![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
A suggestion has been made for a revamp of this page to:
Good article disputesWikipedia:Good articles is an unbureaucratic system to arrive at a quick consensus set of good articles: everyone can nominate good articles, and everyone has veto power. However, sometimes editors disagree whether an article reaches the good article criteria. This page is for dealing with such disputes. |
If you believe an article should be delisted![]() If you find an article listed as good that does not actually satisfy the good article criteria, then you can delist it:
If you find an article that you suspect should be delisted, but aren't certain, then you can ask other editors to review the situation by adding the article to the list below. |
If you believe an article should be listed![]() If you disagree with a delisting or failed nomination, it's best not to just take the article back to the nominations page straight away.
|
This would form part of a group of related changes. Wikipedia talk:Good articles for more details. TheGrappler 03:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Pelase see Wikipedia_talk:Good_articles#Straw_poll_on_new_lead -- Kim van der Linde at venus 21:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
With this archiving of the Perl discussion, a truncated version was archived. A fuller version of the discussion can be see here. The truncation was right in the middle of a sentence and Harmil's signature was removed. Only someone in charge of maintaining the Good articles/Disputes page should refactor it, and they shouldn't truncate in the middle of a sentence for being off the subject, and they should post to the thread to explain why they did it, and sign it. If nobody else does, I'll go through the edit history to see when and by whom it was truncated. The Perl good article dispute is currently being held against me in arbitration and if it was improperly truncated (which it was), that could affect things. -Barry- 19:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I think somebody started mass-archiving old discussions without checking them very closely, Perl was re-archived again, and several disputes which were clearly in favor of "delist" were not enforced. I think there needs to be more clarity in the instructions about how to archive, so anyone can do it without interrupting things. Homestarmy 00:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to bring a motion to the floor that we change the number of approximate days until something is archived down to a week of stagnent discussion; especially with articles with a bunch of editors, more than 2 weeks is a very long time for an article, and a discussion occuring more than two weeks ago may not even come close to reflecting the actual state of the article. Plus, since archivers are supposed to enforce the final decision when a consensus or near-consensus is reached, this may become difficult if the article has changed too much. Also, what with all the changes going on with discussing the purpose of the project, and the very large need to do a big sweep of the entire list, I predict this page may become far too swelled with articles if the time limit is too long. Homestarmy 16:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
This was my first delisting, so i followed the instructions and just left a topic on the talk page citing my concerns Talk:Harry_Potter#Better_sourcing_is_available. Then I was told that I had to put it on review first? If that is true, I think the instructions need to be made more clear. Borisblue 15:50, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Since recently many people have come here thinking that they can get a review here I suggest we change the lead to mention that this is not a place to get a general review but to review the GA status of an article. Here is what I suggest.
Feel free to comment or change it as you wish. Tarret 22:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I propose to add the following line
to the current list of instrutctions on delisting an article. Comments? -- RelHistBuff 09:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I will leave this for a week until the 22nd and make the change according to the result. -- RelHistBuff 10:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The six related articles one needs archiving as somebody has already delisted them. LuciferMorgan 00:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
It may be helpful to put an appropriate template on a page that is up for, or needs GA review - for example, if the article fails 2a, putting {{ unreferenced}} - this simple measure may allow editors to bring an article for review up to scratch quickly. I've put together a short list of some templates that might be helpful, arranged by each criterion. If others find it helpful, I'd like to see some sort of 'review is paired with cleanup templates' guideline for each review, ie. incorporating the use of templates in the GA review process.
1. any of the Cleanup templates would suffice.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
- Malkinann 07:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Watch out for that slippery slope there. ;) It'd quite possibly be enough to add a comment to the talk page and an appropriate template(s) to the main article space. When delisting for a reason such as referencing issues, appropriate templates should be added to the main article, too. Big templates on the main page get noticed sooner than a note on the talk page. - Malkinann 12:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, I agree that a general corrective template on the main page is a better attention-grabber. But then, one could argue that if one were to require a warning and template for initiating the review process, one could equally argue for a warning and template before the delisting process. These are in any case, common sense steps to take and would perhaps reduce the number of articles coming under review. So how about this?
I can't wikilink to the Category page. Does anyone know how to do that? here -- RelHistBuff 13:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Looking at the current articles on review
So there seems to be a bit of activity going on without using this page, and also little mention on the articles page.
I'm slowly developing User:WillowBot which is cross referncing the various GA pages, see User:Salix alba/GA table. A specific Review template would make things a bit easier. -- Salix alba ( talk) 18:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
{{User:Ling.Nut/GAReview|Arabian Horse}}
Note that the above may be deleted at any time; am changing to "nowiki". -- Ling.Nut 15:51, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
That sounds good to me! :) Thanks for being so nice about it. If people assume good faith when their articles are being reviewed, then it should really help. - Malkinann 22:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
To be clear, this is the final draft before it goes to the main GA and review GA pages:
-- RelHistBuff 14:56, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Archived as NO CONSENSUS. The discussion that was still going on was, unfortunately, mostly bickering (of which I was a part... mea culpa. Actual discussion of the article was more than a a week old. -- Ling.Nut 20:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
On Wikipedia, whenever the status of an article or is under review, it is traditional to place some kind of notice either on that article or on its talk page. Some articles that are my within my Wikiproject's scope have been recently listed, and while I agree entirely with the delisting, I'm a bit taken aback by the process. You see, there was no warning whatsoever aside from the discussion on the "review" page, a page that few editors take the time to watch. It seems to me that the absence of any kind of visible notice makes an article's presence on a "review" page entirely pointless: it could have been simply immediately delisted with approximately the same level of warning. Second, given a week of warning, the project could have been notified, and the shortcomings could have been easily resolved, and now we have to resolve them post facto, and ask for relisting. Am I the only person struck by the inefficiency? – Clockwork Soul 15:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
See above threads "Using templates in the GA review?" and "No notice?"--these obviously had no affect. WHY IS THIS CONTINUING TO HAPPEN. It just happened again with The Scout Association of Hong Kong, and others I'm sure no doubt. This practice needs to CEASE IMMEDIATELY. It is not too much to put SOME SORT OF NOTICE ON THE TALK PAGE. Yes, I'm shouting and I don't care because that's the only that looks like will cause anything to actually happen. No wonder the GA project doesn't have the status of the FA project. The next time I find this happening, I will simply delist the GAR and not notify anyone thereof since they don't have the common decency to do the same. Rlevse 02:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Shouting won't do you any favours
Rlevse, and this requirement hasn't even been in 2 seconds. In other words, it's actually people like YOU who don't keep their GAs up to current standards that are the problem. When they're then listed for GAR, they start complaining. Personally, I frankly don't care, because if the article was kept up to standards in the first place I wouldn't have needed to list it.
LuciferMorgan 19:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Not being a master of Wiki formatting myself, I was wondering if perhaps anyone knows how to change the list of archives to a two rowed table or something else more compact, I think at this rate its going to start bulging into the page soon :/. Homestarmy 23:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
First of all, there have been times when anonymous people have come here to dispute a page, and sometimes some of them bring up good points. Since a person asking for a review isn't actually delisting an article immedietly, I don't feel there's very much of a risk of bad faith abuse, since an anon who actually makes it to this page probably isn't some speedy vandal person or they wouldn't take the time to read the instructions. Second, since this is a page for disputes, what if somebody just wants to be sure about an article that their on the edge about? Then it would be difficult to choose maintenance templates, since problems would be unclear to discover. (and, furthermore, it is probably not easy to choose templates at all if some of the violations arent as clear cut as maint templates make them, for instance, an article may be very well referenced indeed, yet have no inline citations, and there is no "There are too few inline citations" template that I know of). Then there's the last one which I really don't like at all and it appears to be a mistake that it was written this way, the entire intent of the discussion about delisting was so that single-handed delisting couldn't be done immedietly, I recall no discussion about slowing down the process for actually filing a review, and I really don't think any article which can be improved in time needs the time it takes to discuss the article, the week after the discussion grows stale, and then a little bit more to top it off. Can that line just be removed concerning reviews? I just plain don't see the benefit to having to go through all that to list a review. Homestarmy 00:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone double-check to see if articles are actually delisted after having been voted DELIST and then having their discussions archived? I was thinking that I didn't check when I first started archiving things not too long ago...-- Ling.Nut 17:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I was told off recently for forgetting to put notice on the article's talk page, but there's recent GARs on the talk page without notice. LuciferMorgan 23:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
List ideas for possible changes you have here:
(This has become confusing with new comments in the middle of old ones... let's try to keep comments in order of posting, I think they more easily get lost this way.) I know what speedy delist means. I also, as I've stated a few times in the past week, know that recommendations are more than the emboldened portions, and I would appreciate it if people would stop throwing that comment at me as if I were oblivious. I think if I weren't aware of the necessity of detailed arguments, I wouldn't spend hours on reviews of these articles detailing their issues for my supporting arguments.
Now, with that out of they way, hopefully for the last time, my point is that the wording and emphasis of "VERY VERY Weak Keep and cleanup" is more insulting than is "Speedy Delist". Noting again that speedy delists are for articles which fail multiple criteria and could not easily be brought up to standards. It is my opinion that one should not have a vote so weak. It doesn't make sense to me. If the article is in such a condition that your keep is so weak, it seems more appropriate that it would be a "Weak Delist" rather than a keep so weak you have to scream two "VERY"s before it. If it requires cleanup and its quality barely attains your support, it just doesn't come off as up to standards to hold GA. Keep votes should be reserved for those articles with a quality deserving of GA. If an article is close to that quality, but in need of a little work, that would be a conditional keep. It is to say, "The article is good, but just not quite good enough. If these minor changes are made, you have my keep vote."
You're saying that your vote was not a conditional keep. I'm saying that it comes off to me as the epitome of what a conditional keep is. You stated, "...overall I thought it was a pretty good article. The problems that it has are easily fixed by somebody willing to make any effort whatsoever at cleaning it up." Valid claims to disqualify GA, but easy-to-fix ones. If they can be easily fixed, then the article can easily be brought up to standards, in which case it would earn a keep vote. So keep, if the changes are made. That's a conditional keep. That's all I'm saying. LaraLove T/ C 15:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
(unindent)Actually, in the case of Chicago Theatre, it was nominated for relisting because it was improperly delisted. Considering that you, PrinceGloria, did that delisting, I can understand why you would be displeased with the outcome of the discussion, but the archiving instructions clearly state that if it's been three days and there are at least six votes with an 80% or greater consensus, that the discussion can be processed. It had been three days, there were 8 votes, and it was 100% consensus. As far as my wording for the results in the archive, I agree with G-man (I hope you don't mind if I call you that, let me know if you do), and I have amended the results to reflect his thoughts.
Going back to my proposal. I'm not conveying my thoughts as well as I'd like. I would like there to be an either or situation between certain terms, not stances. Meaning either "Endorse" or "Support". I suppose it doesn't matter. Looking at it from a open POV, this is totally ridiculous. I just bugs the hell out of me that three or four people will hold the same stance in a discussion, but every emboldened term will be different. Sounds like a personal problem to me. That's what I'd probably say to someone else if I were not the one making the proposal! Nevermind. I'm too much of a perfectionist about certain things, I think. Time for work. LaraLove T/ C 19:45, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
(unindent)I considered archiving based on the proposed rules, but I thought it better to wait until they'd been approved. I did not include PrinceGloria's part of the discussion towards consensus because there was no official recommendation made by him/her. If this is incorrect, please amend the archive results. Regardless, I still feel that the delisting was improper. The article does not have a myriad of issues that would be time-consuming to correct. Delisting should only be done to articles that cannot be quickly brought back up to standards. While some of us agreed with issues you, PrinceGloria, brought up, none of us agreed that those issues warranted delisting.
As far as emotion, my personal opinion would be that the quality of this article would not even warrant it being brought to GA/R. Issues should have simply been brought up on the talk-page. Although those are my feelings on the issue, emotion had nothing to do with the archiving and relisting of the article. I did those based soley on the fact that it was warranted by current GA/R procedural policy, or whatever you want to call it. Considering the backlog, we need to resolve and process discussions as quickly as we can with our current manpower. LaraLove T/ C 06:48, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I made a first shot at reviewer guidelines now: see, as usual, Wikipedia:Good article review/guidelines.
I think I've done it in such a way that each of these five suggestions can be discussed and modified separately. Please do challenge or reword each of them. Any which are unlikely to receive consensus support are best fixed now, or they will simply be challenged later. Geometry guy 20:27, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks everyone for all the comments and offers to improve my poor attempt! Ironically, given how some of this started from my perspective, I am coming to agree with PrinceGloria that there isn't much point in mentioning "speedy delist" any more: if the proposed archiving guidelines are agreed, and there seems to be some support for this, then referring to them already makes the situation pretty clear. I'm quite happy for the proposed reviewing guidelines to be shortened accordingly. I also agree in principle with the idea that the archiving guidelines should not appear on the main page. However, this does represent at least a shift of emphasis in our modus operandi, so I would suggest that, once we are happy with them, we keep the archiving guidelines on the main page for a couple of weeks to see how they bed down, then review the situation. Geometry guy 18:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I've now attempted to shorten the reviewer guidelines, although I hope that putting these guidelines in a collapsible table has addressed some of the concerns raised above about brevity. As suggested above, I have removed reference to the "speedy" stuff. Also, partly in response to an earlier comment by LaraLove, I have reorganised the delist procedure into more coherent steps. Let me know what you think to the new version. Geometry guy 22:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
A suggestion has been made for a revamp of this page to:
Good article disputesWikipedia:Good articles is an unbureaucratic system to arrive at a quick consensus set of good articles: everyone can nominate good articles, and everyone has veto power. However, sometimes editors disagree whether an article reaches the good article criteria. This page is for dealing with such disputes. |
If you believe an article should be delisted![]() If you find an article listed as good that does not actually satisfy the good article criteria, then you can delist it:
If you find an article that you suspect should be delisted, but aren't certain, then you can ask other editors to review the situation by adding the article to the list below. |
If you believe an article should be listed![]() If you disagree with a delisting or failed nomination, it's best not to just take the article back to the nominations page straight away.
|
This would form part of a group of related changes. Wikipedia talk:Good articles for more details. TheGrappler 03:19, 5 April 2006 (UTC)
Pelase see Wikipedia_talk:Good_articles#Straw_poll_on_new_lead -- Kim van der Linde at venus 21:16, 4 July 2006 (UTC)
With this archiving of the Perl discussion, a truncated version was archived. A fuller version of the discussion can be see here. The truncation was right in the middle of a sentence and Harmil's signature was removed. Only someone in charge of maintaining the Good articles/Disputes page should refactor it, and they shouldn't truncate in the middle of a sentence for being off the subject, and they should post to the thread to explain why they did it, and sign it. If nobody else does, I'll go through the edit history to see when and by whom it was truncated. The Perl good article dispute is currently being held against me in arbitration and if it was improperly truncated (which it was), that could affect things. -Barry- 19:57, 7 July 2006 (UTC)
I think somebody started mass-archiving old discussions without checking them very closely, Perl was re-archived again, and several disputes which were clearly in favor of "delist" were not enforced. I think there needs to be more clarity in the instructions about how to archive, so anyone can do it without interrupting things. Homestarmy 00:42, 17 July 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to bring a motion to the floor that we change the number of approximate days until something is archived down to a week of stagnent discussion; especially with articles with a bunch of editors, more than 2 weeks is a very long time for an article, and a discussion occuring more than two weeks ago may not even come close to reflecting the actual state of the article. Plus, since archivers are supposed to enforce the final decision when a consensus or near-consensus is reached, this may become difficult if the article has changed too much. Also, what with all the changes going on with discussing the purpose of the project, and the very large need to do a big sweep of the entire list, I predict this page may become far too swelled with articles if the time limit is too long. Homestarmy 16:48, 14 September 2006 (UTC)
This was my first delisting, so i followed the instructions and just left a topic on the talk page citing my concerns Talk:Harry_Potter#Better_sourcing_is_available. Then I was told that I had to put it on review first? If that is true, I think the instructions need to be made more clear. Borisblue 15:50, 7 October 2006 (UTC)
Since recently many people have come here thinking that they can get a review here I suggest we change the lead to mention that this is not a place to get a general review but to review the GA status of an article. Here is what I suggest.
Feel free to comment or change it as you wish. Tarret 22:26, 8 November 2006 (UTC)
I propose to add the following line
to the current list of instrutctions on delisting an article. Comments? -- RelHistBuff 09:10, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I will leave this for a week until the 22nd and make the change according to the result. -- RelHistBuff 10:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
The six related articles one needs archiving as somebody has already delisted them. LuciferMorgan 00:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
It may be helpful to put an appropriate template on a page that is up for, or needs GA review - for example, if the article fails 2a, putting {{ unreferenced}} - this simple measure may allow editors to bring an article for review up to scratch quickly. I've put together a short list of some templates that might be helpful, arranged by each criterion. If others find it helpful, I'd like to see some sort of 'review is paired with cleanup templates' guideline for each review, ie. incorporating the use of templates in the GA review process.
1. any of the Cleanup templates would suffice.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
- Malkinann 07:20, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Watch out for that slippery slope there. ;) It'd quite possibly be enough to add a comment to the talk page and an appropriate template(s) to the main article space. When delisting for a reason such as referencing issues, appropriate templates should be added to the main article, too. Big templates on the main page get noticed sooner than a note on the talk page. - Malkinann 12:14, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, I agree that a general corrective template on the main page is a better attention-grabber. But then, one could argue that if one were to require a warning and template for initiating the review process, one could equally argue for a warning and template before the delisting process. These are in any case, common sense steps to take and would perhaps reduce the number of articles coming under review. So how about this?
I can't wikilink to the Category page. Does anyone know how to do that? here -- RelHistBuff 13:08, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Looking at the current articles on review
So there seems to be a bit of activity going on without using this page, and also little mention on the articles page.
I'm slowly developing User:WillowBot which is cross referncing the various GA pages, see User:Salix alba/GA table. A specific Review template would make things a bit easier. -- Salix alba ( talk) 18:30, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
{{User:Ling.Nut/GAReview|Arabian Horse}}
Note that the above may be deleted at any time; am changing to "nowiki". -- Ling.Nut 15:51, 30 December 2006 (UTC)
That sounds good to me! :) Thanks for being so nice about it. If people assume good faith when their articles are being reviewed, then it should really help. - Malkinann 22:44, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
To be clear, this is the final draft before it goes to the main GA and review GA pages:
-- RelHistBuff 14:56, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
Archived as NO CONSENSUS. The discussion that was still going on was, unfortunately, mostly bickering (of which I was a part... mea culpa. Actual discussion of the article was more than a a week old. -- Ling.Nut 20:10, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
On Wikipedia, whenever the status of an article or is under review, it is traditional to place some kind of notice either on that article or on its talk page. Some articles that are my within my Wikiproject's scope have been recently listed, and while I agree entirely with the delisting, I'm a bit taken aback by the process. You see, there was no warning whatsoever aside from the discussion on the "review" page, a page that few editors take the time to watch. It seems to me that the absence of any kind of visible notice makes an article's presence on a "review" page entirely pointless: it could have been simply immediately delisted with approximately the same level of warning. Second, given a week of warning, the project could have been notified, and the shortcomings could have been easily resolved, and now we have to resolve them post facto, and ask for relisting. Am I the only person struck by the inefficiency? – Clockwork Soul 15:19, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
See above threads "Using templates in the GA review?" and "No notice?"--these obviously had no affect. WHY IS THIS CONTINUING TO HAPPEN. It just happened again with The Scout Association of Hong Kong, and others I'm sure no doubt. This practice needs to CEASE IMMEDIATELY. It is not too much to put SOME SORT OF NOTICE ON THE TALK PAGE. Yes, I'm shouting and I don't care because that's the only that looks like will cause anything to actually happen. No wonder the GA project doesn't have the status of the FA project. The next time I find this happening, I will simply delist the GAR and not notify anyone thereof since they don't have the common decency to do the same. Rlevse 02:44, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Shouting won't do you any favours
Rlevse, and this requirement hasn't even been in 2 seconds. In other words, it's actually people like YOU who don't keep their GAs up to current standards that are the problem. When they're then listed for GAR, they start complaining. Personally, I frankly don't care, because if the article was kept up to standards in the first place I wouldn't have needed to list it.
LuciferMorgan 19:48, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
Not being a master of Wiki formatting myself, I was wondering if perhaps anyone knows how to change the list of archives to a two rowed table or something else more compact, I think at this rate its going to start bulging into the page soon :/. Homestarmy 23:36, 10 December 2006 (UTC)
First of all, there have been times when anonymous people have come here to dispute a page, and sometimes some of them bring up good points. Since a person asking for a review isn't actually delisting an article immedietly, I don't feel there's very much of a risk of bad faith abuse, since an anon who actually makes it to this page probably isn't some speedy vandal person or they wouldn't take the time to read the instructions. Second, since this is a page for disputes, what if somebody just wants to be sure about an article that their on the edge about? Then it would be difficult to choose maintenance templates, since problems would be unclear to discover. (and, furthermore, it is probably not easy to choose templates at all if some of the violations arent as clear cut as maint templates make them, for instance, an article may be very well referenced indeed, yet have no inline citations, and there is no "There are too few inline citations" template that I know of). Then there's the last one which I really don't like at all and it appears to be a mistake that it was written this way, the entire intent of the discussion about delisting was so that single-handed delisting couldn't be done immedietly, I recall no discussion about slowing down the process for actually filing a review, and I really don't think any article which can be improved in time needs the time it takes to discuss the article, the week after the discussion grows stale, and then a little bit more to top it off. Can that line just be removed concerning reviews? I just plain don't see the benefit to having to go through all that to list a review. Homestarmy 00:57, 11 December 2006 (UTC)
Does anyone double-check to see if articles are actually delisted after having been voted DELIST and then having their discussions archived? I was thinking that I didn't check when I first started archiving things not too long ago...-- Ling.Nut 17:03, 15 December 2006 (UTC)
I was told off recently for forgetting to put notice on the article's talk page, but there's recent GARs on the talk page without notice. LuciferMorgan 23:05, 17 December 2006 (UTC)
List ideas for possible changes you have here:
(This has become confusing with new comments in the middle of old ones... let's try to keep comments in order of posting, I think they more easily get lost this way.) I know what speedy delist means. I also, as I've stated a few times in the past week, know that recommendations are more than the emboldened portions, and I would appreciate it if people would stop throwing that comment at me as if I were oblivious. I think if I weren't aware of the necessity of detailed arguments, I wouldn't spend hours on reviews of these articles detailing their issues for my supporting arguments.
Now, with that out of they way, hopefully for the last time, my point is that the wording and emphasis of "VERY VERY Weak Keep and cleanup" is more insulting than is "Speedy Delist". Noting again that speedy delists are for articles which fail multiple criteria and could not easily be brought up to standards. It is my opinion that one should not have a vote so weak. It doesn't make sense to me. If the article is in such a condition that your keep is so weak, it seems more appropriate that it would be a "Weak Delist" rather than a keep so weak you have to scream two "VERY"s before it. If it requires cleanup and its quality barely attains your support, it just doesn't come off as up to standards to hold GA. Keep votes should be reserved for those articles with a quality deserving of GA. If an article is close to that quality, but in need of a little work, that would be a conditional keep. It is to say, "The article is good, but just not quite good enough. If these minor changes are made, you have my keep vote."
You're saying that your vote was not a conditional keep. I'm saying that it comes off to me as the epitome of what a conditional keep is. You stated, "...overall I thought it was a pretty good article. The problems that it has are easily fixed by somebody willing to make any effort whatsoever at cleaning it up." Valid claims to disqualify GA, but easy-to-fix ones. If they can be easily fixed, then the article can easily be brought up to standards, in which case it would earn a keep vote. So keep, if the changes are made. That's a conditional keep. That's all I'm saying. LaraLove T/ C 15:12, 26 June 2007 (UTC)
(unindent)Actually, in the case of Chicago Theatre, it was nominated for relisting because it was improperly delisted. Considering that you, PrinceGloria, did that delisting, I can understand why you would be displeased with the outcome of the discussion, but the archiving instructions clearly state that if it's been three days and there are at least six votes with an 80% or greater consensus, that the discussion can be processed. It had been three days, there were 8 votes, and it was 100% consensus. As far as my wording for the results in the archive, I agree with G-man (I hope you don't mind if I call you that, let me know if you do), and I have amended the results to reflect his thoughts.
Going back to my proposal. I'm not conveying my thoughts as well as I'd like. I would like there to be an either or situation between certain terms, not stances. Meaning either "Endorse" or "Support". I suppose it doesn't matter. Looking at it from a open POV, this is totally ridiculous. I just bugs the hell out of me that three or four people will hold the same stance in a discussion, but every emboldened term will be different. Sounds like a personal problem to me. That's what I'd probably say to someone else if I were not the one making the proposal! Nevermind. I'm too much of a perfectionist about certain things, I think. Time for work. LaraLove T/ C 19:45, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
(unindent)I considered archiving based on the proposed rules, but I thought it better to wait until they'd been approved. I did not include PrinceGloria's part of the discussion towards consensus because there was no official recommendation made by him/her. If this is incorrect, please amend the archive results. Regardless, I still feel that the delisting was improper. The article does not have a myriad of issues that would be time-consuming to correct. Delisting should only be done to articles that cannot be quickly brought back up to standards. While some of us agreed with issues you, PrinceGloria, brought up, none of us agreed that those issues warranted delisting.
As far as emotion, my personal opinion would be that the quality of this article would not even warrant it being brought to GA/R. Issues should have simply been brought up on the talk-page. Although those are my feelings on the issue, emotion had nothing to do with the archiving and relisting of the article. I did those based soley on the fact that it was warranted by current GA/R procedural policy, or whatever you want to call it. Considering the backlog, we need to resolve and process discussions as quickly as we can with our current manpower. LaraLove T/ C 06:48, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I made a first shot at reviewer guidelines now: see, as usual, Wikipedia:Good article review/guidelines.
I think I've done it in such a way that each of these five suggestions can be discussed and modified separately. Please do challenge or reword each of them. Any which are unlikely to receive consensus support are best fixed now, or they will simply be challenged later. Geometry guy 20:27, 23 June 2007 (UTC)
Thanks everyone for all the comments and offers to improve my poor attempt! Ironically, given how some of this started from my perspective, I am coming to agree with PrinceGloria that there isn't much point in mentioning "speedy delist" any more: if the proposed archiving guidelines are agreed, and there seems to be some support for this, then referring to them already makes the situation pretty clear. I'm quite happy for the proposed reviewing guidelines to be shortened accordingly. I also agree in principle with the idea that the archiving guidelines should not appear on the main page. However, this does represent at least a shift of emphasis in our modus operandi, so I would suggest that, once we are happy with them, we keep the archiving guidelines on the main page for a couple of weeks to see how they bed down, then review the situation. Geometry guy 18:13, 24 June 2007 (UTC)
I've now attempted to shorten the reviewer guidelines, although I hope that putting these guidelines in a collapsible table has addressed some of the concerns raised above about brevity. As suggested above, I have removed reference to the "speedy" stuff. Also, partly in response to an earlier comment by LaraLove, I have reorganised the delist procedure into more coherent steps. Let me know what you think to the new version. Geometry guy 22:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)