This is the discussion page for the moderator panel. Please do not edit it unless you are a moderator. |
OK, so let's see what everyone's expectations for our role are. Edokter, you wrote that you envisioned the panel to be "a panel of mediators where arguments are exchanged in a structured discussion". The more I think about it, the more I realize that this may be the same as what I had in mind.
My expectation was that moderators are basically just like other project members, with the exception that they can do some administrative actions, such as deleting a post from the talk page, or some other typical admin action. An important role I see is also that we can separate the chaff from the wheat, if the project decides do go with my proposal WT:IECOLL#Consensus of Collaboration Project members. (What I mean is that we help the members move up on Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement. (Such as by asking them to remove "idontlikeit" arguments.) This may also be very helpful in light of DDStretch's description of the Mk II table process at WT:IECOLL#Options for decisionmaking, which is the first thing I would like to try. If we need to compile a more involved list, like the one I did at WP:SLR/LTTE digest then we can supervise that this is being done fairly.
Is this similar to what you had in mind? Maybe you were just put off by my collaboration project housekeeping. To be honest, that may not be necessary, but it is a ground on which I feel comfortable, and I do believe that it helps build a community that will be able to solve similar issues by themselves in the future. This is why I asked people to come here in the first place. I ask you to indulge me with this, and I assure you that from now on I will wait 24 hours after I made a proposal before I (or anyone else) carry it out. — Sebastian 07:42, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, those were my original thought. I just think we are getting slightly ahead of ourselves, discussing details wihtout defining our goal first.
Having had some time to let things sink is, I feel it is important to remember that the main goal of this panel is not to decide the final name for Ireland and related articles, but to devise a procedure which the community can use as a tool to determin the outcome for themselves. I for myself will not focus on the arguments on the naming itself, but those arguments do have a vital role in crafting this procedure and defining it's parameters. It is also envisioned that this procedure may see future use in other potential disputes.
Desicion making is an essential part of this process, but there are two aspects we need to consider:
While the two are intimately related, they are not the same. It will be a general procedure, possibly ending up in article naming guidelines, and this case serves as a testbed. The first objective is to define objective parameters we can use in this procedure; in other words: which parameters (ie. laws, sources) decide the outcome of a dispute? Then we need to decide which ones go in. Next is to define a framework that govern the decision making for it's users. And once we agree on this procedure, the solution to the dispute itself should come naturally.
Once we have set the goal, then we can start discussing both items, and that is where moderation comes in as outlined by you. How does that sound? — Edokter • Talk • 16:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
I may have went to far claiming it may end up as a generall procedure. You are right that such a procudere needs involvement of the entire community. Still, some parts may be beneficial to the general community. And parts of the Sri Lanka procedures may be beneficial here. Right now, I'm still in brainstoring mode. I dont even know if ArbCom has given the official "Go" yet, if it will come at all. — Edokter • Talk • 17:27, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes, absolutely. — Edokter • Talk • 17:45, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
"I dont even know if ArbCom has given the official "Go" yet, if it will come at all." I don't know, either. I am also still waiting for the third panel member. Should we nudge them? Or should we just go ahead? The problem is that there's so much discussion going on right now already; If we simply ignore that, it will just be the same old same old - they will bicker more and reconvince themselves that it will always be that way. — Sebastian 17:41, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Can I ask you to do the nudge? I need to leave now, and won't be back before midnight UTC.
As for the fresh start, do you mean the fresh start that we're currently attempting on our project talk page ( WT:IECOLL), or yet another fresh start? I am trying my best to keep the discussion on our project talk page centralized, concise and to the point, but that is mostly an educational task. Some people are deeply dug into their old ways. As good mediators, we need to help them. Can you maybe help those that may have been taken aback by my actions? — Sebastian 19:05, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
ArbCom now announced the two of us. I'm currently sick, so I won't participate much; but please don't let that stop you. Please see it as a chance to take some responsibilities in this, too. I also proposed to take a third moderator from among the members of this project, please comment on WT:IECOLL on this. — Sebastian 20:10, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
In order to break the old pattern of discussions where each viewpoint is repeated in an open debate, another idea is to organize a moderated debate; In this debate, each party presents their arguments for their viewpoint, based on current policy and guidelines, and real-world context. Parties are not allowed to argue with eachother. Other members may endorse or oppose (much like an RfC). This will give a good overview of all perspectives. Once the general outline has christalised, we can explore and expand on those viepoints until we can distill the arguments that carry the most support.
Based on those arguments, we can formulate priciples that can help this project determine the best course of action. In the end, those principles will help the project make the ultimate decision (not unlike the methods used by ArbCom). This will help the project in two ways; it will break the current cycle of discussion, and it may provide a level of arbitration that some members have been seeking from ArbCom in the first place.
This is a brainstorm that needs some work. — Edokter • Talk • 21:51, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Since there have been no objections to notifying to the announcements proposed ad WT:IECOLL#Publicity / notice, I would like to do that soon. Before that, however, I'd like to further clean up our talk page. I'd like us to extract the proposals from the sections WT:IECOLL#Options for decisionmaking through WT:IECOLL#Cascading levels of agreement and put them on the project page, in a section WP:IECOLL#Proposals for methodology, or some name like this. Do you think that's a good idea? Do you think the two of us can do that, or would you prefer to ask our members? — Sebastian 18:41, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
I won't be here in the next 3 days. Just thought I'd let you know so you don't wait for me with any urgent or minor things. — Sebastian 00:38, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Due to recent events, I'm taking an indefinite wikibreak. I am, however, still available by e-mail. — Sebastian 08:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Did you see the question at WT:IECOLL#Hello? I have been asking myself the same question. Three weeks ago, we agreed with you taking the lead in carrying out your plan. Could you please let us know where we are with regard to your plan? — Sebastian 20:06, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
One more request: Gnevin persuaded me at WT:IECOLL#Publicity / notice that we should publicize this soon. Before we do so, I would like to get the page ready for the new editors, which means we need to clean up old discussions, and place the important decisions in a prominent place. Since we agreed at WT:IECOLL#Carrying out Edokter's plan to go with your plan, it has become important that this be visible to everyone. Currently it is only indirectly (via WP:IECOLL##Form_of_discussion and WT:IECOLL/Panel #Methodology) linked from the discussion, and since the linked text is written as a proposal, it needs some work. There already exists a section WP:IECOLL#Proposed procedures and methodologies, which I would want to rename to something like "Agreed procedures and methodologies", unless we see an objection at WT:IECOLL#Agreements. I think you would be in the best position to put the plan there and adjust it to the context of that page. — Sebastian 21:53, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Yesterday, we reached the previously agreed deadline for submissions of March 12. This caused some consternation by people who were not aware of the deadline, and confusion about what would happen after the deadline. Currently, there is nothing about this on our main page. It should be in the section Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration#Procedures and methodologies. What was your plan, Edokter? — Sebastian 16:35, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
This is a rough tally count (support/oppose) of support and opposes, and analysis on the various proposals being made, after I made an analysis of all statements. This includes combined proposals. Now we can make preliminary conclusions and decide on the next step.
Ireland as DAB: 31/10
Ireland as state: 13/28
Ireland as island: 18/13
Ireland (state): 21/15
Ireland (island): 38/7
Republic of Ireland: 41/41
Ireland as island AND state (merge): 4/0
Rockpocket: 11/3
Ireland as DAB.
Waggers: 11/4
Ireland as DAB.
Mooretwin (Problem 1): 5/11
Ireland as island.
DrKiernan: 16/7
Republic of Ireland
Mooretwin: 6/11
Republic of Ireland
BrownHairedGirl (Problem 2.1): 2/3
Republic of Ireland
Rockpocket: 3/2
Ireland (state), if
Ireland is island or DAB.
DrKiernan 2.2: 13/0
Ireland or
Ireland (island) for island.
Mooretwin (Problem 2.2): 4/6
Ireland (island) (Country is ambiguous. Island is not)
Rockpocket: 4/2
Ireland (island), if
Ireland is state or DAB.
RTG: 2/11
Ireland as state
Red King: 9/3
Ireland as general
Ireland (state) as state
Ireland (island) as island
Ireland (republic) as DAB
Redking7: 9/4
1. Move to
Ireland, or
2.
Ireland (state) and
Ireland (island)
Mooretwin: 3/8
1.
Republic of Ireland and
Ireland as island, or
2. Move to
Ireland (state), use "Ireland" or "Republic of Ireland" in text where needed.
Jeanne boleyn: 9/11
Move to
Ireland, like France and Italy.
Blue-Haired Lawyer: 6/10
Republic of Ireland (like "Republic of Macedonia") and
Ireland as island.
Kittybrewster: 0/7
Ireland as state.
Bastun: 6/2
Republic of Ireland is workable, unambiguous, and uses the state's own official description, per legislation.
One Night In Hackney: 4/0
Ireland as both island and state.
BrownHairedGirl: 6/3
"Republic of Ireland" repeatedly used by government.
RashersTierney: 9/10
"Republic of Ireland" is not neutral.
MusicInTheHouse: 13/2
Analysis of name
78.152.253.163: 9/3
History of name and articles.
Domer48: 7/13
Is "Ireland" ambigious?
Domer48 (2): 1/5
"Ireland" is ambiguous.
BritishWatcher: 11/0
"Ireland" is ambiguous.
HighKing: 7/0
"Republic of Ireland" causes devision.
Blue-Haired Lawyer (2):
1: It is important to inform readers that the official name of the Irish state is Ireland. 9/2
2: Readers should be able to tell, without guesswork or prior knowledge, whether or not an article they're reading relates to the island, the state or to Northern Ireland. 9/2
3: It should not be necessary for every article relating to Ireland to address the naming dispute or explain what the article means when it says "Ireland". 10/1
BrownhairedGirl:
1: "Ireland" is the name of an island in Europe which lies in the Atlantic ocean to the north-west of continental Europe. 21/0
2: "Ireland" is the name of an independent state which covers approximately five-sixths of the island called "Ireland". 17/0
3: The English-language name of the state is defined in Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland, which says in full: "The
name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland." 20/0
4: The description of the state is defined in law as "the Republic of Ireland", by Section 2 of the Republic of Ireland Act
1948, which says in full: "It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland." 13/2
5: The phrase "Republic of Ireland" is not the official name of the 26-county state, either in statute law or in the constitution. 16/2
6: The official name of the state is the same as the name of the island. 19/0
7: The following statement was true in 1998: "Lough Neagh is a lake in Ireland." 19/1
8: The following statement was true in 1798: "Lough Neagh is a lake in Ireland." 19/1
9: The following statement has always been false: "Lough Neagh is a lake in Ireland." 0/19
10: An event which happened in Belfast in 1890 could accurately be described as having happened in Ireland. 21/0
11: An event which happened in Belfast in 2008 could accurately be described as having happened in Ireland. 15/5
12: A person born in the Bogside area of Derry in 1950 was born in Ireland. 14/3
13: When Ireland was partitioned under the Government of Ireland Act 1920, Omagh ceased to be a town in Ireland. 5/13
Redking7:
Why is
Ireland being treated differently to
Luxembourg,
Mongolia or
Samoa?
At first sight, we can deduce that the following options have too much opposition: Ireland as state and Ireland as island AND state (basically a merge). Further, the option Republic of Ireland is a tie and cannot be considered as having consensus.
Most support goes to having Ireland as a disambiguation page, and having the state moved to Ireland (state) and island moved to Ireland (island). In addition, there seems to be consensus that if Ireland becomes a disambiguation page, then an Ireland (historical country) article should be created.
As a second option, leaving the island at Ireland may be considered, but has significantly less support then Ireland as a disambiguation page.
Given the approach with the most support appears to be:
the next stage could be to ascertain whether this has consensus. Possibly a second round lasting a week?
This is the discussion page for the moderator panel. Please do not edit it unless you are a moderator. |
OK, so let's see what everyone's expectations for our role are. Edokter, you wrote that you envisioned the panel to be "a panel of mediators where arguments are exchanged in a structured discussion". The more I think about it, the more I realize that this may be the same as what I had in mind.
My expectation was that moderators are basically just like other project members, with the exception that they can do some administrative actions, such as deleting a post from the talk page, or some other typical admin action. An important role I see is also that we can separate the chaff from the wheat, if the project decides do go with my proposal WT:IECOLL#Consensus of Collaboration Project members. (What I mean is that we help the members move up on Graham's Hierarchy of Disagreement. (Such as by asking them to remove "idontlikeit" arguments.) This may also be very helpful in light of DDStretch's description of the Mk II table process at WT:IECOLL#Options for decisionmaking, which is the first thing I would like to try. If we need to compile a more involved list, like the one I did at WP:SLR/LTTE digest then we can supervise that this is being done fairly.
Is this similar to what you had in mind? Maybe you were just put off by my collaboration project housekeeping. To be honest, that may not be necessary, but it is a ground on which I feel comfortable, and I do believe that it helps build a community that will be able to solve similar issues by themselves in the future. This is why I asked people to come here in the first place. I ask you to indulge me with this, and I assure you that from now on I will wait 24 hours after I made a proposal before I (or anyone else) carry it out. — Sebastian 07:42, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, those were my original thought. I just think we are getting slightly ahead of ourselves, discussing details wihtout defining our goal first.
Having had some time to let things sink is, I feel it is important to remember that the main goal of this panel is not to decide the final name for Ireland and related articles, but to devise a procedure which the community can use as a tool to determin the outcome for themselves. I for myself will not focus on the arguments on the naming itself, but those arguments do have a vital role in crafting this procedure and defining it's parameters. It is also envisioned that this procedure may see future use in other potential disputes.
Desicion making is an essential part of this process, but there are two aspects we need to consider:
While the two are intimately related, they are not the same. It will be a general procedure, possibly ending up in article naming guidelines, and this case serves as a testbed. The first objective is to define objective parameters we can use in this procedure; in other words: which parameters (ie. laws, sources) decide the outcome of a dispute? Then we need to decide which ones go in. Next is to define a framework that govern the decision making for it's users. And once we agree on this procedure, the solution to the dispute itself should come naturally.
Once we have set the goal, then we can start discussing both items, and that is where moderation comes in as outlined by you. How does that sound? — Edokter • Talk • 16:22, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
I may have went to far claiming it may end up as a generall procedure. You are right that such a procudere needs involvement of the entire community. Still, some parts may be beneficial to the general community. And parts of the Sri Lanka procedures may be beneficial here. Right now, I'm still in brainstoring mode. I dont even know if ArbCom has given the official "Go" yet, if it will come at all. — Edokter • Talk • 17:27, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Yes, absolutely. — Edokter • Talk • 17:45, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
"I dont even know if ArbCom has given the official "Go" yet, if it will come at all." I don't know, either. I am also still waiting for the third panel member. Should we nudge them? Or should we just go ahead? The problem is that there's so much discussion going on right now already; If we simply ignore that, it will just be the same old same old - they will bicker more and reconvince themselves that it will always be that way. — Sebastian 17:41, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
Can I ask you to do the nudge? I need to leave now, and won't be back before midnight UTC.
As for the fresh start, do you mean the fresh start that we're currently attempting on our project talk page ( WT:IECOLL), or yet another fresh start? I am trying my best to keep the discussion on our project talk page centralized, concise and to the point, but that is mostly an educational task. Some people are deeply dug into their old ways. As good mediators, we need to help them. Can you maybe help those that may have been taken aback by my actions? — Sebastian 19:05, 28 January 2009 (UTC)
ArbCom now announced the two of us. I'm currently sick, so I won't participate much; but please don't let that stop you. Please see it as a chance to take some responsibilities in this, too. I also proposed to take a third moderator from among the members of this project, please comment on WT:IECOLL on this. — Sebastian 20:10, 30 January 2009 (UTC)
In order to break the old pattern of discussions where each viewpoint is repeated in an open debate, another idea is to organize a moderated debate; In this debate, each party presents their arguments for their viewpoint, based on current policy and guidelines, and real-world context. Parties are not allowed to argue with eachother. Other members may endorse or oppose (much like an RfC). This will give a good overview of all perspectives. Once the general outline has christalised, we can explore and expand on those viepoints until we can distill the arguments that carry the most support.
Based on those arguments, we can formulate priciples that can help this project determine the best course of action. In the end, those principles will help the project make the ultimate decision (not unlike the methods used by ArbCom). This will help the project in two ways; it will break the current cycle of discussion, and it may provide a level of arbitration that some members have been seeking from ArbCom in the first place.
This is a brainstorm that needs some work. — Edokter • Talk • 21:51, 31 January 2009 (UTC)
Since there have been no objections to notifying to the announcements proposed ad WT:IECOLL#Publicity / notice, I would like to do that soon. Before that, however, I'd like to further clean up our talk page. I'd like us to extract the proposals from the sections WT:IECOLL#Options for decisionmaking through WT:IECOLL#Cascading levels of agreement and put them on the project page, in a section WP:IECOLL#Proposals for methodology, or some name like this. Do you think that's a good idea? Do you think the two of us can do that, or would you prefer to ask our members? — Sebastian 18:41, 3 February 2009 (UTC)
I won't be here in the next 3 days. Just thought I'd let you know so you don't wait for me with any urgent or minor things. — Sebastian 00:38, 19 February 2009 (UTC)
Due to recent events, I'm taking an indefinite wikibreak. I am, however, still available by e-mail. — Sebastian 08:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
Did you see the question at WT:IECOLL#Hello? I have been asking myself the same question. Three weeks ago, we agreed with you taking the lead in carrying out your plan. Could you please let us know where we are with regard to your plan? — Sebastian 20:06, 1 March 2009 (UTC)
One more request: Gnevin persuaded me at WT:IECOLL#Publicity / notice that we should publicize this soon. Before we do so, I would like to get the page ready for the new editors, which means we need to clean up old discussions, and place the important decisions in a prominent place. Since we agreed at WT:IECOLL#Carrying out Edokter's plan to go with your plan, it has become important that this be visible to everyone. Currently it is only indirectly (via WP:IECOLL##Form_of_discussion and WT:IECOLL/Panel #Methodology) linked from the discussion, and since the linked text is written as a proposal, it needs some work. There already exists a section WP:IECOLL#Proposed procedures and methodologies, which I would want to rename to something like "Agreed procedures and methodologies", unless we see an objection at WT:IECOLL#Agreements. I think you would be in the best position to put the plan there and adjust it to the context of that page. — Sebastian 21:53, 2 March 2009 (UTC)
Yesterday, we reached the previously agreed deadline for submissions of March 12. This caused some consternation by people who were not aware of the deadline, and confusion about what would happen after the deadline. Currently, there is nothing about this on our main page. It should be in the section Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland Collaboration#Procedures and methodologies. What was your plan, Edokter? — Sebastian 16:35, 13 March 2009 (UTC)
This is a rough tally count (support/oppose) of support and opposes, and analysis on the various proposals being made, after I made an analysis of all statements. This includes combined proposals. Now we can make preliminary conclusions and decide on the next step.
Ireland as DAB: 31/10
Ireland as state: 13/28
Ireland as island: 18/13
Ireland (state): 21/15
Ireland (island): 38/7
Republic of Ireland: 41/41
Ireland as island AND state (merge): 4/0
Rockpocket: 11/3
Ireland as DAB.
Waggers: 11/4
Ireland as DAB.
Mooretwin (Problem 1): 5/11
Ireland as island.
DrKiernan: 16/7
Republic of Ireland
Mooretwin: 6/11
Republic of Ireland
BrownHairedGirl (Problem 2.1): 2/3
Republic of Ireland
Rockpocket: 3/2
Ireland (state), if
Ireland is island or DAB.
DrKiernan 2.2: 13/0
Ireland or
Ireland (island) for island.
Mooretwin (Problem 2.2): 4/6
Ireland (island) (Country is ambiguous. Island is not)
Rockpocket: 4/2
Ireland (island), if
Ireland is state or DAB.
RTG: 2/11
Ireland as state
Red King: 9/3
Ireland as general
Ireland (state) as state
Ireland (island) as island
Ireland (republic) as DAB
Redking7: 9/4
1. Move to
Ireland, or
2.
Ireland (state) and
Ireland (island)
Mooretwin: 3/8
1.
Republic of Ireland and
Ireland as island, or
2. Move to
Ireland (state), use "Ireland" or "Republic of Ireland" in text where needed.
Jeanne boleyn: 9/11
Move to
Ireland, like France and Italy.
Blue-Haired Lawyer: 6/10
Republic of Ireland (like "Republic of Macedonia") and
Ireland as island.
Kittybrewster: 0/7
Ireland as state.
Bastun: 6/2
Republic of Ireland is workable, unambiguous, and uses the state's own official description, per legislation.
One Night In Hackney: 4/0
Ireland as both island and state.
BrownHairedGirl: 6/3
"Republic of Ireland" repeatedly used by government.
RashersTierney: 9/10
"Republic of Ireland" is not neutral.
MusicInTheHouse: 13/2
Analysis of name
78.152.253.163: 9/3
History of name and articles.
Domer48: 7/13
Is "Ireland" ambigious?
Domer48 (2): 1/5
"Ireland" is ambiguous.
BritishWatcher: 11/0
"Ireland" is ambiguous.
HighKing: 7/0
"Republic of Ireland" causes devision.
Blue-Haired Lawyer (2):
1: It is important to inform readers that the official name of the Irish state is Ireland. 9/2
2: Readers should be able to tell, without guesswork or prior knowledge, whether or not an article they're reading relates to the island, the state or to Northern Ireland. 9/2
3: It should not be necessary for every article relating to Ireland to address the naming dispute or explain what the article means when it says "Ireland". 10/1
BrownhairedGirl:
1: "Ireland" is the name of an island in Europe which lies in the Atlantic ocean to the north-west of continental Europe. 21/0
2: "Ireland" is the name of an independent state which covers approximately five-sixths of the island called "Ireland". 17/0
3: The English-language name of the state is defined in Article 4 of the Constitution of Ireland, which says in full: "The
name of the State is Éire, or, in the English language, Ireland." 20/0
4: The description of the state is defined in law as "the Republic of Ireland", by Section 2 of the Republic of Ireland Act
1948, which says in full: "It is hereby declared that the description of the State shall be the Republic of Ireland." 13/2
5: The phrase "Republic of Ireland" is not the official name of the 26-county state, either in statute law or in the constitution. 16/2
6: The official name of the state is the same as the name of the island. 19/0
7: The following statement was true in 1998: "Lough Neagh is a lake in Ireland." 19/1
8: The following statement was true in 1798: "Lough Neagh is a lake in Ireland." 19/1
9: The following statement has always been false: "Lough Neagh is a lake in Ireland." 0/19
10: An event which happened in Belfast in 1890 could accurately be described as having happened in Ireland. 21/0
11: An event which happened in Belfast in 2008 could accurately be described as having happened in Ireland. 15/5
12: A person born in the Bogside area of Derry in 1950 was born in Ireland. 14/3
13: When Ireland was partitioned under the Government of Ireland Act 1920, Omagh ceased to be a town in Ireland. 5/13
Redking7:
Why is
Ireland being treated differently to
Luxembourg,
Mongolia or
Samoa?
At first sight, we can deduce that the following options have too much opposition: Ireland as state and Ireland as island AND state (basically a merge). Further, the option Republic of Ireland is a tie and cannot be considered as having consensus.
Most support goes to having Ireland as a disambiguation page, and having the state moved to Ireland (state) and island moved to Ireland (island). In addition, there seems to be consensus that if Ireland becomes a disambiguation page, then an Ireland (historical country) article should be created.
As a second option, leaving the island at Ireland may be considered, but has significantly less support then Ireland as a disambiguation page.
Given the approach with the most support appears to be:
the next stage could be to ascertain whether this has consensus. Possibly a second round lasting a week?