![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
This discussion is pretty much replaced by the discussion page at Wikipedia:Importance, which was created 10 days before this was. In a previous incarnation, Wikipedia:Importance was structured like this discussion (for/against), but I've since realized that this actually creates a separation of viewpoints rather than consensus (see Wikipedia:How to create policy). How would you feel about merging this to Wikipedia:Importance? ··gracefool | ☺ 23:57, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to see this discussion run as smoothly as possible, hence the 3 day waiting period. If I'm alone in this (i.e., everyone else wants to open the discussion as it is), then go ahead and remove the notice and start discussing.
Please note, though, that the real reason I decided to wait on updating this page is the discussion on Wikipedia talk:Votes for deletion#Proposal - suspension of VfD. I'd like to wait for some consensus to be reached there — or at least for the flurry of messages to quiet down a little. I'd rather not see this page catch fire. This is an issue that needs to be discussed, but let's do this right, please. • Benc • 03:59, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Someone changed the redirect of this page to "department of fun". Well, something that is "importance" one day (the previous redirect) and "department of fun" the next, maybe needs a definition in his own right, not redirecting to either of these totally opposite pages.
The deeper motivation of re-opening this page as a separate page is this paragraph from the NPOV tutorial:
Different views don't all deserve equal space. Articles need to be interesting to attract and keep the attention of readers. For an entry in an encyclopedia, ideas also need to be important. The amount of space they deserve depends on their importance and how many interesting things can be said about them.
Presently both hyperlinked words in that paragraph ("interesting" defined as being different form "important") redirect to wikipedia:importance, that proposed guideline not giving a clue about what is exactly the difference between "important" and "interesting". That guideline proposal has other problems, I don't need to elaborate here, but even if these problems are all solved, I don't see how it would clarify "interesting" as an inclusion criterion.
So, I propose wikipedia:interesting to redirect to wikipedia:Trivia, giving some insight on where wikipedia draws the line between "interesting" and "not interesting" - but as a separate definition of the difference between "important" and "not important", while otherwise that quite essential paragraph in wikipedia's NPOV concept would become sort of void of real meaning.
-- Francis Schonken 10:48, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
There's an unfortunately widespread tendency among editors to create, at the end of the article, a section entitled "Trivia" or "Miscellaneous facts" or somesuch, where they place a bulleted list of a few facts that they couldn't fit into the article anywhere else. There are two big problems with this:
It's relatively easy to nip this in the bud, when the list contains only a few items. When it has metastasized, as in the Amiga example above, fixing it becomes a herculean task: for every fact on the list, one has to check that it's accurate, check that it's not duplicating anything else, and find an appropriate place for it. This is not easy. If it isn't fixed, however, it not only makes the article look bad and read poorly, but actively contributes to its degradation, as editors add to the list rather than the structured prose above it.
So:
I am inclined to think that removing such lists to the talk page, or a subpage thereof, is the best solution. The information is not lost or buried in the history; editors can, at their leisure, integrate the facts into the article properly; and the section is no longer actively causing damage. Would there be support for a Wikipedia:Trivia section guideline along these lines? — Charles P. (Mirv) 20:22, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
I would disagree. I think it helps keep a concise record of information regarding a given subject, especially in the case of media. In cases of something that spands several series, integration of such information would require more expansion in an already limited area (which tends to cause another article being created to accomodate the size). It is easier to go directly to a certain factoid rather than having to process the entire subject. However it depends on how well the information would be integrated into its respective topic as well. Ereinion 21:35, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
* On October 14, 1978 President Carter signed into law a bill that legalized the homebrewing of beer and wine.
There's trivia and trivia. While this is supposed to be a commonsense thing, some editors (usually anons) seem to have difficulty with this. I've had this on Golem and Metatron, two articles where the trivia section at some point was longer than the remainder of the article. Pop culture references are two-a-penny. In seventy years few people will remember The Simpsons. JFW | T@lk 03:03, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
I recently revived wikipedia:trivia: that had been a separate (proposed?) guideline a long time ago, then it became for several months a redirect to wikipedia:importance (but that guideline is "proposed" for ages without coming to a conclusion). Then someone changed trivia to redirect to BJAODN. Then I revived it as a separate guideline proposal a few weeks ago, and this morning it got sorted in category:wikipedia notability criteria, a wikipedia guidelines subcategory.
Guidance on "trivia lists"/"trivia sections" can be found in wikipedia:trivia#Trivia policy. I don't know whether I did a good job of describing the present policy regarding trivia in that section (I can only say that during the week the revived trivia guideline proposal was on wikipedia:current surveys nobody commented on that section). So please have a check whether that section answers the present questions, and improve and/or suggest improvements on its talk page. -- Francis Schonken 08:51, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
This proposal seems to go against the policy that Wikipedia should be as inclusive of information as possible. With no definition of importance or how interesting something is no decision can be made, and if someone adds something that they think is interesting then chances are that others will find it interesting too. violet/riga (t) 15:26, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments,
-- Francis Schonken 08:07, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
The absence of discussion does not equate to the absence of opposing views. The fact that there was little support for the proposal is more important than the fact that nobody bothered to say anything against it. violet/riga (t) 15:26, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
In fact, the general consensus seems to be that this does not deserve its own page and is thus not accepted as a guideline. violet/riga (t) 15:27, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
- The Literate Engineer 03:04, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Please, Literate Engineer, what are your practical suggestions w.r.t. the guideline text? -- Francis Schonken 09:12, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
I must echo my own previous comments and those of by others above that this has not gained acceptance and should not be labelled as anything more than a proposal. violet/riga (t) 02:16, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
As it happens, several "perennial proposed" guidelines touching on "Notability" are in the Category:wikipedia notability criteria:
Included in that category without any guideline-related template:
There's even the {{ Historical}}, but nonetheless rejected Wikipedia talk:Fame and importance in the same "notability criteria" category.
So here's the question: should Wikipedia:Trivia be included in the same? I mean, the reasons given at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Notability] for such types of pages not becoming guideline over a long period of time, while nonetheless used by wikipedians to make up their minds when applying "NN" (non-notable) in any for Deletion vote, sounds perfectly reasonable to me: put it in the cat, and people will be able to find it. -- Francis Schonken 13:25, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with much of the discussion above that this proposed guideline as it stands is too vague and redundant with other policies. However, I do think something deserves to be said about trivia sections. These are almost always a bad idea, in my opinion, and it's a constant battle to keep the trivia at bay, particularly on articles related to popular culture. For example, today someone made this edit to Woody Woodpecker. Now, the fact that Woody Woodpecker is the favorite character of another fictional character (this one Argentinian) is not something that needs to go in the Woody Woodpecker article. It's akin to adding " Charlie Brown has a striped shirt" under its own section to our pattern article.
Likewise, ". . . in popular culture" sections, while not quite as bad, are also magnets for endless additions of cruft. See for example, the evolution of tengu. It began with this edit, a mere two months ago, which introduced the "Tengu in media" section. Then others discovered the article and decided to add references to their favorite video games and Japanese comics: [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22].
There already seems to be broad consensus that "trivia" sections are bad. At Wikipedia:Featured article candidates, trivia sections are a common obstacle to an article being promoted. These users seem to agree: Superm401, Monicasdude, Rossrs, Wackymacs, Anville, Bte288, Bunchofgrapes, Petaholmes (nixie), and again, Nichalp, Maclean25, Johnleemk, Harro5, Bishonen, and Flcelloguy.
FAC is where the best of our articles are identified. The regulars there have reached consensus on this. Now it's time for the community as a whole. Can we add something on this to this proposed guideline? Is a change in focus warranted? — Amcaja 16:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, a similar discussion has taken up volume at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive V#Should "Trivia" be a valid sub heading for Wikipedia Articles? - I was waiting for that discussion to head anywhere, before changing the ideas presently in Wikipedia:Trivia. -- Francis Schonken 10:21, 29 January 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 |
This discussion is pretty much replaced by the discussion page at Wikipedia:Importance, which was created 10 days before this was. In a previous incarnation, Wikipedia:Importance was structured like this discussion (for/against), but I've since realized that this actually creates a separation of viewpoints rather than consensus (see Wikipedia:How to create policy). How would you feel about merging this to Wikipedia:Importance? ··gracefool | ☺ 23:57, 11 Sep 2004 (UTC)
I'd like to see this discussion run as smoothly as possible, hence the 3 day waiting period. If I'm alone in this (i.e., everyone else wants to open the discussion as it is), then go ahead and remove the notice and start discussing.
Please note, though, that the real reason I decided to wait on updating this page is the discussion on Wikipedia talk:Votes for deletion#Proposal - suspension of VfD. I'd like to wait for some consensus to be reached there — or at least for the flurry of messages to quiet down a little. I'd rather not see this page catch fire. This is an issue that needs to be discussed, but let's do this right, please. • Benc • 03:59, 5 Sep 2004 (UTC)
Someone changed the redirect of this page to "department of fun". Well, something that is "importance" one day (the previous redirect) and "department of fun" the next, maybe needs a definition in his own right, not redirecting to either of these totally opposite pages.
The deeper motivation of re-opening this page as a separate page is this paragraph from the NPOV tutorial:
Different views don't all deserve equal space. Articles need to be interesting to attract and keep the attention of readers. For an entry in an encyclopedia, ideas also need to be important. The amount of space they deserve depends on their importance and how many interesting things can be said about them.
Presently both hyperlinked words in that paragraph ("interesting" defined as being different form "important") redirect to wikipedia:importance, that proposed guideline not giving a clue about what is exactly the difference between "important" and "interesting". That guideline proposal has other problems, I don't need to elaborate here, but even if these problems are all solved, I don't see how it would clarify "interesting" as an inclusion criterion.
So, I propose wikipedia:interesting to redirect to wikipedia:Trivia, giving some insight on where wikipedia draws the line between "interesting" and "not interesting" - but as a separate definition of the difference between "important" and "not important", while otherwise that quite essential paragraph in wikipedia's NPOV concept would become sort of void of real meaning.
-- Francis Schonken 10:48, 30 September 2005 (UTC)
There's an unfortunately widespread tendency among editors to create, at the end of the article, a section entitled "Trivia" or "Miscellaneous facts" or somesuch, where they place a bulleted list of a few facts that they couldn't fit into the article anywhere else. There are two big problems with this:
It's relatively easy to nip this in the bud, when the list contains only a few items. When it has metastasized, as in the Amiga example above, fixing it becomes a herculean task: for every fact on the list, one has to check that it's accurate, check that it's not duplicating anything else, and find an appropriate place for it. This is not easy. If it isn't fixed, however, it not only makes the article look bad and read poorly, but actively contributes to its degradation, as editors add to the list rather than the structured prose above it.
So:
I am inclined to think that removing such lists to the talk page, or a subpage thereof, is the best solution. The information is not lost or buried in the history; editors can, at their leisure, integrate the facts into the article properly; and the section is no longer actively causing damage. Would there be support for a Wikipedia:Trivia section guideline along these lines? — Charles P. (Mirv) 20:22, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
I would disagree. I think it helps keep a concise record of information regarding a given subject, especially in the case of media. In cases of something that spands several series, integration of such information would require more expansion in an already limited area (which tends to cause another article being created to accomodate the size). It is easier to go directly to a certain factoid rather than having to process the entire subject. However it depends on how well the information would be integrated into its respective topic as well. Ereinion 21:35, 29 October 2005 (UTC)
* On October 14, 1978 President Carter signed into law a bill that legalized the homebrewing of beer and wine.
There's trivia and trivia. While this is supposed to be a commonsense thing, some editors (usually anons) seem to have difficulty with this. I've had this on Golem and Metatron, two articles where the trivia section at some point was longer than the remainder of the article. Pop culture references are two-a-penny. In seventy years few people will remember The Simpsons. JFW | T@lk 03:03, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
I recently revived wikipedia:trivia: that had been a separate (proposed?) guideline a long time ago, then it became for several months a redirect to wikipedia:importance (but that guideline is "proposed" for ages without coming to a conclusion). Then someone changed trivia to redirect to BJAODN. Then I revived it as a separate guideline proposal a few weeks ago, and this morning it got sorted in category:wikipedia notability criteria, a wikipedia guidelines subcategory.
Guidance on "trivia lists"/"trivia sections" can be found in wikipedia:trivia#Trivia policy. I don't know whether I did a good job of describing the present policy regarding trivia in that section (I can only say that during the week the revived trivia guideline proposal was on wikipedia:current surveys nobody commented on that section). So please have a check whether that section answers the present questions, and improve and/or suggest improvements on its talk page. -- Francis Schonken 08:51, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
This proposal seems to go against the policy that Wikipedia should be as inclusive of information as possible. With no definition of importance or how interesting something is no decision can be made, and if someone adds something that they think is interesting then chances are that others will find it interesting too. violet/riga (t) 15:26, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
Thanks for the comments,
-- Francis Schonken 08:07, 31 October 2005 (UTC)
The absence of discussion does not equate to the absence of opposing views. The fact that there was little support for the proposal is more important than the fact that nobody bothered to say anything against it. violet/riga (t) 15:26, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
In fact, the general consensus seems to be that this does not deserve its own page and is thus not accepted as a guideline. violet/riga (t) 15:27, 30 October 2005 (UTC)
- The Literate Engineer 03:04, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
Please, Literate Engineer, what are your practical suggestions w.r.t. the guideline text? -- Francis Schonken 09:12, 24 November 2005 (UTC)
I must echo my own previous comments and those of by others above that this has not gained acceptance and should not be labelled as anything more than a proposal. violet/riga (t) 02:16, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
As it happens, several "perennial proposed" guidelines touching on "Notability" are in the Category:wikipedia notability criteria:
Included in that category without any guideline-related template:
There's even the {{ Historical}}, but nonetheless rejected Wikipedia talk:Fame and importance in the same "notability criteria" category.
So here's the question: should Wikipedia:Trivia be included in the same? I mean, the reasons given at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)#Notability] for such types of pages not becoming guideline over a long period of time, while nonetheless used by wikipedians to make up their minds when applying "NN" (non-notable) in any for Deletion vote, sounds perfectly reasonable to me: put it in the cat, and people will be able to find it. -- Francis Schonken 13:25, 24 December 2005 (UTC)
I agree with much of the discussion above that this proposed guideline as it stands is too vague and redundant with other policies. However, I do think something deserves to be said about trivia sections. These are almost always a bad idea, in my opinion, and it's a constant battle to keep the trivia at bay, particularly on articles related to popular culture. For example, today someone made this edit to Woody Woodpecker. Now, the fact that Woody Woodpecker is the favorite character of another fictional character (this one Argentinian) is not something that needs to go in the Woody Woodpecker article. It's akin to adding " Charlie Brown has a striped shirt" under its own section to our pattern article.
Likewise, ". . . in popular culture" sections, while not quite as bad, are also magnets for endless additions of cruft. See for example, the evolution of tengu. It began with this edit, a mere two months ago, which introduced the "Tengu in media" section. Then others discovered the article and decided to add references to their favorite video games and Japanese comics: [12] [13] [14] [15] [16] [17] [18] [19] [20] [21] [22].
There already seems to be broad consensus that "trivia" sections are bad. At Wikipedia:Featured article candidates, trivia sections are a common obstacle to an article being promoted. These users seem to agree: Superm401, Monicasdude, Rossrs, Wackymacs, Anville, Bte288, Bunchofgrapes, Petaholmes (nixie), and again, Nichalp, Maclean25, Johnleemk, Harro5, Bishonen, and Flcelloguy.
FAC is where the best of our articles are identified. The regulars there have reached consensus on this. Now it's time for the community as a whole. Can we add something on this to this proposed guideline? Is a change in focus warranted? — Amcaja 16:56, 19 January 2006 (UTC)
Anyway, a similar discussion has taken up volume at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive V#Should "Trivia" be a valid sub heading for Wikipedia Articles? - I was waiting for that discussion to head anywhere, before changing the ideas presently in Wikipedia:Trivia. -- Francis Schonken 10:21, 29 January 2006 (UTC)