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Does anyone object to an addition along the following lines (and can anyone suggest better wording?):
I don't understand. What's the systemic bias you are trying to combat? As far as the particular British English style, I've looked for an example of what people may use - but have failed. I think it's more a case of there not really being a need for constructions of "Place, Country" other than at the end of a clause. All the best, jguk 08:10, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In general, I believe that place names should be given without any country/state information in article titles. However, when a number of places have the same name, it is usual to disambiguate by giving the location after a comma. Particularly in the United States, rapid settlement patterns led to numerous places sharing the same name, and the disambiguating style has become the norm even for unambiguous place names. This does not mean that this style is only used in the US: Newport, Gwent, is an obvious British version of this style (there are other Newports in Britain); Boston, Lincolnshire, is an international disambiguation that doesn't sound at all round. Local style and good English usage should work together to determine which system is more appropriate. Technically, when a comma is used in this way, it is a bracketing comma rather than a listing comma. Therefore, in text another comma is required after Miami, Florida, for the flow of the sentence not be interrupted. I think this style is better than parentheses in titles when it is called for. -- Gareth Hughes 19:47, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it is being used less frequently, but that doesn't necessarily make it right. There is some misconception that the comma is part of the name, and thus exists for itself. A comma always has to have a role in the syntax of a sentence. I think the misconception is that it is a listing comma. When I write my address, I sometimes use listing commas to separate each element (when I can write it on different lines, I don't need them: they've gone out of fashion!). These place names look a little like addresses, and so the comma may feel like a listing comma. However, the comma is bracketing off additional information: the where and which of places with the same name. As a bracketing comma, unless the phrase appears in isolation, or immediately before another punctuation mark, it should take a closing bracketing comma. This is as important, albeit not as glaring, as opening parentheses and not closing them. -- Gareth Hughes 13:32, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to have to agree with Garzo there. If it's being used less frequently, that's only out of sheer laziness. When attention is paid to the proper placement of commas, even if it may not be entirely possible to regulate such a thing, it greatly increases Wikipedia's credibility. Improper punctuation smacks of poor workmanship. Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 02:08, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
I've been trying to find a proper manual or recommendation for how to cite my sources in wikipedia. Should I just adopt MLA, Chicago, APA, etc, etc? I assume I ought to use foot/end-notes, is this correct? Have I just missed the page entirely in my searches? If it does exist, I believe it at least ought be linked to the manual of style. Jxn 07:18, 2005 Apr 14 (UTC)
Does there exist an example page (ie: a dummy sample) that possesses most/all of the aspects from the Manual of Stlye that I can refer to? I think it would be easier to use than trawling the Manual of Style. -- Commander Keane 12:14, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The first words of the article Internationalization and localization were recently changed from "Internationalization and localization" to "Internationalization (or internationalisation) and localization (or localisation)". Given that no human being could possibly understand one of these spellings and fail to understand the other, this seems just plain silly to me. As I understand our section on National varieties of English, it is also against policy. Could someone who has not got a personal stake in that article (which I do) please comment here and maybe revert? Thanks. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:03, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
Proper names begin with a capital letter. Thus "There is no god but God, and God is the god both of Christianity and Islam, and his name is God.".
I have often erroneously used philosopher quotes instead of italics when using words as names for themselves. Maybe there should be a mention in "quote usage" referring back to "words as words".
Pmurray bigpond.com 00:09, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've had a couple of discussions in different contexts about this, but it probably needs a bit of "democratic centralism". Where a particular church is being referred to, should it be referred to as "the Church", on the grounds of an abbreviated reference to a full title containing the capitalised word "Church" (Catholic Church, United Methodist Church, etc), or should it be referred to as "the church", on the basis of referring to it as a descriptive, non-proper noun, and avoiding any possible implication of uniqueness, definitiveness, etc? (I think there are at least two NPOV issues: bodies which are incontestably churches, and which make contested claims to be "The Church" in some sense; and bodies which are contested even to the churches, but which indubitably have the word "Church" in their titles.) Alai 05:32, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
-- Gareth Hughes 11:30, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not capitalize Reality or Life or Church otherwise. -- Wetman 15:33, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
For example.
The trick is simple. When one reads back the sentence, can the name of a clear specific organisation be fitted in to the text before the word 'church', with 'church' simply a shortened version of the full name. If it can, it is capitalised. If it can't, it isn't. FearÉIREANN 23:17, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm aware of this usage, but it's not at all clear to me that it rises to the level of a "standard rule". Do you have a reference? (Ideally a publisher's or newspapers style guide or something at such a level.) Alai 02:18, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is elementary English taught in schools - sometimes called Implicit Proper Nouns (IPNs) and Explicit Proper Nouns (EPNs). If a word though appearing not be a proper noun is in reality a shortened version of a proper noun then it is treated as a proper noun for capitalisation purposes. It is a way to avoid clumsy repetition of long proper nouns that make text complicated to read.
Two examples Number 1
Rather than writing The Roman Catholic Church's decision to elect as Roman Catholic Church's head one of the Roman Catholic Church's most outspoken conservatives has shocked many members of the Roman Catholic Church (which is a tangled mouthful) one can write The Roman Catholic Church's decision to elect as the Church's head one of its most outspoken conservatives shocked many members of the Church. The capitalisation tells the reader that the word church is not generalised but is specific: the same church named in full at the start of the sentence. Technically if you lowercase the last church it could be misinterpreted as meaning the church is in broadest sense, ie, not specifically Roman Catholic but the broad Christian Church.
Number 2
Both sentences look the same but mean something different. In Example 1 the capitalised Church shows it is an Implicit Proper Noun, linking it to the proper noun in the sentence, Roman Catholic Church. So the Church leaders are Roman Catholic Church leaders: cardinals, bishops, etc. Example 2, by lowercasing church shows that it is not an IPN. So the church is generic, not specific. So church does not mean Roman Catholic Church but any church. So it refers to non-RC figures like the Anglican Church's Archbishop of Canterbury, the head of the Lutheran Church in Rome, etc etc.
It is something English teachers recommend strongly to ensure that the reader knows unambigiously what church is meant in the sentence. Copywriters do it all the time in academic texts and encyclopaedias. It is more used in British English than in American English but my American publishers are sticklers for it; they say they prefer Irish and British authors to American ones because there is less work involved in copyediting, as the meaning of sentences are clearer on account proper use of IPNs.
Newspapers (and so their style guides) used it less often for technical reasons.
But what is written here is appearing in an encyclopaedia, not a newspaper, so it has a far longer shelf-life. Many articles deal with far more complicated subjects, at far longer length, than a 300 word piece in a newspaper. And we are using modern technology. So there is no justification in using a standard that loses the benefits of capitalisation, when the whole point of upper casing is to add clarity to sentences and minimise misunderstanding. Wikipedia is already poorly regarded academically, not because of the standard of its contents (some of which is first class, some not so) but because of its notoriously illiteracy and poor use of grammar. (I have already heard one academic roar with laughter because some idiots kept lowercasing an article's use of capitals that were there to specify that the article was about a formal legal term. What the lowercasers didn't realise was that when lowercased the term meant something totally different, and the article went from being a first class piece to a semi-literate piece of junk.
From marking academic papers and theses, I know that failure to use IPNs in many universities will result in an automatic docking of 8%. Overall failure to capitalise correctly will see 18-25% docked automatically. If wikipedia wants to be taken seriously it needs to follow high standards in a number of areas, and one key one is to know how and when to capitalise. And that flows from knowing why somethings are capitalised and some things aren't. That key to that is knowing whether some words though at first glance look as though they should be lowercased are actually implicit proper nouns that as a result should be treated as a normal proper noun. FearÉIREANN 02:34, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here's an example, from the Concise Columbia Encyclopedia, third edition: "Roman Catholic Church, Christian church headed by the pope, the bishop of Rome. ..." Maurreen 05:28, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think the usage of "the church" is more NPOV and should be the established standard regardless of usage in other areas, including for uses of the body of Christ since using "the Church" pushes a specific theological concept that is not accepted by all Christians. I can see some logic in using "Church" for an IPN but only if such a style is standardized in the US and UK. Trödel| talk 16:36, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
A month on: has anyone found a pronouncement in an authoritative style guide (or anything even vaguely resembling such) to justify either position? Either particularised to churches (as per the buildings vs. denominations argument/suggested usage), or as regards references vs. abbreviated proper nouns in general? I've drawn something of a blank on this in the Oxford Guide to Style (though I'm still pretty sure what the Guardian'd say). Alai 22:01, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
I did not find any rules on where to put punctuation, when brackets are used. Should it appear inside the brackets (like this,) or outside (like this), or should there be any different rules for commas, full stops and question marks (like this)? − Woodstone 20:30, 2005 Apr 23 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable. I just wondered, because I saw so many differences existing in arcticles. I will add this guideline to the styleguide. − Woodstone 21:22, 2005 Apr 23 (UTC)
The explanation I like is that if you were to remove the bracketed part (with its brackets), then what remains should be grammatical. (norman@dcs.st-and.ac.uk)
I have been working on the
Ed, Edd n Eddy entries for the past several days, and have conceived a rather straightforward 'template' of sorts for this type of article. Please look at the layout I have applied to this article and sub-articles (the episodes) and tell me if you like it, and if it should be appended to the Wp MoS.
Ed Otto 2300, 2 May 2005 (IST)
Caesura's to change a pair of en dashes to em dashes was reverted. May I ask why? According to Chicago, em dashes are used for breaks of this nature, whereas en dashes are used for ranges, open compounds, and so on. Is it different elsewhere? — Knowledge Seeker দ 07:57, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
The following was removed from the article:
The comment on removal was:
I am not convinced that this is only a problem with serial commas used inconsistantly, but I don't think this example adds to the MOS, so I ahve moved it here. -- Chris Q 15:09, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
I agree with jguk. I was taught to not use the final comma: in those circumstances where ambiguity exists, you should use the semicolon. In my nigh on fifty years of reading fiction and non-fiction, I don't recall ever seeing a final comma ... and I'm sure it would have stuck out like a sore thumb if I did. Noisy | Talk 19:40, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
Strange that there's no mention of semicolon (";") in this (nearly non-) debate or in the serial comma article. If you have a list of items in which one of the items is a phrase that contains commas, be it for appositives or otherwise, then you just use a semicolon instead of a comma as the separator between list items, right? However, in the case of "Betty, a cow, and a piano", if Betty is the cow, then the ideal phrasing would probably, IMHO, be "a piano and Betty, a cow". Perhaps someone should look this up in Chicago? — mjb 21:27, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
I also agree with jguk. Official policy should not take a stand on this issue. Nohat 21:29, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
What about having a section along these lines (feel free to propose improvements):
I like it; I think that should be the wording. We may just want to draw attention the point in question, "ham, egg[,] and chips", but otherwise it's grand. -- Gareth Hughes 16:44, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
I have significant reservations about this change. I must admit that I'm not a serial comma user, rather dislike it, and consider the arguments for it being in any sense logical, as opposed to merely an arbitrary convention, to be pretty weak; so in that sense I'd not be at all sad to see it go. But I'm concerned about the precendent that a change to a "do your own thing" stance sets: one could iterate such "but some people won't like it" arguments over every point in the MoS, and end up saying nothing about any of them -- a "comparative essay on usage", and in effect no house style whatsoever. (Indeed, jguk's proposal is a further step on the way to doing as much -- and if there's any danger of a "package deal" effect coming into play, I'd far prefer serial commas and "logical" quotes, as at present, than end up with no serial comma and "aesthetic" quotes, or some system where we have to determine stylistic questions on a per article basis, or otherwise balkanise the article into different usages, as already arises with US vs non-US spelling.)
If such a change is to be made, I'd prefer it were in the form of an outright deletion. Having a "Manual" that discusses something without coming to any conclusion as to the correct use seems to me to be pointless: "instruction creep" in the form of a longer document, without the benefit of any actual "instruction". Alai 22:32, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I think a compromise of the above suggestion and the existing solution would be best. My suggestion is therefore:
I prefer using one to not, but there are too many people that don't use it for us to force it on them. violet/riga (t) 22:43, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I strongly object to a few days discussion among a small number of people making such a drastic change to a long-standing part of the MoS, that affects the entire project. A handful of opinions expressed within a few days of the issue being re-raised hardly represents a consensus among the thousands of Wikipedia editors. Was the issue publicized on the Village Pump? Going's on? Mailing list? Anywhere? I don't want to have to take to checking this talk page every couple days to see if there is an issue I care about that has been re-opened. Chicago and Strunk & White both support serial commas, serial commas solve ambiguity more often than they cause it, and have been the Wikipedia standard for years. I strongly object to this change. And I am sick of people making this an AE vs. BE issue--I attended public school in the US and was taught to NOT use them--it wasn't until I was an adult professional writer that I adopted that style. Niteowlneils 23:56, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Incidentally, and in response to Niteowlneils, the change does not affect the entire project - all it does is to bring the MoS in line with what has already happened on the project. The previous guidance just didn't reflect what has actually happened on Wikipedia where many, many articles do not use the mandatory Oxford comma convention. The MoS has always stated that if it goes out of kilter with what is happening on Wikipedia, it will change. The revised wording is just following that principle. Kind regards, jguk 05:16, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
I have been asked to comment on this most recent incarnation of a never-ending debate, presumably because I've passionately argued in the past to recommend (but not necessarily require) final serial comma use. Here are my observations, for whatever they're worth:
We don't expect people without a serious mathematics background to make appropriate changes to Axiomatic set theory, yet everyone feels qualified to update the Manual of Style because they've learned how to speak English in grammar school. Many MoS editors make changes without troubling themselves to read prior debates on their pet causes. As a result, the MoS can be expected to suffer from its own style whiplash, rendering it impractical as a guide. Frankly, I (and likely many other otherwise responsible editors) no longer pay any attention it, so there's no point in asking for my unworthy opinion. — Jeff Q (talk) 07:12, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't care much about serial commas either way. But because Jguk says WP tendency is not to use them, it would help if he provided evidence that shows a representative proportion. Maurreen 02:11, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
I am proposing a compromise. I think the current "there is no guidance" is not useful since 1) it is A style guide, 2) this is not an official policy page, and 3) best practices should be encouraged. Note that after reviewing my Strunk & White from 11th grade English I have changed my view (see my comments above). Trödel| talk 21:53, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm willing to accept the compromise, largely as writen now, with just three more statements: 1) Ambiguity should be avoided. I don't know why that sentence was removed. Our aim is clear writing. 2) If we can avoid ambiguity by adding one simple comma rather than rewriting the sentence, editors are free to do so. 3) In the style guides listed, include the OUP and Fowler's. They are both influential and highly regarded by many throughout the English speaking world. Jonathunder 09:02, 2005 May 19 (UTC)
I'm happy with the current phrasing, but wanted to mention here that I ran across another case where the serial comma alleviates ambiguity: when the second-to-last item in the list is qualified but the last item is not. For example, hair, a very small tail and feet. — Are the feet small like the tail? Assuming they're not, I must either rearrange the list so that the unqualified items come first, or insert a serial comma. — mjb 6 July 2005 17:13 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 10 | Archive 11 | Archive 12 | Archive 13 | Archive 14 | Archive 15 | → | Archive 20 |
Does anyone object to an addition along the following lines (and can anyone suggest better wording?):
I don't understand. What's the systemic bias you are trying to combat? As far as the particular British English style, I've looked for an example of what people may use - but have failed. I think it's more a case of there not really being a need for constructions of "Place, Country" other than at the end of a clause. All the best, jguk 08:10, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
In general, I believe that place names should be given without any country/state information in article titles. However, when a number of places have the same name, it is usual to disambiguate by giving the location after a comma. Particularly in the United States, rapid settlement patterns led to numerous places sharing the same name, and the disambiguating style has become the norm even for unambiguous place names. This does not mean that this style is only used in the US: Newport, Gwent, is an obvious British version of this style (there are other Newports in Britain); Boston, Lincolnshire, is an international disambiguation that doesn't sound at all round. Local style and good English usage should work together to determine which system is more appropriate. Technically, when a comma is used in this way, it is a bracketing comma rather than a listing comma. Therefore, in text another comma is required after Miami, Florida, for the flow of the sentence not be interrupted. I think this style is better than parentheses in titles when it is called for. -- Gareth Hughes 19:47, 10 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Yes, it is being used less frequently, but that doesn't necessarily make it right. There is some misconception that the comma is part of the name, and thus exists for itself. A comma always has to have a role in the syntax of a sentence. I think the misconception is that it is a listing comma. When I write my address, I sometimes use listing commas to separate each element (when I can write it on different lines, I don't need them: they've gone out of fashion!). These place names look a little like addresses, and so the comma may feel like a listing comma. However, the comma is bracketing off additional information: the where and which of places with the same name. As a bracketing comma, unless the phrase appears in isolation, or immediately before another punctuation mark, it should take a closing bracketing comma. This is as important, albeit not as glaring, as opening parentheses and not closing them. -- Gareth Hughes 13:32, 11 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm going to have to agree with Garzo there. If it's being used less frequently, that's only out of sheer laziness. When attention is paid to the proper placement of commas, even if it may not be entirely possible to regulate such a thing, it greatly increases Wikipedia's credibility. Improper punctuation smacks of poor workmanship. Tim Rhymeless (Er...let's shimmy) 02:08, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
I've been trying to find a proper manual or recommendation for how to cite my sources in wikipedia. Should I just adopt MLA, Chicago, APA, etc, etc? I assume I ought to use foot/end-notes, is this correct? Have I just missed the page entirely in my searches? If it does exist, I believe it at least ought be linked to the manual of style. Jxn 07:18, 2005 Apr 14 (UTC)
Does there exist an example page (ie: a dummy sample) that possesses most/all of the aspects from the Manual of Stlye that I can refer to? I think it would be easier to use than trawling the Manual of Style. -- Commander Keane 12:14, 17 Apr 2005 (UTC)
The first words of the article Internationalization and localization were recently changed from "Internationalization and localization" to "Internationalization (or internationalisation) and localization (or localisation)". Given that no human being could possibly understand one of these spellings and fail to understand the other, this seems just plain silly to me. As I understand our section on National varieties of English, it is also against policy. Could someone who has not got a personal stake in that article (which I do) please comment here and maybe revert? Thanks. -- Jmabel | Talk 05:03, Apr 19, 2005 (UTC)
Proper names begin with a capital letter. Thus "There is no god but God, and God is the god both of Christianity and Islam, and his name is God.".
I have often erroneously used philosopher quotes instead of italics when using words as names for themselves. Maybe there should be a mention in "quote usage" referring back to "words as words".
Pmurray bigpond.com 00:09, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I've had a couple of discussions in different contexts about this, but it probably needs a bit of "democratic centralism". Where a particular church is being referred to, should it be referred to as "the Church", on the grounds of an abbreviated reference to a full title containing the capitalised word "Church" (Catholic Church, United Methodist Church, etc), or should it be referred to as "the church", on the basis of referring to it as a descriptive, non-proper noun, and avoiding any possible implication of uniqueness, definitiveness, etc? (I think there are at least two NPOV issues: bodies which are incontestably churches, and which make contested claims to be "The Church" in some sense; and bodies which are contested even to the churches, but which indubitably have the word "Church" in their titles.) Alai 05:32, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
-- Gareth Hughes 11:30, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Wikipedia does not capitalize Reality or Life or Church otherwise. -- Wetman 15:33, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
For example.
The trick is simple. When one reads back the sentence, can the name of a clear specific organisation be fitted in to the text before the word 'church', with 'church' simply a shortened version of the full name. If it can, it is capitalised. If it can't, it isn't. FearÉIREANN 23:17, 20 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm aware of this usage, but it's not at all clear to me that it rises to the level of a "standard rule". Do you have a reference? (Ideally a publisher's or newspapers style guide or something at such a level.) Alai 02:18, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)
It is elementary English taught in schools - sometimes called Implicit Proper Nouns (IPNs) and Explicit Proper Nouns (EPNs). If a word though appearing not be a proper noun is in reality a shortened version of a proper noun then it is treated as a proper noun for capitalisation purposes. It is a way to avoid clumsy repetition of long proper nouns that make text complicated to read.
Two examples Number 1
Rather than writing The Roman Catholic Church's decision to elect as Roman Catholic Church's head one of the Roman Catholic Church's most outspoken conservatives has shocked many members of the Roman Catholic Church (which is a tangled mouthful) one can write The Roman Catholic Church's decision to elect as the Church's head one of its most outspoken conservatives shocked many members of the Church. The capitalisation tells the reader that the word church is not generalised but is specific: the same church named in full at the start of the sentence. Technically if you lowercase the last church it could be misinterpreted as meaning the church is in broadest sense, ie, not specifically Roman Catholic but the broad Christian Church.
Number 2
Both sentences look the same but mean something different. In Example 1 the capitalised Church shows it is an Implicit Proper Noun, linking it to the proper noun in the sentence, Roman Catholic Church. So the Church leaders are Roman Catholic Church leaders: cardinals, bishops, etc. Example 2, by lowercasing church shows that it is not an IPN. So the church is generic, not specific. So church does not mean Roman Catholic Church but any church. So it refers to non-RC figures like the Anglican Church's Archbishop of Canterbury, the head of the Lutheran Church in Rome, etc etc.
It is something English teachers recommend strongly to ensure that the reader knows unambigiously what church is meant in the sentence. Copywriters do it all the time in academic texts and encyclopaedias. It is more used in British English than in American English but my American publishers are sticklers for it; they say they prefer Irish and British authors to American ones because there is less work involved in copyediting, as the meaning of sentences are clearer on account proper use of IPNs.
Newspapers (and so their style guides) used it less often for technical reasons.
But what is written here is appearing in an encyclopaedia, not a newspaper, so it has a far longer shelf-life. Many articles deal with far more complicated subjects, at far longer length, than a 300 word piece in a newspaper. And we are using modern technology. So there is no justification in using a standard that loses the benefits of capitalisation, when the whole point of upper casing is to add clarity to sentences and minimise misunderstanding. Wikipedia is already poorly regarded academically, not because of the standard of its contents (some of which is first class, some not so) but because of its notoriously illiteracy and poor use of grammar. (I have already heard one academic roar with laughter because some idiots kept lowercasing an article's use of capitals that were there to specify that the article was about a formal legal term. What the lowercasers didn't realise was that when lowercased the term meant something totally different, and the article went from being a first class piece to a semi-literate piece of junk.
From marking academic papers and theses, I know that failure to use IPNs in many universities will result in an automatic docking of 8%. Overall failure to capitalise correctly will see 18-25% docked automatically. If wikipedia wants to be taken seriously it needs to follow high standards in a number of areas, and one key one is to know how and when to capitalise. And that flows from knowing why somethings are capitalised and some things aren't. That key to that is knowing whether some words though at first glance look as though they should be lowercased are actually implicit proper nouns that as a result should be treated as a normal proper noun. FearÉIREANN 02:34, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
Here's an example, from the Concise Columbia Encyclopedia, third edition: "Roman Catholic Church, Christian church headed by the pope, the bishop of Rome. ..." Maurreen 05:28, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I think the usage of "the church" is more NPOV and should be the established standard regardless of usage in other areas, including for uses of the body of Christ since using "the Church" pushes a specific theological concept that is not accepted by all Christians. I can see some logic in using "Church" for an IPN but only if such a style is standardized in the US and UK. Trödel| talk 16:36, 25 Apr 2005 (UTC)
A month on: has anyone found a pronouncement in an authoritative style guide (or anything even vaguely resembling such) to justify either position? Either particularised to churches (as per the buildings vs. denominations argument/suggested usage), or as regards references vs. abbreviated proper nouns in general? I've drawn something of a blank on this in the Oxford Guide to Style (though I'm still pretty sure what the Guardian'd say). Alai 22:01, 31 May 2005 (UTC)
I did not find any rules on where to put punctuation, when brackets are used. Should it appear inside the brackets (like this,) or outside (like this), or should there be any different rules for commas, full stops and question marks (like this)? − Woodstone 20:30, 2005 Apr 23 (UTC)
Sounds reasonable. I just wondered, because I saw so many differences existing in arcticles. I will add this guideline to the styleguide. − Woodstone 21:22, 2005 Apr 23 (UTC)
The explanation I like is that if you were to remove the bracketed part (with its brackets), then what remains should be grammatical. (norman@dcs.st-and.ac.uk)
I have been working on the
Ed, Edd n Eddy entries for the past several days, and have conceived a rather straightforward 'template' of sorts for this type of article. Please look at the layout I have applied to this article and sub-articles (the episodes) and tell me if you like it, and if it should be appended to the Wp MoS.
Ed Otto 2300, 2 May 2005 (IST)
Caesura's to change a pair of en dashes to em dashes was reverted. May I ask why? According to Chicago, em dashes are used for breaks of this nature, whereas en dashes are used for ranges, open compounds, and so on. Is it different elsewhere? — Knowledge Seeker দ 07:57, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
The following was removed from the article:
The comment on removal was:
I am not convinced that this is only a problem with serial commas used inconsistantly, but I don't think this example adds to the MOS, so I ahve moved it here. -- Chris Q 15:09, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
I agree with jguk. I was taught to not use the final comma: in those circumstances where ambiguity exists, you should use the semicolon. In my nigh on fifty years of reading fiction and non-fiction, I don't recall ever seeing a final comma ... and I'm sure it would have stuck out like a sore thumb if I did. Noisy | Talk 19:40, May 3, 2005 (UTC)
Strange that there's no mention of semicolon (";") in this (nearly non-) debate or in the serial comma article. If you have a list of items in which one of the items is a phrase that contains commas, be it for appositives or otherwise, then you just use a semicolon instead of a comma as the separator between list items, right? However, in the case of "Betty, a cow, and a piano", if Betty is the cow, then the ideal phrasing would probably, IMHO, be "a piano and Betty, a cow". Perhaps someone should look this up in Chicago? — mjb 21:27, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
I also agree with jguk. Official policy should not take a stand on this issue. Nohat 21:29, 3 May 2005 (UTC)
What about having a section along these lines (feel free to propose improvements):
I like it; I think that should be the wording. We may just want to draw attention the point in question, "ham, egg[,] and chips", but otherwise it's grand. -- Gareth Hughes 16:44, 7 May 2005 (UTC)
I have significant reservations about this change. I must admit that I'm not a serial comma user, rather dislike it, and consider the arguments for it being in any sense logical, as opposed to merely an arbitrary convention, to be pretty weak; so in that sense I'd not be at all sad to see it go. But I'm concerned about the precendent that a change to a "do your own thing" stance sets: one could iterate such "but some people won't like it" arguments over every point in the MoS, and end up saying nothing about any of them -- a "comparative essay on usage", and in effect no house style whatsoever. (Indeed, jguk's proposal is a further step on the way to doing as much -- and if there's any danger of a "package deal" effect coming into play, I'd far prefer serial commas and "logical" quotes, as at present, than end up with no serial comma and "aesthetic" quotes, or some system where we have to determine stylistic questions on a per article basis, or otherwise balkanise the article into different usages, as already arises with US vs non-US spelling.)
If such a change is to be made, I'd prefer it were in the form of an outright deletion. Having a "Manual" that discusses something without coming to any conclusion as to the correct use seems to me to be pointless: "instruction creep" in the form of a longer document, without the benefit of any actual "instruction". Alai 22:32, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I think a compromise of the above suggestion and the existing solution would be best. My suggestion is therefore:
I prefer using one to not, but there are too many people that don't use it for us to force it on them. violet/riga (t) 22:43, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
I strongly object to a few days discussion among a small number of people making such a drastic change to a long-standing part of the MoS, that affects the entire project. A handful of opinions expressed within a few days of the issue being re-raised hardly represents a consensus among the thousands of Wikipedia editors. Was the issue publicized on the Village Pump? Going's on? Mailing list? Anywhere? I don't want to have to take to checking this talk page every couple days to see if there is an issue I care about that has been re-opened. Chicago and Strunk & White both support serial commas, serial commas solve ambiguity more often than they cause it, and have been the Wikipedia standard for years. I strongly object to this change. And I am sick of people making this an AE vs. BE issue--I attended public school in the US and was taught to NOT use them--it wasn't until I was an adult professional writer that I adopted that style. Niteowlneils 23:56, 9 May 2005 (UTC)
Incidentally, and in response to Niteowlneils, the change does not affect the entire project - all it does is to bring the MoS in line with what has already happened on the project. The previous guidance just didn't reflect what has actually happened on Wikipedia where many, many articles do not use the mandatory Oxford comma convention. The MoS has always stated that if it goes out of kilter with what is happening on Wikipedia, it will change. The revised wording is just following that principle. Kind regards, jguk 05:16, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
I have been asked to comment on this most recent incarnation of a never-ending debate, presumably because I've passionately argued in the past to recommend (but not necessarily require) final serial comma use. Here are my observations, for whatever they're worth:
We don't expect people without a serious mathematics background to make appropriate changes to Axiomatic set theory, yet everyone feels qualified to update the Manual of Style because they've learned how to speak English in grammar school. Many MoS editors make changes without troubling themselves to read prior debates on their pet causes. As a result, the MoS can be expected to suffer from its own style whiplash, rendering it impractical as a guide. Frankly, I (and likely many other otherwise responsible editors) no longer pay any attention it, so there's no point in asking for my unworthy opinion. — Jeff Q (talk) 07:12, 10 May 2005 (UTC)
I don't care much about serial commas either way. But because Jguk says WP tendency is not to use them, it would help if he provided evidence that shows a representative proportion. Maurreen 02:11, 14 May 2005 (UTC)
I am proposing a compromise. I think the current "there is no guidance" is not useful since 1) it is A style guide, 2) this is not an official policy page, and 3) best practices should be encouraged. Note that after reviewing my Strunk & White from 11th grade English I have changed my view (see my comments above). Trödel| talk 21:53, 17 May 2005 (UTC)
I'm willing to accept the compromise, largely as writen now, with just three more statements: 1) Ambiguity should be avoided. I don't know why that sentence was removed. Our aim is clear writing. 2) If we can avoid ambiguity by adding one simple comma rather than rewriting the sentence, editors are free to do so. 3) In the style guides listed, include the OUP and Fowler's. They are both influential and highly regarded by many throughout the English speaking world. Jonathunder 09:02, 2005 May 19 (UTC)
I'm happy with the current phrasing, but wanted to mention here that I ran across another case where the serial comma alleviates ambiguity: when the second-to-last item in the list is qualified but the last item is not. For example, hair, a very small tail and feet. — Are the feet small like the tail? Assuming they're not, I must either rearrange the list so that the unqualified items come first, or insert a serial comma. — mjb 6 July 2005 17:13 (UTC)