![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Oh Bull! Fred Bauder 21:36, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand the point of this page. It encourages people to leave Wikipedia and fork it! Something like that wouldn't be out of place on some anti-Wikipedia site, but what the hell does it do in Wikipedia namespace??? Grue 08:15, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, they may not be saying it in the most pleasant way, but it's all quite true. Blocking a disruptive user is sometimes said (by wikilawyers) to violate that user's right to free speech, and this is a succinct rebuttal. See also the (rather redundant but apparently wanted) Wikipedia:User prerogatives. R adiant _>|< 13:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
The intent was not to be rude, but rather, to be succinct and clear. There have been far too many fallacious free speech claims being made onsite recently, and this was intended to be a quick and clear rebuttal of those claims. If others have suggestions for making it more pleasant, please, by all means, feel free to do so. Essjay Talk • Contact 17:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
By the way, this article completely misses the rights that are provided to the copyright holder by GFDL license, namely, that all edits of a user should be attributed to him. Grue 19:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Grue, I get that you're trying to be comprehensive, but the point of the page, like a lot of other Wikipedia: space pages, is to make a quick point in response to the whining of trolls and vandals (case in point, WP:TINC). Sure, there are other rights you have; you have a right to appeal to Jimbo, you have a right to sign your posts on talk pages, you have a right to edit in the nude. You also have a right to vanish (to a degree); the point is, when it comes to free speech, you don't have a right to it. The phrase "You have two rights on Wikipedia: the right to fork, and the right to leave" was not coined by me, it is a longstanding response to such nonsense arguments as "I have a right to edit Wikipedia" and I simply seized on it for this page. If it really disturbs you so much, edit the page to add other rights, or put the page on MfD; it isn't worth bartering back and forth over which rights should be enumerated on a page that is inteneded as a quick and consise response to trolls. Essjay Talk • Contact 19:47, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Personal sniping? I'm not exactly sure what you're alleging...I don't know of any reason Grue & I would be sniping at each other; we disagree over the usefulness of the page, but unless I've missed something, there is nothing personal involved. Could you elaborate on exactly what you mean? Essjay Talk • Contact 20:37, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Some people here are missing the point: that you have no right to 'free speech' is a necessary pre-requisite for our most basic rules... It's also intuitively obvious, but some people are so dense that it needs to be stated explicitly. Before blindly reverting at least attempt to make an argument that users do have a right to free speech on Wikipedia. -- Gmaxwell 00:15, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone arguing that this isn't policy (originally it was common law, but since the WikiLawyers insist on codification, it's had to be made explicit) provide a reason why? Wikipedia does not recognise the right of its users or editors to free speech while on Wikipedia, in the same way that you can't complain about a newspaper editor who rejected your 50-page rant abrogating your right to free speech. Johnleemk | Talk 08:05, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I just want to point out, since I'm the "author" of this page (that is, I was the one who wrote the original draft and posted it here) that I never intended the page to be a policy or a guideline or anything else, for that matter. We get a lot of people who like to claim they have a right to edit Wikipeida, and that is false: They don't, nobody does. The powers that be (the Board, Jimbo, the AC in many cases, etc.) can ban anybody they like, and there is absolutley nothing that can be done about it (with the obvious point that you can appeal up the chain, but when the top says no, you're stuck). The entire point of the page was just to be a short little page that said, in no uncertain terms: "You may think you have a right to edit here, you may think that the First Amendment applies here, but you're wrong. If you want to be taken seriously, start with getting your facts straight." That's all it was supposed to be, and I want to be sure that I've made it clear what my intent was in writing it: I wasn't creating policy.
I for one don't care what the page ends up marked as; mark it policy, mark it a guideline, mark it an essay, mark it for MFD for all I care, just please, don't edit war over it. It really isn't that important, and it certainly isn't important enough to fight over. We've got a lot more serious things to worry about than the tag that is on a silly little page like this, so whomever is listening, whomever cares about how the page is marked (and as I said, I don't), please discuss it here and come to an agreement. Please. Essjay Talk • Contact 19:25, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
To solve this Dispute one and for all. If this Essay Reflects the Policy Then A policy page Probably Already Exists on this issue.
Label this Essay as an essay and in the == See also == and == Contra == section link to the Official policy and criticism.
We cans say on the top of the page
This page is an essay but this page is the Official policy
Or
This essay reflects the Views of this Policy
and we link to The official Version while not Restricting This version.-- E-Bod 01:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I Don't think we actually have such a freedom. We are not allowed to fork an article as a solution to an edit war. Such would create 2 Strongly Biased Articles instead of one more neutral one with the users as checks and balances-- E-Bod 01:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed the policy tag, seeing that it had been added a few weeks ago. I did this for two reasons:
The first reason has nothing to do with the actual content of the page itself. It just seems like the status of this page has been a contention issue in the past. A policy should have strong community support. Right now, there here is no consensus that this is policy-- when this discussion was held in April, the conclusion seems to have been reached that it was NOT policy. In any case, I can't find any strong evidence that this really is policy, so, for that reason alone, it seems like we should leave the policy tag down until such time as it's so overwhelmingly obvious that there is a consensus, so that any fool can see that there is a huge consensus that this should be policy. Right now, it's not obvious, so we should leave the tag down until everyone is sure.
The second issue is just the tone. Official policy pages speak with the "voice" of Wikipedia-- and that voice should sound friendly and nice. This page is adversarial and a little hostile. I'm sure there's a time and place for this content and tone, but I don't know that an official policy page is that place. I totally see how someone would want to have a page to point people to in order to say "You can't sue us, so... quit threatening us, and if you don't like us, you can go somewhere else". But all the same, I'd rather not have "Mr. Wikipedia, the disembodied voice of the encyclopedia" be the one too take so gruff a tone.
Thirdly, I tend be a little uneasy about the content of this paage. It's not that it's "wrong" per se-- the page isn't wrong, it's totally legally correct. If you try to "sue" Wikipedia Foundation for violating your first amendment rights, your case will be laughed out of court. So, the page certainly may have a purpose, because if anyone threatens to sue us, it doesn't hurt for us to point out to them that they really can't do that, so they might as well not waste their time. WP:NOT also has a reminder of this sentiment.
But in a larger sense, "Free Speech" isn't just about laws, it's a different set of principles that are independent of national laws, but instead describe the ideal ways for groups of human beings to interact. Despite its title this page doesn't really address "Free Speech"-- which is a nebulous, international, semi-religious concept. I'd be more comfortable it if was entitled "Applicability of US First Amendment to Wikipedia". The fact is, free speech ideals do color Wikipedia, even if wikipedia is not unregulated free speech-- just as democratic ideals color wikipedia even if wikipedia is not a democracy. "Wikipedia is not censored", for example.
Lastly, and somewhat irrelevatly, I should point out that this page's interpretation of the First Amendment is legally over-simplistic. In the modern interpretation, the First Amendment does not apply just to congress-- we now routinely accept its application to state and local levels of government, public schools, public universities, etc. Additionally, many private entities must also respect First Amendment rights if they consitute a "public forum"-- so, for example, a shopping center cannot limit free speech, even though they are a private company. [1] None of that really matters, since I sincerely doubt any crackpot POV pusher is going to be winning a civil rights lawsuit against Wikipedia anytime soon. But I thought I'd mention that things aren't quite as straightforward as this page makes them seem.
-- Alecmconroy 04:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
At least at the moment the www.usemod.com ext links are giving 500 server errors. 76.22.4.86 00:10, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
This page could be considered rude and disrespectful, kind of like reverse wikilawyering.
I understand the point the page is making, but honestly, do we have to be so crass and uncivil about it? I'm going to try and edit it to make the knife a little more hidden in the toga, so to speak. Please advise me if you'd rather I didn't.
Katana0182 ( talk) 03:47, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Someone may want to go ahead and put something up against this -
Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
"Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."
I can see someone trying to defend their insignificant article with that. Gomezbuster ( talk) 21:51, 19 November 2009 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 |
Oh Bull! Fred Bauder 21:36, 20 January 2006 (UTC)
I don't understand the point of this page. It encourages people to leave Wikipedia and fork it! Something like that wouldn't be out of place on some anti-Wikipedia site, but what the hell does it do in Wikipedia namespace??? Grue 08:15, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
Well, they may not be saying it in the most pleasant way, but it's all quite true. Blocking a disruptive user is sometimes said (by wikilawyers) to violate that user's right to free speech, and this is a succinct rebuttal. See also the (rather redundant but apparently wanted) Wikipedia:User prerogatives. R adiant _>|< 13:03, 22 January 2006 (UTC)
The intent was not to be rude, but rather, to be succinct and clear. There have been far too many fallacious free speech claims being made onsite recently, and this was intended to be a quick and clear rebuttal of those claims. If others have suggestions for making it more pleasant, please, by all means, feel free to do so. Essjay Talk • Contact 17:14, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
By the way, this article completely misses the rights that are provided to the copyright holder by GFDL license, namely, that all edits of a user should be attributed to him. Grue 19:30, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Grue, I get that you're trying to be comprehensive, but the point of the page, like a lot of other Wikipedia: space pages, is to make a quick point in response to the whining of trolls and vandals (case in point, WP:TINC). Sure, there are other rights you have; you have a right to appeal to Jimbo, you have a right to sign your posts on talk pages, you have a right to edit in the nude. You also have a right to vanish (to a degree); the point is, when it comes to free speech, you don't have a right to it. The phrase "You have two rights on Wikipedia: the right to fork, and the right to leave" was not coined by me, it is a longstanding response to such nonsense arguments as "I have a right to edit Wikipedia" and I simply seized on it for this page. If it really disturbs you so much, edit the page to add other rights, or put the page on MfD; it isn't worth bartering back and forth over which rights should be enumerated on a page that is inteneded as a quick and consise response to trolls. Essjay Talk • Contact 19:47, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Personal sniping? I'm not exactly sure what you're alleging...I don't know of any reason Grue & I would be sniping at each other; we disagree over the usefulness of the page, but unless I've missed something, there is nothing personal involved. Could you elaborate on exactly what you mean? Essjay Talk • Contact 20:37, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
Some people here are missing the point: that you have no right to 'free speech' is a necessary pre-requisite for our most basic rules... It's also intuitively obvious, but some people are so dense that it needs to be stated explicitly. Before blindly reverting at least attempt to make an argument that users do have a right to free speech on Wikipedia. -- Gmaxwell 00:15, 21 April 2006 (UTC)
Can anyone arguing that this isn't policy (originally it was common law, but since the WikiLawyers insist on codification, it's had to be made explicit) provide a reason why? Wikipedia does not recognise the right of its users or editors to free speech while on Wikipedia, in the same way that you can't complain about a newspaper editor who rejected your 50-page rant abrogating your right to free speech. Johnleemk | Talk 08:05, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
I just want to point out, since I'm the "author" of this page (that is, I was the one who wrote the original draft and posted it here) that I never intended the page to be a policy or a guideline or anything else, for that matter. We get a lot of people who like to claim they have a right to edit Wikipeida, and that is false: They don't, nobody does. The powers that be (the Board, Jimbo, the AC in many cases, etc.) can ban anybody they like, and there is absolutley nothing that can be done about it (with the obvious point that you can appeal up the chain, but when the top says no, you're stuck). The entire point of the page was just to be a short little page that said, in no uncertain terms: "You may think you have a right to edit here, you may think that the First Amendment applies here, but you're wrong. If you want to be taken seriously, start with getting your facts straight." That's all it was supposed to be, and I want to be sure that I've made it clear what my intent was in writing it: I wasn't creating policy.
I for one don't care what the page ends up marked as; mark it policy, mark it a guideline, mark it an essay, mark it for MFD for all I care, just please, don't edit war over it. It really isn't that important, and it certainly isn't important enough to fight over. We've got a lot more serious things to worry about than the tag that is on a silly little page like this, so whomever is listening, whomever cares about how the page is marked (and as I said, I don't), please discuss it here and come to an agreement. Please. Essjay Talk • Contact 19:25, 22 April 2006 (UTC)
To solve this Dispute one and for all. If this Essay Reflects the Policy Then A policy page Probably Already Exists on this issue.
Label this Essay as an essay and in the == See also == and == Contra == section link to the Official policy and criticism.
We cans say on the top of the page
This page is an essay but this page is the Official policy
Or
This essay reflects the Views of this Policy
and we link to The official Version while not Restricting This version.-- E-Bod 01:40, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I Don't think we actually have such a freedom. We are not allowed to fork an article as a solution to an edit war. Such would create 2 Strongly Biased Articles instead of one more neutral one with the users as checks and balances-- E-Bod 01:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC)
I removed the policy tag, seeing that it had been added a few weeks ago. I did this for two reasons:
The first reason has nothing to do with the actual content of the page itself. It just seems like the status of this page has been a contention issue in the past. A policy should have strong community support. Right now, there here is no consensus that this is policy-- when this discussion was held in April, the conclusion seems to have been reached that it was NOT policy. In any case, I can't find any strong evidence that this really is policy, so, for that reason alone, it seems like we should leave the policy tag down until such time as it's so overwhelmingly obvious that there is a consensus, so that any fool can see that there is a huge consensus that this should be policy. Right now, it's not obvious, so we should leave the tag down until everyone is sure.
The second issue is just the tone. Official policy pages speak with the "voice" of Wikipedia-- and that voice should sound friendly and nice. This page is adversarial and a little hostile. I'm sure there's a time and place for this content and tone, but I don't know that an official policy page is that place. I totally see how someone would want to have a page to point people to in order to say "You can't sue us, so... quit threatening us, and if you don't like us, you can go somewhere else". But all the same, I'd rather not have "Mr. Wikipedia, the disembodied voice of the encyclopedia" be the one too take so gruff a tone.
Thirdly, I tend be a little uneasy about the content of this paage. It's not that it's "wrong" per se-- the page isn't wrong, it's totally legally correct. If you try to "sue" Wikipedia Foundation for violating your first amendment rights, your case will be laughed out of court. So, the page certainly may have a purpose, because if anyone threatens to sue us, it doesn't hurt for us to point out to them that they really can't do that, so they might as well not waste their time. WP:NOT also has a reminder of this sentiment.
But in a larger sense, "Free Speech" isn't just about laws, it's a different set of principles that are independent of national laws, but instead describe the ideal ways for groups of human beings to interact. Despite its title this page doesn't really address "Free Speech"-- which is a nebulous, international, semi-religious concept. I'd be more comfortable it if was entitled "Applicability of US First Amendment to Wikipedia". The fact is, free speech ideals do color Wikipedia, even if wikipedia is not unregulated free speech-- just as democratic ideals color wikipedia even if wikipedia is not a democracy. "Wikipedia is not censored", for example.
Lastly, and somewhat irrelevatly, I should point out that this page's interpretation of the First Amendment is legally over-simplistic. In the modern interpretation, the First Amendment does not apply just to congress-- we now routinely accept its application to state and local levels of government, public schools, public universities, etc. Additionally, many private entities must also respect First Amendment rights if they consitute a "public forum"-- so, for example, a shopping center cannot limit free speech, even though they are a private company. [1] None of that really matters, since I sincerely doubt any crackpot POV pusher is going to be winning a civil rights lawsuit against Wikipedia anytime soon. But I thought I'd mention that things aren't quite as straightforward as this page makes them seem.
-- Alecmconroy 04:01, 5 November 2006 (UTC)
At least at the moment the www.usemod.com ext links are giving 500 server errors. 76.22.4.86 00:10, 13 February 2007 (UTC)
This page could be considered rude and disrespectful, kind of like reverse wikilawyering.
I understand the point the page is making, but honestly, do we have to be so crass and uncivil about it? I'm going to try and edit it to make the knife a little more hidden in the toga, so to speak. Please advise me if you'd rather I didn't.
Katana0182 ( talk) 03:47, 8 April 2009 (UTC)
Someone may want to go ahead and put something up against this -
Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights
"Everyone has the right to freedom of opinion and expression; this right includes freedom to hold opinions without interference and to seek, receive and impart information and ideas through any media and regardless of frontiers."
I can see someone trying to defend their insignificant article with that. Gomezbuster ( talk) 21:51, 19 November 2009 (UTC)