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The guideline recommends "1.2 in × 1.8 in" over "1.2 × 1.8 in", fair engough, but what if the "×" is spelt out as "by" and/or the "in" (or whatever unit) is spelt out as "inch(es)"? "1.2 by 1.8 inches" would seem quite normal to me, "1.2 inches by 1.8 inches" being perhaps a little over the top but not wrong. How about "1.2 × 1.8 inches" verses "1.2 inches × 1.8 inches"? How about "1.2 by 1.8 in" verses "1.2 in by 1.8 in"? I sort of feel it's a question of "×" vs "by" more than "in" vs "inch(es)". Thoughts anyone ... JIMp talk· cont 07:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I would advise against writing like that when you write it in words. No one writes "a 2 by 24 millimeter section", so I don't see why one should write "a 2 by 4 inches wood plank". One speaks of 2 by 4's, or 2x4's but that's because grammar-wise it's the name of the thing. When giving specifications, it should be "1.2 in x 1.8 in" or "1.2 inches by 1.8 inches", the x being used when units are in unit form and the by when units are fully spelled out. IMO. Headbomb ( talk · contribs) 14:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, a 2 by 4's actual dimensions are 38×89mm, see Dimensional lumber - which should probably be linked from instances of "two by four". -- Random832 ( contribs) 20:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
What on earth is wrong with "1.2 × 1.8 in" and "50 × 100 mm"? Shorter, easier to pick up, and absolutely unambiguous. TONY (talk) 14:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
There's a missing unit in the first number, so it could be anything. 1.2 ft x 1.8 in; 1.2 in x 1.8 in, 1.2 yards x 1.2 inches etc. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 19:02, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I am almost 100% sure that phone numbers should NOT be added to Wikipedia, though the creator of this page seems to disagree. I want to delete them (stop me if I'm wrong) but each time I am stopped. I would appreciate it if someone could point our anything at all relevant to my point that I can share with said user as I can find none myself -- Maurice45 ( talk) 19:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I see that Fnagaton has flagrantly abused his role as a sysop by closing the AN/I on Omegatron with this POV summary:
This discussion has been archived after Tony's attempt to misrepresent and to make edits after the section has been archived. Tony's attempted bad faith misrepresentation and the subsquent refutation is now archived.
I was not aware that the page had been closed when I made whatever edit he's referring to. But there is a serious accusation of "misrepresentation", and again "bad faith misrepresentatio" that I dispute; in its focus on me alone, it is POV.
Can anyone advise me where I can make an official complaint about this? It seems a denial of natural justice that he thinks he can close a page with such a POV summary to which I have no right of reply, the content of which I think a lot of people would dispute. I think this is sysop-resignation material. [1] TONY (talk) 14:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
It was a complicated month, so I hope I've captured, as simply as possible, the substantive changes. Please notify any issues on the talk page. TONY (talk) 15:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
:Tony, did you mean this talk page? I am assuming so, and I do have one minor comment, which is that in SI-speak, kgs does not mean kilogram-second (that would be kg·s or kg s).
Thunderbird2 (
talk) 16:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC) Comment moved to the correct talk page
Thunderbird2 (
talk)
10:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
User:Omegatron has given the bugzilla (MediaWiki) developers a proposal to automatically avoid wrapping lines between numbers and certain abbreviations, such as cm or m. The link is https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13619. He's not proposing that they insert a no-break space character, simply that the html rendering not wrap the line in those places. Does anyone have anything to add or subtract from the list of scientific symbols at User:Bobblewik/monobook.js/unitformatter.js? - Dan Dank55 ( talk) 03:24, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Centralized discussion: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#No-break_spaces_discussion_continues_at_bugzilla — Omegatron ( talk) 17:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree the discussion should be in one place at a time ... nothing was going on there when I posted this :) Let's keep it there for now, but input would be appreciated, we don't get to take our concerns to bugzilla every day, and this one is important (to me). - Dan Dank55 ( talk) 19:53, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
This line
txt.value = txt.value.replace(/º/g, '°');
is indiscriminate. It will replace instances even where the Ordinal indicator character is actually intended.
txt.value = txt.value.replace(/centigrade/gi, 'Celsius');
replaces all instances of the word "centigrade" in any context. "The Celsius temperature scale was previously known as the centigrade scale." would become "The Celsius temperature scale was previously known as the Celsius scale."
I'm also concerned in general about the indiscriminate behavior of this script, as applies to quotations, URLs, etc.. -- Random832 ( contribs) 19:58, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
User:SkyLined is working on a template {{ val}}that'll fix this. Right now it's buggy (problem with 0s and the max number of digits mostly) though, so it's hard to recommend as if, but having wikipedia automattically replace anything indiscriminately is a BAD, BAD, BAD idea.
Examples: 123123.123234 MeV/c2, 1.22(35)×10−12 s Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 13:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
No no no. The Mediawiki feature changes regular spaces into non-breaking spaces for display only. Currently, if you type « something in guillemets », the spaces between the guillemets and the words are converted into nonbreaking spaces when the page is rendered (see the wiki source and HTML source for the example I just typed). We are proposing that this be extended to units and dashes.
This will not add spaces where none previously existed. It will not affect the article's source code. All it will do is prevent numbers and units from breaking lines. False positives can be fixed by changing the regexp and nothing will be harmed by it. The worst thing that could possibly happen is two words not wrapping when they should. The link to Bobblewik's script is just an example of the kinds of units it could recognize, since my simple proposal to just change any instance of <number><space><letter> was rejected. — Omegatron ( talk) 16:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
{ Quick link to version on MOSNUM}
The following green-div section is a “live” version for making proposals on. Please don’t do edit warring here. Discuss your proposals and edits in Discussion of “Fourth draft”, below.
Let’s not treat the fourth draft as so sacrosanct; that’s what this is here for: a sandbox. If someone has what they think is a good idea, toss it out there for others to look at. And don’t be defensive if someone replaces it with something else; we always have the red-div for reference. If someone is considering trying an edit they really know would be unhelpful and they know full well that the edit would be strongly opposed, don’t bother. Give & take. If someone has what they think is a truly bright idea that will gain consensus, add it to the below green-div ASAP. If everyone embraces the philosophy that they will only make edits intended to be one-and-a-half steps forward and only a half step backward (greater consensus with each move), this may go smoother. That’s my 2¢. Greg L ( talk) 01:07, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Follow current literature
Use terminology and symbols commonly employed in the current literature for that subject and level of technicality. When in doubt, use the units of measure, prefixes, unit symbols, number notation, and methods of disambiguation most often employed in reliable periodicals directed to a similar readership.
The objective of technical writing is to communicate with minimal confusion so that readers can learn about a subject and are primed as well as possible to learn even more in their studies elsewhere. There are three important elements in determining what terminology and units of measure are best suited for a given article:
Preference for international units
Discipline-specific practices
Level of difficulty (Do not write over the heads of the readership)
Clearly, it is unrealistic to expect that wording for Fourth draft, above, can be found that will make all parties to this discussion happy; some editors’ views are polar opposites of another. The best we can do here is track how editors feel about this and endeavor to maximize the total score of support. Any edits that yields more points of support than it takes away should be considered as progress. Greg L ( talk) 21:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
At 8:3 in favor and no new “oppose” votes in over two days, there is clearly a general consensus in support of this guideline. Further, the arguments of the “oppose” votes simply are either in the minority, or are fallacious and can’t realistically be considered as a legitimate basis for maintaining a {dispute} tag, which has been removed. Greg L ( talk) 21:33, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
DEGREE OF GENERAL CONSENSUS | |||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Editor | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
Dank55 | |||||
DavidPaulHamilton | x | ||||
Denniss | |||||
Fnagaton | X [1] | ||||
Gene Nygaard | |||||
Gerry Ashton | X | ||||
Greg L | X [2] | ||||
Headbomb | x [3] [4] | ||||
Jeh | x [5] | ||||
Jim77742 | |||||
Jimp | × [6] | ||||
LeadSongDog | |||||
Lightmouse | x | ||||
Mahjongg | X [7] | ||||
Marty Goldberg | |||||
MJCdetroit | X [8] | ||||
Pmanderson | |||||
Rilak | X [9] | ||||
SWTPC6800 | X | ||||
Thunderbird2 | X [10] | ||||
TONY | X | ||||
New editor… | |||||
New editor… | |||||
New editor… | |||||
New editor… |
Vote comments
This section is intended to provide a forum for rebutting and commenting on the above vote comments. This is in hopes of keeping the above Vote comments short and pithy. Greg L ( talk) 21:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Tony's vote:
I was kinda surprised to have a vote at 0 when we had three at 4, and I wondered how in the world could someone be in complete opposition to this. So I decided to review Tony's comment to see what his objections were. Here are his objections:
And then out of the blue we have very explosive remarks from someone who up until this point appeared to have been arguing constructively with concern that consensus was reached etc... remarks such as
Continuing with some more objections:
So unless I'm missing something here, perhaps Tony gave a reason for his complete opposition but someone deleted it, perhaps the he clicked on the submit button and subsequently X'd his window before the submit had a chance to go through, I think Tony made a mistake and X'ed a checkbox he didn't mean to X. It would be doing a disfavor to all the other editors who worked hard on this proposal, including Tony, to count his vote as it stands now. I'm sure Tony will check the checkbox he meant to check very soon, or will provide us with the reasons of his opposition. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 15:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
To Tony (and Lightmouse): Let’s set aside issues over how this guideline got here. Let’s set aside the details of the examples used to support the broad principle. The policy in its totality, basically boils down to this:
To Jimp: So… when you wrote in your vote summary “a very problematic proposal which could well lead to many arguements and inconsistencies along with an influx of perplexing non-standard terms, units and abbreviations”, you must mean that it will lead to “inconsistencies” worse that what we have now, where one computer article on Wikipedia uses “MiB” and other uses “MB”; a problem this policy addresses. Or by “arguments”, you seem to be implying that the current situation, where there are ten archives (and counting) dedicated just to bickering over the IEC prefixes and that is a good thing. Is that right? But by “perplexing, non-standard terms”, I assume you must mean some editors’ continued use of units of measure no one is familiar with, which this policy addresses. Is that right? Or is it that you really like these unwise practices but you just can’t find a rational argument to oppose an obviously good policy? Greg L ( talk) 18:36, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
And to all: This isn’t some sort of contest where opposing editors game the system with zero points trying to keep the point count low and obstruct progress. You can’t obstruct progress; it will go forward regardless, along with those who are have recently hopped on board and have been working in good faith on this. The point system was added here to serve as a gauge of progress. It is already understood that some editors simply think the IEC prefixes are a great idea (even though the rest of the real world doesn’t use them) and they’ll never come on board. It is already recognized that some editors are so smitten with the SI, they oppose the use of non-SI units even though they are standard in the discipline and the BIPM approved their use with the SI. We understand that there will simply be no bringing these editors on board. If opposing editors don’t go with the flow and try work collaboratively with the rest of us to develop wording that better puts Wikipedia in alignment with the rest of the world’s encyclopedias and books, then you’re going to miss out on an opportunity to help craft the final product that goes to MOSNUM for good. Greg L ( talk) 18:36, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
In every instance I can envision Jimp, all we will be doing is bringing Wikipedia in line 1) with real-world usage and literature in a field, 2) with the way professional encyclopedias like World Book and Encyclopedia Britannica already do it. That means “cc” for Honda and Suzuki motorcycles, “barrels” for crude oil production, and “megabyte” for computers. In many cases, Wikipedia is already doing the right thing in “going with the flow.” In others, like “megabyte” we’ve currently got an untenable situation where some articles go with the flow of real-world usage while still other articles put Wikipedia in the position of being the only place around by using terms like “mebibyte” in general-interest computer articles. Further, battles have raged continually for years from the moment that unwise practice first began. This marks the beginning of the end for that practice and is the beginning of consistently keeping Wikipedia in line with the practices observed by professional, paid editors at the real, print encyclopedias. As long as the editors here take a good-faith approach to following the guideline, disputes will be settled faster and much more rationally from hereon.
As for a “lack of consensus”, that’s not the case. Francis Schonken, an uninvolved administrator editor who
works on Wikipedia policy issues long ago (even before this latest vote) stated as follows: “Discussion [now primarily] seems to be style improvements of the wording (and "too long"/"too short" kind of comments) - nothing substantive to the core of the matter of this being a useful idea to be added to mosnum. Yes the procedure was somewhat unusual. Nothing inappropriate or whatever though, congratulations!”
Greg L (
talk)
03:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
The minority “oppose” element that objects to Follow current literature use arguments like “it opens the door to…”, and “influx of perplexing non-standard…”, and “willy-nilly…”. These arguments are specious and do not withstand the sanitizing scrutiny of the majority of the editors here. There is clearly a general consensus on this issue, and the “support” editors have leaned over backwards to give a full and fair hearing and to solicit the input from those who had anything remotely approaching a constructive suggestion or addressable concern. Greg L ( talk) 01:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
{ Quick link to “Copy from current MOSNUM”}
I would give SI or unit accepted with SI preference when writing an overview of many topics that do not use the same units. An example of that would be an article North American oil importations. Since US uses barrels, Mexico uses [insert Mexican unit here] and Canada uses m3, when uniting the three in one, give preference to SI units, even if the US article is written in barrels and the Mexican article is written in [insert Mexican units here]. Headbomb ( talk · contribs) 19:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Add "unless there is a predominant international usage for the non-SI units." to what I just said. What I say may not apply to oil imports, but you get the idea. Headbomb ( talk · contribs) 19:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I guess adding what I wrote would be kind redundant. Headbomb ( talk · contribs) 19:34, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
How do you read it to do that? It recommends against giving SI primary position when, as with bbl, some other unit is customary, but that's all. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:43, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I would have thought Preference for modern units (SI) and all the examples of engine displacements would address any possible ambiguity in this regard. If your feel that a fair, honest, straightforward interpretation (no hidden strings assumed) can be construed as somehow forbidding parenthetical conversions to the SI, then let’s fix it. Note that the current wording says “Parenthetical conversions should be given where appropriate and should generally also follow the practices in current literature on that subject unless there is good reason to do otherwise.” There are so many examples—besides oil—that could be added but things would get cluttered awfully fast. I would think the general principal of Follow current literature should suffice. Greg L ( talk) 19:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
The phrase “Saudi Arabia exported 9.0 million barrels of crude” from the fourth draft does not contain a conversion to SI units, thus implying there should be no such conversion. Also, the forth draft says "'a gravity gradient of 3.1 µGal/cm', not 'a gravity gradient of 3.1×10−6 s–2'", which implies that if a unit that is metric but neither SI nor accepted for use with SI is used, it is incorrect to provide a conversion to the appropriate SI unit. I suggest the draft be immediately updated to show any acceptable conversion, and a statement that conversions other than those shown in the examples are incorrect. Otherwise it is difficult to judge just what conversions the draft is, or is not, advocating. -- Gerry Ashton ( talk) 19:59, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone here know how current periodicals on these subjects handles these two conversions? Or how Encyclopedia Britannica and other professional encyclopedias handle this issue. Or how a really general-interest, English-language periodical like Newsweek would handle it barrels of oil? I don’t know the answer to how the Canadian-version of Newsweek handles barrels of oil, but I would argue that if even they don’t disambiguate to cubic meters, then doing so here wouldn’t be appropriate. In the case of gravimetry (gals), the unit SI-equivalent (“reciprocal seconds squared”) wouldn’t found anywhere but here and is a really hard unit to get one’s mind around. Just linking to the linked gal/cm link and reading that it is a centimeter per second squared of acceleration for each centimeter of elevation is all that is required to properly educate the reader and prepare them for their studies elsewhere. Why teach them a hard-to-understand unit they wouldn’t encounter in the real world? This issue cuts precisely to the heart of the discussion: to follow current literature and not run off doing our own thing promoting the adoption of the SI when it doesn’t really “clarify” anything for anyone. Greg L ( talk) 20:10, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
As Mencken said, "For every problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, obvious, and wrong." Attempting to say what exactly should be done in a bulletpoint is one of these. No bulletpoint is complex enough to fit the universe; but
would be a good start. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:31, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Please don't waste your time defending barrels of oil or gal/cm. Since these are examples, they should represent what to do in a wide variety of similar cases, and readers shouldn't have to be gravity or petroleum experts to understand the examples. Consider the gravity example: a non-SI unit that is accepted for use with SI in some circumstances. Another such unit is the astronomical unit. The absence of a conversion for gals implies that one shouldn't provide a conversion for astronomical units either. If the reasons for not providing a conversions for gals can't be understood by anyone lacking a degree in physics, it's useless as an example. -- Gerry Ashton ( talk) 20:25, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I now see those bullets. Thanks. Will they be put in a green box as a proposal on this page? Lightmouse ( talk) 20:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Has your proposal got support of anyone besides yourself? Lightmouse ( talk) 20:46, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
What is a stub? Lightmouse ( talk) 20:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I am getting confused now just when I thought I was beginning to understand you better. A stub article is an article that happens to contain few words. Are you saying that your text in bullet form is a proposal that happens to contain few words? Lightmouse ( talk) 21:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Let us deal with the bullet first. Work on the example can come second. Lightmouse ( talk) 21:40, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks MJCdetroit. I’ll go revise the fourth draft per your teachings. We’ll see if that’s “one-and-a-half steps forward” or backwards ;-). Greg L ( talk) 06:29, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
As for lightyears: Well, in current literature you see those converted to kilometers and miles all the time. Ergo, in keeping with follow current literature, editors should convert lightyears parenthetically where appropriate. Simple. Why is this being made so complex? Wikipedia is not the private reserve of editors to use as a soap box to promote the adoption of the SI in hopes of changing the way the world makes measurements and how people communicate those measurements.
The gree-div basically says this: Wikipedia prefers international systems of measurement unless the subject is a discipline that consistently does otherwise. Usually, a Wikipedia editor will be sufficiently expert in the subject to know what units are used in an industry; a Suzuki motorcycle enthusiast knows that it’s a “450 cc engine.” If there is doubt for some reason, look to current literature. The motorcycle enthusiast will have zero problem demonstrating to some kookie SI fanatic what is the proper way to denote a Suzuki engine and will have the backing of MOSNUM when the feathers fly. Greg L ( talk) 23:04, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
LeadSongDog: Your edit suggestion (via strike-text) to delete the entire “Level of difficulty (Do not write over the heads of the readership)” section probably isn’t an edit that could reasonably be considered as ‘one-and-a-half steps forward and only a half-step backwards.’ In your edit summary, you wrote “Strike whole Level of difficulty para - doesn't belong here.” I would argue that it is very much part of the central issue; and on two counts no less: 1) The entire section is about “Follow current literature” and the Level of difficulty sub-section clearly is about precisely that very issue. And 2) the paragraph also pertains squarely to the choice of units.
You also added a hidden editors note alongside the struck text that said “<!-- This is a generality for all writing that shouldn't be buried in a dates and numbers guideline. -->”. However, as experienced editors, we’ve all seen numerous instances where novice editors, perhaps a little too anxious to apply the power of scientific notation, for instance, have employed the practice inappropriately. Your describing this advise as a “generality” is accurate; it is common sense. But just because it’s common sense, Wikipedia has the extra challenge that absolutely anyone can be an editor on Wikipedia; the fundamentals need to be spelled out so these editors get the “aha” of the basics and so disputes can be settled as easily as possible. Greg L ( talk) 19:19, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
This particular paragraph (Level of difficulty—Do not write over the heads of the readership) that you’ve said is a “generality for all writing”, is a specific guideline to help editors better understand the nuances of choosing units of measure. We’ve been discussing units of measure here for a long time and it is difficult even for us to agree on what it says ( {1} {2} ). It can be much more difficult for a new editor to divine what Wikipedia guidelines are regarding the units of measure that should be used in articles. When you throw in a new editor’s bias or personal desire (“scientific notation is way-cool”), editors can—and frequently do—do the wrong thing. The last paragraph of Follow current literature provides extra guidance to help reduce occurrences of this.
As far as your statement that this last paragraph should be on MOS, and not “buried in MOSNUM”, I would counter that it clearly should be in both. The “numbers” section has a Main tag directing readers here to MOSNUM. The principle should be mentioned on MOS for those readers who are disinclined to click on the Main tag to come here as well as here to ensure editors are properly provided this guidance. Given that this particular paragraph’s wording is common sense, good advise, is relatively uncontroversial, and has wide support, it makes no sense to delete it now. When things have settled down, it can always be removed later if it becomes clear that it serves no purpose whatsoever. I rather doubt, however, that this will prove to be the case. Greg L ( talk) 15:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
I think the sentence "Wikipedia's mission is to..." makes a valid point in the original version, but that "preference for international units" in the fourth-draft version is more encyclopædic in tone than "preference for modern units." Other than that, both versions seem fine to me. As for whether there is a "consensus"– clearly, there is none. Instead of the current "This page's designation as a policy or guideline is disputed or under discussion" template, however, is there one that is less obtrusive (e.g., without a big red question mark), that maybe says something like "this guideline is currently under active development. Please visit the talk page to view the discussion"? 69.140.152.55 ( talk) 03:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
My local library has the Encyclopedia Britannica Online Edition and patrons can access it from their home computers. The Britannica articles have word links to other topics just like Wikipedia. I looked up motorcycle and found a 900 word articles. Here is a paragraph that covers engine displacement. It looks like the "follow current literature" proposal. Note the conversion of fuel economy.
Motorcycles are produced with both two-stroke- and four-stroke-cycle engines and with up to four cylinders. Most are air-cooled, though a few are water-cooled. Engines are generally limited to displacements of about 1,800 cc. The smallest designs, termed mopeds (from “motor pedal”), have very small engines (50 cc) with fuel economies of as much as 2.4 litres per 100 km (100 miles per gallon). Such units are not permitted on limited-access public roads because of their low speed capability. In order of increasing power capacity and engine displacements, the other five classifications are child bikes, trail bikes, road bikes, touring bikes, and racing bikes. A subcategory of racing bikes is known as superbikes. These are motorcycles that displace more than 900 cc and in which the seat is tilted forward so that the rider is hunched over the frame, creating a more aerodynamic profile.
motorcycle. (2008). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 7, 2008, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online Library Edition: http://www.library.eb.com/eb/article-64093
This quote from the petroleum article shows oil measured in barrels. Also note the large number does not use scientific notation.
The discovery that transformed Saudi Arabia into a leading oil country was the Al-Ghawar field. Discovered in 1948, this field has proved to be the world's largest, containing 82,000,000,000 barrels.
petroleum. (2008). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 8, 2008, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online Library Edition: http://www.library.eb.com/eb/article-50724
This quote is from the gravitation article.
Because gravity changes are far less than 1 metre per second per second, it is convenient to have a smaller unit for relative measurements. The gal (named after Galileo) has been adopted for this purpose; a gal is one-hundredth metre per second per second. The unit most commonly used is the milligal, which equals 10-5 metre per second per second—i.e., about one-millionth of the average value of g.
gravitation. (2008). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 8, 2008, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online Library Edition: http://www.library.eb.com/eb/article-61476
Here is megabyte used to measure the size of computer memory
The main memory of a modern computer consists of a number of memory chips, each of which might hold many megabytes (millions of bytes), and still further addressing circuitry selects the appropriate chip for each address.
computer memory. (2008). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 8, 2008, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online Library Edition: http://www.library.eb.com/eb/article-252736
SWTPC6800 ( talk) 04:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Which we could certainly do, agr, if we can all agree that the shortcomings in the conventional options for disambiguating are so severe and so compelling, that our use of protologisms justifies violating the spirit of WP:SOAP, WP:NEO, MOSNUM:Which system to use, and WP:V so that Wikipedia can be justified in using terminology that no other general-interest computer magazine in the observable universe has seen fit to use.
I submit further, we should all have a show of hands as to who else here thinks we Wikipedia contributing editors are somehow more *enlightened* and somehow know better than the editors at all the general-interest computer magazines and all the professional print encyclopedias like Encyclopedia Britannica and World Book. I know this may seem combative. But there’s no ducking it; this is precisely what is underlying this debate. So let’s see an honest show of hands.
No, I am not more enlightened than the editors at all the general-interest computer magazines and professional print encyclopedias.
1. Greg L ( my talk) 23:19, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
2. SWTPC6800 ( talk) 00:18, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
3. Fnag aton 11:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
4. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 14:21, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
As a matter of fact, yes, I am more enlightened than all the editors at all the general-interest computer magazines and professional print encyclopedias.
1. [Your name here]
I'm not about to answer a leading question.
1. JIMp talk· cont 00:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Usually articles in general-interest computer magazines don’t bother with even a one-time disambiguation when one writes “the XYX Computer ships stock with 2 GB of RAM”; it’s clear enough. But if a Wikipedia author perceives the need for disambiguation, then a one-time footnote or two, as seen on Mac Pro, is all that should be necessary without having to resort to “gibibytes”.
As for your statement: “We know perfectly well that "all the editors at all the general-interest computer magazines and professional print encyclopedias" wouldn't agree on anything, mostly worked on articles completely unrelated to the subject…”, all I have to say to that statement is Wow! FYI, when I refer to “professional, paid editors at all the general-interest computer magazines and print encyclopedias”, I’m referring to the “editors”—not the contributing authors. Editors, like those who work at Encyclopedia Britannica or PC World, typically have advanced journalism degrees and know their subject matter extraordinarily well.
Finally, if you really mean what you just wrote above (“[My post] did not advocate continuing the struggle to use IEC prefixes. Just the opposite”), then I just don’t understand why we are arguing about anything at all; Follow current literature is just a bunch of common sense guidelines that affords authors a huge amount of latitude to do the right thing; you shouldn’t have a problem with any of it if you read what is really there. Greg L ( talk) 23:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
And when I refer to the editors at these publications, I am talking about the editors, not the contributing authors. Encyclopedias hire experts in any given field to write individual articles. But it is the editors who ensure that all copy is edited to have a harmonious writing style throughout and enforce many, many rules of style. In all the above literature, you will not find “mebibytes” and “450 ml” motorcycle engine because they don’t allow people who think the SI should be actively promoted push them into using units of measure that are effectively unheard of in a given discipline and for that level of readership. When I refer to the “editors” or “authors” on Wikipedia, I’m referring to anyone else, which includes complete novices who’ve never before tried their hand at technical writing. They need guidance and sensible rules to help ensure Wikipedia is a high-quality product.
The rest of your arguments—such as those over my “tone and tenor”—amount to nothing more than “sport” arguing. The battles over SI and IEC-prefix promotion raged for two years; getting this crap fixed did not come about by anyone being timid here. So please don’t presume you can tell me how I may think or express my thoughts. Greg L ( talk) 18:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
A post about the dispute, claiming consensus for the disputed text, has appeared at Wikiquette_alerts. Please comment there. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 12:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
There is currently a 'disputed' banner for the whole Units of Measurement. I just wonder whether we really need that. The contents read like this
Units of measurement
It seems to me that the main disputed parts are 4.2 (which has never had consensus), and 4.4.1 (which used to have consensus but is now disputed). And then I suppose 4.1 is automatically disputed by the presence of 4.2.
Are there any other disputed parts? If not, I propose that we put the disputed tags where they really belong, namely 4.1, 4.2 and 4.4.1. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 08:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Next, I’ll address your allegation that 4.2 (Follow current literature) “never had a consensus” and I will do so by simply repeating what I wrote above: Only on Wikipedia does one ever find such a ridiculous amount of mollycoddling to a vocal minority. One can change the U.S. Constitution, convict the U.S. President in a Senate impeachment trial, and find a party culpable to the tune of millions of dollars in a civil trial with vote balances like this. What’s at stake here is a hell of a lot less important than those examples: whether or not Wikipedia should better conform itself to the practices of professional, print encyclopedias like Encyclopedia Britannica, and use the units overwhelmingly used in the real world on relevant articles. Encyclopedia Britannica uses “megabyte” exclusively in computer articles. Why? Because the rest of the world does too. Encyclopedia Britannica uses “barrels” exclusively in articles about crude oil. The rest of the world does too.
The minority “oppose” element that objects to Follow current literature use arguments like “it opens the door to…”, and “influx of perplexing non-standard…”, and “willy-nilly…”. These arguments are specious and do not withstand the sanitizing scrutiny of the majority of the editors here. There is clearly a general consensus on this issue, and the “support” editors have leaned over backwards to give a full and fair hearing and to solicit the input from those who had anything remotely approaching a constructive suggestion or addressable concern.
If you want to place a {{disputed}} tag on a section, put it on 4.4.1 (“Binary prefixes”), which is now out of compliance with the will of the clear majority of editors here. You have lost any of the moral high ground here as a result of the childish crap you did to Bondwell. I was going to ignore what you did to that article when I discovered it yesterday until I came here and found this shot across the bow. Stop acting like a stubborn child, go with the flow of the level-headed majority here that has spoken clearly, and grow up! Greg L ( talk) 17:39, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
er … that tag was placed there by User:Happy-melon at the unopposed request of User:Pmanderson. Whoever removed it might wish to consider putting it back. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 19:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Do you think Happy-melon thought the {{disputed}} tag was going to stay on MOSNUM until every single “opposer” was happy as a clam? If an administrator takes a look at the current situation and concludes a {{disputed}} tag is warranted, that’s fine. But it was certainly not within your providence to propose duplicating that tag to wherever the “oppose” crowd had a dispute with one issue or another; it doesn’t work that way. Greg L ( talk) 20:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
No. You are missing the point, which is that there is a raging dispute all over this page that shows no signs of abating. Your endless tirade of rude and unjustified accusations (against me as well as other editors who happen to disagree with you) is tiresome and unconducive to any kind of compromise. I find your tone distasteful and am not prepared to stoop to your level of childishness by responding to the accusations further. I will, however, ask a rhetorical question in the vain hope that it might help you to see sense: how do expect to achieve consensus when you set yourself up as the sole arbiter of what may or may not appear on MOSNUM? Thunderbird2 ( talk) 21:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I have moved the disputed banner so that it does not affect those parts that have not been challenged (ie 4.4 except for 4.4.1 and the whole of 4.3 and 4.5). Please leave it like this until the dispute is resolved. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 18:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Omegatron not being punished does not mean the section is disputed. The case for adding a disputed tag has not been demonstrated. DavidPaulHamilton ( talk) 18:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
"It is very easy to create the appearance of a changing consensus simply by asking again and hoping that a different and more sympathetic group of people will discuss the issue. This, however, is a poor example of changing consensus, and is antithetical to the way that Wikipedia works. Wikipedia's decisions are not based on the number of people who showed up and voted a particular way on a particular day; they are based on a system of good reasons."
If Greg has now "Accepted" this advice from User:Seicer perhaps others can too? LeadSongDog ( talk) 03:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
It has been suggested here that in the UK the plural of lb (for pound) should be lbs. It seems to me that this contravenes MOSNUM. Please comment on the article talk page. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 16:21, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
It is clear that a minority of editors will not agree there is consensus despite the strong arguments and evidence for the consensus. Do not place disputed tags unless it is supported by substantive reasoning and do not replace the tag unless everyone involved is willing to agree to formal mediation. If anyone places back the tag in the near future then they will be demonstrating they are not interested in formal mediation. DavidPaulHamilton ( talk) 19:41, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The other solution is for everyone involved to agree they will not add any further disputed tags unless it really is shown there is clear consensus for having the tag added. Repeatedly adding the tag without strong reason to do so is counterproductive.
DavidPaulHamilton (
talk)
20:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Have you ever considered looking around you? The “substantive evidence” you are looking for is all over this page. Jeh, Jimp, Lightmouse, Thunderbird2 and Tony have voted against the text and a further 3 (Gene Nygaard, Jim77742 and LeadSongDog) have argued against it but have not voted. Finally, from Greg L’s edit summary (his emphasis) "and this section is STILL disputed". That makes 9 editors disputing the content of the section. How much more evidence do you need? Thunderbird2 ( talk) 20:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
MOS:DATE#Dates (or any other section I'm aware of) does not clarify that commas have to be inserted for full dates which are wiki-linked. Example; a comma automatically appears in February 14 2008 ( see the linked [[February 14]] [[2008]] here, note that it does not for February 14 2008 and February 14 2008). In other words, if the date is linked, the comma is visible to viewers even though it is not edited into the context. So, can someone see the logic in this revert? To me, this is like placing the |right| to an image which already has a mark-up like |frame| or |thumb| which sets the image to the right by default. My proposal — the guideline should say that a comma does not need to be inserted for a correctly linked date. Is this understandable? Lord Sesshomaru ( talk • edits) 02:52, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
(deindent) Make sure to note that just because they are not needed is no reason to run around removing them from existing articles. AnmaFinotera ( talk) 21:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I guess that could work, but what about Death Note? Some dates there have a comma, others do not. And if someone comes along and removes the commas while doing other good faith edits, like I did here, one should not revert blindly or undo only the removal of the commas, as that seems to be a case of Wikipedia:Ownership. So can we integrate what I just said into the guideline as well? Lord Sesshomaru ( talk • edits) 22:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
This has not been thought through. It is not necessary or even useful to have a different standard for articles that pertain to American topics. If I am editing a section of an article on a clearly British topic to correct a misspelled word, and then also see a mess like "happened on the 14<sup>th</sup> of Sept [[1777]]", I can simply change it to "happened on [[14 September]] [[1777]]". If I see this in a section of an article on a clearly American topic, I would, according to these new instructions. need to:
If this strikes anyone as an unrealistic burden to throw on the back of editors who are trying to clean up articles on American topics, I agree and sympathize with you completely. Before the manga edit skirmish began, we had 2 formats: [[July 4]], [[1776]] or [[4 July]] [[1776]], for west of the Atlantic and east of it. I feel that adding a 3rd format and encouraging its use (just because it is known that the software will fix it for general display) detracts from Wikipedia. I will remove that recommendation from the guideline. An agreement between two editors doesn't constitute much of a consensus. Chris the speller ( talk) 18:19, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
How about adding green check marks on the left of the table, just for the two formats that are accepted by the MOS? Red X's are already used on the right to indicate what will display as a dead link. Chris the speller ( talk) 15:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Totally different perspective (on original issue raised in this thread): The comma absolutely must be used in the [[February 29]], [[2007]]
format (and never in the other). The geeky reason is that the entire web has been evolving for over a decade now toward the complete separation of content and presentation markup, and this violates that principle. The more practical and immediate WP reason is that, as most of you know, Tony1 and others have been working hard to raise awareness of the absolute suckitude of the current date formatting system, with the eventual badly-desired result of removing the [[...]] markup that causes the dates to be wikilinked for no reader-useful reason, to be replaced by something as yet undetermined. It is very likely in my opinion that the developers will eventually fix this with an "intelligent" solution that auto-parses correctly formatted dates on-the-fly, in precisely the same way that it auto-parses correctly formatted cases of ISBN
followed by an ISBN number, rather than introduce some wacky new markup that no one understands ($#$February 27 2008$#$
or whatever). I'd bet real-world money on it. If I'm right, potentially millions of dates will not be auto-formatted because MOSNUM will have told editors they can be lazy and omit the commas, resulting in malformed dates when the square-brackets are removed for implementation of the new date coding system. For this reason, I correct cases of [[February 29]] [[2007]]
on sight. PS: The idea of "oh, well, the smart autoparser can just recognize that format too" does not fly, because WP is open content, meaning that it can be reused in any way that people want, including selectively downloading the wiki, not HTML source and stripping out what they don't like and reworking it; we have no guarantee at all that the MediaWiki parser will be used in any particular case of legitimate re-use of WP content. We cannot permit invalid content just because we're lazy and we assume (in some cases falsely) that tricky aspects of the MediaWiki code transmogrification process will compensate for our errors. By way of analogy, it would be trivial for the MW developers to install code that corrected on-the-fly all instances of "hte" and "corect" so that they were spelled correctly by the time the code was rendered in the browser window, without actually correcting these errors in the source code. No way, José. We have bots (and humans) correcting the source for a reason. This is why you will probably notice plenty of people going around and correcting cases of <br />
to <br />
. It simply doesn't matter that MW is smart enough to send the latter to the browser on-the-fly without correcting the source. The source has to be clean. A very probable (maybe already common!) use case for repurposing WP content is to get the WP database, load it into a customized instance of MW, remove all unwanted templates, subst all the rest of them with a bot, and replace all wikimarkup with its XHTML equivalents, then export the resulting lovely, validating XHTML code to a completely different kind of server. Not correcting <br />
and not fixing [[February 29]] [[2007]]
in the wiki code itself is going to really screw up that kind of WP content re-use. —
SMcCandlish [
talk] [
cont] ‹(-¿-)›
01:07, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
"...I thought it was <nowiki>ISBN 978-1-59874-011-0</nowiki> but it wasn't..."
, which renders as "...I thought it was ISBN 978-1-59874-011-0 but it wasn't...", as it should. We do this stuff all the time, like when you need to italicize something that begins with an apostrophe, etc., etc., etc. —
SMcCandlish [
talk] [
cont] ‹(-¿-)›
05:50, 5 April 2008 (UTC)SMcCandlish is right on the mark: we should not count on questionable MW software to correct our sloppiness. I have added green check marks to the table to show what is approved by this manual. Chris the speller ( talk) 18:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I encourage you, Chris, to come on back and get back into the saddle soon after the sting wears off. I really think MOSNUM needs an infusion of new blood. I’m not suggesting that there is anything wrong with the current “regulars”—not at all; we need old-timers to help keep us on track and explain history to us so we aren’t doomed to repeat past mistakes. On the other hand, I think it was wrong for a new arrival to get so soundly stomped on over such a trivial issue as the relative aesthetics of a checkmark. One of the editors posted this for their edit comment when he/she deleted your check marks: “removing yet more ugly check marks; approved by who?” Someone please correct me if I’m wrong here, but anyone can make minor edits on MOSNUM. Yes, like anything else on Wikipedia, those changes can always be reverted when another editor disagrees. But I don’t think Chris needed “approval” from one of the regulars around here to add them.
May I suggest we try to be a bit more accommodating to outsiders here? I think Chris the speller is feeling a bit like the first female firefighter to try to join the NY City Fire Department: more than a bit unwelcome. Only, what is at stake here isn’t as important as the physical ability of a firefighter to “ carry a 200-lb mayor out of a burning building”. Talk:MOSNUM is a market for the exchange of thought. I hate to sound like a University poster-boy for politically correct slogans, but some extra diversity of opinion can be very helpful on MOSNUM and we need to help newcomers to feel welcome. If there was more “history” to this spat than is apparent and this issue was just a “straw that broke the camel’s back” so to speak, I apologize for interceding without having researched this better. But at this point, I’m just not seeing a good justification for what lead up to Chris calling it quits on MOSNUM. Greg L ( my talk) 05:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
We already had this discussion in early February after I pointed out the table showed the wrong rendered formats for the comma cases. Chris the speller then placed red checkmarks with the comma cases, which I removed since they do render to one of the standard date formats, and we came to an agreement to have the double-asterisk ** note. Or so I thought. Sorry for being a bit abrupt, but I was surprised when the same edit appeared a couple days ago claiming some forms were now "approved".
I think it's a bad idea to list "approved forms" for wikitext. If it doesn't concern appearance, it shouldn't concern the Manual of Style, which is a guide for the style and formatting of articles as they are read. The MoS discusses wikitext occasionally to note alternatives producing the same rendered page, such as either one or two spaces after a period. As far as I know, we don't have MoS pages telling people to only use one space, or to write <br />, or to format cite templates with one field per line, or to use cite templates rather than hand-written references. Or do we now? Gimmetrow 07:26, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
It's been a while so perhaps things have settled, and I've asked Chris the speller back. I think our goals are not incompatible. I mainly want these edits (switching commas around in wikilinked dates) to stop, and I think the solution is to redesign the table more substantially.
We should just list the basic forms which produce autolinking. When discussing the redlink forms there is no need to show how they look under different format prefs since they don't change. Finally, observe that some variations in commas and spacing in the wikitext produce the same rendered forms, and there is no need to add or remove commas. I would even go so far as to say if there is any dispute about the wikitext, it should match the displayed form. I'm seeimg some editors even removing *spaces*: [[1 January]][[2001]] and [[January 1]][[2001]] render as 1 January 2001 and January 1 2001. This needs to stop. Gimmetrow 04:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Adding below. The table currently live on the page is mistaken in how [[15 May]] is rendered under different preferences. Gimmetrow 05:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I totally agree with SMcCandlish on the matter of commas in dates, unless I'm missing something. My wording in the draft below does not conflict with his comments, as far as I can see. Chris the speller ( talk) 20:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
What you type | What logged-in registered users see (settings on first row) | What others will see* | |||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
-- | January 15, 2001 | 15 January 2001 | 2001 January 15 | 2001-01-15 | No preference | -- | |
[[May 15]] | May 15 | 15 May | May 15 | May 15 | May 15 | May 15 | |
[[15 May]] | May 15 | 15 May | 15 May | 15 May | 15 May | 15 May | |
[[May 15]], [[2005]] | May 15, 2005 | 15 May 2005 | 2005 May 15 | 2005- 05-15 | May 15, 2005 | May 15, 2005 | |
[[15 May]] [[2005]] | May 15, 2005 | 15 May 2005 | 2005 May 15 | 2005- 05-15 | 15 May 2005 | 15 May 2005 | |
[[2005-05-15]] | May 15, 2005 | 15 May 2005 | 2005 May 15 | 2005- 05-15 | 2005- 05-15 | 2005- 05-15 | |
* Non-registered users and registered users not logged in |
This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 95 | ← | Archive 98 | Archive 99 | Archive 100 | Archive 101 | Archive 102 | → | Archive 105 |
The guideline recommends "1.2 in × 1.8 in" over "1.2 × 1.8 in", fair engough, but what if the "×" is spelt out as "by" and/or the "in" (or whatever unit) is spelt out as "inch(es)"? "1.2 by 1.8 inches" would seem quite normal to me, "1.2 inches by 1.8 inches" being perhaps a little over the top but not wrong. How about "1.2 × 1.8 inches" verses "1.2 inches × 1.8 inches"? How about "1.2 by 1.8 in" verses "1.2 in by 1.8 in"? I sort of feel it's a question of "×" vs "by" more than "in" vs "inch(es)". Thoughts anyone ... JIMp talk· cont 07:08, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
I would advise against writing like that when you write it in words. No one writes "a 2 by 24 millimeter section", so I don't see why one should write "a 2 by 4 inches wood plank". One speaks of 2 by 4's, or 2x4's but that's because grammar-wise it's the name of the thing. When giving specifications, it should be "1.2 in x 1.8 in" or "1.2 inches by 1.8 inches", the x being used when units are in unit form and the by when units are fully spelled out. IMO. Headbomb ( talk · contribs) 14:02, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, a 2 by 4's actual dimensions are 38×89mm, see Dimensional lumber - which should probably be linked from instances of "two by four". -- Random832 ( contribs) 20:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
What on earth is wrong with "1.2 × 1.8 in" and "50 × 100 mm"? Shorter, easier to pick up, and absolutely unambiguous. TONY (talk) 14:15, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
There's a missing unit in the first number, so it could be anything. 1.2 ft x 1.8 in; 1.2 in x 1.8 in, 1.2 yards x 1.2 inches etc. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 19:02, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I am almost 100% sure that phone numbers should NOT be added to Wikipedia, though the creator of this page seems to disagree. I want to delete them (stop me if I'm wrong) but each time I am stopped. I would appreciate it if someone could point our anything at all relevant to my point that I can share with said user as I can find none myself -- Maurice45 ( talk) 19:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I see that Fnagaton has flagrantly abused his role as a sysop by closing the AN/I on Omegatron with this POV summary:
This discussion has been archived after Tony's attempt to misrepresent and to make edits after the section has been archived. Tony's attempted bad faith misrepresentation and the subsquent refutation is now archived.
I was not aware that the page had been closed when I made whatever edit he's referring to. But there is a serious accusation of "misrepresentation", and again "bad faith misrepresentatio" that I dispute; in its focus on me alone, it is POV.
Can anyone advise me where I can make an official complaint about this? It seems a denial of natural justice that he thinks he can close a page with such a POV summary to which I have no right of reply, the content of which I think a lot of people would dispute. I think this is sysop-resignation material. [1] TONY (talk) 14:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
It was a complicated month, so I hope I've captured, as simply as possible, the substantive changes. Please notify any issues on the talk page. TONY (talk) 15:59, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
:Tony, did you mean this talk page? I am assuming so, and I do have one minor comment, which is that in SI-speak, kgs does not mean kilogram-second (that would be kg·s or kg s).
Thunderbird2 (
talk) 16:09, 7 May 2008 (UTC) Comment moved to the correct talk page
Thunderbird2 (
talk)
10:27, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
User:Omegatron has given the bugzilla (MediaWiki) developers a proposal to automatically avoid wrapping lines between numbers and certain abbreviations, such as cm or m. The link is https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/show_bug.cgi?id=13619. He's not proposing that they insert a no-break space character, simply that the html rendering not wrap the line in those places. Does anyone have anything to add or subtract from the list of scientific symbols at User:Bobblewik/monobook.js/unitformatter.js? - Dan Dank55 ( talk) 03:24, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
Centralized discussion: Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style#No-break_spaces_discussion_continues_at_bugzilla — Omegatron ( talk) 17:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
I agree the discussion should be in one place at a time ... nothing was going on there when I posted this :) Let's keep it there for now, but input would be appreciated, we don't get to take our concerns to bugzilla every day, and this one is important (to me). - Dan Dank55 ( talk) 19:53, 12 April 2008 (UTC)
This line
txt.value = txt.value.replace(/º/g, '°');
is indiscriminate. It will replace instances even where the Ordinal indicator character is actually intended.
txt.value = txt.value.replace(/centigrade/gi, 'Celsius');
replaces all instances of the word "centigrade" in any context. "The Celsius temperature scale was previously known as the centigrade scale." would become "The Celsius temperature scale was previously known as the Celsius scale."
I'm also concerned in general about the indiscriminate behavior of this script, as applies to quotations, URLs, etc.. -- Random832 ( contribs) 19:58, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
User:SkyLined is working on a template {{ val}}that'll fix this. Right now it's buggy (problem with 0s and the max number of digits mostly) though, so it's hard to recommend as if, but having wikipedia automattically replace anything indiscriminately is a BAD, BAD, BAD idea.
Examples: 123123.123234 MeV/c2, 1.22(35)×10−12 s Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 13:09, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
No no no. The Mediawiki feature changes regular spaces into non-breaking spaces for display only. Currently, if you type « something in guillemets », the spaces between the guillemets and the words are converted into nonbreaking spaces when the page is rendered (see the wiki source and HTML source for the example I just typed). We are proposing that this be extended to units and dashes.
This will not add spaces where none previously existed. It will not affect the article's source code. All it will do is prevent numbers and units from breaking lines. False positives can be fixed by changing the regexp and nothing will be harmed by it. The worst thing that could possibly happen is two words not wrapping when they should. The link to Bobblewik's script is just an example of the kinds of units it could recognize, since my simple proposal to just change any instance of <number><space><letter> was rejected. — Omegatron ( talk) 16:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
{ Quick link to version on MOSNUM}
The following green-div section is a “live” version for making proposals on. Please don’t do edit warring here. Discuss your proposals and edits in Discussion of “Fourth draft”, below.
Let’s not treat the fourth draft as so sacrosanct; that’s what this is here for: a sandbox. If someone has what they think is a good idea, toss it out there for others to look at. And don’t be defensive if someone replaces it with something else; we always have the red-div for reference. If someone is considering trying an edit they really know would be unhelpful and they know full well that the edit would be strongly opposed, don’t bother. Give & take. If someone has what they think is a truly bright idea that will gain consensus, add it to the below green-div ASAP. If everyone embraces the philosophy that they will only make edits intended to be one-and-a-half steps forward and only a half step backward (greater consensus with each move), this may go smoother. That’s my 2¢. Greg L ( talk) 01:07, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Follow current literature
Use terminology and symbols commonly employed in the current literature for that subject and level of technicality. When in doubt, use the units of measure, prefixes, unit symbols, number notation, and methods of disambiguation most often employed in reliable periodicals directed to a similar readership.
The objective of technical writing is to communicate with minimal confusion so that readers can learn about a subject and are primed as well as possible to learn even more in their studies elsewhere. There are three important elements in determining what terminology and units of measure are best suited for a given article:
Preference for international units
Discipline-specific practices
Level of difficulty (Do not write over the heads of the readership)
Clearly, it is unrealistic to expect that wording for Fourth draft, above, can be found that will make all parties to this discussion happy; some editors’ views are polar opposites of another. The best we can do here is track how editors feel about this and endeavor to maximize the total score of support. Any edits that yields more points of support than it takes away should be considered as progress. Greg L ( talk) 21:36, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
At 8:3 in favor and no new “oppose” votes in over two days, there is clearly a general consensus in support of this guideline. Further, the arguments of the “oppose” votes simply are either in the minority, or are fallacious and can’t realistically be considered as a legitimate basis for maintaining a {dispute} tag, which has been removed. Greg L ( talk) 21:33, 7 May 2008 (UTC)
DEGREE OF GENERAL CONSENSUS | |||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|
Editor | 4 | 3 | 2 | 1 | 0 |
Dank55 | |||||
DavidPaulHamilton | x | ||||
Denniss | |||||
Fnagaton | X [1] | ||||
Gene Nygaard | |||||
Gerry Ashton | X | ||||
Greg L | X [2] | ||||
Headbomb | x [3] [4] | ||||
Jeh | x [5] | ||||
Jim77742 | |||||
Jimp | × [6] | ||||
LeadSongDog | |||||
Lightmouse | x | ||||
Mahjongg | X [7] | ||||
Marty Goldberg | |||||
MJCdetroit | X [8] | ||||
Pmanderson | |||||
Rilak | X [9] | ||||
SWTPC6800 | X | ||||
Thunderbird2 | X [10] | ||||
TONY | X | ||||
New editor… | |||||
New editor… | |||||
New editor… | |||||
New editor… |
Vote comments
This section is intended to provide a forum for rebutting and commenting on the above vote comments. This is in hopes of keeping the above Vote comments short and pithy. Greg L ( talk) 21:42, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Tony's vote:
I was kinda surprised to have a vote at 0 when we had three at 4, and I wondered how in the world could someone be in complete opposition to this. So I decided to review Tony's comment to see what his objections were. Here are his objections:
And then out of the blue we have very explosive remarks from someone who up until this point appeared to have been arguing constructively with concern that consensus was reached etc... remarks such as
Continuing with some more objections:
So unless I'm missing something here, perhaps Tony gave a reason for his complete opposition but someone deleted it, perhaps the he clicked on the submit button and subsequently X'd his window before the submit had a chance to go through, I think Tony made a mistake and X'ed a checkbox he didn't mean to X. It would be doing a disfavor to all the other editors who worked hard on this proposal, including Tony, to count his vote as it stands now. I'm sure Tony will check the checkbox he meant to check very soon, or will provide us with the reasons of his opposition. Headbomb ( ταλκ · κοντριβς) 15:24, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
To Tony (and Lightmouse): Let’s set aside issues over how this guideline got here. Let’s set aside the details of the examples used to support the broad principle. The policy in its totality, basically boils down to this:
To Jimp: So… when you wrote in your vote summary “a very problematic proposal which could well lead to many arguements and inconsistencies along with an influx of perplexing non-standard terms, units and abbreviations”, you must mean that it will lead to “inconsistencies” worse that what we have now, where one computer article on Wikipedia uses “MiB” and other uses “MB”; a problem this policy addresses. Or by “arguments”, you seem to be implying that the current situation, where there are ten archives (and counting) dedicated just to bickering over the IEC prefixes and that is a good thing. Is that right? But by “perplexing, non-standard terms”, I assume you must mean some editors’ continued use of units of measure no one is familiar with, which this policy addresses. Is that right? Or is it that you really like these unwise practices but you just can’t find a rational argument to oppose an obviously good policy? Greg L ( talk) 18:36, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
And to all: This isn’t some sort of contest where opposing editors game the system with zero points trying to keep the point count low and obstruct progress. You can’t obstruct progress; it will go forward regardless, along with those who are have recently hopped on board and have been working in good faith on this. The point system was added here to serve as a gauge of progress. It is already understood that some editors simply think the IEC prefixes are a great idea (even though the rest of the real world doesn’t use them) and they’ll never come on board. It is already recognized that some editors are so smitten with the SI, they oppose the use of non-SI units even though they are standard in the discipline and the BIPM approved their use with the SI. We understand that there will simply be no bringing these editors on board. If opposing editors don’t go with the flow and try work collaboratively with the rest of us to develop wording that better puts Wikipedia in alignment with the rest of the world’s encyclopedias and books, then you’re going to miss out on an opportunity to help craft the final product that goes to MOSNUM for good. Greg L ( talk) 18:36, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
In every instance I can envision Jimp, all we will be doing is bringing Wikipedia in line 1) with real-world usage and literature in a field, 2) with the way professional encyclopedias like World Book and Encyclopedia Britannica already do it. That means “cc” for Honda and Suzuki motorcycles, “barrels” for crude oil production, and “megabyte” for computers. In many cases, Wikipedia is already doing the right thing in “going with the flow.” In others, like “megabyte” we’ve currently got an untenable situation where some articles go with the flow of real-world usage while still other articles put Wikipedia in the position of being the only place around by using terms like “mebibyte” in general-interest computer articles. Further, battles have raged continually for years from the moment that unwise practice first began. This marks the beginning of the end for that practice and is the beginning of consistently keeping Wikipedia in line with the practices observed by professional, paid editors at the real, print encyclopedias. As long as the editors here take a good-faith approach to following the guideline, disputes will be settled faster and much more rationally from hereon.
As for a “lack of consensus”, that’s not the case. Francis Schonken, an uninvolved administrator editor who
works on Wikipedia policy issues long ago (even before this latest vote) stated as follows: “Discussion [now primarily] seems to be style improvements of the wording (and "too long"/"too short" kind of comments) - nothing substantive to the core of the matter of this being a useful idea to be added to mosnum. Yes the procedure was somewhat unusual. Nothing inappropriate or whatever though, congratulations!”
Greg L (
talk)
03:40, 8 May 2008 (UTC)
The minority “oppose” element that objects to Follow current literature use arguments like “it opens the door to…”, and “influx of perplexing non-standard…”, and “willy-nilly…”. These arguments are specious and do not withstand the sanitizing scrutiny of the majority of the editors here. There is clearly a general consensus on this issue, and the “support” editors have leaned over backwards to give a full and fair hearing and to solicit the input from those who had anything remotely approaching a constructive suggestion or addressable concern. Greg L ( talk) 01:06, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
{ Quick link to “Copy from current MOSNUM”}
I would give SI or unit accepted with SI preference when writing an overview of many topics that do not use the same units. An example of that would be an article North American oil importations. Since US uses barrels, Mexico uses [insert Mexican unit here] and Canada uses m3, when uniting the three in one, give preference to SI units, even if the US article is written in barrels and the Mexican article is written in [insert Mexican units here]. Headbomb ( talk · contribs) 19:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Add "unless there is a predominant international usage for the non-SI units." to what I just said. What I say may not apply to oil imports, but you get the idea. Headbomb ( talk · contribs) 19:18, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I guess adding what I wrote would be kind redundant. Headbomb ( talk · contribs) 19:34, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
How do you read it to do that? It recommends against giving SI primary position when, as with bbl, some other unit is customary, but that's all. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 19:43, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I would have thought Preference for modern units (SI) and all the examples of engine displacements would address any possible ambiguity in this regard. If your feel that a fair, honest, straightforward interpretation (no hidden strings assumed) can be construed as somehow forbidding parenthetical conversions to the SI, then let’s fix it. Note that the current wording says “Parenthetical conversions should be given where appropriate and should generally also follow the practices in current literature on that subject unless there is good reason to do otherwise.” There are so many examples—besides oil—that could be added but things would get cluttered awfully fast. I would think the general principal of Follow current literature should suffice. Greg L ( talk) 19:48, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
The phrase “Saudi Arabia exported 9.0 million barrels of crude” from the fourth draft does not contain a conversion to SI units, thus implying there should be no such conversion. Also, the forth draft says "'a gravity gradient of 3.1 µGal/cm', not 'a gravity gradient of 3.1×10−6 s–2'", which implies that if a unit that is metric but neither SI nor accepted for use with SI is used, it is incorrect to provide a conversion to the appropriate SI unit. I suggest the draft be immediately updated to show any acceptable conversion, and a statement that conversions other than those shown in the examples are incorrect. Otherwise it is difficult to judge just what conversions the draft is, or is not, advocating. -- Gerry Ashton ( talk) 19:59, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Does anyone here know how current periodicals on these subjects handles these two conversions? Or how Encyclopedia Britannica and other professional encyclopedias handle this issue. Or how a really general-interest, English-language periodical like Newsweek would handle it barrels of oil? I don’t know the answer to how the Canadian-version of Newsweek handles barrels of oil, but I would argue that if even they don’t disambiguate to cubic meters, then doing so here wouldn’t be appropriate. In the case of gravimetry (gals), the unit SI-equivalent (“reciprocal seconds squared”) wouldn’t found anywhere but here and is a really hard unit to get one’s mind around. Just linking to the linked gal/cm link and reading that it is a centimeter per second squared of acceleration for each centimeter of elevation is all that is required to properly educate the reader and prepare them for their studies elsewhere. Why teach them a hard-to-understand unit they wouldn’t encounter in the real world? This issue cuts precisely to the heart of the discussion: to follow current literature and not run off doing our own thing promoting the adoption of the SI when it doesn’t really “clarify” anything for anyone. Greg L ( talk) 20:10, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
As Mencken said, "For every problem, there is a solution that is clear, simple, obvious, and wrong." Attempting to say what exactly should be done in a bulletpoint is one of these. No bulletpoint is complex enough to fit the universe; but
would be a good start. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 20:31, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Please don't waste your time defending barrels of oil or gal/cm. Since these are examples, they should represent what to do in a wide variety of similar cases, and readers shouldn't have to be gravity or petroleum experts to understand the examples. Consider the gravity example: a non-SI unit that is accepted for use with SI in some circumstances. Another such unit is the astronomical unit. The absence of a conversion for gals implies that one shouldn't provide a conversion for astronomical units either. If the reasons for not providing a conversions for gals can't be understood by anyone lacking a degree in physics, it's useless as an example. -- Gerry Ashton ( talk) 20:25, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I now see those bullets. Thanks. Will they be put in a green box as a proposal on this page? Lightmouse ( talk) 20:38, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Has your proposal got support of anyone besides yourself? Lightmouse ( talk) 20:46, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
What is a stub? Lightmouse ( talk) 20:54, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I am getting confused now just when I thought I was beginning to understand you better. A stub article is an article that happens to contain few words. Are you saying that your text in bullet form is a proposal that happens to contain few words? Lightmouse ( talk) 21:05, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Let us deal with the bullet first. Work on the example can come second. Lightmouse ( talk) 21:40, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Thanks MJCdetroit. I’ll go revise the fourth draft per your teachings. We’ll see if that’s “one-and-a-half steps forward” or backwards ;-). Greg L ( talk) 06:29, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
As for lightyears: Well, in current literature you see those converted to kilometers and miles all the time. Ergo, in keeping with follow current literature, editors should convert lightyears parenthetically where appropriate. Simple. Why is this being made so complex? Wikipedia is not the private reserve of editors to use as a soap box to promote the adoption of the SI in hopes of changing the way the world makes measurements and how people communicate those measurements.
The gree-div basically says this: Wikipedia prefers international systems of measurement unless the subject is a discipline that consistently does otherwise. Usually, a Wikipedia editor will be sufficiently expert in the subject to know what units are used in an industry; a Suzuki motorcycle enthusiast knows that it’s a “450 cc engine.” If there is doubt for some reason, look to current literature. The motorcycle enthusiast will have zero problem demonstrating to some kookie SI fanatic what is the proper way to denote a Suzuki engine and will have the backing of MOSNUM when the feathers fly. Greg L ( talk) 23:04, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
LeadSongDog: Your edit suggestion (via strike-text) to delete the entire “Level of difficulty (Do not write over the heads of the readership)” section probably isn’t an edit that could reasonably be considered as ‘one-and-a-half steps forward and only a half-step backwards.’ In your edit summary, you wrote “Strike whole Level of difficulty para - doesn't belong here.” I would argue that it is very much part of the central issue; and on two counts no less: 1) The entire section is about “Follow current literature” and the Level of difficulty sub-section clearly is about precisely that very issue. And 2) the paragraph also pertains squarely to the choice of units.
You also added a hidden editors note alongside the struck text that said “<!-- This is a generality for all writing that shouldn't be buried in a dates and numbers guideline. -->”. However, as experienced editors, we’ve all seen numerous instances where novice editors, perhaps a little too anxious to apply the power of scientific notation, for instance, have employed the practice inappropriately. Your describing this advise as a “generality” is accurate; it is common sense. But just because it’s common sense, Wikipedia has the extra challenge that absolutely anyone can be an editor on Wikipedia; the fundamentals need to be spelled out so these editors get the “aha” of the basics and so disputes can be settled as easily as possible. Greg L ( talk) 19:19, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
This particular paragraph (Level of difficulty—Do not write over the heads of the readership) that you’ve said is a “generality for all writing”, is a specific guideline to help editors better understand the nuances of choosing units of measure. We’ve been discussing units of measure here for a long time and it is difficult even for us to agree on what it says ( {1} {2} ). It can be much more difficult for a new editor to divine what Wikipedia guidelines are regarding the units of measure that should be used in articles. When you throw in a new editor’s bias or personal desire (“scientific notation is way-cool”), editors can—and frequently do—do the wrong thing. The last paragraph of Follow current literature provides extra guidance to help reduce occurrences of this.
As far as your statement that this last paragraph should be on MOS, and not “buried in MOSNUM”, I would counter that it clearly should be in both. The “numbers” section has a Main tag directing readers here to MOSNUM. The principle should be mentioned on MOS for those readers who are disinclined to click on the Main tag to come here as well as here to ensure editors are properly provided this guidance. Given that this particular paragraph’s wording is common sense, good advise, is relatively uncontroversial, and has wide support, it makes no sense to delete it now. When things have settled down, it can always be removed later if it becomes clear that it serves no purpose whatsoever. I rather doubt, however, that this will prove to be the case. Greg L ( talk) 15:55, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
I think the sentence "Wikipedia's mission is to..." makes a valid point in the original version, but that "preference for international units" in the fourth-draft version is more encyclopædic in tone than "preference for modern units." Other than that, both versions seem fine to me. As for whether there is a "consensus"– clearly, there is none. Instead of the current "This page's designation as a policy or guideline is disputed or under discussion" template, however, is there one that is less obtrusive (e.g., without a big red question mark), that maybe says something like "this guideline is currently under active development. Please visit the talk page to view the discussion"? 69.140.152.55 ( talk) 03:20, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
My local library has the Encyclopedia Britannica Online Edition and patrons can access it from their home computers. The Britannica articles have word links to other topics just like Wikipedia. I looked up motorcycle and found a 900 word articles. Here is a paragraph that covers engine displacement. It looks like the "follow current literature" proposal. Note the conversion of fuel economy.
Motorcycles are produced with both two-stroke- and four-stroke-cycle engines and with up to four cylinders. Most are air-cooled, though a few are water-cooled. Engines are generally limited to displacements of about 1,800 cc. The smallest designs, termed mopeds (from “motor pedal”), have very small engines (50 cc) with fuel economies of as much as 2.4 litres per 100 km (100 miles per gallon). Such units are not permitted on limited-access public roads because of their low speed capability. In order of increasing power capacity and engine displacements, the other five classifications are child bikes, trail bikes, road bikes, touring bikes, and racing bikes. A subcategory of racing bikes is known as superbikes. These are motorcycles that displace more than 900 cc and in which the seat is tilted forward so that the rider is hunched over the frame, creating a more aerodynamic profile.
motorcycle. (2008). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 7, 2008, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online Library Edition: http://www.library.eb.com/eb/article-64093
This quote from the petroleum article shows oil measured in barrels. Also note the large number does not use scientific notation.
The discovery that transformed Saudi Arabia into a leading oil country was the Al-Ghawar field. Discovered in 1948, this field has proved to be the world's largest, containing 82,000,000,000 barrels.
petroleum. (2008). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 8, 2008, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online Library Edition: http://www.library.eb.com/eb/article-50724
This quote is from the gravitation article.
Because gravity changes are far less than 1 metre per second per second, it is convenient to have a smaller unit for relative measurements. The gal (named after Galileo) has been adopted for this purpose; a gal is one-hundredth metre per second per second. The unit most commonly used is the milligal, which equals 10-5 metre per second per second—i.e., about one-millionth of the average value of g.
gravitation. (2008). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 8, 2008, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online Library Edition: http://www.library.eb.com/eb/article-61476
Here is megabyte used to measure the size of computer memory
The main memory of a modern computer consists of a number of memory chips, each of which might hold many megabytes (millions of bytes), and still further addressing circuitry selects the appropriate chip for each address.
computer memory. (2008). In Encyclopædia Britannica. Retrieved May 8, 2008, from Encyclopædia Britannica Online Library Edition: http://www.library.eb.com/eb/article-252736
SWTPC6800 ( talk) 04:28, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
Which we could certainly do, agr, if we can all agree that the shortcomings in the conventional options for disambiguating are so severe and so compelling, that our use of protologisms justifies violating the spirit of WP:SOAP, WP:NEO, MOSNUM:Which system to use, and WP:V so that Wikipedia can be justified in using terminology that no other general-interest computer magazine in the observable universe has seen fit to use.
I submit further, we should all have a show of hands as to who else here thinks we Wikipedia contributing editors are somehow more *enlightened* and somehow know better than the editors at all the general-interest computer magazines and all the professional print encyclopedias like Encyclopedia Britannica and World Book. I know this may seem combative. But there’s no ducking it; this is precisely what is underlying this debate. So let’s see an honest show of hands.
No, I am not more enlightened than the editors at all the general-interest computer magazines and professional print encyclopedias.
1. Greg L ( my talk) 23:19, 10 April 2008 (UTC)
2. SWTPC6800 ( talk) 00:18, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
3. Fnag aton 11:42, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
4. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 14:21, 11 April 2008 (UTC)
As a matter of fact, yes, I am more enlightened than all the editors at all the general-interest computer magazines and professional print encyclopedias.
1. [Your name here]
I'm not about to answer a leading question.
1. JIMp talk· cont 00:07, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
Usually articles in general-interest computer magazines don’t bother with even a one-time disambiguation when one writes “the XYX Computer ships stock with 2 GB of RAM”; it’s clear enough. But if a Wikipedia author perceives the need for disambiguation, then a one-time footnote or two, as seen on Mac Pro, is all that should be necessary without having to resort to “gibibytes”.
As for your statement: “We know perfectly well that "all the editors at all the general-interest computer magazines and professional print encyclopedias" wouldn't agree on anything, mostly worked on articles completely unrelated to the subject…”, all I have to say to that statement is Wow! FYI, when I refer to “professional, paid editors at all the general-interest computer magazines and print encyclopedias”, I’m referring to the “editors”—not the contributing authors. Editors, like those who work at Encyclopedia Britannica or PC World, typically have advanced journalism degrees and know their subject matter extraordinarily well.
Finally, if you really mean what you just wrote above (“[My post] did not advocate continuing the struggle to use IEC prefixes. Just the opposite”), then I just don’t understand why we are arguing about anything at all; Follow current literature is just a bunch of common sense guidelines that affords authors a huge amount of latitude to do the right thing; you shouldn’t have a problem with any of it if you read what is really there. Greg L ( talk) 23:45, 9 May 2008 (UTC)
And when I refer to the editors at these publications, I am talking about the editors, not the contributing authors. Encyclopedias hire experts in any given field to write individual articles. But it is the editors who ensure that all copy is edited to have a harmonious writing style throughout and enforce many, many rules of style. In all the above literature, you will not find “mebibytes” and “450 ml” motorcycle engine because they don’t allow people who think the SI should be actively promoted push them into using units of measure that are effectively unheard of in a given discipline and for that level of readership. When I refer to the “editors” or “authors” on Wikipedia, I’m referring to anyone else, which includes complete novices who’ve never before tried their hand at technical writing. They need guidance and sensible rules to help ensure Wikipedia is a high-quality product.
The rest of your arguments—such as those over my “tone and tenor”—amount to nothing more than “sport” arguing. The battles over SI and IEC-prefix promotion raged for two years; getting this crap fixed did not come about by anyone being timid here. So please don’t presume you can tell me how I may think or express my thoughts. Greg L ( talk) 18:14, 10 May 2008 (UTC)
A post about the dispute, claiming consensus for the disputed text, has appeared at Wikiquette_alerts. Please comment there. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 12:33, 12 May 2008 (UTC)
There is currently a 'disputed' banner for the whole Units of Measurement. I just wonder whether we really need that. The contents read like this
Units of measurement
It seems to me that the main disputed parts are 4.2 (which has never had consensus), and 4.4.1 (which used to have consensus but is now disputed). And then I suppose 4.1 is automatically disputed by the presence of 4.2.
Are there any other disputed parts? If not, I propose that we put the disputed tags where they really belong, namely 4.1, 4.2 and 4.4.1. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 08:54, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Next, I’ll address your allegation that 4.2 (Follow current literature) “never had a consensus” and I will do so by simply repeating what I wrote above: Only on Wikipedia does one ever find such a ridiculous amount of mollycoddling to a vocal minority. One can change the U.S. Constitution, convict the U.S. President in a Senate impeachment trial, and find a party culpable to the tune of millions of dollars in a civil trial with vote balances like this. What’s at stake here is a hell of a lot less important than those examples: whether or not Wikipedia should better conform itself to the practices of professional, print encyclopedias like Encyclopedia Britannica, and use the units overwhelmingly used in the real world on relevant articles. Encyclopedia Britannica uses “megabyte” exclusively in computer articles. Why? Because the rest of the world does too. Encyclopedia Britannica uses “barrels” exclusively in articles about crude oil. The rest of the world does too.
The minority “oppose” element that objects to Follow current literature use arguments like “it opens the door to…”, and “influx of perplexing non-standard…”, and “willy-nilly…”. These arguments are specious and do not withstand the sanitizing scrutiny of the majority of the editors here. There is clearly a general consensus on this issue, and the “support” editors have leaned over backwards to give a full and fair hearing and to solicit the input from those who had anything remotely approaching a constructive suggestion or addressable concern.
If you want to place a {{disputed}} tag on a section, put it on 4.4.1 (“Binary prefixes”), which is now out of compliance with the will of the clear majority of editors here. You have lost any of the moral high ground here as a result of the childish crap you did to Bondwell. I was going to ignore what you did to that article when I discovered it yesterday until I came here and found this shot across the bow. Stop acting like a stubborn child, go with the flow of the level-headed majority here that has spoken clearly, and grow up! Greg L ( talk) 17:39, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
er … that tag was placed there by User:Happy-melon at the unopposed request of User:Pmanderson. Whoever removed it might wish to consider putting it back. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 19:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
Do you think Happy-melon thought the {{disputed}} tag was going to stay on MOSNUM until every single “opposer” was happy as a clam? If an administrator takes a look at the current situation and concludes a {{disputed}} tag is warranted, that’s fine. But it was certainly not within your providence to propose duplicating that tag to wherever the “oppose” crowd had a dispute with one issue or another; it doesn’t work that way. Greg L ( talk) 20:25, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
No. You are missing the point, which is that there is a raging dispute all over this page that shows no signs of abating. Your endless tirade of rude and unjustified accusations (against me as well as other editors who happen to disagree with you) is tiresome and unconducive to any kind of compromise. I find your tone distasteful and am not prepared to stoop to your level of childishness by responding to the accusations further. I will, however, ask a rhetorical question in the vain hope that it might help you to see sense: how do expect to achieve consensus when you set yourself up as the sole arbiter of what may or may not appear on MOSNUM? Thunderbird2 ( talk) 21:22, 11 May 2008 (UTC)
I have moved the disputed banner so that it does not affect those parts that have not been challenged (ie 4.4 except for 4.4.1 and the whole of 4.3 and 4.5). Please leave it like this until the dispute is resolved. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 18:20, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Omegatron not being punished does not mean the section is disputed. The case for adding a disputed tag has not been demonstrated. DavidPaulHamilton ( talk) 18:00, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
"It is very easy to create the appearance of a changing consensus simply by asking again and hoping that a different and more sympathetic group of people will discuss the issue. This, however, is a poor example of changing consensus, and is antithetical to the way that Wikipedia works. Wikipedia's decisions are not based on the number of people who showed up and voted a particular way on a particular day; they are based on a system of good reasons."
If Greg has now "Accepted" this advice from User:Seicer perhaps others can too? LeadSongDog ( talk) 03:42, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
It has been suggested here that in the UK the plural of lb (for pound) should be lbs. It seems to me that this contravenes MOSNUM. Please comment on the article talk page. Thunderbird2 ( talk) 16:21, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
It is clear that a minority of editors will not agree there is consensus despite the strong arguments and evidence for the consensus. Do not place disputed tags unless it is supported by substantive reasoning and do not replace the tag unless everyone involved is willing to agree to formal mediation. If anyone places back the tag in the near future then they will be demonstrating they are not interested in formal mediation. DavidPaulHamilton ( talk) 19:41, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
The other solution is for everyone involved to agree they will not add any further disputed tags unless it really is shown there is clear consensus for having the tag added. Repeatedly adding the tag without strong reason to do so is counterproductive.
DavidPaulHamilton (
talk)
20:03, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
Have you ever considered looking around you? The “substantive evidence” you are looking for is all over this page. Jeh, Jimp, Lightmouse, Thunderbird2 and Tony have voted against the text and a further 3 (Gene Nygaard, Jim77742 and LeadSongDog) have argued against it but have not voted. Finally, from Greg L’s edit summary (his emphasis) "and this section is STILL disputed". That makes 9 editors disputing the content of the section. How much more evidence do you need? Thunderbird2 ( talk) 20:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)
MOS:DATE#Dates (or any other section I'm aware of) does not clarify that commas have to be inserted for full dates which are wiki-linked. Example; a comma automatically appears in February 14 2008 ( see the linked [[February 14]] [[2008]] here, note that it does not for February 14 2008 and February 14 2008). In other words, if the date is linked, the comma is visible to viewers even though it is not edited into the context. So, can someone see the logic in this revert? To me, this is like placing the |right| to an image which already has a mark-up like |frame| or |thumb| which sets the image to the right by default. My proposal — the guideline should say that a comma does not need to be inserted for a correctly linked date. Is this understandable? Lord Sesshomaru ( talk • edits) 02:52, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
(deindent) Make sure to note that just because they are not needed is no reason to run around removing them from existing articles. AnmaFinotera ( talk) 21:13, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
I guess that could work, but what about Death Note? Some dates there have a comma, others do not. And if someone comes along and removes the commas while doing other good faith edits, like I did here, one should not revert blindly or undo only the removal of the commas, as that seems to be a case of Wikipedia:Ownership. So can we integrate what I just said into the guideline as well? Lord Sesshomaru ( talk • edits) 22:37, 10 March 2008 (UTC)
This has not been thought through. It is not necessary or even useful to have a different standard for articles that pertain to American topics. If I am editing a section of an article on a clearly British topic to correct a misspelled word, and then also see a mess like "happened on the 14<sup>th</sup> of Sept [[1777]]", I can simply change it to "happened on [[14 September]] [[1777]]". If I see this in a section of an article on a clearly American topic, I would, according to these new instructions. need to:
If this strikes anyone as an unrealistic burden to throw on the back of editors who are trying to clean up articles on American topics, I agree and sympathize with you completely. Before the manga edit skirmish began, we had 2 formats: [[July 4]], [[1776]] or [[4 July]] [[1776]], for west of the Atlantic and east of it. I feel that adding a 3rd format and encouraging its use (just because it is known that the software will fix it for general display) detracts from Wikipedia. I will remove that recommendation from the guideline. An agreement between two editors doesn't constitute much of a consensus. Chris the speller ( talk) 18:19, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
How about adding green check marks on the left of the table, just for the two formats that are accepted by the MOS? Red X's are already used on the right to indicate what will display as a dead link. Chris the speller ( talk) 15:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Totally different perspective (on original issue raised in this thread): The comma absolutely must be used in the [[February 29]], [[2007]]
format (and never in the other). The geeky reason is that the entire web has been evolving for over a decade now toward the complete separation of content and presentation markup, and this violates that principle. The more practical and immediate WP reason is that, as most of you know, Tony1 and others have been working hard to raise awareness of the absolute suckitude of the current date formatting system, with the eventual badly-desired result of removing the [[...]] markup that causes the dates to be wikilinked for no reader-useful reason, to be replaced by something as yet undetermined. It is very likely in my opinion that the developers will eventually fix this with an "intelligent" solution that auto-parses correctly formatted dates on-the-fly, in precisely the same way that it auto-parses correctly formatted cases of ISBN
followed by an ISBN number, rather than introduce some wacky new markup that no one understands ($#$February 27 2008$#$
or whatever). I'd bet real-world money on it. If I'm right, potentially millions of dates will not be auto-formatted because MOSNUM will have told editors they can be lazy and omit the commas, resulting in malformed dates when the square-brackets are removed for implementation of the new date coding system. For this reason, I correct cases of [[February 29]] [[2007]]
on sight. PS: The idea of "oh, well, the smart autoparser can just recognize that format too" does not fly, because WP is open content, meaning that it can be reused in any way that people want, including selectively downloading the wiki, not HTML source and stripping out what they don't like and reworking it; we have no guarantee at all that the MediaWiki parser will be used in any particular case of legitimate re-use of WP content. We cannot permit invalid content just because we're lazy and we assume (in some cases falsely) that tricky aspects of the MediaWiki code transmogrification process will compensate for our errors. By way of analogy, it would be trivial for the MW developers to install code that corrected on-the-fly all instances of "hte" and "corect" so that they were spelled correctly by the time the code was rendered in the browser window, without actually correcting these errors in the source code. No way, José. We have bots (and humans) correcting the source for a reason. This is why you will probably notice plenty of people going around and correcting cases of <br />
to <br />
. It simply doesn't matter that MW is smart enough to send the latter to the browser on-the-fly without correcting the source. The source has to be clean. A very probable (maybe already common!) use case for repurposing WP content is to get the WP database, load it into a customized instance of MW, remove all unwanted templates, subst all the rest of them with a bot, and replace all wikimarkup with its XHTML equivalents, then export the resulting lovely, validating XHTML code to a completely different kind of server. Not correcting <br />
and not fixing [[February 29]] [[2007]]
in the wiki code itself is going to really screw up that kind of WP content re-use. —
SMcCandlish [
talk] [
cont] ‹(-¿-)›
01:07, 5 April 2008 (UTC)
"...I thought it was <nowiki>ISBN 978-1-59874-011-0</nowiki> but it wasn't..."
, which renders as "...I thought it was ISBN 978-1-59874-011-0 but it wasn't...", as it should. We do this stuff all the time, like when you need to italicize something that begins with an apostrophe, etc., etc., etc. —
SMcCandlish [
talk] [
cont] ‹(-¿-)›
05:50, 5 April 2008 (UTC)SMcCandlish is right on the mark: we should not count on questionable MW software to correct our sloppiness. I have added green check marks to the table to show what is approved by this manual. Chris the speller ( talk) 18:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)
I encourage you, Chris, to come on back and get back into the saddle soon after the sting wears off. I really think MOSNUM needs an infusion of new blood. I’m not suggesting that there is anything wrong with the current “regulars”—not at all; we need old-timers to help keep us on track and explain history to us so we aren’t doomed to repeat past mistakes. On the other hand, I think it was wrong for a new arrival to get so soundly stomped on over such a trivial issue as the relative aesthetics of a checkmark. One of the editors posted this for their edit comment when he/she deleted your check marks: “removing yet more ugly check marks; approved by who?” Someone please correct me if I’m wrong here, but anyone can make minor edits on MOSNUM. Yes, like anything else on Wikipedia, those changes can always be reverted when another editor disagrees. But I don’t think Chris needed “approval” from one of the regulars around here to add them.
May I suggest we try to be a bit more accommodating to outsiders here? I think Chris the speller is feeling a bit like the first female firefighter to try to join the NY City Fire Department: more than a bit unwelcome. Only, what is at stake here isn’t as important as the physical ability of a firefighter to “ carry a 200-lb mayor out of a burning building”. Talk:MOSNUM is a market for the exchange of thought. I hate to sound like a University poster-boy for politically correct slogans, but some extra diversity of opinion can be very helpful on MOSNUM and we need to help newcomers to feel welcome. If there was more “history” to this spat than is apparent and this issue was just a “straw that broke the camel’s back” so to speak, I apologize for interceding without having researched this better. But at this point, I’m just not seeing a good justification for what lead up to Chris calling it quits on MOSNUM. Greg L ( my talk) 05:04, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
We already had this discussion in early February after I pointed out the table showed the wrong rendered formats for the comma cases. Chris the speller then placed red checkmarks with the comma cases, which I removed since they do render to one of the standard date formats, and we came to an agreement to have the double-asterisk ** note. Or so I thought. Sorry for being a bit abrupt, but I was surprised when the same edit appeared a couple days ago claiming some forms were now "approved".
I think it's a bad idea to list "approved forms" for wikitext. If it doesn't concern appearance, it shouldn't concern the Manual of Style, which is a guide for the style and formatting of articles as they are read. The MoS discusses wikitext occasionally to note alternatives producing the same rendered page, such as either one or two spaces after a period. As far as I know, we don't have MoS pages telling people to only use one space, or to write <br />, or to format cite templates with one field per line, or to use cite templates rather than hand-written references. Or do we now? Gimmetrow 07:26, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
It's been a while so perhaps things have settled, and I've asked Chris the speller back. I think our goals are not incompatible. I mainly want these edits (switching commas around in wikilinked dates) to stop, and I think the solution is to redesign the table more substantially.
We should just list the basic forms which produce autolinking. When discussing the redlink forms there is no need to show how they look under different format prefs since they don't change. Finally, observe that some variations in commas and spacing in the wikitext produce the same rendered forms, and there is no need to add or remove commas. I would even go so far as to say if there is any dispute about the wikitext, it should match the displayed form. I'm seeimg some editors even removing *spaces*: [[1 January]][[2001]] and [[January 1]][[2001]] render as 1 January 2001 and January 1 2001. This needs to stop. Gimmetrow 04:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
Adding below. The table currently live on the page is mistaken in how [[15 May]] is rendered under different preferences. Gimmetrow 05:26, 18 April 2008 (UTC)
(outdent) I totally agree with SMcCandlish on the matter of commas in dates, unless I'm missing something. My wording in the draft below does not conflict with his comments, as far as I can see. Chris the speller ( talk) 20:32, 5 May 2008 (UTC)
What you type | What logged-in registered users see (settings on first row) | What others will see* | |||||
---|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
-- | January 15, 2001 | 15 January 2001 | 2001 January 15 | 2001-01-15 | No preference | -- | |
[[May 15]] | May 15 | 15 May | May 15 | May 15 | May 15 | May 15 | |
[[15 May]] | May 15 | 15 May | 15 May | 15 May | 15 May | 15 May | |
[[May 15]], [[2005]] | May 15, 2005 | 15 May 2005 | 2005 May 15 | 2005- 05-15 | May 15, 2005 | May 15, 2005 | |
[[15 May]] [[2005]] | May 15, 2005 | 15 May 2005 | 2005 May 15 | 2005- 05-15 | 15 May 2005 | 15 May 2005 | |
[[2005-05-15]] | May 15, 2005 | 15 May 2005 | 2005 May 15 | 2005- 05-15 | 2005- 05-15 | 2005- 05-15 | |
* Non-registered users and registered users not logged in |