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I have removed a thread, you know which one I mean. It was achieving nothing but the amusement of a troll, who is now gone. If you disagree with this removal, don't bother asking me, just revert me. But I dearly hope y'all can see that it was without merit. Hesperian 06:49, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
If possible, terms used to describe people should be given in such a way that they qualify other nouns. Thus, black people, not blacks; gay people, not gays; and so forth.
I think this hinges on whether you would consider words like black and gay as nouns in their own right or as adjectives as they were. If they are treated as nouns, qualifying another noun like people is not necessary; but if they are treated as adjectives then people should be included.
Then it comes back down to traditionally WP:NPOV or so as to the meaning of the word. This gives a description of the word cunt changing meaning from just a simple reference to a body part into an obscenity. Sorry but that was just the first top-of-head example and the first google hit. This is a better example: how the word nice has its meaning turned on its head. And this is a closer example that shows how using challenged as mostly a 'politically correct' euphemism (I personally disparage their use) has changed the meaning of the word itself. The point is that the meaning of a word is mutable and which to apply is necessarily a point of view in itself. Obscurans 09:21, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
...or put another way, we should avoid the passive voice :-) At least, most editors insist on the active voice. An article whose sentences all use "to be" conjugations can be tedious to read. A book mark I have handy is http://www.linuxjournal.com/xstatic/author/authguide (which is not an endorsement of LJ, just a good set of examples on passive vs. active voice). Does this type of guideline merit inclusion in the style guide? Afabbro 04:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Tony, but want to speak to Strad's concerns. I do not think there should be an outright ban on the passive voice, but in my opinion, neither does this proposed style item. I think the point is that of avoiding the passive voice. The passive voice leaves out the actor in an action, and as such, it can tend to leave out noteworthy information. Therefore, I think this item really intends to say that you should examine your writing for statements made in the passive voice because they can sometimes leave out critical details that, when included, contribute to a more factual article. So I support the addition of this item, as long as it addresses why an author should avoid the passive voice, and consequently, gives the author room to use the passive voice when it doesn't detract from the writing. — Ke6jjj 19:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Many pages contain a "list of famous X people" or "notable X people" and similar...as a random example, the Able Seaman (occupation) page has a list of "Notable Able Seamen". Should it be a standard that these lists are maintained in alphabetical order? Afabbro 05:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I've tried to rework this section. But I'm confused. Here are the existing and proposed versions. I'm sure I haven't got it right. In particular, I can't work out whether or not the existing version means that original non-Latin scripts must be provided. (In addition, I wonder whether it should be a section rather than a subsection of italics, since it involves spelling, too.)
EXISTING
Wikipedia prefers italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words that do not yet have common use in the English language. Use anglicized spellings for such words, or use the native spellings if they use the Latin alphabet (with or without diacritics).
Loan words or phrases that have common use in English, however— praetor, Gestapo, samurai, esprit de corps—do not require italicization. If looking for a good rule of thumb, do not italicize words that appear in an English language dictionary. Per the guide to writing better Wikipedia articles, use foreign words sparingly, and include native spellings in non-Latin scripts in parentheses. Native spellings in non-Latin scripts (such as Greek or Cyrillic) should not be italicized at all, even where this is technically feasible; the difference of script suffices.
PROPOSED
Foreign words are used sparingly.
The four indicative expressions—one passive and two active—are :
I've used a combination of these three, but I see that my choice may have been uncomfortable in the example you gave; you may be right about that distinction between rules and convention. But ... take the first para in "Article titles":
If possible, the article’s topic is the subject of the first sentence of the article, for example, “This Manual of Style is a style guide” instead of “This style guide is known as …”. If the article title is an important term, it appears as early as possible. The first (and only the first) appearance of the title is in boldface, including its abbreviation in parentheses, if given. Equivalent names may follow, and may or may not be in boldface. Highlighted items are not linked, and boldface is not used subsequently in the first paragraph.
These are all conventions, but when you read it as a whole, it may be OK. How would you rephrase it? Is the imperative the only way? Tony 10:38, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotations
Two issues, IMO:
1. The insertion of non-breaking spaces is disputed in an inline comment, and frankly, the example of " ' " looks very odd. What to do?
2. Is it necessary to have those ugly dotted-line boxes for the examples of block quotes? I'm half inclined to get rid of these examples on the basis that the MOS is not a "how to" guide. For that, people can go elsewhere, surely? Tony 08:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
“ ”
(maybe also ‘ ’
) and ’
as the apostrophe; but as the MoS is mostly made by lazy authors thinking about themselves first this has not and will not achieve consensus. Luckily, neither does your proposal. We do use typographic dashes and many other lingual versions of WP prefer and use typographic quotation marks of different styles without many problems."
and Shift+# being '
). Otherwise try Alt or Option and the curly and square bracket keys.
Christoph Päper
12:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC)Regarding dashes, see Talk:Dash#font differences. ∞ ΣɛÞ² ( τ| c) 12:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
It's possible that I'm just confused as to this guideline, but it seems to me that "If the topic of an article has no name, and the title is simply descriptive—like Effects of Hurricane Isabel in Delaware or Electrical characteristics of a dynamic loudspeaker—the title does not need to appear verbatim in the main text; if it does, it is not in boldface" would apply to an article like global warming controversy, which starts "The global warming controversy is a debate...". However, when I unbolded the title there I was reverted and told that MoS mandates that it be bolded. My understanding of this guideline is that if an article title is general like that the title shouldn't be bolded. Am I missing something? Oren0 22:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Existing
If the topic of an article has no name, and the title is simply descriptive—like Effects of Hurricane Isabel in Delaware or Electrical characteristics of a dynamic loudspeaker—the title does not need to appear verbatim in the main text; if it does, it is not in boldface:
A dynamic loudspeaker driver’s chief electrical characteristics can be shown as a curve, representing the …
Better?
If an article title is simply descriptive, particularly if it is long—such as Effects of Hurricane Isabel in Delaware or Electrical characteristics of a dynamic loudspeaker—it does not need to appear verbatim in the main text; if it does, it is not in boldface.
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 75 | Archive 76 | Archive 77 | Archive 78 | Archive 79 | Archive 80 | → | Archive 85 |
I have removed a thread, you know which one I mean. It was achieving nothing but the amusement of a troll, who is now gone. If you disagree with this removal, don't bother asking me, just revert me. But I dearly hope y'all can see that it was without merit. Hesperian 06:49, 25 May 2007 (UTC)
If possible, terms used to describe people should be given in such a way that they qualify other nouns. Thus, black people, not blacks; gay people, not gays; and so forth.
I think this hinges on whether you would consider words like black and gay as nouns in their own right or as adjectives as they were. If they are treated as nouns, qualifying another noun like people is not necessary; but if they are treated as adjectives then people should be included.
Then it comes back down to traditionally WP:NPOV or so as to the meaning of the word. This gives a description of the word cunt changing meaning from just a simple reference to a body part into an obscenity. Sorry but that was just the first top-of-head example and the first google hit. This is a better example: how the word nice has its meaning turned on its head. And this is a closer example that shows how using challenged as mostly a 'politically correct' euphemism (I personally disparage their use) has changed the meaning of the word itself. The point is that the meaning of a word is mutable and which to apply is necessarily a point of view in itself. Obscurans 09:21, 26 May 2007 (UTC)
...or put another way, we should avoid the passive voice :-) At least, most editors insist on the active voice. An article whose sentences all use "to be" conjugations can be tedious to read. A book mark I have handy is http://www.linuxjournal.com/xstatic/author/authguide (which is not an endorsement of LJ, just a good set of examples on passive vs. active voice). Does this type of guideline merit inclusion in the style guide? Afabbro 04:15, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Tony, but want to speak to Strad's concerns. I do not think there should be an outright ban on the passive voice, but in my opinion, neither does this proposed style item. I think the point is that of avoiding the passive voice. The passive voice leaves out the actor in an action, and as such, it can tend to leave out noteworthy information. Therefore, I think this item really intends to say that you should examine your writing for statements made in the passive voice because they can sometimes leave out critical details that, when included, contribute to a more factual article. So I support the addition of this item, as long as it addresses why an author should avoid the passive voice, and consequently, gives the author room to use the passive voice when it doesn't detract from the writing. — Ke6jjj 19:49, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
Many pages contain a "list of famous X people" or "notable X people" and similar...as a random example, the Able Seaman (occupation) page has a list of "Notable Able Seamen". Should it be a standard that these lists are maintained in alphabetical order? Afabbro 05:29, 27 May 2007 (UTC)
I've tried to rework this section. But I'm confused. Here are the existing and proposed versions. I'm sure I haven't got it right. In particular, I can't work out whether or not the existing version means that original non-Latin scripts must be provided. (In addition, I wonder whether it should be a section rather than a subsection of italics, since it involves spelling, too.)
EXISTING
Wikipedia prefers italics for phrases in other languages and for isolated foreign words that do not yet have common use in the English language. Use anglicized spellings for such words, or use the native spellings if they use the Latin alphabet (with or without diacritics).
Loan words or phrases that have common use in English, however— praetor, Gestapo, samurai, esprit de corps—do not require italicization. If looking for a good rule of thumb, do not italicize words that appear in an English language dictionary. Per the guide to writing better Wikipedia articles, use foreign words sparingly, and include native spellings in non-Latin scripts in parentheses. Native spellings in non-Latin scripts (such as Greek or Cyrillic) should not be italicized at all, even where this is technically feasible; the difference of script suffices.
PROPOSED
Foreign words are used sparingly.
The four indicative expressions—one passive and two active—are :
I've used a combination of these three, but I see that my choice may have been uncomfortable in the example you gave; you may be right about that distinction between rules and convention. But ... take the first para in "Article titles":
If possible, the article’s topic is the subject of the first sentence of the article, for example, “This Manual of Style is a style guide” instead of “This style guide is known as …”. If the article title is an important term, it appears as early as possible. The first (and only the first) appearance of the title is in boldface, including its abbreviation in parentheses, if given. Equivalent names may follow, and may or may not be in boldface. Highlighted items are not linked, and boldface is not used subsequently in the first paragraph.
These are all conventions, but when you read it as a whole, it may be OK. How would you rephrase it? Is the imperative the only way? Tony 10:38, 4 June 2007 (UTC)
Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Quotations
Two issues, IMO:
1. The insertion of non-breaking spaces is disputed in an inline comment, and frankly, the example of " ' " looks very odd. What to do?
2. Is it necessary to have those ugly dotted-line boxes for the examples of block quotes? I'm half inclined to get rid of these examples on the basis that the MOS is not a "how to" guide. For that, people can go elsewhere, surely? Tony 08:57, 28 May 2007 (UTC)
“ ”
(maybe also ‘ ’
) and ’
as the apostrophe; but as the MoS is mostly made by lazy authors thinking about themselves first this has not and will not achieve consensus. Luckily, neither does your proposal. We do use typographic dashes and many other lingual versions of WP prefer and use typographic quotation marks of different styles without many problems."
and Shift+# being '
). Otherwise try Alt or Option and the curly and square bracket keys.
Christoph Päper
12:25, 2 June 2007 (UTC)Regarding dashes, see Talk:Dash#font differences. ∞ ΣɛÞ² ( τ| c) 12:37, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
It's possible that I'm just confused as to this guideline, but it seems to me that "If the topic of an article has no name, and the title is simply descriptive—like Effects of Hurricane Isabel in Delaware or Electrical characteristics of a dynamic loudspeaker—the title does not need to appear verbatim in the main text; if it does, it is not in boldface" would apply to an article like global warming controversy, which starts "The global warming controversy is a debate...". However, when I unbolded the title there I was reverted and told that MoS mandates that it be bolded. My understanding of this guideline is that if an article title is general like that the title shouldn't be bolded. Am I missing something? Oren0 22:50, 29 May 2007 (UTC)
Existing
If the topic of an article has no name, and the title is simply descriptive—like Effects of Hurricane Isabel in Delaware or Electrical characteristics of a dynamic loudspeaker—the title does not need to appear verbatim in the main text; if it does, it is not in boldface:
A dynamic loudspeaker driver’s chief electrical characteristics can be shown as a curve, representing the …
Better?
If an article title is simply descriptive, particularly if it is long—such as Effects of Hurricane Isabel in Delaware or Electrical characteristics of a dynamic loudspeaker—it does not need to appear verbatim in the main text; if it does, it is not in boldface.