This page is for discussion of the proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland/CatNavProposal
This discussion has now been open for 7 days, so I think it is now time to weigh consensus and move on. I suggest that this discussion has reached the following WP:Consensus:
However, we have had no response from Northern Ireland editors. The note which I posted [3] at WT:NIR has produced zero response either here or at WT:NIR. Also no response to my post at WT:IECOLL.
I see no reason to expect that waiting any longer will produce a response. So I propose to implement the consensus on a trial basis of five sets of categories, with each page displaying for 2 weeks a note below the navbox which explains that this is a trial, and links to the template's talk page for any feedback. The template will be set to stop displaying the note after 2 weeks. (By "sets of categories" I mean that e.g. the 35 cat pages in Category:Counties of Northern Ireland+ Category:Counties of the Republic of Ireland is one set; the 35 cat pages in Category:People by county in Northern Ireland+ Category:People by county in the Republic of Ireland is another set)
@ Fayenatic london, Scolaire, Bastun, Spleodrach, Ww2censor, SeoR, and Sarah777::
-- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 17:35, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for the ping. I have been on site even if making few edits but have not noticed this discussion until I got the recent pings. I'll need a day to have a look over the discussion as I have no time tonight. Mabuska (talk) 21:26, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
Many thanks to those who have responded. All but the editors who posted in the discussion above have responded, except @ Spleodrach. That is 7 out of 8, all of whom have supported my proposal of proceeding to a trial implementation, which I think is a consensus to do so.
The late but v welcome arrival of @ Mabuska (thanks to Scolaire) slightly complicates things, because I don't want to pre-empt Mabuska's substantive assessment. However, I think that it would still be helpful for Mabuska to see a "live" version of what the rest of us have agreed for the trial.
So I will go ahead with the trial as proposed, without prejudice to withdrawing or changing it as a result of further discussion. The good news is that the discussion above agreed on something very close to what I had originally suggested, so the coding has been easy, and I can proceed now. Details below at #Trial implementation. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 23:30, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
As I have only come across this it would be silly for my response to it to be in the summing up sub-section. From what I have seen so far I:
Overall I don't see anything agreed to that I object too. Though I will reserve the right to raise something I may have missed after implementation. So on that basis it is a yes and yes' from me.
I also wonder can we create similar navboxes for specifics, for example look at [4] and [5]. As we can see the first link has the nice lovely new navbox for the counties, but look at the way the constituencies are listed... simply terrible. As we are trying to improve Wikipedia and make readers lives easier, it would be great to have the constituencies listed in a similar way to the counties when you click on one of them. Whilst it would be possible to make the code of this navbox much more complicated and do what I'm suggesting, a separate one would be better and simpler. Mabuska (talk) 16:30, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
@
Ww2censor asked above When would you expect to implement this?
In their initial comments above, both @ Bastun and @ Laurel Lodged recommended including London GAA and New York GAA in the set of GAA counties. This would be easily done, and in principle it seems like a why-on-earth-not issue.
However, London and New York are not the only GAA counties outside Ireland. Gaelic Athletic Association county#Gaelic Athletic Association 'counties' overseas lists several other counties, tho it's unclear whether that list is complete.
That para is sourced to http://www.gaa.ie/about-the-gaa/gaa-overseas/ , which no longer exists on the GAA website. The current page http://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/provinces-counties-clubs/ doesn't even mention overseas GAA: it's just the 32 counties.
Nor does http://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/administration/ mention overseas. I eventually found http://www.gaa.ie/my-gaa/world-gaa/, but it doesn't directly list counties. The subpage http://www.gaa.ie/my-gaa/world-gaa/our-clubs/britain/ does list the 7 British GAA counties (Scotland, Yorkshire, Lancashire, Warwickshire, Hertfordshire, Gloucestershire and London). However, the other subpages are less clear
However, the archived version of http://www.gaa.ie/about-the-gaa/gaa-overseas/ (see here) links to an archived copy of the 2014 GAA Overseas Booklet, which does list all the overseas GAA counties. But it's 4 years old, and doesn't seem to be mentioned on the current GAA website
So I am unsure what to do here. I see several possibilities, including:
I will ask for input from WT:GAA. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 17:34, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
1 What overseas GAA bodies are counties?
2 Do they have an eponymous category?
3 Does that have eponymous category have a set of subcategories organised as per the subcats of an Irish
I seem to have opened a minor can of worms - apologies. I'm not really a follower of GAA so to be honest I'm not familiar at all with their setup outside the hurling and football league and championship, and I'm aware of London and New York playing in those. I don't know that the other overseas "counties" would warrant inclusion in a template designed specifically for Irish counties, but if it's possible to kill two birds with one stone then why not go for it. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:22, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
Leave it out Rodney is my advice. Stay focused on the main task. Work on counties not pseudo counties. The organisational structures of a private association are as irrelevant to sub-national structures as they are potty. Laurel Lodged ( talk) 08:06, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
We seem to have a broad agreement to include London & New York, except for @ Laurel Lodged's objection that we are straying too far.
It seems to me that the way to resolve this is to split the GAA from the rest, and make it wholly separate. Yes, the GAA counties are based on the local gov counties, but:
A wholly separate module and template simplifies the code, and allows the template to reflect the GAA structures and terminology. It also addresses LL's objection by keeping it all clear of local gov counties. I hope that will make everybody happy.
So as a test, I have made GAA-only code in Module:Sandbox/BrownHairedGirl/GAAByCountyCatNav01, and a wrapper template: {{ User:BrownHairedGirl/GAACatNavBeta}}
I tested on 8 categories, and then self-reverted, so these are links to old version of the pages.
@ Bastun, Laurel Lodged, Scolaire, and Gnevin:: what do you think of this? -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 16:41, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
It seems that there are 3 options in play here:
My own principle is to remember all times that these are signposts. They are not explanations, and not declarations of status. As such there should be the bare minimum of words which allows the reader to identify the path they want to follow.
A road sign does not say "Kilkenny, former city", or "Kilkenny, former parliamentary borough", or "Kilkenny, medieval town with many old buildings". It just says "Kilkenny". Less is more.
So if we don't actually need to separate out the Overseas counties, I'd say don't do it, 'cos it means we can use many fewer words. But I can easily code for any of those options (or others), and just need to know where the consensus is.
Can we try to wrap this up? It'd be great to have a consensus, so that we can move on to implementing this GAA navbox. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 16:41, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
Firstly I want to say great work BHG, I know this must of taken ages to develop! I'm wondering does anyone else feel the grayed out links are sometimes misleading. For example Offaly is unlikely to ever need an Islands of Offaly category Gnevin ( talk) 09:15, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
@ Gnevin and Ww2censor: There is basically a design choice between:
The convention for such category navboxes is #1: list the complete set. This can be seen e.g. in hundreds of thousands of categories by year, by decade, and by century, e.g. Category:1885 in Afghanistan. I think it's much clearer than having no entry for the non-existent categories. so I adopted it as Design principle No. 2
The non-existent categories used to be redlinked in the year/decade/century category navboxes, but in discussion with @ Fayenatic london, we reckoned that was a breach of WP:REDNOT, which says "Do not create red links to articles that are not likely to be created and retained in Wikipedia".
So I created {{ LinkCatIfExists2}}, which greys out non-existent categories in those navboxes. It is now used on over 200,000 pages, and as far as I know there haven't been any expressions of concern.
It would be easy to add a note at the bottom of the navbox saying something like "Note: an entry in grey indicates that no such category exists for that county".
However, I dislike that idea:
If there is a consensus to add a note about the greying out, then of course I will implement it. But as above, I think it's not needed and on balance would do more harm than good. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 16:34, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
I know zilch about coding, so could I ask you how the greying works? If Category:Museums in County Carlow were to be created, would Carlow automatically turn blue in the template, or would we have to send a request for the template to be modified? Scolaire ( talk) 11:38, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
ListOfAllCounties = 'Carlow', 'Cavan', 'Clare', 'Cork', etc PageName = getTheNameOfThePageTheTemplateIsUsedOn check PageName against each CountyName in ListOfAllCounties if PageName does not include a CountyName then quit split PageName into Prefix, county and Suffix // e.g. "County Mayo-related lists": Prefix="", Suffix="-related lists" // or "Education in County Galway": Prefix="Education in ", Suffix="" for each ListedCounty in ListOfAllCounties do // this indented block is repeated for each value of ListedCounty thisCategory = Prefix + ListedCounty + Suffix // e.g. "Education in" + "County Louth" + "" --> "Education in County Louth" if thisCategory exists then make a link to thisCategory else display greyed thisCategory endif done
As discussed above at #Summing up the initial discussion, there is a consensus to proceed to a trial implementation of this navbox: {{ AllIrelandByCountyCatNav}}.
(For anyone new to this discussion, {{ AllIrelandByCountyCatNav}} can be applied without any parameters to almost any by-county category in the 32 counties of the island of Ireland. It creates links to similarly-named categories in every other county, greying out the names of counties for which no such category exists. Full details of how and why are at WP:IECATNAVP and the discussions above).
For this test, {{ AllIrelandByCountyCatNav}} has been deployed to 150 pages in the following five sets of categories:
The template includes a brief notice that this is a trial, with a link to this section for feedback: WT:IECATNAVP#Trial. The trial notice will automatically expire in 15 days (i.e. on 8 May 2018), unless there is consensus to do otherwise.
Known bug: the navbox is supposed to allow other boxes (e.g. portals, commons links) to float to the right. However, the trial notice has partially broken this, so that on pages using {{ GeoGroup}}, the GeoGroup box is pushed downwards (see e.g. here). This issue will be resolved when the trial is finished. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 00:48, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
The trial period has ended without any objections so I will now proceed to deploy {{ AllIrelandByCountyCatNav}} on the hundreds of other by-county categories. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 04:12, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
@ BrownHairedGirl: would it be straightforward for you to amend {{ PrePartitionIrelandByCountyCatNav}} if Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_May_16#Category:Members_of_the_Parliament_of_Ireland_(pre-1801)_for_County_Laois_constituencies is approved? – Fayenatic London 15:42, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
@ BrownHairedGirl: There seem to be only four sets of categories currently using that PrePartition template, and all four sets have had the County Laois and County Offaly categories renamed to Queen's County and King's County respectively. These four pairs were giving errors, populating Category:PrePartitionIrelandByCountyCatNav on invalid category.
I had a go at amending the module for the list of 32 counties, and seem to have got it working, thanks to your parameter useCountyWord. The word County is now displayed in the nav box, making the list verbose, but I don't see an easy way around that as it now occurs as the first or second word in the county name.
Please check it over when you are back. – Fayenatic London 22:49, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
This page is for discussion of the proposal at Wikipedia:WikiProject Ireland/CatNavProposal
This discussion has now been open for 7 days, so I think it is now time to weigh consensus and move on. I suggest that this discussion has reached the following WP:Consensus:
However, we have had no response from Northern Ireland editors. The note which I posted [3] at WT:NIR has produced zero response either here or at WT:NIR. Also no response to my post at WT:IECOLL.
I see no reason to expect that waiting any longer will produce a response. So I propose to implement the consensus on a trial basis of five sets of categories, with each page displaying for 2 weeks a note below the navbox which explains that this is a trial, and links to the template's talk page for any feedback. The template will be set to stop displaying the note after 2 weeks. (By "sets of categories" I mean that e.g. the 35 cat pages in Category:Counties of Northern Ireland+ Category:Counties of the Republic of Ireland is one set; the 35 cat pages in Category:People by county in Northern Ireland+ Category:People by county in the Republic of Ireland is another set)
@ Fayenatic london, Scolaire, Bastun, Spleodrach, Ww2censor, SeoR, and Sarah777::
-- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 17:35, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you for the ping. I have been on site even if making few edits but have not noticed this discussion until I got the recent pings. I'll need a day to have a look over the discussion as I have no time tonight. Mabuska (talk) 21:26, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
Many thanks to those who have responded. All but the editors who posted in the discussion above have responded, except @ Spleodrach. That is 7 out of 8, all of whom have supported my proposal of proceeding to a trial implementation, which I think is a consensus to do so.
The late but v welcome arrival of @ Mabuska (thanks to Scolaire) slightly complicates things, because I don't want to pre-empt Mabuska's substantive assessment. However, I think that it would still be helpful for Mabuska to see a "live" version of what the rest of us have agreed for the trial.
So I will go ahead with the trial as proposed, without prejudice to withdrawing or changing it as a result of further discussion. The good news is that the discussion above agreed on something very close to what I had originally suggested, so the coding has been easy, and I can proceed now. Details below at #Trial implementation. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 23:30, 22 April 2018 (UTC)
As I have only come across this it would be silly for my response to it to be in the summing up sub-section. From what I have seen so far I:
Overall I don't see anything agreed to that I object too. Though I will reserve the right to raise something I may have missed after implementation. So on that basis it is a yes and yes' from me.
I also wonder can we create similar navboxes for specifics, for example look at [4] and [5]. As we can see the first link has the nice lovely new navbox for the counties, but look at the way the constituencies are listed... simply terrible. As we are trying to improve Wikipedia and make readers lives easier, it would be great to have the constituencies listed in a similar way to the counties when you click on one of them. Whilst it would be possible to make the code of this navbox much more complicated and do what I'm suggesting, a separate one would be better and simpler. Mabuska (talk) 16:30, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
@
Ww2censor asked above When would you expect to implement this?
In their initial comments above, both @ Bastun and @ Laurel Lodged recommended including London GAA and New York GAA in the set of GAA counties. This would be easily done, and in principle it seems like a why-on-earth-not issue.
However, London and New York are not the only GAA counties outside Ireland. Gaelic Athletic Association county#Gaelic Athletic Association 'counties' overseas lists several other counties, tho it's unclear whether that list is complete.
That para is sourced to http://www.gaa.ie/about-the-gaa/gaa-overseas/ , which no longer exists on the GAA website. The current page http://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/provinces-counties-clubs/ doesn't even mention overseas GAA: it's just the 32 counties.
Nor does http://www.gaa.ie/the-gaa/administration/ mention overseas. I eventually found http://www.gaa.ie/my-gaa/world-gaa/, but it doesn't directly list counties. The subpage http://www.gaa.ie/my-gaa/world-gaa/our-clubs/britain/ does list the 7 British GAA counties (Scotland, Yorkshire, Lancashire, Warwickshire, Hertfordshire, Gloucestershire and London). However, the other subpages are less clear
However, the archived version of http://www.gaa.ie/about-the-gaa/gaa-overseas/ (see here) links to an archived copy of the 2014 GAA Overseas Booklet, which does list all the overseas GAA counties. But it's 4 years old, and doesn't seem to be mentioned on the current GAA website
So I am unsure what to do here. I see several possibilities, including:
I will ask for input from WT:GAA. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 17:34, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
1 What overseas GAA bodies are counties?
2 Do they have an eponymous category?
3 Does that have eponymous category have a set of subcategories organised as per the subcats of an Irish
I seem to have opened a minor can of worms - apologies. I'm not really a follower of GAA so to be honest I'm not familiar at all with their setup outside the hurling and football league and championship, and I'm aware of London and New York playing in those. I don't know that the other overseas "counties" would warrant inclusion in a template designed specifically for Irish counties, but if it's possible to kill two birds with one stone then why not go for it. Bastun Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:22, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
Leave it out Rodney is my advice. Stay focused on the main task. Work on counties not pseudo counties. The organisational structures of a private association are as irrelevant to sub-national structures as they are potty. Laurel Lodged ( talk) 08:06, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
We seem to have a broad agreement to include London & New York, except for @ Laurel Lodged's objection that we are straying too far.
It seems to me that the way to resolve this is to split the GAA from the rest, and make it wholly separate. Yes, the GAA counties are based on the local gov counties, but:
A wholly separate module and template simplifies the code, and allows the template to reflect the GAA structures and terminology. It also addresses LL's objection by keeping it all clear of local gov counties. I hope that will make everybody happy.
So as a test, I have made GAA-only code in Module:Sandbox/BrownHairedGirl/GAAByCountyCatNav01, and a wrapper template: {{ User:BrownHairedGirl/GAACatNavBeta}}
I tested on 8 categories, and then self-reverted, so these are links to old version of the pages.
@ Bastun, Laurel Lodged, Scolaire, and Gnevin:: what do you think of this? -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 16:41, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
It seems that there are 3 options in play here:
My own principle is to remember all times that these are signposts. They are not explanations, and not declarations of status. As such there should be the bare minimum of words which allows the reader to identify the path they want to follow.
A road sign does not say "Kilkenny, former city", or "Kilkenny, former parliamentary borough", or "Kilkenny, medieval town with many old buildings". It just says "Kilkenny". Less is more.
So if we don't actually need to separate out the Overseas counties, I'd say don't do it, 'cos it means we can use many fewer words. But I can easily code for any of those options (or others), and just need to know where the consensus is.
Can we try to wrap this up? It'd be great to have a consensus, so that we can move on to implementing this GAA navbox. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 16:41, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
Firstly I want to say great work BHG, I know this must of taken ages to develop! I'm wondering does anyone else feel the grayed out links are sometimes misleading. For example Offaly is unlikely to ever need an Islands of Offaly category Gnevin ( talk) 09:15, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
@ Gnevin and Ww2censor: There is basically a design choice between:
The convention for such category navboxes is #1: list the complete set. This can be seen e.g. in hundreds of thousands of categories by year, by decade, and by century, e.g. Category:1885 in Afghanistan. I think it's much clearer than having no entry for the non-existent categories. so I adopted it as Design principle No. 2
The non-existent categories used to be redlinked in the year/decade/century category navboxes, but in discussion with @ Fayenatic london, we reckoned that was a breach of WP:REDNOT, which says "Do not create red links to articles that are not likely to be created and retained in Wikipedia".
So I created {{ LinkCatIfExists2}}, which greys out non-existent categories in those navboxes. It is now used on over 200,000 pages, and as far as I know there haven't been any expressions of concern.
It would be easy to add a note at the bottom of the navbox saying something like "Note: an entry in grey indicates that no such category exists for that county".
However, I dislike that idea:
If there is a consensus to add a note about the greying out, then of course I will implement it. But as above, I think it's not needed and on balance would do more harm than good. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 16:34, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
I know zilch about coding, so could I ask you how the greying works? If Category:Museums in County Carlow were to be created, would Carlow automatically turn blue in the template, or would we have to send a request for the template to be modified? Scolaire ( talk) 11:38, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
ListOfAllCounties = 'Carlow', 'Cavan', 'Clare', 'Cork', etc PageName = getTheNameOfThePageTheTemplateIsUsedOn check PageName against each CountyName in ListOfAllCounties if PageName does not include a CountyName then quit split PageName into Prefix, county and Suffix // e.g. "County Mayo-related lists": Prefix="", Suffix="-related lists" // or "Education in County Galway": Prefix="Education in ", Suffix="" for each ListedCounty in ListOfAllCounties do // this indented block is repeated for each value of ListedCounty thisCategory = Prefix + ListedCounty + Suffix // e.g. "Education in" + "County Louth" + "" --> "Education in County Louth" if thisCategory exists then make a link to thisCategory else display greyed thisCategory endif done
As discussed above at #Summing up the initial discussion, there is a consensus to proceed to a trial implementation of this navbox: {{ AllIrelandByCountyCatNav}}.
(For anyone new to this discussion, {{ AllIrelandByCountyCatNav}} can be applied without any parameters to almost any by-county category in the 32 counties of the island of Ireland. It creates links to similarly-named categories in every other county, greying out the names of counties for which no such category exists. Full details of how and why are at WP:IECATNAVP and the discussions above).
For this test, {{ AllIrelandByCountyCatNav}} has been deployed to 150 pages in the following five sets of categories:
The template includes a brief notice that this is a trial, with a link to this section for feedback: WT:IECATNAVP#Trial. The trial notice will automatically expire in 15 days (i.e. on 8 May 2018), unless there is consensus to do otherwise.
Known bug: the navbox is supposed to allow other boxes (e.g. portals, commons links) to float to the right. However, the trial notice has partially broken this, so that on pages using {{ GeoGroup}}, the GeoGroup box is pushed downwards (see e.g. here). This issue will be resolved when the trial is finished. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 00:48, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
The trial period has ended without any objections so I will now proceed to deploy {{ AllIrelandByCountyCatNav}} on the hundreds of other by-county categories. -- BrownHairedGirl (talk) • ( contribs) 04:12, 8 May 2018 (UTC)
@ BrownHairedGirl: would it be straightforward for you to amend {{ PrePartitionIrelandByCountyCatNav}} if Wikipedia:Categories_for_discussion/Log/2018_May_16#Category:Members_of_the_Parliament_of_Ireland_(pre-1801)_for_County_Laois_constituencies is approved? – Fayenatic London 15:42, 31 May 2018 (UTC)
@ BrownHairedGirl: There seem to be only four sets of categories currently using that PrePartition template, and all four sets have had the County Laois and County Offaly categories renamed to Queen's County and King's County respectively. These four pairs were giving errors, populating Category:PrePartitionIrelandByCountyCatNav on invalid category.
I had a go at amending the module for the list of 32 counties, and seem to have got it working, thanks to your parameter useCountyWord. The word County is now displayed in the nav box, making the list verbose, but I don't see an easy way around that as it now occurs as the first or second word in the county name.
Please check it over when you are back. – Fayenatic London 22:49, 10 July 2018 (UTC)