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Discussion moved here from Village pump
I'm wondering what the policy is for adding corporate logos to pages is (ex. CN). I've seen a few and am wondering if they should be removed. Vancouverguy 18:08, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I've seen political party logos on a few pages - I could add them as I go - but won't until we get a decision. It could be useful to help people recognise logos - I don't imagine people would think that the page was sponsored. Secretlondon 00:00, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
Hmmm... I have no objection at all to the logo on the IBM page, for example, and I'm about to add one to the Uniting Church in Australia page. What's the problem? I think they add value to the articles. Andrewa 09:13, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I would imagine that most, if not all, logos are copyright and should not be included without the permission of the owner? Bmills 09:37, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Logos are a sensitive issue for many companies and are generally licensed to a single user publication at a time without any redistribution rights (other than normal viewing). I also want to use items like company logos (and Time magazine covers) and there's an agency which issues these licenses. In a phone call a couple of weeks ago they indicated that there would be no problem licensing the Wikipedia to use logos on an exclusive basis but that doing so allowing reuse by others was not something they could do. Other encyclopedias would need to request their own permission (which would also probably be granted if they were serious encyclopedias). Should I proceed with the applicaton process? JamesDay 12:01, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Ok, this all seems rational, but let's decide whether we want to have logos in the encyclopedia. My reasons against:
Wikipedia desperately needs more graphics. But are we this desperate???
First off, should any article that currently includes a logo have it removed until permission is sought (if that is what is decided)?
Second: Viajero raises some interesting points:
IMHO, Wikipedia would be better off without logos. Bmills 12:37, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
No need to immediately remove them because fair use applies to logos as well as other things. Logos are used to associate a visual symbol with a company to aid in recognition. So, yes, we should include almost all corporate logos. They also add to the visual appeal of he Wikipedia and are good for that reason. Requests for logos for use in encyclopedias are so common that there's a specific applicaton type "encyclopedia" in the service which handles the licensing. JamesDay 14:08, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
IANAL but the use of the logo in an article about the organisation which owns and is represented by the logo isn't likely to be a problem IMO so long as there is a caption on the logo which clearly identifies it as a sample of the logo, and the logo is accurately rendered. The image itself may be copyright, this is a different issue and needs to be resolved separately. This same caption IMO removes the problem of anyone mistakenly thinking that the organisation is somehow involved with the article, or with Wikipedia, other than in the obvious way that the article is about them. Without both this caption and accuracy, use of the logo is misleading and probably illegal, and I'd expect the owners to object.
There are three reasons the logo should be there. Firstly, it helps to identify the organisation concerned. Secondly, it's information that is encyclopedic, will be of interest to people reading the article, and which they can reasonably expect to find there. Thirdly, IMO it looks good.
So my suggestion for logo guidelines while the technicalities are being further investigated:
Is there anything along those lines in the license mentioned above? Does the license deal with all trademarks, or just those which are also corporate logos? It sounds worth having, provided signing up doesn't in any way compromise our existing commitments under the GFDL, which it may. Definitely investigate.
Alternatively, do we need a boilerplate text to ask permission of individual organisations? Andrewa 16:00, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I think we should move this discussion to a talk page. Vancouverguy 16:06, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
BTW, there's a very interesting quote and some links on this topic at Image:Canadian National Herald.png. Andrewa 00:53, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
A second thought occurs to me. I haven't tried the experiment, but I assume that Wikipedia markup lets one link directly to an image on the Web (so that it would appear to be an integral part of the article, but the image would be located/hosted on the company's own server). I know there is some controversy about "deep linking," but it seems to me that for corporate logos it would be reasonable to link to a logo image on the company's own website. For one thing, by using a link rather than a copy, the company keeps control of the image and can change/remove it. For another thing, corporate websites can be assumed to be relatively stable--the link to the log image might get stale, but at least the website itself is probably going to stay around. Dpbsmith 13:23, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Dpbsmith 17:35, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
It's a known limitation that the image upload (and all contributions, for that matter) only allow you to say GFDL at the moment. You should clarify after uploading, with an edit to the image description page which gives the actual copyright status and the most complete image source details you have. This lets people easily check on the status and work out what their own reuse rights are. I put the copyright summary in the description of that edit. The ability to link to images outide the Wikipedia was removed some months ago and it appears that it's not going to be restored any time soon. Use of a corporate logo in an encyclopedia article about the company doesn't create any grounds for a trademark action, in part because there's no prospect of the article causing people to believe that the Wikipedia is a product of the trademark holder. Jamesday 13:27, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Wikipedia sets policy generally by those with an interest in the subject discussing it and allowing due notice for people to see what is happening, then getting input as the use becomes more widespread. Any policy here is really temporary, pending the chance that it might at some point be modified in the future. If you'd like to write logo policy, just go ahead and edit the policy page to say what you think it should say, including a proposed poicy header and the date of the proposal, then people will discuss it and adjust to meet their preferences and we'll end up with a combination of the views of those participating... The image page should include some note about trademarks but I personally prefer to limit the text of the caption to wording like "limited copying" or similar and have that link to the image description page. That gives people appropriate notice that it's not GFDL or PD, without being unduly verbose. Then proceed to use logos slowly and give people time to notice and see and participate in the discussion if they wish. Jamesday 18:35, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I just added "Not GFDL" as part of the suggested boilerplate to be used when uploading a logo. That's because I just uploaded a logo, and decided that saying "see Wikipedia:Logos" was perhaps putting too much of a burden on the user. Assuming people actually bother to use the boilerplate and that people actually read the description before using the image, it seems to me that a "not GFDL" note needs to be obvious, since it is different from most Wikipedia images. Hopefully if it's clear that there are special usage considerations, people will bother to follow the Wikipedia:Logos link. Dpbsmith 23:37, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Dpbsmith 23:54, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I disagree with some of the proposed rules as outlined on the main page. Here's why.
"The only appropriate use of a corporate logo is in an article that describes the company in question (that is, in the specific article entitled "XYZ Corporation")."
There are many more appropriate uses of corporate logos, for instance, to demonstrate the design style of the person who designed the logo, or in articles criticizing a company, and in many occasions that I cannot currently imagine.
"Before including a corporate logo, take usual care to ensure that the article represents a neutral point of view. The article need not be an ad or puff piece. However, a corporate logo should not be used in close juxtaposition to text that is obviously critical of, or highly unflattering to, the company. (Similarly, defaced logos or logo parodies should not be used)."
To the contrary, a logo, especially a logo parody, is excellently suited for an article critical of a company, as it can help illustrate the sort of gripe people have with the company.
On the other hand, the official company logo on the company's article page has little chance of adding anything to the article. Read the IBM article. Now read it and watch the logo. Have you learned anything? Probably not.
I especially have to object to the singled-out urging to "take usual care to ensure that the article represents a neutral point of view". If a person's or group's displeasure with a company is described in an article, that should also happen in an NPOV way. With the current wording you are suggesting that only bland, meaningless articles can be NPOV, and that an article in which criticism on a company is described cannot by definition by NPOV.
I am also afraid that the appearance of a logo on a company page might be construed by some overzealous regulars as a reason to refuse or revert edits that otherwise would have gone in. It would have a stifling effect on the 'be bold' policy.
"In the event of a formal complaint about Wikipedia's use of a logo, from an entity that can be reasonably assumed to officially represent the company owning the logo, the appropriate response is for whoever receives the complaint to remove the logo promptly and cheerfully. No attempt should be made to re-insert the logo (except perhaps under very extraordinary circumstances, and only after extensive discussion)."
I would say that the most logical person to remove a logo is the representative of the company. This is a Wiki. If they don't like the use of their logo, they can edit the page themselves.
branko 23:54, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I've made some changes to address the issues discussed above. Putting the logo floating to the right at the start of the article is usually all that's required to be trouble-free. That's the text which is likely to be most neutral and the spot where the logo is best able to confirm that people are in the right place - doing exactly the job which the company intends the logo to do. Jamesday 19:01, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Yes, I like that much better, thanks. :-) branko 01:05, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Should logos be presented with some kind of distinctive "visual isolation fence?"
This just occurred to me. Should there be some suggested style guide for the visual presentation of a logo that includes some kind of distinctive frame--e.g. presenting the logo right-aligned but with a dotted line below and to the left of it--to cut it off and visually separate it from the text of the article (to emphasize that the logo is there as a fact about the company and does not mean that the accompanying text was authored by the company or was vetted or endorsed by it?
(I'm not presenting an example because I don't know enough about wiki markup to give a specific example (and don't have time to experiment right now...))
Just a thought. Dpbsmith 13:26, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
What about other sites using the Wikipedia logo, as on http://wikipedia.t-st.de/ ? - Patrick 07:13, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Hello again,
and sorry for my perfectible english. I see that my question about the presence of commercial logos in wikipedia pages has disappeared from the village pump, so I put it again because from my point of view, these logos don't bring any information; on the other side such a logo entertain the image of the company in our minds, that's why I consider it as advertising. Why do you think commercial firms pay a lot of money to have their logos visible during big events?
Hémant 15:47, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I wanted to address the concerns of some Wikipedians that logo use promotes the commercial interests of the company. I therefore added a paragraph describing what I see as the rationale for including a logo in an encyclopedia article:
I also added this:
This is perhaps so subjective as to be utterly useless; consider its inclusion a trial balloon. My concern here is to fend off teeming hordes of millions of people putting in 640x480-pixel logos for Sam's Central Street Gas and Convenience Mart (Buy Your Mass Lottery Tickets Here). Probably won't happen (particularly not as long as image uploads are disabled) and if it did, the policy probably wouldn't stop it, but, there it is. Dpbsmith 14:19, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I disagree with Generally, logos should be used only when the company and its logo are reasonably familiar (or when the logo itself is of interest for design or artistic reasons). A logo is always topical for an encyclopedia entry, in part because it illustrates how the company is trying to present itself and that is a useful part of the description of every company. I think the general image guidelines will eliminate the use of excessively large logos. Jamesday 01:02, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
User:Lupin has removed the following logo use guideline from the article:
and asked for a justification of this rule. This happened in response to my removing the logo from the Encarta article and listing the logo on Images for deletion because of this guideline. (Note that Lupin and Lupo are two different users! :-) Lupo 09:55, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have tentatively reinserted the logo use guideline, because I put it there in the first place and still think it is a darn good idea. I say this is tentative because this, and other portions of this page, have received very little discussion to date.
Here's why I think it's a good idea. Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer. I am not an amateur lawyer. I am not a particularly expert layperson in matters of intellectual property.
So, for the time being, I'm putting that guideline back. Once more.
(And I gotta say that of all the encyclopedia logos to fool with, using an Encarta logo, when everyone knows that Microsoft is like a vicious, mad, rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth junkyard pit bull known for spirited assertion of whatever it thinks are its intellectual-property rights, is, well, not the height of prudence).
The real question is: in cases like this should we "be bold" and wait for the logo owner to issue a relatively polite lawyer letter that hopefully will never come? Or should we have a cautious policy in place which, in case of trouble we can point to, and a record of removing contributions that violate policy?
And, in conclusion, may I quote good old Author Unknown:
Dpbsmith 20:39, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hello. I came here from Wikipedia talk:General disclaimer#trademarks. In case they help, here are my thoughts.
Following Tomos using a logo from any source should be examined carefully before integrating it into Wikipedia content, just like fair use the use of other intellectual property is subject to the constraints of economic exploitation of such property. Should a logo be used purely for informational purposes that illuminate the history, meaning, source or corporate purpose of such logo such informational use should be contemplated in an encyclopedic context such as Wikipedia. There are many volunteers who are worried about "commercial" downstream use of Wikipedia content. Information does not exist in a vacuum, and thus there are times when informational content in Wikipedia is appropriate but it may raise some questions for other derivative works. That does not mean it violates the principles of the GFDL. It just means that anyone who adopts a Wikipedia article is going to have to decide for themselves if they are misusing someone else's property. I need to point out that even though I am a lawyer, this is not legal advice. It is just my personal observation. — © Alex756 07:55, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Encyclopedia logos should be fine as long as they follow the other guidelines I would think. Fair use is for copyright. Is there something similar for registered trademarks? My assumption is if you are not using trademark to compete or influence the ability of the company in a financial way then the only protection they have is copyright and then fair use applies.
I'm assuming the restrictions on some goverment logos are like the ones on money, you are limited in size and color. I can't imagine any logo being completely outlawed. Gbleem 06:26, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be trademark not logo? Are all logos trademarks? Gbleem 06:26, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
A logo, if sufficiently creative, can be copyrighted. It's also almost probably a trademark, so both aspects need to be considered. So, you need both a use which is fair in trademark law - not confusing to consumers - and a use which is fair use in copyright law - as purely informational use in articles about the company is almost certain to be. The reason to avoid them for other encyclopedias is to avoid giving works which have a strong financial incentive to harm us ammunition to use to produce a legal case against us, even though we'd expect to win such a case. Jamesday 13:54, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
Because logos are trademarks the first point:
should be:
This is because trademark holders lose their rights (IANAL) if they don't enforce their trademark, i.e. insist they own it everywhere it appears. So long as Wikipedia publicly acknowledges a trademark it should be ok to use it. (Although the addition of copyright into the mix is another matter.) You see this sort of acknowledgement all the time in technical manuals, a boilerplate section at the beginning of the book that says "all <these> are trademark their respective owners" or some such phrasing.-- Kop 08:35, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've been uploading some wine labels (see Big White House for an example) under the "logo" rationale. This strikes me as the sort of thing that's perfect under fair use, as the interest is both artistic (many people collect wine labels) and practical (you can easily find the bottle at a store). Does anyone know for certain whether this is or is not fair use? I could always delete them all if need be, but I'd rather not. :( -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 16:36, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
Hello all,
What about government logos, not a federal govt agency's, but in particular, a US city's logo or seal? I was hoping to add Vancouver, Washington 's logo (which is a stylized V) to the wikipedia article, but on their website they say all images, text, etc. are copyright the "City of Vancouver".. -- Kvuo 21:30, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I got a problem with multiple logos. Could anyone please give some advice? The situation is as follows:
Footbal club A used a logo until 1950. Person B created a computer drawing of that old-style logo and posted it on some forum. User C uploads it to Wikipedia with no licensing information. Are these logos fair use? Please consider:
Thanks for any ideas, -- Glimz 00:56, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments. So we should probably keep historical logos... What do you think, should they be marked as {{logo}}
s or as {{historical logo}}
s within a new category? Since these logos are not used, they are not trademarks anymore; copyright will also expire one day. This puts them in a different category, doesn't it? (Of coure, since historical logos typically share design elements with the current one, they will probably never become free.)
Glimz 16:26, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
This one isn't in the list; could it be added? Logo images should always be surrounded by an image box and be labelled with a caption, to make it clear that the logo is being used as an illustration, not as a logo. Doops | talk 03:16, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
By stating that only using low resoulution version of logos is fair use, I disagree. For example if you print a page containing a low resoultion logo, the result may distort tha logo so much you can't identify it at all. Also implying that resolution has any relevancy to fair use is irrelevant, it's the usage of said image that defines fair use. → Aza Toth 18:53, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
I've made two templates for user pages. Template:Uncyclopedian and Template:H2G2Researcher. Initially they had little logos for the web sites they exist for people to link to. But now people are citing this policy to say that the use of these logos violates Wikipedia policy even when the exact same images are used in articles so that User Pages are now more restricted in their content than regular articles. Now I ask you, does that make sense? There must be something I'm fundamentally not getting about copyright law here, or else something really stupid has been going on with how site policy is written. --00:03, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I have added the following section, and it has been reverted away twice without being moved here by someone who apparently thinks it is a major change. In fact, the statutes and case law below predate the creation of this guideline, so this has always been true the entire time this guideline has been in effect. Therefore, I will be replacing it soon. -- James S. 15:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
U.S. law protects the use of trademarks by nonowners for purposes of criticism and commentary. First Amendment considerations override any expressive, noncommercial use of trademarks. "The Constitution is not offended when the [Maine] antidilution statute is applied to prevent a defendant from using a trademark without permission in order to merchandise dissimilar products or services. ... The Constitution does not, however, permit the range of the antidilution statute to encompass the unauthorized use of a trademark in a noncommercial setting such as an editorial or artistic context." (emphasis added) L.L. Bean, Inc. v. Drake Pubs., Inc., 811 F.2d 26, 31, 33 (1st Cir. 1987.)
Similarly, the Federal Trademark Dilution Act of 1995 does not apply to the "noncommercial use" of a famous mark. 15 U.S.C. 1125(c)(4)(B). The U.S. Supreme Court has defined "commercial speech" as "speech which ... propose[s] a commercial transaction." Virginia Pharmacy Ed. v. Virginia Citizens Consumer Council, Inc., 425 U.S. 748, 762 (1976.)
The only limit on this right is whether someone might think that the commentary was produced by the trademark owner. "[A]n author certainly would have a First Amendment right to write about the subject of the Boy Scouts and/or Girl Scouts. However, this right is diluted by trademark law insofar as that author cannot present her subject in a manner that confuses or misleads the public into believing, through the use of one or more trademarks, that those organizations have produced or sponsored the work in question." (emphasis added) Girl Scouts of the United States v. Bantam Doubleday Dell Publishing Group, Inc., 808 F. Supp. 1112 at 1121, n. 12 (S.D.N.Y. 1992.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nrcprm2026 ( talk • contribs)
Ed g2s has removed all football club logos from all tournment pages like Royal League 2005-06, UEFA Cup Finals and probably many more. Is this really necesary? Logos are not removed on European Cup and Champions League finals. Is it a reason for this? Arnemann 20:09, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like the following to be considered for inclusion as a guideline: "Logos that contain corporate slogans should be omitted in favour of equivalent logos that do not." This desire was sparked by reviewing the article Safeway Inc. Previously this article displayed prominently the logo Image:Safeway-logo.gif, which contained the company logo and its slogan, "Ingredients for life." It has since been replaced with Image:Safeway-logo.png, which only contains the visual logo. This additional guideline would stem from a current guideline which states "Avoid using a logo in any way that creates an impression that the purpose of its inclusion is to promote the company." Kurieeto 17:07, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Currently, the sole guideline regarding captions for logos is: "Usually, the current logo should be the logo presented. When a historical logo is used, the caption should indicate this." User:Doops proposed above that "Logo images should always be surrounded by an image box and be labelled with a caption, to make it clear that the logo is being used as an illustration, not as a logo." I second Doops' idea, on the grounds that captions would remove the chance of logos in articles being interperted as anything other than encyclopedic illustrations. It would also further address the guideline that "Avoid using a logo in any way that creates an impression that the purpose of its inclusion is to promote the company." Furthermore there seems to have been support for the mandatory captioning of logos back in previous discussions here ( Initial discussion and Continued discussion), but I can't pinpoint from those discussions why such a guideline was never implemented. Kurieeto 17:21, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
It's been a week since the original proposal was made and there have been no objections, so I've added this guideline to the list. Kurieeto 23:02, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
What does everyone think about removing the section on trademark law? I don't think it adds anything to this guideline, for the following reasons:
I think that adding a few paragraphs of court precedent at the end is simply redundant (discussing fair use), irrelevant (discussing non-commercial use), and solely offers confusion to the masses on Wikipedia with no understanding of copyright law. I will be making the changes soon if there are no strong objections. In addition, I am looking at copyediting this page for greater accessibility, namely by dividing that long list of bullet points into subsections — the procedure for using a logo, what to do if there are objections, formatting of the logo, etc., and was wondering if anyone had any suggestions or input. Thanks! — Rebelguys2 talk 20:14, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
This is an area I'm just not sure on - is a stub template a permissible location for a logo? The stub I'm referring to is: Template:melbourne-rail-stub. Whilst the logo is probably the ideal icon for the template, I'm unsure as to whether it is an allowed use. Looking forward to clarification -- Evan C ( Talk) 13:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I believe that we can only use a logo "to illustrate the corporation, sports team, or organization in question" (quoted from the template logo template). As long as the stub template is used only on those articles that are about subjects under the same governing entity (company, team, government, ect...) then there shouldn't be a problem. For example, you should be able to use the Oscar Mayer corporate logo on a stub templates that are put on articles about products it produces like Lunchables. Also, check out [Category:Canada government stubs]. Note that uses a {{symbol}} tagged image instead of the {{logo}} tag that we use, but the legal provisions are similar.
As far as your Melbourne rail issue, I'm pretty sure that the use of that logo is fine--after a cursory examination of its use. For design issues, a logo without the slogan would look much better when it is shown that small (and such a logo is preferred in any use--see above discussions). Any other thoughts? -- Adam Clark (User_Talk) (email) 09:51, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Site with nearly 5000 logos in Adobe Illustrator format. They seem to be copyrighted, but if fair use is being claimed, that shouldn't be an issue, should it? grendel| khan 00:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I have added a photograph of a logo at Society of Professional Journalists - what do you think about that? How about if we took photos of logos and put them up? So, for example, if we went to the local Safeway, took a photo of its sign, and posted it, it would be a depiction of their logo. The photo is our own work. What are people's thoughts about this? Guroadrunner 12:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
There's a sentence at WP:NOR that kind of confuses me on this issue: Wikipedia editors have always been encouraged to take photos or draw pictures and upload them, releasing them under the GFDL or another free licence, to illustrate articles. (emphasis added) This doesn't seem to really apply to logos, at least not in current practice. It seems to be more intended for "original works" (such as taking a picture of a traffic jam to illustrate the concept of traffic jam) and not pursuits to obtain images of trademarks like logos. However, even though a photo of a sign like "Welcome to Florida" might not constitute an original work in the context of this discussion, it arguably would from the standpoint of the above sentence. User-made reproductions of logos seem to be in a minor gray area, but I'm reading into this and other things that it is good to use. There's a suggestion at WP:FU that user-made images are actually preferred, which contradicts this page's policy that images from web sites should be used where possible, and in any case doesn't make sense with regard to logos - especially if they're logos displayed off of a screenshot from TV or a computer screen, since that has some disturbing similarities to piracy. (end mindless, confusing, ignorant, pointless, and probably thread-killing rant that has bored everyone to sleep at this point) -- Morgan Wick 03:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Can logos be uploaded under fairuse, in SVG? I say this because User:9cds has recently speedy deleted several images I uploaded (I extracted it from a PDF) and told me you can't. BUT there are many popular article (e.g. Microsoft) which have logos which are in SVG. Can or can't they be SVG? - Рэд хот 20:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Defaced logos or logo parodies should be used with care and not given undue prominence. Parodies of logos can be used under fair use in an article about a parody site or campaign against some aspect of the operations of the company, but in an article about the company itself, a parody is less likely to be as important and less likely to be fair use.
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Discussion moved here from Village pump
I'm wondering what the policy is for adding corporate logos to pages is (ex. CN). I've seen a few and am wondering if they should be removed. Vancouverguy 18:08, 15 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I've seen political party logos on a few pages - I could add them as I go - but won't until we get a decision. It could be useful to help people recognise logos - I don't imagine people would think that the page was sponsored. Secretlondon 00:00, Nov 17, 2003 (UTC)
Hmmm... I have no objection at all to the logo on the IBM page, for example, and I'm about to add one to the Uniting Church in Australia page. What's the problem? I think they add value to the articles. Andrewa 09:13, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I would imagine that most, if not all, logos are copyright and should not be included without the permission of the owner? Bmills 09:37, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Logos are a sensitive issue for many companies and are generally licensed to a single user publication at a time without any redistribution rights (other than normal viewing). I also want to use items like company logos (and Time magazine covers) and there's an agency which issues these licenses. In a phone call a couple of weeks ago they indicated that there would be no problem licensing the Wikipedia to use logos on an exclusive basis but that doing so allowing reuse by others was not something they could do. Other encyclopedias would need to request their own permission (which would also probably be granted if they were serious encyclopedias). Should I proceed with the applicaton process? JamesDay 12:01, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Ok, this all seems rational, but let's decide whether we want to have logos in the encyclopedia. My reasons against:
Wikipedia desperately needs more graphics. But are we this desperate???
First off, should any article that currently includes a logo have it removed until permission is sought (if that is what is decided)?
Second: Viajero raises some interesting points:
IMHO, Wikipedia would be better off without logos. Bmills 12:37, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
No need to immediately remove them because fair use applies to logos as well as other things. Logos are used to associate a visual symbol with a company to aid in recognition. So, yes, we should include almost all corporate logos. They also add to the visual appeal of he Wikipedia and are good for that reason. Requests for logos for use in encyclopedias are so common that there's a specific applicaton type "encyclopedia" in the service which handles the licensing. JamesDay 14:08, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
IANAL but the use of the logo in an article about the organisation which owns and is represented by the logo isn't likely to be a problem IMO so long as there is a caption on the logo which clearly identifies it as a sample of the logo, and the logo is accurately rendered. The image itself may be copyright, this is a different issue and needs to be resolved separately. This same caption IMO removes the problem of anyone mistakenly thinking that the organisation is somehow involved with the article, or with Wikipedia, other than in the obvious way that the article is about them. Without both this caption and accuracy, use of the logo is misleading and probably illegal, and I'd expect the owners to object.
There are three reasons the logo should be there. Firstly, it helps to identify the organisation concerned. Secondly, it's information that is encyclopedic, will be of interest to people reading the article, and which they can reasonably expect to find there. Thirdly, IMO it looks good.
So my suggestion for logo guidelines while the technicalities are being further investigated:
Is there anything along those lines in the license mentioned above? Does the license deal with all trademarks, or just those which are also corporate logos? It sounds worth having, provided signing up doesn't in any way compromise our existing commitments under the GFDL, which it may. Definitely investigate.
Alternatively, do we need a boilerplate text to ask permission of individual organisations? Andrewa 16:00, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
I think we should move this discussion to a talk page. Vancouverguy 16:06, 17 Nov 2003 (UTC)
BTW, there's a very interesting quote and some links on this topic at Image:Canadian National Herald.png. Andrewa 00:53, 18 Nov 2003 (UTC)
A second thought occurs to me. I haven't tried the experiment, but I assume that Wikipedia markup lets one link directly to an image on the Web (so that it would appear to be an integral part of the article, but the image would be located/hosted on the company's own server). I know there is some controversy about "deep linking," but it seems to me that for corporate logos it would be reasonable to link to a logo image on the company's own website. For one thing, by using a link rather than a copy, the company keeps control of the image and can change/remove it. For another thing, corporate websites can be assumed to be relatively stable--the link to the log image might get stale, but at least the website itself is probably going to stay around. Dpbsmith 13:23, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Dpbsmith 17:35, 3 Dec 2003 (UTC)
It's a known limitation that the image upload (and all contributions, for that matter) only allow you to say GFDL at the moment. You should clarify after uploading, with an edit to the image description page which gives the actual copyright status and the most complete image source details you have. This lets people easily check on the status and work out what their own reuse rights are. I put the copyright summary in the description of that edit. The ability to link to images outide the Wikipedia was removed some months ago and it appears that it's not going to be restored any time soon. Use of a corporate logo in an encyclopedia article about the company doesn't create any grounds for a trademark action, in part because there's no prospect of the article causing people to believe that the Wikipedia is a product of the trademark holder. Jamesday 13:27, 4 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Wikipedia sets policy generally by those with an interest in the subject discussing it and allowing due notice for people to see what is happening, then getting input as the use becomes more widespread. Any policy here is really temporary, pending the chance that it might at some point be modified in the future. If you'd like to write logo policy, just go ahead and edit the policy page to say what you think it should say, including a proposed poicy header and the date of the proposal, then people will discuss it and adjust to meet their preferences and we'll end up with a combination of the views of those participating... The image page should include some note about trademarks but I personally prefer to limit the text of the caption to wording like "limited copying" or similar and have that link to the image description page. That gives people appropriate notice that it's not GFDL or PD, without being unduly verbose. Then proceed to use logos slowly and give people time to notice and see and participate in the discussion if they wish. Jamesday 18:35, 7 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I just added "Not GFDL" as part of the suggested boilerplate to be used when uploading a logo. That's because I just uploaded a logo, and decided that saying "see Wikipedia:Logos" was perhaps putting too much of a burden on the user. Assuming people actually bother to use the boilerplate and that people actually read the description before using the image, it seems to me that a "not GFDL" note needs to be obvious, since it is different from most Wikipedia images. Hopefully if it's clear that there are special usage considerations, people will bother to follow the Wikipedia:Logos link. Dpbsmith 23:37, 14 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Dpbsmith 23:54, 8 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I disagree with some of the proposed rules as outlined on the main page. Here's why.
"The only appropriate use of a corporate logo is in an article that describes the company in question (that is, in the specific article entitled "XYZ Corporation")."
There are many more appropriate uses of corporate logos, for instance, to demonstrate the design style of the person who designed the logo, or in articles criticizing a company, and in many occasions that I cannot currently imagine.
"Before including a corporate logo, take usual care to ensure that the article represents a neutral point of view. The article need not be an ad or puff piece. However, a corporate logo should not be used in close juxtaposition to text that is obviously critical of, or highly unflattering to, the company. (Similarly, defaced logos or logo parodies should not be used)."
To the contrary, a logo, especially a logo parody, is excellently suited for an article critical of a company, as it can help illustrate the sort of gripe people have with the company.
On the other hand, the official company logo on the company's article page has little chance of adding anything to the article. Read the IBM article. Now read it and watch the logo. Have you learned anything? Probably not.
I especially have to object to the singled-out urging to "take usual care to ensure that the article represents a neutral point of view". If a person's or group's displeasure with a company is described in an article, that should also happen in an NPOV way. With the current wording you are suggesting that only bland, meaningless articles can be NPOV, and that an article in which criticism on a company is described cannot by definition by NPOV.
I am also afraid that the appearance of a logo on a company page might be construed by some overzealous regulars as a reason to refuse or revert edits that otherwise would have gone in. It would have a stifling effect on the 'be bold' policy.
"In the event of a formal complaint about Wikipedia's use of a logo, from an entity that can be reasonably assumed to officially represent the company owning the logo, the appropriate response is for whoever receives the complaint to remove the logo promptly and cheerfully. No attempt should be made to re-insert the logo (except perhaps under very extraordinary circumstances, and only after extensive discussion)."
I would say that the most logical person to remove a logo is the representative of the company. This is a Wiki. If they don't like the use of their logo, they can edit the page themselves.
branko 23:54, 11 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I've made some changes to address the issues discussed above. Putting the logo floating to the right at the start of the article is usually all that's required to be trouble-free. That's the text which is likely to be most neutral and the spot where the logo is best able to confirm that people are in the right place - doing exactly the job which the company intends the logo to do. Jamesday 19:01, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Yes, I like that much better, thanks. :-) branko 01:05, 13 Dec 2003 (UTC)
Should logos be presented with some kind of distinctive "visual isolation fence?"
This just occurred to me. Should there be some suggested style guide for the visual presentation of a logo that includes some kind of distinctive frame--e.g. presenting the logo right-aligned but with a dotted line below and to the left of it--to cut it off and visually separate it from the text of the article (to emphasize that the logo is there as a fact about the company and does not mean that the accompanying text was authored by the company or was vetted or endorsed by it?
(I'm not presenting an example because I don't know enough about wiki markup to give a specific example (and don't have time to experiment right now...))
Just a thought. Dpbsmith 13:26, 12 Dec 2003 (UTC)
What about other sites using the Wikipedia logo, as on http://wikipedia.t-st.de/ ? - Patrick 07:13, 19 Nov 2003 (UTC)
Hello again,
and sorry for my perfectible english. I see that my question about the presence of commercial logos in wikipedia pages has disappeared from the village pump, so I put it again because from my point of view, these logos don't bring any information; on the other side such a logo entertain the image of the company in our minds, that's why I consider it as advertising. Why do you think commercial firms pay a lot of money to have their logos visible during big events?
Hémant 15:47, 27 Dec 2003 (UTC)
I wanted to address the concerns of some Wikipedians that logo use promotes the commercial interests of the company. I therefore added a paragraph describing what I see as the rationale for including a logo in an encyclopedia article:
I also added this:
This is perhaps so subjective as to be utterly useless; consider its inclusion a trial balloon. My concern here is to fend off teeming hordes of millions of people putting in 640x480-pixel logos for Sam's Central Street Gas and Convenience Mart (Buy Your Mass Lottery Tickets Here). Probably won't happen (particularly not as long as image uploads are disabled) and if it did, the policy probably wouldn't stop it, but, there it is. Dpbsmith 14:19, 3 Jan 2004 (UTC)
I disagree with Generally, logos should be used only when the company and its logo are reasonably familiar (or when the logo itself is of interest for design or artistic reasons). A logo is always topical for an encyclopedia entry, in part because it illustrates how the company is trying to present itself and that is a useful part of the description of every company. I think the general image guidelines will eliminate the use of excessively large logos. Jamesday 01:02, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)
User:Lupin has removed the following logo use guideline from the article:
and asked for a justification of this rule. This happened in response to my removing the logo from the Encarta article and listing the logo on Images for deletion because of this guideline. (Note that Lupin and Lupo are two different users! :-) Lupo 09:55, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I have tentatively reinserted the logo use guideline, because I put it there in the first place and still think it is a darn good idea. I say this is tentative because this, and other portions of this page, have received very little discussion to date.
Here's why I think it's a good idea. Disclaimers: I am not a lawyer. I am not an amateur lawyer. I am not a particularly expert layperson in matters of intellectual property.
So, for the time being, I'm putting that guideline back. Once more.
(And I gotta say that of all the encyclopedia logos to fool with, using an Encarta logo, when everyone knows that Microsoft is like a vicious, mad, rabid, foaming-at-the-mouth junkyard pit bull known for spirited assertion of whatever it thinks are its intellectual-property rights, is, well, not the height of prudence).
The real question is: in cases like this should we "be bold" and wait for the logo owner to issue a relatively polite lawyer letter that hopefully will never come? Or should we have a cautious policy in place which, in case of trouble we can point to, and a record of removing contributions that violate policy?
And, in conclusion, may I quote good old Author Unknown:
Dpbsmith 20:39, 29 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Hello. I came here from Wikipedia talk:General disclaimer#trademarks. In case they help, here are my thoughts.
Following Tomos using a logo from any source should be examined carefully before integrating it into Wikipedia content, just like fair use the use of other intellectual property is subject to the constraints of economic exploitation of such property. Should a logo be used purely for informational purposes that illuminate the history, meaning, source or corporate purpose of such logo such informational use should be contemplated in an encyclopedic context such as Wikipedia. There are many volunteers who are worried about "commercial" downstream use of Wikipedia content. Information does not exist in a vacuum, and thus there are times when informational content in Wikipedia is appropriate but it may raise some questions for other derivative works. That does not mean it violates the principles of the GFDL. It just means that anyone who adopts a Wikipedia article is going to have to decide for themselves if they are misusing someone else's property. I need to point out that even though I am a lawyer, this is not legal advice. It is just my personal observation. — © Alex756 07:55, 30 Mar 2004 (UTC)
Encyclopedia logos should be fine as long as they follow the other guidelines I would think. Fair use is for copyright. Is there something similar for registered trademarks? My assumption is if you are not using trademark to compete or influence the ability of the company in a financial way then the only protection they have is copyright and then fair use applies.
I'm assuming the restrictions on some goverment logos are like the ones on money, you are limited in size and color. I can't imagine any logo being completely outlawed. Gbleem 06:26, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
Shouldn't this be trademark not logo? Are all logos trademarks? Gbleem 06:26, 6 Apr 2004 (UTC)
A logo, if sufficiently creative, can be copyrighted. It's also almost probably a trademark, so both aspects need to be considered. So, you need both a use which is fair in trademark law - not confusing to consumers - and a use which is fair use in copyright law - as purely informational use in articles about the company is almost certain to be. The reason to avoid them for other encyclopedias is to avoid giving works which have a strong financial incentive to harm us ammunition to use to produce a legal case against us, even though we'd expect to win such a case. Jamesday 13:54, 22 May 2004 (UTC)
Because logos are trademarks the first point:
should be:
This is because trademark holders lose their rights (IANAL) if they don't enforce their trademark, i.e. insist they own it everywhere it appears. So long as Wikipedia publicly acknowledges a trademark it should be ok to use it. (Although the addition of copyright into the mix is another matter.) You see this sort of acknowledgement all the time in technical manuals, a boilerplate section at the beginning of the book that says "all <these> are trademark their respective owners" or some such phrasing.-- Kop 08:35, 7 Aug 2004 (UTC)
I've been uploading some wine labels (see Big White House for an example) under the "logo" rationale. This strikes me as the sort of thing that's perfect under fair use, as the interest is both artistic (many people collect wine labels) and practical (you can easily find the bottle at a store). Does anyone know for certain whether this is or is not fair use? I could always delete them all if need be, but I'd rather not. :( -- Dante Alighieri | Talk 16:36, Mar 9, 2005 (UTC)
Hello all,
What about government logos, not a federal govt agency's, but in particular, a US city's logo or seal? I was hoping to add Vancouver, Washington 's logo (which is a stylized V) to the wikipedia article, but on their website they say all images, text, etc. are copyright the "City of Vancouver".. -- Kvuo 21:30, 15 July 2005 (UTC)
Hi, I got a problem with multiple logos. Could anyone please give some advice? The situation is as follows:
Footbal club A used a logo until 1950. Person B created a computer drawing of that old-style logo and posted it on some forum. User C uploads it to Wikipedia with no licensing information. Are these logos fair use? Please consider:
Thanks for any ideas, -- Glimz 00:56, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments. So we should probably keep historical logos... What do you think, should they be marked as {{logo}}
s or as {{historical logo}}
s within a new category? Since these logos are not used, they are not trademarks anymore; copyright will also expire one day. This puts them in a different category, doesn't it? (Of coure, since historical logos typically share design elements with the current one, they will probably never become free.)
Glimz 16:26, August 2, 2005 (UTC)
This one isn't in the list; could it be added? Logo images should always be surrounded by an image box and be labelled with a caption, to make it clear that the logo is being used as an illustration, not as a logo. Doops | talk 03:16, 19 December 2005 (UTC)
By stating that only using low resoulution version of logos is fair use, I disagree. For example if you print a page containing a low resoultion logo, the result may distort tha logo so much you can't identify it at all. Also implying that resolution has any relevancy to fair use is irrelevant, it's the usage of said image that defines fair use. → Aza Toth 18:53, 29 December 2005 (UTC)
I've made two templates for user pages. Template:Uncyclopedian and Template:H2G2Researcher. Initially they had little logos for the web sites they exist for people to link to. But now people are citing this policy to say that the use of these logos violates Wikipedia policy even when the exact same images are used in articles so that User Pages are now more restricted in their content than regular articles. Now I ask you, does that make sense? There must be something I'm fundamentally not getting about copyright law here, or else something really stupid has been going on with how site policy is written. --00:03, 16 January 2006 (UTC)
I have added the following section, and it has been reverted away twice without being moved here by someone who apparently thinks it is a major change. In fact, the statutes and case law below predate the creation of this guideline, so this has always been true the entire time this guideline has been in effect. Therefore, I will be replacing it soon. -- James S. 15:19, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
U.S. law protects the use of trademarks by nonowners for purposes of criticism and commentary. First Amendment considerations override any expressive, noncommercial use of trademarks. "The Constitution is not offended when the [Maine] antidilution statute is applied to prevent a defendant from using a trademark without permission in order to merchandise dissimilar products or services. ... The Constitution does not, however, permit the range of the antidilution statute to encompass the unauthorized use of a trademark in a noncommercial setting such as an editorial or artistic context." (emphasis added) L.L. Bean, Inc. v. Drake Pubs., Inc., 811 F.2d 26, 31, 33 (1st Cir. 1987.)
Similarly, the Federal Trademark Dilution Act of 1995 does not apply to the "noncommercial use" of a famous mark. 15 U.S.C. 1125(c)(4)(B). The U.S. Supreme Court has defined "commercial speech" as "speech which ... propose[s] a commercial transaction." Virginia Pharmacy Ed. v. Virginia Citizens Consumer Council, Inc., 425 U.S. 748, 762 (1976.)
The only limit on this right is whether someone might think that the commentary was produced by the trademark owner. "[A]n author certainly would have a First Amendment right to write about the subject of the Boy Scouts and/or Girl Scouts. However, this right is diluted by trademark law insofar as that author cannot present her subject in a manner that confuses or misleads the public into believing, through the use of one or more trademarks, that those organizations have produced or sponsored the work in question." (emphasis added) Girl Scouts of the United States v. Bantam Doubleday Dell Publishing Group, Inc., 808 F. Supp. 1112 at 1121, n. 12 (S.D.N.Y. 1992.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nrcprm2026 ( talk • contribs)
Ed g2s has removed all football club logos from all tournment pages like Royal League 2005-06, UEFA Cup Finals and probably many more. Is this really necesary? Logos are not removed on European Cup and Champions League finals. Is it a reason for this? Arnemann 20:09, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
I would like the following to be considered for inclusion as a guideline: "Logos that contain corporate slogans should be omitted in favour of equivalent logos that do not." This desire was sparked by reviewing the article Safeway Inc. Previously this article displayed prominently the logo Image:Safeway-logo.gif, which contained the company logo and its slogan, "Ingredients for life." It has since been replaced with Image:Safeway-logo.png, which only contains the visual logo. This additional guideline would stem from a current guideline which states "Avoid using a logo in any way that creates an impression that the purpose of its inclusion is to promote the company." Kurieeto 17:07, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
Currently, the sole guideline regarding captions for logos is: "Usually, the current logo should be the logo presented. When a historical logo is used, the caption should indicate this." User:Doops proposed above that "Logo images should always be surrounded by an image box and be labelled with a caption, to make it clear that the logo is being used as an illustration, not as a logo." I second Doops' idea, on the grounds that captions would remove the chance of logos in articles being interperted as anything other than encyclopedic illustrations. It would also further address the guideline that "Avoid using a logo in any way that creates an impression that the purpose of its inclusion is to promote the company." Furthermore there seems to have been support for the mandatory captioning of logos back in previous discussions here ( Initial discussion and Continued discussion), but I can't pinpoint from those discussions why such a guideline was never implemented. Kurieeto 17:21, 3 March 2006 (UTC)
It's been a week since the original proposal was made and there have been no objections, so I've added this guideline to the list. Kurieeto 23:02, 10 March 2006 (UTC)
What does everyone think about removing the section on trademark law? I don't think it adds anything to this guideline, for the following reasons:
I think that adding a few paragraphs of court precedent at the end is simply redundant (discussing fair use), irrelevant (discussing non-commercial use), and solely offers confusion to the masses on Wikipedia with no understanding of copyright law. I will be making the changes soon if there are no strong objections. In addition, I am looking at copyediting this page for greater accessibility, namely by dividing that long list of bullet points into subsections — the procedure for using a logo, what to do if there are objections, formatting of the logo, etc., and was wondering if anyone had any suggestions or input. Thanks! — Rebelguys2 talk 20:14, 12 March 2006 (UTC)
This is an area I'm just not sure on - is a stub template a permissible location for a logo? The stub I'm referring to is: Template:melbourne-rail-stub. Whilst the logo is probably the ideal icon for the template, I'm unsure as to whether it is an allowed use. Looking forward to clarification -- Evan C ( Talk) 13:50, 23 March 2006 (UTC)
I believe that we can only use a logo "to illustrate the corporation, sports team, or organization in question" (quoted from the template logo template). As long as the stub template is used only on those articles that are about subjects under the same governing entity (company, team, government, ect...) then there shouldn't be a problem. For example, you should be able to use the Oscar Mayer corporate logo on a stub templates that are put on articles about products it produces like Lunchables. Also, check out [Category:Canada government stubs]. Note that uses a {{symbol}} tagged image instead of the {{logo}} tag that we use, but the legal provisions are similar.
As far as your Melbourne rail issue, I'm pretty sure that the use of that logo is fine--after a cursory examination of its use. For design issues, a logo without the slogan would look much better when it is shown that small (and such a logo is preferred in any use--see above discussions). Any other thoughts? -- Adam Clark (User_Talk) (email) 09:51, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
Site with nearly 5000 logos in Adobe Illustrator format. They seem to be copyrighted, but if fair use is being claimed, that shouldn't be an issue, should it? grendel| khan 00:22, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
Hello, I have added a photograph of a logo at Society of Professional Journalists - what do you think about that? How about if we took photos of logos and put them up? So, for example, if we went to the local Safeway, took a photo of its sign, and posted it, it would be a depiction of their logo. The photo is our own work. What are people's thoughts about this? Guroadrunner 12:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
There's a sentence at WP:NOR that kind of confuses me on this issue: Wikipedia editors have always been encouraged to take photos or draw pictures and upload them, releasing them under the GFDL or another free licence, to illustrate articles. (emphasis added) This doesn't seem to really apply to logos, at least not in current practice. It seems to be more intended for "original works" (such as taking a picture of a traffic jam to illustrate the concept of traffic jam) and not pursuits to obtain images of trademarks like logos. However, even though a photo of a sign like "Welcome to Florida" might not constitute an original work in the context of this discussion, it arguably would from the standpoint of the above sentence. User-made reproductions of logos seem to be in a minor gray area, but I'm reading into this and other things that it is good to use. There's a suggestion at WP:FU that user-made images are actually preferred, which contradicts this page's policy that images from web sites should be used where possible, and in any case doesn't make sense with regard to logos - especially if they're logos displayed off of a screenshot from TV or a computer screen, since that has some disturbing similarities to piracy. (end mindless, confusing, ignorant, pointless, and probably thread-killing rant that has bored everyone to sleep at this point) -- Morgan Wick 03:40, 27 June 2006 (UTC)
Can logos be uploaded under fairuse, in SVG? I say this because User:9cds has recently speedy deleted several images I uploaded (I extracted it from a PDF) and told me you can't. BUT there are many popular article (e.g. Microsoft) which have logos which are in SVG. Can or can't they be SVG? - Рэд хот 20:31, 26 June 2006 (UTC)
Defaced logos or logo parodies should be used with care and not given undue prominence. Parodies of logos can be used under fair use in an article about a parody site or campaign against some aspect of the operations of the company, but in an article about the company itself, a parody is less likely to be as important and less likely to be fair use.