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In the national varieties section:
- When abbreviating United States, please use "U.S."; that is the more common style in that country, is easier to search for automatically, and we want one uniform style on this. When referring to the United States in a long abbreviation (USA, USN, USAF), periods should not be used.
That is just a stupid plead and should be removed. It is totally inconsequent to use ‘U.S.’, but ‘USA’ and ‘UK’. It really looks awkward when being used in the same sentence, yet some editors take the above plead as a rule and change all instances of ‘US’ to ‘U.S.’ or even ‘U. S.’ (and nothing else). To save my contributions from such morons I, and thus myself from edit wars, I now use the expanded form way too often, which has also to affect similar abbreviations nearby. A good search engine would treat them the same anyway, Google does AFAIK. Christoph Päper 16:26, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I think you're entirely right, Christoph, and in practice you're unlikely to get into a revert war if you use "US" in an article that otherwise does not use stops afte initials. It seems silly to keep this guidance there (and it leads to some silly presentations about articles going on about the UN, UK, but the "U.S.". Surely if an article uses stops after all initials appearing in it, the you'd use "U.S.", if an article doesn't use stops after all other initials it has, then use "US"?, jguk 17:12, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
You're right, it would have been better for Christoph not to have referred to "morons" - especially as it detracts from his underlying point, which is a good one, jguk 10:39, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with the recommendation's claim that "U.S." is more common form in the US. It has always been my understanding that lowercase abbreviations require dots and uppercase abbreviations require no dots. So: a.k.a., d.o.b., a.m., p.m., abbr., etc. And FBI, IBM, US, UK, AM, PM, GI, ZIP code, and so on, with the modern trend being toward more UC abbreviations. (Acronyms, however, are words: laser, radar, sonar.) No other treatment makes any sense. The only exception is to use dots with uppercase abbreviations when you write a headline like CNN's crawl: BULGARIANS HATE U.S. I'm all for starting a consensus to change the recommendation. -- Tysto 05:55, 2005 August 4 (UTC)
The GPO Style Manual (of which the 29th edition issued in 2000 is the latest) specifies the following rules on abbreviating United States. (With my comments in italics and parenthesis.)
9.7. Abbreviations and initials of a personal name with points are set without spaces. Abbreviations composed of contractions and initials or numbers, will retain space. (This means that "U. S." is incorrect, but this rule is silent over the issue of whether to use "U.S." or "US".)
9.9. United States must be spelled out when appearing in a sentence containing the name of another country. The abbreviation U.S. will be used when preceding the word Government or the name of a Government organization, except in formal writing (treaties, Executive orders, proclamations, etc.); congressional bills; legal citations and courtwork; and covers and title pages. (This rule is the source of the preference for "U.S." over "US" except in specific contexts. Note however, that in a list of countries, the United States should not be abbreviated.)
9.10. With the exceptions in the above rule, the abbreviation U.S. is used in the adjective position, but is spelled out when used as a noun.
9.60. The following are some of the abbreviations and symbols used for indicating money:
Use “US$” if omission would result in confusion. (This rule would seem to argue against using “US dollar”, but “U.S. dollar”, “US$”, or ISO 4217's code of “USD” depending upon the context when abbreviating United States dollar.)
Obviously the above rules from the style manual won't cover all cases, but they serve as a good first approximation. Caerwine 15:17, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Getting back to the point, is the preferred way forward just to delete the guidance or to replace it with something that says that articles should be consistent in either always using dots after each letter of a two-letter abbreviation, or in not using dots after each letter of a two-letter abbreviation? jguk 17:14, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
The following comments have recently appeared on the discussion page for the US. May I put in a plea to those who wish to retain dots, that there is a solid trend all over the English-speaking world to minimise the use of dots in initialisms. Apart from the other good reasons to drop them from 'U.S.', why not lead the trend rather than drag behind?
PASTED IN: I wonder whether contributors support the idea that it would be neater and easier to read if the nation were referred to simply as 'the US', i.e., without the dots; that is, after the opening, and in all instances for which there's no good reason to use one of the longer names. Currently, usage in this respect is inconsistent. Tony 05:23, 29 July 2005 (UTC) If you want to make it consistent, better use U.S.A., because only US is not very descriptive. −Woodstone 08:10, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
in context of this article, what could anyone confuse US with? Gabrielsimon 08:12, 29 July 2005 (UTC) Agree with Woodstone, we should use U.S.A., instead of "the US." --Gramaic | Talk 08:17, 29 July 2005 (UTC) USA instead of U.S.A.? (SEWilco 15:22, 29 July 2005 (UTC)) I'd rather spell it out as 'the United States' than use 'U dot S dot A dot', which, although an accepted abbreviation, is (1) one letter too many in this highly focused—and already too long—text, and (2) looks much neater, in my veiw, without the dots (nowadays, who spells NASA, NATO, PBS, ABC, and most other acronyms with the dots?). I'd still opt for 'the US'. 'The USA' sounds pedantic, as though you're shortening it, but then partially retracting the brevity. 'The United States' is attractive, but the article is far too long as a single text for most readers of Wikipedia, and spelling it out on its numerous occurrences will worsen that problem. In addition, 'US' can also be used as an epithet ('the US peace mission', 'US interest rates') whereas 'USA' sits awkwardly in that respect. 'The US' has a high recognition factor worldwide; no one will mistake it for 'us', as in 'we, us, they, them', even momentarily. Tony 02:58, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Tony 12:57, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
I have no problem with articles that use the convention of using dots in two-letter abbreviations using the abbreviation "U.S.". From what you say, most articles written in American English will already use that convention. The question here is whether, in an article that otherwise doesn't use dots for two-letter abbreviations, which Tony argues is the worldwide trend towards doing things (and this is certainly true outside N America), should an exception be made for the abbreviation "US" (and for this abbreviation alone) - and I can't for the life of me see a good reason why, jguk 19:15, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Seems that although it has some supporters, there isn't exactly a lot of support for the current guidance. Should we just delete it, or is it best to put something else in its place? jguk 18:14, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I know this is somewhat orthogonal to the issue at hand, but I think it merits mention: one of the arguments given against using the full expansion United States for US/U.S./U. S. is that "the article is too long already". I feel that that the implication here, namely that a long article should adopt the use of abbreviations as a technique to avoid being too long, is patently wrong. Wikipedia is not paper—if an article is too long, then what we have is a problem with organization, and no amount of using abbreviations is going to fix it. The use of abbreviations can only make an article more ambiguous and more opaque, and we should always be striving for less ambiguity and less opacity. Nohat 08:11, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Again, I see no consensus to change the style. If anything, it looks like the split is about even. Maurreen (talk) 02:39, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
IMO, a guideline should need both consensus to add and consensus to remain - and this one clearly has no consensus to remain, even if there is no 80% in favour of a replacement as yet. It also tends not to be observed in many articles that do not have dots after other two-letter abbreviations anyway. I've offered comments above on a possible formulation that may enjoy consensus, and would welcome positive comments and other ideas in constructing one, jguk 06:34, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I would support deleting the current guideline in favor of changing "Proper names should retain their original spellings, for example, United States Department of Defense and Australian Defence Force." to "Proper names should retain their original spellings and punctuations, for example, U.S. Department of Defense and Australian Defence Force." Otherwise, I oppose removal. I still don't see how punctuation and spellings are different from it comes to proper names. -- Ji ang 07:26, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
The proper name of the US Department of Defence is "United States Department of Defense" not "U.S. Department of Defense". On the punctuation front, I think what you propose is neither practical nor desirable. It would mean that every time you have an abbreviation you'd need to research into whether it should or should not have dots - and then you'd have to decide what to do with abbreviations where there is no one firm rule. It would make articles look silly to refer to, say : "XY, K.Z., WUDJ, DH and J.D.L.E. ....", and would clearly give no benefit to the reader. The other problem with the guideline is, whether rightly or wrongly, it gives the appearance of saying America is different from the rest - and it is the edit wars that derived from this that started this discussion (see above). Why, of all possible abbreviations should we single out "US" for a special rule? And how do you really think that goes down with non-Americans? jguk 07:48, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Here's a compromise proposal -- replace the current paragraph with the following:
Here's my compromise proposal, tweaked slightly from above -- replace the current paragraph with the following:
The problem with this is that it implicitly restates the current guideline, for which there is no consensus to keep (or indeed remove), and by trying to summarise a long guideline on identity restates it in an impractical way. Our style is emphatically not to always "use terminology that subjects use for themselves" - as can be seen in many an article about a criminal and/or politician.
As of yet you have not responded to my comments above or answered the questions I raised. I'd be grateful if you would, jguk 07:20, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
#"We are not here to write autobiographies ..." -- Haven't you worked on many articles about cricket players?
Maurreen, since you say it is no big deal, why do you argue so strongly for the retention of the guideline. If it's no big deal, shouldn't you be neutral on this? jguk 18:30, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Riddles? What about getting rid of the guideline? Though to be honest, as long as no-one actually tries to copy-edit to impose it, it won't make a difference either way. If someone does try to copyedit to impose it, there will be much acrimony (and not just from me), jguk 20:17, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Maurreen - the WP approach is a "be bold" approach - if something is added with which people disagree, it soon gets removed and discussed on the talk page, so you can't blame me for that.
All - I have removed the bit which clearly no longer has consensus (and probably hasn't done so for months). There remains the question of whether anything (that does have consensus) should replace it. I'm not convinced that there are any benefits in replacing it. Punctuation rules have some flexibility within each form of standard English as it is. There are also some very noticeable dialectal differences,
jguk 07:27, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Removing the guidance about using dots for U.S. was not warranted, in my view. It is the common use. It serves the purpose of clarity for the reader, distinguishing from the pronoun "US". There was no consensus for removing it; most comments here, in fact, are in favor of keeping. It should be restored. Jonathunder 16:41, 2005 August 14 (UTC)
We are not adopting the GPO style guide (nor, indeed, any other style guide). The sooner we ignore the GPO the better, jguk 18:54, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
This discussion baffles me. You cannot omit the periods from abbreviations that are easily confused with words. This is why publication style guides in the U.S. with which I'm familiar call for periods in abbreviating the United States. . Follow Associated Press, NYT, Washington Post, and most other newspaper style guides. (Most also rule out use of USA -- except USA Today, which loves using that abbreviation because it's part of its name.) In guidelines, clarity is key. FBI and UK and WTO are fine, US is not. DavidH 03:17, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
Watch me care what US lawyers think ... Tony 08:00, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I have one comment to make on this discussion. Let's just pick one way to abbreviate United States. Hell, we can flip a coin. It really doesn't matter, but its just a cop-out to say: "everyone just do it how they want". Firstly, it just leads to edit wars. Seconday, don't we want some consistency in Wikipedia? If not, let's just do away with the MoS altogether. Chuck 16:08, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I'd propose the following, modeled on the "National varieties of English" principles: There are two ways to abbreviate United States, U.S. and US. A majority of American style guides recommend U.S., so this is the suggested usage for articles about the United States and its institutions. There may be circumstances where US is preferable, for example where other two-letter abbreviations such as UK and UN are used. Articles that are consistent in their usage of either U.S. or US should not be edited to use the other form without good reason and advance consultation on the discussion page. -- agr 12:39, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
It's high time that Americans caught up with the rest of the English-speaking world, and dropped the dots. Dots have been receding from English-language formatting of initialisms and acronyms for decades now, with good reason: they are ugly, harder to read, and in most cases, redundant. Everyone else uses 'US'; why persist with 'U dot S dot'? Please don't take the same attitude to the language as you do with respect to weights and measures. Tony 08:06, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 15 | ← | Archive 19 | Archive 20 | Archive 21 | Archive 22 | Archive 23 | → | Archive 25 |
In the national varieties section:
- When abbreviating United States, please use "U.S."; that is the more common style in that country, is easier to search for automatically, and we want one uniform style on this. When referring to the United States in a long abbreviation (USA, USN, USAF), periods should not be used.
That is just a stupid plead and should be removed. It is totally inconsequent to use ‘U.S.’, but ‘USA’ and ‘UK’. It really looks awkward when being used in the same sentence, yet some editors take the above plead as a rule and change all instances of ‘US’ to ‘U.S.’ or even ‘U. S.’ (and nothing else). To save my contributions from such morons I, and thus myself from edit wars, I now use the expanded form way too often, which has also to affect similar abbreviations nearby. A good search engine would treat them the same anyway, Google does AFAIK. Christoph Päper 16:26, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
I think you're entirely right, Christoph, and in practice you're unlikely to get into a revert war if you use "US" in an article that otherwise does not use stops afte initials. It seems silly to keep this guidance there (and it leads to some silly presentations about articles going on about the UN, UK, but the "U.S.". Surely if an article uses stops after all initials appearing in it, the you'd use "U.S.", if an article doesn't use stops after all other initials it has, then use "US"?, jguk 17:12, 26 July 2005 (UTC)
You're right, it would have been better for Christoph not to have referred to "morons" - especially as it detracts from his underlying point, which is a good one, jguk 10:39, 29 July 2005 (UTC)
I disagree with the recommendation's claim that "U.S." is more common form in the US. It has always been my understanding that lowercase abbreviations require dots and uppercase abbreviations require no dots. So: a.k.a., d.o.b., a.m., p.m., abbr., etc. And FBI, IBM, US, UK, AM, PM, GI, ZIP code, and so on, with the modern trend being toward more UC abbreviations. (Acronyms, however, are words: laser, radar, sonar.) No other treatment makes any sense. The only exception is to use dots with uppercase abbreviations when you write a headline like CNN's crawl: BULGARIANS HATE U.S. I'm all for starting a consensus to change the recommendation. -- Tysto 05:55, 2005 August 4 (UTC)
The GPO Style Manual (of which the 29th edition issued in 2000 is the latest) specifies the following rules on abbreviating United States. (With my comments in italics and parenthesis.)
9.7. Abbreviations and initials of a personal name with points are set without spaces. Abbreviations composed of contractions and initials or numbers, will retain space. (This means that "U. S." is incorrect, but this rule is silent over the issue of whether to use "U.S." or "US".)
9.9. United States must be spelled out when appearing in a sentence containing the name of another country. The abbreviation U.S. will be used when preceding the word Government or the name of a Government organization, except in formal writing (treaties, Executive orders, proclamations, etc.); congressional bills; legal citations and courtwork; and covers and title pages. (This rule is the source of the preference for "U.S." over "US" except in specific contexts. Note however, that in a list of countries, the United States should not be abbreviated.)
9.10. With the exceptions in the above rule, the abbreviation U.S. is used in the adjective position, but is spelled out when used as a noun.
9.60. The following are some of the abbreviations and symbols used for indicating money:
Use “US$” if omission would result in confusion. (This rule would seem to argue against using “US dollar”, but “U.S. dollar”, “US$”, or ISO 4217's code of “USD” depending upon the context when abbreviating United States dollar.)
Obviously the above rules from the style manual won't cover all cases, but they serve as a good first approximation. Caerwine 15:17, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Getting back to the point, is the preferred way forward just to delete the guidance or to replace it with something that says that articles should be consistent in either always using dots after each letter of a two-letter abbreviation, or in not using dots after each letter of a two-letter abbreviation? jguk 17:14, 31 July 2005 (UTC)
The following comments have recently appeared on the discussion page for the US. May I put in a plea to those who wish to retain dots, that there is a solid trend all over the English-speaking world to minimise the use of dots in initialisms. Apart from the other good reasons to drop them from 'U.S.', why not lead the trend rather than drag behind?
PASTED IN: I wonder whether contributors support the idea that it would be neater and easier to read if the nation were referred to simply as 'the US', i.e., without the dots; that is, after the opening, and in all instances for which there's no good reason to use one of the longer names. Currently, usage in this respect is inconsistent. Tony 05:23, 29 July 2005 (UTC) If you want to make it consistent, better use U.S.A., because only US is not very descriptive. −Woodstone 08:10, July 29, 2005 (UTC)
in context of this article, what could anyone confuse US with? Gabrielsimon 08:12, 29 July 2005 (UTC) Agree with Woodstone, we should use U.S.A., instead of "the US." --Gramaic | Talk 08:17, 29 July 2005 (UTC) USA instead of U.S.A.? (SEWilco 15:22, 29 July 2005 (UTC)) I'd rather spell it out as 'the United States' than use 'U dot S dot A dot', which, although an accepted abbreviation, is (1) one letter too many in this highly focused—and already too long—text, and (2) looks much neater, in my veiw, without the dots (nowadays, who spells NASA, NATO, PBS, ABC, and most other acronyms with the dots?). I'd still opt for 'the US'. 'The USA' sounds pedantic, as though you're shortening it, but then partially retracting the brevity. 'The United States' is attractive, but the article is far too long as a single text for most readers of Wikipedia, and spelling it out on its numerous occurrences will worsen that problem. In addition, 'US' can also be used as an epithet ('the US peace mission', 'US interest rates') whereas 'USA' sits awkwardly in that respect. 'The US' has a high recognition factor worldwide; no one will mistake it for 'us', as in 'we, us, they, them', even momentarily. Tony 02:58, 30 July 2005 (UTC)
Tony 12:57, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
I have no problem with articles that use the convention of using dots in two-letter abbreviations using the abbreviation "U.S.". From what you say, most articles written in American English will already use that convention. The question here is whether, in an article that otherwise doesn't use dots for two-letter abbreviations, which Tony argues is the worldwide trend towards doing things (and this is certainly true outside N America), should an exception be made for the abbreviation "US" (and for this abbreviation alone) - and I can't for the life of me see a good reason why, jguk 19:15, 2 August 2005 (UTC)
Seems that although it has some supporters, there isn't exactly a lot of support for the current guidance. Should we just delete it, or is it best to put something else in its place? jguk 18:14, 4 August 2005 (UTC)
I know this is somewhat orthogonal to the issue at hand, but I think it merits mention: one of the arguments given against using the full expansion United States for US/U.S./U. S. is that "the article is too long already". I feel that that the implication here, namely that a long article should adopt the use of abbreviations as a technique to avoid being too long, is patently wrong. Wikipedia is not paper—if an article is too long, then what we have is a problem with organization, and no amount of using abbreviations is going to fix it. The use of abbreviations can only make an article more ambiguous and more opaque, and we should always be striving for less ambiguity and less opacity. Nohat 08:11, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Again, I see no consensus to change the style. If anything, it looks like the split is about even. Maurreen (talk) 02:39, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
IMO, a guideline should need both consensus to add and consensus to remain - and this one clearly has no consensus to remain, even if there is no 80% in favour of a replacement as yet. It also tends not to be observed in many articles that do not have dots after other two-letter abbreviations anyway. I've offered comments above on a possible formulation that may enjoy consensus, and would welcome positive comments and other ideas in constructing one, jguk 06:34, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
I would support deleting the current guideline in favor of changing "Proper names should retain their original spellings, for example, United States Department of Defense and Australian Defence Force." to "Proper names should retain their original spellings and punctuations, for example, U.S. Department of Defense and Australian Defence Force." Otherwise, I oppose removal. I still don't see how punctuation and spellings are different from it comes to proper names. -- Ji ang 07:26, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
The proper name of the US Department of Defence is "United States Department of Defense" not "U.S. Department of Defense". On the punctuation front, I think what you propose is neither practical nor desirable. It would mean that every time you have an abbreviation you'd need to research into whether it should or should not have dots - and then you'd have to decide what to do with abbreviations where there is no one firm rule. It would make articles look silly to refer to, say : "XY, K.Z., WUDJ, DH and J.D.L.E. ....", and would clearly give no benefit to the reader. The other problem with the guideline is, whether rightly or wrongly, it gives the appearance of saying America is different from the rest - and it is the edit wars that derived from this that started this discussion (see above). Why, of all possible abbreviations should we single out "US" for a special rule? And how do you really think that goes down with non-Americans? jguk 07:48, 5 August 2005 (UTC)
Here's a compromise proposal -- replace the current paragraph with the following:
Here's my compromise proposal, tweaked slightly from above -- replace the current paragraph with the following:
The problem with this is that it implicitly restates the current guideline, for which there is no consensus to keep (or indeed remove), and by trying to summarise a long guideline on identity restates it in an impractical way. Our style is emphatically not to always "use terminology that subjects use for themselves" - as can be seen in many an article about a criminal and/or politician.
As of yet you have not responded to my comments above or answered the questions I raised. I'd be grateful if you would, jguk 07:20, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
#"We are not here to write autobiographies ..." -- Haven't you worked on many articles about cricket players?
Maurreen, since you say it is no big deal, why do you argue so strongly for the retention of the guideline. If it's no big deal, shouldn't you be neutral on this? jguk 18:30, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Riddles? What about getting rid of the guideline? Though to be honest, as long as no-one actually tries to copy-edit to impose it, it won't make a difference either way. If someone does try to copyedit to impose it, there will be much acrimony (and not just from me), jguk 20:17, 6 August 2005 (UTC)
Maurreen - the WP approach is a "be bold" approach - if something is added with which people disagree, it soon gets removed and discussed on the talk page, so you can't blame me for that.
All - I have removed the bit which clearly no longer has consensus (and probably hasn't done so for months). There remains the question of whether anything (that does have consensus) should replace it. I'm not convinced that there are any benefits in replacing it. Punctuation rules have some flexibility within each form of standard English as it is. There are also some very noticeable dialectal differences,
jguk 07:27, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
Removing the guidance about using dots for U.S. was not warranted, in my view. It is the common use. It serves the purpose of clarity for the reader, distinguishing from the pronoun "US". There was no consensus for removing it; most comments here, in fact, are in favor of keeping. It should be restored. Jonathunder 16:41, 2005 August 14 (UTC)
We are not adopting the GPO style guide (nor, indeed, any other style guide). The sooner we ignore the GPO the better, jguk 18:54, 14 August 2005 (UTC)
This discussion baffles me. You cannot omit the periods from abbreviations that are easily confused with words. This is why publication style guides in the U.S. with which I'm familiar call for periods in abbreviating the United States. . Follow Associated Press, NYT, Washington Post, and most other newspaper style guides. (Most also rule out use of USA -- except USA Today, which loves using that abbreviation because it's part of its name.) In guidelines, clarity is key. FBI and UK and WTO are fine, US is not. DavidH 03:17, August 16, 2005 (UTC)
Watch me care what US lawyers think ... Tony 08:00, 2 September 2005 (UTC)
I have one comment to make on this discussion. Let's just pick one way to abbreviate United States. Hell, we can flip a coin. It really doesn't matter, but its just a cop-out to say: "everyone just do it how they want". Firstly, it just leads to edit wars. Seconday, don't we want some consistency in Wikipedia? If not, let's just do away with the MoS altogether. Chuck 16:08, 23 August 2005 (UTC)
I'd propose the following, modeled on the "National varieties of English" principles: There are two ways to abbreviate United States, U.S. and US. A majority of American style guides recommend U.S., so this is the suggested usage for articles about the United States and its institutions. There may be circumstances where US is preferable, for example where other two-letter abbreviations such as UK and UN are used. Articles that are consistent in their usage of either U.S. or US should not be edited to use the other form without good reason and advance consultation on the discussion page. -- agr 12:39, 30 August 2005 (UTC)
It's high time that Americans caught up with the rest of the English-speaking world, and dropped the dots. Dots have been receding from English-language formatting of initialisms and acronyms for decades now, with good reason: they are ugly, harder to read, and in most cases, redundant. Everyone else uses 'US'; why persist with 'U dot S dot'? Please don't take the same attitude to the language as you do with respect to weights and measures. Tony 08:06, 2 September 2005 (UTC)