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I haven't thought this through, and I'm sleepy, so this may suck. Except for a little overlapping at WP:MOS, don't we usually operate under the principle that it's best if guidelines are on the page you expect them to be? When people look at all, they look for information on embedded lists at WP:Embedded lists, guidance on layout at WP:Layout, etc. Since we want to recommend here that people not put blank lines between bullet items in article space, wouldn't it make more sense to have this advice in WP:Embedded list, and to point there from here? We could give more details on the "accessibility" perspective here than at WP:EMBED if we think that's helpful. - Dan Dank55 ( send/receive) 02:44, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Copied from WP:VPT:
Discussion is still ongoing in the proposed redesign of the main page. A brief survey was conducted to get a sense of community opinion, and most designs have been modified to reflect the bulk of community desires. The number of proposed designs has also been reduced, and each design is now accompanied with a screen shot. Please help establish consensus, and move this proposal to the next stage of voting.
Someone might want to look at that, from an accessibility PoV. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy Mabbett; Andy Mabbett's contributions 21:24, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Found a possibly useful link, with advice on reading IPA or other Unicode characters in Jaws, by editing an .sbl file. — Michael Z. 2008-09-07 20:55 z
Please see Template talk:Unsigned#Text too small. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy Mabbett; Andy Mabbett's contributions 11:41, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
What do you folks make of {{ MtyMetro1}}, the template for Line 1 of the Monterrey Metro? Are ether any examples of good practice for such templates? Or accessible alterntaives to sit alongside them? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 17:19, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I see this was added to Category:Wikipedia style guidelines. This could be a good thing or a bad thing. If the idea is to put the kinds of arguments that are heard here on an equal footing with the arguments on other pages, that's a good thing, at least when we look at the last several months. If the idea is to create a second page where we argue about embedded lists, leads and layout, that seems like a bad thing. I'm wondering if transclusions from WP:Layout, WP:LEAD and WP:EMBED would be a good idea. - Dan Dank55 ( send/receive) 19:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
How does a screen reader deal with Decipherment of rongorongo? Also, what about color blindness? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:29, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
A colleague at WP:CHESS] has raised a question about accessible representation of fractions. My impression is that the {{frac|p|q}} approach is better for people with poor but not "disabled" eyesight, like me, but is a nightmare for those who are actually or virtually blind and have to use screen-readers, as e.g. {{frac|3|3|8}} generates the following (X)HTML:
which is not the value of the fraction but (X)HTML code for a visual representation of the value, and absolute gobbledygook when spoken. Is there a good solution both for people with poor but not "disabled" eyesight and for those who are functionally blind? -- Philcha ( talk) 21:19, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I raised an issue at Wikipedia talk:NavFrame:
Using Firefox 3 with Javascript disabled by the very widely used "NoScript" extension, I find that the "collapsible" sections on {{ Infobox Ship Begin/doc}} are already collapsed with no option to expand them.
and AlexSm has replied to point out that he raised the issue on MediaWiki talk:Common.js a year ago but nothing has been done. I view this as a serious failing; can someone assist in finding a remedy, please? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 18:53, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
I've been working on a geometry article, the Problem of Apollonius, since January and of course I'd like to make it as accessible as possible to as many readers as possible. The article is at FAC now and Sandy suggested that I ask for help here on whether the article is accessible, especially with screen readers. In particular, Figure 11 might cause a glitch? Overall the article is somewhat technical, with several images and equations. Thanks muchly for all your help! :) Willow ( talk) 09:52, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I like mathematics, but geometry was never my strong suit because I couldn't see the diagrams. I understood the intro of the article but got lost around the "Lie sphere geometry" section. To be honest it would help if I could make a tactile copy of the diagrams, but that's not possible over the Internet ... yet. A couple of specific points:
@lang
policy for Wikimedialang="fr"
declaration, because in English, "France" is pronounced differently than it is in French;title
attribute, because:
<abbr title="and so on">etc.</abbr>
;
e.g.
lang
declarations redundant); orlang="xx"
conventionremember, natural language declarations not only assist those using speech output, but those using high levels of magnification and refreshable braille displays
oedipus ( talk) 20:11, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
abbr
. Note the existence of {{
lang}}.
Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing);
Andy's talk;
Andy's edits 11:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)abbr
or acronym
, both of which are not only beneficial for accessibility, but for internationalization and disambiguation, as there are many abbreviations, such as "St." which in english can mean "street" or "saint", much like "Dr." can be an abbreviation for both "Doctor" and "Drive"; acronym expansion is essential, not only for speech users, but for those for whom english is not their first language and who may be confused by the use of an acronym.lang
signifier, such as {{fr|le mot juste}}
which would simply encase the word in a virtual <span lang="xx"> ... </span>
without the language-link prefix, as is generated by the {{lang=de|doppleganger}}
syntax.title
attribute, especially, as i have pointed out above, so that latinisms such as "ibid" can be glossed into english for those unfamiliar with latinisms; this is particularly important for those who have to use the english version of a wikipedia article because one does not exist in their primary natural language -- how is someone who speaks cantonese and mandarin primarily, but who has a reading comprehension of english, supposed to make sense of a latinism? how many native english speakers can provide the meaning of terms such as: "ibid", "op. cit.", "i.e.", or "e.g."? moreover, title
provides a means of disambiguation for identical acronyms that expand into different phrases, such as "ADA", which can mean "Americans With Disabilities Act" or the "American Dental Association" -- what happens when one discusses the ADA's ADA policies with regards treatment of patients with transmissionable diseases.title
, those who are indifferent to them or are distracted by them can ignore them, but for those who need them, they must exist as part of a document's source code in order to be exposed to those who need and desire them.Plain language markup can be accomplished with {{lang|fr|le mot juste}}
(e.g. le mot juste) as opposed to {{lang-fr|le mot juste}}
(e.g.
French: le mot juste).
Wikipedia should have as many normal accessibility features as possible, but let's remember that it isn't an English language course or specifically a learner's encyclopedia. Perhaps easily-confused abbreviations and jargon could be marked up, although I would guess that the nature of “St Mark's Cathedral” and “Portage Ave at Main St” are readily apparent without assistance. I don't think common English terms such as “etc.”, “e.g.”, “i.e.”, “ibid.”, etc. should be marked up, just as a normal printed publication doesn't put these into a glossary. It is the responsibility of the reader of any reference to be able to read the language, if necessary with the help of their own dictionary (or even some sort of free encyclopedia). — Michael Z. 2008-10-14 18:49 z
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | ← | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | Archive 6 | Archive 7 | → | Archive 10 |
I haven't thought this through, and I'm sleepy, so this may suck. Except for a little overlapping at WP:MOS, don't we usually operate under the principle that it's best if guidelines are on the page you expect them to be? When people look at all, they look for information on embedded lists at WP:Embedded lists, guidance on layout at WP:Layout, etc. Since we want to recommend here that people not put blank lines between bullet items in article space, wouldn't it make more sense to have this advice in WP:Embedded list, and to point there from here? We could give more details on the "accessibility" perspective here than at WP:EMBED if we think that's helpful. - Dan Dank55 ( send/receive) 02:44, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
Copied from WP:VPT:
Discussion is still ongoing in the proposed redesign of the main page. A brief survey was conducted to get a sense of community opinion, and most designs have been modified to reflect the bulk of community desires. The number of proposed designs has also been reduced, and each design is now accompanied with a screen shot. Please help establish consensus, and move this proposal to the next stage of voting.
Someone might want to look at that, from an accessibility PoV. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy Mabbett; Andy Mabbett's contributions 21:24, 6 September 2008 (UTC)
Found a possibly useful link, with advice on reading IPA or other Unicode characters in Jaws, by editing an .sbl file. — Michael Z. 2008-09-07 20:55 z
Please see Template talk:Unsigned#Text too small. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy Mabbett; Andy Mabbett's contributions 11:41, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
What do you folks make of {{ MtyMetro1}}, the template for Line 1 of the Monterrey Metro? Are ether any examples of good practice for such templates? Or accessible alterntaives to sit alongside them? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 17:19, 8 September 2008 (UTC)
I see this was added to Category:Wikipedia style guidelines. This could be a good thing or a bad thing. If the idea is to put the kinds of arguments that are heard here on an equal footing with the arguments on other pages, that's a good thing, at least when we look at the last several months. If the idea is to create a second page where we argue about embedded lists, leads and layout, that seems like a bad thing. I'm wondering if transclusions from WP:Layout, WP:LEAD and WP:EMBED would be a good idea. - Dan Dank55 ( send/receive) 19:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)
How does a screen reader deal with Decipherment of rongorongo? Also, what about color blindness? SandyGeorgia ( Talk) 19:29, 12 September 2008 (UTC)
A colleague at WP:CHESS] has raised a question about accessible representation of fractions. My impression is that the {{frac|p|q}} approach is better for people with poor but not "disabled" eyesight, like me, but is a nightmare for those who are actually or virtually blind and have to use screen-readers, as e.g. {{frac|3|3|8}} generates the following (X)HTML:
which is not the value of the fraction but (X)HTML code for a visual representation of the value, and absolute gobbledygook when spoken. Is there a good solution both for people with poor but not "disabled" eyesight and for those who are functionally blind? -- Philcha ( talk) 21:19, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I raised an issue at Wikipedia talk:NavFrame:
Using Firefox 3 with Javascript disabled by the very widely used "NoScript" extension, I find that the "collapsible" sections on {{ Infobox Ship Begin/doc}} are already collapsed with no option to expand them.
and AlexSm has replied to point out that he raised the issue on MediaWiki talk:Common.js a year ago but nothing has been done. I view this as a serious failing; can someone assist in finding a remedy, please? Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 18:53, 22 September 2008 (UTC)
I've been working on a geometry article, the Problem of Apollonius, since January and of course I'd like to make it as accessible as possible to as many readers as possible. The article is at FAC now and Sandy suggested that I ask for help here on whether the article is accessible, especially with screen readers. In particular, Figure 11 might cause a glitch? Overall the article is somewhat technical, with several images and equations. Thanks muchly for all your help! :) Willow ( talk) 09:52, 24 September 2008 (UTC)
I like mathematics, but geometry was never my strong suit because I couldn't see the diagrams. I understood the intro of the article but got lost around the "Lie sphere geometry" section. To be honest it would help if I could make a tactile copy of the diagrams, but that's not possible over the Internet ... yet. A couple of specific points:
@lang
policy for Wikimedialang="fr"
declaration, because in English, "France" is pronounced differently than it is in French;title
attribute, because:
<abbr title="and so on">etc.</abbr>
;
e.g.
lang
declarations redundant); orlang="xx"
conventionremember, natural language declarations not only assist those using speech output, but those using high levels of magnification and refreshable braille displays
oedipus ( talk) 20:11, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
abbr
. Note the existence of {{
lang}}.
Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing);
Andy's talk;
Andy's edits 11:49, 29 September 2008 (UTC)abbr
or acronym
, both of which are not only beneficial for accessibility, but for internationalization and disambiguation, as there are many abbreviations, such as "St." which in english can mean "street" or "saint", much like "Dr." can be an abbreviation for both "Doctor" and "Drive"; acronym expansion is essential, not only for speech users, but for those for whom english is not their first language and who may be confused by the use of an acronym.lang
signifier, such as {{fr|le mot juste}}
which would simply encase the word in a virtual <span lang="xx"> ... </span>
without the language-link prefix, as is generated by the {{lang=de|doppleganger}}
syntax.title
attribute, especially, as i have pointed out above, so that latinisms such as "ibid" can be glossed into english for those unfamiliar with latinisms; this is particularly important for those who have to use the english version of a wikipedia article because one does not exist in their primary natural language -- how is someone who speaks cantonese and mandarin primarily, but who has a reading comprehension of english, supposed to make sense of a latinism? how many native english speakers can provide the meaning of terms such as: "ibid", "op. cit.", "i.e.", or "e.g."? moreover, title
provides a means of disambiguation for identical acronyms that expand into different phrases, such as "ADA", which can mean "Americans With Disabilities Act" or the "American Dental Association" -- what happens when one discusses the ADA's ADA policies with regards treatment of patients with transmissionable diseases.title
, those who are indifferent to them or are distracted by them can ignore them, but for those who need them, they must exist as part of a document's source code in order to be exposed to those who need and desire them.Plain language markup can be accomplished with {{lang|fr|le mot juste}}
(e.g. le mot juste) as opposed to {{lang-fr|le mot juste}}
(e.g.
French: le mot juste).
Wikipedia should have as many normal accessibility features as possible, but let's remember that it isn't an English language course or specifically a learner's encyclopedia. Perhaps easily-confused abbreviations and jargon could be marked up, although I would guess that the nature of “St Mark's Cathedral” and “Portage Ave at Main St” are readily apparent without assistance. I don't think common English terms such as “etc.”, “e.g.”, “i.e.”, “ibid.”, etc. should be marked up, just as a normal printed publication doesn't put these into a glossary. It is the responsibility of the reader of any reference to be able to read the language, if necessary with the help of their own dictionary (or even some sort of free encyclopedia). — Michael Z. 2008-10-14 18:49 z