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Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
How essential is support for ~640x480 window size (or basically anything smaller then 800x600) for accessibility reasons? This issue has come up in Wikipedia talk:2008 main page redesign proposal Nil Einne ( talk) 08:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
This article has three infoboxes, templates in the lead: I'm unsure if this placement complies. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 03:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, Graham87. If you have a moment, can you also comment on Acid dissociation constant? I have several concerns there, hard to summarize. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:00, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
{{ Timeline of MacBook Family Models}} seems to have multiple accesibility issues... Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 17:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
There's quite strident opposition to the removal of a moving image at Wikipedia_talk:Drop_the_stick_and_back_slowly_away_from_the_horse_carcass#Moving_image; and I've been reverted twice, despite pointing out the accessibility implications and citing WCAG. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 22:44, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Notwithstanding your attempt to hide behind the apron strings of WP:AGF (and a pronounced tendency to cite Wikipedia essays, guidelines, articles, and policies in an “ if it’s blue, it must be true” fashion), as I said stated above, I believe you have the best of intentions here. I’m not questioning your good faith. I simply think you have an extreme personal bias on this issue. As a result of this apparent bias, I find no validity of your arguments, which are fallacious, specious and illogical. Given that no one else is agreeing with you on this matter, that would normally be a clue for most people that you just *might* be wrong. Yet, somehow, that possibility doesn’t seem to have dawned on you.
Judging from the tone and tenor of your above response—and your responses to every single other editor who has dared to disagree with you—I believe you A) are absolutely convinced there can be no chance that you are wrong on this, and B) are taking this way too personally, and C) every disagreement is an excuse to pull any stunt to win (witness your baseless ANI against me.) Philcha and I simply disagree with your conclusions and logic. Lighten up and please stop acting like a censor who has the unilateral power to delete animations from Wikipedia. Greg L ( talk) 23:39, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
[unindent] How about this one? ~ L'Aquatique talk 01:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Please see the previous conversation, at #Moving images above. Andy: Please stop removing these images piecemeal, and claiming/implying that it is based on a recommendation that we are following. If you want the wording of the guideline changed, discuss it an WT:Image use policy. (I would suggest that "sparingly" is purposefully ambiguous - partly because instruction creep should be avoided - but mostly because there are some instances where an embedded animation is wanted, by the vast majority of editors/readers.) Please make it clear in your future discussions of this topic, that you are talking about the images such as those found at Wikipedia:Featured pictures/Engineering and technology/Machinery#Animations and Moon#Orbit and relationship to Earth and Horse gait#Gallop. Making it harder, in any way, for our casual readers to learn from these animations, should be considered from all angles before changes are made.
A few editors have suggested potential technical solutions, such as creating a userpreference that stopped animations from running by default, for the benefit of people such as yourself who find them distracting, and for the epileptic users you so tirelessly campaign on behalf of. I would recommend pursuing those strategies instead, perhaps via the Technical Pump. -- Quiddity ( talk) 22:57, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
An editor has added several divisional/Corps symbols to the following order of battle article: Operation Market Garden order of battle. Personally I think it looks ok and if it seemed ok with the wider community I was thinking of doing it myself to some order of battles I have worked on.
The way orders of battle are laid out they are rather text heavy and can be hard sometimes to see where the next division etc start.
On the same subject, I completed the following Operation Epsom order of battle and have found that it is hard to distinguish who the commanding officer of division/Corps etc is. Due to this I have made their rank and names in bold – from a MOS point of view is this acceptable?
Also any hints etc on how to make the article more accessible to the average reader?
Sorry for all the questions and thanks for the help.-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 17:05, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
It's clear from recent comments (see above) that some editors do not believe that the W3C's Web Content Accessibility Guidelines are not "relevant" to Wikipedia. I consider that to be a harmful position, but accept that there is no clear written policy (leastwise, none that I can find) mandating or recommending that those industry-standard guidelines should be followed, or to which level. Practical experience shows that it is sometimes necessary to work around certain poorly-worded or obsoleted parts, hence the (draft) WCAG 2.0 and WCAG Samurai; but I believe that there should be a clear policy that, in the absence of consensus to exempt specific cases, WCAG guidelines should be followed to a stated level; or at least that we should, as a body, strive towards doing so.
Does anyone have comments, and would people support such a move, and be willing to assist me in taking it forward? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 20:36, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Moving images are a cause of problems for people with a variety of conditions, such as epilepsy, and reading disabilities, and are distracting to many more.
WCAG guideline 7.3 states with priority 2 that we should Until user agents allow users to freeze moving content, avoid movement in pages.
You should consider what the message point of WP:DEADHORSE means. And please stop Wikilawering and trying to hide behind the apron strings of wholesome sounding rules like “WP:AGF”. You flat out stated—many times—what your intentions are. Greg L ( talk) 23:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | Archive 8 | Archive 9 | Archive 10 |
How essential is support for ~640x480 window size (or basically anything smaller then 800x600) for accessibility reasons? This issue has come up in Wikipedia talk:2008 main page redesign proposal Nil Einne ( talk) 08:37, 17 October 2008 (UTC)
This article has three infoboxes, templates in the lead: I'm unsure if this placement complies. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 03:16, 24 October 2008 (UTC)
Thank you, Graham87. If you have a moment, can you also comment on Acid dissociation constant? I have several concerns there, hard to summarize. SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 17:00, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
{{ Timeline of MacBook Family Models}} seems to have multiple accesibility issues... Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 17:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
There's quite strident opposition to the removal of a moving image at Wikipedia_talk:Drop_the_stick_and_back_slowly_away_from_the_horse_carcass#Moving_image; and I've been reverted twice, despite pointing out the accessibility implications and citing WCAG. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 22:44, 25 October 2008 (UTC)
Notwithstanding your attempt to hide behind the apron strings of WP:AGF (and a pronounced tendency to cite Wikipedia essays, guidelines, articles, and policies in an “ if it’s blue, it must be true” fashion), as I said stated above, I believe you have the best of intentions here. I’m not questioning your good faith. I simply think you have an extreme personal bias on this issue. As a result of this apparent bias, I find no validity of your arguments, which are fallacious, specious and illogical. Given that no one else is agreeing with you on this matter, that would normally be a clue for most people that you just *might* be wrong. Yet, somehow, that possibility doesn’t seem to have dawned on you.
Judging from the tone and tenor of your above response—and your responses to every single other editor who has dared to disagree with you—I believe you A) are absolutely convinced there can be no chance that you are wrong on this, and B) are taking this way too personally, and C) every disagreement is an excuse to pull any stunt to win (witness your baseless ANI against me.) Philcha and I simply disagree with your conclusions and logic. Lighten up and please stop acting like a censor who has the unilateral power to delete animations from Wikipedia. Greg L ( talk) 23:39, 1 November 2008 (UTC)
[unindent] How about this one? ~ L'Aquatique talk 01:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Please see the previous conversation, at #Moving images above. Andy: Please stop removing these images piecemeal, and claiming/implying that it is based on a recommendation that we are following. If you want the wording of the guideline changed, discuss it an WT:Image use policy. (I would suggest that "sparingly" is purposefully ambiguous - partly because instruction creep should be avoided - but mostly because there are some instances where an embedded animation is wanted, by the vast majority of editors/readers.) Please make it clear in your future discussions of this topic, that you are talking about the images such as those found at Wikipedia:Featured pictures/Engineering and technology/Machinery#Animations and Moon#Orbit and relationship to Earth and Horse gait#Gallop. Making it harder, in any way, for our casual readers to learn from these animations, should be considered from all angles before changes are made.
A few editors have suggested potential technical solutions, such as creating a userpreference that stopped animations from running by default, for the benefit of people such as yourself who find them distracting, and for the epileptic users you so tirelessly campaign on behalf of. I would recommend pursuing those strategies instead, perhaps via the Technical Pump. -- Quiddity ( talk) 22:57, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
An editor has added several divisional/Corps symbols to the following order of battle article: Operation Market Garden order of battle. Personally I think it looks ok and if it seemed ok with the wider community I was thinking of doing it myself to some order of battles I have worked on.
The way orders of battle are laid out they are rather text heavy and can be hard sometimes to see where the next division etc start.
On the same subject, I completed the following Operation Epsom order of battle and have found that it is hard to distinguish who the commanding officer of division/Corps etc is. Due to this I have made their rank and names in bold – from a MOS point of view is this acceptable?
Also any hints etc on how to make the article more accessible to the average reader?
Sorry for all the questions and thanks for the help.-- EnigmaMcmxc ( talk) 17:05, 27 October 2008 (UTC)
It's clear from recent comments (see above) that some editors do not believe that the W3C's Web Content Accessibility Guidelines are not "relevant" to Wikipedia. I consider that to be a harmful position, but accept that there is no clear written policy (leastwise, none that I can find) mandating or recommending that those industry-standard guidelines should be followed, or to which level. Practical experience shows that it is sometimes necessary to work around certain poorly-worded or obsoleted parts, hence the (draft) WCAG 2.0 and WCAG Samurai; but I believe that there should be a clear policy that, in the absence of consensus to exempt specific cases, WCAG guidelines should be followed to a stated level; or at least that we should, as a body, strive towards doing so.
Does anyone have comments, and would people support such a move, and be willing to assist me in taking it forward? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 20:36, 2 November 2008 (UTC)
Moving images are a cause of problems for people with a variety of conditions, such as epilepsy, and reading disabilities, and are distracting to many more.
WCAG guideline 7.3 states with priority 2 that we should Until user agents allow users to freeze moving content, avoid movement in pages.
You should consider what the message point of WP:DEADHORSE means. And please stop Wikilawering and trying to hide behind the apron strings of wholesome sounding rules like “WP:AGF”. You flat out stated—many times—what your intentions are. Greg L ( talk) 23:51, 2 November 2008 (UTC)