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Refactored to archives on 19:29, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I wonder, shouldn't there be a (informal) criterion that featured article should contain no red links? I haven't noticed that some would have, until Caesar cipher, which has red link to pattern word. Samohyl Jan 18:58, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What is the appropriate way to deal with references to other wikipedia content? Wikipedia:Cite sources suggests not including them in a references section. Fair enough; the original references will be in other wikipedia articles, which we can follow links to see. But this raises the possibility of an article with no references section at all that is actually soundly referenced. The easiest way for that to happen is to write a monster article, full of detailed references, then have it split according to Wikipedia:Summary style so that everything in the article is then a summary of some other wikipedia article, which contains all the references.
This hasn't happened yet, exactly, but I was editing carbon and removed the only entry under "References" because replaced the only place it was used with information from material properties of diamond. (Of course, carbon should have loads of references, but that's beside the point for now...) -- Andrew 04:11, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
I think ALoan is right. But it's true that (especially for print references) we should be more willing to trust well-referenced Wikipedia articles than random unsupported claims. What I mean is, I think it's okay, although not ideal, to simply plunder another wikipedia article for facts; ideally, one would go check the references. Only if this is done should the refs be added to the article's refs section. This will be more easily done if one records which wikipedia article the refs come from. What I've been doing with all my refs is putting an abbreviated specific reference in comments (like <!--[[Material properties of diamond]]--> or <!--http://www.scuba-doc.com/HPNS.html-->) and then (if it's not a Wikipedia article) listing the detailed ref in the References section. --~~~~
Should it be a guideline that a Featured Article should attempt to include as many links as possible to other languages? I've been using aka's marvellous search tool to add these to as many Featured Article Candidates as possible, and if I have time I might start on some existing FAs. It only really works for proper names, so we couldn't make this a hard and fast rule - people can't be expected to translate an article title into 93 different languages - but where it's easy to check what exists, I think this should be encouraged. -- 194.73.130.132 15:35, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am hoping on nominating music of the United States soon. Having recently used the Titan (moon) system of referencing, I'd like to get some input from the FAC crowd (since PR is inappropriate for this case). See the References section, with quotes from the sources. I think this is very useful and interesting, but is making the references section very long. If the entire article is done like this, it will be way over 32k. Should I remove the quotes but otherwise keep the referencing the way it is? Or does page size not matter in this case? Do you like the sound sample download format (e.g. at Music of the United States#Native American music)? Or does that seem to obtrusive? Tuf-Kat 17:04, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)
Is their a general rule for the status of fictional articles with regards to their eligability (or lack there of) of becoming featured articles? I cannot seem to find anything regarding the subject. TomStar81 08:35, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm talking about 'an article which covers a topic in fiction', like the kinds of examples Raul654 named. The reason I brought I up is because some of the articles related to the Gundam Universe (which is an entirely fictional universe) have been refined enough to meet the needed criteria for featured article status, but the only featured articles I see are those that come from the actual real world. I know that fair use images do not qualify for featured picture status, but I was unclear on whether or not fictional articles were similarly disqualified. TomStar81 23:29, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I for one think the changes are great, and make the criteria simpler and more concise. However, now the section on images is gone and the only leftover part says you don't really need images. I think that is misleading since in practice every article that does not have an image is objected to multiple times. The only ones that make it through without one are conceptual articles where an actual image is difficult or impossible. I think the criteria should reflct some clarity around this issue. - [ this was User:Taxman ] 12:01, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments. I came across two conflicting sentences while editing:
I left things as they were to avoid controversy, and assumed that images were not a prerequsite for FA status. I would be happy to re-word the paragraph to reflect your comments.
If pictures were required, would it be okay if I removed the following sentence: "however, even if the subject does not have any obvious images associated with it, a suggested picture which could be used to represent it on the Main Page (it can be an abstract symbol that would be too generic for the article itself) is helpful."
=mrcleanup= 13:33, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Looks good. :) -- mav 01:16, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Whoa - this series of edits almost slipped by me. I only checked the diff for the last one, not realizing there were a bunch more. Anyway, from what I can see, it looks good. →Raul654 01:33, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
At the danger of getting the wrong answer, I think we need to discuss whether inline citations are simply desirable in a featured article, or mandatory. The absence of inline citations has been coming up as an objection on WP:FAC very frequently in recent weeks, principally by mav. I know he has the highest of motives, but, to my mind, at least, that objection is not supported by the current criteria: Wikipedia:What is a featured article currently says that a featured article should be "enhanced by the appropriate use of inline citations", not "must contain inline citations".
There seems to be a slippery slope - the same slippery slope that made the criterion for references go from "when and where appropriate" to required, see above - that will require any featured articles to look like an academic treatise, not an encyclopedia article. I am not objecting to the requirement to provide sources to justify the broad content of an article, nor indeed to provide specific inline citations (whether using {{ inote}} or otherwise) to support an specific surprising, contentious or debateable point, but I think requiring inline citations as a matter of course is simply overkill. -- ALoan (Talk) 20:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Note that due to the amount of work required to add inline cites retroactively, I very strongly oppose this requirement to be retroactive on FAs that were nominated before this was a requirement. I do, however, think that a lack of a populated ==References== section is a reasonable thing to add to a FARC nomination (but that should not be the only reason). Adding such a section to an older article is not nearly as difficult as adding inline cites to such an article. -- mav 14:18, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Following the move of Wikipedia:What is a featured list to Wikipedia:What is a featured list?, should this also move to Wikipedia:What is a featured article? (that is, shouldn't the article's name end in a question mark?) -- ALoan (Talk) 13:29, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No no, I don't like this idea one bit. Not only does it strike me as pedantic, but (a) tons of pages already link here and (b) it makes the article harder to find. →Raul654 14:41, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
As was suggested above, if we were going to move it (and I'm still not fond of the idea) Wikipedia:featured article criteria would be the place to put it. →Raul654 16:50, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
I know that it is listed as a step in "The Path to a Featured Article" infobox, but I have been noticing more and more often that articles seem to be nominated for FA without even bothering to go through the peer review process. Or they get impatient after about a week of PR and jump it over to FAC. Perhaps there should be a rule that any article is firmly required, without exception, to go through peer review for the full month period that PR remains active before being allowed to be a FAC. Should that apply also to repeat bids? (I think so - I can't see how it can hurt to give an article more time and outside help.) Even if there are good articles that get through to FA without PR, I find it hard to believe that the process can be a significant impediment to any article. As it is, aren't we getting too many featured articles passed per month anyway? Not to say that's a bad thing at all, but clearly there is a backlog, so should anyone object that a new rule of this sort would lower the number of promoted articles, the answer seems to be that that doesn't appear to necessarily be a bad thing in the short term - some of those older promoted ones waiting in the wings and getting dusty can finally see the Main Page! Anyway, just my musings... What do you all think? -- Girolamo Savonarola July 2, 2005 02:34 (UTC)
If you recommend an article should be sent to Peer Review, you should be active on Peer Review -- PopUpPirate 01:34, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Please take a look. -- MarSch 10:42, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Raul, can we list the acceptable image copyrights on here for Requirement Five, for future reference? There is still a problem about fair use images at FAC. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 21:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to change
to
Is there any reason to set the bar lower? - Fredrik | talk 12:00, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps we might want to explicitly put the "...is well-documented; reputable sources are cited, especially those which are the most accessible and up-to-date." part of Wikipedia:The perfect article here; I see that this is a criticism that often arises in candidacies, and I reckon that it isn't obvious for people who are not accustomed to scientific article,s for instance. Rama 07:14, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, My point was mostly emphasised like this: "...is well-documented; reputable sources are cited, especially those which are the most accessible and up-to-date." I worry much more about people not giving any source, than people ginving sources of questionable value. Rama 20:33, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
There's obviously a clash of opinions when it comes to the following sentence:
For one thing, the widespread notion that "inline citation" means "footnote" is a problem. That this sentence is cited by those who feel that inline citations should be mandatory is an even bigger problem. Most FAC subjects should be comprehensive and general enough to require inline citations, but that does not mean it applies to all candidates equally. Personally, I feel the current wording is ambiguous for a reason and should stay that way. Just like too many images or a bad sub-section hierarchy will spoil an article, so will a pointless sprinkling of cosmetic footnotes. A very good example of this is names of the Greeks.
I think all objections that call for more referencing without proper justification should be disregarded, especially when made with nonsense claims that, for example, all historical facts need specific references. Blanket statements like this is about as merited as "it's not interesting enough". And it should be very obvious that any article that has multiple notes in single paragraphs or even sentences are either grossly over-referenced or need to be rewritten. Peter Isotalo 18:02, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Maybe I can help clear up what I meant to convey... The citations requirement as it stands now is that references must be cited in the article. As a minimum, the references used must be listed in a == References == section which is normally at the end of the article. This should (not must) be enhanced with the appropriate use of inline citations. The lack of consensus is over whether the inline citations should be in the form of footnotes, journal style notes that refer to items in the References section, or even numbered links to external online references. It is up to the articles' editors to determine the appropriate amount and use of inline citations for each article. We have not come to an agreement on one specific type of inline citations (personally, I don't much like footnotes, but I don't use a lack of inlines or their presence as an objection), and the way things are going with nominations, I don't see that happening for a while yet. What we have all agreed is that aiding the verifiability of an article's facts is necessary. slambo 11:12, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
Both have its merits and demerits. I have a few suggestions: What if we combine the merits of both systems? Use inotes so that it doesn't break up the flow of the text, but at the same time Taxman can view the references. How this is done? By CSS: class="inote" for Peter and all of us it will be inote{display:none}
and for Taxman it will be *inote{display:all}
. So while we'll see nothing in normal mode, Taxman who'll have to modify monoboox.css, will see the following:
{{inote|Milton-Ch2-pg3}}
rendered as: text text text 103Milton-Ch2-pg3
– for books{{inote|http://www.google.com|4}}
rendered as: text text text 103
4
– for URL'swhat the rest of us will see:
=Nichalp «Talk»= 12:37, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
I don't know if any of you are keeping track of the fun and games with regards to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Terri Schiavo, but I thought we might try to come to some consensus before the article returns for another FA vote. In a nutshell, here is my major issue with the article: One of the people actively involved in the Terri Schiavo case, Gordon Watts ( User:GordonWattsDotCom and here's his personal webpage) is actively involved in the creation of the article and even nominated it for FAC last time. I am aware of the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest standards, and that a conflict of interest doesn't necesarily keep someone from contributing to an article. However, I feel uneasy about articles with such blatent conflict of interest becoming a FA, especially when the editor promoting the article for FAC is the one with the conflict. Does anyone else have concerns about this? Could the Wikipedia:What is a featured article be adjusted to reflect this, or is that going too far?-- Alabamaboy 02:17, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
I have added the following criteria, because the GNAA article failed solely on this issue:
If we are going to fail an FA solely on this criteria, then we should at least update this as a reason why an article may not make FA. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:16, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Dialogue between Bishonen and me pasted in as relevant to this page. Tony 09:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I could cope with the removal of the expansion to point 6 (what not to write at the top of a nomination), but I will argue strongly that the additional signpost in point 1, concerning the need to have nominations copy edited thoroughly beforehand, should stay. Substandard prose was becoming a serious problem in the nominations, and I think (although I'm not certain) that the problem has lessened since the recent expansion of point 1. Clearly, nominators either had a distorted sense of the standards that apply ('compelling, even brilliant' prose) or weren't reading the criteria.
As a contributor who has put a lot of time and effort into trying to raise the standards of prose in the nominations, I thought that something needed to be done. When I comment on poor prose in nominations, I feel I need either to roll my sleeves up and fix it myself, or quote several examples and pull them apart; it's a lot of work. That is why I acted, and no one has since complained. I wouldn't mind if the italic highlighting in point 1 were softened to roman. Tony 00:48, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
(Bishonen, thanks for your message; I've interpolated my responses into it:)
Tony, I appreciate your good intentions and the urgency that made you expand the instructions. But I do think it's bloat to add specifics on one aspect of one of the (many) criteria, right next to the link to the criteria themselves. Nominators need to either make very sure to click on that link, or else several other specially important points need to be mentioned up front (which I'm against, as creating more bloat). I'm pretty sure lack of references, for instance, is as frequent a problem as lack of copyediting.
Perhaps you might edit the criteria page further instead (I see you already did), to emphasize the need for copyediting?
Though I also stand by my remark about it looking condescending to tell everybody to go get somebody else to copyedit before nominating. Wouldn't you agree that there are articles that are good to go directly from the hands of the author/s/..?
My overriding concern is that the instructions be kept simple and practical. Following Bishonen's Law, they will naturally tend to be always growing, as people add their own special concerns over time, while hardly anybody ever removes anything. I know Raul654 agrees with me in general, in fact it's Raul's ruthless pruning that has kept the FAC instructions so nice and simple compared to those of Peer Review. It wasn't very long since you made the additions, so it's possible that no one complained because no one noticed yet; the longer the instructions are, the more cursorily they'll probably be read, that's the problem.
Tony 09:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Over at Wikipedia:Featured article review, I've begun a list of article types (e.g. albums, architectural styles, orders of chivalry) and their featured articles. The goal is to encourage the standardization of layout and formatting between articles on similar subjects. There's a lot of variation in featured articles, some of it for good reason, but a lot of it would be better off standardized. Is anybody here interested in working on this? Tuf-Kat 18:16, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
In many of "Today's featured articles", (e.g. Planetary habitability) the font size in the notes and references is reduced. I generally consider featured articles as "best practices" and therefore would go along with the reduced font size in notes and references. But, is this practice specified somewhere in the Manual of style or in some other guideline? Thanks. -- Aude ( talk | contribs) 16:42, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I replaced one of the succinct words with concise, just because I found it odd to have such an unusual, but clever, word used twice. Deckiller 04:15, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Under 2b we learn that a featured article must be ""comprehensive" means that an article covers the topic in its entirety, and does not neglect any major facts or details." However, many articles on historical subjects have been passed without having a historiography section. Given that disciplinary history demands a historiographical consciousness, yet does not resolve to distinct "empirical" demonstrations as the sciences claim, an encyclopedic entry on a historical subject must discuss historiography in order to be featured. For an example of a pro-forma of what a historiography section should look like see History of the world or Katyn massacre. I would appreciate others comments on whether this should be considered a requirement for articles on historical subjects to be featured. Fifelfoo 23:12, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I've decided to raise this issue, along with the more general issues of what we should expect in a History article, on Manual Of Style's talk page. [1], can I sugest moving this conversation there to centralise efforts. -- Barberio 11:03, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to announce the opening of the Featured Music Project, an attempt to encourage and facilitate successful featured article candidacies and peer reviews for articles on musicians and bands. You can help by evaluating articles, or by working on the articles that are already close to being ready for FAC. Tuf-Kat 19:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
University of Arkansas, in the version nominated for FA, contained a "History and Founding" section consisting entirely of three paragraphs copied almost verbatim from this page on the University of Arkansas website.
Should What is a featured article say explicitly that featured articles ought not to contain copyright violations?
I'm not sure whether or not I'm joking. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:20, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Matt Yeager removed the links to User:Taxman/Featured article advice and User:Jengod/Some common objections to featured status and how to avoid them, saying "userspace links are inappropriate from Wikipedia articles". Clearly links to userspace from actual articles would be inappropriate, but surely we can have links to useful information in userspace in wikispace, no? Quite a few things in wikispace started off in userspace... -- ALoan (Talk) 10:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with ALoan on this point. However, I implore the main contributors to both of those pages to have them edited. They should be written in nothing less than excellent prose, and bloopers such as "editors that aren't aware" should be fixed promptly. Otherwise, it makes nonsense of the whole idea of FAs. Both pages require a careful run through by a good editor. Tony 12:25, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Taxman, sorry to have been silent; I'll have a go at that text early March, when I'm freer from work obligations. Tony 22:38, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree entirely with the sentiment, but perhaps there should be discussion here before a substantive change is made to the criteria. (The wording is not entirely clear, either.) Tony 22:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Taxman's right: of course the stubby para problem is irritating to reviewers, but so are other aspects of poor prose that occur just as frequently. Criterion 2a says it all and says nothing at the same time, which is the most practical solution. Spin-off pages are a good idea, given that the official criteria need to ration detail severely to retain their impact and simplicity.
A related issue is that greater levels of detail are likely to be less universally agreed on than the basics. Tony 07:32, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
We should require use of the new cite format. It solves the problem of citations gravitating from their refrence point. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:47, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to invite everyone to participate in the Wikipedia:Featured Music Project. The Featured Music Project is an attempt to improve a large number of articles on musicians to make them ready to be a featured article. To sign up, put your name under one (or more) of the eight categories on the status page, such as the discography, format and style or lead section. No more than once a month, you'd be given an article which is getting close to being ready for WP:FAC, and is only deficient in a few categories. You'd do what you can in the section you signed up for (and, of course, anything else you like). If a couple of people specialize in each category, we should be able to take some concrete steps towards improvement on a wide range of articles. In addition, you can sign up as a "shepherd" to take articles that meet all the criteria through a peer review and (hopefully) successful candidacy. If you have any questions, feel free to leave me a note on my talk page, or on the FMP talk page. Tuf-Kat 06:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Archive 1 | Archive 2 | Archive 3 | Archive 4 | Archive 5 | → | Archive 10 |
Refactored to archives on 19:29, 24 March 2006 (UTC)
I wonder, shouldn't there be a (informal) criterion that featured article should contain no red links? I haven't noticed that some would have, until Caesar cipher, which has red link to pattern word. Samohyl Jan 18:58, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)
What is the appropriate way to deal with references to other wikipedia content? Wikipedia:Cite sources suggests not including them in a references section. Fair enough; the original references will be in other wikipedia articles, which we can follow links to see. But this raises the possibility of an article with no references section at all that is actually soundly referenced. The easiest way for that to happen is to write a monster article, full of detailed references, then have it split according to Wikipedia:Summary style so that everything in the article is then a summary of some other wikipedia article, which contains all the references.
This hasn't happened yet, exactly, but I was editing carbon and removed the only entry under "References" because replaced the only place it was used with information from material properties of diamond. (Of course, carbon should have loads of references, but that's beside the point for now...) -- Andrew 04:11, Apr 13, 2005 (UTC)
I think ALoan is right. But it's true that (especially for print references) we should be more willing to trust well-referenced Wikipedia articles than random unsupported claims. What I mean is, I think it's okay, although not ideal, to simply plunder another wikipedia article for facts; ideally, one would go check the references. Only if this is done should the refs be added to the article's refs section. This will be more easily done if one records which wikipedia article the refs come from. What I've been doing with all my refs is putting an abbreviated specific reference in comments (like <!--[[Material properties of diamond]]--> or <!--http://www.scuba-doc.com/HPNS.html-->) and then (if it's not a Wikipedia article) listing the detailed ref in the References section. --~~~~
Should it be a guideline that a Featured Article should attempt to include as many links as possible to other languages? I've been using aka's marvellous search tool to add these to as many Featured Article Candidates as possible, and if I have time I might start on some existing FAs. It only really works for proper names, so we couldn't make this a hard and fast rule - people can't be expected to translate an article title into 93 different languages - but where it's easy to check what exists, I think this should be encouraged. -- 194.73.130.132 15:35, 22 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I am hoping on nominating music of the United States soon. Having recently used the Titan (moon) system of referencing, I'd like to get some input from the FAC crowd (since PR is inappropriate for this case). See the References section, with quotes from the sources. I think this is very useful and interesting, but is making the references section very long. If the entire article is done like this, it will be way over 32k. Should I remove the quotes but otherwise keep the referencing the way it is? Or does page size not matter in this case? Do you like the sound sample download format (e.g. at Music of the United States#Native American music)? Or does that seem to obtrusive? Tuf-Kat 17:04, Apr 23, 2005 (UTC)
Is their a general rule for the status of fictional articles with regards to their eligability (or lack there of) of becoming featured articles? I cannot seem to find anything regarding the subject. TomStar81 08:35, 30 Apr 2005 (UTC)
I'm talking about 'an article which covers a topic in fiction', like the kinds of examples Raul654 named. The reason I brought I up is because some of the articles related to the Gundam Universe (which is an entirely fictional universe) have been refined enough to meet the needed criteria for featured article status, but the only featured articles I see are those that come from the actual real world. I know that fair use images do not qualify for featured picture status, but I was unclear on whether or not fictional articles were similarly disqualified. TomStar81 23:29, 1 May 2005 (UTC)
I for one think the changes are great, and make the criteria simpler and more concise. However, now the section on images is gone and the only leftover part says you don't really need images. I think that is misleading since in practice every article that does not have an image is objected to multiple times. The only ones that make it through without one are conceptual articles where an actual image is difficult or impossible. I think the criteria should reflct some clarity around this issue. - [ this was User:Taxman ] 12:01, May 11, 2005 (UTC)
Thank you for your comments. I came across two conflicting sentences while editing:
I left things as they were to avoid controversy, and assumed that images were not a prerequsite for FA status. I would be happy to re-word the paragraph to reflect your comments.
If pictures were required, would it be okay if I removed the following sentence: "however, even if the subject does not have any obvious images associated with it, a suggested picture which could be used to represent it on the Main Page (it can be an abstract symbol that would be too generic for the article itself) is helpful."
=mrcleanup= 13:33, 11 May 2005 (UTC)
Looks good. :) -- mav 01:16, 18 May 2005 (UTC)
Whoa - this series of edits almost slipped by me. I only checked the diff for the last one, not realizing there were a bunch more. Anyway, from what I can see, it looks good. →Raul654 01:33, May 18, 2005 (UTC)
At the danger of getting the wrong answer, I think we need to discuss whether inline citations are simply desirable in a featured article, or mandatory. The absence of inline citations has been coming up as an objection on WP:FAC very frequently in recent weeks, principally by mav. I know he has the highest of motives, but, to my mind, at least, that objection is not supported by the current criteria: Wikipedia:What is a featured article currently says that a featured article should be "enhanced by the appropriate use of inline citations", not "must contain inline citations".
There seems to be a slippery slope - the same slippery slope that made the criterion for references go from "when and where appropriate" to required, see above - that will require any featured articles to look like an academic treatise, not an encyclopedia article. I am not objecting to the requirement to provide sources to justify the broad content of an article, nor indeed to provide specific inline citations (whether using {{ inote}} or otherwise) to support an specific surprising, contentious or debateable point, but I think requiring inline citations as a matter of course is simply overkill. -- ALoan (Talk) 20:43, 19 May 2005 (UTC)
Note that due to the amount of work required to add inline cites retroactively, I very strongly oppose this requirement to be retroactive on FAs that were nominated before this was a requirement. I do, however, think that a lack of a populated ==References== section is a reasonable thing to add to a FARC nomination (but that should not be the only reason). Adding such a section to an older article is not nearly as difficult as adding inline cites to such an article. -- mav 14:18, 20 May 2005 (UTC)
Following the move of Wikipedia:What is a featured list to Wikipedia:What is a featured list?, should this also move to Wikipedia:What is a featured article? (that is, shouldn't the article's name end in a question mark?) -- ALoan (Talk) 13:29, 15 Jun 2005 (UTC)
No no, I don't like this idea one bit. Not only does it strike me as pedantic, but (a) tons of pages already link here and (b) it makes the article harder to find. →Raul654 14:41, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
As was suggested above, if we were going to move it (and I'm still not fond of the idea) Wikipedia:featured article criteria would be the place to put it. →Raul654 16:50, Jun 15, 2005 (UTC)
I know that it is listed as a step in "The Path to a Featured Article" infobox, but I have been noticing more and more often that articles seem to be nominated for FA without even bothering to go through the peer review process. Or they get impatient after about a week of PR and jump it over to FAC. Perhaps there should be a rule that any article is firmly required, without exception, to go through peer review for the full month period that PR remains active before being allowed to be a FAC. Should that apply also to repeat bids? (I think so - I can't see how it can hurt to give an article more time and outside help.) Even if there are good articles that get through to FA without PR, I find it hard to believe that the process can be a significant impediment to any article. As it is, aren't we getting too many featured articles passed per month anyway? Not to say that's a bad thing at all, but clearly there is a backlog, so should anyone object that a new rule of this sort would lower the number of promoted articles, the answer seems to be that that doesn't appear to necessarily be a bad thing in the short term - some of those older promoted ones waiting in the wings and getting dusty can finally see the Main Page! Anyway, just my musings... What do you all think? -- Girolamo Savonarola July 2, 2005 02:34 (UTC)
If you recommend an article should be sent to Peer Review, you should be active on Peer Review -- PopUpPirate 01:34, 25 February 2006 (UTC)
Please take a look. -- MarSch 10:42, 16 July 2005 (UTC)
Raul, can we list the acceptable image copyrights on here for Requirement Five, for future reference? There is still a problem about fair use images at FAC. Zscout370 (Sound Off) 21:53, 18 July 2005 (UTC)
I'd like to change
to
Is there any reason to set the bar lower? - Fredrik | talk 12:00, 13 August 2005 (UTC)
Perhaps we might want to explicitly put the "...is well-documented; reputable sources are cited, especially those which are the most accessible and up-to-date." part of Wikipedia:The perfect article here; I see that this is a criticism that often arises in candidacies, and I reckon that it isn't obvious for people who are not accustomed to scientific article,s for instance. Rama 07:14, 17 August 2005 (UTC)
Sorry, My point was mostly emphasised like this: "...is well-documented; reputable sources are cited, especially those which are the most accessible and up-to-date." I worry much more about people not giving any source, than people ginving sources of questionable value. Rama 20:33, 29 August 2005 (UTC)
There's obviously a clash of opinions when it comes to the following sentence:
For one thing, the widespread notion that "inline citation" means "footnote" is a problem. That this sentence is cited by those who feel that inline citations should be mandatory is an even bigger problem. Most FAC subjects should be comprehensive and general enough to require inline citations, but that does not mean it applies to all candidates equally. Personally, I feel the current wording is ambiguous for a reason and should stay that way. Just like too many images or a bad sub-section hierarchy will spoil an article, so will a pointless sprinkling of cosmetic footnotes. A very good example of this is names of the Greeks.
I think all objections that call for more referencing without proper justification should be disregarded, especially when made with nonsense claims that, for example, all historical facts need specific references. Blanket statements like this is about as merited as "it's not interesting enough". And it should be very obvious that any article that has multiple notes in single paragraphs or even sentences are either grossly over-referenced or need to be rewritten. Peter Isotalo 18:02, 31 August 2005 (UTC)
Maybe I can help clear up what I meant to convey... The citations requirement as it stands now is that references must be cited in the article. As a minimum, the references used must be listed in a == References == section which is normally at the end of the article. This should (not must) be enhanced with the appropriate use of inline citations. The lack of consensus is over whether the inline citations should be in the form of footnotes, journal style notes that refer to items in the References section, or even numbered links to external online references. It is up to the articles' editors to determine the appropriate amount and use of inline citations for each article. We have not come to an agreement on one specific type of inline citations (personally, I don't much like footnotes, but I don't use a lack of inlines or their presence as an objection), and the way things are going with nominations, I don't see that happening for a while yet. What we have all agreed is that aiding the verifiability of an article's facts is necessary. slambo 11:12, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
Both have its merits and demerits. I have a few suggestions: What if we combine the merits of both systems? Use inotes so that it doesn't break up the flow of the text, but at the same time Taxman can view the references. How this is done? By CSS: class="inote" for Peter and all of us it will be inote{display:none}
and for Taxman it will be *inote{display:all}
. So while we'll see nothing in normal mode, Taxman who'll have to modify monoboox.css, will see the following:
{{inote|Milton-Ch2-pg3}}
rendered as: text text text 103Milton-Ch2-pg3
– for books{{inote|http://www.google.com|4}}
rendered as: text text text 103
4
– for URL'swhat the rest of us will see:
=Nichalp «Talk»= 12:37, September 1, 2005 (UTC)
I don't know if any of you are keeping track of the fun and games with regards to Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Terri Schiavo, but I thought we might try to come to some consensus before the article returns for another FA vote. In a nutshell, here is my major issue with the article: One of the people actively involved in the Terri Schiavo case, Gordon Watts ( User:GordonWattsDotCom and here's his personal webpage) is actively involved in the creation of the article and even nominated it for FAC last time. I am aware of the Wikipedia:Conflict of interest standards, and that a conflict of interest doesn't necesarily keep someone from contributing to an article. However, I feel uneasy about articles with such blatent conflict of interest becoming a FA, especially when the editor promoting the article for FAC is the one with the conflict. Does anyone else have concerns about this? Could the Wikipedia:What is a featured article be adjusted to reflect this, or is that going too far?-- Alabamaboy 02:17, 4 September 2005 (UTC)
I have added the following criteria, because the GNAA article failed solely on this issue:
If we are going to fail an FA solely on this criteria, then we should at least update this as a reason why an article may not make FA. - Ta bu shi da yu 03:16, 11 September 2005 (UTC)
Dialogue between Bishonen and me pasted in as relevant to this page. Tony 09:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
I could cope with the removal of the expansion to point 6 (what not to write at the top of a nomination), but I will argue strongly that the additional signpost in point 1, concerning the need to have nominations copy edited thoroughly beforehand, should stay. Substandard prose was becoming a serious problem in the nominations, and I think (although I'm not certain) that the problem has lessened since the recent expansion of point 1. Clearly, nominators either had a distorted sense of the standards that apply ('compelling, even brilliant' prose) or weren't reading the criteria.
As a contributor who has put a lot of time and effort into trying to raise the standards of prose in the nominations, I thought that something needed to be done. When I comment on poor prose in nominations, I feel I need either to roll my sleeves up and fix it myself, or quote several examples and pull them apart; it's a lot of work. That is why I acted, and no one has since complained. I wouldn't mind if the italic highlighting in point 1 were softened to roman. Tony 00:48, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
(Bishonen, thanks for your message; I've interpolated my responses into it:)
Tony, I appreciate your good intentions and the urgency that made you expand the instructions. But I do think it's bloat to add specifics on one aspect of one of the (many) criteria, right next to the link to the criteria themselves. Nominators need to either make very sure to click on that link, or else several other specially important points need to be mentioned up front (which I'm against, as creating more bloat). I'm pretty sure lack of references, for instance, is as frequent a problem as lack of copyediting.
Perhaps you might edit the criteria page further instead (I see you already did), to emphasize the need for copyediting?
Though I also stand by my remark about it looking condescending to tell everybody to go get somebody else to copyedit before nominating. Wouldn't you agree that there are articles that are good to go directly from the hands of the author/s/..?
My overriding concern is that the instructions be kept simple and practical. Following Bishonen's Law, they will naturally tend to be always growing, as people add their own special concerns over time, while hardly anybody ever removes anything. I know Raul654 agrees with me in general, in fact it's Raul's ruthless pruning that has kept the FAC instructions so nice and simple compared to those of Peer Review. It wasn't very long since you made the additions, so it's possible that no one complained because no one noticed yet; the longer the instructions are, the more cursorily they'll probably be read, that's the problem.
Tony 09:39, 23 September 2005 (UTC)
Over at Wikipedia:Featured article review, I've begun a list of article types (e.g. albums, architectural styles, orders of chivalry) and their featured articles. The goal is to encourage the standardization of layout and formatting between articles on similar subjects. There's a lot of variation in featured articles, some of it for good reason, but a lot of it would be better off standardized. Is anybody here interested in working on this? Tuf-Kat 18:16, 25 November 2005 (UTC)
In many of "Today's featured articles", (e.g. Planetary habitability) the font size in the notes and references is reduced. I generally consider featured articles as "best practices" and therefore would go along with the reduced font size in notes and references. But, is this practice specified somewhere in the Manual of style or in some other guideline? Thanks. -- Aude ( talk | contribs) 16:42, 23 January 2006 (UTC)
I replaced one of the succinct words with concise, just because I found it odd to have such an unusual, but clever, word used twice. Deckiller 04:15, 28 January 2006 (UTC)
Under 2b we learn that a featured article must be ""comprehensive" means that an article covers the topic in its entirety, and does not neglect any major facts or details." However, many articles on historical subjects have been passed without having a historiography section. Given that disciplinary history demands a historiographical consciousness, yet does not resolve to distinct "empirical" demonstrations as the sciences claim, an encyclopedic entry on a historical subject must discuss historiography in order to be featured. For an example of a pro-forma of what a historiography section should look like see History of the world or Katyn massacre. I would appreciate others comments on whether this should be considered a requirement for articles on historical subjects to be featured. Fifelfoo 23:12, 30 January 2006 (UTC)
I've decided to raise this issue, along with the more general issues of what we should expect in a History article, on Manual Of Style's talk page. [1], can I sugest moving this conversation there to centralise efforts. -- Barberio 11:03, 19 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to announce the opening of the Featured Music Project, an attempt to encourage and facilitate successful featured article candidacies and peer reviews for articles on musicians and bands. You can help by evaluating articles, or by working on the articles that are already close to being ready for FAC. Tuf-Kat 19:29, 3 February 2006 (UTC)
University of Arkansas, in the version nominated for FA, contained a "History and Founding" section consisting entirely of three paragraphs copied almost verbatim from this page on the University of Arkansas website.
Should What is a featured article say explicitly that featured articles ought not to contain copyright violations?
I'm not sure whether or not I'm joking. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:20, 5 February 2006 (UTC)
Matt Yeager removed the links to User:Taxman/Featured article advice and User:Jengod/Some common objections to featured status and how to avoid them, saying "userspace links are inappropriate from Wikipedia articles". Clearly links to userspace from actual articles would be inappropriate, but surely we can have links to useful information in userspace in wikispace, no? Quite a few things in wikispace started off in userspace... -- ALoan (Talk) 10:51, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree with ALoan on this point. However, I implore the main contributors to both of those pages to have them edited. They should be written in nothing less than excellent prose, and bloopers such as "editors that aren't aware" should be fixed promptly. Otherwise, it makes nonsense of the whole idea of FAs. Both pages require a careful run through by a good editor. Tony 12:25, 10 February 2006 (UTC)
Taxman, sorry to have been silent; I'll have a go at that text early March, when I'm freer from work obligations. Tony 22:38, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
I agree entirely with the sentiment, but perhaps there should be discussion here before a substantive change is made to the criteria. (The wording is not entirely clear, either.) Tony 22:37, 14 February 2006 (UTC)
Taxman's right: of course the stubby para problem is irritating to reviewers, but so are other aspects of poor prose that occur just as frequently. Criterion 2a says it all and says nothing at the same time, which is the most practical solution. Spin-off pages are a good idea, given that the official criteria need to ration detail severely to retain their impact and simplicity.
A related issue is that greater levels of detail are likely to be less universally agreed on than the basics. Tony 07:32, 15 February 2006 (UTC)
We should require use of the new cite format. It solves the problem of citations gravitating from their refrence point. Hipocrite - «Talk» 14:47, 17 February 2006 (UTC)
I'd like to invite everyone to participate in the Wikipedia:Featured Music Project. The Featured Music Project is an attempt to improve a large number of articles on musicians to make them ready to be a featured article. To sign up, put your name under one (or more) of the eight categories on the status page, such as the discography, format and style or lead section. No more than once a month, you'd be given an article which is getting close to being ready for WP:FAC, and is only deficient in a few categories. You'd do what you can in the section you signed up for (and, of course, anything else you like). If a couple of people specialize in each category, we should be able to take some concrete steps towards improvement on a wide range of articles. In addition, you can sign up as a "shepherd" to take articles that meet all the criteria through a peer review and (hopefully) successful candidacy. If you have any questions, feel free to leave me a note on my talk page, or on the FMP talk page. Tuf-Kat 06:22, 26 February 2006 (UTC)