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Is there any requirement that the external links be in a particular order? Some articles have the links alphabetized, while others seem to be organized based on when they were added. Tkrpata 22:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
How welcome are wikitravel links on wikipedia articles?-- 202.164.137.59 15:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
My link to youtube.com in a footnote was deleted, apparently because someone posted on WP:EL that "knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States." I was going to challenge the deletion of my footnote by realized that I can't because the WP:EL IS NOT FOOTNOTED and is locked from being edited. Wikipedia cannot base its policy on statements lacking a cited source of information. I work hard to cite all my sources of information and to find one of them deleted because of some un-sourced, over exaggerated, and mostly untrue statement leaves me shaking my head. The source of the WP:EL sentence "knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States" citation needed needs to be cited so that I can show you several reasons why this statement is wrong. -- Jreferee 18:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if we don't need to cover Wikis. For a long time, I gave them a pass without really looking-- they were wikis after all. But if you do look, many of them turn out to be written by one or two editors, and they are frequently linked to when they contain at best a handful of articles. Some also are used essentially as forums. Seems to me many belong in the same category as blogs, forums, et al.
While on the subject, I recently had a run-in with an editor who took "Links to forums, [...] unless mandated by the article itself" to mean "was really really important to some readers of the article". I think what is meant is "the article is actually about the blog/forum/etc. (as stated under Proposed_re-organisation, above, by Bravada, talk - 23:11, 11 October 2006). Can we get agreement on this, and change the policy accordingly? -- Mwanner | Talk 18:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Any objections to replacing the current youtube specific wording with this...
-- Barberio 18:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
All,
Antonrojo was very helpful in explaining why an external link that I added was removed from the following topics:
Web conferencing
Streaming media
Webcast
Podcast
I added FindWebEvents.com as a link, hoping that it would extend the encyclopedia and add value to users who were looking for the above topics. FindWebEvents.com is a new search engine which focuses on web events.
I understand that external links should be used sparingly, but added this link hoping it would add value to the overall topics. During the short time the links were included on the above topics, the usage of FindWebEvents.com was fantastic. People were truly looking for specific web events, podcasts, webcasts, etc. coming straight from the Wiki topics. This confirmed to me that users are looking for information on specific topics, and they found value in the search engine to help them find this information more quickly and accurately.
I'd like to ask for everyone's feedback on adding the external link FindWebEvents.com on the above 4 topics.
I truly believe this link adds value and most definitely extends the current Wiki encyclopedia. If I can help answer any questions, please let me know!
Thanks for everyone's time and feedback,
Curtis
Streamlogic 18:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
The rewrite of the guideline appears to have reached a level of stability now, so can people please look it over, and make any comments/changes they think are needed. The rewritten guideline itself is at Wikipedia:External links/workshop, and is open for editing.
If you have no changes or objections, can you drop a note here to show you support this as the new guideline. (Alternatively, if you have a major objection to the rewrite not correctable by a simple edit, note it here.) -- Barberio 13:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
If a mention of "fansites" is necessary, what would you propose? If the term "fansite" is used, it should be be defined for the purposes of WP policy - is it any unofficial site, or is it a site that maintains a "fan" point of view? Throwing wikis in the list with blogs and forums would be a huge change, and would impact many links - if you want to propose that, I'd make the proposal well known in the many places where wikis are linked. -- Milo H Minderbinder 15:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I've just read over it and done some edits, and as it stands now I would support it as the new external links guide. BTW, I removed video sharing sites from links normally to be avoided. See Michael J. Fox for an example. It links to the recent political ad on YouTube. Per the proposed policy this would not be allowed because it is not technically the exact subject of the article, nor an official link. - Mike | Talk 23:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd just like to make a personal thank you to all those who involved themselves in the rewrite. Good to see that Co-operative editing does work. -- Barberio 16:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi everybody, I disagree with #7 "Links to (...) discussion forums" . In Red Digital Cinema Camera Company, we have links to discussion forums where half of the employees of the company (the subject matter) actually spent lots of time on and discusses the future of development and asks the community about the inclusion of certain product features. WP:EL was used by some people as a reason to remove these very valuable links, without actually realizing their importance. I'm removing the "discussion form" part, anybody disagree? Peter S. 13:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
This guideline needs to address linking to pages in sister wiki projects like WikiSource, WikiCommons, etc. And throw in WikiTravel while you're at it :) i.e. what templates are useful, what pages should be linked to, should they go at the top of the list or the bottom, etc. Kaldari 01:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
In a lot of cases bands or musicians use MySpace either as their primary official site or at least as an important secondary. So why are these links not acceptable? Shouldn't the rule of thumb be that the MySpace/friend networking links are unacceptable unless pertaining to a musical act/band?
Discussion moved from Wikipedia talk:External links/workshop
I added wikis to the forum/blog/etc entry under "Links normally to avoid" on the grounds that wikis are inherently unstable. User:Milo H Minderbinder has objected on the grounds that this is a major change, and asks for a discussion on this page. I feel that since we have been saying for some time that we should avoid any "page that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research", and since wikis, especially one-author wikis, are certainly subject to these problems, that this is not truly a change.
The floor is open... -- Mwanner | Talk 00:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I could see a general Star Trek article, like Star Trek, pointing to the Memory Alpha page in the See also section. But if I were editing a page like, for example, Q (Star Trek), and someone put Memory Alpha in the See also section, I would remove it as only tangentially-related. Rather, I think it's much more useful to do it the way it is done in Q (Star Trek) (and other pages): using the memoryalpha template, which provides a direct external link to the MA page as well as a wikilink to the MA article.
Re: why do we prohibit blogs (and wikis)? The concern, I think, is generally cutting out opinion and unverifiable assertions that aren't helpful to an encyclopedia. Looking at our own proposed guideline here, it says external links can improve the article with "information that can't or shouldn't be added to the article"; also we are to be concerned with accessibility, functionality, and proper-ness ("useful, tasteful, informative, factual, etc.") Finally, looking at "What should be linked to" as it currently stands, I think blogs/wikis/etc. could fall under #4: "Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article". Obviously, many(/most) blogs would be culled for failing for not being sufficiently useful, tasteful, meaningful, or relevant. The inclusion of the blogs/MySpace/etc. line in the "Links normally to be avoided" section does not function as a ban, it functions as a general rule of thumb. We could take it out of the guideline and it would still be easily defensible to remove inappropriate blog links from articles' external links sections. I would probably prefer removing that line altogether, but I do see that it is a useful rule of thumb. The point is that it's not an all-out prohibition; wikis like Memory Alpha should still be allowed to be linked to because it contains "meaningful, relevant content" and is most likely "neutral and accurate material". Of course, where does the burden lie for proving that it's neutral and accurate? I don't know; there's also discussion at WP:RS, but of course that concerns sources, not external links. Obviously there could arise disputes about what qualifies as neutral/accurate/tasteful/etc. but I think that should be left to the editors to decide.
Sorry that was so long, and I hope it's somewhat coherent; generally, I agree with Barberio, I think it's already covered by the guideline and there's no need to include wikis. But then again, I think it is just as reasonable to remove blogs/MySpaces/etc. too. Schi 23:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Over in video games, it is often useful to link to a wiki related to a game so that users can get information they want that isn't encyclopedic (such as cheat codes, game mission info, mechanics) and often these wikis will link to further fansites which don't warrant being included (but so many people have their own pet fansite they want included which). I very much like the provido against linking to your own site, but a stable wiki is not often available when a game comes out - but a rapidly growing wiki with a lot of information is. I don't think wikipedia is the right place for game walkthroughs, tips, fansite links and cheatcodes, but external wikis are a great place for all of this information to go - releaving some of the pressure here made by users (anon and registered) and increasing the relative usefulness of the wikipedia article. Robovski 04:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, sounds like we're close to consensus-- pull blogs out of the MySpace/forum entry and add a new entry covering blogs and wikis? Something like
OK, to keep this from going on forever, I have changed the page as follows: pulled blogs out of the MySpace/forum entry, and added two new lines reading:
Revert or tinker further if you feel you must. Thanks for all the input. -- Mwanner | Talk 15:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey folks, I was wondering if I could get your feedback on an appropriate upper bound of links for an article to have. Animal rights has a considerable number that seems a touch unnecessary. Is there any policy on reducing the amount of links in an article? -- Brad Beattie (talk) 08:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, so now that we've cracked the door open for blogs, can someone provide some insight on how to determine which ones are "written by a recognized authority"? First case I have run into is at Branson, Missouri, a couple of links added to thedailyphosdex.blogdrive.com. I really don't follow blogs at all. TIA, -- Mwanner | Talk 19:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
A good reference for this is probably Wikipedia:Reliable sources, which is a good read overall. Specifically check out Evaluating reliability ("Neither online nor print sources deserve an automatic assumption of reliability by virtue of the medium they are printed in. All reports must be evaluated according to the processes and people that created them."), and Self-published sources. Note that since the article is about reliable sources (and external links aren't necessarily used as sources), it doesn't all apply, but I think it's a useful comparison. One distinction I would make with blogs is whether they are self published or published by a newspaper (especially if the bloggers are regular reporters and not someone just doing a blog) [ [3]]. The branson article seemed like pretty blatant off-topic self promotion so I deleted the offending bits. -- Milo H Minderbinder 20:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that in the section titled: Links normally to be avoided you include:
This is the first time that I can think of where factually inaccurate material has been discussed in such a explicitly negative way in a guideline. While I approve of this statement, I am concerned that it contradicts WP:NPOV... I could also see all sorts of arguments popping up as to whether the facts on a particular link are accurate or not. How does one determine if the facts are inaccurate when there is a dispute? Also note that this is not really discussed at WP:RS (although it should be). Blueboar 19:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I think points of view about the September 11 attacks are a bad example. Based on what I heard from someone who visited Egypt, what most people in Western civilisation would consider a "conspiracy theory" is the dominant view in Egypt. I suspect it is also the dominant view in Muslim countries in general. However, I don't know Arabic, so I would probably have trouble proving it. My point is, that area of Wikipedia probably suffers from systemic bias. Armedblowfish ( talk| mail) 00:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I might add that on Google Maps, there is a warning (in comments) " ATTENTION! DO NOT ADD LINKS WITHOUT DISCUSSION ON THE TALK PAGE. THEY WILL BE REMOVED." This is enforced, and I think is helpful in keeping the link section in check. If consensus on the talk page says okay, then the link can be added. Harsh as it may sound, this strategy is used on the main September 11, 2001 attacks page and it works. On most pages, such explicit warnings may not be needed, but maybe the guideline needs to mention something about consensus for adding links. After official websites, I think consensus is the next important criteria. -- Aude ( talk) 00:03, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted to say I think you did a great job on the re-write. The guideline is much clearer, much easier to follow, and better presented. Thank you all for your hard work. -- Siobhan Hansa 20:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I've been watching the changes and was worried a few times but the guideline is really starting to come together. Nice work.-- I already forgot 03:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Another article I'm currently working on, Gun violence in the United States, I am VERY hesitant to even include ANY external links. Anything pertinent is included as a reference. Once an external links section is added, it's vulnerable to POV linkspam (see Gun politics in the United States#External links). I wonder if including zero links is okay? I'd rather not open a can of worms for links. I can think of one or two "official" government links [4] [5] to include if we must include an External links section. But these also are included in some way or another as references. Thoughts? -- Aude ( talk) 20:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Per this announcement Open Directory Project seems to be having some ongoing technical problems. In light of that, should the recommendation to link to it be removed, at least temporarily? Little Miss Might Be Wrong 23:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I see many changes over the last few days, but see no discussion about these changes. I have reverted to previous consensus version. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted three of the last four changes:
Until recently, the section "Links normally to be avoided" included the exception "A site that requires registration or a subscription should not be linked unless it is being used as a source". For clarity on sourcing, should not that exception be carried forward to the new "Sites requiring registration" section? -- CliffC 17:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I saw an interesting Edit summary just now: "rm linkspam, sites solicit financial contributions" (at Arctic Refuge drilling controversy). I'm kind of sympathetic-- I see lots of links added to pages that, among other things, seek contributions. Generally I just judge the site on the usefulness of its content, ignoring the funds pitch (though if the site is borderline useful, I tend to count the pitch against it).
Of course, one could look at fundraising on a site as the equivalent of direct retail sales, the major red flag for me. So, should we mention fundraising? If so, as a major bar to inclusion, or a minor one? -- Mwanner | Talk 21:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
At the University of Mary Washington article, Analyzethis ( talk · contribs) insists on adding a link to a website he runs [6]. Several other users keep removing this as linkspam but he keeps adding the link back, insisting it's vital to the UMW community. Can we have an outside view on this conflict? Metros232 20:58, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
What is the purpose of including external links? I don't see anything in the policy explaining why external links should be included at all. I mean... it's kind of obvious, but I thought that stating the purpose could decrease the edit wars. - Freekee 20:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I discovered a great website/portal about all things African (knowingafrica.com) that I wanted to add to the Africa, but after adding it today, it has subsequently been removed. I would like to understand this better and challenge the rationale for having it removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.55.223 ( talk • contribs) 03:25, November 20, 2006
I am just bringing to everyone's attention that there is a citation in the policy, but there is no instance of <references/>. A footnotes section should probably be added (or the citation removed). – Heav e n's Wrath Talk 05:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I was looking at the text which begins "A website that you own or maintain, even if the guidelines otherwise...". I can see a problem with this. This is all very well for the small site where someone wants to promote it. But how about, for example, a big company which has a tie-in cross product web site: official but secondary, relating to perhaps dozens of articles. They can post this and the person can say "I don't own or maintain this site. I don't even work for the company that made the products, nor the one that created the site: I work for the marketing company they hired". I'd like to suggest an investigation of whether this form of words could be made more all-inclusive; or indeed whether adding such links is a valuable service to Wikipedia readers and shouldn't be stopped; or whether existing policies are adequate. Notinasnaid 11:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I would like more information about this policy. Most websites these days include a blog component, as it's the thing to do. However, does that mean that a website that includes a blog IS a blog for the purposes of this policy? In other words, say you have a content management website with longer articles and also some blog entries. Is this automatically exluded because of the blog component? Some article editors seem to think so.
I need to verify some further clarification here. From what I have read in EL, RS, and V, nothing has changed about self-published sources (such as blog posts) being acceptable as primary sources for statements made by the subject of the article, as long as authorship is not in dispute. Several other editors seem to be under the impression that this single exception to "no self-published sources" has also been thrown out. Can someone please clarify that this particular exception to the rule is still in effect? Crockspot 21:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
It's been my understanding for a while that we don't link to websites of song lyrics because they keep those lyrics posted in violation of copyright. I don't see anything in this guideline that directly addresses this question, so I thought I'd ask here. Is it legit to link to lyrics sites, such as Beatles Music Lyrics? - GTBacchus( talk) 19:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
But Rey, no one, not me, not any living person whatsoever... is stating that we should use sites which can be shown to be in violation. The objection is the assumption that a site is in violation, simply because they are silent on the issue. Your example is not this case, it's a red herring to misdirect the argument. If web content does not explicitely mention, or hyper-mention that there's a copyright issue, then assuming there is one, is not the position that wikieditors should take. Rather we should assume there isn't one, until there is evidence that there is one. Wjhonson 18:29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Further reading redirects to here. An invitation to further reading of a physical book isn't an external link. Last time I read these MoS entries there was a distinction made between the two, and the consensus at the time was to have external links and other media in a section called "Further reading". Has this policy been reverted or was I reading another contradictory policy elsewhere? -- Monotonehell 06:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
There is no absolute prohibition in linking to sites you maintain, etc.--WP:V clearly delineates the self-publishing exceptions. WP:EL is a guideline, and as a guideline should not contradict policy. If you want to go into detail on discouraging self-publishing external links, that should go in "links normally to avoid." Cindery 22:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I couldn't agree more that self-published links should almost always be avoided, and that strong encouragement to avoid them should be in EL guideline. But, they aren't actually prohibited, and there are some very good exceptions--and stating that they are affects...YouTube. For example, the primary way for a YT self-publisher to affirm GDFL and copyright permission is to publish the link him or herself on Wiki. Instead of going into detail re YouTube, it would be better to move self-published links from restrictions to "links normally to be avoided." Any self-published link of any variety can be objected to by any editor under WP:AUTO and COI, as well as all other policies and guidelines. If you want to spearhead an initiative to outright ban commercial self-published links not already covered by spam, I will be your vice-president. :-) What I'm concerned about is the possibility of the technicality being used to wrongfully exclude/delete YouTube in general on a technicality.
Cindery 01:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I see your intention, but "agent of" and/or "maintains" can mean someone who publishes and maintains a link at YouTube. Cindery 20:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
There is no absolute prohibition on self-published sources; external links is a subset of sources. Blogs and websites maintained by the subject of an article are usually included in external links of articles about subjects (and who put them there is largely irrelevant). It's not a restriction; it should go under links normally to be avoided. The point should be to help people to understand the useful exceptions for the benefit of Wikipedia; not to compound existing confusion about what to link and what not to link (by failing to make any distinction between useful and unuseful self-published links in favor of erroneously stating that they are prohibited).
Self-published sources (online and paper)
Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.
Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field or a well-known professional journalist. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications. However, exercise caution: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.
Self-published and dubious sources in articles about the author(s)
Material from self-published sources, and other published sources of dubious reliability, may be used as sources in articles about the author(s) of the material, so long as:
Cindery 23:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
User:Calltech and I clearly have quite different interpretations of this guideline, as is becoming evident at VoiceXML. As far as I can tell, we are both being calm about the disagreement—no danger of an edit war—but it is clear that we will not reach consensus, so I thought it would be useful to bring this here.
The external link in question is the link to the home page of the working group within the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) that maintains the VoiceXML standard. I'm linking the working group rather than the standard itself, because there have been several versions of the standard, at least two of them widely used, plus two more that will probably be important within the next year, and I think a link to the group conforms to our intent of providing a relatively high-level link that will lead to other relevant links. I think that this is, for all intents and purposes, the official site of VoiceXML and should be linked. (One of the draft standards is externally linked within the article text; I'm neutral on that, but that is not the dispute we are having.)
CallTech, however, says that the only thing in the external links section the article should be the DMOZ page, and that as for finding the group and other relevant documents "W3C has its own article which is prominently linked (internally) in the first sentence" and, presumably, the W3C article links to the W3C site, in which you could presumably then look up the Voice Browser Working Group. My feeling is that is awfully far removed (navigate an internal link, on that page find an external link, then within that outside site, navigate to the relevant working group) from what I think (from having used this technology) is the single most useful URL for further information.
I am bringing this here because he tells me that there have been recent changes in this guideline and, if I read him correctly, tells me that what I want to do goes against the guideline. Since I don't think it does—in fact, I think that this being, effectively, an official site, the guideline actually encourages linking it—I figured I'd bring the matter here, because if he is right, I am obviously quite out of touch with how this guideline has evolved.
CallTech, if you think I've at all misrepresented your position, my apologies, and please restate it yourself. - Jmabel | Talk 05:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Again, I brought this here hoping to get comment from people who routinely work on external links issues on Calltech's and my disagreement and whether one or the other of us is misunderstanding the guideline. That Paolo would like to go farther away from Calltech's understanding than I would in this case is only barely on topic. I am still hoping to get comment from people who work routinely in this area (external links). - Jmabel | Talk 19:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Just a thought: in broad agreement with what WP:EL already advocates in spirit and letter, we should discourage the use of "external links" sections in articles altogether. We should instead use a term such as "further reading" or "further information", since this is what external links are supposed to provide anyway. The use of "further reading/info" would immediately conscientise the editor into considering whether or not an external link genuinely provides more information for the reader or is just linkspam. Another advantage is that if there is no "external links" section (there being a "further reading" section instead) there is no place to dump drive-by spam. I edit the occasional geographic article where accommodation links are often posted, as well as car articles that attract a proliferation of forum/car modification website links. If the section was titled "further reading" instead it would cut down on well-intentioned but inappropriate external links at the source.
In reality the external links section is actually just further reading/info where said info happens to be web-based. External links are the means, further reading is the end. As I said, the letter and spirit of the EL guideline already makes it clear that this is how external links are to be used, so why not make it clear in the articles themselves? Zun aid © Please rate me at Editor Review! 11:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I've started doing the same thing on the subset of articles I edit. In response to some points raised above: I don't get the Avalon-Hill example. Further reading means "further reading on the article's subject/topic" so I don't see how anyone can justify putting such a link in, and vigilant editors will be justified in removing it. In response to the obscure books concern, at least the title and existence of the book, if not the contents, can be confirmed online, and even if it can't I don't foresee it as a major problem.. I don't think you'll get much "non-link spam" as compared to linkspam, because what's the point if it doesn't give your site a good pagerank?
The problem with "external links" is that it can be taken to mean "list of somewhat-topic-related external links". IMHO "topic-related" is not a strong criterion, and there are well-intentioned editors who add inappropriate links in good faith thinking they are okay. The info has to "add value" to the reader's knowledge of the subject by extending the article, as this guideline already explains in quite some detail. The term "further reading/info" means just that, "find further information on this subject that is not covered (or is not appropriate to cover) in this encyclopedia article" and IMHO is less open to interpretation than "external links". We should discourage the reasoning of "external links for external links' sake", and the first small step to doing so is to name the section appropriately. You won't stop intentional linkspam, but you may stop well-intentioned addition of links to a "list of external links". The term "external links" IMHO is more open-ended than "further reading" as the latter directly indicates that the link has to extend the article, and empowers editors to remove links that are not. And as mentioned above, it is more consistent with what is used in other reference works. Zun aid © Please rate me at Editor Review! 07:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Links to video and photo sharing sites should be avoided, due to lack of verifiability, reliability, and possible copyvios. This is exactly the same case as per blogs and personal pages: do not link. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I would also appreciate if you refrain from deleting the examples given for video and photo sharing sites. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:24, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Can you both please refrain from editing/reverting each others changes, and instead continue discussion here. Thanks/ wangi 20:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Video sharing sites should not be linked to for the reasons widely discussed here: Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research#YouTube_art_as_primary_source and here: Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research#Proposed_amendment ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:37, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Videos and photo-sharing sites are no better than blogs; the contents of them cannot be considered reliable, nor copyright honoring. Jayjg (talk) 22:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Both User:Jossi and User:Wjhonson have attempted to make significant changes to the guideline today without discussion. This page is here for a reason, and almost everything in the guideline has been discussed in-depth and with CONSIDERABLE difficulty
--mmm, that's not really true. Wjohnson is supporting a consensus edit back to the original state EL guideline was in before two weeks ago, and the reversions he made are to my edit/Barberio's--both Barberio and I posted discussion, which jossi ignored: jossi just kept reverting until he was up to 3RR, then he was forced into joining the ongoing discussion.
Also, there wasn't really a lot of discussion about the YouTube-specific language that was added two weeks ago--it was actually railroaded in while the page was protected, on a dubious claim of consensus involving three editors. The fact that it was put there and immediately used by the people who put it there to enforce EL guideline against a specific site should be disturbing to all EL guideline editors. There is no ban on YT; the EL guidleine was just hijacked wrongfully for that purpose. The purpose of EL guideline is to help editors evaluate external links, and when to link; not to enforce a phony ban on a medium a handful of people don't like. Cindery 23:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Whatev, jossi! :-) And remember, "accusations of failure to assume good faith are themselves failures to assume good faith." (I have taken note already at NOR that you appear to switch to ad hom/pretending not to have heard arguments you have heard repeatedly when you're losing on logic, and I won't be sidetracked here, either.) but Warm wishes and Happy Thanksgiving!, Cindery 00:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I suppose that if you can't accept that your edits didn't meet consensus, you could try to recruit people to adjust the numbers to your side--but because reason and logic should ultimately be used to establish the guideline, I have the feeling they will. Wikipedia is not a democracy, etc. There's no logical reason for EL on C to differ from C (but there is an illogical reason, and now that we know what it is, that makes things a lot clearer). Cindery 01:17, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
The absolute restrictions section was added to clear up a problem with the old format guideline. These absolute restrictions were not created as part of this guidelines, but are parts of and results of other policies.
The copyright issue is absolute, it is an almost direct copy of the language in Wikipedia:Copyrights. The blacklist issue is absolute, the blacklist is a technical restriction on certain lists, maintained by the Wikimedia Foundation. The issue of adding links in a conflict of interest is absolute, there have been issues recently where Public Relations companies have attempted to abuse this, and the conclusion was clear that WP:NPOV means you must not edit with this kind of conflict of interests.
All of these are the results of decisions and policy made outside of this guideline, and simply being repeated here. Please do not remove them, or 'merge' them into the rest of the guideline. There are kept separate and noted as absolute restrictions for a good reason. -- Barberio 23:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
RE site you are an agent for or maintain--that's strongly discouraged, but not actually an absolute restriction. Cindery 00:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
A guideline cannot prescribe absolute restrictions on anything. You can refer to existing policies, if you want. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:35, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Re this section: could someone insert an example of the "proper" use of the language code in an external link? I find it much easier to understand an instruction (and less likely to screw it up) if examples are included. Thanks-- RCEberwein | Talk 14:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
scifiscripts.com appears to be a site offering full movie scripts. Their site claims All rights not reserved. and has no copyright notice about the different scripts. I suggest removing every single link pointing to a script. Someone disagrees? -- ReyBrujo 20:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
All links promote a site. Links to the Library of Congree promote their site, links to IMDb promote their site, links to Google books promote their site. "To promote a site" is ridiculously vague and was never the intention. The language must be clarified otherwise all links are in danger of violating "promotion". Wjhonson 02:47, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
What happened to: For policy or technical reasons, editors are restricted from linking to the following, without exception: 3. A website that you own, maintain or are acting as an agent for; even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked to. This is in line with the conflict of interests guidelines. If it is a relevant and informative link that should otherwise be included, mention it on the talk page and let neutral and independent Wikipedia editors decide whether to add it.
I thought this was an excellent guideline which very clearly outlines a good practice to establish a consensus about new links. Why was it removed? -
Rainwarrior
07:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
As these are almost literally a dime a dozen, and in no way verifiable as accurate, true, non-libellous, etc., and in no practical way different from blogs, is there any reason why we should link to them? Would any serious encyclopedia link to them? Jayjg (talk) 22:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I have an issue with the wording of the guideline. In Timpani, I have including a number of links to websites of professional timpanists that offer material that enhances the article (e.g. video clips, especially good FAQs outside the scope of the article, etc.) These are "personal websites", however they are by professional performers. I think it should be noted that links to personal websites are okay if they are reputable and they offer content that enhances the article. (Links to personal websites that offer no educational content should be discouraged.) Many editors have a rather narrow interpretation of these guidelines, and I can see links like these being deleted citing WP:EL. – flamurai ( t) 04:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
JJay, which part of your version of EL would disallow http://www.bushisantichrist.com/ as a link in George W. Bush? Please unequivocally prove that the source is "unreliable". Jayjg (talk) 04:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
A blog is a personal website; a personal website may or may not be a blog. The standard practice on Wikipedia seems to be to avoid linking to such sites, unless, of course, they're by the subject of the article (see for example here). I know that from my own experience, because when I arrived at Wikipedia, the article I spent most of my time on was one where a lot of private websites would have bolstered the side I was on (which I felt was not adequately represented); but I accepted that personal websites were not considered reliable, encyclopaedic sources. Like Jayjg, I can't imagine any serious encyclopaedia linking to them. AnnH ♫ 11:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
...I'm very disturbed by what appears the be the implication that anything not published by NBC is "anonymous" and therefore "unreliable." Notability varies a great deal. Very often--if not always-- one must know or learn something about a subject before one can make judgements about whom is notable/reliable regarding a subject or field of study. To use the Joshua Clover example again, you would have to know something about postmodern American poetry, and about Joshua, to know that Jordan Davis is also a postmodern American poet and a friend/colleague of Joshua's, and therefore a reliable source about postmodern American poetry and Joshua. If you were completely ignorant, you could look at that YT link and say, "not NBC. never heard of the guy, therefore he's anonymous." This is a problem that comes up in AFD a lot, and when people who are ignorant assume that everything which is not on Google is OR (or that everything that's not in the first 100 Google hits is OR. See under: "research is not original research.") It's not humanly possible for an 18 year old (Dmcdevit) and a 20-something guy (JSmith) or for any two people for that matter, to know enough about every article on Wikipedia to judge whom is notable enough on every subject to be sufficiently "un-anonymous." Deleting all the links, putting "anonymous" in the guideline fosters an editorial policy of ignorance; doesn't foster respect for the editorial process, whereby, collectively, with collective knowledge, Wikipedia editors are capable of determining whom is reliable/notable and whom is unreliable/anonymous. Cindery 17:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
A "personal website" is not the same as a "blog" as has been stated. A "personal website" is not the same as a "personal website of a person who is not a professional researcher, journalist, writer". I hope we can keep that firmly in mind. Perhaps we could come up with another name for websites created by researchers, writers and journalists, such as "professional website", but that seems a bit vague. Wjhonson 15:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
WP:EL is a guideline dealing with one of the most difficult and contentious aspects of the encyclopedia. Please do not just attempt to add pet peeves and personal opinions into the guideline. If you feel the guideline should be changed in a substantive way (that is, new new concepts, not just wording clarifications or grammar), please start a discussion here with your reasoning. Please treat your fellow editors and their views with respect, even if you disagree. Please do not just try to arrogantly ram your favored changes into the guideline just because it seems like you can. 2005 00:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Anyone have a problem with this guideline? --- J.S ( t| c) 23:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Before anyone gets hot under the collar (on either side): lets discuss this before we insert anything into the page or remove anything, please. Civility thanks you. :-) This may be a way to unify some of the current requirements, with some thought and perhaps some examples or sub-cases. jesup 00:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
..that is completely unacceptable because, as I pointed out, thousands of films like Alexander Nevsky are legally in the public domain, and one need not be any kind of authority to upload them to a website or to YT and external link them to Wiki. Cindery 17:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
...I am a she. If J would like to re-do the indenting for the entire page here and then on to the rest of Wikipedia, I could care less--it seems a less destructive control-freak project than deleting all the YT links without looking at them.:-) Cindery 22:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Also: you completely don't seem to get it that thouands of films are in the public domain, and the Wiki uploader can be completely anonymous, and that is fine. Cindery 22:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
The lead had this wording: Wikipedia articles can often be improved by providing links to web pages outside Wikipedia which contain information that can't or shouldn't be added to the article. That sentence, added circa Oct 22nd 2006, is in direct contradiction with Wikipedia content policies. Material that could not or should not be added to an article, should not be linked to either. The EL section is part of our encyclopedia and not the dumping ground for material that is not considered valid, useful, or compliant. I have removed the last portion of the sentence to read only ''Wikipedia articles can often be improved by providing links to web pages outside Wikipedia. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
The lead is worded in a way that is inappropriate. The explanation needs to be kept at the "What should be linked to" section and the lead kept simple and formulated in a manner that does not create confusion. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
The concerns raised are valid and should be addressed. While EL section can be a useful addition to an article, it cannot be a dumping ground for crappy stuff unsuitable material that could not make it to the article for being in violation of policy. So, this guideline needs to be worded in such a way that encourages useful links, while discourages crap unsuitable ones. The tension between these two aspects, what to link and what to avoid, needs to be carefully worded as to provide a good understanding that can be easily applied by editors. The guideline's lead in its current state does not reflect the spirit of the guideline and needs to be reworded. As the page is now protected, we could move forward by discussing a new lead. This is my attempt:
Wikipedia articles can often be improved by providing links to web pages outside Wikipedia. A good selection of external links is welcome, but keep it concise: Wikipedia is not a web directory. These links belong in an "External links" section near the bottom of the article, as per our Manual of Style. If the site or page you want to link to includes information that is not yet a part of the article, and that website is a reliable source, consider using it as a source first.
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Cindery 19:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
...I said "Careful wording should not be so specific that it replaces the editorial process"--which seems to be the crux of the matter. Some people would like to make the guideline so specific that it excludes specific problemmatic sites, which have exceptions. Other people--the majority--are saying because there are exceptions, the wording can't specifically exclude them, they should be vetted by editors. A better solution to the problemmatic sites is faster removal under C; not erroneously specific language at EL. Re the lead, I don't think it needs to be changed; "unsuitable" is too vague/extra verbiage; links should be evaluated as "further reading," not as sources. Cindery 22:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I have full protected the guideline. Please discuss before modifying the guideline. This page is visited by thousands of new and established users, and we can't just modify it every other hour. I also ask administrators not to modify the article other than correcting spellings. I thought we had already learned in the last edit war. -- ReyBrujo 02:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree that this is an egregious case of the "wrong version," and that noting that is relevant--there was no consensus for the changes made, and there was consensus to leave them out. Cindery 17:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Confusion about that probably does call for a poll, then, Jossi. Cindery 18:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
![]() | This page is an archive of past discussions. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page. |
Is there any requirement that the external links be in a particular order? Some articles have the links alphabetized, while others seem to be organized based on when they were added. Tkrpata 22:24, 7 November 2006 (UTC)
How welcome are wikitravel links on wikipedia articles?-- 202.164.137.59 15:31, 11 November 2006 (UTC)
My link to youtube.com in a footnote was deleted, apparently because someone posted on WP:EL that "knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States." I was going to challenge the deletion of my footnote by realized that I can't because the WP:EL IS NOT FOOTNOTED and is locked from being edited. Wikipedia cannot base its policy on statements lacking a cited source of information. I work hard to cite all my sources of information and to find one of them deleted because of some un-sourced, over exaggerated, and mostly untrue statement leaves me shaking my head. The source of the WP:EL sentence "knowingly and intentionally directing others to a site that violates copyright has been considered a form of contributory infringement in the United States" citation needed needs to be cited so that I can show you several reasons why this statement is wrong. -- Jreferee 18:02, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
I wonder if we don't need to cover Wikis. For a long time, I gave them a pass without really looking-- they were wikis after all. But if you do look, many of them turn out to be written by one or two editors, and they are frequently linked to when they contain at best a handful of articles. Some also are used essentially as forums. Seems to me many belong in the same category as blogs, forums, et al.
While on the subject, I recently had a run-in with an editor who took "Links to forums, [...] unless mandated by the article itself" to mean "was really really important to some readers of the article". I think what is meant is "the article is actually about the blog/forum/etc. (as stated under Proposed_re-organisation, above, by Bravada, talk - 23:11, 11 October 2006). Can we get agreement on this, and change the policy accordingly? -- Mwanner | Talk 18:21, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
Any objections to replacing the current youtube specific wording with this...
-- Barberio 18:37, 13 November 2006 (UTC)
All,
Antonrojo was very helpful in explaining why an external link that I added was removed from the following topics:
Web conferencing
Streaming media
Webcast
Podcast
I added FindWebEvents.com as a link, hoping that it would extend the encyclopedia and add value to users who were looking for the above topics. FindWebEvents.com is a new search engine which focuses on web events.
I understand that external links should be used sparingly, but added this link hoping it would add value to the overall topics. During the short time the links were included on the above topics, the usage of FindWebEvents.com was fantastic. People were truly looking for specific web events, podcasts, webcasts, etc. coming straight from the Wiki topics. This confirmed to me that users are looking for information on specific topics, and they found value in the search engine to help them find this information more quickly and accurately.
I'd like to ask for everyone's feedback on adding the external link FindWebEvents.com on the above 4 topics.
I truly believe this link adds value and most definitely extends the current Wiki encyclopedia. If I can help answer any questions, please let me know!
Thanks for everyone's time and feedback,
Curtis
Streamlogic 18:43, 14 November 2006 (UTC)
The rewrite of the guideline appears to have reached a level of stability now, so can people please look it over, and make any comments/changes they think are needed. The rewritten guideline itself is at Wikipedia:External links/workshop, and is open for editing.
If you have no changes or objections, can you drop a note here to show you support this as the new guideline. (Alternatively, if you have a major objection to the rewrite not correctable by a simple edit, note it here.) -- Barberio 13:37, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
If a mention of "fansites" is necessary, what would you propose? If the term "fansite" is used, it should be be defined for the purposes of WP policy - is it any unofficial site, or is it a site that maintains a "fan" point of view? Throwing wikis in the list with blogs and forums would be a huge change, and would impact many links - if you want to propose that, I'd make the proposal well known in the many places where wikis are linked. -- Milo H Minderbinder 15:30, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I've just read over it and done some edits, and as it stands now I would support it as the new external links guide. BTW, I removed video sharing sites from links normally to be avoided. See Michael J. Fox for an example. It links to the recent political ad on YouTube. Per the proposed policy this would not be allowed because it is not technically the exact subject of the article, nor an official link. - Mike | Talk 23:36, 15 November 2006 (UTC)
I'd just like to make a personal thank you to all those who involved themselves in the rewrite. Good to see that Co-operative editing does work. -- Barberio 16:21, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Hi everybody, I disagree with #7 "Links to (...) discussion forums" . In Red Digital Cinema Camera Company, we have links to discussion forums where half of the employees of the company (the subject matter) actually spent lots of time on and discusses the future of development and asks the community about the inclusion of certain product features. WP:EL was used by some people as a reason to remove these very valuable links, without actually realizing their importance. I'm removing the "discussion form" part, anybody disagree? Peter S. 13:24, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
This guideline needs to address linking to pages in sister wiki projects like WikiSource, WikiCommons, etc. And throw in WikiTravel while you're at it :) i.e. what templates are useful, what pages should be linked to, should they go at the top of the list or the bottom, etc. Kaldari 01:03, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
In a lot of cases bands or musicians use MySpace either as their primary official site or at least as an important secondary. So why are these links not acceptable? Shouldn't the rule of thumb be that the MySpace/friend networking links are unacceptable unless pertaining to a musical act/band?
Discussion moved from Wikipedia talk:External links/workshop
I added wikis to the forum/blog/etc entry under "Links normally to avoid" on the grounds that wikis are inherently unstable. User:Milo H Minderbinder has objected on the grounds that this is a major change, and asks for a discussion on this page. I feel that since we have been saying for some time that we should avoid any "page that contains factually inaccurate material or unverified original research", and since wikis, especially one-author wikis, are certainly subject to these problems, that this is not truly a change.
The floor is open... -- Mwanner | Talk 00:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
I could see a general Star Trek article, like Star Trek, pointing to the Memory Alpha page in the See also section. But if I were editing a page like, for example, Q (Star Trek), and someone put Memory Alpha in the See also section, I would remove it as only tangentially-related. Rather, I think it's much more useful to do it the way it is done in Q (Star Trek) (and other pages): using the memoryalpha template, which provides a direct external link to the MA page as well as a wikilink to the MA article.
Re: why do we prohibit blogs (and wikis)? The concern, I think, is generally cutting out opinion and unverifiable assertions that aren't helpful to an encyclopedia. Looking at our own proposed guideline here, it says external links can improve the article with "information that can't or shouldn't be added to the article"; also we are to be concerned with accessibility, functionality, and proper-ness ("useful, tasteful, informative, factual, etc.") Finally, looking at "What should be linked to" as it currently stands, I think blogs/wikis/etc. could fall under #4: "Sites with other meaningful, relevant content that is not suitable for inclusion in an article". Obviously, many(/most) blogs would be culled for failing for not being sufficiently useful, tasteful, meaningful, or relevant. The inclusion of the blogs/MySpace/etc. line in the "Links normally to be avoided" section does not function as a ban, it functions as a general rule of thumb. We could take it out of the guideline and it would still be easily defensible to remove inappropriate blog links from articles' external links sections. I would probably prefer removing that line altogether, but I do see that it is a useful rule of thumb. The point is that it's not an all-out prohibition; wikis like Memory Alpha should still be allowed to be linked to because it contains "meaningful, relevant content" and is most likely "neutral and accurate material". Of course, where does the burden lie for proving that it's neutral and accurate? I don't know; there's also discussion at WP:RS, but of course that concerns sources, not external links. Obviously there could arise disputes about what qualifies as neutral/accurate/tasteful/etc. but I think that should be left to the editors to decide.
Sorry that was so long, and I hope it's somewhat coherent; generally, I agree with Barberio, I think it's already covered by the guideline and there's no need to include wikis. But then again, I think it is just as reasonable to remove blogs/MySpaces/etc. too. Schi 23:32, 16 November 2006 (UTC)
Over in video games, it is often useful to link to a wiki related to a game so that users can get information they want that isn't encyclopedic (such as cheat codes, game mission info, mechanics) and often these wikis will link to further fansites which don't warrant being included (but so many people have their own pet fansite they want included which). I very much like the provido against linking to your own site, but a stable wiki is not often available when a game comes out - but a rapidly growing wiki with a lot of information is. I don't think wikipedia is the right place for game walkthroughs, tips, fansite links and cheatcodes, but external wikis are a great place for all of this information to go - releaving some of the pressure here made by users (anon and registered) and increasing the relative usefulness of the wikipedia article. Robovski 04:01, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, sounds like we're close to consensus-- pull blogs out of the MySpace/forum entry and add a new entry covering blogs and wikis? Something like
OK, to keep this from going on forever, I have changed the page as follows: pulled blogs out of the MySpace/forum entry, and added two new lines reading:
Revert or tinker further if you feel you must. Thanks for all the input. -- Mwanner | Talk 15:36, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Hey folks, I was wondering if I could get your feedback on an appropriate upper bound of links for an article to have. Animal rights has a considerable number that seems a touch unnecessary. Is there any policy on reducing the amount of links in an article? -- Brad Beattie (talk) 08:00, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
OK, so now that we've cracked the door open for blogs, can someone provide some insight on how to determine which ones are "written by a recognized authority"? First case I have run into is at Branson, Missouri, a couple of links added to thedailyphosdex.blogdrive.com. I really don't follow blogs at all. TIA, -- Mwanner | Talk 19:06, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
A good reference for this is probably Wikipedia:Reliable sources, which is a good read overall. Specifically check out Evaluating reliability ("Neither online nor print sources deserve an automatic assumption of reliability by virtue of the medium they are printed in. All reports must be evaluated according to the processes and people that created them."), and Self-published sources. Note that since the article is about reliable sources (and external links aren't necessarily used as sources), it doesn't all apply, but I think it's a useful comparison. One distinction I would make with blogs is whether they are self published or published by a newspaper (especially if the bloggers are regular reporters and not someone just doing a blog) [ [3]]. The branson article seemed like pretty blatant off-topic self promotion so I deleted the offending bits. -- Milo H Minderbinder 20:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I noticed that in the section titled: Links normally to be avoided you include:
This is the first time that I can think of where factually inaccurate material has been discussed in such a explicitly negative way in a guideline. While I approve of this statement, I am concerned that it contradicts WP:NPOV... I could also see all sorts of arguments popping up as to whether the facts on a particular link are accurate or not. How does one determine if the facts are inaccurate when there is a dispute? Also note that this is not really discussed at WP:RS (although it should be). Blueboar 19:26, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I think points of view about the September 11 attacks are a bad example. Based on what I heard from someone who visited Egypt, what most people in Western civilisation would consider a "conspiracy theory" is the dominant view in Egypt. I suspect it is also the dominant view in Muslim countries in general. However, I don't know Arabic, so I would probably have trouble proving it. My point is, that area of Wikipedia probably suffers from systemic bias. Armedblowfish ( talk| mail) 00:55, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I might add that on Google Maps, there is a warning (in comments) " ATTENTION! DO NOT ADD LINKS WITHOUT DISCUSSION ON THE TALK PAGE. THEY WILL BE REMOVED." This is enforced, and I think is helpful in keeping the link section in check. If consensus on the talk page says okay, then the link can be added. Harsh as it may sound, this strategy is used on the main September 11, 2001 attacks page and it works. On most pages, such explicit warnings may not be needed, but maybe the guideline needs to mention something about consensus for adding links. After official websites, I think consensus is the next important criteria. -- Aude ( talk) 00:03, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I just wanted to say I think you did a great job on the re-write. The guideline is much clearer, much easier to follow, and better presented. Thank you all for your hard work. -- Siobhan Hansa 20:05, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree. I've been watching the changes and was worried a few times but the guideline is really starting to come together. Nice work.-- I already forgot 03:09, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
Another article I'm currently working on, Gun violence in the United States, I am VERY hesitant to even include ANY external links. Anything pertinent is included as a reference. Once an external links section is added, it's vulnerable to POV linkspam (see Gun politics in the United States#External links). I wonder if including zero links is okay? I'd rather not open a can of worms for links. I can think of one or two "official" government links [4] [5] to include if we must include an External links section. But these also are included in some way or another as references. Thoughts? -- Aude ( talk) 20:22, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
Per this announcement Open Directory Project seems to be having some ongoing technical problems. In light of that, should the recommendation to link to it be removed, at least temporarily? Little Miss Might Be Wrong 23:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)
I see many changes over the last few days, but see no discussion about these changes. I have reverted to previous consensus version. ≈ jossi ≈ t • @ 01:54, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I have reverted three of the last four changes:
Until recently, the section "Links normally to be avoided" included the exception "A site that requires registration or a subscription should not be linked unless it is being used as a source". For clarity on sourcing, should not that exception be carried forward to the new "Sites requiring registration" section? -- CliffC 17:35, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
I saw an interesting Edit summary just now: "rm linkspam, sites solicit financial contributions" (at Arctic Refuge drilling controversy). I'm kind of sympathetic-- I see lots of links added to pages that, among other things, seek contributions. Generally I just judge the site on the usefulness of its content, ignoring the funds pitch (though if the site is borderline useful, I tend to count the pitch against it).
Of course, one could look at fundraising on a site as the equivalent of direct retail sales, the major red flag for me. So, should we mention fundraising? If so, as a major bar to inclusion, or a minor one? -- Mwanner | Talk 21:36, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
At the University of Mary Washington article, Analyzethis ( talk · contribs) insists on adding a link to a website he runs [6]. Several other users keep removing this as linkspam but he keeps adding the link back, insisting it's vital to the UMW community. Can we have an outside view on this conflict? Metros232 20:58, 18 November 2006 (UTC)
What is the purpose of including external links? I don't see anything in the policy explaining why external links should be included at all. I mean... it's kind of obvious, but I thought that stating the purpose could decrease the edit wars. - Freekee 20:18, 19 November 2006 (UTC)
I discovered a great website/portal about all things African (knowingafrica.com) that I wanted to add to the Africa, but after adding it today, it has subsequently been removed. I would like to understand this better and challenge the rationale for having it removed. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.65.55.223 ( talk • contribs) 03:25, November 20, 2006
I am just bringing to everyone's attention that there is a citation in the policy, but there is no instance of <references/>. A footnotes section should probably be added (or the citation removed). – Heav e n's Wrath Talk 05:41, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I was looking at the text which begins "A website that you own or maintain, even if the guidelines otherwise...". I can see a problem with this. This is all very well for the small site where someone wants to promote it. But how about, for example, a big company which has a tie-in cross product web site: official but secondary, relating to perhaps dozens of articles. They can post this and the person can say "I don't own or maintain this site. I don't even work for the company that made the products, nor the one that created the site: I work for the marketing company they hired". I'd like to suggest an investigation of whether this form of words could be made more all-inclusive; or indeed whether adding such links is a valuable service to Wikipedia readers and shouldn't be stopped; or whether existing policies are adequate. Notinasnaid 11:05, 20 November 2006 (UTC)
I would like more information about this policy. Most websites these days include a blog component, as it's the thing to do. However, does that mean that a website that includes a blog IS a blog for the purposes of this policy? In other words, say you have a content management website with longer articles and also some blog entries. Is this automatically exluded because of the blog component? Some article editors seem to think so.
I need to verify some further clarification here. From what I have read in EL, RS, and V, nothing has changed about self-published sources (such as blog posts) being acceptable as primary sources for statements made by the subject of the article, as long as authorship is not in dispute. Several other editors seem to be under the impression that this single exception to "no self-published sources" has also been thrown out. Can someone please clarify that this particular exception to the rule is still in effect? Crockspot 21:58, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
It's been my understanding for a while that we don't link to websites of song lyrics because they keep those lyrics posted in violation of copyright. I don't see anything in this guideline that directly addresses this question, so I thought I'd ask here. Is it legit to link to lyrics sites, such as Beatles Music Lyrics? - GTBacchus( talk) 19:42, 21 November 2006 (UTC)
But Rey, no one, not me, not any living person whatsoever... is stating that we should use sites which can be shown to be in violation. The objection is the assumption that a site is in violation, simply because they are silent on the issue. Your example is not this case, it's a red herring to misdirect the argument. If web content does not explicitely mention, or hyper-mention that there's a copyright issue, then assuming there is one, is not the position that wikieditors should take. Rather we should assume there isn't one, until there is evidence that there is one. Wjhonson 18:29, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
Further reading redirects to here. An invitation to further reading of a physical book isn't an external link. Last time I read these MoS entries there was a distinction made between the two, and the consensus at the time was to have external links and other media in a section called "Further reading". Has this policy been reverted or was I reading another contradictory policy elsewhere? -- Monotonehell 06:04, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
There is no absolute prohibition in linking to sites you maintain, etc.--WP:V clearly delineates the self-publishing exceptions. WP:EL is a guideline, and as a guideline should not contradict policy. If you want to go into detail on discouraging self-publishing external links, that should go in "links normally to avoid." Cindery 22:09, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
I couldn't agree more that self-published links should almost always be avoided, and that strong encouragement to avoid them should be in EL guideline. But, they aren't actually prohibited, and there are some very good exceptions--and stating that they are affects...YouTube. For example, the primary way for a YT self-publisher to affirm GDFL and copyright permission is to publish the link him or herself on Wiki. Instead of going into detail re YouTube, it would be better to move self-published links from restrictions to "links normally to be avoided." Any self-published link of any variety can be objected to by any editor under WP:AUTO and COI, as well as all other policies and guidelines. If you want to spearhead an initiative to outright ban commercial self-published links not already covered by spam, I will be your vice-president. :-) What I'm concerned about is the possibility of the technicality being used to wrongfully exclude/delete YouTube in general on a technicality.
Cindery 01:29, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Yes, I see your intention, but "agent of" and/or "maintains" can mean someone who publishes and maintains a link at YouTube. Cindery 20:18, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
There is no absolute prohibition on self-published sources; external links is a subset of sources. Blogs and websites maintained by the subject of an article are usually included in external links of articles about subjects (and who put them there is largely irrelevant). It's not a restriction; it should go under links normally to be avoided. The point should be to help people to understand the useful exceptions for the benefit of Wikipedia; not to compound existing confusion about what to link and what not to link (by failing to make any distinction between useful and unuseful self-published links in favor of erroneously stating that they are prohibited).
Self-published sources (online and paper)
Anyone can create a website or pay to have a book published, then claim to be an expert in a certain field. For that reason, self-published books, personal websites, and blogs are largely not acceptable as sources.
Self-published material may be acceptable when produced by a well-known, professional researcher in a relevant field or a well-known professional journalist. These may be acceptable so long as their work has been previously published by reliable third-party publications. However, exercise caution: if the information in question is really worth reporting, someone else is likely to have done so.
Self-published and dubious sources in articles about the author(s)
Material from self-published sources, and other published sources of dubious reliability, may be used as sources in articles about the author(s) of the material, so long as:
Cindery 23:43, 22 November 2006 (UTC)
User:Calltech and I clearly have quite different interpretations of this guideline, as is becoming evident at VoiceXML. As far as I can tell, we are both being calm about the disagreement—no danger of an edit war—but it is clear that we will not reach consensus, so I thought it would be useful to bring this here.
The external link in question is the link to the home page of the working group within the World Wide Web Consortium (W3C) that maintains the VoiceXML standard. I'm linking the working group rather than the standard itself, because there have been several versions of the standard, at least two of them widely used, plus two more that will probably be important within the next year, and I think a link to the group conforms to our intent of providing a relatively high-level link that will lead to other relevant links. I think that this is, for all intents and purposes, the official site of VoiceXML and should be linked. (One of the draft standards is externally linked within the article text; I'm neutral on that, but that is not the dispute we are having.)
CallTech, however, says that the only thing in the external links section the article should be the DMOZ page, and that as for finding the group and other relevant documents "W3C has its own article which is prominently linked (internally) in the first sentence" and, presumably, the W3C article links to the W3C site, in which you could presumably then look up the Voice Browser Working Group. My feeling is that is awfully far removed (navigate an internal link, on that page find an external link, then within that outside site, navigate to the relevant working group) from what I think (from having used this technology) is the single most useful URL for further information.
I am bringing this here because he tells me that there have been recent changes in this guideline and, if I read him correctly, tells me that what I want to do goes against the guideline. Since I don't think it does—in fact, I think that this being, effectively, an official site, the guideline actually encourages linking it—I figured I'd bring the matter here, because if he is right, I am obviously quite out of touch with how this guideline has evolved.
CallTech, if you think I've at all misrepresented your position, my apologies, and please restate it yourself. - Jmabel | Talk 05:07, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Again, I brought this here hoping to get comment from people who routinely work on external links issues on Calltech's and my disagreement and whether one or the other of us is misunderstanding the guideline. That Paolo would like to go farther away from Calltech's understanding than I would in this case is only barely on topic. I am still hoping to get comment from people who work routinely in this area (external links). - Jmabel | Talk 19:01, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Just a thought: in broad agreement with what WP:EL already advocates in spirit and letter, we should discourage the use of "external links" sections in articles altogether. We should instead use a term such as "further reading" or "further information", since this is what external links are supposed to provide anyway. The use of "further reading/info" would immediately conscientise the editor into considering whether or not an external link genuinely provides more information for the reader or is just linkspam. Another advantage is that if there is no "external links" section (there being a "further reading" section instead) there is no place to dump drive-by spam. I edit the occasional geographic article where accommodation links are often posted, as well as car articles that attract a proliferation of forum/car modification website links. If the section was titled "further reading" instead it would cut down on well-intentioned but inappropriate external links at the source.
In reality the external links section is actually just further reading/info where said info happens to be web-based. External links are the means, further reading is the end. As I said, the letter and spirit of the EL guideline already makes it clear that this is how external links are to be used, so why not make it clear in the articles themselves? Zun aid © Please rate me at Editor Review! 11:20, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I've started doing the same thing on the subset of articles I edit. In response to some points raised above: I don't get the Avalon-Hill example. Further reading means "further reading on the article's subject/topic" so I don't see how anyone can justify putting such a link in, and vigilant editors will be justified in removing it. In response to the obscure books concern, at least the title and existence of the book, if not the contents, can be confirmed online, and even if it can't I don't foresee it as a major problem.. I don't think you'll get much "non-link spam" as compared to linkspam, because what's the point if it doesn't give your site a good pagerank?
The problem with "external links" is that it can be taken to mean "list of somewhat-topic-related external links". IMHO "topic-related" is not a strong criterion, and there are well-intentioned editors who add inappropriate links in good faith thinking they are okay. The info has to "add value" to the reader's knowledge of the subject by extending the article, as this guideline already explains in quite some detail. The term "further reading/info" means just that, "find further information on this subject that is not covered (or is not appropriate to cover) in this encyclopedia article" and IMHO is less open to interpretation than "external links". We should discourage the reasoning of "external links for external links' sake", and the first small step to doing so is to name the section appropriately. You won't stop intentional linkspam, but you may stop well-intentioned addition of links to a "list of external links". The term "external links" IMHO is more open-ended than "further reading" as the latter directly indicates that the link has to extend the article, and empowers editors to remove links that are not. And as mentioned above, it is more consistent with what is used in other reference works. Zun aid © Please rate me at Editor Review! 07:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Links to video and photo sharing sites should be avoided, due to lack of verifiability, reliability, and possible copyvios. This is exactly the same case as per blogs and personal pages: do not link. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 19:32, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
I would also appreciate if you refrain from deleting the examples given for video and photo sharing sites. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:24, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Can you both please refrain from editing/reverting each others changes, and instead continue discussion here. Thanks/ wangi 20:34, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Video sharing sites should not be linked to for the reasons widely discussed here: Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research#YouTube_art_as_primary_source and here: Wikipedia_talk:No_original_research#Proposed_amendment ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 20:37, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Videos and photo-sharing sites are no better than blogs; the contents of them cannot be considered reliable, nor copyright honoring. Jayjg (talk) 22:17, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Both User:Jossi and User:Wjhonson have attempted to make significant changes to the guideline today without discussion. This page is here for a reason, and almost everything in the guideline has been discussed in-depth and with CONSIDERABLE difficulty
--mmm, that's not really true. Wjohnson is supporting a consensus edit back to the original state EL guideline was in before two weeks ago, and the reversions he made are to my edit/Barberio's--both Barberio and I posted discussion, which jossi ignored: jossi just kept reverting until he was up to 3RR, then he was forced into joining the ongoing discussion.
Also, there wasn't really a lot of discussion about the YouTube-specific language that was added two weeks ago--it was actually railroaded in while the page was protected, on a dubious claim of consensus involving three editors. The fact that it was put there and immediately used by the people who put it there to enforce EL guideline against a specific site should be disturbing to all EL guideline editors. There is no ban on YT; the EL guidleine was just hijacked wrongfully for that purpose. The purpose of EL guideline is to help editors evaluate external links, and when to link; not to enforce a phony ban on a medium a handful of people don't like. Cindery 23:12, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
Whatev, jossi! :-) And remember, "accusations of failure to assume good faith are themselves failures to assume good faith." (I have taken note already at NOR that you appear to switch to ad hom/pretending not to have heard arguments you have heard repeatedly when you're losing on logic, and I won't be sidetracked here, either.) but Warm wishes and Happy Thanksgiving!, Cindery 00:52, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
I suppose that if you can't accept that your edits didn't meet consensus, you could try to recruit people to adjust the numbers to your side--but because reason and logic should ultimately be used to establish the guideline, I have the feeling they will. Wikipedia is not a democracy, etc. There's no logical reason for EL on C to differ from C (but there is an illogical reason, and now that we know what it is, that makes things a lot clearer). Cindery 01:17, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
The absolute restrictions section was added to clear up a problem with the old format guideline. These absolute restrictions were not created as part of this guidelines, but are parts of and results of other policies.
The copyright issue is absolute, it is an almost direct copy of the language in Wikipedia:Copyrights. The blacklist issue is absolute, the blacklist is a technical restriction on certain lists, maintained by the Wikimedia Foundation. The issue of adding links in a conflict of interest is absolute, there have been issues recently where Public Relations companies have attempted to abuse this, and the conclusion was clear that WP:NPOV means you must not edit with this kind of conflict of interests.
All of these are the results of decisions and policy made outside of this guideline, and simply being repeated here. Please do not remove them, or 'merge' them into the rest of the guideline. There are kept separate and noted as absolute restrictions for a good reason. -- Barberio 23:48, 23 November 2006 (UTC)
RE site you are an agent for or maintain--that's strongly discouraged, but not actually an absolute restriction. Cindery 00:28, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
A guideline cannot prescribe absolute restrictions on anything. You can refer to existing policies, if you want. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 00:35, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
Re this section: could someone insert an example of the "proper" use of the language code in an external link? I find it much easier to understand an instruction (and less likely to screw it up) if examples are included. Thanks-- RCEberwein | Talk 14:20, 24 November 2006 (UTC)
scifiscripts.com appears to be a site offering full movie scripts. Their site claims All rights not reserved. and has no copyright notice about the different scripts. I suggest removing every single link pointing to a script. Someone disagrees? -- ReyBrujo 20:49, 25 November 2006 (UTC)
All links promote a site. Links to the Library of Congree promote their site, links to IMDb promote their site, links to Google books promote their site. "To promote a site" is ridiculously vague and was never the intention. The language must be clarified otherwise all links are in danger of violating "promotion". Wjhonson 02:47, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
What happened to: For policy or technical reasons, editors are restricted from linking to the following, without exception: 3. A website that you own, maintain or are acting as an agent for; even if the guidelines otherwise imply that it should be linked to. This is in line with the conflict of interests guidelines. If it is a relevant and informative link that should otherwise be included, mention it on the talk page and let neutral and independent Wikipedia editors decide whether to add it.
I thought this was an excellent guideline which very clearly outlines a good practice to establish a consensus about new links. Why was it removed? -
Rainwarrior
07:43, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
As these are almost literally a dime a dozen, and in no way verifiable as accurate, true, non-libellous, etc., and in no practical way different from blogs, is there any reason why we should link to them? Would any serious encyclopedia link to them? Jayjg (talk) 22:21, 26 November 2006 (UTC)
I have an issue with the wording of the guideline. In Timpani, I have including a number of links to websites of professional timpanists that offer material that enhances the article (e.g. video clips, especially good FAQs outside the scope of the article, etc.) These are "personal websites", however they are by professional performers. I think it should be noted that links to personal websites are okay if they are reputable and they offer content that enhances the article. (Links to personal websites that offer no educational content should be discouraged.) Many editors have a rather narrow interpretation of these guidelines, and I can see links like these being deleted citing WP:EL. – flamurai ( t) 04:15, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
JJay, which part of your version of EL would disallow http://www.bushisantichrist.com/ as a link in George W. Bush? Please unequivocally prove that the source is "unreliable". Jayjg (talk) 04:24, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
A blog is a personal website; a personal website may or may not be a blog. The standard practice on Wikipedia seems to be to avoid linking to such sites, unless, of course, they're by the subject of the article (see for example here). I know that from my own experience, because when I arrived at Wikipedia, the article I spent most of my time on was one where a lot of private websites would have bolstered the side I was on (which I felt was not adequately represented); but I accepted that personal websites were not considered reliable, encyclopaedic sources. Like Jayjg, I can't imagine any serious encyclopaedia linking to them. AnnH ♫ 11:30, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
...I'm very disturbed by what appears the be the implication that anything not published by NBC is "anonymous" and therefore "unreliable." Notability varies a great deal. Very often--if not always-- one must know or learn something about a subject before one can make judgements about whom is notable/reliable regarding a subject or field of study. To use the Joshua Clover example again, you would have to know something about postmodern American poetry, and about Joshua, to know that Jordan Davis is also a postmodern American poet and a friend/colleague of Joshua's, and therefore a reliable source about postmodern American poetry and Joshua. If you were completely ignorant, you could look at that YT link and say, "not NBC. never heard of the guy, therefore he's anonymous." This is a problem that comes up in AFD a lot, and when people who are ignorant assume that everything which is not on Google is OR (or that everything that's not in the first 100 Google hits is OR. See under: "research is not original research.") It's not humanly possible for an 18 year old (Dmcdevit) and a 20-something guy (JSmith) or for any two people for that matter, to know enough about every article on Wikipedia to judge whom is notable enough on every subject to be sufficiently "un-anonymous." Deleting all the links, putting "anonymous" in the guideline fosters an editorial policy of ignorance; doesn't foster respect for the editorial process, whereby, collectively, with collective knowledge, Wikipedia editors are capable of determining whom is reliable/notable and whom is unreliable/anonymous. Cindery 17:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
A "personal website" is not the same as a "blog" as has been stated. A "personal website" is not the same as a "personal website of a person who is not a professional researcher, journalist, writer". I hope we can keep that firmly in mind. Perhaps we could come up with another name for websites created by researchers, writers and journalists, such as "professional website", but that seems a bit vague. Wjhonson 15:57, 29 November 2006 (UTC)
WP:EL is a guideline dealing with one of the most difficult and contentious aspects of the encyclopedia. Please do not just attempt to add pet peeves and personal opinions into the guideline. If you feel the guideline should be changed in a substantive way (that is, new new concepts, not just wording clarifications or grammar), please start a discussion here with your reasoning. Please treat your fellow editors and their views with respect, even if you disagree. Please do not just try to arrogantly ram your favored changes into the guideline just because it seems like you can. 2005 00:05, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Anyone have a problem with this guideline? --- J.S ( t| c) 23:42, 27 November 2006 (UTC)
Before anyone gets hot under the collar (on either side): lets discuss this before we insert anything into the page or remove anything, please. Civility thanks you. :-) This may be a way to unify some of the current requirements, with some thought and perhaps some examples or sub-cases. jesup 00:08, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
..that is completely unacceptable because, as I pointed out, thousands of films like Alexander Nevsky are legally in the public domain, and one need not be any kind of authority to upload them to a website or to YT and external link them to Wiki. Cindery 17:50, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
...I am a she. If J would like to re-do the indenting for the entire page here and then on to the rest of Wikipedia, I could care less--it seems a less destructive control-freak project than deleting all the YT links without looking at them.:-) Cindery 22:39, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Also: you completely don't seem to get it that thouands of films are in the public domain, and the Wiki uploader can be completely anonymous, and that is fine. Cindery 22:41, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
The lead had this wording: Wikipedia articles can often be improved by providing links to web pages outside Wikipedia which contain information that can't or shouldn't be added to the article. That sentence, added circa Oct 22nd 2006, is in direct contradiction with Wikipedia content policies. Material that could not or should not be added to an article, should not be linked to either. The EL section is part of our encyclopedia and not the dumping ground for material that is not considered valid, useful, or compliant. I have removed the last portion of the sentence to read only ''Wikipedia articles can often be improved by providing links to web pages outside Wikipedia. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 01:15, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
The lead is worded in a way that is inappropriate. The explanation needs to be kept at the "What should be linked to" section and the lead kept simple and formulated in a manner that does not create confusion. ≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 06:05, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
The concerns raised are valid and should be addressed. While EL section can be a useful addition to an article, it cannot be a dumping ground for crappy stuff unsuitable material that could not make it to the article for being in violation of policy. So, this guideline needs to be worded in such a way that encourages useful links, while discourages crap unsuitable ones. The tension between these two aspects, what to link and what to avoid, needs to be carefully worded as to provide a good understanding that can be easily applied by editors. The guideline's lead in its current state does not reflect the spirit of the guideline and needs to be reworded. As the page is now protected, we could move forward by discussing a new lead. This is my attempt:
Wikipedia articles can often be improved by providing links to web pages outside Wikipedia. A good selection of external links is welcome, but keep it concise: Wikipedia is not a web directory. These links belong in an "External links" section near the bottom of the article, as per our Manual of Style. If the site or page you want to link to includes information that is not yet a part of the article, and that website is a reliable source, consider using it as a source first.
≈ jossi ≈ (talk) 18:11, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Cindery 19:45, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
...I said "Careful wording should not be so specific that it replaces the editorial process"--which seems to be the crux of the matter. Some people would like to make the guideline so specific that it excludes specific problemmatic sites, which have exceptions. Other people--the majority--are saying because there are exceptions, the wording can't specifically exclude them, they should be vetted by editors. A better solution to the problemmatic sites is faster removal under C; not erroneously specific language at EL. Re the lead, I don't think it needs to be changed; "unsuitable" is too vague/extra verbiage; links should be evaluated as "further reading," not as sources. Cindery 22:27, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I have full protected the guideline. Please discuss before modifying the guideline. This page is visited by thousands of new and established users, and we can't just modify it every other hour. I also ask administrators not to modify the article other than correcting spellings. I thought we had already learned in the last edit war. -- ReyBrujo 02:20, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
I agree that this is an egregious case of the "wrong version," and that noting that is relevant--there was no consensus for the changes made, and there was consensus to leave them out. Cindery 17:54, 28 November 2006 (UTC)
Confusion about that probably does call for a poll, then, Jossi. Cindery 18:00, 28 November 2006 (UTC)