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I've been WP:BOLD and updated that section [1] (earlier draft, [2]) to better reflect actual WP editing practice, and 2017 real-world facts. The short version:
What we're missing is an instruction (not just about "US" in particular) to use the abbreviated form only as an adjective, in a parenthetical, and in tabular data – and generally only after the full name has already been given once (other than an infobox might still use an acronym). This is consistent with what many off-WP style guides advise. Some of this is implicit in
MOS:ABBR rules, but the adjective part is not. This should be added somewhere, and will markedly improve our writing over time. We far too frequently have lead sentences with things like "and is based in the UK" or "was born in the US".
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
21:32, 6 October 2017 (UTC), revised 03:03, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Done [3]. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 03:03, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
"long-standing"—US and UK style guides insist on the hyphen.
"towards ... towards tolerance of sloppy writing"
"freshman students"—but not female students.
"The same is also true of many U.S. graduate schools."
Third and fourth runs for "towards", and the grammar doesn't work: "It is inappropriate to use Wikipedia as a vehicle towards pushing American English towards ..."—"a vehicle to push" might be OK.
And do you have a copy of Chicago MOS 17th edition yet? At the moment they're doing a deal for hard-copy shipped plus a year's online subscription. Tony (talk) 06:36, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
I'll get this started, using the stack of style guides closest to my desk (leaves out some stuff like Scientific Style and Format):
10.4: Periods with abbreviations. ... Use no periods with abbreviations that appear in full capitals, whether two letters or more, and even if lowercase letters appear within the abbreviation: VP, CEO, MA, MD, PhD, UK, US, NY, IL .... 10.33: "US" versus United States. In running text, spell out United States as a noun; reserve US for the adjective form only (in which position the abbreviation is generally preferred). See also 10.4. US dollars, US involvement in China, but China's involvement in the United States.
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link) It has a side rule to use "U.S." in publications that use "traditional" US state abbreviations like "Ill." and "Calif.", but WP is not one of these, and CMoS recommends against the practice anyway. This edition's material on this is a reversal from the 15th ed. which still favored "U.S." Notably, MoS began when CMoS 15th was current, and has seen extensive revision over time to match the 16th (as it has also been being updated to match post-2010 editions of New Hart's Rules / Oxford Style Manual and Fowler's, etc., as the rest of the world does.10.4: Periods with abbreviations. ... Ues no periods with abbreviations that include two or more capital letters, even if the abbreviation also includes lowercase letters: VP, CEO, MA, MD, PhD, UK, US, NY, IL. [Also has the previous edition's rule to prefer "U.S." with "Ill." abbreviations.] 10.31: Abbreviating country names. Names of countries are usually spelled out in text but may be abbreviated in tabular matter, lists, and the like. [Recommendation to consult dictionaries for abbreviations rather than making up new ones.] ... Certain initialisms, on the other hand, may be appropriate in regular text, especially after the full form has been established .... 10.32: "US" versus "United States." Where necessary, initialisms for country names can be used in running text according to the guidelines set forth [in previous sections about overuse of abbreviations, etc.] Note that, as a matter of editorial tradition, this manual has long advised spelling out United States as a noun, reserving US for the adjective form only (where it is preferred) and for tabular matter and the like. In a departure, Chicago now permits the use of US as a noun, subject to editorial discretion and provided the meaning is clear from context. US dollars, US involvement in China, China's involvement in the United States or China's involvement in the US.
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link) Brand new edition; hasn't had much real-world impact yet. CMoS has clearly softened on its stance about nouns.Use neither periods after letters nor spaces between letters for abbrevaitions made up predominantly of capital letters: BC, DVD, NJ, PhD, US.Has no noun/adjective rules but urges (on the same page cited here) reserving abbreviations for tabular data, citations, and other compressed material.
[S]pell out in the text the names of countries, with a few exceptions (e.g. USSR). In documentation, however, abbreviate the names of states, provinces , countries, and continents. [List of abbreviations begins] ... US, USA: United States, United States of AmericaDoes not include "U.S.", nor a noun/adjective rule.
7.5 Abbreviations that consist of more than one capital letter or of capital letters only are written without full stops: ACT, RSPCA, PhD, GPO, IBRD, USA. ... 7.7: Acronyms ... Acronyms are written without full stops. 7.67: The names of countries, except for the former Soviet Union, which is usually designated USSR, should be spelt out in general text. For example: The United Kingdom, the United States, Australia, New Zealand and Japan have agreed ... not The UK, the USA, Australia, NZ and Japan have agreed .... For text, this rule should be waived only in heavily statistical or greatly condensed scientific work. 7.68: In text that uses many shortened forms, the standard abbreviations for name of countries may be used adjectivally: UK tariffs have ...; In her study of NZ foreign policy ..... 7.69: Standard abbreviations for names of countries are used in tables, figures, notes, references and bibliographies, where space considerations are important: UK, USA, Statistics Act 1975 (NZ), s 37.There may be a newer edition out now; last time I looked it was still in production, but that was a few years ago.
48d: Avoid common misuses of periods. ... Do not use periods with acronyms and other all uppercase abbreviations. [Emphasis in original.] The recent trend is not to use periods with common abbreviations for states, countries, organizations, computer programs, famous eople, and other entities: CA, NOW, MIT ... USA, MS-DOS, JFK ... HTML, AAA .... 56e: Avoid most other abbreviations in formal writing. Place names, including the names of states, countries, provinces, continents, and other locations, should not be abbreviated except in addresses and occasionally when usd as adjectives (for example, in US government).Uses dot-free acronyms throughout, except for latinisms (e.g., p.m., i.e.). Specifically illustrates
Acronyms and initialisms of more than one capital letter take no full points in British and technical usage and are closed up: TUC, MA, EU .... In some US styles certain initialisms may have full points (US/U.S.).There isn't an adjective/noun usage distinction maintained in New Hart's.
Acronyms and initialisms of more than one capital letter take no full points in British and technical usage and are closed up: TUC, MA, EU .... US English uses points in such contexts: U.S., L.A.P.D., R.E.M.This was wrong even when it was published; the two leading US style guides (CMoS for academic writing, and Associated Press Stylebook for journalism) were already condemning this, and dominant usage of "LAPD" is provable in seconds [5] by an N-gram constrained to US English and the decade leading up to publication of Ritter's book. Ritter's comment appears to be material left over from the 1980s Hart's Rules, when it might have been closer to accurate. "REM" in the sleep sense has been absolutely dominant without periods for decades [6], and in the case of the band name, it's a proper name (also from the '80s) styled however the band likes (the band consistently used the dots, but the press did not [7]).
As shortened forms for United States, these terms retain their periods, despite the modern trend to drop the periods in most initialisms. ... U.S. is best reserved for use as an adjective <U.S. foreign policy> although its use as a noun in headlines is common. In abbreviations incorporating U.S., the periods are typically dropped <USPS>, <USAF>, <USNA>.Garner seems (at first; see next entry) the primary hold-out in the style-guide world for "U.S.", and does not even acknowledge the usage shift, or that non-US usage might differ. This is weird because the current edition is taking pains to be more descriptive (even extensively using N-gram data) with hundreds of entries updated with usage-shift info; this entry was not updated. Whether this represents Garner not getting around to it or studiously avoiding it is anyone's guess. Despite being published by Oxford, this is a thoroughly American work, and Garner is not a linguist but a lawyer, steeped in legal writing (he's the editor or author of various works on legal writing); it's a register that in the US always uses U.S. except in longer acronyms like USAF. See next entry, however.
537. Use a period to indicate an abbreviated name or title. (The salutary trend, though, is to omit periods with acronyms and initialisms—hence BBC ...)I looked at every page the index said had anything to do with abbreviations, acronyms, initialisms, the period, proper names, and proper nouns. There's nothing about "U.S.", nor did I see it used in the prose while skimming, and he uses "UNESCO"-style throughout. This may be evidence that the entry in GMEU, above, simply didn't get updated since the last edition, or it may reflect editorial changes made by someone at the respective publishers; no way to really know.
103: Periods. In recent years there has been a trend toward omission of periods in abbreviations. This is particularly true of scientific and technical writing, but the practice has been spreading in general writing as well. a) Do not use periods with the following: [Emphasis in original.] ... abbreviations or acronyms consisting exclusively of upper-case letters or ending in an upper-case letter (except those for personal names, legal references and most place names), e.g.: NAFTA, PhD, YWCA, UN, GST, MiG, CTV. (b) Use periods with geographical abbreviations, e.g. B.C., P.E.I., but not for the two-character symbols recommended by Canada Post. This appears to be self-contradictory, since the CP two-letter symbol for British Columbia is in fact BC. This seems to imply using U.K., U.S., etc., but US is used on p. 30, then U.S.A. on p. 55. So, I give up on what they really want. Regardless, it doesn't actually appear to reflect typical, current Canadian style (it is 20 years old); I lived there in 2005–2006, and did not regularly encounter "U.K." and "U.S.A."
Geographical designations: ... 4.19. Abbreviations for names of countries can be used in special circumstances (tables, charts, lists). In text copy, names are usually spelled out.ECE provides no rule against using dots, and illustrates US/U.S. and UK/U.K., even USSR/U.S.S.R.. However, in the preceding sections on acronyms (§4.8) and initialisms (§4.9) it uniformly illustrates all of them without dots, a clear preference. It has no noun/adjective rule.
In abbreviations: ... A period is not used with US Postal Service abbreviates for states .... Current usage is to omit the period in abbreviations of organization names, academic degrees, and designations for eras.So, doesn't state a country rule, but illustrates use of US.
'When not to use a period: ... [D]o not use periods with honorifics (courtesy titles), scientific terms, and abbreviations .... JAMA, NIH ... 14.5: Cities, States, Counties, Territories, Possessions; Provinces; Countries. At first mention the name of a state ... or country should be spelled out when it follows the name of a city. [Elided long note that JAMA doesn't do it with "United States" after US places only because its readership is largely American.] ... Names of cities ... and countries should be spelled out in full when they stand alone. ... Abbreviations such as US and UK may be used as modifiers (ie, only when they directly precede the word they modify) but should be expanded in all other contexts. The authors surveyed representative samples of urban populations in the United States and United Kingdom according to US and UK census data.Uses "US" throughout. [Aside: This passage is, incidentally, proof of use of ie for i.e. in a US style guide; along with frequent use of i.e. in British publications that aren't newspapers, that kills the bogus ENGVAR argument for ie that we were seeing here about a month ago.]
4.4: Use of full stop ... Full stops are omitted in capitalized abbreviations or acronyms for: ... (b) Countries, institutions, societies, and organizations (none of them italicized): UK, USA, BL, BM, UNAM ....[Aside: This publication is proof of use of Oxford spelling ("the Oxfrod -ize") in British publications besides those of Oxford University Press. It also calls for Latinisms to retain dots when abbreviated: i.e., e.g., and so on]
{{
cite book}}
: Explicit use of et al. in: |author2=
(
help), doesn't appear to address the matter, though it seems to give acronyms and initialisms throughout in no-dots, all-caps, no-spaces style.Generally, omit full stops or periods in acronyms unless the result would spell an unrelated word. Most abbreviations of more than two letters do not take periods. But use periods in most two-letter abbreviations: U.S., U.N. (Exceptions include: EU, UK).That's an idiosyncratic house style.
Punctuation of abbreviations and acronyms: The trend now is away from using periods with many abbreviations. In formal writing you can still use periods, with certain exceptions. Do not use periods with: 1. Acronyms and initial-letter abbreviations: AFL-CIO, AMA, HMO, NAFTA, NFL, OPEC. 2. Two-letter mailing abbreviations: AZ (Arizona) .... 3. Compass points: NE (northeast) .... 4.) Technical abbreviations: kph (kilometers per hour), SS (sum of squares), SD (standard deviation).Entire section illustrates all acronyms and initialisms in AIDS, NASA, etc. style (except for assimilated-as-words acronyms like laser, and Latinisms like i.e.). Doesn't make an exception for US, or address it directly.
This is just a start, though it took several hours and I'd rather not do more unless really necessary.
{{cite
and you'll step through the material cite by cite. Almost all of them provide titles and page numbers, which is what you requested below anyway. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
01:11, 9 October 2017 (UTC)"It was my idea" certainly has nothing to do with my reasoning. It's not my idea. It's where the sources and real-world usage are leading us. Please keep in mind that MoS is based almost entirely on CMoS and New Hart's, (plus, for technical material, Scientific Style and Format). Neither CMoS nor NH currently recommend "U.S." Most importantly, the American one, CMoS, hasn't done so for two editions, not since the early 2000s (15th ed.). That by itself is enough to make the change probably, but given backup from MLA Style Manual and [medical] AMA Manual of Style (for academic publishing), MLA Handbook and Penguin Handbook (for university students), The New Century Handbook and (by example, without an explicit rule) The Bedford Handbook (both for general and business writing), etc., we have more than enough. Style guides strongly in favor of "U.S." are almost all legal and journalism (and journalism applies no consistent rule, but just wants to use U.S. sometimes, in conflicting ways. I've also agreed with the idea we can RfC it, nor have I re-reverted anyone. Other editors who agree with the change have reverted attempts to remove it, and I've reworded it to resolve concerns addressed, which seems entirely normal editing to me. This discussion effectively is an RfC, so I don't see the point of opening a new one. We could add an RfC tag and a summary, but so much compromise editing has already happened, I don't really see the point. It would be more practical to post notice of this discussion at Village Pump, and I'll go do that. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 21:49, 8 October 2017 (UTC), updated 08:41, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
The 2003 edition explicitly "bows to tradition", and endorses "U.S." as an exception to its general principle of no points with all-capped abbreviations.
The 2010 edition—that's seven years ago, people—reversed that ruling. I quote using numbering from the 2017 edition, but the text is virtually the same in the 2010 edition (a friend checked it for me):
"10.32: “US” versus “United States”
Note that, as a matter of editorial tradition, this manual has long advised spelling out United States as a noun, reserving US for the adjective form only (where it is preferred) and for tabular matter and the like. In a departure, Chicago now permits the use of US as a noun, subject to editorial discretion and provided the meaning is clear from context. [Examples are provided:] US dollars, US involvement in China, China’s involvement in the United States or China’s involvement in the US."
In both 2010 and 2017, the exception is now the other way around, and even then only partial: "In publications using traditional state abbreviations, use periods to abbreviate United States and its states and territories: U.S., N.Y., Ill. Note, however, that Chicago recommends using the two-letter postal codes (and therefore US) wherever abbreviations are used. [My highlighting]
So their preference is generally for the undotted version. Tony (talk) 08:54, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Does anyone support the idea of requesting temporary protection, to stop people adding cn templates, etc, whilst this discussion is on-going? I am sick of people adding content, removing content, re-adding it, asking for refs ... I do not care which revision stays, so long as one does, with none of this pointless tampering. I have just reverted another editor who placed a cn tag on the MoS, which is wholly inappropriate for this kind of page. Some editors want to have the final say, and will keep changing the wording until this is the case. – Sb2001 talk page 17:14, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
You have been given the information. Make the effort yourself. – Sb2001 talk page 23:59, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
non-US writers don't use it at all, but his general point is correct. Peter coxhead ( talk) 16:20, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
But all of this is beside the point. The actual point is that usage has shifted. There is no claim being made anywhere that no one uses "U.S." any more. The facts are that 1) most of the world does not use "U.S."; 2) North American publications used to be almost entirely consistent on "U.S." but are now frequently using "US"; 3) those that still use "U.S." do not do it consistently from house style to house style; and 4) major US style guides now recommend "US", which was not true from the early 2000s on back. All this focus on "ah ha! I found an isolated exception" is a meaningless distraction. There is no longer a tenable ENGVAR case for "U.S.", but there's an overwhelming COMMONALITY case for "US". — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 20:44, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
SMcCandlish, please say which North American style guides, other than the Chicago Manual of Style, recommend "US". I've looked and can't find any, and I haven't noticed a change. Some 2017 examples of "U.S.": New York University Press: "refugees who moved to the U.S."; Yale University Press: "departed the U.S. mainland"; Harvard University Press: "male bonding in the U.S. novel"; New Yorker: "second U.S. civil war". SarahSV (talk) 22:03, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
"U.S." isn't a "hallmark" of American writing, but a
shibboleth. "Usually not found outside American writing" and "Usually found in American writing to the exclusion of US" are not the same thing, and we already know the latter isn't true, though it was when I was little. ENGVAR only cares about the latter kind of case. E.g., ENGVAR doesn't make it okay to use "gobsmacked" on Wikipedia just because it's almost only found in British and Commonwealth English; exclusivity to a dialect or dialect continuum is insufficient. It is not the almost-exclusive way in British or Commonwealth English to express the concept, just as "U.S." is not the only way to abbreviate "United States" commonly seen in North American writing. By contrast, "neighbour" and "kerb" are essentially unknown in American writing, in which "neighbor" and "curb" are universal, thus are an ENGVAR matter. I don't think this can be explained any more clearly. PS: "UK" is not a hallmark or a shibboleth of British writing, but the norm across all English-language usage, including in the US. Even the declining number of American style guides that prefer "U.S." as a special case say to use UK, USSR, PRC, etc.; the sole exception I could find was The Cooper Hill Stylebook, which would even write "U.N.E.S.C.O."
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
03:50, 11 October 2017 (UTC), revised 04:31, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
do A except ( (do B if X applies and if (Y1 or Y2 applies)) or (do C if Z applies) )
– don't use dots with initialisms, except there's a special rule for abbreviating "United States": use "U.S." in North American English, if the page is already using it, or if you want to and you're making the first major contribution; but use "US" if the article is in British or some other ENGVAR.do A but (permit B if Y1)
– don't use dots with initialisms, except leave "U.S." alone in North American English articles that already have it.do A
(don't use dots in initialisms, at all) would be even better, but the middle-ground approach seemed a good compromise, based on real-world sources not being 100% against "U.S." (yet), and based on the propensity toward drama when MoS aims for commonality that some editors resist out of traditionalism.We know from our quotation marks rules (in favor of accurate and unambiguous quoting, over conflicting North American and other styles), that editors in the aggregate really don't care much, and will generally either learn and follow MoS (if they're that kind of person), or ignore it and write however they are used to but without any resistance to WP:GNOMEs cleaning it up later. It's always just a handful of editors who resist and resist until blue in the face, and it really doesn't seem to matter what particular line-item sets them off. I.e., there's nothing special about this case.
I do think this is a change for the better, albeit very minor. Much simpler, and more consistent. All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough,
23:10, 16 October 2017 (UTC).
I've recently noticed a couple examples of terms which are linked to a corresponding
wikt: page (I'm talking about normal inline links, not using {{
wiktionary}}
). These seem like a bit of a
surprise to me; rather than getting an article about a subject, a user just gets a dictionary definition. But I've been unable to find much information about this situation, so I thought I'd ask here for further pointers/guidance. It seems like a decoration on a link (with a small icon, similar to what I've seen other wikis do when linking back to WP) would at least mitigate the surprise factor, but I don't know how technically feasible that is. Thanks! --
Deacon Vorbis (
talk)
15:05, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Talk:Democratic–Republican Party#Hyphen or Dash?. —
GoldRingChip
13:03, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Is there any specific guideline discouraging the usage of different portraits for the same list entry? I personally believe there should be one, but I was just wondering whether this is merely an unwritten rule. Quite a number of lists I've seen, such as List of Presidents of the United States, List of Prime Ministers of Italy, use the same portrait for list entries that appear more than once (such as Grover Cleveland for the former and Amintore Fanfani for the latter). Conversely there are lists that do use different portraits for repeated list entries, such as Leader of the Labour Party (UK) (which happens to use two different portraits for Harriet Harman, one for her 2010 stint and another for 2015). I myself would support a policy recommending that repeated list entries should use the same portrait.-- Nevé – selbert 20:36, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
The manual of style calls for commas after dates, however, it is being disputed that British format dates does not require said-comma. Does the MOS not apply to DD-MM-YYYY dates and only MM-DD-YYYY ones? livelikemusic talk! 12:52, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
( edit conflict) Thank you, Sb2001. I'll look at that in a moment.
Look, this is getting all confused. It's useless to talk about the following examples –
– because the comma is there for a reason having nothing to do with the date i.e. the same reason there's a comma in this:
Here are examples that matter, in the form MOS calls for:
Any suggestion that the second item should have a comma anywhere in it is nuts. (As someone noted, I personally rebel against the second comma in some constructions similar to the first bullet, but that's my private cross to bear – we're talking here about what MOS calls for. See MOS:DATEFORMAT.) E Eng 20:15, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
.
in numbers. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
07:22, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Extended content
|
---|
Overall, the point that I am making is that time notation is not an issue of news v academic. I mentioned '9.10pm' to 'push your buttons' after you made an unnecessary jibe at the Guardian. It happened to bring the issue back into the spotlight, and highlighted that your reasons for declining the proposal earlier in the year were perhaps misguided. I have given up on the idea of '9.10 pm' being an accepted style on WP ... for now ... I wanted to provide a little more details, though. |
Does the MOS have any recommendation for or against using the {{ clear}} template to prevent images from spilling into subsequent sections? It appears to be the main use of the template, according to its documentation, but I couldn't find any official guideline mention. Obviously, the best course would be not to use too many images, but this is not easy to achieve consistently across all displays. With today's huge display resolutions, an article that follows MOS:LAYIM's benchmark of not spilling over at 1024×768 might still break down on wider screens. -- Paul_012 ( talk) 09:03, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
An image should generally be placed in the most relevant article section; if this is not possible, try not to place an image "too early" i.e. far ahead of the point in the text discussing what the image illustrates, if this could puzzle the reader. Notice that it says an image shouldn't be too "early" – it doesn't talk about being too "late". I worded it that way consciously to avoid making editors feel every image must be neither too early nor too late, and must therefore be " just right" i.e. in the exact section. If an image of John Smith comes a paragraph later than where he's discussed in the text, that's not so bad, because the reader has presumably already read about him; but if the image comes before where he's discussed, then the reader may be puzzled.
There is an RfC in progress at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Linking#RfC_about_linking_in_quotations about MOS:LINKSTYLE & MOS:LWQ. NPalgan2 ( talk) 18:17, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Please see
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Text formatting#Mathematics variables section is wrong and needs updating
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
05:41, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch#Archaic 'st' words – it's more of a MOS:COMMONALITY vs. MOS:ENGVAR matter than a MOS:WTW one. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 10:12, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
{{
anchor}}
). Hopefully that will resolve the issue. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
04:55, 31 October 2017 (UTC)Recently I've run into problems with some editors who insist that the preposition at should not be used with respect to cities, but should always be changed to in, of, from, or some other word. Attempts to point out that at is perfectly appropriate and idiomatic in this context, and also expresses the intended meaning better than the alternatives, usually result in the same changes being made repeatedly. It looks as though a few editors are actively seeking out such phrases and changing them to their preferences, and resisting any attempt to convince them that at a city, town, or other geographical location is perfectly acceptable. I have asked for some authority supporting the claim that this usage is wrong or should be avoided, but haven't been shown any, and haven't found any on my own. Most grammar books and style guides are silent on the issue, or seem to support using at with cities and towns. The Oxford English Dictionary specifically says that this is one of the primary uses of at, and gives examples from the thirteenth century to the present (mostly limited to English cities such as Winchester and London, in my edition).
I'm not sure there's a Wikipedia policy that applies here. Is it simply an English variant? Or just personal preference? That's how I see it when people substitute other prepositions for the intended one. I've written a lot of articles about ancient Romans and Roman families, and over time I've come to prefer the phrase at Rome, because it conveys location without adding unintended or inaccurate meanings. In Rome implies "within the territorial boundaries", which is too specific and not necessarily accurate; of Rome and from Rome imply origin, which is often somewhere other than Rome, or at best uncertain. In any case, if at is perfectly appropriate, and more accurately expresses the intended meaning, is there any policy to point to when reverting changes to other prepositions based on another editor's preferences? Is it relevant if such a change is the only involvement that an editor has with certain articles? It's a little annoying when it appears that editors are simply searching for examples of phrases they dislike, in order to change them to ones they prefer, if they have no other interest in the articles, or understanding of the reason why one choice of words is preferable to another in a given instance. Or is even asking the question displaying "ownership behaviour"? The situation is becoming quite frustrating. P Aculeius ( talk) 03:53, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
"The gens Flavia was a plebeian family at Rome."(wikilinks omitted). This is horribly awkward; in or of would be a lot better here. -- Deacon Vorbis ( talk) 04:17, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Well, I clearly seem to be in the minority among Wikipedians, but at least I've been able to think clearly enough to check some reliable sources, which flatly contradict the argument that this is somehow wrong or archaic. My OED is from the 1970's, so I guess it's not a reliable source for language anymore; Merriam-Webster has for decades defined at first and foremost as "a function word indicating presence in, on, or near", which clearly covers this usage; and with respect to Rome in particular, I think the argument that "sources we'd consider reliably" would seldom or never use at Rome to indicate location, rather than spatial relationship or point of origin is clearly wrong. I found an abundance of what I would like to think everyone would acknowledge as reliable sources, in terms of Roman scholarship, formal English (whether American or British), and in the case of Mary Beard, the vernacular.
The lead should be written in a clear, accessible style with a neutral point of view."Accessible" means easily understood by the average Wikipedia reader. According to Checkingfax, "25% of our readers and editors are between the ages of 10 and 17; 50% between 17 and 35; 25% between 35 and 85." We need to keep our readers in mind as we edit articles. The most easily accessible language would, I think, normally contain the most common usage. So on that point alone, P Aculeius ought to concede. The other point is that, as several editors here have said, the particular usage in the example sentence given,
"The gens Flavia was a plebeian family at Rome.", is even more unusual than the other uses, so unusual, in fact, that several editors have said it is non-colloquial, and that it is simply not used today. I agree. However, I think it would be more colloquial if a verb – probably a past or present participle – were used before the phrase at Rome. I suggested several examples. Another would be "The gens Flavia was a plebeian family residing at Rome." That, I think, would be considered acceptable for those who don't mind "at Rome" instead of "in Rome". P Aculeius, your point that an article should go from general in the lead to more specific in the body of the article does not mean that a sentence should be pared of the words necessary to make it colloquial. So, here are five possible wordings that could be used:
WP:Manual of Style/Captions#Credits has a shortcut WP:CREDITS next to it, but WP:CREDITS goes somewhere else. ☆ Bri ( talk) 18:05, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Have we actually figured out what to do yet about trivial and pointless but controversial changes to wikicode, that don't affect the displayed output? This comes up periodically, but there never seems to be a clear answer other than "take it to ANI if it's disruptive". We've already banned bots from doing it (correction: unless they do it as part of a more substantive edit and the change isn't controversial). The main example that comes to mind is people removing double spaces between sentences; most editors seem to prefer the double spaces (the average well-developed article uses them), removing them impedes wikicode readability, and doing it triggers watchlists for no constructive reason. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 08:26, 4 November 2017 (UTC); corrected: 10:33, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
the average well-developed article uses them" Umm, no. However, this is a great bikeshed issue with the perennial favorite/favourite sentence spacing thrown in. Re pointless changes, yes, that is irritating. What about changing spaces around "==" headers or inserting/deleting a blank line after headers. The latter is the most irritating because it can produce broken diffs. Johnuniq ( talk) 09:27, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Should MoS clarify that capitalized eponyms do not lose their capitalization when used adjectivally? The test case for this is the very long-running dispute about using " Gram stain" but " gram-negative" (i.e. negative in a Gram stain test) when both of these are eponymous (of Hans Christian Gram) and refer to exactly the same dye-staining process in microscopy. (It has nothing to do with the metric unit gram/gramme.) The rationale offered for the inconsistency has been that some medical publishers/organizations (like the US CDC, and some medical dictionaries) like to lower-case eponyms in adjectival usage, a rule that WP's Manual of Style (and most other style guides) do not have. Doing that would require a special exemption to MOS:ARTCON, the overriding consistency guideline of MoS. Use of lower-case "gram-negative" style is not consistent in reliable sources in bacteriology, medicine, histology, microscopy, and related fields. It's purely a house style choice (as our own articles indicate, with sources).
This RfC does not address cases where an eponym's connection to its namesake has been effectively severed and the meaning has shifted (e.g., we would continue to capitalize in constructions like Platonic solid, Platonic love, and the Draconian constitution of Athens, but permit lowercase for figural usage like "His relationship with his roommate was platonic", "She said her parents' rules were draconian", though in encyclopedic writing we'd be better off avoiding such wording). Lower-case is also used in various other cases when virtually all sources agree on lower case ( eustachian tube, caesarian or cesarean section), again due to loss of a clear connection to the namesake in the public mind (contrast degree Celsius and other units, Hodgkin's lymphoma and other diseases, Newtonian mechanics and other scientific principles, etc.)
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 00:12, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Dispute about this, especially "Gram-" vs. "gram-", on Wikipedia dates back to at least 2004 [20], and has never stopped, though with more editors in favor of consistently using "Gram-", and citing Wikipedia rationales for doing so, with a minority of editors insisting on "gram-" for the sole reason that CDC or some other entitity spells it that way. To use the history of Gram-positive bacteria as an example: consistent capitalization efforts for several years [21] [22] [23], followed by a sudden de-capping [24], later reverted [25]; reimposition of lower case [26], then upper [27], lower [28], upper [29], lower [30], upper (among other cleanup) [31], mass-revert back to lower [32]. For the last several years, this mixture of "Gram" and "gram-" has been "enforced" by a single editor, as the later diffs show.
Some time during this "slow editwar", editors began to use the article text itself as a battleground to falsely advance assertions that lowercase "gram-" is a scientific standard (which of course was challenged [33]). There's a similar history at Gram-positive bacteria and various articles on specific bacteria and other bacteriological subjects.
Previous inconclusive discussion has happened at:
The results of these discussions have been:
Despite the
WP:POLICY position being obvious (from
MOS:ARTCON to
WP:CONLEVEL), an RfC seems warranted given the 13 years or so this dispute has been running.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
00:12, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
It seems to be that very common adjectives often take a lower case initial letter. Both abelian and gram fall into this category. Google ngrams suggests that the capital may well triumph for Gram. I'm reluctant to come down on either side of this argument. All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough,
00:12, 7 November 2017 (UTC).
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I've been WP:BOLD and updated that section [1] (earlier draft, [2]) to better reflect actual WP editing practice, and 2017 real-world facts. The short version:
What we're missing is an instruction (not just about "US" in particular) to use the abbreviated form only as an adjective, in a parenthetical, and in tabular data – and generally only after the full name has already been given once (other than an infobox might still use an acronym). This is consistent with what many off-WP style guides advise. Some of this is implicit in
MOS:ABBR rules, but the adjective part is not. This should be added somewhere, and will markedly improve our writing over time. We far too frequently have lead sentences with things like "and is based in the UK" or "was born in the US".
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
21:32, 6 October 2017 (UTC), revised 03:03, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
Done [3]. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 03:03, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
"long-standing"—US and UK style guides insist on the hyphen.
"towards ... towards tolerance of sloppy writing"
"freshman students"—but not female students.
"The same is also true of many U.S. graduate schools."
Third and fourth runs for "towards", and the grammar doesn't work: "It is inappropriate to use Wikipedia as a vehicle towards pushing American English towards ..."—"a vehicle to push" might be OK.
And do you have a copy of Chicago MOS 17th edition yet? At the moment they're doing a deal for hard-copy shipped plus a year's online subscription. Tony (talk) 06:36, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
I'll get this started, using the stack of style guides closest to my desk (leaves out some stuff like Scientific Style and Format):
10.4: Periods with abbreviations. ... Use no periods with abbreviations that appear in full capitals, whether two letters or more, and even if lowercase letters appear within the abbreviation: VP, CEO, MA, MD, PhD, UK, US, NY, IL .... 10.33: "US" versus United States. In running text, spell out United States as a noun; reserve US for the adjective form only (in which position the abbreviation is generally preferred). See also 10.4. US dollars, US involvement in China, but China's involvement in the United States.
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link) It has a side rule to use "U.S." in publications that use "traditional" US state abbreviations like "Ill." and "Calif.", but WP is not one of these, and CMoS recommends against the practice anyway. This edition's material on this is a reversal from the 15th ed. which still favored "U.S." Notably, MoS began when CMoS 15th was current, and has seen extensive revision over time to match the 16th (as it has also been being updated to match post-2010 editions of New Hart's Rules / Oxford Style Manual and Fowler's, etc., as the rest of the world does.10.4: Periods with abbreviations. ... Ues no periods with abbreviations that include two or more capital letters, even if the abbreviation also includes lowercase letters: VP, CEO, MA, MD, PhD, UK, US, NY, IL. [Also has the previous edition's rule to prefer "U.S." with "Ill." abbreviations.] 10.31: Abbreviating country names. Names of countries are usually spelled out in text but may be abbreviated in tabular matter, lists, and the like. [Recommendation to consult dictionaries for abbreviations rather than making up new ones.] ... Certain initialisms, on the other hand, may be appropriate in regular text, especially after the full form has been established .... 10.32: "US" versus "United States." Where necessary, initialisms for country names can be used in running text according to the guidelines set forth [in previous sections about overuse of abbreviations, etc.] Note that, as a matter of editorial tradition, this manual has long advised spelling out United States as a noun, reserving US for the adjective form only (where it is preferred) and for tabular matter and the like. In a departure, Chicago now permits the use of US as a noun, subject to editorial discretion and provided the meaning is clear from context. US dollars, US involvement in China, China's involvement in the United States or China's involvement in the US.
{{
cite book}}
: CS1 maint: extra punctuation (
link) Brand new edition; hasn't had much real-world impact yet. CMoS has clearly softened on its stance about nouns.Use neither periods after letters nor spaces between letters for abbrevaitions made up predominantly of capital letters: BC, DVD, NJ, PhD, US.Has no noun/adjective rules but urges (on the same page cited here) reserving abbreviations for tabular data, citations, and other compressed material.
[S]pell out in the text the names of countries, with a few exceptions (e.g. USSR). In documentation, however, abbreviate the names of states, provinces , countries, and continents. [List of abbreviations begins] ... US, USA: United States, United States of AmericaDoes not include "U.S.", nor a noun/adjective rule.
7.5 Abbreviations that consist of more than one capital letter or of capital letters only are written without full stops: ACT, RSPCA, PhD, GPO, IBRD, USA. ... 7.7: Acronyms ... Acronyms are written without full stops. 7.67: The names of countries, except for the former Soviet Union, which is usually designated USSR, should be spelt out in general text. For example: The United Kingdom, the United States, Australia, New Zealand and Japan have agreed ... not The UK, the USA, Australia, NZ and Japan have agreed .... For text, this rule should be waived only in heavily statistical or greatly condensed scientific work. 7.68: In text that uses many shortened forms, the standard abbreviations for name of countries may be used adjectivally: UK tariffs have ...; In her study of NZ foreign policy ..... 7.69: Standard abbreviations for names of countries are used in tables, figures, notes, references and bibliographies, where space considerations are important: UK, USA, Statistics Act 1975 (NZ), s 37.There may be a newer edition out now; last time I looked it was still in production, but that was a few years ago.
48d: Avoid common misuses of periods. ... Do not use periods with acronyms and other all uppercase abbreviations. [Emphasis in original.] The recent trend is not to use periods with common abbreviations for states, countries, organizations, computer programs, famous eople, and other entities: CA, NOW, MIT ... USA, MS-DOS, JFK ... HTML, AAA .... 56e: Avoid most other abbreviations in formal writing. Place names, including the names of states, countries, provinces, continents, and other locations, should not be abbreviated except in addresses and occasionally when usd as adjectives (for example, in US government).Uses dot-free acronyms throughout, except for latinisms (e.g., p.m., i.e.). Specifically illustrates
Acronyms and initialisms of more than one capital letter take no full points in British and technical usage and are closed up: TUC, MA, EU .... In some US styles certain initialisms may have full points (US/U.S.).There isn't an adjective/noun usage distinction maintained in New Hart's.
Acronyms and initialisms of more than one capital letter take no full points in British and technical usage and are closed up: TUC, MA, EU .... US English uses points in such contexts: U.S., L.A.P.D., R.E.M.This was wrong even when it was published; the two leading US style guides (CMoS for academic writing, and Associated Press Stylebook for journalism) were already condemning this, and dominant usage of "LAPD" is provable in seconds [5] by an N-gram constrained to US English and the decade leading up to publication of Ritter's book. Ritter's comment appears to be material left over from the 1980s Hart's Rules, when it might have been closer to accurate. "REM" in the sleep sense has been absolutely dominant without periods for decades [6], and in the case of the band name, it's a proper name (also from the '80s) styled however the band likes (the band consistently used the dots, but the press did not [7]).
As shortened forms for United States, these terms retain their periods, despite the modern trend to drop the periods in most initialisms. ... U.S. is best reserved for use as an adjective <U.S. foreign policy> although its use as a noun in headlines is common. In abbreviations incorporating U.S., the periods are typically dropped <USPS>, <USAF>, <USNA>.Garner seems (at first; see next entry) the primary hold-out in the style-guide world for "U.S.", and does not even acknowledge the usage shift, or that non-US usage might differ. This is weird because the current edition is taking pains to be more descriptive (even extensively using N-gram data) with hundreds of entries updated with usage-shift info; this entry was not updated. Whether this represents Garner not getting around to it or studiously avoiding it is anyone's guess. Despite being published by Oxford, this is a thoroughly American work, and Garner is not a linguist but a lawyer, steeped in legal writing (he's the editor or author of various works on legal writing); it's a register that in the US always uses U.S. except in longer acronyms like USAF. See next entry, however.
537. Use a period to indicate an abbreviated name or title. (The salutary trend, though, is to omit periods with acronyms and initialisms—hence BBC ...)I looked at every page the index said had anything to do with abbreviations, acronyms, initialisms, the period, proper names, and proper nouns. There's nothing about "U.S.", nor did I see it used in the prose while skimming, and he uses "UNESCO"-style throughout. This may be evidence that the entry in GMEU, above, simply didn't get updated since the last edition, or it may reflect editorial changes made by someone at the respective publishers; no way to really know.
103: Periods. In recent years there has been a trend toward omission of periods in abbreviations. This is particularly true of scientific and technical writing, but the practice has been spreading in general writing as well. a) Do not use periods with the following: [Emphasis in original.] ... abbreviations or acronyms consisting exclusively of upper-case letters or ending in an upper-case letter (except those for personal names, legal references and most place names), e.g.: NAFTA, PhD, YWCA, UN, GST, MiG, CTV. (b) Use periods with geographical abbreviations, e.g. B.C., P.E.I., but not for the two-character symbols recommended by Canada Post. This appears to be self-contradictory, since the CP two-letter symbol for British Columbia is in fact BC. This seems to imply using U.K., U.S., etc., but US is used on p. 30, then U.S.A. on p. 55. So, I give up on what they really want. Regardless, it doesn't actually appear to reflect typical, current Canadian style (it is 20 years old); I lived there in 2005–2006, and did not regularly encounter "U.K." and "U.S.A."
Geographical designations: ... 4.19. Abbreviations for names of countries can be used in special circumstances (tables, charts, lists). In text copy, names are usually spelled out.ECE provides no rule against using dots, and illustrates US/U.S. and UK/U.K., even USSR/U.S.S.R.. However, in the preceding sections on acronyms (§4.8) and initialisms (§4.9) it uniformly illustrates all of them without dots, a clear preference. It has no noun/adjective rule.
In abbreviations: ... A period is not used with US Postal Service abbreviates for states .... Current usage is to omit the period in abbreviations of organization names, academic degrees, and designations for eras.So, doesn't state a country rule, but illustrates use of US.
'When not to use a period: ... [D]o not use periods with honorifics (courtesy titles), scientific terms, and abbreviations .... JAMA, NIH ... 14.5: Cities, States, Counties, Territories, Possessions; Provinces; Countries. At first mention the name of a state ... or country should be spelled out when it follows the name of a city. [Elided long note that JAMA doesn't do it with "United States" after US places only because its readership is largely American.] ... Names of cities ... and countries should be spelled out in full when they stand alone. ... Abbreviations such as US and UK may be used as modifiers (ie, only when they directly precede the word they modify) but should be expanded in all other contexts. The authors surveyed representative samples of urban populations in the United States and United Kingdom according to US and UK census data.Uses "US" throughout. [Aside: This passage is, incidentally, proof of use of ie for i.e. in a US style guide; along with frequent use of i.e. in British publications that aren't newspapers, that kills the bogus ENGVAR argument for ie that we were seeing here about a month ago.]
4.4: Use of full stop ... Full stops are omitted in capitalized abbreviations or acronyms for: ... (b) Countries, institutions, societies, and organizations (none of them italicized): UK, USA, BL, BM, UNAM ....[Aside: This publication is proof of use of Oxford spelling ("the Oxfrod -ize") in British publications besides those of Oxford University Press. It also calls for Latinisms to retain dots when abbreviated: i.e., e.g., and so on]
{{
cite book}}
: Explicit use of et al. in: |author2=
(
help), doesn't appear to address the matter, though it seems to give acronyms and initialisms throughout in no-dots, all-caps, no-spaces style.Generally, omit full stops or periods in acronyms unless the result would spell an unrelated word. Most abbreviations of more than two letters do not take periods. But use periods in most two-letter abbreviations: U.S., U.N. (Exceptions include: EU, UK).That's an idiosyncratic house style.
Punctuation of abbreviations and acronyms: The trend now is away from using periods with many abbreviations. In formal writing you can still use periods, with certain exceptions. Do not use periods with: 1. Acronyms and initial-letter abbreviations: AFL-CIO, AMA, HMO, NAFTA, NFL, OPEC. 2. Two-letter mailing abbreviations: AZ (Arizona) .... 3. Compass points: NE (northeast) .... 4.) Technical abbreviations: kph (kilometers per hour), SS (sum of squares), SD (standard deviation).Entire section illustrates all acronyms and initialisms in AIDS, NASA, etc. style (except for assimilated-as-words acronyms like laser, and Latinisms like i.e.). Doesn't make an exception for US, or address it directly.
This is just a start, though it took several hours and I'd rather not do more unless really necessary.
{{cite
and you'll step through the material cite by cite. Almost all of them provide titles and page numbers, which is what you requested below anyway. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
01:11, 9 October 2017 (UTC)"It was my idea" certainly has nothing to do with my reasoning. It's not my idea. It's where the sources and real-world usage are leading us. Please keep in mind that MoS is based almost entirely on CMoS and New Hart's, (plus, for technical material, Scientific Style and Format). Neither CMoS nor NH currently recommend "U.S." Most importantly, the American one, CMoS, hasn't done so for two editions, not since the early 2000s (15th ed.). That by itself is enough to make the change probably, but given backup from MLA Style Manual and [medical] AMA Manual of Style (for academic publishing), MLA Handbook and Penguin Handbook (for university students), The New Century Handbook and (by example, without an explicit rule) The Bedford Handbook (both for general and business writing), etc., we have more than enough. Style guides strongly in favor of "U.S." are almost all legal and journalism (and journalism applies no consistent rule, but just wants to use U.S. sometimes, in conflicting ways. I've also agreed with the idea we can RfC it, nor have I re-reverted anyone. Other editors who agree with the change have reverted attempts to remove it, and I've reworded it to resolve concerns addressed, which seems entirely normal editing to me. This discussion effectively is an RfC, so I don't see the point of opening a new one. We could add an RfC tag and a summary, but so much compromise editing has already happened, I don't really see the point. It would be more practical to post notice of this discussion at Village Pump, and I'll go do that. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 21:49, 8 October 2017 (UTC), updated 08:41, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
The 2003 edition explicitly "bows to tradition", and endorses "U.S." as an exception to its general principle of no points with all-capped abbreviations.
The 2010 edition—that's seven years ago, people—reversed that ruling. I quote using numbering from the 2017 edition, but the text is virtually the same in the 2010 edition (a friend checked it for me):
"10.32: “US” versus “United States”
Note that, as a matter of editorial tradition, this manual has long advised spelling out United States as a noun, reserving US for the adjective form only (where it is preferred) and for tabular matter and the like. In a departure, Chicago now permits the use of US as a noun, subject to editorial discretion and provided the meaning is clear from context. [Examples are provided:] US dollars, US involvement in China, China’s involvement in the United States or China’s involvement in the US."
In both 2010 and 2017, the exception is now the other way around, and even then only partial: "In publications using traditional state abbreviations, use periods to abbreviate United States and its states and territories: U.S., N.Y., Ill. Note, however, that Chicago recommends using the two-letter postal codes (and therefore US) wherever abbreviations are used. [My highlighting]
So their preference is generally for the undotted version. Tony (talk) 08:54, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Does anyone support the idea of requesting temporary protection, to stop people adding cn templates, etc, whilst this discussion is on-going? I am sick of people adding content, removing content, re-adding it, asking for refs ... I do not care which revision stays, so long as one does, with none of this pointless tampering. I have just reverted another editor who placed a cn tag on the MoS, which is wholly inappropriate for this kind of page. Some editors want to have the final say, and will keep changing the wording until this is the case. – Sb2001 talk page 17:14, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
You have been given the information. Make the effort yourself. – Sb2001 talk page 23:59, 8 October 2017 (UTC)
non-US writers don't use it at all, but his general point is correct. Peter coxhead ( talk) 16:20, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
But all of this is beside the point. The actual point is that usage has shifted. There is no claim being made anywhere that no one uses "U.S." any more. The facts are that 1) most of the world does not use "U.S."; 2) North American publications used to be almost entirely consistent on "U.S." but are now frequently using "US"; 3) those that still use "U.S." do not do it consistently from house style to house style; and 4) major US style guides now recommend "US", which was not true from the early 2000s on back. All this focus on "ah ha! I found an isolated exception" is a meaningless distraction. There is no longer a tenable ENGVAR case for "U.S.", but there's an overwhelming COMMONALITY case for "US". — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 20:44, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
SMcCandlish, please say which North American style guides, other than the Chicago Manual of Style, recommend "US". I've looked and can't find any, and I haven't noticed a change. Some 2017 examples of "U.S.": New York University Press: "refugees who moved to the U.S."; Yale University Press: "departed the U.S. mainland"; Harvard University Press: "male bonding in the U.S. novel"; New Yorker: "second U.S. civil war". SarahSV (talk) 22:03, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
"U.S." isn't a "hallmark" of American writing, but a
shibboleth. "Usually not found outside American writing" and "Usually found in American writing to the exclusion of US" are not the same thing, and we already know the latter isn't true, though it was when I was little. ENGVAR only cares about the latter kind of case. E.g., ENGVAR doesn't make it okay to use "gobsmacked" on Wikipedia just because it's almost only found in British and Commonwealth English; exclusivity to a dialect or dialect continuum is insufficient. It is not the almost-exclusive way in British or Commonwealth English to express the concept, just as "U.S." is not the only way to abbreviate "United States" commonly seen in North American writing. By contrast, "neighbour" and "kerb" are essentially unknown in American writing, in which "neighbor" and "curb" are universal, thus are an ENGVAR matter. I don't think this can be explained any more clearly. PS: "UK" is not a hallmark or a shibboleth of British writing, but the norm across all English-language usage, including in the US. Even the declining number of American style guides that prefer "U.S." as a special case say to use UK, USSR, PRC, etc.; the sole exception I could find was The Cooper Hill Stylebook, which would even write "U.N.E.S.C.O."
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
03:50, 11 October 2017 (UTC), revised 04:31, 11 October 2017 (UTC)
do A except ( (do B if X applies and if (Y1 or Y2 applies)) or (do C if Z applies) )
– don't use dots with initialisms, except there's a special rule for abbreviating "United States": use "U.S." in North American English, if the page is already using it, or if you want to and you're making the first major contribution; but use "US" if the article is in British or some other ENGVAR.do A but (permit B if Y1)
– don't use dots with initialisms, except leave "U.S." alone in North American English articles that already have it.do A
(don't use dots in initialisms, at all) would be even better, but the middle-ground approach seemed a good compromise, based on real-world sources not being 100% against "U.S." (yet), and based on the propensity toward drama when MoS aims for commonality that some editors resist out of traditionalism.We know from our quotation marks rules (in favor of accurate and unambiguous quoting, over conflicting North American and other styles), that editors in the aggregate really don't care much, and will generally either learn and follow MoS (if they're that kind of person), or ignore it and write however they are used to but without any resistance to WP:GNOMEs cleaning it up later. It's always just a handful of editors who resist and resist until blue in the face, and it really doesn't seem to matter what particular line-item sets them off. I.e., there's nothing special about this case.
I do think this is a change for the better, albeit very minor. Much simpler, and more consistent. All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough,
23:10, 16 October 2017 (UTC).
I've recently noticed a couple examples of terms which are linked to a corresponding
wikt: page (I'm talking about normal inline links, not using {{
wiktionary}}
). These seem like a bit of a
surprise to me; rather than getting an article about a subject, a user just gets a dictionary definition. But I've been unable to find much information about this situation, so I thought I'd ask here for further pointers/guidance. It seems like a decoration on a link (with a small icon, similar to what I've seen other wikis do when linking back to WP) would at least mitigate the surprise factor, but I don't know how technically feasible that is. Thanks! --
Deacon Vorbis (
talk)
15:05, 12 October 2017 (UTC)
You are invited to join the discussion at
Talk:Democratic–Republican Party#Hyphen or Dash?. —
GoldRingChip
13:03, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
Is there any specific guideline discouraging the usage of different portraits for the same list entry? I personally believe there should be one, but I was just wondering whether this is merely an unwritten rule. Quite a number of lists I've seen, such as List of Presidents of the United States, List of Prime Ministers of Italy, use the same portrait for list entries that appear more than once (such as Grover Cleveland for the former and Amintore Fanfani for the latter). Conversely there are lists that do use different portraits for repeated list entries, such as Leader of the Labour Party (UK) (which happens to use two different portraits for Harriet Harman, one for her 2010 stint and another for 2015). I myself would support a policy recommending that repeated list entries should use the same portrait.-- Nevé – selbert 20:36, 18 October 2017 (UTC)
The manual of style calls for commas after dates, however, it is being disputed that British format dates does not require said-comma. Does the MOS not apply to DD-MM-YYYY dates and only MM-DD-YYYY ones? livelikemusic talk! 12:52, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
( edit conflict) Thank you, Sb2001. I'll look at that in a moment.
Look, this is getting all confused. It's useless to talk about the following examples –
– because the comma is there for a reason having nothing to do with the date i.e. the same reason there's a comma in this:
Here are examples that matter, in the form MOS calls for:
Any suggestion that the second item should have a comma anywhere in it is nuts. (As someone noted, I personally rebel against the second comma in some constructions similar to the first bullet, but that's my private cross to bear – we're talking here about what MOS calls for. See MOS:DATEFORMAT.) E Eng 20:15, 20 October 2017 (UTC)
.
in numbers. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
07:22, 23 October 2017 (UTC)
Extended content
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Overall, the point that I am making is that time notation is not an issue of news v academic. I mentioned '9.10pm' to 'push your buttons' after you made an unnecessary jibe at the Guardian. It happened to bring the issue back into the spotlight, and highlighted that your reasons for declining the proposal earlier in the year were perhaps misguided. I have given up on the idea of '9.10 pm' being an accepted style on WP ... for now ... I wanted to provide a little more details, though. |
Does the MOS have any recommendation for or against using the {{ clear}} template to prevent images from spilling into subsequent sections? It appears to be the main use of the template, according to its documentation, but I couldn't find any official guideline mention. Obviously, the best course would be not to use too many images, but this is not easy to achieve consistently across all displays. With today's huge display resolutions, an article that follows MOS:LAYIM's benchmark of not spilling over at 1024×768 might still break down on wider screens. -- Paul_012 ( talk) 09:03, 24 October 2017 (UTC)
An image should generally be placed in the most relevant article section; if this is not possible, try not to place an image "too early" i.e. far ahead of the point in the text discussing what the image illustrates, if this could puzzle the reader. Notice that it says an image shouldn't be too "early" – it doesn't talk about being too "late". I worded it that way consciously to avoid making editors feel every image must be neither too early nor too late, and must therefore be " just right" i.e. in the exact section. If an image of John Smith comes a paragraph later than where he's discussed in the text, that's not so bad, because the reader has presumably already read about him; but if the image comes before where he's discussed, then the reader may be puzzled.
There is an RfC in progress at Wikipedia_talk:Manual_of_Style/Linking#RfC_about_linking_in_quotations about MOS:LINKSTYLE & MOS:LWQ. NPalgan2 ( talk) 18:17, 26 October 2017 (UTC)
Please see
Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Text formatting#Mathematics variables section is wrong and needs updating
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
05:41, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Please see Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Words to watch#Archaic 'st' words – it's more of a MOS:COMMONALITY vs. MOS:ENGVAR matter than a MOS:WTW one. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 10:12, 25 October 2017 (UTC)
{{
anchor}}
). Hopefully that will resolve the issue. —
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
04:55, 31 October 2017 (UTC)Recently I've run into problems with some editors who insist that the preposition at should not be used with respect to cities, but should always be changed to in, of, from, or some other word. Attempts to point out that at is perfectly appropriate and idiomatic in this context, and also expresses the intended meaning better than the alternatives, usually result in the same changes being made repeatedly. It looks as though a few editors are actively seeking out such phrases and changing them to their preferences, and resisting any attempt to convince them that at a city, town, or other geographical location is perfectly acceptable. I have asked for some authority supporting the claim that this usage is wrong or should be avoided, but haven't been shown any, and haven't found any on my own. Most grammar books and style guides are silent on the issue, or seem to support using at with cities and towns. The Oxford English Dictionary specifically says that this is one of the primary uses of at, and gives examples from the thirteenth century to the present (mostly limited to English cities such as Winchester and London, in my edition).
I'm not sure there's a Wikipedia policy that applies here. Is it simply an English variant? Or just personal preference? That's how I see it when people substitute other prepositions for the intended one. I've written a lot of articles about ancient Romans and Roman families, and over time I've come to prefer the phrase at Rome, because it conveys location without adding unintended or inaccurate meanings. In Rome implies "within the territorial boundaries", which is too specific and not necessarily accurate; of Rome and from Rome imply origin, which is often somewhere other than Rome, or at best uncertain. In any case, if at is perfectly appropriate, and more accurately expresses the intended meaning, is there any policy to point to when reverting changes to other prepositions based on another editor's preferences? Is it relevant if such a change is the only involvement that an editor has with certain articles? It's a little annoying when it appears that editors are simply searching for examples of phrases they dislike, in order to change them to ones they prefer, if they have no other interest in the articles, or understanding of the reason why one choice of words is preferable to another in a given instance. Or is even asking the question displaying "ownership behaviour"? The situation is becoming quite frustrating. P Aculeius ( talk) 03:53, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
"The gens Flavia was a plebeian family at Rome."(wikilinks omitted). This is horribly awkward; in or of would be a lot better here. -- Deacon Vorbis ( talk) 04:17, 30 October 2017 (UTC)
Well, I clearly seem to be in the minority among Wikipedians, but at least I've been able to think clearly enough to check some reliable sources, which flatly contradict the argument that this is somehow wrong or archaic. My OED is from the 1970's, so I guess it's not a reliable source for language anymore; Merriam-Webster has for decades defined at first and foremost as "a function word indicating presence in, on, or near", which clearly covers this usage; and with respect to Rome in particular, I think the argument that "sources we'd consider reliably" would seldom or never use at Rome to indicate location, rather than spatial relationship or point of origin is clearly wrong. I found an abundance of what I would like to think everyone would acknowledge as reliable sources, in terms of Roman scholarship, formal English (whether American or British), and in the case of Mary Beard, the vernacular.
The lead should be written in a clear, accessible style with a neutral point of view."Accessible" means easily understood by the average Wikipedia reader. According to Checkingfax, "25% of our readers and editors are between the ages of 10 and 17; 50% between 17 and 35; 25% between 35 and 85." We need to keep our readers in mind as we edit articles. The most easily accessible language would, I think, normally contain the most common usage. So on that point alone, P Aculeius ought to concede. The other point is that, as several editors here have said, the particular usage in the example sentence given,
"The gens Flavia was a plebeian family at Rome.", is even more unusual than the other uses, so unusual, in fact, that several editors have said it is non-colloquial, and that it is simply not used today. I agree. However, I think it would be more colloquial if a verb – probably a past or present participle – were used before the phrase at Rome. I suggested several examples. Another would be "The gens Flavia was a plebeian family residing at Rome." That, I think, would be considered acceptable for those who don't mind "at Rome" instead of "in Rome". P Aculeius, your point that an article should go from general in the lead to more specific in the body of the article does not mean that a sentence should be pared of the words necessary to make it colloquial. So, here are five possible wordings that could be used:
WP:Manual of Style/Captions#Credits has a shortcut WP:CREDITS next to it, but WP:CREDITS goes somewhere else. ☆ Bri ( talk) 18:05, 2 November 2017 (UTC)
Have we actually figured out what to do yet about trivial and pointless but controversial changes to wikicode, that don't affect the displayed output? This comes up periodically, but there never seems to be a clear answer other than "take it to ANI if it's disruptive". We've already banned bots from doing it (correction: unless they do it as part of a more substantive edit and the change isn't controversial). The main example that comes to mind is people removing double spaces between sentences; most editors seem to prefer the double spaces (the average well-developed article uses them), removing them impedes wikicode readability, and doing it triggers watchlists for no constructive reason. — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 08:26, 4 November 2017 (UTC); corrected: 10:33, 5 November 2017 (UTC)
the average well-developed article uses them" Umm, no. However, this is a great bikeshed issue with the perennial favorite/favourite sentence spacing thrown in. Re pointless changes, yes, that is irritating. What about changing spaces around "==" headers or inserting/deleting a blank line after headers. The latter is the most irritating because it can produce broken diffs. Johnuniq ( talk) 09:27, 4 November 2017 (UTC)
Should MoS clarify that capitalized eponyms do not lose their capitalization when used adjectivally? The test case for this is the very long-running dispute about using " Gram stain" but " gram-negative" (i.e. negative in a Gram stain test) when both of these are eponymous (of Hans Christian Gram) and refer to exactly the same dye-staining process in microscopy. (It has nothing to do with the metric unit gram/gramme.) The rationale offered for the inconsistency has been that some medical publishers/organizations (like the US CDC, and some medical dictionaries) like to lower-case eponyms in adjectival usage, a rule that WP's Manual of Style (and most other style guides) do not have. Doing that would require a special exemption to MOS:ARTCON, the overriding consistency guideline of MoS. Use of lower-case "gram-negative" style is not consistent in reliable sources in bacteriology, medicine, histology, microscopy, and related fields. It's purely a house style choice (as our own articles indicate, with sources).
This RfC does not address cases where an eponym's connection to its namesake has been effectively severed and the meaning has shifted (e.g., we would continue to capitalize in constructions like Platonic solid, Platonic love, and the Draconian constitution of Athens, but permit lowercase for figural usage like "His relationship with his roommate was platonic", "She said her parents' rules were draconian", though in encyclopedic writing we'd be better off avoiding such wording). Lower-case is also used in various other cases when virtually all sources agree on lower case ( eustachian tube, caesarian or cesarean section), again due to loss of a clear connection to the namesake in the public mind (contrast degree Celsius and other units, Hodgkin's lymphoma and other diseases, Newtonian mechanics and other scientific principles, etc.)
— SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ< 00:12, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
Dispute about this, especially "Gram-" vs. "gram-", on Wikipedia dates back to at least 2004 [20], and has never stopped, though with more editors in favor of consistently using "Gram-", and citing Wikipedia rationales for doing so, with a minority of editors insisting on "gram-" for the sole reason that CDC or some other entitity spells it that way. To use the history of Gram-positive bacteria as an example: consistent capitalization efforts for several years [21] [22] [23], followed by a sudden de-capping [24], later reverted [25]; reimposition of lower case [26], then upper [27], lower [28], upper [29], lower [30], upper (among other cleanup) [31], mass-revert back to lower [32]. For the last several years, this mixture of "Gram" and "gram-" has been "enforced" by a single editor, as the later diffs show.
Some time during this "slow editwar", editors began to use the article text itself as a battleground to falsely advance assertions that lowercase "gram-" is a scientific standard (which of course was challenged [33]). There's a similar history at Gram-positive bacteria and various articles on specific bacteria and other bacteriological subjects.
Previous inconclusive discussion has happened at:
The results of these discussions have been:
Despite the
WP:POLICY position being obvious (from
MOS:ARTCON to
WP:CONLEVEL), an RfC seems warranted given the 13 years or so this dispute has been running.
—
SMcCandlish
☏
¢ >ʌⱷ҅ᴥⱷʌ<
00:12, 21 October 2017 (UTC)
It seems to be that very common adjectives often take a lower case initial letter. Both abelian and gram fall into this category. Google ngrams suggests that the capital may well triumph for Gram. I'm reluctant to come down on either side of this argument. All the best:
Rich
Farmbrough,
00:12, 7 November 2017 (UTC).