dash and there is a difference (although incredibly small). See for yourself:
From top to bottom: dash, endash, minus, emdash
-
–
−
—
So I suggest that minus signs are used when minus signs are meant, including in the val template.
Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 19:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Four different beasts.
hyphen: | - |
en-dash: | – |
minus sign: | − |
em-dash: | — |
Copy & paste them into a [Ctrl][F] and see what matches you find. JIMp talk· cont 19:43, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I do know that {val} isn’t returning the ultra-short sign and I like it. If you guys do too, then I’m happy. Apparently on Safari, the Unicode minus sign uses something the same length as an en-dash. What do you guys see? Greg L ( talk) 19:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I use Firefox and the minus is slightly shorter than the endash. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 20:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Well I think it should flat out say that when you want to use a minus sign, use a minus sign −, not a hyphen, and not the endash (as the MOS currently explicitly allows). There will be no edit war on this, so while it won't change the world, the users who refer to the MOS will now use minus for the minus sign when they used the endash. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 21:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
In generating mathematical expressions, typing a common hyphen (-) from the keyboard to denote the mathematic symbol ‘minus’ (−) is not considered ‘incorrect.’ However for denoting the ‘minus’ symbol, the true Unicode ‘minus’ character (U+2212) is conveniently available on the Insert palette and its use is encouraged and is considered as the preferred symbol in mathematical expressions—particularly for use in subscripts and superscripts.
I don't mean to be argumentative but the above is a little wordy. The current text states as follows.
For a negative sign or subtraction operator, use a minus sign (−), input by clicking on it in the insert box beneath the edit window or by keying in −, or an en dash (see En dashes); do not use a hyphen, unless writing code, or an em dash.
I propose to change it to the following.
For a negative sign or subtraction operator, use a minus sign (−), input by keying in − or by clicking on it in the insert box beneath the edit window; do not use a hyphen (unless writing code), an en dash or an em dash.
Good point about the editors who have yet to get up to speed on Wikipedia ... what proportion of those have heard of an en dash? And if they're unaware of the MOS anyway, no harm's done. JIMp talk· cont 00:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
There's no one is guilty of elitism here, people will keep using the hyphen to write a minus sign for all eternity, however, the MOS should not condone the use of a hyphen in place of the minus sign. The only thing having this in the MOS do is advertise the minus sign as existing, and those who care will use the minus sign instead of hyphens. Minus signs will spread over Wikipedia, and those who don't read the MOS will learn that minus signs exist through editing, they will see in their watchlist that ndashes were substituted for minus signs when minus signs were meant and many will adapt. And thus wikipedia will have greater uniformity. It can never be perfect, because not everyone follows the MOS, and some just won't care to use a minus instead of a dash. But it's not because there are some who will not use the minus that we should be lenient in the standards or refuse to take step fowards.
Headbomb (
ταλκ ·
κοντριβς)
00:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Changes have been made throughout the MOS to reflect this. No en dash instead of minus signs. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 00:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Logic would dictate that people use minus signs when they mean a minus sign. We don't mean x raised to the power of en dash 2, but x raised to the power of minus 2, so why write the former? As for practical reasons, when using templates (who usually go with minus signs since that is what is meant), the minus and the en dash are vertically unaligned. See 2.234×10−4m2kg–4 vs. 2.234×10−4m2kg−4. Also the en dash overlaps with some characters at certain zoom levels (compare the 4s and you'll see that the dashes overlaps while the minus doesn't (I use firefox in 1280x800 )).
Headbomb (
ταλκ ·
κοντριβς)
01:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Someone should make something equivalent to − for that sign, and include in in the insert palette. It's a useful sign, and it should be availible to editors. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 00:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps this isn't the place, but ongoing accusation of sockpuppetry have been brought up many times now. Could someone verify that DPH is or isn't a sock? At first I thought people accusing DPH of being socks were themselves socks (since they didn't use registered names). But someone (Jimp? Tony1?) just mentionned that DPH showed a unusually high understanding of wikipedia for a newbie. So I've checked DPH's contribution pages and the first two weeks of contribution were exclusively on the MOS related pages. This seems rather fishy. Who starts an account to debate binary prefixes on the MOS? Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 02:34, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Okay, so using edit summaries isn't any sort of proof of anything. Note, though, how my first few hundered edit summaries are devoid of Wikijargon whereas DPH's contain stuff like " The other user is edit warring", " remove tag added by a completely new single purpose account", " the new accounts are vandals", etc. (I especially like the ones about the new accounts). Yes, my first edits as a registered user were on time-zone and measurement articles (the SI and time zones exist outside of Wikipedia) ... not in the thick of some policy debate. I certainly was not so bold as a newcomer to take it upon myself to guard policy pages assuming to understand what is meant by "consensus" on Wikipedia. JIMp talk· cont 08:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The logic of it all just blows me away.
Oh the logic incredible! JIMp talk· cont 00:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Blocked David Paul Hamilton has been blocked as a suspected sock of Fnagaton. JIMp talk· cont 00:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
With greater specificity: DPH has been blocked for being a sock and it is suspected as being a sock of Fnagaton. Greg L ( talk) 00:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 95 | ← | Archive 99 | Archive 100 | Archive 101 | Archive 102 | Archive 103 | → | Archive 105 |
Should the MOS (dates and numbers) examples include conversions whenever appropriate. Does the absence of a conversion in an example send readers the message that it would be wrong to include a conversion in the situation illustrated by the example?
In particular, is it appropriate to use the unit "barrel of oil" without a conversion? -- Gerry Ashton ( talk) 20:27, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Note that Wikipedia’s own article on Crude oil production is somewhat mixed on this issue. One section shows a one-time conversion but also features a large chart that is tallied exclusively in barrels. Different editors arrived at different conclusions regarding parenthetical conversions for barrels but all agreed with the notion that the primary unit should be barrel since that is the unit universally used in industry and commerce and is the way current literature deals with it. It was determined that how conversions of barrels are done was nowhere nearly so clearcut and was dependent on exact context. It’s going to be really hard to make progress here if old issues are dredged up over and over. This particular issue was debated and addressed. Why open a can of worms? Greg L ( talk) 20:44, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm happy to accept consensus where consensus can be shown. I believe you'll find consensus is for rather than against the provision of conversions. Now there are three of us who seem would prefer conversions to be included in the examples, I don't think that that's a big ask. JIMp talk· cont 02:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree with this nuance. JIMp talk· cont 03:59, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
I’ve learned much here on Wikipedia about how some people negotiate and operate. Tbird may protest that I feel betrayed over his vote but just pardon me all over if my worldview is that actions speak louder than words. I’m not at all bitter about this because I half expected it. But fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me.
Not surprisingly, certain editors here (some of whom were responsible for the “Binary prefix” policy two years ago), don’t agree with the fundamental point of “Follow current literature” and its call for no longer using them. That’s pretty fundamental and this nit picking around the edges simply amounts to harassing maneuvers. It’s clear that Jimp, if his future actions remain consistent with his past, is one of those who is fundamentally opposed to this entire section and has “issues” with it that are highly unlikely to be satisfied with minor tweaking. The principal of “assume good faith” does not require that I suspend common sense. I believe this incessant nagging over some of the guideline’s details amounts to nothing more than that—nagging—and will not result in any more support from the “oppose” crowd.
It is better that we get other admins (or a Bureaucrat) involved here to address Omegatron’s improperly taking sides on an issue in which he had been active by posting the lower {{disputed}} tag here. Hopefully, this will also lead to a ruling on whether “Follow current literature” was also properly adopted. A much greater majority of editors weighed in on “Follow current literature” in good faith to help craft the best possible wording that satisfied diverse—and often divergent—views. In the end, no way could be found to accommodate the wishes of those who fundamentally oppose it—notwithstanding some of my efforts with Thunderbird2.
I could use some advice from Fnagaton and others as to whether not this Wikiquette alert against Omegatron for taking sides in this dispute as an involved administrator (see Improper interference by involved administrator, below) is the best venue. I believe there may be better venues. Greg L ( talk) 14:27, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
You may recall that I originally had an oil conversion in that paragraph but removed it to make peace on this very issue. As for a Gerry Ashton’s argument that a barrel of oil “is about as unfamiliar a unit as you're likely to find”, I think someone would have had to have spent their entire life in a cave to have not seen actual barrels of oil on the TV; it’s standard “B-roll” footage (0.3 meterage) whenever there is a news piece on crude oil production. Even a standard chemical drum (55 U.S. gallons) is close enough to a 42-gallon oil drum to get the gist across (and chemical drums are terribly ubiquitous on TV and in the movies). In my mind, an argument that readers coming to Wikipedia have no sense of the magnitude of a barrel is specious and doesn’t even pass the “grin” test. Further, one or two barrels of oil or one or two cubic meters of oil is something I can imagine. When you talk about nine million barrels of oil (or 1.4 million cubic meters), no one has an true sense whatsoever of such enormous magnitudes; in such contexts, they become nothing more than relative values of dimensionless quantities (Saudi Arabia exports about nine times more than Venezuela, or total production has declined 10% over a certain number of years).
I’m not saying that disambiguations of barrels to cubic meters can’t or shouldn’t be provided here on Wikipedia—they already are in our own Crude oil production article. I’m saying that the disambiguations to cubic meters don’t appear very often in that article and are very rarely used in the press. How Wikipedia currently handles it in Crude oil production (a few disambiguations in choice places) makes perfect sense and I’m perfectly at peace with the way it’s currently done. But showing a disambiguation to barrels as an example here takes on new significance for those battling on the broader issue. It also opened a can of worms because Canadian oil production is sometimes expressed in terms of cubic meters directly. Consequently, certain editors complained about how cubic meters as a parenthetical was taking a back seat to barrels for Canadian oil. For all the above reasons, barrels seemed a poor example to use in the ‘conversions’ paragraph.
If a broad consensus on this point can be reached by those here, then that’s fabulous. The trouble is that interest in this issue has waned. There are a limited number of editors active on this issue as compared to when tweaking of “Fourth draft” was in full force. Also, I believe that those other editors who flat out oppose everything “Follow current literature” represents (stripping away universal, flat out promotion of the SI in cases when an industry consistenly uses other units) simply want these poor choices inserted merely as a way of eroding the guideline and making its intent unclear. Go ask Jimp or Thunderbird2 or Gene Nygaard if they are going to sign on and officially support “Follow current literature” if we show a conversion for barrels. I have my prediction on that one. Greg L ( talk) 15:51, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
You already have asked me, Greg, and are waiting for a reply. Excuse my keeping you waiting but I think your prediction is probably just about spot on. "This issue ..." you claim "proved quite contentious" refering us to Discussion of “Fourth draft”. Shall we examine the section? There are nine names up there: Gerry Ashton, Lightmouse and me calling for the inclusion of the conversion in the example; MJCdetroit showing support for inclusion; Headbomb, LeadSongDog, Anderson and a recent anon mostly discussiong other issues thus not really showing any strong preference either way (do point it out if I'm wrong); and you, Greg, resisting this suggestion. There's your contention.
The whole while you attempted to appease us by insisting that the proposal was silent on whether oil barrel should be converted and thus the absence of a conversion should not be taken as an implication that no conversion should be given. We, on the other hand, have maintained that, regardless of the intent, this is how it will be read. Our position stems from the simple fact that people learn primarily from example rather than rule, a fact underlying Francis' excellent guidance on the role of examples. I put it to you, Greg, that you are fully aware of the potential effect of the ommission of conversions from the examples and that it is your intent to discourage conversion of oil barrels to cubic metres.
Let us, therefore, return to the two questions posed at the top of this section.
Should the MOS (dates and numbers) examples include conversions whenever appropriate. Does the absence of a conversion in an example send readers the message that it would be wrong to include a conversion in the situation illustrated by the example?
Do you not agree, Greg? You write "I’m not saying that disambiguations of barrels to cubic meters can’t or shouldn’t be provided here on Wikipedia", however, I can't help but interpret you that way. Greg, you refer us to Encyclopædia Britannica and the press noting how they use only barrels, you put the idea that readers may be unfamiliar with the 42-US-gallon oil barrel to the grin test. You write that "no one has an true sense whatsoever of such enormous magnitudes", speak for yourself. One million cubic metres is one cubic hectametre, the volume of a cube with edges twice the length of an Olympic swimming pool. One million barrels ... um ... 2,100 in × 3,300 in × 1,400 in ... um. Let's not make assumptions on what readers can and can easily visualise. Conversions to SI/metric are helpful and supported by consensus as I read it.
The argument against conversion of barrels to cubic metres seems to be that "the literature" doesn't do this and that too many conversions make for a "very dreary and tedious read". {Precisely Enough said about that point. Greg L ( talk) 20:48, 13 May 2008 (UTC)} I'd suggest that an article with that many mentions of barrels within the prose is already very dreary and tedious and that the increase in dreariness and tediousness introduced by conversons is worth the extra comprehensibility and that the article should probably be reorganised to move the quoted quantities to a table, list, etc. Nor do I see why we can't do better than "the literature" by making our articles more accessible to those more familiar with the metric system than the US customary one.
Why all the fuss over oil barrels? "Why would someone think the oil example should be treated differently?" Gerry summed it up succinctly with "I see no need for conversion of metric to SI units if the conversion is just a matter of shifting the decimal point a bit, and would be obvious to most people familiar with metric units." We agree that µGal/cm should not be converted to s−2 and that "cc" need not be rewritten using the standard SI symbol. These other two need no conversion (though a conversion to imperial/US units might be included).
So, nothing to be accomplish by allowing this compromise with these particular holdouts? What we accomplish is sending the correct message to editors, that conversions are generally encouraged rather than discouraged, in accordance with wide long-standing consensus. If this be the will of editors, let it be. The text of MOSNUM won't be the result of some bargain struck between you and me, Greg. It's not up to you to allow me this nor is it up to me to allow you that. MOSNUM should reflect consensus. This is but one step in that direction. I'm not about to stop with this one. I hope we make all the steps necessary to achieve a state of consensus on this and then we can have peace.
JIMp talk· cont 18:47, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
This section was extensively discussed by a wide number of editors. Many, many revisions were made in order to arrive at a compromise solution that satisfied a clear and wide majority of the editors. It is improper for those who simply oppose the guideline altogether to try to get their way for the wholesale promotion of the SI in disciplines that consistently use other units of measure, by employing misleading edits on the guideline. Greg L ( talk) 20:37, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
You've removed the conversion claiming "This issue had been thoroughly discussed during the drafting of the guideline and dropped due to a clear lack of consensus". (Could we not apply this argument to the entire proposal?) If there wasn't much in the way of a clear consensus before, there seems to be one forming now ... or is this discussion just too late ... or too childish ridiculous and extremist? The conversion should remain in the example. What you've replaced it with is nothing close to what is being called for here. JIMp talk· cont 05:37, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Do I want even more than this small and very well justified concession? One thing I don't want is for MOSNUM to be a reflexion of some deal struck between two warring editors one afternoon in May 2008. It must reflect consensus. This conversion was discussed before, yes; was it not supported by the majority? Did the majority even mention it? The head-count I did of the section you pointed out above sure showed that, of those who specifically mentioned this issue, a majority were in favour of the inclusion of the conversion—everyone but you, Greg, to be precise. Is there another section that I'm missing. So, it was discussed, it's now being discussed again and thoroughly. SWTPC6800 has sided with your stance but the general feeling remains that the example should include the appropriate conversion. You mention that it was a conversion I added, I re-added it after it was removed by you, Greg. Gerry added it first. It most certainly was no step backwards: for all the reasons explained at length here we are better off with our examples' including appropriate conversions. It is clear that you don't believe that conversions from barrels to cubic metres is appropriate, now this I'll assure you is a minority view ... no, I don't need to assure you just look at the comments here.
I am happy to work in good faith (e.g. without accusations of vandalism) towards a greater consensus. This is exactly what the addition of this conversion was doing: moving towards a position better supported by consensus. This is progress. If it's further progress we want, we must continue the discussion not cling to our favourite snapshot of an old vote claiming this as a mandate to do exactly whatever we like. Yes, it is "best not to begin with edits you know full well the majority would disapprove of", like removing a well supported and well justified conversion from a list of examples.
We're asking for examples to include appropriate conversions so as not to mislead editors. Specifically, if we're using oil barrels, an example the form "x barrels (y m³)" as would appear in the text of an article. Note that it is but one article and that wiki articles are always up for improvement but Crude oil production, which you keep refering us to, includes several such conversions. Now the table lacks conversions but that can easily be put down to the fact that nobody has taken the task up as yet, perhaps I should give it a crack. This is just one article; there are many involving barrels, conversions to cubic metres are quite common amongst these. What you had had was a rough approximation of what a million barrels is. That's not what you see out the in WP. That's not what you see on Crude oil production.
You ask me what it is exactly that I want. Aren't you getting tired of reading my posts asking for this and demanding that? In a nutshell, though, I want an encyclopædia which is not afraid to communicate information in as clear, consistant and widely comprehensible fashion as possible. Do you not want about the same?
JIMp talk· cont 07:52, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Arbitration ... we could go to WP:AN3
Greg, I don't get it, though, just a few hours ago you seemed okay with the inclusion of the conversion even putting it into {{val}}. Now you remove it yet again. This is obviously in retaliation to Thunderbird2's placing of the disputed tag. Is this the game we're playing? The section is disputed ... can you not accept this? The majority (including MJCdetroit) here now support this conversion ... not just me ... and in the form that it had been in (this is not just exactly like I wanted but exactly what's being discussed). Yet you keep refering to some past discussion ... and exactly which past discussion was it, for the one you pointed to at the begining of this section showed a majority in support also? But these are different issues: giving appropriate example should not be contingent on whether or not this heated dispute as acknowledged on the page. You see nothing to be gained by providing examples with appropriate conversions so that editors won't be mislead into thinking that conversions are discouraged. What do you want to accomplish, having them mislead? JIMp talk· cont 19:50, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Calls to assume good faith from someone who only a few days ago called me a vandal seem a little rich. Gerry added the conversion as discussed here. You removed it. I put it back. You removed it. I put it back again. You removed it. So, the first removal replaced it with something completely different don't pretend that MJCdetroit suggested this, this was your own idea. The "example conversion" bears no resembalence whatsoever to what we are calling for here, what you removed. The addition of this which came along with the reversion was a seperate addition tagged on. Try a little "assuming good faith", ay? Why do you think we're discussing this here & not at WP:AN3? JIMp talk· cont 23:46, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
MOSNUM is silent on units of data rate. I would like to see kbit/s or Mbit/s preferred to kbps or Mbps. Any thoughts? Thunderbird2 ( talk) 22:18, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your replies.
Thunderbird2 ( talk) 15:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
In this particular case, I don’t have a major problem with “kbit/s” because someone who is reasonably familiar with computer terminology will be able to very easily parse it. For me, after having been away from that particular unit of measure for a while, I have to parse out “Kbps” in my mind to figure out what it means. OK: capital K, that’s the perverted kilo; lower-case b, that’s bits, not bytes… etc. However, that’s just me. As an SI-using engineer, I’m more familiar with the SI than most.
Very many readers who will be going to the article you are editing will have likely read only Kbps or Mbps in their owners manual, or will have gone to any number of speed-testing sites and will see the very same thing. Thus “kbit/s”, which is damn easy—at least for me—to interpret, will simply be unfamiliar to many readers. I would say that if you are going to use the version that is SI-compliant, I’m not going to soil my pants over this one. I would advise however, that if you find other readers/editors change it (someone who hasn’t been a party to all this arguing going on here), that you understand that they probably aren’t being “stubborn”; they probably had a WTF! reaction and were initially unfamiliar with what they were looking at. Remember, not everyone is scientifically minded, some people don’t truly parse and “understand” the unit of measure; it’s an abstracted symbol—like a Chinese character—and all they know is it’s different and isn’t the same thing they saw on their speed-test Web screen ten minutes earlier. That would be a signal that we need to go back to Technical Writing 101 and use the units of measure common to that industry to best avoid confusion—even if it’s a bastard child of a unit that breaks rules.
Note this too about how Encyclopedia Britannica handles units: they often don’t use abbreviations and stick with writing a unit of measure out if it isn’t repeated too often in the article. For instance, they might write “256 megabytes” instead of “256 MB”. Clearer you know; not everyone has read up on a subject and become familiar with terminology before going to an encyclopedia. Greg L ( talk) 16:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
In that case, here's my suggestion. Current wording reads
I propose this new bullet, just beneath that one:
Thunderbird2 ( talk) 16:59, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
"Yes, and MB/s and Mbit/s would seem a logical extension of that; hence my suggestion."
So… To Jimp and Thunderbird2. Go to town on this version. Make it something you would sign on to. Greg L ( talk) 21:42, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Click here to edit.
Return to Talk:MOSNUM
Use terminology and symbols commonly employed in the current literature for that subject and level of technicality. When in doubt, use the units of measure, prefixes, unit symbols, number notation, and methods of disambiguation most often employed in reliable periodicals directed to a similar readership.
The objective of technical writing is to communicate with minimal confusion so that readers can learn about a subject and are primed as well as possible to learn even more in their studies elsewhere. There are three important elements in determining what terminology and units of measure are best suited for a given article:
Preference for international units
I tweaked the sentence in Preference for international units section so that it does not appear to involve human height. I also abbreviated foot to ft, as it is suggested elsewhere in the mosnum.— MJCdetroit (yak) 12:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
I removed the "binary prefix" example paragraph. GregL, if you are truly interested in achieving consensus on this "follow current literature" point, you should not object to the removal of such a hotly debated and WP:POINT-y "example." Jeh ( talk) 22:24, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
It seems that the page has settled down a little. A couple of days ago, Greg L invited me (and Jimp) to edit the fifth draft of his ‘Follow current literature’. Since then I’ve been thinking how best to do that. It occurs to me that before we start editing the text it would help if we could agree on some basic principles that we can all adhere to. Below is a list of 4 “baseline principles”, plus a 5th “guiding principle” for dealing with conflicts between the other 4. Principles 1-4 are presented in alphabetical order, with no precedence implied.
The issue of MB vs MiB is bound to come up at some point, so I may as well raise it now (without attempting to solve it though). In this context, I see a conflict between principles 2 and 4. Is this conflict the root cause of the ongoing dispute? How we address that to keep everyone happy I’m not sure, except to note that that is the purpose of principle 5.
Before taking this any further, I would like to gauge how much agreement there is among us about the 5 principles. To this end, please sign below as appropriate.
Thunderbird2 (
talk)
16:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
The list is complete but can be improved by (please suggest minor improvements)
There is a principle missing from the list (please specify)
I disagree with one or more of the principles included in the list (please specify)
space for more detailed comments here ...
When deciding whether an SI unit is familiar, any combination of a familar SI unit and a familiar SI prefix should be considered a familiar unit. Thus, gigagram is familar but picogram is not. -- Gerry Ashton ( talk) 19:05, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm getting the feeling that the examples are causing grief, so I've removed all of them. Do you disagree with any of the principles? Thunderbird2 ( talk) 09:27, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Greg's example of blood pressure is a powerful one. I expect mmHg to be with us for blood pressure measurement long after the QWERTY keyboard is gone—doctors just won't change something this deeply ingrained in their culture. In checking into it, however, I came across something useful as regards disambiguation techniques. I'd like to draw attention to the AMA Manual of Style, Tenth edition (2006). The Tenth edition's FAQ advises a change in this regard, calling for conversion factors to be stated in the article once, either at first use in text, in a "Methods" section, or (for tables or figures) in a legend or footnote. See the "SI Units" para at the link. LeadSongDog ( talk) 14:48, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
I see. Let's try this then:
Thunderbird2 ( talk) 20:08, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Do you think professional publications and professional encyclopedias have rules for selecting units of measure that are this complex (?); a rule-set so complex that you need a sixth (no doubt soon to be seventh) rule on how to arbitrate conflicts within the rule set? How do you think Encyclopedia Britannica settled on using “barrels” for oil production (?), and “cc” for motorcycle and scooter engines (?), and “megabyte” for computer articles, and “milligal” for gravimetry (?), and “mmHg” for blood pressure? Do you think they had to have editorial meetings and engaged in endless and heated arguments over the meaning of a half-dozen+ rules governing the choice? Such a notion is totally absurd.
I have complete confidence that it’s all pretty simple and abundant common sense for other encyclopedias—you can see the simplicity by simply looking at the end result: if it’s an article very particular to the U.S., such as the distance from downtown L.A. to LAX, then the distance is in miles along with a parenthetical disambiguation to kilometers for the many English-language readers who are most familiar with the SI. Otherwise, the preference is to use SI where possible. But if a discipline consistently uses different units of measure (blood pressure in mmHg), then use those units. Why? So that our readers can learn about a subject and are primed as well as possible to learn even more in their studies elsewhere. And so readers can readily converse with others who are knowledgeable in that discipline. Done.
This is just drop-dead simple. It is only complex because you insist on hijacking Wikipedia in a vain effort to promote the adoption of the IEC binary prefixes and the SI in those disciplines that failed to do so. It’s been nearly a decade since the IEC proposed their prefixes and nearly two years since Sarenne ran off and changed hundreds of Wikipedia articles to use them. And still the rest of the world (manufacturers, magazines, computer users, other encyclopedias) isn’t using them to this day. And they won’t another ten years from now. You can try to write “a healthy blood pressure is 160 hPa over 90 hPa” but ten years from now, the medical community will still be using millimeters of mercury. I could handle some editors’ stubbornness if the foundation of their position was somehow remotely grounded in the true reality of the situation.
Please affirm one of the two below declarations so I know whether or not spending all this time responding to your posts is an utter and complete waste of time:
1) I [your name here] still want Wikiipedia to use the IEC prefixes in its general-interest computer-related articles and/or also want to have project-wide, consistent use of the SI system of measurement, even where certain disciplines consistently don’t use the SI. Further, the above six-point list of “common ground” is really a list of attributes I thought were all indisputably virtuous goodliness intended to pave the way for getting my way. Or…
2) I don’t have the objectives mentioned in #1 above, and simply ended up with a half-dozen attributes to consider in choosing units of measure in an attempt to find common ground and because six rules made gobs of sense to me.
Do tell; which is it? I am truly not interested in wasting my time in the name of “finding common ground” if we’re really beating around the bush and there is no common ground on the central point of the dispute. And please, spare me your protestations over how I am demonstrating a lack of “assuming good faith.” I’ve read your arguments on this and other pages for months now and your desires have been consistent and clear from day-one. “Assuming good faith” doesn’t mean I have to “suspend common sense.” Greg L ( talk) 22:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)
Further, the support votes were, without exception, accompanied by calm, reasoned statements along the lines of “makes sense to me & solves a long-standing problem”. Whereas the “oppose” votes were typically truly irrational nonsense such as “this is just a underhanded attempt to deprecate the use of the SI on Wikipedia.” Like other editors have said here, a general consensus had clearly formed and, in part, this was due to the fact that the arguments of the “oppose” element were fallacious. Reasoned arguments simply carry greater weight than do wholesale exagerations.
Let’s simply call a spade a spade. The “support” crowd doesn’t have a burden with our true objective; we simply want to follow how other encyclopedia’s choose units of measure because the reason for doing so addresses an important objective of technical writing. The “oppose” crowd has the uphill battle of having to find an argument that circumvents the inconvenient truth of the matter: that you simply think that when it comes to choosing units of measure, you guys somehow know better than the professional, paid editors at all the general-interest computer magazines and print encyclopedias throughout the world. You want Wikipedia off all on its own using “hectopascals” for blood pressure and “kibibits” for computer chips even though this isn’t how the real world talks and writes. This truth of your position is something that only Headbomb was willing to admit to (see Example of Follow current literature above). The majority here have neither the naive arrogance, nor the propensity to resort to fallacious arguments in a vain attempt to simply get our way. We prefer to believe that the paid professional editors with advance journalism degrees at Encyclopedia Britannica can actually teach us novice hobbyists a thing or two.
As to “not answering my leading questions”, it seems a fairly straightforward question: is your six-point list really a way to see if we have some common ground (?), or are you wasting everyone’s time here because the six points are nothing more than beating around the bush, and there is no common ground on the central point of the dispute? You don’t like it when someone asks this question. I guess, that’s just too bad.
As to your “And please, the spectre of the Evil User Sarenne is pretty tired, don't you think?” I didn’t say Sarenne was evil. I said Sarenne went around and changed a hundred or so Wikipedia articles from the conventional binary prefixes to the IEC prefixes until he was banned for life for all the havoc that created. Is that another inconvenient truth?
Finally, “ Fifth draft” has been provided above for the “oppose” crowd to show what they mean to accomplish here. Either edit it in a realistic fashion that you expect everyone on both sides will be able to sign on to, or edit it so it reflects precisely what you wish you could accomplish. Either way, I’d be happy as a clam. All this “let’s find common ground” business of Thunderbird2’s, with its gamed questions that have had the examples stripped completely the hell out of them so they are ambiguous beyond all reason, is a colossal waste of time. Get to the point! Show what you want in “Fifth draft”. I did it with “ First draft”, “ Suggested tweak”, “ Third, hybrid proposal”, and “ Fourth draft” (which had over a dozen editors working hard on it in good faith to craft); it’s your turn now. Completely revise it for all I care. Just craft a proposal of some sort; that’s not too much to ask. Greg L ( talk) 07:29, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Various replies, more or less in the order of your posts:
Thunderbird2 ( talk) 12:14, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
“ | principle 5 would be follow the example in the literature. MB is not ambiguous when it is disambiguated with the number of bytes and that is a familiar method seen in the article sources. MB disambiguated with MiB uses unfamiliar units and does not follow the example in the article sources. On balance not using MiB is better for the readers because Wikipedia always caters for a general audience. There is a separate Wiki for text book style articles so IEC is not to be used in this Wiki for most of the articles. Judging by modern text books it is clear most do not use IEC either.DavidPaulHamilton (talk) 09:00, 17 May 2008 (UTC) | ” |
but I can't divine a suggested example in that. Could you please clarify what your suggested wording? LeadSongDog ( talk) 23:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
I read things quickly and decided to give it a shot. I tried to rank the principles in priority. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 21:11, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I've incorporated some of your recommendations. I'm still iffy about the conversion thing. If you have a bunch of measures in an article, it would be tedious and annoying to see "A 20 yards (insert X meters) rope, a 25 yard (insert Y meters) plank, a 2 yard stick (Z meters)" etc... If yard is the commonly used unit, then it makes more sense IMO to relate the yard to the meter, than give conversion every time a measure in yard is given (say in American Football).
And no, inches are not modern. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 01:18, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The vast majority of the other editors who worked on “Follow current literature” understand all the above. Whether it’s writing that “the cost of crude is US$128 per barrel,” or “many computers today come stock with two gigabytes of RAM,” that’s the way the real world communicates. What you desire amounts to nothing more than the promotion of the IEC prefixes and the SI in writing about disciplines that currently do not use these units. If it had been established long ago that encyclopedias can quickly foster change in language practices, then this discussion would be a different matter altogether. But that’s simply not the case and never was. The clear majority of the editors here have the wisdom to recognize that notwithstanding what you’d personally like to do, ten years from now, the world will still be discussing crude oil production and commerce in terms of barrels, and computer memory gigabytes. So please desist with declarations of what a “megabyte means”; that notion has been thoroughly debated here and in other Wikipedia venues and completely dismissed by all but some stubborn holdouts. Even if you don orange robes and set fire to yourself over this, your argument will continue to be soundly rejected as false; the clear consensus (those editors with honest and reasoned arguments) is that the wise thing to do is reject and ignore such nonsense. Just because you insist that ‘red is blue’ doesn’t make it so. The consensus is that the proper way to communicate to readers is to follow the practices consistently used in current literature on that subject—as does Encyclopedia Britannica and other professionally edited encyclopedias. Anything else amounts to nothing more than rejecting the practices of other professionally edited encyclopedias and makes Wikipedia appear as if it has been hijacked by foolish, idealistic young people who’ve read way too many sci-fi books. Greg L ( talk) 17:45, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Greg, Headbomb is trying to help here. Feel free to criticise what he or anyone else writes, but kindly refrain from making personal attacks in the future. You may wish to read through your last post and consider rephrasing it. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 17:57, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
There is no bright-line rule about what constitutes a personal attack as opposed to constructive discussion, but some types of comments are never acceptable:
I'm perfectly aware of the status of the IEC units debate on wikipedia. I'm stating my position, I'm not imposing it, so please don't insinuate that I am doing so or saying that I should desist from doing so. I have never changed one green box to this effect, never changed or reverted any article using MB instead of MiB or vice-versa, I have not edited the MOS binary prefixes section, and I have never presumed that my position had consenus. This is my position, and if it gains consensus (which it probably won't), will land on the MOS. If it doesn't gain consensus (the likeliest scenario), then then it'll stay in the talk pages. So please stop what rant you're going on right now and let's get back to the real issues — is the third attempt a ste stop in the right direction? Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 19:03, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not trying to help? What the hell has all my time here been for then? I've kept my cool far longer than I could have, and I still have my cool, but don't push your luck. I'll remind you that you thanked me several times for many of my contributions here. I wonder why suddenly I'm "not trying to help" when about a week ago you said this of me:
I think you're just pissed that some people think that IEC prefixes have a place on Wikipedia that is not solely on the IEC convention related articles, and that another user who thinks that IEC prefixes have a place on Wikipedia concurred, and that I've been the latest scapegoat of all your feeling on the IEC prefixes issue. While we're not debating the current binary prefixes policy, the fact remains that if I and three millions editors did push for a rational use of IEC prefixes, and make a strong enough case to gain consensus, then wikipedia (including you) will need to comply, else you would be no better than what you accuse us to be (radical extremists who are in the clear minority). But that is not what I, or anyone else from what I can see, is trying to push for here. You're the only one that flips out on IEC prefixes anytime a computer related prefix comes up. The binary prefixes section has not been modified and is not being debated by anyone at this moment in time, so unless you want that debate to be re-opened, stop flipping out every two seconds.
I would suggest that you take an hour-long break before posting that someone is not trying to help. It's not just me that you target, but you did the same thing with Jimp, calling his viewpoint that of a "ridiculous extremist movement" when he raised valid concerns. I too agreed that the concerns were not big enough to stop the greenbox from going forward, even if the policy would need to tackle them head on in the future. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 21:24, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Now imagine that the whole of section 4 were to be removed, and replaced with this structure:
There’s a lot of flesh to be added, but let’s not get bogged down with details yet. Just assume for now that the wording and examples to be used embody the principles in a form you find acceptable.
The question is: Would it work like this? Thunderbird2 ( talk) 21:09, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree that section 4 should be rewritten entirely. However, I would organize things this way:
Essentially removing the Follow current literature' section since the third attempt covers it, and relocating the Unnecessary vagueness section somewhere more appropriate.
Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 21:37, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree about relocating Unnecessary Vagueness, but would prefer not to give special treatment to Binary Prefixes at this early stage. In other words, let's aim for a generic treatment of all units first. If that doesn't work we can always add things later. But we should aim to keep it simple. What do others think? Thunderbird2 ( talk) 21:49, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
It's not that I want to give Binary prefixe a special treatment, I would looooooooove for that debate to be settled. I feel that the third attempt covers them completely (3rd point). There is consistent use of MB in the sense of MB in hard drive makers, and consistent use of MB as MiB in ram makers. So use MB in each and give conversion to modern unit. 1MB = 1 000 000 bytes in the first case, and 1MB = 1 048 576 bytes in the second, with a possible mention that this is really a MiB and that using MB is a misnomer). However, considering the long-ass debate about this, not mentionning the binary prefixes explicitly would just create more problems than we already have. Plus we could specify something like use MB for both, but always disambiguate, and link MB to MB in the first case and MB to MiB in the second case. Or something like that.
And if wikipedia would put its pants on, it would require MB to mean MB everytime MB is used, and purged itself of all MB that means MiB and place a "MB vs MiB" box at the top of every article that uses either so users are aware that MB means MB and that MiB means MiB before reading articles. This is not a case of not following current literature to impose house rules to the world. It is a case of the current literature being retarded and that we HAVE to use house rules so the world understands what is meant. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 22:19, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I don't care what is the result of the binary prefix discussion, I'm just saying that's how I would do things. Whatever's agreed upon will go in the binary prefix section of MoS. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 12:54, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
According to WP:Multilingual statistics, the articles on en: are now 24% of the total in WP. I don't see much in this discussion that reflects that. Ease of translation matters, whether it is done by humans or machines. I would therefore renew my earlier plea for measures that facilitate conversion into other languages. This doesn't just pertain to dates and unit names, it also comes up in other areas. I routinely use {{In lang|fr}} to render (in French) instead of (French) in citations. When pasted into a translation of the article, it automagically renders something readable in that language. This is a good thing. We should encourage it. This is why I want unit names and date names to be rendered rather than simple text. The servers can cope with it. Failing that, a wikilink to unit articles on first or isolated usage is assistive to human translators But forming guidance here without taking other languages into consideration is grotesquely wasteful of translators time. LeadSongDog ( talk) 20:16, 18 May 2008 (UTC)
Before we get any further. I'd just like to note ... just in case, y'know. That the thousand-byte kilobyte, the million-byte megabyte, the thousand-million-byte gigabyte, the billion-byte terabyte, etc. are not and never were SI units. But we all know that, right? Sorry to waste everyone's time. JIMp talk· cont 04:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I found "3.1×10−6 s–2" on the page. Look carefully and you might notice that the first minus sign is somewhat higher and longer than the second (of course, this may depend on your font, browser, etc.). I changed it to "3.1×10−6 s−2". What's going on? The second minus sign had actually been an en-dash. Whilst an en-dash might make a satisfactory minus sign when all by itself, whenever it appears along side a real minus sign the result is pretty damn ugly. For comparison's sake:
So, there's one disadvantage with allowing the en-dash as a minus sign. Is there any advantage? I can't think of one. If not, I propose to rewrite the text to allow only minus signs as minus signs. JIMp talk· cont 07:55, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
It's plain as day to me using IE on XP and Vista & using default WP font too ... or else I wouldn't have spotted it. JIMp talk· cont 15:40, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Does this make it clearer: "3.1×10−2 s–2" ? All I did was change the 6 to a 2 in Jimp's example. The relative position of the two and minus sign are clearly different (using XP + firefox). Thunderbird2 ( talk) 16:00, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
We definitely don't want the hyphen as a minus sign (except as parser function input, e.g. the e=-2
above) but the hyphen, along with the em-dash are already ruled out. I'm talking about the minus sign (−
) vs the en-dash (&endash;
). An article might cheerfully be going along consistantly using en-dashes for minus signs then along comes a template (like {{val}} or {{convert}}) which uses the real minus sign and upsets the happy harmony. The editors will have to go through an fix the article up again, better to have used minus signs all along. I'm only suggesting the rule be simplified to "use the minus sign for minus signs".
JIMp
talk·
cont 18:10, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
What I see is as Woodstone describes, those en-dashes are all joined up, not so the minus signs.
JIMp
talk·
cont
18:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm afraid I don't know how to say this without making you seem ... um ... actually when you code {{val}}'s e
parameter with a hyphen it gives a minus sign which is distinct from an en-dash. That it won't work with an en-dash is due to the presence of a parser function in the template code. The en-dash (–) is better than the hyphen (-). The hyphen is one thing we don't want. I'm not suggesting we use it. I'm suggesting we use the minus sign (−). Copy, paste and [Ctrl][F] each of those dashes and see what you hit.
With hyphen: | 1.23 × 10-19 kg |
With an en-dash: | 1.23 × 10–19 kg |
With a minus sign: | 1.23 × 10−19 kg |
Open an edit window, go down to the tool box and you'll see "Insert:–—…...±−×..." the first is the en-dash, the minus sign is between the "±" and the "×". JIMp talk· cont 19:07, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
{{delimitnum|1.23||-19|kg}} (with a hard-coded hyphen): 1.23 × 10-19 kg
{{delimitnum|1.23||&endash;19|kg}} (with a hard-coded en-dash): 1.23 × 10–19 kg
{{delimitnum|1.23||&emdash;19|kg}} (with a hard-coded em-dash): 1.23 × 10—19 kg
{{val|1.23|e=-19|u=kg}} (with a typed hyphen because {val} doesn’t accept hard-coding): 1.23×10−19 kg
{{val|1.23|e=–19|u=kg}} (with a typed en-dash): Error in {{
val}}: exponent parameter (e) is not a valid number.
{{val|1.23|e=—19|u=kg}} (with a typed em-dash): Error in {{
val}}: exponent parameter (e) is not a valid number.
I haven’t looked at {val}’s code, but it looks like if you use a hyphen (what editors would naturally do), it substitutes an en-dash. No? Try looking at this page using Safari. Greg L ( talk) 19:16, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
No, it substitutes a minus sign (which is neither an en-dash nor a hyphen). I know that there are differences between the templates (I have made a minor edit to {{val}} & {{delimitnum}}, as you know is the template I was going to write if we couldn't get a parser function version). What happened to the talk of merging them? JIMp talk· cont 19:32, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I just did an extreme zoom on the minus and en-dash and there is a difference (although incredibly small). See for yourself:
From top to bottom: dash, endash, minus, emdash
-
–
−
—
So I suggest that minus signs are used when minus signs are meant, including in the val template.
Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 19:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Four different beasts.
hyphen: | - |
en-dash: | – |
minus sign: | − |
em-dash: | — |
Copy & paste them into a [Ctrl][F] and see what matches you find. JIMp talk· cont 19:43, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I do know that {val} isn’t returning the ultra-short sign and I like it. If you guys do too, then I’m happy. Apparently on Safari, the Unicode minus sign uses something the same length as an en-dash. What do you guys see? Greg L ( talk) 19:48, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
I use Firefox and the minus is slightly shorter than the endash. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 20:02, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
Well I think it should flat out say that when you want to use a minus sign, use a minus sign −, not a hyphen, and not the endash (as the MOS currently explicitly allows). There will be no edit war on this, so while it won't change the world, the users who refer to the MOS will now use minus for the minus sign when they used the endash. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 21:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)
In generating mathematical expressions, typing a common hyphen (-) from the keyboard to denote the mathematic symbol ‘minus’ (−) is not considered ‘incorrect.’ However for denoting the ‘minus’ symbol, the true Unicode ‘minus’ character (U+2212) is conveniently available on the Insert palette and its use is encouraged and is considered as the preferred symbol in mathematical expressions—particularly for use in subscripts and superscripts.
I don't mean to be argumentative but the above is a little wordy. The current text states as follows.
For a negative sign or subtraction operator, use a minus sign (−), input by clicking on it in the insert box beneath the edit window or by keying in −, or an en dash (see En dashes); do not use a hyphen, unless writing code, or an em dash.
I propose to change it to the following.
For a negative sign or subtraction operator, use a minus sign (−), input by keying in − or by clicking on it in the insert box beneath the edit window; do not use a hyphen (unless writing code), an en dash or an em dash.
Good point about the editors who have yet to get up to speed on Wikipedia ... what proportion of those have heard of an en dash? And if they're unaware of the MOS anyway, no harm's done. JIMp talk· cont 00:05, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
There's no one is guilty of elitism here, people will keep using the hyphen to write a minus sign for all eternity, however, the MOS should not condone the use of a hyphen in place of the minus sign. The only thing having this in the MOS do is advertise the minus sign as existing, and those who care will use the minus sign instead of hyphens. Minus signs will spread over Wikipedia, and those who don't read the MOS will learn that minus signs exist through editing, they will see in their watchlist that ndashes were substituted for minus signs when minus signs were meant and many will adapt. And thus wikipedia will have greater uniformity. It can never be perfect, because not everyone follows the MOS, and some just won't care to use a minus instead of a dash. But it's not because there are some who will not use the minus that we should be lenient in the standards or refuse to take step fowards.
Headbomb (
ταλκ ·
κοντριβς)
00:08, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Changes have been made throughout the MOS to reflect this. No en dash instead of minus signs. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 00:40, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Logic would dictate that people use minus signs when they mean a minus sign. We don't mean x raised to the power of en dash 2, but x raised to the power of minus 2, so why write the former? As for practical reasons, when using templates (who usually go with minus signs since that is what is meant), the minus and the en dash are vertically unaligned. See 2.234×10−4m2kg–4 vs. 2.234×10−4m2kg−4. Also the en dash overlaps with some characters at certain zoom levels (compare the 4s and you'll see that the dashes overlaps while the minus doesn't (I use firefox in 1280x800 )).
Headbomb (
ταλκ ·
κοντριβς)
01:55, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Someone should make something equivalent to − for that sign, and include in in the insert palette. It's a useful sign, and it should be availible to editors. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 00:37, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps this isn't the place, but ongoing accusation of sockpuppetry have been brought up many times now. Could someone verify that DPH is or isn't a sock? At first I thought people accusing DPH of being socks were themselves socks (since they didn't use registered names). But someone (Jimp? Tony1?) just mentionned that DPH showed a unusually high understanding of wikipedia for a newbie. So I've checked DPH's contribution pages and the first two weeks of contribution were exclusively on the MOS related pages. This seems rather fishy. Who starts an account to debate binary prefixes on the MOS? Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 02:34, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
Okay, so using edit summaries isn't any sort of proof of anything. Note, though, how my first few hundered edit summaries are devoid of Wikijargon whereas DPH's contain stuff like " The other user is edit warring", " remove tag added by a completely new single purpose account", " the new accounts are vandals", etc. (I especially like the ones about the new accounts). Yes, my first edits as a registered user were on time-zone and measurement articles (the SI and time zones exist outside of Wikipedia) ... not in the thick of some policy debate. I certainly was not so bold as a newcomer to take it upon myself to guard policy pages assuming to understand what is meant by "consensus" on Wikipedia. JIMp talk· cont 08:15, 20 May 2008 (UTC)
The logic of it all just blows me away.
Oh the logic incredible! JIMp talk· cont 00:38, 21 May 2008 (UTC)
Blocked David Paul Hamilton has been blocked as a suspected sock of Fnagaton. JIMp talk· cont 00:19, 27 May 2008 (UTC)
With greater specificity: DPH has been blocked for being a sock and it is suspected as being a sock of Fnagaton. Greg L ( talk) 00:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)